I know just like the 305 build not everyone is going to approve of what I'm doing and some will feel it's completely sacrilegious and that's ok, everyone likes what they like and are free to state their opinion and do what they like on their own car.
I enjoy building things, the planning , the measuring, the welding, the fabricating. I enjoy that part of the hobby more than anything. The more I looked at the moser 12 bolt, the s60, or 9" from any manufacturer it just didn't excite me because I was going to spend $3500 to $5000 on just a rearend that doesn't add to the fun factor and I would be done installing in 1 day more than likely. Not much fun in my opinion. I'm not very hard on my car but I do have the occasional fun moment and with the engine I'm building (if the machine shop ever gets finished) I was a little worried about the 10 bolt behind a manual transmission and don't want to take a chance with breaking something and it's something else to mess with.
The rearend I decided to go with is from a 1997 Mercury Grand Marquis same as the crown vic. I got a lot of info from 2 other guys I found that have done the swap on other forums, The upper cast ears are dead on the gbody height from center line, the ears are spaced out a little over an inch more then the gbody. For our cars the downfall of the mustang 8.8 was the poor position of the ears even though lots of people use them in g body's, with the crown vic it addresses that issue. Here is some pictures I took of the crown vic rear end vs the 8.8 mustang rear that people use. The pinion offset is roughly .500 to the passenger side on the 7.5 and CV 8.8. The CV 8.8 has 3" tubes.
Here's some pictures borrowed from other discussions that aren't mine.
Here is the rearend housing as of now after spending $80 on it at Pull a Part, $50 to have it sandblasted, and some time with a grinder (while grinding brackets off i did remove the other emblem from the housing). In this picture I have the upr g body spherical joints in the housing test fitting them.
I know you're happy to have made a decision and able to get to work on it. It'll be strong enough and save you a lot of money. I don't see it being any more sacrilegious than putting in a 9", like so many of us have done over the years. Looking forward to the build.
The 8.8 is also more efficient than the 9 inch which is almost a worm drive. The police versions of the 8.8 have lower gear ratio options plus impact shields. 3.27 is the standard gear ratio for CVPIs with a optional 3.55 ratio. In 1998 Ford Panthers switched from triangulated 4 link to parallel 4 link so you want to avoid post 1997 models. 1997 was also the last year for the Aero generation of Ford Panthers, 1998 was the first year of the iconic Whale generation Panthers. This means for donors you want to avoid the common Whale Panthers and look for the older and increasingly rarer Aero Panthers.
Last edited by Buick Runner; 04/04/2303:07 AM.
SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.
2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
So the above picture is where I'm at at the moment which is the very far along. As far as measuring everything I did jack the car up, removed the wheels and tires, undid lower control arms to get pinion at 0 degrees , everything level, and plotted the rearend points on the floor with a plumb bob. I was mainly concerned about width, axle centerline, and the lower control arm location but also ploted pinion center. It was all just to get rough ideas. Below is driverside axle flange, control arm mounting points, shock/coilover mounting point, axle centerline, and pinion centerline. Not the greatest picture. Center to center the lower links are 44" apart, pinion is .500" to passenger side from center, and with drum brakes wheel mount to wheel mount was 57 13/16".
Interesting thing is that none of the 3 major rearend manufacturers will sell you any brackets. 2 years ago they all sold brackets. When I ask why it was explained that if the can't weld it on themselves they want no liability. I had to order the above from a roundy round race car shop. I needed the 10° angle brackets like stock to line up with lower control arms. If these won't work I'll just build my own we shall see.
Housing ends are Strange 1143 , they use the Ford 3.150 bearing with a gm bolt pattern as I'm using ls1 rear disc. You could also use moser 7900fm but they only use a ball bearing. I wanted to run a tapered bearing. One other thing is the 3 different people I talked to at Strange were helpful and answered all my questions and helped me. Moser not so much.
Spring perches are from southside machine. I'm going with my coilovers but I wanted spring perches also so I have the option.
Looking forward to seeing this one. I'm curious, what's the possibility of using the Crown Vic as-is? i.e., I know wheel studs would be wrong, how about axle width? Have to be narrowed/stretched (hard to tell form the pictures)? Spring perches seem close, not close enough? I know you will do it right, I'm just curious how wrong it would be for the 80/20 crowd like myself
I've always thought the 8.8 in some form would be my upgrade path when I can get back on the Monte, but I was leaning toward the Explorer with two "short" axles and a truss kit (either from Southside or fabricated from scrap plate, depending). This is the first I've heard of the Crown Vic as a donor, the Mustang always seemed like a hack fix with the adapters, which honestly seemed like way too much money for a bandaid fix that still needed upgrades (5 lug, axle upgrades, etc) to be a significant gain form what I heard.
Shawn
'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
The short of it is I think it would work with just shortening it and upper control arms, the above picture of the gbody and crown vic rear end the CV housing had already been shortened. I will get into more of simalarities and differences as I move along. I will say that the car i pulled the housing from had a sweet disc brake setup with the ebrake in the hat.
The main 2 threads I got the info from have quite a bit of detail and are good resources. The first is Tokarz1 Midlife Crisis build thread, great build going on, lots of pictures with this rearend and frame only. Here is where the comparing axles start.
Probably won't be much progress til next Sunday or so, im still gathering stuff and we are coming out of an outage at work with some long hours. I was off today so I went and refilled my acetylene bottle for my pre and post heat on the cast center when I weld the tubes to it and picked up some 3/32" 309L tig rod. I thought I had some but I didn't so I just got 1lb which was $8. I'm not a very good welder or metalurigist but my welding instructor made us weld dissimilar metals and 309l will fit the bill for this while letting it cool slowly.
A co worker had a 1.25" bar and 3.150" pucks from building a 9" so thankfully he let me borrow it so that saved some money. The 8.8 has 3.062" carrier bearings but I was able to get them off ebay for $50 and I picked up a pinion centerline jig for $23. This should be the only tools I need for this project hopefully. I did check the straightness of the housing and it's out a little but if I weld the tubes to the center in the right order I should be able to pull it straight.
I have everything to start work on the housing. Below is the lower control arm brackets from Medieval Chassis and the spring perches from SSM. I'm using my Aldan coilovers but wanted the option to put springs on if I wanted in the future.
I also recieved the Strange 1143 housing ends, A1013 bearing set (timken set 20), b1300hstkit t bolts, and b1105d spacer for ls1 rear brakes.
Last night I fit everything together with the 98-02 ls1 rear disc brake backing to come up with a measurement. All of the measurements are on the web but I would rather measure myself. Here is the setup.
After measuring this is what I came up with to get the stock width.
I'm wanting to keep my car drivable while I do all this but I want to remove the 7.625 10 bolt so I can mock up the new rearend and get brackets on this Sunday. I plotted out the old rearend mounting points by dropping the driveshaft and lower control arms, getting the pinion to 0 degrees, rearend level side to side, and using the plumb bob to mark points on the floor. I feel that I could build the new rearend off those points but would feel better getting it in place, bolting brackets to control arms and swinging them up and tacking that way I know it fits. This is how I did the 3 link on my truck in 2015 and it worked well.
Is there enough slack at the pinion brakeline to drop the old rearend and get it kind of out of the way or should I just disconnect and clamp brakeline and re bleed the rear brakes so I can remove the rear all the way? I hate bleeding brakes lol.
That pinion flex brake line is pretty short...and can sometimes destroy the hard line fitting when removing. Your car is pretty clean though so that shouldn't be an issue. Pretty sure you'll have to remove it from the axle to move the axle out of the way though.
Smart thinking welding the axle brackets on with the arms in place, it's worth the rebleed...
Lance, thank you for the info that's what I was looking for. I was hoping someone that was recently familiar with that area of the car would answer. I'll just remove the rearend completely and rebleed.
Completely different application but when I did the truck I found the wheel base I wanted and transferred the mark to the frame. I put a long 3" u bolt around the axle lifted it where I wanted and tack welded the u bolts to the frame that way the axle could still rotate to set pinion angle and move side to side to fine tune, then just swung brackets up and tacked them. Removed axle then finished welding. The frame was notched afterwards. I daily drove the truck til 2020 sold it and now it lives its life as a full time show truck being hauled in an enclosed trailer in West Virginia as pictured below.
I was proud of that truck, all the shops wanted 10k plus and atleast a 1 year or more wait. The most I had ever done was put drop spindles on a truck but I had a small welder and knew how to use it. I borrowed a car from a relative and used a tiny 1 car garage at my dad's rental house and in 42 days was done with front and rear suspension. Also did all the sheetmetal work to tub and close in bed and built sheetmetal inner fenders for the front. It was a fun project and started me on the "I can do this path". The side note too this is that I had wasted the previous 10 years of my life being nothing but a full blown alcoholic and doing nothing but trying to survive and drink. This project is what filled that idle time and got me out of the devils workshop and I've not drank since and hope I never do. It was no life too live.
Sorry to blab on, Back to the rearend build.
Setting up the rearend
Truck and Monte
The truck living it's retirement life in West Virginia with its enclosed trailer behind it.
I want to add something too this also, one of the guys I followed on his build had quick performance shorten, put gm ends with big bearing on, spring perches, and lower control arm brackets on a 8.8. For around $500 to $600 total you do have that option if interested. Quick performance doesn't charge much it's just a large part of the $500-$600 is shipping housing back and forth.
So I've talked about the lower control arm mounts and what I'm doing there but haven't brought up the uppers. The ears are the same height but they are a little wider and a little farther forward. The g body factory upper arms are 11" and after reasearch of others you can't get your pinion angle right even with the adjustable upper control arms. It seems like the 68-72 a body uppers are the ticket, the factory arms are 10.25". I ordered and just recieved the spohn 68-72 a body uppers with the roto joint in them which is in the first picture. The other pictures are from tokarz1 build just to show the alignment of the a body uppers and the crown vic 8.8.
Another detail to this 8.8 rearend is the size of upper ear bushings, they are roughly 2.070" o.d. with an I.d. for a 14mm bolt, g body is roughly 1.850" o.d. with an i.d. for a 12 mm bolt. The 68-72 a body spohn uppers use 1/2" (12.7mm) bolts. So I have 2 options.
-Use the 8.8 rubber bushing with a 12.5mm id to 14mm o.d. spacer I made for the thru bolt.
-Use the g body spherical bushing with the spacers I spent a lot of time machining to get the perfect fit so everything was tight and upper bushing or spacer could not spin in the housing.
You could also drill out the upper arms to accept a 14mm bolt but didn't want to do that so I could have both options now and in the future. Since my car is just a cruiser I'm leaning towards the 8.8 rubber bushing going in, I worry about the spherical bushing and the nvh. The other end of the arms have the roto joint.
I'm a big fan of sacrificing very little NVH gain when using a Delrin Spherical bushing instead of rubber, definitely way before doing poly. Every joint of the 16 in my car is Delrin or a Del-sphere and I think you wouldn't mind the improvements.
Didn't realize the 8.8 rear bushing has a bigger OD than the GM counterparts. When i first installed the 8.5 the Camaro 1LE rubber bushing were installed in the rear. Later went to the Delrin HR in the rear location. Did some homework, 7.5 and 8.5 can use the same bushing, and the 12 bolt from what i saw on Ridetech use the same R joint, all are 1.85" OD. ". https://www.ridetech.com/product/19...m-r-joint-bushing-and-tool-kit_11227299/
My concern about using rubber at that location is the alignment of the arm is somewhat compromised being it's not in direct alignmnet. A rubber bushing is always stress more, like side loaded. A spherical joint on both ends of the UCA would make that pretty much a moot issue.
I tried shopping Rock for an UCA rear bushing and couldn't find a part number. What Vic year does the rear fit? Bob
I'm a big fan of sacrificing very little NVH gain when using a Delrin Spherical bushing instead of rubber, definitely way before doing poly. Every joint of the 16 in my car is Delrin or a Del-sphere and I think you wouldn't mind the improvements.
Didn't realize the 8.8 rear bushing has a bigger OD than the GM counterparts. When i first installed the 8.5 the Camaro 1LE rubber bushing were installed in the rear. Later went to the Delrin HR in the rear location. Did some homework, 7.5 and 8.5 can use the same bushing, and the 12 bolt from what i saw on Ridetech use the same R joint, all are 1.85" OD. ". https://www.ridetech.com/product/19...m-r-joint-bushing-and-tool-kit_11227299/
My concern about using rubber at that location is the alignment of the arm is somewhat compromised being it's not in direct alignmnet. A rubber bushing is always stress more, like side loaded. A spherical joint on both ends of the UCA would make that pretty much a moot issue.
I tried shopping Rock for an UCA rear bushing and couldn't find a part number. What Vic year does the rear fit? Bob
Up until 1997 was the Aero generation of Crown Vics used triangulated 4 link suspensions similar to G bodies. In 1998 the Whale generation of Crown Vis debut which were redesigned with parallel 4 link rear suspensions with a Watts linkage which has major differences with G bodies.
Picture of a post 1998 Crown Vic 8.8 that you want to avoid.
Last edited by Buick Runner; 04/15/2311:37 PM.
SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.
2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.
Never argue with an idiot. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
1997 crown vic bushing 2.070 o.d./ 14 mm bolt i.d. G body bushing 1.850 o.d./ 12 mm bolt i.d. Mustang bushing 1.850 o.d./12 mm bolt i.d.
Maybe i wasnt clear but as pictured above I have brand new raybestos 570-1033 rubber bushings ($24) that are made for the 1997 crown vic 8.8 rear end (2.070 od/14 mm bolt id) sitting on my bench. I made a spacer that fits inside that makes the I.d. for a 12 mm bolt like the g body.
Also on my bench is the UPR Teflon lined spherical bushing for a g body as pictured above. It is 1.845 o.d. and i.d. for a 12mm bolt. I made a steel bushings on a friend's lathe that has to be lightly driven into the housing ear and then the upr spherical bushing can be lightly driven into it then the nut on the spherical bushing gets a little blue loctite and tightened and fits like it's in a g body, the spacer is laying behind it in the above picture.
Sitting under the bench as picture above is Spohn A-body arms with a Del-sphere pivot joint.
I have both options in front of me and can swap out as I please.
The nvh thing is subjective, you say very little nvh others say its a lot of nvh. I think we need to remember what I use my car for. Me and my wife drive my car to carshows, cruise ins and to get ice cream on Sunday evenings and occasionally i leave a few black marks so anymore nvh is not worth it to me. If it wasn't for the new engine coming the 7.5 10 bolt would stay back there with the factory rubber bushings and factory floppy control arms. If you drive the factory bushing in a 1/4" farther the alignment is perfect as pictured in tokarz1 build below. As always I do appreciate your opinion Bob.
Bob, what's your or anyone elses thoughts as far as delrin lined spherical joint vs the Teflon lined that I pictured above. The reason I chose the upr spherical Teflon lined is because of the ability to tighten down with the large nut and the nut and outer edge lip is 2.235" where the hole for the upper ear is roughly 2.074". Even though every thing is a tight fit I wanted the nut there to help. I assume the upr Teflon is more a racing application and will have more nvh than the umi or spohn delrin just because of design.
I can't speak to the difference between Delrin lined and Teflon lined joints as I went straight from rubber bushings to all Delrin lined bushings. I can however speak to what adding just one control arm with straight rods ends does to NVH, it increases it exponentially... Took the wife to a cruise in yesterday and she asked several times "What is all that noise from?"
I know a lot of people with real nice PT cars with all Delrin bushings and they are completely happy. My "guess" would be the Teflon lined would be a bit more compliant than Delrin but I don't really know.
Thank you for the response Lance. I was reading back through the last couple of post and feel that my answer back to Bob might have sounded harsh, if it did that was not my intent and hope it wasn't taken that way.
To mock everything up I'm using the upr Teflon lined spherical. They are not easy to get in or out but are easier than the rubber bushings. To get the steel outer ring on the spherical joint (SJ) I had too freeze the sj and heat the ring for a nice tight fit, to say the least they are not coming apart anytime soon. To get the sj into the housing the fit is tight enough that you have to lightly hammer with a socket. Then tighten nut down and in my opinion this is not going anywhere. Upr says to put blue loctite on nut.
Just to see how it is and since it would easier to change I might try the upr sj first but that will be decided later.
Brent you and i know each other better than that. The only way we learn is asking opinion and forming our own. There are no books out there with the answers, it's trial and error for the most part.. Yes Delrin, a material that is equivalent to steel in wear quality, requires no lube per, should transfer NVH better than rubber , better than Teflon. Teflon I think has it problem with being a softer material, is less tolerable to dirt, water and wears much faster than delrin. The front LCA and front UCA bushing are white Delrin, same bushings on the car for 24 years. Last time the front suspension was 100% out of the car, 2018, I replaced all the ball joints and bought new Delrin washers from Global for the LCA location. The sleeves were still good, they take the brunt of the wear. Because i was moving the LCA pivot points at all four LCA locations to move the balljoint forward 3/4" I thought new delrin washers would be nice to have.The old washer showed some wear but the location they live in is one of the worst places to survive in a car.
My mechanical clutch linkage is rod ends, tried several quality ends, QA1, Viking, think the 2nd set way back then was an FK, all were teflon. All ended up getting dried out and replaced. Current QA1 only a couple years in and had to put a drop of oil on one already.
The 1/2" rod ends on the new three piece sway bar use nylafiber instead of Teflon and require no lube. We'll see how that goes long term.
So rubber, poly, teflon, or delrin, all personal choices and subject to end result wanted. But I do understand about keeping the wife happy. For mine it wasn't as much to do with the ride quality, it was the clutch and shifting that bothered her. It wasn't until the McLeod RST went in that things got a little better. Bob
Didn't get as much as I hoped done but there was progress. I measured atleast 3000 times and cut once. Once I put the pucks in, slide the bar through and put the axle flanges on I was within 1/32" of my outside flange to outside flange measurement (pictured), I'll take it. I measured the axle tubes and they came in at .155" thick (pictured).
From reading it seems the order you go in when welding the rearend is tubes to center section, brackets, then axle flanges. So I went ahead and welded the tubes to the center (picture), I didn't do a huge fillet weld as I was trying not to load it up with heat, I am happy with end result.
Thems some nice welds. Make sure you dig out the slag and crap from the plug welds and seal them up with some weld. Seen more than a few rears seep lube there. Is there two plugs front, one rear per side? 8.5 is that . Keep plugging away, soon time to order a drive shaft.
Thems some nice welds. Make sure you dig out the slag and crap from the plug welds and seal them up with some weld. Seen more than a few rears seep lube there. Is there two plugs front, one rear per side? 8.5 is that . Keep plugging away, soon time to order a drive shaft.
Bob
Yes, 3 plug welds every 1/3. Not sure what to do about plugs, they are hard as hell put that was just me pecking around with a hammer. I'll do some investigating on it.
Didn't get as much done as I hoped this weekend. I'm trying to time it where I'm not down more than 3-4 days between pulling 7.5 rearend, mocking up new rearend, and reinstall 7.5 rearend. This time of year I'm out in the car pretty much all weekend and don't want to cut into it much.
Plug welds on the GM rears I've seen will be oil wet from seeping. tack a pick and hammer and tap on the welds to see if there is slag. from welding. Maybe Ford had the better idea and didn't have seeping. Bob
Does anyone have opinions on gears to use? From reading around it seems like Motive might be good. People say yukon were good but has went downhill on quality last couple of years. I'm sticking with the 3.73 gear size but just wondering if anyone has recent opinions on manufacturer. I don't care to spend a little extra just too have good quality and no noise.
Spend the money to get whatever you choose REM polished is my only advice. I'm not sure what gears Gearfx used in my 3rd member but they were REM polished and broke in on a dyno and they are whisper quiet.
I put Nitro gears in my 2021 Colorado and even though they were supposedly REM polished as well, they are NOT whisper quiet...
Setup can make the biggest difference in noise, are you going to set them up or have a shop do it?
A buddy that worked on a lot of mustangs swore by the Ford Racing gears. Now, that’s been many years ago and things do change.
However, I did a quick google search and based on some of the reviews on Amazon telling how quite they are, they might be worth a look. Although you’re going to find complaints about any gear set if they’re not installed properly.
Anyway, they still Appear to be made at Ford’s Sterling Axle Plant. They also seem reasonably priced compared to the “aftermarket” gear sets.
Original owner - 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration in progress. 406 sleeper w/modified FIRST TPI, 1.875" headers and dual 3.5" Borla exhaust. TH400, Ford 9", anti-roll bar, and notched frame. Dropped 2", 18" wheels, and F/R disk brakes. 10-point cage w/swing-out bars, custom gauges, and custom, audiophile stereo system.
Spend the money to get whatever you choose REM polished is my only advice. I'm not sure what gears Gearfx used in my 3rd member but they were REM polished and broke in on a dyno and they are whisper quiet.
I put Nitro gears in my 2021 Colorado and even though they were supposedly REM polished as well, they are NOT whisper quiet...
Setup can make the biggest difference in noise, are you going to set them up or have a shop do it?
Thank you for the REM tip Lance. I actually never had heard of rem polish until your thread but had forgotten until you just now brought it up.
I'm going to do all the setup myself, that way if it's wrong I have no one to blame but myself and i like doing that stuff and learning. I saved and labeled all the carrier and pinion shims that came from it so that should give me a decent point to start at. I have everything needed except pinion depth gauge and I might have a lead on someone that would probably let me borrow it but not sure. If not I think I can get through it.
Originally Posted by BadSS
A buddy that worked on a lot of mustangs swore by the Ford Racing gears. Now, that’s been many years ago and things do change.
However, I did a quick google search and based on some of the reviews on Amazon telling how quite they are, they might be worth a look. Although you’re going to find complaints about any gear set if they’re not installed properly.
Anyway, they still Appear to be made at Ford’s Sterling Axle Plant. They also seem reasonably priced compared to the “aftermarket” gear sets.
I will say that the Ford guys swear by the Ford gears even today from what ive seen on forums, they also love the 03-04 cobra Ford Racing 31 spline traction lok with carbon fiber clutch disc, they throw in an extra disc. What's amazing to me is the cost and that's probably one reason they love it. Here is the diff, gears, and install kit all FRPP from Yates Performance for $490 and I've thought about it. track lok link
The truetrac alone is $700 which is what I plan to use but for what I use the car for the above is tempting and plenty of guys racing with over 600 h.p. on slicks in a manual with the traction lock.
The Ford Racing gears are identical to the factory gears except for the warranty on the part (the engineering numbers from a stock replacement to the Ford Racing ring and pinion gear set are the same). The warranty for the Ford gears is two years unlimited milage,but don't remember of the top of my head what the warranty is for the racing gear set.. We tell customers who want a different rear end gear to look into buying the Ford Racing gears due to the cost and have never had a issue with noise or anything as long as it's set up right. Ford updated the clutch packs and the friction modifier a while ago. The old friction modifier really smelled bad but worked great. We used to play a joke where we would put the empty bottle and hide it in the service writers desk or inside their computer and see how long it takes them to find it. The new modifier (xl-3 is the Ford part number) doesn't seem to work as well. We had some customers come back after 30000 or so miles with a shutter when turning so we put two bottles in every axle now and don't have a issue.
The Ford Racing gears are identical to the factory gears except for the warranty on the part (the engineering numbers from a stock replacement to the Ford Racing ring and pinion gear set are the same). The warranty for the Ford gears is two years unlimited milage,but don't remember of the top of my head what the warranty is for the racing gear set.. We tell customers who want a different rear end gear to look into buying the Ford Racing gears due to the cost and have never had a issue with noise or anything as long as it's set up right. Ford updated the clutch packs and the friction modifier a while ago. The old friction modifier really smelled bad but worked great. We used to play a joke where we would put the empty bottle and hide it in the service writers desk or inside their computer and see how long it takes them to find it. The new modifier (xl-3 is the Ford part number) doesn't seem to work as well. We had some customers come back after 30000 or so miles with a shutter when turning so we put two bottles in every axle now and don't have a issue.
Thanks for input Chris, I'm glad to see someone with your experience on the Ford side reply. Not sure which way I'm going to go but what's your thoughts on the 31 spline traction lock reliability with the weight of a monte 3600lbs, a 450 h.p 490 ft/lbs 383, and a tkx 5 speed for a street car on street tires with a few spirited takeoffs from time to time? What do you think of the frpp traction lock overall?
+1 for the FRPP gears. I have a bunch of Ford friends and two who used to own what was essentially a ford shop. They EXCLUSIVELY use Ford Racing gears in rear ends they built. They had noise with every other aftermarket gear.
As for the Ford clutch type Posi.. my advice (and their advice would be) is to get a Torsen T2R or an Eaton Detroit TrueTrac. The clutch packs just don't hold up for Autox/road racing/drifting. For my friends that drift, they would do 3-4 events and have an open diff, then just weld the spiders. You're right the cost is minimal, you cant swing a dead cat in a ford shop without hitting a 31 spline 8.8 Trac-lok diff. Heck, I might have one in my shop right now. I used a TrueTrac and LOVE it. You know the old addage, buy once cry once.
86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
+1 for the FRPP gears. I have a bunch of Ford friends and two who used to own what was essentially a ford shop. They EXCLUSIVELY use Ford Racing gears in rear ends they built. They had noise with every other aftermarket gear.
As for the Ford clutch type Posi.. my advice (and their advice would be) is to get a Torsen T2R or an Eaton Detroit TrueTrac. The clutch packs just don't hold up for Autox/road racing/drifting. For my friends that drift, they would do 3-4 events and have an open diff, then just weld the spiders. You're right the cost is minimal, you cant swing a dead cat in a ford shop without hitting a 31 spline 8.8 Trac-lok diff. Heck, I might have one in my shop right now. I used a TrueTrac and LOVE it. You know the old addage, buy once cry once.
The Ford Racing gears are identical to the factory gears except for the warranty on the part (the engineering numbers from a stock replacement to the Ford Racing ring and pinion gear set are the same). The warranty for the Ford gears is two years unlimited milage,but don't remember of the top of my head what the warranty is for the racing gear set.. We tell customers who want a different rear end gear to look into buying the Ford Racing gears due to the cost and have never had a issue with noise or anything as long as it's set up right. Ford updated the clutch packs and the friction modifier a while ago. The old friction modifier really smelled bad but worked great. We used to play a joke where we would put the empty bottle and hide it in the service writers desk or inside their computer and see how long it takes them to find it. The new modifier (xl-3 is the Ford part number) doesn't seem to work as well. We had some customers come back after 30000 or so miles with a shutter when turning so we put two bottles in every axle now and don't have a issue.
Thanks for input Chris, I'm glad to see someone with your experience on the Ford side reply. Not sure which way I'm going to go but what's your thoughts on the 31 spline traction lock reliability with the weight of a monte 3600lbs, a 450 h.p 490 ft/lbs 383, and a tkx 5 speed for a street car on street tires with a few spirited takeoffs from time to time? What do you think of the frpp traction lock overall?
Sorry for the long delay in the reply,I had a busy weekend! The Ford clutch packs in your rear axle would be great for a street car. If you have plans for a race car then you might want to go another route. I looked back at our shop manuals and for a 2023 Mustang you can still get clutch packs like what's in your axle unless it's the Torsen axle. Now for a 2013 Mustang there was no option for the Torsen axle ,so any Mustang would use the same factory setup that's in your axle now (other that the solid axle). The GT 500 was rated at 662 hp that year and we just don't have many problems with the factory setup plus it's very quiet. It seems most clutch packs I replace was because someone changed the fluid and didn't put any friction additive in with the fluid. My 2018 F150 has a electronic rear locking axle and I wish it still had a axle with the old clutch packs! If I was building this axle for my car I'd use the factory setup and not think twice about it. When the Indiana state police used the Crown Vic we worked on a lot of their cars because a post is nearby. Those cars got the crap beat out of them but the axles held up well.
I also remember around 2000 Ford started to use the carbon fiber clutches and we has some shutter issues so they updated the clutches again and we don't have any issues. If you're going to use the factory setup be sure to get the latest clutch packs for the axle.
I also remember around 2000 Ford started to use the carbon fiber clutches and we has some shutter issues so they updated the clutches again and we don't have any issues. If you're going to use the factory setup be sure to get the latest clutch packs for the axle.
Thank you for your valued input. The crown vic rear was a peg leg and 28 spline, no matter what I will be going 31 spline so either way truetrac or traction lok I will be getting a new differential. If I was to get the traction lok if would be this one which is a frpp. It is 31 spline with carbon fiber clutch disc.
Here is what it says comes in the frpp 3.73 install kit (1) Ford Performance Parts 3.73:1 gearset (1) Outer 2012 GT500 Style Pinion Bearing & Race (1) Inner 2012 GT500 Style Pinion Bearing & Race (1) Carrier Shim Set (1) Pinion Shim Set (2) Carrier Bearings with Races (1) Pinion Seal (10) Ring Gear Bolts (2) Crush Sleeve (2) Pinion Nut (1) Tube Gear Marking Compound (1) Cover Gasket (1) Bottle of Motorcraft Friction Modifier (2) Bottles of Royal Purple 75W140 gear oil
Still undecided but have plenty of time to think it through and what I want.
Been putting in quite a few hours at work so not had much time to work on the car. Last night I took a couple of hours and got the car in the air with the frame level side to side and the axle level side to side. I took a few measurements and recorded them but just mainly getting everything lined up. I'm hoping to finish with all my measurements Wednesday evening and pull the old rear. Thursday get the 8.8 in, measured, and brackets welded then Friday reinstall old rear and bleed brakes so it's ready to go for the weekend. That's the plan but we all know how that goes.
Two PITAs when pulling the old rear. One is the flex line. You can remove the flex line at the Tee on the housing and just let it drain all the old fluid out of the master cyl. This may be a problem when you refill the master and want to get the air out of the master and lines when reinstalling the rear. What i do,did, is make a fitting to cap the female of the flex line and avoid all that re-bleeding the air from the entire rear system. Fortunately i have a GM Tee that is used on the rear housing to connect the three brake line points. Two 3/16" line nuts and a short section of tubing crushed to close off the lines is used on the outputs of the Tee. https://www.inlinetube.com/products/ts01
The other PITA is the E-brake cables. When I remove the rear I remove the entire brake assembles and them remove the e-brake cables from the backing plates. The cable that runs over to the right side brake is the PITA to get out of you want to remove it with the rear. I found it easiest to back off the E-brake adjuster on the driver's side and then remove the cable from the backing plates. The cables have three tabs that fix them to the backing plates. I use a piece of alum tubing with the correct ID, slide it over the end of the cable and use the tubing ID to collapse the three tabs, the cable will release and slide right out of the backing plate. Reinstalling the cables is just a matter of snapping them back in the backing plates.
Just did all that yesterday. My rear is sitting on a working bench for a back to 3.73 gear change.
Being you are going to be doing the rear swap a few times, by yourself, make a cradle to support the rear from falling off the floor jack. I have a helper to get mine in and out. We are both old and as we know it's always a question of balance at our age. When we go to see doctors they always ask if we fell lately. The answer is always, NO. Even if we did have the rear almost slid off the jack. Bob
Bob, I hope it works out but my plan is just undo the 2 hard lines from the t and put a line clamp on the softline to keep it from draining the MC. I might have some caps with squeezed hard line I'll just have to see if they are the right size.
Didn't really think about the e brake cables I just figured they would be no big deal but glad you gave me a heads up. Also thanks for the reminder on being careful with the rearend as I'm always working by myself it's a challenge from time to time but if something goes wrong it's just mine and the dogs fault but he really doesn't care.
I also remember around 2000 Ford started to use the carbon fiber clutches and we has some shutter issues so they updated the clutches again and we don't have any issues. If you're going to use the factory setup be sure to get the latest clutch packs for the axle.
Thank you for your valued input. The crown vic rear was a peg leg and 28 spline, no matter what I will be going 31 spline so either way truetrac or traction lok I will be getting a new differential. If I was to get the traction lok if would be this one which is a frpp. It is 31 spline with carbon fiber clutch disc.
Here is what it says comes in the frpp 3.73 install kit (1) Ford Performance Parts 3.73:1 gearset (1) Outer 2012 GT500 Style Pinion Bearing & Race (1) Inner 2012 GT500 Style Pinion Bearing & Race (1) Carrier Shim Set (1) Pinion Shim Set (2) Carrier Bearings with Races (1) Pinion Seal (10) Ring Gear Bolts (2) Crush Sleeve (2) Pinion Nut (1) Tube Gear Marking Compound (1) Cover Gasket (1) Bottle of Motorcraft Friction Modifier (2) Bottles of Royal Purple 75W140 gear oil
Still undecided but have plenty of time to think it through and what I want.
Sorry for whatever reason I thought you had a newer axle that had the 31 spline already installed and in that case I'd just replace the clutch packs with the latest part. I went back and on page 1 you said it's from a 97 and if it's a open rear axle, you'll need a new carrier anyways. I think the complete Ford differential is the way to go. The first link from LMR looks like it's just the factory style differential. You shouldn't have any problems with that for what you're going to use the car for.
I was able to get the rear out and do some measurements on the 10 bolt and 8.8. It is 5-5 /16" from the centerline of the rearend to the centerline of the bushings (ear height) on the 10 bolt, Bob came up with 5-1/4". On the 8.8 the same measurement was 5-1/2" so the ears are a tad higher. This second picture you will notice the black dots over the dead center of the bushing that's how I measured ear width difference. The ears on the 8.8 were 10" center to center, the 10 bolt was 8"
I measured the ear angle off the back housing and I got around 43° on the 8.8 and the 10 bolt.
Sorry I'm coming late to the conversation. Was reading right at the beginning about control arm brackets, that you couldn't find them because of liability.
I found these on Amazon, says they are from Currie (Sorry if duplicate)
Currie does not sale brackets anymore. What's funny is 2 or so years ago that bracket kit was $150-$175 from Currie. They sold all their stock on brackets and the people that bought them have them almost double on Amazon and ebay. I was looking for brackets with the multiple holes and ended up finding some from Medieval Chassis.
The trick chasis 8.8 arms are for a mustang rearend with the low ears. I ended up using Spohn a body arms. Thanks for helping me look.
This is where I ended up at for the day, not as far as I hoped but it is moving along. I spent a lot of time measuring and figuring out a way to neatly mount my coilovers using their brackets. Everything in the picture is just tacked on and ready to weld. Everything fit really well so far, I ll post more pictures tomorrow and have more detail .
With the old rearend in the car I undid the drive shaft and upper arms and used a floor jack to get my pinion angle at zero, checked wheelbase. I then used a magnetic base protractor at 0° to punch a mark on each side of the frame rails to find the axle centerline. I then used a straightedge with a digital protractor at 0° to go vertical and transfer the center line point to the frame rails. I didn't have any pictures of the old rear end but here is the the marks on the new rearend which I did the same way with back machined surface at 90°.
After getting everything plumb, true, and measured 10,000 times I swung the brackets up and tacked them in place.
My main goal for this project was to have a rearend that would leave 2 black marks, handle the new engine, and have some fun while building it at a decent price. I like how my car rides and the ride height and those 2 things are important too me. One day I will probably put the fancy double adjustable lowers on the car and a fancy sway bar but for now I'm 100% happy with what I have and really would rather put money elsewhere.
With my car lowered the lower control arms point down which is not ideal. With the new brackets the top hole automatically drops the rear of the lca about 3/4" which should by my math level it out. With that said I was able to reuse my factory sway bar which is fine by me at the moment and what I want to do.
For the uca you could reuse your factory arms by figuring your pinion angle then drilling new holes to match. I did spring the extra cash for the spohn 68-72 uppers. My factory arms are 11" center to center and by the time I had my pinion angle set they were 10-5/8" center to center. In the picture below the spohn arms are not adjusted.
Here is the top view of the rearend and a picture of the a-body bump stop brackets that I cut down to look more like the g body brackets. The a body were also too big and interfered with the lca brackets.
So after lots of thought and research on the differential I decided on the 31 spline Ford traction lok. I know people love the truetrac and I can't disagree that it is a great diff but it's also hard to argue against the probably millions of traction loks on the street and a lot of guys on other forums love them and swear by them. I talked to 2 different guys at work that drive their cars in the same manner as me with the traction lok and have no complaints. After I went through the list of some of the cars that have the exact diff with the carbon fiber disc I figured it will work perfect for me. This was not an easy decision but I feel like the best fit for me and yes cost had a small part but not much, the FRPP shipped to the door with taxes was $532 the truetrac with install kit and Ford gear shipped to door with taxes would be $1102. Here is what is included ( copy and pasted from Ford) and a few pictures of the stuff from the FRPP package. I also stayed with the 3.73 gear.
•Entire Kit is ALL Genuine Ford Racing
FRPP M-4204-F318C Traction Lok Differential •Fits ALL 8.8 differentials with a 31 Spline Axles •Will accept anti-lock exciter ring, •Traction-Lok limited-slip differential •Fits Solid or (IRS) independent rear suspension •Includes Carbon Fiber Clutch Plates for increased durability •Original equipment in 2003-04 Mustang Cobra •Requires 4-ounces of CM-19546-A1 friction modifier with initial fill
FRPP M-4209-88373 Ring & Pinion Gears • Includes Ford Pinion Nut • Includes Ford Crush Sleeve • Made by Ford Racing •No one does 8.8" gears better than Ford Racing...stonger and quieter. •The 8.8" rear end has been the standard in performance since its introduction in the Mustang in 1986 and Ford Racing is the manufacturer of choice when it's time to hop-up your axle. •Made in the United States at Ford's Sterling Axle Plant (competitors in this price range are primarily produced in China) •OEM quality - our superior surface finish, hardening, and manufacturing consistency provide the strongest and quietest 8.8" gears in the market! These are the same units that have 100,000 mile warranties in our production cars. Higher quality gears means more satisfied customers! •Race Proven - Ford Racing 8.8" gears are the choice of championship road racing and drag racing teams including Multimatic Motorsports and Kurgan Motorsports.
FRPP M-4210-B2 Ring & Pinion Installation Kit • Excellent upgrade for all 8.8" rear ends through 2014. Does not fit 2015+ • High-torque bearing gives added durability for modified vehicles • Contains all components from M-4210-A plus all differential bearings Includes: -2012 Shelby GT500 high-torque pinion bearing -Pinion and carrier shims -Crush sleeve -Pinion nut -Pinion seal -Ring gear bolts -Mustang GT carrier bearings -Gear-marking compound -Cover gasket
Any thoughts on the best paint or paint application for the rearend? I want either satin or low gloss black would be idea, I don't care much for gloss.
Man has it gone up over the past couple years, but even with it being expensive, the semi-gloss black POR-15 is a super tough coating. Highly scratch and chemical resistant. It might be a little too glossy for you tough. Maybe the POR-15 as a base coat then use the Satin Black Epoxy VHT Roll Bar and Chassis aerosol paint as a thin "top coat" to knock off the sheen? The VHT epoxy is pretty tough and one my favorites, but that POR-15 is on a level by itself.
Did my 8 1/2 with POR right over the cast and bare steel in 2002. My rear was also sandblasted to bare and shiny prior. Don't even think there was a choice between gloss or semi from POR back then, only gloss, and there was no real products marketed as chassis paints either.
After it's initial POR coating 2002 later when the 4.11s went in, 2016, I just washed the bare housing with a good bath of soap and water and sprayed it with my favorite black paint, Rust-Oleum Prof HP enamel gloss black right over the old POR coating. And it looked exceptional. That paint line was only a couple colors back then, no satin but now has a Satin black. What i find is you drive the car a 1000 miles and the gloss black rear gets road film on it and is not longer just a pretty shiny thing under there. Very easy to wash and make pretty again if a pretty rear is the priority.
The 8 1/2" is now sitting on the bench taken apart for the third time and the paint finish on it still looks very good. Yes there are some scratches from jackstands under the tubes, stone chips. Once the rear is all back together and before install back in the car it will get the soap, brush and water treatment sitting on the shop floor. Will only take that spray can of Prof gloss black and spot paint the area around the girdle to prevent some surface rusting of the ARP bolt heads and where you need to scrap to get a cover gasket seal. The rest of the rear paint areas have held up exceedingly well. I credit the first coat of POR done on the rear 20+ years and 40K miles ago for still being the good base coat it was. Bob
Lance, Kevin, and Bob, thanks for the feedback and if anyone else has any suggestions on rearend paint I would love to hear it.
When I started this rearend I was going to order the Strange s60 and it was going to be between $3800- $4000 shipped to door give or take a few options. My goal with my very quick and rough math at the start of this was $2000. If it looked like it was going to creep any where near $3000 or above my thought was go ahead and spring the extra and get the s60. I understand 100% with this build that it is no s60 or 9". I do feel 100% that this rearend is enough and then some for me. It's a rearend that will be fine if I eventually decide to throw a run or 2 at the drag strip or autox. I should have everything welded on Monday or Tuesday and then I will get into gear set up and order the axles. Right now all that is left to buy for the rearend is axles ($380-$400), Inner seals ($30), and Paint (?). Here is the cost to build the rearend so far and the prices include tax and shipping. I'm not including fluid, spherical bushings, or upper arms since that was needed for any other option.
Housing $80 Sandblast $50 Coil spring pads $47 Control arm brackets $111 Housing ends. - T bolts. - Bearings. - Spacers - last 4 combined for $333 Bumpstops and brackets $54 Oil slinger washer for pinion bearing $8 Solid pinion spacer $17 Ring and pinion - Traction lok. - Install kit - last 3 combined for $532 Upr girdle $150
Total so far is $1382
So for rearend assembly I should be right around my goal when done and maybe a little less.
Crazy what car parts cost these days but with some very good skills that you've shown that 8.8 junk yard axle turns out to be a sweet bang for the buck.
Crazy what car parts cost these days but with some very good skills that you've shown that 8.8 junk yard axle turns out to be a sweet bang for the buck.
Well done.
Thank you Ron! Do you have any experience with certain frame or rearend paints?
I've had a couple chassis repaints over the years and had some great results with a few different paints. POR as a base coat with top coat due to a lack of UV resistance, Sem rust trap and VHT as mentioned. My next go around I will use Eastwood ceramic chassis black 2K. It's a two part system and you need a spray gun for it. If I had to use a can, VHT chassis and roll cage paint, it's thick, lays down great, and is tuff when cured.
When i did my first POR long time ago, they sold 6 packs of little cans, maybe 4 oz, and bought a qt of their Metal Prep which is a zinc phosphate wash. I think the Metal Prep is a good thing but last time just bought a pint of POR and have used it over very clean steel with out Prep. One of my "cleaners" is muriatic acid (hydrochloric), always have a gallon in the shop. A flash wash with acid, a good water rinse, an air gun and sometimes a hot air dryer gun to prevent a surface rust film which can appear quickly on some irons. Then POR right over the bare steel. It's a question of "tooth" and the steel. Cast iron good tooth, sand blasted steel tubing, may also be OK.
Years ago bought a 16 oz of POR and found after you remove several oz and then let it sit for a long time the top of the liquid will "skin" rock hard. What i do now is just keep transferring the remainder of the POR after use using into a smaller container and fill that to the top, no air. Have used POR a dozen times.
I brushed on POR, you will find on a smooth surface it's hard to hide brush strokes, and POR will be thin in places. Two coats is needed.
OH, wear gloves. POR and skin go together very well. You won't get if off for a long period of time if it gets close to drying. Man it's good stuff. Bob
I finally was able to get everything welded and all went well. Welds are structurally sound but some I'm not real thrilled about. I had the wire speed too high and they were humped up a little more than I would like. The ends I tig welded. Nothing bad enough to grind out and will look just fine once painted. I would have tiged the whole thing but it's such a slow process that with me doing it would have put what I felt was too much heat in the axle tubes. Hopefully be able to order axles in the next day or 2. I have an issue with brake to frame clearance with my car being so low but I'll post on it in the nest day or so.
Next issue is ls1 brake clearance in the rear, I knew this would be an issue so it is what it is. My car is pretty low, and I like how it rides and sits so raising it to get around this issue was not the answer for me. The 2 options I do have is either a hard stop mounted to the frame or notch the frame. I'm thinking notch the frame but only a small area just for brake clearance so everything can move as it wants to. With my car at ride height the top of the axle tube is 2-3/4" away from the frame. My older stock bump stops were only maybe 1/2" from the frame and now I've put a little shorter stop on. To get the bleed screws to hit I had to remove the new bump stops and compress the the pinion stop as far as I could. I don't think it would ever get that far but I'm not going to find out, I would rather be safe than sorry. First picture is with the bleeder touching, bumpstops removed, and pinion stop compressed to the point that the rear would pickup off the jack stands, you can see caliper touching behind my thumb knuckle. At the moment the rearend fab is done i just need to setup gears, paint, order axles and get brake lines done. To be able to enjoy my car and not be rushed the old rearend is back in the car and I had the car back out for an evening cruise Tuesday.Any other ideas or comments let me know.
So...been there, done that with brake caliper clearance issues. I can say with certainty extending the bumpstop to contact the axle earlier is not the ideal solution. Hitting the bumpstop takes the spring rate to infinity and WILL upset the car if any kind of lateral load is on the tires during the event.
Not being completely familiar with the LS1 setup, is it possible to switch the brake backing plates side to side and mount the caliper forward and down? That is how I got my Explorer brake package to clear the frame and also the method I used for my Stoptech calipers. There seems to be a bit more frame clearance in front of the axle than there is behind it.
So...been there, done that with brake caliper clearance issues. I can say with certainty extending the bumpstop to contact the axle earlier is not the ideal solution. Hitting the bumpstop takes the spring rate to infinity and WILL upset the car if any kind of lateral load is on the tires during the event.
Not being completely familiar with the LS1 setup, is it possible to switch the brake backing plates side to side and mount the caliper forward and down? That is how I got my Explorer brake package to clear the frame and also the method I used for my Stoptech calipers. There seems to be a bit more frame clearance in front of the axle than there is behind it.
Thanks for the input Lance! I'll look into that, if it does work I would probably be able to use all the original ls e- brake cable mounts as the ls brakes were originally front mounted and the cables pull from the rear. In hindsight I should have played more with caliper orientation before welding on ends but I went with it knowing there was an issue an would no matter what work my way out of it. If it doesn't work I have no problem notching the frame for caliper clearance, I'll keep everyone up to date.
I've been working a lot of hours so not much to update. I did come across a solution for the ebrake cable mount at the caliper while searching for ideas. The mount is made for 10/12 bolt rear ls brake swaps. Since I'm using the 10/12 bolt flange pattern I can make these work. I will have to clearance a little from the bracket because of the Ford big bearing and due to clearancing I am going to add a small brace on the bracket but I definitely think this is a great bolt on solution for anyone with a 10/12 bolt wanting to run rear ls brakes . While searching I found that the guy selling them on ebay is/was a member on here http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=3512 Sorry for the blurry 2nd picture and the 3rd picture is from his ebay add ebay bracket link
Still working on details but I'm slowly chipping away. I have another non car shop toy on the way so I've been clearing room for it, been trying to get going on some details for a detached garage, and dealing with all the interesting people on Facebook selling my camper which is gone now. So this is as far as I've got.
I didn't want to spend the money and mess with a 3/16" tubing bender and flaring tool so I ordered the Monte carlo ss brake lines from inline tube $34 from ebay brake lines The 8.8 and 7.5 10 bolt were close enough in shape that I knew I could make it look decent and functional. I did have to cut, weld, and tap a tab for the rubber brake hose $16 brake hose to solid line mount.
I welded 2 a-body brake line axle tabs $20 to the axle tubes axle tabs and fabbed up some tabs to go from solid line to the stoptech 98-02 caliper line. A local place in town will do the Flare for me. Here's a few pictures.
I was also able to get the e brake cable mount sorted out. I was just using the crusty ls brake cables to test it out and plan to use all new Monte Carlo ss e brake lines and cables as I have a plan on how to make them work like factory.
It's probably not the best solution to the problems but so far I'm mostly happy with it. Still not happy with the welds but it is what it is.
Well ran into a little trouble today on the brake line. I ordered 3/16 stainless monte carlo lines, my plan was to cut the double inverted flare off, put the m10x1.0 98-02 ls1 camaro bubble flare end on. I went to 3 different places in town and they all tried the bubble flare on the stainless and it went bad every time. I just spent $30 more to order regular brake lines for the Monte so the $33 ss lines are a waste. SS brake lines sounded nice but more trouble than there worth. Lesson learned!
Edit to the above. While going to pick my new garage toy up I found a place near by and the guy was able to bubble flare my lines, best part he didn't charge me anything. Now all the brake line stuff is out of the way. I panicked to soon but luckily both places I ordered from were able to cancel my order.
Off topic but I have been wanting to delve into machining and eventually once I build my skills do some small steam engine stuff. My new Precision Mathews 1022v lathe isn't the biggest 10" dia x 22" long is all it will turn. I didn't buy it for the automotive hobby but it will help. I've had about 10 different things made here lately by friends helping me out and this could have done everyone of them. Now back to the regular schedule rearend program.
I think it was just last week we talked about that lathe. It took longer for me to get two bearings from Idaho via UPS than have that lathe shipped from Pittsburgh. Might say something about Matthew's as a business. I think you will be more than happy with the size.
Stainless brake lines. I think in most cases it's the way to go but sure can be a PITA to need to bend, flare and make leak proof. When a line lock was added to the 86 it was laid on top the proportioning valve. Classic Tube stainless lines had previously been installed everywhere. The mating of the line lock to the prop valve required six stainless, intrigue double flares. I learned a lot about stainless 3/16" tubing.
Available today is the copper/nickle line, have used it many times, makes braking lines much easier to do. I would just use stone guard on it where exposed. Just like the factory lines. By the way you can give credit to Volvo for the copper/nickle. They got tired of the steel lines rotting in short order in Scandinavia. Now most European cars are using it. And it can be polished pretty. I saw it being used on a Schwartz chassis Did a brake line replacement on an older Dodge truck, bubbles original. Bought adapters that allowed bubble to mate to double, and used copper/nickle.
First time i saw copper/nickle was when I used it for 1/2" fuel lines in the 86, instead of alum or steel or stainless tubing. Only FedHill was importing copper/nickle from Europe at one time, calling it Cunifer. Now every parts house has China copper/nickel brake line to sell. It's about all the garages use anymore. Easy to do any flare, even bubble. You just need to buy a very expensive tool to do the bubbles well. https://store.fedhillusa.com/
E-brake. I think you packaged a setup that finally passed my approval, good job. Being stick cars we know how important the e-brake is. Bob
I've not got much done lately but today I was able to get a few coats of the gloss black por 15 on the housing. After seeing the rearend in gloss black I'm glad I'm covering it with chassis satin black, not a fan of the gloss but that's just me.
I mic'd all my carrier and pinion shims tonight and wrote the measurements on them, I think it will help it go quicker when I do get to it. I clearanced my pinion set up bearing to slide on pinion and lightly ran a file over the back of ring gear to make sure there were no burs. Hopefully get it setup this weekend.
The first time I did the 8.5 the insides I brush painted with Rustoleum Damproof primer. That qt of quality enamel primer i store bought 20 years ago. They now call it Industrial. I would say it''s near Glyptal in character. My Dart block is entirely glyptal, Tom's ZZ4 also, got a qt at Eastwood at dented price, cheap. https://www.rust-oleum.eu/product/769-damp-proof-rust-primer
On Weds the parts got their final cleaning, and the pinion is now in it's final resting place. Seal is in and 19"on the bearings, 125 on the big nut. Bolted the pinion depth gauge into the carrier for the last time just to verify all the tomfoolery done to figure out the pinion shim was just that. The + or - .005" of the pinion head thickness makes it hard to set something to .001. Carrier shims tweaking to shoot for .007" BL and .008"-010" preload. As you will find out that's the PITA . Both numbers i think are possibly compromised. You give a little to get a little. Hoping to have the carrier caps torqued for the last time tomorrow afternoon.
By the way, a red driven gear is going in, the gray coming out. Bob
I mic'd all my carrier and pinion shims tonight and wrote the measurements on them, I think it will help it go quicker when I do get to it. I clearanced my pinion set up bearing to slide on pinion and lightly ran a file over the back of ring gear to make sure there were no burs. Hopefully get it setup this weekend.
Coming right along and looking good!! Best of luck this weekend.
Got to use the lathe for my first auto thing. The handle on the race driver was way to short so I had a scrap piece of 6061 that I took a few minutes to turn down on the end. There are other ways to get around this but it was nice having it to make it easier.
I misplaced my pinion spacer so I needed to figure out a starting point. My local lead on a pinion depth gauge didn't work out so I figure I would try the ratech pinion depth tool. After using it I would not waste the $25 if I had to do it again, in my opinion it's hard to get a dead on accurate read with the setup using a dial caliper to find depth and the pinion gear head is not machined flat. I preloaded the pinion bearing to 20in/lbs and tried out the tool.
Using the tool and the math I came up with a not very confident .030" pinion spacer. Out of curiosity in the 31 page ford gear install manual ( M-4209-8.8 8.8 Ring and Pinion Installation INSTRUCTION SHEET https://performanceparts.ford.com/download/instructionsheets/FORDINSTSHTM-4209-8.PDF ) it says if you have any questions call the Ford Racing technical line so I figured I would see what they say. What seemed to be a really knowledgeable guy said on the 8.8 when you have no pinion spacer to start with go with a .028" shim and then read your pattern from there. He also said if I had any questions to email a picture of the pattern and they would get me going the right way. Never been a Ford guy but seems their Ford Racing tech line is pretty handy. After the ratech tool an talking to him I figured I would just start with the .030" pinion shim.
Even using the expensive pinion depth tool the top of the GM pinion gear was a + or - .005", a near .010" difference on the depth. Made it a guessing game to configure the shim needed. The GM pinion gear had no marking, indicator for installed depth. The original .039" shim I saved from the original factory install and reused it when i did the reinstall of the 3.73. Because that 3.73 set was well seasoned, many miles, the ring gear teeth are polished and some steel is gone on both gears. I tried less shim thicknesses and found just throw the original .039 in and be done with it. A pattern check says they are OK. Backlash set it on the tighter side at .0065, Again cause the set is well seasoned, no more run-in wear.
The 4.11 yukon I just pulled out did have a pinion depth number on the head, it ended up being the original .039" plus a .007" additional shim. The T&S tool made that setup easy. And that gear set had great wear patterns on both the drive and coast at 15k miles.
Make sure the pinion depth shim seats nicely on the gear. The GM .039 shim has tabs in the center that touch the gear to set the side play, slop. The tabs become bent up to compensate for the radius of the bevel on the pinion when that shim gets crushed by the bearing install. Most aftermarket shims don't have tabs in the center and the shims ID is not sloppy on the gears. When you install the bearing the inner area contacting the bevel gets distorted. To get a .037 need several thin shims. The factory .039 was the way to go,. Would have been nice to have a .037 factory to try though. Later found a pinion shim kit for the 8 1/2" 92244512, to late now.
Thought the same thing about that Ratech, lucky for me i can borrow a T&S. Bob
After coming up with a pinion shim starting size and setting pinion preload I needed to install the gear on the carrier. The gear on carrier is a slight press fit but I don't have a press at the moment so I put the carrier in the deep freezer and ring gear in a 300° toaster for a little while and they went right together and I tightened the ring gear bolts to 100 ft/lbs.
The original carrier shims were .259+.030=.289 on the driver side and a .285 on the passenger side for a total of .574. I figured I would start with that so I put the .289 on the drive side and while trying to hammer in the passenger side single .285 cast iron shim it broke in about 4 pieces. If carrier shims are unknown ford says to achieve 0 bearing preload then add .006 to each for a total of .012 bearing preload. "Ford Rearend guys" say to use a feeler gauge size the same as one of your shims, in my case a .017 feeler is what I picked. You keep stacking shims in until you get a drag on the .017 feeler ,remove your feeler , replace with a .017 shim and you are supposedly at 0 carrier bearing preload. Then I hammered a .012 shim in for the preload. I ended up with a total of .538 carrier shims. The carrier will not come out by hand at this point and needs to be pryed out gently with 2 pry bars.
The first time I set it up I had 20 in/lbs of pinion bearing preload (ford says 16-28 in/lbs on new bearings), .030 pinion shim, a safe .259 shims on the drive side and .279 shims on the passenger side. I checked the backlash and It was at .015" (Ford says .008-.012). My shims were one single .259 on drive side and on passenger side it consisted of .104, .104, .021, .021, .017, .012 .
So a couple of days ago when I was doing all this I tried all kinds of different combinations just to see how it all moved around as far as the pattern and what effects everything had on each other and for some reason I like to punish myself. The gear marking compound was garbage. I tried everything the internet has to offer to make it better as far as thinning with oil, putting it on heavier, put it on lighter, put more pressure on pinion while turning ring gear and nothing worked to help with a clear pattern from the gear. I can see a pattern but it is very faint, at this point I think I have it where I want it but will hopefully know for sure when the gm marking compound gets here. I'm just not confident enough until I can really see it. I thought it could be something else going on but after reasearch everyone that had the same looking gear as me fixed it by getting better marking compound. The pictures below are not mine but show the difference in marking compounds. The before picture is exactly how my gear looked as far as compound, if you look really hard or when shinning a flash light you could see a faint pattern.
As I said earlier I'm pretty sure I had an acceptable pattern but i can never leave well enough alone so I went to my thickest pinion shim setup and figured I would work my way down just so I could watch how every move affects the pattern. I've watched a lot of setup videos and assumed that all gears are created equal. While making moves to backlash and pinion I noticed my pattern wasn't moving like I thought it should based on some of the YouTube videos I watched and some things I've read.
So that sent me down another rabbit hole where I found out about face hobbing (2 cut) and face milling (5 cut) and how the different processes require different moves to effect the pattern. The gist of it is that hob milling is a more efficient method and also produces quieter gears but it's a very expensive machine to do it and that's why mainly oems use it and a lot of the aftermarket gears are face milled due to the high machine cost. Interestingly Ford now produces the newer 8.8 gear sets being hobb milled and due to issues in the machining process the 9" gears are face milled. Interesting stuff that could throw a person for a loop. Here is a great ford article on the subject https://www.diyford.com/ford-axle-ring-pinion-assembly-guide/ .
Here is a interesting diagram
Here is pictures of my gear setup so far as moving from the largest pinion spacer I have going down until I get where I need. The first pattern is .037 pinion spacer, .010 backlash. Drive
Coast
The next setup I went too was .034 pinion spacer and .009 backlash. Drive
Coast
The new gm marking compound works great. I only tried those 2 patterns and ran out of time last night. Hopefully I will have time to continue mid week with moving the pattern out of the root. Any discussion, conversation, or adivce on this topic would be appreciated.
I'm continuing my gear install, the last pattern I posted above was .034" pinion shim with .009" backlash. This is the pattern I just came up with a .032" pinion shim and .009" backlash. I don't feel like there is much movement of the pattern between the .034" and .032" shim. My next move due to the shims I have is a .029" pinion shim and we will see what happens. Drive with .032 shim
I'm really wanting to try a .030 or .031 pinion shim and I can't achieve it with the shims I have so I ordered more which will be here Saturday morning. Ford says on my gears .008-.012 backlash. Last picture above was a true .0065" backlash so with my available shims I opened the back lash up to .010" with the previous .029" pinion shim and below is the pattern. I feel like it didn't have move effect on the drive but did move the pattern towards the heel on the coast. Drive
Quick update, after going through the patterns and reading online I'm a little confused by pattern movement and how it moves. I have time and want this done right so I figured I would call the Ford Performance tech line to see what they thought. They gave me their gear gurus email kkot@ford.com and told me he was the man on anything ford gear related and he would get me set. We have been swapping back a few emails of pictures and specs of gear patterns that he ask for and now awaiting his answer.
I finally ordered my axles from Strange yesterday so now I have every piece to assemble my rearend. Here should be the final cost breakdown if someone did this themselves. The numbers below are with tax and shipping.
Housing $80 Sandblast $50 Coil spring pads $47 Control arm brackets $111 Housing ends, T bolts, Bearings, Spacers $333 Bumpstops and brackets $54 Oil slinger washer for pinion bearing $8 Solid pinion spacer $17 Ring and pinion, Traction lok, Install kit $532 Upr girdle $150 Por 15 and VHT chassis black $52 Axles and wheel studs $386 Time $$$$$$$$$$$$'
After going through all the patterns Ken Kot from Ford felt .032 pinion shim and .009 backlash was good. Not the one I would have chose, I felt like the pattern was a little to close to the root but I'll go with him as I'm pretty sure he has a little more knowledge and experience than me. One thing I have seen is that ford gear setup patterns across the web are not very consistent and everyone says with ford gears you have to be way off before they make noise.
So I used the por15 and vht chassis black on the rear end and the next phase of this is the brakes. You can't buy new rear calipers but I pulled a good set at the yard but am still going to rebuild them. My question is what is a good caliper paint?
Thanks for all the suggestions on caliper paint, lol. I ended up using the vht satin black brake paint, we will see how it holds up over time. I have everything painted and should be able to rebuild the calipers tomorrow.
I typically use a self-applying Iron Oxide or Aluminum Oxide coating on my chassis parts. It's self etching and coats fully over time. There's a version of it that coats faster and thicker using various salts as an extra activator, but that's not available in my area and I hear other guys have lots of issue with that version.
My stuff just isn't nice enough to need anything else
Shawn
'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
As a high heat black paint in an almost satin finish I've used the Krylon Barbecue Black 1618 high heat spray many times. All the cast iron and alum brake drums have had it, the 86's Wilwood front calipers, my woodstove and the 8" steel flue pipe right off the top of the stove, the rearward side of the 86"s stainless mufflers even have that paint on them. Great high heat durable paint, a little less than satin when new painted. I should buy a couple cans before that paint disappears. https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/DC_1618
So this is off topic a little and I should probably start a ls1 brake thread but I'll just put it here. With a lot of my threads I know it's stuff that other people did 20 years ago but most of the threads the pictures are gone and sometimes there might be a new product out there so I go ahead and post it. I have around $470 in the complete package and still need pads and figure out a few small details on the e brake. I guess a comparable kit would be would be the ford Explorer 11" rear kit from Strange for $673. The ls1 package is 12" rotor.
I was able to pull the brakes off a 02 camaro at pull a part for $35. Usually they would be $65 separate but the guy rung the 8.8 housing and brakes up as a complete rearend for $115.
I had all the pieces sandblasted and then I painted them with the vht caliper satin black. You spray them, let dry over night, then bake at 200° for 1 hour. I like the finish and after everything cooled it was a hard coating. The pistons and bores were in good shape so I just reused them. The gm rebuild kit (12530687) is what I used and the new bleeder screws were master pro (h-9407-2). I used this http://installuniversity.com/ls1/install-documents/brake-caliper-rebuild/brake-caliper-rebuild.html as a guide for rebuilding calipers and the technique to get the boots installed.
Waiting on axles from Strange, should be here hopefully this week so I can do the final mock up on everything one last time then put it together hopefully for good. This project has moved kind of slow based off of me only getting a couple of hours here and there to work on it due to lots of work hours and since it's not causing any summer driving downtime I'm in no hurry. Probably won't actually install till the week I'm on vacation at the end of August. Just giving an update.
You're almost done. All the hard work, thinking,is done, just some wrenching left to do. Do a pinion angle measurement before you pull the 7 1/2". Also do the LCA angles before pulling the rear. Once you pull the 7 1/2 there is no turning back.
I know how important it is to have good bleeders on calipers and wheel cyl's. And also important to keep the junk,,dirt/ and water, out of them. Bought several rubber covers for them over the years, rubber on most i bought just doesn't last long, think they were Dorman or HELP. When I did the Wilwood D52 calipers up front made a trip to the Honda bike dealer and bought 4 (two bleeders each caliper) 43353-461-771 bleeders. They were used on the race bikes and a little pricey. In 2016 20 bucks for 4. But 8 years and still look like new.
Thanks for the LS rear brake swap info. M-a-y-b-e someday I will duplicate your install. Bob
Bob, you ever want to do ls brakes just let me know. I have some freshly sandblasted backing plates and e brake cable mounts sitting on a shelf with your name on them that i pulled just to have on hand. The backing plates are getting hard to find and the ones on ebay are around $300 so if found in a yard i pull and keep for just in case.
Finally recieved my axles from Strange engineering yesterday. Just to throw a few things out there the cost of the axles shipped to the door were $434.84 so that took the rearend total too $1872 so far. I've not put them in to verify fit yet but If you were to order these exact axles using the strange order form this is what it would look like. The first letter in each line goes with their order form, here is the link to that form. https://www.strangeengineering.net/forms/custom-axle-order-form/
5 on 4 3/4 bolt pattern with m12 screw in studs A brake hub register 2.780" B bearing shoulder/stop 2.625" C axle overall length 27.75" D axle flange diameter 5.850" F axle offset (ls1 brake offset) 2.740"
I almost went with 1/2" wheel studs but didn't want to go through the hassle, if I ever decide on 1/2" I'll drill and tap. Originally I was going to get the second bolt pattern on the flange drilled and tapped for the 1/2" stud but with the bearing retainer you will need the hole in your flange to tighten it down. Axle flange from Strange is usually 6.245" but Strange rep said they always recommend cutting it down to 5.850" for the ls1 disc brakes. Hopefully find time on Monday or Tuesday to get the rearend finally put together.
Converting to 1/2" stud would have been unnecessary, unwanted. It just complicates the front studs, wheels, lug nuts. If you think stockish 12 mm studs are unsatisfactory just install 12 mm ARP studs. Is there a reason to go threaded studs instead of press in?
I do know finding proper length studs can be a problem. And also finding the correct length with the correct knurl can be difficult. All the studs on my 86 are not stock anymore.
That's really a good price on custom axles. A set of Mosers for an 8 1/2" are 320 a set.
Bob, I felt the 1/2" was overkill for my purpose and rep didn't see the need either. Honestly, I wasn't really thinking about screw in or press in and was taken by surprised when ask so I ask the rep what he felt was best and he said they always recommend screw in. May regret the decision but at this point I'll live with it.
Well, my hunt for a press proved fruitless yesterday and today but another coworker has one I can use I just have to wait till next week as he is on vacation. I would have bought one but I just don't have the room for something that big that I wouldn't use much. I'll update when the time comes.
I still haven't gotten the axle bearings pressed on as I still haven't found a press to borrow. It looks like I will have to pay someone to do it which I hate because I worry that people won't take the care like I would but it's part of it.
Not having a press is one thing holding it up but the main thing is I've been bitten by the .0001" bug. The machining part has really taken a hold of me and getting ready to buy a milling machine. It hasn't help with my motivation to get the rearend done that I have a completely functioning car which I've been driving and enjoying a lot lately. Everything is still good on the rearend part I will just have to get to it soon.
Finally got tired of the run around and dead ends on a press and just spent $275 and got one today. I figured I'll use it on this project then sale it when done. Everything lined up like it was supposed too. Here is the order of how everything goes on when using the ls1 brakes.
Here is a picture with everything bolted in.
Everything is pressed on except the "wedding ring" . They say they are a bear to press on and to test fit before pressing on. I was getting ready to press on when I got a surprise call from my machinist, here is a picture and more on that later probably in another thread.
Looks great, I don’t think you could have bought one that nice! Also a great thread, straight on point and some good info for my 12 bolt with the brake set up, thx.
Those Scat parts are great for the money. I have a 396 SBC with those parts.
The wedding rings are no joke to press on nor to cut off. Good on you to test fit everything first. Looking great...
Kind of the rule of thumb I've always heard was for every 1" diameter its .001" for press fit. The axle is 1.565" diameter. The bearing was right at .002" undersize for press fit and the "wedding ring" is a little under .008" undersize for press fit. That's a heck of a press fit.
Looks great, I don’t think you could have bought one that nice! Also a great thread, straight on point and some good info for my 12 bolt with the brake set up, thx.
Those Scat parts are great for the money. I have a 396 SBC with those parts.
Thanks for the compliments Ron! With how I use my car and being able to complete it at the budget I set for myself I'm more than happy with how it turned out.
August 25th 2023 will be known from here on out as the "Battle of the Solid Pinion Spacer" I won in the end but it was a hard fought battle and my cell phone was a $200 casualty. The solid spacer was off ebay but came directly from quick performance but it was the cheapest at the time so I guess I get what I paid for. Main reason I was using solid spacer is the serviceability of it if needed.
Ford says 16-28 ft/lbs of rotational drag on pinion, I crushed the sleeve to 22 ft/lbs drag so I could get a measurement for the solid spacer. I went to put the spacer over pinion shaft and the id was too small on the 2 pieces but the shims would fit. I took some measurements and headed to the lathe to bore them out .005"
Next, I took my 2 pieces and shim that equaled the crush sleeve thickness and installed but I never could get the any preload on the bearings. After measuring and trying 2 or 3 times I realized the spacer didn't have a chamfer to clear the radius where it sits so it was keeping the spacer raised. I didn't bore the chamfer away as there was never one there.
I decided to flip the whole spacer over but the od was to big so it would rest on the bearing cage so it would only turn one way so back to the lathe for a chamfer.
With the width of the Solid spacer and the shims that were supplied i was no where near the size of the crush sleeve. My rotational drag was at either 14 ft/lbs or 30 ft/lbs. So back to the Lathe to face off .008" to get it to work with one of the shims to be the same width as the crush sleeve.
After all that I finally was able to get the rotational torque to 22 ft/lbs. Here is a quick video of a torque wrench spinning around lol, The blue tape is 22 ft/lbs. Next I was able to get rid of the setup bearings and press the new bearings on.
[video:youtube][/video]
During all this one end of the rearend slipped of the jackstand and fell on my phone. That cost me. $200 and 3 hours of my day to get fixed.
It's funny how something so simple can really make it difficult on a person. At the end of the day the solid spacer lost the war.
Dang it son. The lathe and press are coming in handy. Hate it about the cellphone. Looks like it won't be long going under the car now!!!!
I should get $50 +taxes back on the press today. Harbour Freight put the press on sale for $199 yesterday and if anything goes on sale that you bought within 30 days you bring your receipt in and get the difference back. It's alot smaller than I thought so I'll probably just keep it. The lathe has been great so far and I plan to purchase a milling machine right after the first of the year.
Didn't have all those problems with the Ratech spacer you had but in order to get the correct preload there was not an available spacer/shim combo that would land me at 19". A new full sheet of 400 sandpaper, and a lot of time block sanding .002" off the spacer to reduce it's thickness to what I needed for the 19" preload. Always fun playing with car.
My son's cell phone of years died the other day. I'm tired of listening to his end of life as they know it story. My flip phone's only responsibility is to phone a friend when i don't know how to get home. That's an old person thing. Bob
So while I was putting everything together I felt that there was a little rough spot in one of the pinion bearings while rotating. I had a spare inner pinion bearing (the mock up) so I put it on and no change. I took the outer pinion bearing and could barley feel it. I assume most people would not worry about it but I didn't care much for it. I ordered a new Timken m88048 bearing which should be here Friday morning. The more I messed with the Ford pinion yoke i didn't care for it either so I ordered a new 1350 style pinion yoke from Denny's and recieved it yesterday. Hopefully Friday or Saturday I can have this rear all the way together.
I had a big long thing with some details typed up but lost it while switching screens, ill retype tomorrow. Here is some pictures to get us by til then. What I started with.
So I added the 1350 forged pinion yoke kit from dennys just because the more I messed with it I didn't care for the Ford flange, the yoke kit is $122. It's listed at $134 so not sure but I was only charged the $122.
Not sure what was going on but that damn solid pinion spacer had something weird going on and never could pin point it. I ended up putting a crush sleeve in and crushing til pinion preload was 26 in/lbs. (FORD says 16-28 in/lbs) Metalic noise and very very slight rotational binding was gone. I even tried all new bearings and they acted the same with solid pinion spacer. Crush Sleeve will do just fine, only reason I was using solid is for serviceability down the road. Mustangs with way more power doing just fine on the crush sleeve.
I originally set the rear up with .008" backlash (Ford says .008"-.012") when checking in 4 different spots I got down to .0065" in one spot and around .007" in another. I swap shims around and now my backlash in 5 spots reads .0115", .012", .011", .010", .010". Which are within the Ford specs. Final pinion shim size was .032". For the carrier shims I ended up with .267" on drive side and .271" on passenger side. I checked the pattern a couple of places one last time and it was still exactly the pattern that Ford's Ken Kot said was a good pattern so we shall see.
Heck it's beyond sweet, too bad it's not a GM 12 bolt rear with Ford ends.... You know, then it would be perfect... I'll copy that rear bearing and brake set up soon though. I need to get new solid axles for my 12 bolt rear and strip it down and freshen it up for the LS7 & 6L80E swap.
Well would you look at that!!! Good job getting that all together... It looks fantastic. When will it be installed and test driven?
It could be as early as next week or as late as mid to late October. I need to change out the proportioning valve, order a new driveshaft and also need to put some small notches in the frame for the bleeder screws when i install. Due to my car being low my bleeder screw could slightly contact the frame as mentioned before which in hind sight would not have been a issue if I turned the caliper a little before welding on.the ends. In saying all that when I install I need a solid 2 days just for the what if. All my favorite shows and cruise ins are coming up and don't want to miss because I ran out of time and my work schedule is kind of hectic. Thanks for the compliments
Heck it's beyond sweet, too bad it's not a GM 12 bolt rear with Ford ends.... You know, then it would be perfect... I'll copy that rear bearing and brake set up soon though. I need to get new solid axles for my 12 bolt rear and strip it down and freshen it up for the LS7 & 6L80E swap.
Thanks for the compliments Ron! In all honesty I would have loved to keep it gm but with the inventory in my area and the budget I set for myself I couldn't find a way. I kept my eyes open for a while for a 8.5 10 bolt or a gm 12 bolt but never saw any around. On the 12 bolt I did find a few but not cheap. I like the bearing and brake setup myself.
My 12 bolt is a Moser G body nodular housing with large bearing ends that I got nearly new for 1800 as it didn't meet the requirements in a stock appearing GN class. I was beyond lucky when that deal fell into my lap because of a friend and location to the event.
Only a few individuals today would make the effort to take something made for another vehicle and piece together a very stout replacement. Most would "Bxxxx and complain" about the insane prices of a stout rear for a G -body rear supplier, then either pay the piper of just not do anything at all. I was one of the skeptics when you said you were doing a Vic rear into a G. Why? But you sold me. Due to your tenacity and multitude of skills you pulled it off and congrads!!!!! Looks all pretty, and i know every detail has been given due process, and I like stuff painted black. No one will ever look under the car at that rear, unless you invite them. But I know!!!!!
Thanks for the EFFORT, othes should, could, learn from your achievement. Bob
Only a few individuals today would make the effort to take something made for another vehicle and piece together a very stout replacement. Most would "Bxxxx and complain" about the insane prices of a stout rear for a G -body rear supplier, then either pay the piper of just not do anything at all. I was one of the skeptics when you said you were doing a Vic rear into a G. Why? But you sold me. Due to your tenacity and multitude of skills you pulled it off and congrads!!!!! Looks all pretty, and i know every detail has been given due process, and I like stuff painted black. No one will ever look under the car at that rear, unless you invite them. But I know!!!!!
Thanks for the EFFORT, othes should, could, learn from your achievement. Bob
Bob, thanks for the compliments and the help on your end. I'm pretty sure I remember on several occasions you had to listen to me b×××× and complain about the high prices of rearends. I started this by buying a cheap foxbody mustang 8.8 housing and I was skeptical about it and still am. After looking at the three housings together sitting in my garage floor side by side the mustang rear is a horrible idea imho.
If a person has the skills and tools I think the crown vic/grand marquis is a good option. Also the only other 2 crown vic rears that I know of are in g body's the owners sent the rears to Quick Performance and had the brackets welded on for a g body, so that's an option for others. I know it's not an s60, 9", or a 12 bolt but it's not far off either and with the above and me doing the work it's about 1/2 the price so I'll take it.
As with the serpentine and a few other projects I take pride in taking the rearend and ls1 brakes from a junk yard where they were destined to be melted and letting them live another day.
I am in the "don't worry about changing the proportioning valve" club. I've been running the stock master, booster and prop valve on my car for a long time with several different sets of front and rear brakes on my car and it has never been an issue.
I did eventually plumb an adjustable prop valve in the line going to the rear brakes just to let me dial the bias in just right but I ran for a long time without that.
All I'm saying is maybe try it without first and see if you agree?
I am in the "don't worry about changing the proportioning valve" club. I've been running the stock master, booster and prop valve on my car for a long time with several different sets of front and rear brakes on my car and it has never been an issue.
I did eventually plumb an adjustable prop valve in the line going to the rear brakes just to let me dial the bias in just right but I ran for a long time without that.
All I'm saying is maybe try it without first and see if you agree?
When I originally talked with Tobin he said for c5,c6, or ls1 fronts and ls1 rears to stay with my stock master and booster, said they were sized right for those combinations. We didn't speak on the p.v. but I found a thread on gbodyforum.com a while back and quite a few people just left the stock valve and were happy with it. After that thread and your endorsement I'll give it a try.
After looking at the calender and my work schedule I'm thinking October 1st is looking like a good day to start the install. I should have a couple of post between now and then on how I'm going to do the e brake setup and my plans for the rear suspension which will change a little. I thought about trying to squeeze it in the next 3 days because I'm off but have other things to tend to.
What's everyone's opinions on brake pads for just a street driven car that might get a little spirited on twisting roads from time to time?
I plan to use the Monte carlo ss e brake cables but will have to make a few modifications along the way. To convert to the lever style on the ls1 e brake I'll be using the lokar EC-81FC clevis kit.
This is not my picture but here they are being used on what I think is a 3rd gen camaro using ls1 brakes. I think they should work well.
Liking the way this is going. Making a rear 12" rotor with a drum e-brake setup using the original cables was a major requirement for me if I was to do the disc swap on the rear. The Locar questions, Are they made of gold? Second question, they only have a 1/8" hole for the cable? How does the Monte cable at that end get attached to the Lokar? https://lokar.com/assets/instructions/INS0011-Ford-Explorer-Wilwood-Internal-EbrakeCables.pdf
That guy that sold the cable mount brackets sure makes a lot of other brake swap parts. I was looking at his Ebay and made me curious about what his C5-C6 12" four piston rear swap would take to get installed on a 10 bolt. The E-brake backing plates are the problem, a 3 bolts hub /bearing complicates that swap. Just like the idea of having a four small pistons and long pads.
Got a shock length at ride height measurement? Bob
Bob, with the price you would think they are made of gold. Wilwood has the same thing for their brakes but it's about the same price. Not 100% sure on making the cable work but I have 3 different ideas, did I mention the milling machine was delivered and setup last week.
New rearend is still sitting under the steps in the garage so not been able to get it in and figure out the shock height.
So my plan was to throw this rearend in around October 1st, My thoughts were I would hopefully be able to get a driveshaft in 5-10 days. I called Denny's today and he is 6 weeks out on driveshafts, I'll check my local place this week and see what their thoughts are. I'm thinking that the driveshaft length might be the same so in that case I would put a 1330 to 1350 u joint in my modified stock shaft just to keep me on the road until I could get a new one delivered, if not the rearend won't be put in til November.
From dennys the nitrous ready steel 3.5" with 31 spline slip yoke and 1350 joints for my car with shipping is $800, the aluminum from dennys is $780.
When I talked to Denny at Denny's he favored the the nitrous ready steel shaft and claimed it was his buy once cry once drive shaft and would be perfect for my car. The local place, Knoxville Driveline claimed their buy once cry once for my car was their Aluminum driveshaft which was within $10 of Denny's. The main thing with the local shop was the turn is 5-7 days where dennys is 6 weeks.
I bought my Denny's 3 1/2" Alum with 1350s, think it was 2002, and it was 500 delivered 20 years ago. Denny told me the same thing, if you want to drag race a heavy car a million times at the drag get a nitrous type shaft, the alum is fine for everything else.
The lighter the shaft the better, the better the balance make everyone happier. the bigger the joints the less you should worry. Driveshafts are another one of those things, measure five times, cut once, you only want to have one high quality made once.
My front yoke is a Dana, nothing special, about 17 years into it's life it decided to weep trans fluid, Mobil 1 ATF, around the steel plug the seals the splined bore of the yoke. Why, don't know, I blamed it on Mobil 1. Pulled the shaft and took it to a friend to TIG the plate to the yoke, that fixed the problem.
Ask Denny what his policy is on shortening an alum driveshaft he built. Bob
it's been awhile since I got my shaft, 20 years, but think the "we won't shorten an alum shaft " was in regard to cutting a 1/2" off cause you mis-measured. My thought back then was the alum tubing, 6061, used in the 3 1/2" shaft needs to be cut much shorter to get out of the "welded heat zone" at the end cut off.
When Denny got my order form for my shaft he called me right away and said, "You measured wrong, I have never made a G-body shaft that short.""nope, you have never made a driveshaft for my aftermarket T56 in a G body with an 8 1/2" to boot." i was perfect length when it arrived. And it has the manufactures decal still stuck on it. Ya know, if ya remove the decal it voids the warranty. Bob
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