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#183759 - 04/13/06 08:31 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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mrapii Offline
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Waipahu
I'm using RamCharger fans with a relay for each fan but only one 30 amp circuit breaker. The fans draw about 25 amps while running. It might be possible that if both fans would start up on high speed the 30 amp circuit breaker rating could be exceeded but I wired it so this is not possible. In any case a circuit breaker has a big advantage over fuses because they reset themselves.

#183760 - 04/14/06 12:19 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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gmachinz Offline
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Des Moines, Iowa
With a progressive voltage controller you would see about 5-6 amp draw on that same fan to cool at the same rate. No need to mess with breakers and relays when these mimic a computer controlled activation. You can run your stock alternator with no worries. Email me for details. Dustin, how's your controller working out for you? -Jabin


gbodyparts1234@yahoo.com

HARNESSWORX
#183761 - 04/17/06 08:03 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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benwa Offline
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Monaville, WV
hmm progressive voltage controller? So no relays needed with it? What about running a temp. controller too or right off the ignition to come on and off with key?



(My sig courtesy of sickspeedmonte)
Check out all my rides/projects at:
http://www.cardomain.com/id/benwa454
#183762 - 04/17/06 08:11 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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mrapii Offline
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You don't want the cooling fans switched to come on with the ignition. Use a thermostat or a progressive voltage controller but you don't want the cooling fans on all of the time.

#183763 - 04/17/06 08:20 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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benwa Offline
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Monaville, WV
What would they hurt running with the key on? other then the big voltage drop? I posted it in my thread I made right below this one.



(My sig courtesy of sickspeedmonte)
Check out all my rides/projects at:
http://www.cardomain.com/id/benwa454
#183764 - 04/17/06 09:39 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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mrapii Offline
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Because Chris the cooling fan(s) are not always needed and in cold weather the engine may never reach operating temperatures. When doing an electric fan install look to how the auto manufacturers did it; as far as I know all electric cooling fans are thermostat controlled except that with an AC a fan usually comes on with AC operation regardless of temperature. It just isn't that hard to use a thermostat and relay(s) for a proper install.

#183765 - 04/17/06 10:29 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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Duts87SS Offline
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Ocean Springs, MS USA
Quote:
Originally posted by gmachinz:
Dustin, how's your controller working out for you? -Jabin
They're doing excellent; wish all my mods were done so that I could enjoy them more.

Robin, the thermostat would make sure the engine gets up to temp, but, with the fans always on, would drop drastically once the thermostat opens. This is why the DC controller that Jabin sells (little better price than buying them direct, by the way) is so nice; it lets the engine get to your decided opperating temp and keeps it there. No more up to "this" temp and back down to "that" temp.


Dustin
87 SS
#183766 - 04/17/06 10:52 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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gmachinz Offline
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Des Moines, Iowa
If anybody has questions or needs help deciding how to wire their fans, gimme a shout. -Jabin 515-979-8602


gbodyparts1234@yahoo.com

HARNESSWORX
#183767 - 04/17/06 11:52 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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GregK Offline
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Winnipeg, Manitoba
Quote:
Originally posted by Duts87SS:

Robin, the thermostat would make sure the engine gets up to temp, but, with the fans always on, would drop drastically once the thermostat opens. This is why the DC controller that Jabin sells (little better price than buying them direct, by the way) is so nice; it lets the engine get to your decided opperating temp and keeps it there. No more up to "this" temp and back down to "that" temp.
If you have wide temperature fluctuations the problem is the engine thermostat, not a fan or fans or controller.

The job of the thermostat is to keep the engine at a certain temperature. It does this by opening an closing to push hot coolant into the radiator and pull cool coolant into the block.

If what you're saying were true all engines up to the invention of electronically controlled cooling would have wild temperature fluctuations. Think of the 70's and older cars that are driven in -30 degree weather and have a solid mechanical fan. The coolant can be as cold as -25 degrees when the thermostat opens, but the engine temperature doesn't drop drastically.

That brings another point to those that may be having temperature issues. Don't cheap out on your thermostat! Always buy a top grade thermostat that fails open. These units cycle within a narrow range of temperatures and as the name implies, pop open if they should fail, as opposed to the cheap models that fail closed and overheat your engine.


1987 Monte Carlo SS
White, Saddle, red stripes. All original. Factory ordered bucket seats with column shift (RPO verified!)
http://www.ssmonte.com/
#183768 - 04/18/06 12:38 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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benwa Offline
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Monaville, WV
I was thinking the same, water in the motor gets hot, causes the stat to open, as soon as cold coolant hits it it'll shut, once the fluid in motor gets up to temp, open. meanwhile the previous hot fluid gets cooled. That's the only problem I could really see with them running always, constant open and shut of the thermostat.

My camaro electric fan is wired to the key and has been since we had it. No problems ever with it. heck it's computer controlled too, which would make the computer think it's cold and use more fuel, it always has perfect plugs, and gets great mileage.



(My sig courtesy of sickspeedmonte)
Check out all my rides/projects at:
http://www.cardomain.com/id/benwa454
#183769 - 04/18/06 12:47 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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Duts87SS Offline
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Ocean Springs, MS USA
Quote:
Originally posted by GregK:

If what you're saying were true all engines up to the invention of electronically controlled cooling would have wild temperature fluctuations. Think of the 70's and older cars that are driven in -30 degree weather and have a solid mechanical fan. The coolant can be as cold as -25 degrees when the thermostat opens, but the engine temperature doesn't drop drastically.
If an engine with a 195* thermostat opens, even within 20* of its designed operating range, and 25* water enters the engine, that, in my opinion, would be a drastic change in temp. My point was that its better to keep an engine at a constant temp rather than go up to one temp and then down to another over and over again. I'm not a metalurgist, but having the parts in an engine expand and contract over and over cant be a good thing. Doesnt matter if it has been done this way for however many years; if you can keep the temps as constant as possible, the engine will last longer.


Dustin
87 SS
#183770 - 04/18/06 01:11 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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GregK Offline
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Winnipeg, Manitoba
I've never seen a good thermostat show more than a 5* swing in operating temperature, no matter what the ambient temperature is.

Keep in mind that a thermostat doesn't just "pop" open. It slowly opens a little and if it continues to see the temperature rising it continues to open until the temperature drops. At this point it begins to close. All of this happens inside of a 5 degree or less range of temperatures and at a lot slower speed than one would think.

To get an idea of it, check this out:

http://www.astorwax.com/pdf/Astorstat_v1.pdf

Page 5 shows the operating temperature range of the waxes. Pretty darn narrow. \:\)


1987 Monte Carlo SS
White, Saddle, red stripes. All original. Factory ordered bucket seats with column shift (RPO verified!)
http://www.ssmonte.com/
#183771 - 04/25/06 05:53 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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The Cadillackid Offline
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columbus, ohio
im doing the electric conversion as I build this car... one thing id like to find out is if anyone makes a VSC (variable speed controller) that can actually have a temp sensor put on the A/C liquid line and only run the fans when needed... say at 70 MPH down the freeway the condensor gets more than enough air across it to keep the A/C running efficient.. or on those cool damp days when the A/C is on only for defogging it seems foolish to run the rad fans on full blast.. yet on those 90+ days when you first start the car up and go MAX A/C i want the fans to kick hard.. seems most controllers only have 1 temp sensor input and then an A/C voltage input.. Id like 2 sensor inputs.. ive looked around at a lot of different fans but im still unsure of the best one to use, where does one get a mark VIII fan asthey are mentioned in here? the local boneyards if they get any mark's they are either front end wrecked or have caught fire.. do I need to go to ford? is there an aftermarket unit that works best? how many CFM do I need to move to have A/C on a mildly built 350? right now ive got a stock GN radiator for the monte but was thinking about going to a BeCool unit... i can handle the wiring I just need help finding the right fan and the right controller...
-Christopher


1988 LS, 385,edelbrock performer RPM and holley SA 770 carb, Headers,Duals,flow 40's, Gforce X-member, 2004R, Kevlar clutches ,Sonnax Servo,3000 Stall,3.73 Posi,Vette Rallies, Eagle GT II's, Nordskog Digital Dash, Mark VIII Fan, Ice Cold A/C,!Rebuild in progress!
** New 475HP Stroker SBC up and running!! and fryin Tires! **
#183772 - 04/25/06 05:57 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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Duts87SS Offline
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Ocean Springs, MS USA
dccontrol.com


Dustin
87 SS
#183773 - 04/25/06 07:17 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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mrapii Offline
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Waipahu
I don't believe that anyone makes a controller that monitors the AC pressures or temperatures and it really is unnecessary. Wire the AC into the system at the compressor clutch; when the clutch is engaged and freon is being liquified in the condenser the fan will be on, this is exactly the time you need airflow across the condenser. When the clutch cycles off you don't need airflow over the condenser and the fan goes off. I use the RamCharger fans and they work well, a very good buy.

#183774 - 04/25/06 07:22 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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Duts87SS Offline
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Ocean Springs, MS USA
The DC controller will turn the fans on at 50% when they receive signal that the AC is on and vary the speed up from there if need be.


Dustin
87 SS
#183775 - 04/25/06 08:09 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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mrapii Offline
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Dustin, the DC controller doesn't sense any inputs from the AC other than when the clutch is engaged. It doesn't respond to increasing AC compressor head pressures does it? It does the same thing that my non-DC controller system does. I think the CaddyKid was looking is looking for a very sophisticated system that varies fan speed with changing conditions of the AC system. His system would need pressure and temp sensors and an ECM for control.

#183776 - 04/25/06 09:05 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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The Cadillackid Offline
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columbus, ohio
the way all these controls work is exactly my issue.. I either have full fans all the time the compressor is on or i have 50% fans... the typical car A/C is actually real close to a 2 ton system.. 50% fans esp with 134a will run me a higher head pressure than the already somewhat fragile harrison R-4 compressor is comfortable with.. this being the problem when the carsits in the sun all day and is started and you sit in traffic another 10 minutes before getting going.. the A/C is under tremendous stress at this point in time so you need full throttle fans at this point.... riding down the highway at 70 I hardly need 100% fans.. or in situations like today.. its 60 and rainy so I have the A/C on to defog... regardless of where you set the cold/warm level the compressor still runs the same amount to try and maintain a 35-40 degree evap temp.. I tried the http://www.dccontrol.com and it is a dead link.... the sophisticated system mrapil mentioned would be that a temp sensor mounted and insulated on the liquid line as the freon exits the condensor.. ifthis line starts to get warm hit the fans... gets even warmer... hit the higher speed...Cadillac has it down pat.. only trouble is i never could crack the data stream that went from the ECM to their C-body fan control module.. it used an rs-422 serial data stream at 160 baud similar to that of an ALDL link...
-Christopher


1988 LS, 385,edelbrock performer RPM and holley SA 770 carb, Headers,Duals,flow 40's, Gforce X-member, 2004R, Kevlar clutches ,Sonnax Servo,3000 Stall,3.73 Posi,Vette Rallies, Eagle GT II's, Nordskog Digital Dash, Mark VIII Fan, Ice Cold A/C,!Rebuild in progress!
** New 475HP Stroker SBC up and running!! and fryin Tires! **
#183777 - 04/25/06 09:05 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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Duts87SS Offline
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You're correct, but the DC controller is the closest he's going to find to what he's looking for unless he gets creative and makes something himself. I was just stating a fact.


Dustin
87 SS
#183778 - 04/26/06 01:08 AM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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mrapii Offline
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Waipahu
CaddyKid, you are a techno freak and I can appreciate that but what you are looking for is, in my opinion, overkill. I'm a big believer in the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle; as long as it works and is reliable I think it is sufficient.

#183779 - 05/29/06 11:38 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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85_SS Offline
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Ontario, Canada
I just finished installing a Dodge Caravan fan with the dccontroller.com vsc (through Jabin here). The fan/shroud fit the Monte rad pefectly. I only had to make two small L-shaped brackets up top (bolted to Olds shroud) and a couple flat ones below - all mounted using factory holes. I mounted the controller inside the shroud to hide it as well. Looks completely factory. The controller works seemlessly. The only thing I may change is adding in the jumper for underdrive pulleys, so the fans come on 100% w/ A/C rather than 50%. This also makes them run minimum 10% at all times.

I have a set of dual TPI fans w/ factory upper and lower brackets for sale if anyone is interested - I was going to use these but liked the idea of a shroud when I saw the Dodge fan at a swap meet this weekend \:\)


[Linked Image]
1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
5.7 LITRE / TES Headers / SShaker Hood / WC T-5 5-Speed
1970 Pontiac GTO
Orbit Orange Judge Re-creation / YZ RAIII 400 / M21 4-Speed
#183780 - 05/29/06 11:51 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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gmachinz Offline
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CaddyKid, I sent you a pm for interest in possibly testing a new sensor we have just designed that will read the liquid line AC temperature. We will probably offer it as an accessory item for the FK-35 controllers. Basically, the controller will now adjust fan speed based on engine temperature AND AC actual liquid line temperature vs. the generic 50% kick up like it is now. However, we need to test it so your name came up since you said you'd be interested in giving us the data before/after. If you can't, no biggie, we can do it in the shop once it slows down a little. -Jabin


gbodyparts1234@yahoo.com

HARNESSWORX
#183781 - 06/14/06 06:16 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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Klaymen Offline
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Silver Spring MD
to answer the radiator top support question. dont go oem as youve found is hard to do. http://www.summitracing.com search for part # SUM-G3920 its a $18.95 chrome top support. its what i used and worked great.


1987 SS. way to many new things to list, will update when im done and have the energy...
#183782 - 06/14/06 07:31 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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85_SS Offline
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Cutlass/Regal top supports are a bolt in at factory holes, can't get any easier than that. Make a couple quick brackets at the top and bottom (again using factory holes) and you are done \:\)


[Linked Image]
1985 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
5.7 LITRE / TES Headers / SShaker Hood / WC T-5 5-Speed
1970 Pontiac GTO
Orbit Orange Judge Re-creation / YZ RAIII 400 / M21 4-Speed
#183783 - 07/14/06 12:10 PM Re: Electric Fan FAQ  
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SAmonte Offline
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Sterling, VA
I'm looking to do the ramcharger fan swap, but since whatever website sells them is no longer out there, how do I get ahold of one? What year ramchargers did these fans come out of? and about what should I be looking to pay for one? Thanks guys.
Eric

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