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#954687 - 12/09/12 10:17 AM My Winter Build Cam, What do you think
stevec_87SS Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Newtown, PA
Hello All and Happy Holidays,

Well I am building a Frankenstein 350 over the winter for my Monte. I am building a street machine not a track car. I like to drive with some power under the hood. My 305 I built two years ago has served me well but since I will no longer be subject to certain smog laws after this inspection I am now taking it a bit bigger. I am going to perform the computer delete too. I picked up a set of 062 Vortec's yesterday at a yard and now I am trying to pick a decent street cam that wont require head work to install bigger springs or open up the push rod openings of the heads. I am going to use the Z-28 springs. Here is what I am thinking about dropping in:

Its a Howard's Cam
Application Hot Street, 4bbl & Headers Recommended

Lift with 1.5 Rockers .449/.449

Duration in Degrees

Lobe Separation 108 degrees

Valve Lash In .000 EX .000

Advertised IN 290 EX 290

@.050" IN 224 EX 224


As always I appreciate your feedback and support folks. I love that we can sound things off each other. I know I can go bigger if I really want to make this a monster but that is not my intent at all. I am trying to get to just over 300 BHP. eBay Howards Cam Link
_________________________
Steve Callaghan - Black & Saddle 87 Monte Carlo SS with T-Tops, 350, Vortec Heads, Scat rods, Cast pistons, Shortie headers, crowed cam and lifters, edelbrock intake, roller tip rockers, Z28 springs, Edelbrock Performer carb, serpentine system
smcallaghan@outlook.com

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#954982 - 12/11/12 03:45 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: stevec_87SS]
BuzzLOL Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 5510
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
.. That looks almost like a 1960's cam design... a poor copy of Chevy's old 350HP 350" 224/224 cam... I would suggest a more modern design with less intake duration and more lift... for the same HP, yet more low - mid RPM torque, better drivability, cleaner burning, and more MPG... such as even a Summit #1103 214/224 cam... or similar Howard's design... most cam companies sell a similar grind nowadays... or an even more modern design for more money...

http://www.ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos11.html (scroll down to Combo #83 for dyno results of a 350" engine with 214/224 cam and Vortec heads (his valve lift numbers are wrong))
_________________________
'86 Monte LS (total'd Fall '2013), '87 GTA TransAm TPI350 TH700-R4, '85 Fiero 5-speed, '75 MG Midget Buick Alum.V8 BW 5-speed manual, '77 Pontiac Astre Formula wagon 5-speed posi, '78 F150 4WD 351"M ==> 400" C6, '79 Caddy Seville Olds EFI 350" TH400, 19' Slickcraft 425HP 351W MerCruiser I/O

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#954990 - 12/11/12 04:15 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: BuzzLOL]
200kSS Offline
10+ Year
Member

Registered: 07/02/00
Posts: 2509
Loc: Southeast Missouri
What pistons are used in that combo 83 to yield 10.6:1 compression ratio?

I too would add some more lift on the cam, maybe run it as-is then switch to 1.6 rockers in the future?
_________________________
88 SS black/maroon. Trophy case is full...time to DRIVE it.
80 Malibu 2dr, 406/TH350/GN 8.5 rear. MPG=low. Smiles per mile=HIGH.

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#955000 - 12/11/12 05:36 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: 200kSS]
MY FYN 79 Offline
Moderator
10+ Year

Member

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 9761
Loc: N/E WI
I would suggest something else for a cam also. Thats an old school somewhat large duration single pattern cam on a 108 LSA.

I know you mentioned sticking with the flat tappet cam, but I would really suggest simply drilling and tapping the pedestals in the lifter valley and running factory roller stuff. I've done it to a couple assembled engines already and its a piece of cake. I'd bet several members here have all the parts to convert.

300 HP is no problem with Vortec heads. It wouldnt take much of a cam for that.
_________________________
~Jeremy~
79 Monte - Sold 5-11-13
Welcome Natalee Mae 3-16-12

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#955001 - 12/11/12 05:53 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: 200kSS]
sg5492 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 390
Loc: Leavenworth,Kansas
I agree with BuzzLOL that's a poor copy of a 1960's cam.

If it was me I would look for a cam with at least .465 lift (1.5 Rockers).

Like I said in a different topic on cams, if I was looking for a camshaft I would call the techs at Crower,Comp,Crane,Lunati and whatever other cam companies I could find. Tell them your engine info and what your looking to do with your car and they can tell you what cam will work the best for your application.

I always call more than one place so I can compare notes on each cam. I also do the same thing when I'm looking to buy a torque converter.
_________________________
87 Monte Carlo SS (original owner) Pro Street, 388SBC, 400 Turbo Manual Valve Body w/trans brake 4,500 Converter, 4 link

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#955202 - 12/13/12 01:58 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: sg5492]
stevec_87SS Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Newtown, PA
Thanks Guys for all the great advice. I did call Comp Cams and Crower and they both pushed me towards going roller. I was trying to perform a budget build to some extent but spending the extra hundo's will get me a smoother better performing engine.

With the vortec heads you cant go over .450 lift with 1.5's without drilling out the push rod holes and that is something I want to stay away from. Plus, this needs to be a very street-able car. I know, the go big or go home mantra but in this case slightly smaller makes more sense for what I am trying to achieve.

Happy Holidays Dudes!
_________________________
Steve Callaghan - Black & Saddle 87 Monte Carlo SS with T-Tops, 350, Vortec Heads, Scat rods, Cast pistons, Shortie headers, crowed cam and lifters, edelbrock intake, roller tip rockers, Z28 springs, Edelbrock Performer carb, serpentine system
smcallaghan@outlook.com

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#955207 - 12/13/12 02:17 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: stevec_87SS]
MAP Offline
10+ Year
Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: Yuma, AZ
Hi Stevec,

I like rollers for two reasons: a few less hp less frictional power loss inside the motor, and practically no worries about cam break-in. As to the theoretical limits of lobe velocity and acceleration on a flat-faced tappet versus roller, the differences mean zip until the cam has very aggressive ramps. Such aggressiveness won't likely be encountered on anything like a street cam.

So, for the benefits I mentioned for a roller, if you look at the cost for the upgrade, few others offer so little for so much. They do, however, make some nice coin for the vendor.

For the level of budget you're considering, I'd spend my money elsewhere in the motor.

Best,
MAP


Edited by MAP (12/13/12 02:21 PM)

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#955213 - 12/13/12 03:27 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: MAP]
carloss Offline
Member

Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 995
Loc: Burnaby, BC
Why are you reluctant to drill out the pushrod holes? I did mine and it took maybe 30 minutes. Just wondering if there was a reason not to do it and maybe I messed something up by doing so.

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#955214 - 12/13/12 03:56 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: MAP]
sg5492 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 390
Loc: Leavenworth,Kansas
I don't know a lot about Vortec heads so when you say you can't run a cam with over .450 lift with 1.5's without drilling out the push rod holes. Are you talking about drilling and putting pins in the rocker studs?

I know it's bigger than what your wanting to go with but I have this cam in our 72 Chevelle and we drive it all the time in the summer. It's just big enough to make it sound mean.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=79&sb=2

I do have a roller cam in my Monte but it's very aggressive.
_________________________
87 Monte Carlo SS (original owner) Pro Street, 388SBC, 400 Turbo Manual Valve Body w/trans brake 4,500 Converter, 4 link

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#955215 - 12/13/12 04:00 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: sg5492]
carloss Offline
Member

Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 995
Loc: Burnaby, BC
I just used a 1/2 bit and enlarged the pushrod holes for more clearance.

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#955216 - 12/13/12 04:07 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: carloss]
sg5492 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 390
Loc: Leavenworth,Kansas
I understand now smile
_________________________
87 Monte Carlo SS (original owner) Pro Street, 388SBC, 400 Turbo Manual Valve Body w/trans brake 4,500 Converter, 4 link

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#955217 - 12/13/12 04:08 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: carloss]
carloss Offline
Member

Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 995
Loc: Burnaby, BC
I think with the Comp-Cams 981-16 springs and enlarged pushrod holes you can run up to .480 lift with no other modifications. At least I hope so. That's what I'm running but haven't installed yet. I have the comp cams 12-238-2 with 1.6 to rockers and those springs. Machine shop said I'd be fine with that combo without additional machine work on heads.


Edited by carloss (12/13/12 04:12 PM)

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#955219 - 12/13/12 04:32 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: carloss]
sg5492 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 390
Loc: Leavenworth,Kansas
That's a nice daily driver cam, I think this is the link to the cam card...

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=85&sb=2
_________________________
87 Monte Carlo SS (original owner) Pro Street, 388SBC, 400 Turbo Manual Valve Body w/trans brake 4,500 Converter, 4 link

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#955246 - 12/13/12 08:25 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: sg5492]
stevec_87SS Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Newtown, PA
Hi Guys,

here is what I ended up purchasing today;
Displacement: 350 cu. in.
Carburetor: Edelbrock Performer 800 CFM
Heads: GM L31 Vortecs 062 heads
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM Vortec
Camshaft: Crowler Cam with 214/224 of duration @ 0.050 in. of lift and 0.474/0.498 in. of lift.(Corrected valve lift with 1.6:1 rockers is 0.503/0.529 in.)
Rockers: roller tip, 1.6:1
Headers: TES Headers
Pistons: ??? Still figuring this out
Rods: Stock
Crank: GM Performance
Distributor: HEI 65,000 Volt
Comp. Ratio: 9.5:1 (Estimate based on heads and stock pistons)
MAX HP: 350 @ 5400
MAX Torque: 400 @ 4300

I am going to drill out the push rod holes. I watched a video on it and my dad is a machinist, its just my fear of screwing up a perfectly good set of heads that stops me from going forward. Keep in mind I am not a spring chicken here. We middle age guys who actually build, not buy prebuilt, also have a mortgage and kids tuition so money is a factor.

I so appreciate the feedback, advice and support. I almost pulled the trigger on a roller cam but I just could not suck up the over $600 in parts I needed to make it work. I am doing the computer delete with this and I still need to get spring, valve guilde, seals all of the bearings and rings along with the complete gasket set and the dress up parts and oh yea a water pump. Got it make it right and make it tight..

Marry and Happy everyone,
Steve
_________________________
Steve Callaghan - Black & Saddle 87 Monte Carlo SS with T-Tops, 350, Vortec Heads, Scat rods, Cast pistons, Shortie headers, crowed cam and lifters, edelbrock intake, roller tip rockers, Z28 springs, Edelbrock Performer carb, serpentine system
smcallaghan@outlook.com

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#955249 - 12/13/12 08:49 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: stevec_87SS]
MY FYN 79 Offline
Moderator
10+ Year

Member

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 9761
Loc: N/E WI
Steve, good luck with the build.

You have a factory roller block, so what parts would have costed you so much? You should easily be able to buy all the parts (lifters, spider, dog bones, etc) for $100.00. You need a timing set any ways and whatever cost for a cam.

Also, why are you ditching the CCC?
_________________________
~Jeremy~
79 Monte - Sold 5-11-13
Welcome Natalee Mae 3-16-12

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#955250 - 12/13/12 08:57 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: stevec_87SS]
MAP Offline
10+ Year
Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: Yuma, AZ
Hi Stevec,

I think your shopping list is a very good one.

About enlarging the pushrod holes: the best way is with a milling machine. The second best way is with a drill press.

There is yet another option which might be the best of all: do it by hand with a round file. The disadvantage is that it's slow work, and depending on the height of each pushrod relief bore, it can be either just slow, or very, very slow. But, the advantage is that it gives you the best control over messing things up. When you're increasing lift and you need more pushrod clearance, the direction where you need relief is transverse to the block, and toward the outboard sides of the block (that is, with increased lift, the pushrod draws up closer to the valve spring on the base circle and max lift extremes.) So, if you have the intake face of the head facing you, the direction of needed increased relief is away from you. This would avoid any need to get closer to the intake ports. The only real danger of damaging the heads is if you break into an intake port, and even then, all is not lost.

Hi MY FYN: Did I miss something here? Stevec, do you have a factory roller block? Or, is the Vortec reference just for the heads? Thx.

Best,
MAP


Edited by MAP (12/13/12 09:13 PM)

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#955255 - 12/13/12 09:27 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: stevec_87SS]
BuzzLOL Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 5510
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
Originally Posted By: stevec_87SS
Heads: GM L31 Vortecs 062 heads
Camshaft: Crowler Cam with 214/224 of duration @ 0.050 in. of lift and 0.474/0.498 in. of lift.(Corrected valve lift with 1.6:1 rockers is 0.503/0.529 in.)
Rockers: roller tip, 1.6:1
I am going to drill out the push rod holes. I watched a video on it and my dad is a machinist


.. Are you sure about those lift numbers? .474"/.498" looks like 1.6:1 rockers are already figured in.

.. .498" lift or higher will prolly also require machining down the tops of the valve guides as well to prevent the retainers from hitting the valve seals. Home use tools are available to do this common mod. Vortec heads can usually handle about .460" - .480" lift in stock condition.
_________________________
'86 Monte LS (total'd Fall '2013), '87 GTA TransAm TPI350 TH700-R4, '85 Fiero 5-speed, '75 MG Midget Buick Alum.V8 BW 5-speed manual, '77 Pontiac Astre Formula wagon 5-speed posi, '78 F150 4WD 351"M ==> 400" C6, '79 Caddy Seville Olds EFI 350" TH400, 19' Slickcraft 425HP 351W MerCruiser I/O

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#955258 - 12/13/12 09:41 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: BuzzLOL]
carloss Offline
Member

Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 995
Loc: Burnaby, BC
I think the lift on that cam is too high without doing more work to the heads as mentioned.

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#955262 - 12/13/12 09:58 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: BuzzLOL]
sg5492 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 390
Loc: Leavenworth,Kansas
That cam is going to sound great and pull good in mid range.

One suggestion I will give you, spend the money and get it balanced. I will never put another motor together with out having it balanced.
_________________________
87 Monte Carlo SS (original owner) Pro Street, 388SBC, 400 Turbo Manual Valve Body w/trans brake 4,500 Converter, 4 link

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#955270 - 12/13/12 10:23 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: sg5492]
stevec_87SS Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Newtown, PA
I will have the machine shop do the balancing. Now I need to figure out what size push rods I need...
_________________________
Steve Callaghan - Black & Saddle 87 Monte Carlo SS with T-Tops, 350, Vortec Heads, Scat rods, Cast pistons, Shortie headers, crowed cam and lifters, edelbrock intake, roller tip rockers, Z28 springs, Edelbrock Performer carb, serpentine system
smcallaghan@outlook.com

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#955308 - 12/14/12 05:42 AM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: MAP]
MY FYN 79 Offline
Moderator
10+ Year

Member

Registered: 11/12/02
Posts: 9761
Loc: N/E WI
Originally Posted By: MAP
Stevec, do you have a factory roller block? Or, is the Vortec reference just for the heads? Thx.
Best,
MAP


It stemmed from another post Mark, but yes it is. Just needs the spider pedestals drilled and tapped.

Like mentioned, those lift numbers dont appear to be correct. It looks like you just bought the Summit/Sealed Power/Mellings/Edelbock/Blue Racer etc. 214/224 cam. That cam with the Summit 1103 flavor is on sale for $50 at Summit.
_________________________
~Jeremy~
79 Monte - Sold 5-11-13
Welcome Natalee Mae 3-16-12

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#955329 - 12/14/12 09:44 AM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: MY FYN 79]
stevec_87SS Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Newtown, PA
Hi Gang,

The numbers are from the web site I was referred to; Ryan's Builds.com, number 83 and I added a couple digits because the came is a slightly different grind than the Summit and Sealed Power version.

I have a 93 5.7L block that does not have the factory bosses in the lifter valley drilled and tapped. They are just mounds of cast iron in the valley. Apparently it was a crap shoot. The casting number matches it being from this era. I heard this is normal on the trcuk message boards that I checked. This is out of a 93 Blazer, K1500. I purchased a set of L31 Vortec's from my local yard for this project to get a better flow and higher compression ratio.

I went with the Crowler version of the cam at the recomendation of Summit Racing instead of thier bump stick. Not sure why they didnt want me to buy thiers and I am fine with the extra hundo for the name brand honestly. This is a Frankenstien build folks so it is using different era pieces to get a decent running 350. I will do the math on the numbers in the next day or two. I know they are off. My Pops is coming up to help me check some clearences on the bottem end this weekend.

Thansk All,
Steve
_________________________
Steve Callaghan - Black & Saddle 87 Monte Carlo SS with T-Tops, 350, Vortec Heads, Scat rods, Cast pistons, Shortie headers, crowed cam and lifters, edelbrock intake, roller tip rockers, Z28 springs, Edelbrock Performer carb, serpentine system
smcallaghan@outlook.com

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#955430 - 12/14/12 11:11 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: stevec_87SS]
stevec_87SS Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/10
Posts: 157
Loc: Newtown, PA
Ok guys I did the math and that web site was way off. Advertised duration times 1.6 gets me 461/477. This means the heads need some work so they went to the speed shop this afternoon.
_________________________
Steve Callaghan - Black & Saddle 87 Monte Carlo SS with T-Tops, 350, Vortec Heads, Scat rods, Cast pistons, Shortie headers, crowed cam and lifters, edelbrock intake, roller tip rockers, Z28 springs, Edelbrock Performer carb, serpentine system
smcallaghan@outlook.com

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#955496 - 12/15/12 01:22 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: stevec_87SS]
BuzzLOL Offline
Member

Registered: 05/02/06
Posts: 5510
Loc: Toledo, Ohio
. If your shop guys are competent at all, they can easily measure and determine what your particular pair of heads can handle as far as valve lift. If you don't already have the 1.6 rockers, you don't need them, can just use stock 1.5 ratio ones. You're going to be way over your "300 HP" goal either way...
_________________________
'86 Monte LS (total'd Fall '2013), '87 GTA TransAm TPI350 TH700-R4, '85 Fiero 5-speed, '75 MG Midget Buick Alum.V8 BW 5-speed manual, '77 Pontiac Astre Formula wagon 5-speed posi, '78 F150 4WD 351"M ==> 400" C6, '79 Caddy Seville Olds EFI 350" TH400, 19' Slickcraft 425HP 351W MerCruiser I/O

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#955649 - 12/17/12 05:24 PM Re: My Winter Build Cam, What do you think [Re: BuzzLOL]
MAP Offline
10+ Year
Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 3593
Loc: Yuma, AZ
Hi Stevec,

Did I read correctly that you multiplied duration by 1.6 and got 461/477?

What cam part number from Crower are you getting, exactly? This will settle the whole lift at the valve question.

Thanks,
MAP

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