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#559517 - 04/20/08 07:06 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Barry 85 SS Offline
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Newport News, Va.
I have dual 12" Spal fans ,and dual relays and a temp sensor, in the intake manifold, that is supposed to turn on the fans at 195 and off at 180. They come on at about 185,(both fans at full speed). I run a 185 deg thermostat in the engine and it,(548ci BBC) runs at 180 deg all the time. My problem is once the fans come on they never go off. I don't think they would be needed at highway speeds in cooler weather. The way I see it is when the engine begins to cool down the thermostat begins to close to keep the temp up and the fans stay on to keep it cool. They seem to be working against each other. What can I do to have the fans turn off automatically when they are not needed.

#559561 - 04/20/08 09:23 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: Barry 85 SS]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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What fan controller are you using? With my Spal PWM I had the same problem, they would both come on full speed at the right temp, 195, but wouldn't turn off until the temp would get to cold, like 160. I was using a TX3 sender and after talking to the engineer that designed the PWM I changed to a TX13. I back probed my sensor and charted the voltage at the sensor from 100 degrees to 200. With the TX3 I only had about a .2vdc diferential from 178-198, the PWM needs a .4 diff in order to turn off. By installing the TX13 which has 6.2K resistance instead of 1.6K of the TX3, I now get .4vdc differential when I set the low at 178 and high at 198. Fans now run as they should.
Bob

#559566 - 04/20/08 09:42 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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TURBO Offline
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TN Smoky Mtns
I have had a Spal PWM for over 2 years. I also use the Ramcharger fans.As mmc427ss I have spent 2 years and several hundred dollars with "electrical mechanics". The Ramchargers just pull too much juice for the PWM.I have burnt 2 units and several relays. I read in a corvette forum alot on this unit. It seems Spal designed the fans NOT to turn completely off.It acts as an electric clutch fan.
I have the Spal sensor in my Edelbrock intake.Supposedly, The fans work on high with the temps but as you drive down the road the fan speed slows down to keep even temps.
Where do you get a TX13



87 SS White/ Saddle,t-top,350/330 hp
#559577 - 04/20/08 10:58 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: TURBO]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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I spoken to the Spal PWM designer several times and never heard him say anything about being designed to not turn off. My Spal dual 11" pulls a lot of amps, about 25 a piece. One problem is finding a relay rated higher than 20. I spent much time in the yards cutting out electric fan circuits/wiring/relays/fuse holders/weathertite connectors in order to use all GM pieces. The Bosch relay I'm using is rated at 20 amp and are GM donors. Bosch 25 amp relays are available but very difficult to buy in the states. Most everything Bosch sells here is Bosch USA and is the junk they import for the Far East. Even foreign car parts stores have problems getting the good Bosch parts.

The TX13 temp sensor is a Standard Motor Products number,
http://www.standardbrand.com/web_app/catalog/smp_bgbulk.aspx
put in TX13 and it will give you the vehicles it is used in. I have a Standard Engine Management Illustrated Parts Guide, 800 pages, which I got from my local parts house, it's 4 years old but is a great tool for interchanging and selecting most all the electrical and mechanical parts, gives specs and applications.

The TX13 uses the same wire plug that a TX3 uses, the TX3 is the sensor most ECMs use to get engine temp, the stock CCC uses a TX3.

I've upgraded the alternator to a 105 Amp, run heavier wire from the alt to my distribution block, heavier ground from the battery to chassis/engine and heavier wire from the battery to dist block. Also made sure all the system wire in the fan circuits is ample.

Bob

#559591 - 04/20/08 11:44 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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TURBO Offline
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TN Smoky Mtns
I have spoken with Mark and Britt thru the years also and they never said anything about running all the time either. I do not know how to link things but if you google - Spal PWM -and look at the first couple posts, one is from a corvette forum, read this- page 2 states alot of info.
I am also using a 20/30 Bosch relay( from import race car shop $11 ) and upgraded alt to 140 amp with the heavy wires.
I will try the different sender. Unless I'm setting in long traffic or a/c on, my dual fan should not kick on, just 1 fan and let the Spal unit adjust the speed. I also have a toggle switch to turn on a fan.I just had the newest upgrade done ( new Ramcharger fans, wiring split so each fan runs independent) and the 20/30 amp.$400 repair.



87 SS White/ Saddle,t-top,350/330 hp
#559634 - 04/21/08 01:29 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: TURBO]  
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Barry 85 SS Offline
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Newport News, Va.
I use 2 relays ,(1 for ea. fan), and a temp sensor that grounds the relays at about 180/185 and turns the fans on. I've had the fans a while now and I believe the relays and sensor was in a Spal box. I got all of it from a guy that sold on E-bay.
I found some paperwork and it is a Spal fan relay harness with a 195 deg thermostat,(sensor in intake), controlled relay. It says it turns the fans on at 195 and turns them off at 175. So it never turns them off because the car thermostat never lets the engine get down to 175. I have a switch to turn them on manually, which I never use, so I'm thinking about putting in a switch that turns them off manually.

#559741 - 04/21/08 05:41 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: Barry 85 SS]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Searched but couldn't find the link to the corvette forum you spoke of, just brings up C5-C6 forum and I don't think they have any need for a PWM. Found a brief statement on the third gen camaro- PWM "junk". Do you have a direct link to the negative PWM info on Vette forum.

Also a direct link to the Bosch relay supplier, import race car parts you spoke of.

Last I spoke to Mark was about Sept. He stated they changed venders who produced the PWM at sometime in the previous year or so and had problems with the reliability of the PWM. I said mine was about 3 years old and he said I have one of the good old one that was produced by the original vender.

Also Mark said in the Spring of this year they were going to introduce an upgraded version with a little more versatility. We talked about what I thought it should have as far as A/C control and he wasn't thinking they were going to be able to do anything in that area. I added a high pressure switch to my system to "open" that circuit (A/C on wire) when pressure was low so the fans wouldn't run if pressures are lower than 190psi. Also added an over ride circuit so I can turn the fans "ON" when I wanted by using the same A/C feed to the controller. Just a lighted rocker switch, a high pressure switch and some diodes to make it work correctly.

On my original install of the PWM I used the temp gauge sender for the stock Monte gauge mounted in my left head of the 305 and ran this setup for about 18 months with no problems. With the new motor I used the same location and sender but in my AFR 210 heads and thought I was getting temp gauge spiking from backfeeding the sender circuit via the PWM. I installed a TX3, per a Spal tech, in the thermostat housing and used the other input to the PWM, the Spal sensor input per instruction sheet. That's when I couldn't shut off the fan at low speed. Mark said to connect the white wire to the black and use a TX13 instead of the TX3 and back probe the sensor to see if I have a .4 vdc diff in voltage between my 180-200 set points which I have now. At this point the system is working exactly as it should and the true test will be coming soon as the temps in the East here get back to the 80's and higher soon.

If you use a relay on both the primary and secondary fans the PWM won't be able to run the primary fan at variable speeds as the PWM may not be able to turn the relay on for a primary fan due to the modulation signal it will send to the relay.

Good info going on here, hope we all can get something good out of this. I bought the PWM because it looked like it had the versatility I was looking for in a controller. Didn't like the Dakota not being weatherproof, and not much else out there that is versatile.
Bob

#559755 - 04/21/08 10:59 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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TURBO Offline
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TN Smoky Mtns
Google - spal pwm - and about 3rd item down, Apr 4,2006 - programming Spal in c3 corvette forum. Toward the bottom of page 2 is the comments on the pwm. It was not negative info, just people having problems setting. The manual does not state the temp rating between low/hi needs to be at least 20*.
My true test will be about a 15 hour drive I'm taking this weekend. Mostly interstate so fans should not be on.



87 SS White/ Saddle,t-top,350/330 hp
#560015 - 04/21/08 11:30 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: TURBO]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Here's the link at corvette forum. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=1353732&forum_id=3
In it is what is said to be the new PWM instruction sheet, dated 4/25/06.

Marc never said anything about having the fans running continuously to extend the life of the fans. He was the one who said I should use the TX13 because I wanted my temps set at 20 diff. Hopefully you still have the install instruction for the PWM and rewire it accordingly if you use the Spal or the TX13 sensor. When I called about a month before my last conversation with Marc I talked to a tech and wanted to order the Spal temp sensor and the tech told me to buy a TX3, "the same as the Spal sensor for less money". The TX3 wouldn't turn off the fans! That's when I called and talked to Marc in Sept.

I would suggest you try the TX13, check your voltage differential at 180-200, should be .4 vdc or greater and I think you'll be able to turn the fans off at 180. The TX3 would only give me .2 and temp would have to drop to 160 or so with the TX3 before the fans would turn off.

Do you have a website for the Bosch 25 or 30 amp relays?
Bob

#560304 - 04/22/08 03:54 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: strokedandslammed]  
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TTYPENSSRIDER Offline
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CALIFORNIA
 Originally Posted By: strokedandslammed
u can also buy the painless wiring kit for the electir fan....it works amazing with no problems...it comes w/ everything u need and its pretty cheap



is your fan 2 speed set up?
how did you wire that kit? I'll be getting the same kit in a day or two, and I was curious as to how to wire up my fans to kick on low fan speed the switch to high speed when needed through a/c wire or an override switch

#560423 - 04/22/08 11:24 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: TTYPENSSRIDER]  
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madamorr Offline
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Plano. Texas
Where is the best place to purchase the SPAL PWM controller? I have a set of fans from an 1995 Impala SS to install on my MCSS. I like that the SPAL PWM has the option for the A/C as well as a secondary fan.

Thanks in advance,
Michael


Michael
1984 Monte Carlo 'SS'
355 CI Roller Block, TPiS ZZ409 Cam, Sportsman II heads, Manley SS valves, Crane Gold 1.6 RR, Pete Jackson Timing gear Set, KB pistons, 4340 Crank, 4340 connecting rods, Edlebrock TES headers, 2004R, 373 Posi, MSD 6AL
1995 Impala 'SS' LT1 (306 RWHP/344 RWTQ)
1993 Taurus SHO
2005 Pontiac GTO LS2 M6 360rwhp/360rwtq
#560454 - 04/23/08 12:29 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: madamorr]  
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ProTourAero Offline
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Chesterton, IN
Hi Mike:
If you PM or E-mail me I could help you out.



1987 Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe "Pro Touring", 436ci All Alum. SBC, 18 Aluminum Heads, 700R4, 3000stall, Ford 9 inch, 3.90 gears, 620 H.P., 590 FT LBS Torque. E.T. 11.229 @ 123.62 on motor. 10.213 @ 137.58 NOS (10/02/2010)!
www.protouraero.com
#560586 - 04/23/08 04:15 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: ProTourAero]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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The Spal PWM can be bought direct from SPAL or you can get them numerous other places, Mike may even sell them.
My suggestions is don't buy their temp sensor, use a TX13 instead mounted in the thermostat housing above the thermostat, There it get's the most accurate temp reading. SPAL PWM info here: http://www.spal-usa.com/fans/automated/tech_sheets/PWMIns.pdf

You should call SPAL and see if the latest version is on the market yet, was due to be released this Spring.
Bob

#560709 - 04/23/08 03:23 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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TURBO Offline
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TN Smoky Mtns
That is alot more detailed than my instruction package. That intro said the same thing the corvette forum did about fans running all the time. The TX13 is on my list.The new Spal PWM are still not for sale. I spoke with the vendor I used he stated they were being made in Italy and should be available in the beginning of May. Spal's web store is not selling them. I have bought from both vendors and direct from Spal and beside price breaks you get, service is great from everyone.

Bob - The shop that got the relay for me has not responded. All I know is that they deal in imports and are located on Rt. 140 in Westminster, Md 21157. Yes, it is stamped Made In Germany.



87 SS White/ Saddle,t-top,350/330 hp
#560940 - 04/24/08 02:50 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: TURBO]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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It was several years ago I did the PWM and don't remember which set of instructions I got with mine. I printed a couple sets from Spal's site and have a set sitting under the bench with the other pertinent tuning papers. I found what I thought was the latest PWM manual when I was searching for the Vette forum info, will have to go find it again, think it was on a Chevelle forum.

At this point I've happy with my early addition of the PWM. The Summer months will tell how well it maintains engine temp and if I need to do something more to keep the motor cool, especailly with the A/C on. Will be cruising out the Pa turnpike 250 miles for the Monte Convention at the end of June, with the wife.

I did the Spal Dual 11" and PWM about a year before I swapped in the 427 SBC to work the bugs out on the CCC 305/T56 combo. Used the gauge temp sensor by tapping the white wire into the sensor, left the Green and Black wire in the harness for future use. Blue wire to the compressor side of the low pressure switch and everything worked fine. I could cycle 175-200.

Jumping ahead to last May now, swapped in the new motor. To many details about cooling problems to list here but quickly; Dart block, Steward pump and thermostat, AFR 210, no circulaion whatsoever from Steward no matter what you do, Edel alum pump fixes problem, temp spiking at cruise, install steam vent lines at 7-8 no help/no fowl, added TX3 to therm housing no change, change thermostat from Steward/Robt Shaw to Super Stant, bingo, so far. Couldn't get 178-198 setting on TX3 install TX13 seems to be the cure to getting better control over the fans.

Found my voltage diff measurements: TX3 from 180 to 200, was .32vdc. The TX13 was .61 @180/200. Easily falls within Marcs .4 diff and why the TX3 needs to see 165 to shut off properly.

Don't understand why I would need to run the fans continuously as is suggested on the Vette forum. On a cool night or morning, 50mph and faster, running the defrost, these are time you may not need to run it. If the fans only last 50K miles that's 10 years of driving for me, I'll have a social security check by then.
Sorry about he rambling.
Bob

#564463 - 05/05/08 11:47 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: TURBO]  
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JJMonteSS Offline
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Detroit, MI
I just picked up a dual fan setup from an LS1 Camaro and was wondering with the Buick radiator top plate, how does the A/C line look/attach?

I am thinking about buying the stainless top plate from g-body parts but am concerned that the A/C tube will fit with the plate.

Pictures of your setup would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Jason



'85 SS ZZ383, Extreme Automatics 2004r, 8.5 rear w/3.73 & Z06 brakes, Harwood hood, & Torque Thrust II 17's.
#564698 - 05/06/08 03:46 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: JJMonteSS]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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What is the amperage of the LS1 fans? The Painless fan controller has a max amperage of 30A.
Bob

#564868 - 05/06/08 09:36 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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JJMonteSS Offline
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From what I've heard from people, when the fans kick on, the amperage surges to just above 30 then goes down much lower. The 30A relay will have no problems with a quick surge...it's when you have a constant flow above 30A that becomes a problem. A few guys mentioned earlier in this thread that they've been running the LS1 fans for years with no trouble running a 30A relay.



'85 SS ZZ383, Extreme Automatics 2004r, 8.5 rear w/3.73 & Z06 brakes, Harwood hood, & Torque Thrust II 17's.
#586973 - 07/14/08 05:01 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: JJMonteSS]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Several months ago we had a little discussion about the PWM and the sensor to control it. If i remember correctly you were going on a trip and would see how the PWM controlled your fans.

Last month I took my car to the Monte convention and did a round trip of 550 miles, 90 degrees, @75 mph with the A/C running the whole time. The engine temps never ran out of range, maintained about 175-190 range the entire trip. The last 25 miles of the trip on the turnpike I turned off the A/C to make sure the temps remained the same.

I have a high pressure switch, 150-200psi, in the high side port to turn off the fans at lower than 150, on at 200, this is with R12, seems to work out great. This week I'm wiring a temporary indicator light into the low and high speed fans to show when each is running. With no A/C on it appears to takes a long time driving to get both the fans on. I want to know when each fan is running so I can tune the PWM more closely. Right now my temp probe in the intake says 174-194 are my setting and everything works fine.
Let me know how you made out with your PWM. I'm posting this on the forum also.
Bob

#589064 - 07/19/08 05:41 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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TURBO Offline
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TN Smoky Mtns
Bob,
I took a trip from Maryland to Milwaukee. With the Ramcharger fans, rewired to run 1 fan at a time and separate Bosch 30 amp relay for 2nd fan.Had problems with the Spal here with it leaking water. These are HARD to find. Got 1 but paid a premium of $100.Installed new one and the TX 13 sensor you talked about and they run great. I talked with Spal and confirmed the new models are waiting to ship.I also asked them about your a/c cut off and they were going to put some thought to it. That TX13 sensor ranges from $12.99 to $40.00. I got one for an 87 Omni $13.Since installation, I am working in S Mil so interstate driving. No issues even with sitting in traffic @ 85* + days. Spal even suggested the TX13 and gave part store numbers to get. I am very pleased with this set up. Thanks



87 SS White/ Saddle,t-top,350/330 hp
#589331 - 07/20/08 04:21 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: TURBO]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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I ran to the Monte convention at the end of June, 550 miles round trip, 90 degrees, with the A/C running the whole time @75 mph and the cooling system ran flawlessly.

If you're interested in how to wire in the A/C blue wire for more control of the A/C and fans I could help you with that. Mark at Spal basically said they weren't going to do anything with that circuit in the new designed PWM. A high pressure A/C switch, a lighted rocker switch, some wire and two diodes in the blue line will allow the fans to turn on and off on command or by a high pressure cycling switch. The new cars use the ECM to control the fans in A/C mode via a high pressure switch.
Bob

#597847 - 08/19/08 09:57 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: mmc427ss]  
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ITSANSS Offline
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Oklahoma
I purchased Spal 12" electric cooling fans and a Spal Pulse Width Modulator a couple years ago from eBay. (Brand new)

Wired in the PWM and worked great...for a couple days. Fans came on at desired temperature, but then never turned off until I turned off ignition. Rode around like that for a couple weeks then got a chance to investigate. Triple checked the wiring and fuses and relays. Could not figure it out, so I disconnected the PWM and simply kept an eye on my temperature gauge. Did this for quite some time.

Finally decided to do something about it, and I wired in a 6 amperage switch. That worked great...for a few months. Fans started to run constantly with ignition on. Switch had melted from current and ran constantly. Went a long time with no fans.

Got a new switch, the same one, and it also lasted a few months. Same thing, melted inside and fused itself together to run all the time. Disconnected one side of the switch and kept an eye on the temperature gauge.

Again, decided to do something about it and wired in an electric fan controller from Advance Auto Parts. I do not recall the brand name, but it was something they had in stock. Wired that up, worked great. Thought to myself, no more watching the temperature gauge on really hot days or at stop lights. That same evening, stopped working. Probe that went into radiator was screwey.

Wired in a 16 amperage switch. Has been working great for a couple months now.

In conclusion, fans look great as well as perform great, it is the controlling them that is absolutely horrendous.

May look into getting a temperature sensor for an '87 Grand National. I saw something about it I believe on the first page of this thread. Fans coming on at desired temperature and actually being reliable sounds too good to be true for me.

#638399 - 01/14/09 11:32 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: markg]  
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MOSTWANTED Offline
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NEWPORT NEWS VA,
I GOT BOTH FANS OFF OF A 1991 HONDA ACCORD AND THEY FIT PERFECTLEY. HAVENT HAD ANY HEATING PROBLEMS AT ALL

#668480 - 04/05/09 11:53 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: lazygearhead]  
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Broke Offline
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Richmond,VA
Does anyone have a wiring diagram for a 96 Monte? I was able to get the dual fans and entire harness for next to nothing. It'll make the installation on my 85 much smoother. Anyone run a similar set up?

thanks

#702422 - 07/11/09 05:00 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ [Re: Broke]  
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AndreB Offline
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Milwaukee, Wi
im going to the junkyard tomorrow to look fora fan. How much of the wiring do i need?


85SS 350v8, 200-4r, bodywork and H4 upgrade coming soon
dreday1062000@yahoo.com
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