Shhhh...

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

I don’t think I’m getting off topic too much by saying if you’re going to buy any performance parts for your 4th gen Monte, you need to get them while they’re some still available.

Holley/Hooker will no longer manufacture/sell (at this time) any headers for 1975 and later vehicles that won't connect to the factory exhaust's catalytic converter. This means if you've been looking at long tube headers for your 4th Gen Monte, you better start looking for places that have them in inventory before all the other manufactures follow suit. This also applies to the LS swap long tube headers and conversion mounts.

From what I've pieced together, it appears that corporate at Holley has implemented all new products are to be submitted for EPA approval or designed to be EPA compliant. I can't find any new legislation, but this may be a reaction to the "Recognizing the Protection of Motorsports (RPM) Act" that failed to pass before the end of the last congressional sessions.

SEMA said Congress could not reach an agreement on bill language that balanced the need to protect racers and motorsports parts businesses from EPA regulations and ensure that race parts are not used on vehicles (1975 and newer) driven on public roads and highways. In a 2015 mission statement, the EPA took the position that vehicles built for street use that are converted for racing only still must remain emissions-compliant, even though they are no longer driven on public streets or highways.

While it's been illegal for years to remove emissions and run "race parts" on street vehicles, the difference in enforcement from one state to the next has varied greatly, allowing folks to "cheat”. It appears, by many manufactures pulling their performance parts, that manufacturers are afraid the feds will come after them for making the “illegal” parts. The law states any variance to the auto manufacturer’s engineering regarding controlling emissions is considered illegal. That means the converter and its location. Holley pulled all their long tube headers for a G-body because there is no way to run the driver’s side exhaust pipes to the factory located catalytic converter. Taking that even further if the factory cat was engineered/designed as a 600 cell count converter, it’s illegal to replace it with a “high flow” or “performance” converter. XForce has pulled all their high flow cats off their website and others have dropped the “high flow” or “performance” from the description of their converters.

So, while I think as long as your mods, no matter what they are, if the engine generates cleaner emissions than when stock, they should be OK, but what I think doesn’t matter.

Not car related but this is as an example of how the Feds are being creative in their enforcement and could explain why auto parts manufactures are getting gun shy. The best mom and pop gun store in my area just had their FFL revoked (without it you can’t sell new firearms) for what should have been considered as a minor paperwork error on the transfer form. In years past they would have rejected the form and asked them to refile. Now, one minor paperwork mistake is all it takes for them to shut down the place. This is happening nationwide. So while they can’t ban guns they’ve started going after the places that sell them.

So, like I said if you’re doing a performance build, you better get the parts while you still can, no matter where you live.

Great points, BadSS. Buick: about NY and AZ, I've lived in both for years, so I know both sides of that fence very well. That's why I said it comes down to local enforcement of federal laws, at least in practical terms. Me, if I were retaining an ICE, I think I'd go GMPP for an engine/tranny package and keep the emission controls that come with it. This route also protects me to a large extent from the imminent obsolescence of A/G-body-specific parts that BadSS described. Of course, this isn't the cheapest way to go, but the days of cheap hot-rodding are long gone. IMO, far better to save the nickels and dimes to do the job right than to hobble along on a shoestring budget making compromises at every step.

SBC vs. LS: kind of funny; reminds of the old "Chevy" vs. "Ford": turf wars. But I trust my friend Gerry at GM who asked me some 17-odd years ago whether I was going to build 383 CID (+/-) with an SBC or LS architecture. I said SBC. He said, "Too bad."

I was in a similar boat as Lance and had already acquired many good SBC parts over the years and it just made sense for me to stick with the SBC platform. Plus, back in 1989 I wanted to run this EFI intake made by Air Sensor Research but it was over $3,000 with their electronics and I just couldn’t afford it back then. I found one on eBay for $500 and that pretty much sealed the deal for the SBC. So, I’m building what I would have built if I had the money back then.

HOWEVER, if I were starting from scratch, I’d go LS without a second thought. An LS3 with a moderate, very streetable hydraulic roller cam (227/243-113, lift .613/.623) and headers can make 550 horses while putting out more power over stock at all RPMs over 3K.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/chevrolet-performance-ls3-camshaft-dyno-test

You have to spend at least $2,000 just on heads for a SBC to get close to that kind of power with that sized cam.

I would have never guess my post was going to get this much feedback and attention. Thank you everyone! I been on this site for years and every time I hop on, the amount of support and information on this page is the absolute best, second to none.

My mechanic knowledge is average but when it comes to the CCC and emission system in the Monte,I get confused and intimated quickly hahaha I do learn quickly just need a place to start. Are there articles or drawings available that can show how these two system function?

I have been going back and forth with LS vs crate 350. Part of me would be great doing the swap but the design and customization needed may be above my head. The crate motor is prob more my level. I have no parts yet so starting from scratch. My goal is just a faster car, that a weekend warrior can repair and maintain. Likely no drag but prob low13s, which is pretty easy to get with today's technology. I always liked the 200r4 tranny and some of the computer controlled stuff (i.e cruise and reasonable gas mileage). For me, getting a known setup that works and reliable would be good for me.

The OP said in the first post that he was not concerned with emissions.

The engine wiring is very well documented by Holley and available to anyone that searches for it. I can see that being an issue with a custom harness, but you get all the drawings with a Terminator. It took me about 30 minutes to add the wiring into the ECM for a VSS using a connector purchased separately and I had it working. https://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_199r11761.pdf

This isn't going to be as regimented as all of us number crunchers like to see, but here is some data...
My car was 3760 on our platform scale prior to the swap with me in it and 1/2 tank indicated. 2080 was on the front end.
-I swapped to a Braille 17-lb battery and relocated it to the firewall (previously 34 lb. Delta: -17 lb)
-I removed the heater box (which I did not weigh but generous estimate 30 lb)
-I fabricated a new trans crossmember that might be 10-lb less
-I swapped the Flowmasters for Ultraflows and went from 2.5 to 3" pipe, both mild steel. Maybe lost 10 lb?
-I swapped to a 16-lb flywheel. -24-lb delta
-I exchanged the magnesium bellhousing (13 lb) to a steel SFI quicktime (22 lb)
-I added a fuel pump to the tank. Shipping weight was 3 lb
-3-core aluminum radiator is probably a wash, considering the added fluid capacity.

I didn't touch the chassis, the trans is a like model (black tag vs blue tag ZF), driveshaft and rear are the same.

So call all that 85 lb not including the engine. The car now weighs 3460 with me in it and a half tank. So the car lost ~300 lb total and 215 from the engine. The front axle is now 1900 lb.
Aluminum VS iron LS, the block alone is about 100 lb difference from what I see online... And I went from iron block, iron heads, heavy Edelbrock aluminum intake/carburetor to an aluminum block, aluminum heads, and plastic intake. The oil pan might be a little heavier, being cast aluminum vs thin stamped steel.

I've had a chance to put 46 autocross runs on it in the last two weekends and you can definitely feel the weight loss. The car carries more speed through the turns and feels more nimble. Of course it accelerates a lot harder with 83% more power too. Compared to the competition that I run regularly with, I'd say I picked up 1-2 seconds on a ~40 second run.

SSM - Thanks for getting those numbers. I assumed you had the typical SBC as hotrodders tend to build them, with an iron block and aluminum heads. With iron heads, a 215 lb engine weight loss makes more sense.

So the car lost 300 lb total as you say. You report 180 lb lost on the front axle, so we get about 55/45 F/R weight distribution before and after. Those numbers don't seem at all consistent with your weight loss description, where you have the engine weight loss and some other weight losses that are generally closer to the front axle than the rear. High-200s of lb would have been more credible.

Dustin - Sounds like buying more of a turnkey assembly rather than building a complex system from scratch would be the best, if not necessarily the cheapest, approach.

Thx,
MAP

For the OP, I think either option is definitely doable. If you want to learn and tweak the CCC system, this is the place to learn (or sometimes, learn where to learn and get pointed in the right direction). I'd think that a healthy crate 350 on the CCC system and a few minor upgrades and projects would get you where you want to be. If you go the LS route, the biggest decision that will determine how complex the swap will be is your budget. If you have the cash to go with the Holley parts basically across the board, there's very little that you will need to "figure out", and when you do have questions, folks here can get you set rather quickly. If you are pinching pennies, you will have to do more figuring, which we would love to help you with too, but it'll be more mental work rather than the wrenching work. If I had to guess, maybe $4-5k plus your engine/transmission cost?

Something to keep in mind it that trips up a lot of folks - a decent "junkyard" LS should not need to be rebuilt. When folks compare the cost of rebuilding a 350 vs rebuilding a 5.3, it always shows cheaper to rebuild a 350. But what they are missing is that a typical LS with less than 300k is going to do what you need it to, as long as it hasn't been messed with or previously trashed. And if it gives up, in my area a new 5.3 long block is $5-600 and you are back ready to go. Many folks, myself included, feel that the opportunity for error in rebuilding an LS is higher for the average person and average machine shop than any potential benefit of a rebuild. Just keep the "factory magic" in by leaving it sealed (unless specific needs require it).

As for weight, I did not get any before or after numbers, but when swapping from my all-iron 4.3 V6 to the iron/aluminum/plastic 5.3, my front end seemed to sit a little higher, maybe 1/2-3/4" but I did not measure. Same transmission etc, did replace the smaller factory radiator with a larger aluminum aftermarket style as well. Driving feel was not noticeably different, but mine being a base car that has never been around the corners very well, I'm so firmly in the slop that I doubt anyone could tell the difference of 100 pounds in the front with the dive and roll on mine.

My LS3 swap isnt emission legal even though it runs cleaner than the original L69.
Pretty much have to register it underground in locations that do not have emissions checks or run emission exempt classic or collector vehicle tags.
Stay out of California unless you have a referee station pre-approve your swap.
Did I hurt the value of my SS? Dont care, it's not for sale.

We weighed James Wolter's Cutlass the other day after he completed his all Aluminum LS swap and he lost 198# off the front compared to his iron block, iron head Olds small block. His AC box is still in car but he did not reinstall an AC compressor on the LS.

Lighter yes...worth all the hassle he went though (and is STILL going through) trying to get this swap complete...not in my opinion.

I am now way more intimate with hands on experience with what it takes to properly swap an LS into these cars and man, it is not nearly as easy as some like to make it out to be. Unless you pony up the big dollars to use all Holley swap parts, you've got a fight on your hands. Poor James is broke, wore out, and still doesn't have a car that's ready to race this Sunday and he started the actual swap months ago.

Just my .02...

Better be careful what you say or Travis will chide you and state LS swaps can be installed and running in 15 minutes and only cost a dime, lol.

This is what some guys in Facebook groups have been good at(not saying Travis is part of that), perpetuating how cheap LS swaps can be done while the aborted LS swap project cars pop up for sale. Some swaps look like abominations under the hood and I can't help but wonder how many popsicle sticks and elmer's glue was used. When I get around to doing mine I know it won't be cheap. Cheap, fast and reliable: Pick two.

The biggest problem I see is not that the reputation for cheap LS swaps is unfounded, but it is misapplied and misunderstood. It is definitely a cheap way to get a 300+ hp modern, efficient engine into just about anything that held a small block before, using readily available junkyard parts and a little bit of thought and planning. The problem is that a lot folks hear about junkyard swaps, go buy a trashed shortblock, then rebuild it with a mix of OEM and aftermarket stuff, get the wrong head bolts or something, get halfway through, decide that they want more power, get a $500 cam but then get $50 lifters on amazon, buy an aluminum intake because racecar, find out the stock throttle body doesn't fit, buy another one, now their DBW pedal doesn't communicate because it isn't a matched pair, get a fuel pump and a Corvette regulator because they don't want to run a return line, find out they have to run a return line anyway (it's just 2' instead of 20' long), get to the engine, ask what to do with the return line they have on the fuel rail (that they should have used to begin with), find out the injectors don't fit their aluminum intake, buy new injectors and fuel rail, but a cheap harness based on the parts they thought they were going to use which now doesn't work because they got other parts that someone told the they needed, and give up because it's all too complicated. In reality, if they had left the dad gum thing alone with 200k parts on it, they would be running just fine another 100k and could use plenty of the factory parts, go to autozone and get anything they need, and be happily on their way for cheap. But because they went in half-cocked with no plan, they bought double the parts they need and still don't understand why they can't do it for $20.

To be sure, there are guys who go into it with a plan, and make rational calculated changes to it, and still end up $10-15k deep, but they are usually cranking out fairly serious power and/or making an exceptionally clean swap, which would be every bit of the same budget going with an SBC rebuild plus or minus parts they may have on hand. And those same folks are usually looking for very specific performance goals that will require custom parts, and like any engine, custom parts combos can get very hairy for compatibility and tuning. Just look at the hurdles we've seen here with a few guys trying to get a decent set of SBC heads, it isn't as simple as it should be there, either.


I'll admit, mine is a lot more of a hack job from the looks side of it, but I did it for about $2000 12 years ago, with almost Zero aftermarket swap parts. I could have made it much nicer looking for another $500, but I don't care about looks like I care about budget, so I made those decisions. But it took months of planning for that to happen. Looking at doing a swap into my K20 suburban, I can do it much nicer with AC etc. for about $1000-1500 (not including the running 6.0 donor I already have). But it takes being careful about what I buy. The facebook forums are full of guys saying "I bought this incomplete engine I know nothing about, now what?", then 6 months later posting the truck for sale. It's an education and planning issue, not a parts/platform issue.

This is true, good point. The same types of people who butcher their LS swaps probably did or would do the same on anything else. The masses shifted to LS swaps, so it seems, and that means some people who shouldn't touch their vehicles.

I just enjoy another chance of posting the deadhorse emoji

This is funny stuff. Lance's feedback really isn't a good benchmark for any LS swap. Where can you find a junk yard full of Gen 1 SBC stock engines that make 325 HP - 430 HP these days or even 20 or 30 years ago? That might be a contributing factor in the swap quest for most, but who knows?

L
Can say the ssme thing about LS now in some regions of the US. Some of the LS guys complain that the supply of cheap used running LS engines have become scarce in their local junkyards.

When all else fails, sometimes beating a dead horse is a nice personal form of therapy... Kinda like a pinata at a kid's birthday party, or the guys beating the printer in that movie Office Space...

Office Space is such a great movie.