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#522668 - 01/17/08 03:45 AM Power Mirrors  
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kubihibi Offline
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Kingsland, GA
Did you know that a 3rd generation F-body's mirrors are the same size as a Monte Carlo's? No? Well they are!

Sorry for the lack of pictures, but my beauty is currently in pieces in the garage.

The wiring harness for the mirrors is a separate harness on the last generation of f-body vehicles, good for us, eh? I managed to grab a complete setup from the mirror housings down to the switch. Odds are you can get them cheaply on fleabay. I routed the harness from the driver's door, up under the dash, across the back of the glove box, and up into the passenger door. The hardest part is getting the wiring through the boot that connects the door to the body of the car, this is because I have power windows too. It took me a good 5 minutes full of swearing and bloody fingers. Only thing I can tell you to make it easier is to keep at it.

I took a dremel to the lower door panel and made a not so nice hole for the control/switch. I think I might redo it down the road with a new panel.

The motors mount the same way inside the mirror housings as the remote mirrors and manual mirrors mount. There are 2 screws caddy corner of each other. You have to push the mirror the opposite direction to get them, it isn't difficult.

This can be done without removing the mirror, but I pulled my mirrors anyway. They are attached to the door with 2 nuts, the bolts are part of the mirror. This might also be a nice opportunity for you to get a new spacer from Mike's or Bweavy's sites.

The last part is finding a power source. The short orange wire comming off the switch is the power wire. I put a spade on mine and slid it in with the power locks. It doesn't pull a load unless you select a direction.

Now this was me being lazy and not wanting to extend any wires, if you feel the urge to be really creative, you can shorten the wires for the passanger side, and lengthen the wires for the driver's side, then throw it in your center console... or on your bezel where the remote used to be! Be creative, and have fun, or this isn't going to be worth the trouble for you.



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#523943 - 01/21/08 05:56 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: kubihibi]  
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A&G 4ME Offline
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I found that the F-Body mirror housings are different as far as how they sit on the door. They tend to angle downward slightly. I'm in the process of rebuilding the car and one of the upgrades was going to be power mirrors. As for the mirror mechanism, it will bolt directly in our housings.


87 Monte Carlo SS current project
68 Chevelle next project
09 Chevy Cobalt daily driver
#528243 - 02/02/08 02:51 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: A&G 4ME]  
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PB86SS/87LS Online beer
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I wasn't aware of the 4th generation power mirror swap. IIRC some folks have used power mirrors from late 3rd gens with the option, unless I'm mistaken. Good tip, is it a common option or standard for 4th gen f-bods? I've been thinking of this modification for awhile myself.


-86'SS 383 CCC QJet- BRF 2004r-8.5" 3.42
-87'LS 350 MAF/SD TPI- CRF 2004r-7.5" 3.42
-81'Grand LeMans Safari Wagon 350 CCC Q-Jet/CZF 2004-r/8.5" 3.73
-07'TBSS Stockish daily driver
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#529672 - 02/06/08 02:23 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: PB86SS/87LS]  
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kubihibi Offline
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As far as I knew, the only difference between the Monte's and Camaro's mirrors were the gaskets. The Camaro door has more of a curve to it than the monte.



Oh SNAP! I'm a Vet! Stuff for Sale
#530066 - 02/07/08 03:04 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: kubihibi]  
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A&G 4ME Offline
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I believe that the curve is what causes the problem. I'll do some more investigating to be sure.


87 Monte Carlo SS current project
68 Chevelle next project
09 Chevy Cobalt daily driver
#534438 - 02/18/08 05:02 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: A&G 4ME]  
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Rat Pack Offline
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Maryville TN
Guys I have read this thread and I don't see how any 4th gen F-body mirror can fit the 86-88 Monte SS mirror. Now maybe the 3rd Gen is what you mean as they are the same mirror head and glass and a lot of Camaros & Firebirds from 82-92 have power mirrors. Correct me if I am wrong and I would like to see some pictures for comparison...................RatPack......................

For clarification on F-bodies:
1st generation = 1967 - 1969
2nd generation = 1970 - 1981
3rd generation = 1982 - 1992
4th generation = 1993 - 2002

#534465 - 02/18/08 05:39 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: Rat Pack]  
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85_SS Offline
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Good question - I have seen people swap on the 3rd gen mirrors (same size/shape as 86-88 Monte mirrors), but not 4th gens (completely different from Monte mirrors).

Here are some pics to get everyone on the same page:

3rd gen F-body:


4th gen F-body:


Perhaps the glass/guts are the same shape on a 4th gen F-body, but the mirror housing itself definitely isn't. Tony, can you clarify if it's just the mirror glass and guts you are referring to? or do you actually mean 3rd gen mirrors? (I assume not since you noted the years above as well).

EDIT:
Here is a picture I found of the glass side of a 4th gen mirror - looks like the glass is the same basic shape, so if the bolt pattern is a match then I am sure that is what Tony is talking about:


[Linked Image]
1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
5.7 LITRE / TES Headers / SShaker Hood / WC T-5 5-Speed
1970 Pontiac GTO
Orbit Orange Judge Re-creation / YZ RAIII 400 / M21 4-Speed
#534599 - 02/18/08 10:51 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: 85_SS]  
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tri5ss Offline
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just gut the f-body mirrors and transplant the parts into the SS mirrors


Cars Ain't Art!
They Are Meant To Be Driven!
#534638 - 02/19/08 12:00 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: 85_SS]  
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Northeastern Ga
I just put a right hand mirror on my daughters 4th gen. The bolts go through the frame in front of the window. IIRC, there are 3 bolts holding it in place. It is totally different than my MCSS. I read that they were changing the guts out. I don't know it it is possible to place the workings inside of a MCSS housing.


85 SS Coupe, black, 350 w/ Serp, 700R4, lowered with Global West upper A's, 12 disc on front, 10.5 disc on rear.

86 Aerocoupe,runs great, and original, but needs complete restoration.

It is a proven fact that light is faster than sound. That is why some people appear intelligent until they open their mouth to speak.
#534973 - 02/19/08 03:46 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: ga86aero]  
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Rat Pack Offline
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Maryville TN
I think there is a lot of confusion as to what years are being used and will fit properly. The 93-up mirror guts are not the same as the 92-earlier, just confirmed it with my GM parts manuals. The mirror glass is not the same either and is not an interchange. The mirror glass is the same for all 86-88 MC and the 85-91 (can't confirm 92) Camaro, so it should be possible to install the power window motors into the Monte mirror housings from any 85-91 Camaro. My feeling is there is some confusion as to what year Camaro/Firebird mirror guts are being used, therefore the "generation" terminology is incorrect. Instead of saying a 4th Gen f-body, what specific year is being used, if not known, then we can "assume" they are actually 85-91 models being used, or 3rd Gen F-body. Clarification with pictures would be nice, along with the part number from the back of the mirror motor housing..................RatPack......................

#535378 - 02/20/08 05:19 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: Rat Pack]  
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PB86SS/87LS Online beer
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PB86SS/87LS  Online Beer
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Thanks for help clarifying. I was surprised to hear a 4th gen mirror internals would work. I've only heard of 3rd gen mirrors or internals being swapped for the power items.


-86'SS 383 CCC QJet- BRF 2004r-8.5" 3.42
-87'LS 350 MAF/SD TPI- CRF 2004r-7.5" 3.42
-81'Grand LeMans Safari Wagon 350 CCC Q-Jet/CZF 2004-r/8.5" 3.73
-07'TBSS Stockish daily driver
[Linked Image]
#535834 - 02/21/08 04:27 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: 85_SS]  
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I used the 3rd gen ones on my El Camino (which has the same mirror as the Monte SS from 86-88. The base of the Camaro mirror is definately cut at a different angle where it meets the door, and the plastic gasket is different as well. it will not sit flush against the Monte door, but you can take the motor & glass out and screw it into any of the SS mirror housings, but only works for the 86-88 sport mirrors, will not fit the 83-85 oval shaped mirrors. Also i found it easier to mount the switch in the dash and built a new wiring harness instead of mounting the switch in the door.


1987 Choo Choo Customs El Camino SS with Monte Carlo SS TH200R4, 3.73 posi rear,'87 SS wheels, Edelbrock TES with Flowmasters, S-10 Xtreme spindles & front brakes and custom SS/GN interior w/ power seats, mirrors, antenna, concert sound, etc .... The way GM should have made it in 1987! Coming soon 383 w/ roller cam!
#535836 - 02/21/08 04:30 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: 85_SS]  
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daveSS1987 Offline
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Wiring schematic for Camaro power mirrors.
This is useful for building a custom harness using the Camaro switch and mirror motors.
Dave

Attached Files
mirror.jpg (1745 downloads)

1987 Choo Choo Customs El Camino SS with Monte Carlo SS TH200R4, 3.73 posi rear,'87 SS wheels, Edelbrock TES with Flowmasters, S-10 Xtreme spindles & front brakes and custom SS/GN interior w/ power seats, mirrors, antenna, concert sound, etc .... The way GM should have made it in 1987! Coming soon 383 w/ roller cam!
#536595 - 02/23/08 03:33 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: daveSS1987]  
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Rat Pack Offline
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Maryville TN
Now that is slick!!! Only problem mounting it on the dash is the rear window defrost switxh on cars with that option. Could probably move the defrost switch to another location as it is small. You could also mount the switch for the mirrors in the console or lower drivers door panel. Thanks for posting the schematic.............RatPack.....................

#604713 - 09/11/08 03:51 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: 85_SS]  
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Rat Pack Offline
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Originally Posted By: 85_SS
Originally Posted By: kubihibi
For reference, the 4th generation of F-body cars ran from 1993 until 2002...


I am pretty sure he is in fact using 4th gen F-body parts judging by the statement above. Even though the PN's don't line up, as long as the bolt pattern (3 bolts IIRC) and general mirror shape matches the 4th gen Monte mirrors then it can be done.


Originally I questioned the accuracy of this post as to which mirrors were used for this conversion based on mirror design, and replacement mirror glass applications from GM. However at that time I didn't feel there was a need to try and further refute the claims of kubihibi as to what mirrors he used based on the above statements. Well after having to replace the mirrors on a 4th Gen Camaro this past week my suspicions were right. The power mirrors used in this conversion must not have come from a 4th gen 93-2002 F-body as claimed. There are a lot of differences between the 4th gen mirrors and the 86-88 Monte Carlo mirrors, other than the obvious shape, but also in the way the mirror motors and pivots mount inside the housings. The Monte Carlo mirrors have three mounting screws inside holding the mirror pivots, two at the very top, and one at the bottom. The ones for the 4th gen Camaro have two at the bottom, and then the upper one is on the side of the mirror that is only obtainable with the mirror off of the car. It is hidden by the mounting bolts for the mirror and instead of the screw going through the pivot mounting bracket and securing to the mirror "bucket", it actually installs through the mirror bucket and into the bracket from the side.(see pictures)

While working on this Camaro I also learned that the driver's side mirror glass on the 4th gen Camaro is 6-1/4" wide at its widest point across, the passenger side is 6-7/8" wide, this is due to the angle of the mirror housing being sharper on the passenger side. I assume GM did this to allow for more surface or viewing area on the passenger side mirror. Unlike those on the Monte Carlo that the mirrors are "mirror" images of each other from left to right and the glass is the same dimensions. The 4th gen Firebird/Trans Am mirrors are not the same as the Camaro, and even mount to the car in a different location than the Camaro. When originally researching the applications for the replacement glass, I found the Firebird to be the same as the Camaro per the GM catalogs for the driver's side. I did not, and have not checked the passenger side application since finding out that the L & R mirrors to be different in dimensions on the Camaro. See my original reply above as to what interchanges with the Monte Carlo mirrors and 3rd gen 82-92 Camaro mirrors. I have attached pictures of the driver's side Camaro mirror housing as compared to the driver's side 86-88 Monte Carlo housing for everyone to see. My feeling is the mirrors used were ones from the 82-92 F-body (3rd Gen)..................RatPack..........







#606940 - 09/19/08 01:32 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: Rat Pack]  
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Jameson Offline
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it is infact the 82-92 camaros, im sorry i didnt see this sooner. i picked up some power parts out of a Transam about 3-4 months ago. it is NOT the 93-02 model.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#607194 - 09/20/08 02:39 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: ]  
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rmodys Offline
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So we got the power mirror upgrade done this weekend. Thanks to Clutch_Grabwell for the Caprice switch and being the guinea pig and to RatPack for the heads-up on the eBay listing!

Here's one of the mirrors that we started with and the mounting bracket that you need:



First thing was to pull out the motors (three screws) and clean them up:



Next, I broke the glass to install the new glass:



What you end up with is this:



Next was to mount the glass. At $6 a side, I can't really complain about the poor fitment (it's not PERFECT but it's not bad, although the driver's side needed to be shaved down)



Here's the window control out of a Caprice along with the 8' passenger side harness and driver's mirror:



Next, I taped off the mirror and undid the glass:



I didn't want to deal with trying to get the little rubber grommet on there with the mirror installed so I just took it completely off, not a big deal with the glass down. Just two 10MM nuts and it's off. Here's the Monte Carlo mirror housing with the f-body mount installed:



From there you just get the wire into the mirror and then mount the base:



Next was the power source. We used the driver's side window (pink is hot, black is ground):



Then you just wire up the harnesses to the switch and you're pretty much all set. The finished product:






Attached Files
PowerMirrors001.jpg (1704 downloads)
PowerMirrors003.jpg (1676 downloads)
PowerMirrors022.jpg (1652 downloads)
PowerMirrors027.jpg (1677 downloads)

1986 Monte Carlo SS. Family owned 1987-1999; 2004-present, rust-free Florida car, L69 with TPI, B&M shift kit, 3.73 posi, new PUI interior, t-tops, lowered 2", refinished stock rims, Goodmark cowl hood, and amber DRL's.
#612776 - 10/10/08 06:34 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: rmodys]  
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T-Top Tony Offline
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Rialto, CA
ok just a little heads up for whoever decides to do this theirs two different brackets for the third gen camaro/firebirds.

This first picture is a setup that came off of an 87 camaro


This one i took off a 1990 camaro, you can see the motor sits differently from the first setup but it is the same motor


And heres the picture of the two brackets side to side


so remeber to make it work you will need the second setup i believe their in the 3rd gen camaro/firebird from 1989 and up but nt sure


1987 Monte Carlo SS with T-Tops, lowered with Belltech drop spindles and lowering springs. LS1 brakes up front and LT1 brakes in the rear. Trying to make a comeback!
whiteside whitefront
#612914 - 10/10/08 11:03 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: T-Top Tony]  
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kubihibi Offline
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Boy do I feel like an idiot... 3rd gen, not 4th.



Oh SNAP! I'm a Vet! Stuff for Sale
#612953 - 10/11/08 02:55 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: kubihibi]  
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Enfield, CT
Good info Tony. Like I said before I was not sure which year 3rd gen were different, but looks like you definately need the 89-92 bracket, I lucked out and my ebay mirrors had this bracket. You learn something new every day!
Dave


1987 Choo Choo Customs El Camino SS with Monte Carlo SS TH200R4, 3.73 posi rear,'87 SS wheels, Edelbrock TES with Flowmasters, S-10 Xtreme spindles & front brakes and custom SS/GN interior w/ power seats, mirrors, antenna, concert sound, etc .... The way GM should have made it in 1987! Coming soon 383 w/ roller cam!
#613360 - 10/12/08 10:47 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: rmodys]  
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Originally Posted By: rmodys
Thanks to Clutch_Grabwell for the Caprice switch and being the guinea pig...

You're welcome. Glad to contribute. And good job with all the pictures I failed to display in the other forum.
If anyone missed it here's the post outlining the Caprice switch development.

Originally Posted By: Clutch_Grabwell

Caprice.
It's a Caprice switch.


1986 MCSS, T-tops, TPI 350, T56, 8.5" 3.42:1 Posi, cruise, A/C, ZQ8 brakes
All power: Windows, locks, mirrors, 8-way GTO seats
Concert Sound II, seven speakers, two amps
As seen in Hemmings Muscle Machines Aug. 2010
[Linked Image]
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2010/08/01/hmn_feature6.html
#614983 - 10/19/08 12:04 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: T-Top Tony]  
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Riverside, CA
Thanks Tony for the motors and switch bruh. I really appreciate that. spinning I used the diagram Clutch_Grabwell drew up. My switch had different color wires, so I went by the letters on the wiring harness for the Caprice switch. My motors are from a 1990 Camaro, and the switch is from a 1992 Caprice.



Wired it like this

90 Maro mirror harness.......1992 Caprice switch

LH up-down:
yellow.......................D yellow
green........................C blue

LH left-right:
blue.........................C blue
white........................B white

RH up-down:
yellow...................E yellow/blk
green....................F blue/blk

RH left-right:
blue.....................F blue/blk
white....................G white/blk

Drew it up and took it to work for the techs to bench test it for me...


And the motors came to life!! Vid link below



Warren

Attached Files



My Chevy is So Super burnout burnout
#713244 - 08/12/09 07:28 PM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: bumpn1ohm]  
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83montecarlo632bbc Offline
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omaha nebraska
where did you get the replacement mirror glass??


1983 monte carlo ss "drag car"
powered by 638 cubic inches of big block power

1985 monte carlo ss "street car"
eventually will be powered by a 434 ci sbc f2 procharged


#713419 - 08/13/09 04:52 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: 83montecarlo632bbc]  
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rmodys Offline
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Mirror glass can usually be found off the shelf at stores like Advance Auto and if not they can probably order it with no problem


1986 Monte Carlo SS. Family owned 1987-1999; 2004-present, rust-free Florida car, L69 with TPI, B&M shift kit, 3.73 posi, new PUI interior, t-tops, lowered 2", refinished stock rims, Goodmark cowl hood, and amber DRL's.
#731481 - 10/16/09 04:35 AM Re: Power Mirrors [Re: rmodys]  
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83montecarlo632bbc Offline
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omaha nebraska
Just got my power mirror parts today, used the diagram above and worked great!!


1983 monte carlo ss "drag car"
powered by 638 cubic inches of big block power

1985 monte carlo ss "street car"
eventually will be powered by a 434 ci sbc f2 procharged


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