MonteCarloSS.com
MonteCarloSS.com

CELEBRATING 20 YEARS!

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
I pulled a gm serpentine off of a 93 caprice right before covid and sandblasted it and the pulleys. When I pulled it I got all the bolts and wire connectors and labeled them. The caprice serpentine is the same as the f body and the same as the one chevrolet performance sells. I know this swap is well documented but some of the photos are missing, part numbers have changed or are no longer available, and I couldn't find where anyone was using a sanden compressor on the swap on this forum. Over on third gen forum its been done quite a bit on the camaros.

The brackets, braces, connectors and bolts were $58 from pull a part. I sandblasted everything myself so just time and a little wear on the blasting media. Here is what it all looked like after blasting and what I have to start with. The next picture is the some pieces sprayed with semi gloss black. The gm kit only has 2 braces but the caprice had 3.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 02/25/22 05:24 PM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
The new parts I've used so far for the swap, as usual on my "build" threads I'll do a complete cost for the project when done.

Ac delco tensioner 38118 $45
Smog pump delete pulley and bracket 10129569 $55
Ac delco waterpump 88926233 $36
Alternator 140 amp iceberg cs130 $150
Power steering pump 207926 $75
Sanden 4864 FLX7 $231
https://truckerac.com/03-3708.html

Dirty dingo r4 to sanden compressor bracket $49
https://www.dirtydingo.com/shop/mobile_product_info.php?products_id=1622
Brackets, braces, and pulleys from caprice $58

This project started as wanting to go to parallel flow condensor for better r134 cooling. I wanted to do the serpentine so I would need the f -body condensor, my r4 compressor would not fit the brackets so I needed a new compressor so I decided on the sanden. The below picture was just for fit up, I plan to paint water pump and do some other things before final mounting and it's also the old tensioner.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 02/25/22 07:14 PM.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
What condenser did you use?

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,754
Likes: 4
M
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,754
Likes: 4
Ya know I always wonder why all the hype on the serpentine belt setup. Yes, one belt to deal with, yes the A/C compressor gets moved to the pass side the result is shorter line set and the condenser in/out moved to pass side, yes self adjusting tensioner, yes one belt. But I never viewed any of them as much of an advantage for spending the time of money to do it. The Sanden compressor may be an advantage.

My 95 Astro is a 4.3 with serpentine, and as we know the 4.3 is just a 350 with 2 cylinders removed, and everything that bolts to the front of a Vortec head 4.3 will bolt to a later head V8. My 4.3 has a Sanden comp located on the drivers side. The alt is located on the pass side. The P/S pump is located under the A/C comp and has a remote reservoir located 16" above the pump.

I always felt that 4.3 serp setup was a much simpler to swap into a Monte. The thing people didn't like was it didn't clean up the line set coming from the compressor. Alt and P/S pump are simple.

Ok, saw my first serp setup when my brother bought his brand new 87 F body, just a 305 LG4 with 700R, so 35 years ago. He learned a lesson when be had to put a water pump on that car and they gave him the wrong rotation. 87 was a serp transition year, some had it some didn't.

My Astro serp, idlers replaced numerous times along with a couple belts, a couple Sanden comp done and the one in the van now is junk, alt twice, two water pumps and smells like another on it's way. Cyl heads off three times on this engine in the near 17 years I've owned it. So the Serp setup has been unbolted each side and just pulled forward to get the heads off. Can say once you do that the second time you realize it may be easier than dealing with separate alt and compressor on a non serp engine.

Still not sold on the serp setup even though it was the latest stock accessory setup for the front of a SBC but don't think they did that for us, they did that because it was easier and cheaper for them, them meaning GM.

My wife's 3.8 Monte has a serp, belts and idlers, pump, and alt done a couple times.
Daughter's supercharged 3.8 is serp and has two belts and three idlers (two being tensioners), all being replaced twice.

After all that still think i will stay with V-belts on the 86.
Bob

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by Tunedss86
What condenser did you use?


I ordered the f body condenser and liquid line from original air. Says they both shipped today , we will see. Once I get it I'll take detailed pictures of the condenser and install pictures.
Condenser $322
https://www.originalair.com/11-215p
Liquid line $84
https://www.originalair.com/13-281

Plan to go with 55451 four seasons hoses $81 off the f body and a monte carlo accumulator $19. Below is a picture of the setup on a 3rd gen.
[Linked Image]

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,754
Likes: 4
M
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,754
Likes: 4
Ouch, that condenser got pricey. I kinda remember the Grand Prix G body for less than 100 bucks. But i know availability from Spectra, being Canada, of late was non-existent
https://ecat.spectrapremium.com/products/7-4013

Is it possible to have two high pressure ports in the system, one for a high pressure gauge when needed for setup and one for a high pressure switch for the electric fan controller?
Bob

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Bob, the gm serpentine is like a lot of things it's not for everyone. The best looking gm engine in my eyes is the tpi with the serpentine, so I've always liked the look and function of it. I really like the setup with the sanden.

Was not happy about laying the coin down for the original air condenser but to make myself feel better it's american made and true parallel flow. I also wanted the camaro condenser because of the lower lines coming out of it and with my research it looks like the factory f body lines will line up perfect coming out of the sanden on the g body. The liquid line from original air has 2 ports in it.

I was wanting the spectra 7-3231, as you said they filed bankruptcy so at the time no new product in the USA only Canada. I called their office and they said the only condensers that would be available is if it was already manufactured. I searched high and low and probably made 50 calls looking for one, no luck. 3rd gen.org guys have been looking everywhere for one. There is another brand on rock auto but when researching its said to be very poor quality. Only other option was buying a universal and making it fit and that's not what I was wanting to do so I dug deep and pulled a little more out of the wallet than I wanted to.

One thing to note is that you could do this swap with a combination of the Monte hoses. I ran across this as I was searching, might be a members car.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Last edited by 88ssBrent; 02/26/22 02:05 PM.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
I had always heard the go-to one was from an Olds Cutlass as it is the same size, but ports are on the passenger side.



Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Ya know I always wonder why all the hype on the serpentine belt setup. Yes, one belt to deal with, yes the A/C compressor gets moved to the pass side the result is shorter line set and the condenser in/out moved to pass side, yes self adjusting tensioner, yes one belt. But I never viewed any of them as much of an advantage for spending the time of money to do it. The Sanden compressor may be an advantage.

My 95 Astro is a 4.3 with serpentine, and as we know the 4.3 is just a 350 with 2 cylinders removed, and everything that bolts to the front of a Vortec head 4.3 will bolt to a later head V8. My 4.3 has a Sanden comp located on the drivers side. The alt is located on the pass side. The P/S pump is located under the A/C comp and has a remote reservoir located 16" above the pump.

I always felt that 4.3 serp setup was a much simpler to swap into a Monte. The thing people didn't like was it didn't clean up the line set coming from the compressor. Alt and P/S pump are simple.

Ok, saw my first serp setup when my brother bought his brand new 87 F body, just a 305 LG4 with 700R, so 35 years ago. He learned a lesson when be had to put a water pump on that car and they gave him the wrong rotation. 87 was a serp transition year, some had it some didn't.

My Astro serp, idlers replaced numerous times along with a couple belts, a couple Sanden comp done and the one in the van now is junk, alt twice, two water pumps and smells like another on it's way. Cyl heads off three times on this engine in the near 17 years I've owned it. So the Serp setup has been unbolted each side and just pulled forward to get the heads off. Can say once you do that the second time you realize it may be easier than dealing with separate alt and compressor on a non serp engine.

Still not sold on the serp setup even though it was the latest stock accessory setup for the front of a SBC but don't think they did that for us, they did that because it was easier and cheaper for them, them meaning GM.

My wife's 3.8 Monte has a serp, belts and idlers, pump, and alt done a couple times.
Daughter's supercharged 3.8 is serp and has two belts and three idlers (two being tensioners), all being replaced twice.

After all that still think i will stay with V-belts on the 86.
Bob


Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,143
Likes: 1
15+ Year
Member
Offline
15+ Year
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,143
Likes: 1
Serpentine belt setups have a couple of disadvantages. Bing a single belt means if it snaps you lose everything. With the multi V belts if one snaps, you just lose one system. Other issue are idler pulleys are wesk links as they often fail before any of the belt driven accessories, this includes the tensor pulley. If the tensor pulley or idler pulleys develop any wobble they will quickly chew up the belt. I seen tensors and idler pulleys having much shorter lives than the belt. Finally the belt tensor is hazardous to work on as they can snap back with a lot of force, still have the scar on my finger to remind me of this.

One additional advantage with serpentine belts not mentioned is that the aluminum mounting brackets should reduce weight. The stock V belt setups use heaviver steel brackets. Everything has its pros and cons.

Last edited by Buick Runner; 02/26/22 04:04 PM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
Originally Posted by Buick Runner
Serpentine belt setups have a couple of disadvantages. Bing a single belt means if it snaps you lose everything. With the multi V belts if one snaps, you just lose one system. Other issue are idler pulleys are wesk links as they often fail before any of the belt driven accessories, this includes the tensor pulley. If the tensor pulley or idler pulleys develop any wobble they will quickly chew up the belt. I seen tensors and idler pulleys having much shorter lives than the belt. Finally the belt tensor is hazardous to work on as they can snap back with a lot of force, still have the scar on my finger to remind me of this.

One additional advantage with serpentine belts not mentioned is that the aluminum mounting brackets should reduce weight. The stock V belt setups use heavier steel brackets. Everything has its pros and cons.


I have a 2008 Suburban with 200k miles on it, I changed the belt 2 years ago because the Dealer said it needed it. I ordered the belt from Amazon before I got it back from warranty repair. Dealer said to change it only because the service manual says it needs changed at "xxx" miles, & because they wanted $75 for the belt & another $45 or so to change it. IT DIDN'T NEED REPLACED. I would have kept driving with it. I have been driving for 36 years & have NEVER had a serpentine belt break. Because of the greater surface area & multiple grooves, the serpentine belt doesn't need near the tension on it that the V belt does. Therefore less wear & longer life.

Last edited by Tunedss86; 02/26/22 09:56 PM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by Buick Runner
Serpentine belt setups have a couple of disadvantages. Bing a single belt means if it snaps you lose everything. With the multi V belts if one snaps, you just lose one system. Other issue are idler pulleys are wesk links as they often fail before any of the belt driven accessories, this includes the tensor pulley. If the tensor pulley or idler pulleys develop any wobble they will quickly chew up the belt. I seen tensors and idler pulleys having much shorter lives than the belt. Finally the belt tensor is hazardous to work on as they can snap back with a lot of force, still have the scar on my finger to remind me of this.

One additional advantage with serpentine belts not mentioned is that the aluminum mounting brackets should reduce weight. The stock V belt setups use heaviver steel brackets. Everything has its pros and cons.


Not sure what your issues were but I've had 2 trucks with the near same configuration of serpentine that I'm putting on and never had the first issue. Over 100,000 on one and over 150,000 on the other and never touched a thing except throw a new belt on the one at 100,000. A different serp on my wife's mazda has close to 190,000 and I've not touched it. Probably had 7 or 8 different vehicles with serpentine and never had 1 issue. On the same note I've never had issues with any v belts.

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 02/27/22 12:55 AM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Wasn't expecting this today but glad it's here. You can also see the 2 ports on the liquid line.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 02/27/22 04:54 PM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Well, the lines coming out of condenser are too low and hit the core support. I could bend the lines or trim the core support but not really wanting to do that. The condenser Bob mentioned above is on Amazon for $88, Looks like I'll try that one.

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,143
Likes: 1
15+ Year
Member
Offline
15+ Year
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,143
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Originally Posted by Buick Runner
Serpentine belt setups have a couple of disadvantages. Bing a single belt means if it snaps you lose everything. With the multi V belts if one snaps, you just lose one system. Other issue are idler pulleys are wesk links as they often fail before any of the belt driven accessories, this includes the tensor pulley. If the tensor pulley or idler pulleys develop any wobble they will quickly chew up the belt. I seen tensors and idler pulleys having much shorter lives than the belt. Finally the belt tensor is hazardous to work on as they can snap back with a lot of force, still have the scar on my finger to remind me of this.

One additional advantage with serpentine belts not mentioned is that the aluminum mounting brackets should reduce weight. The stock V belt setups use heaviver steel brackets. Everything has its pros and cons.


Not sure what your issues were but I've had 2 trucks with the near same configuration of serpentine that I'm putting on and never had the first issue. Over 100,000 on one and over 150,000 on the other and never touched a thing except throw a new belt on the one at 100,000. A different serp on my wife's mazda has close to 190,000 and I've not touched it. Probably had 7 or 8 different vehicles with serpentine and never had 1 issue. On the same note I've never had issues with any v belts.



My family had a 1994 Corsica back in ths 90's. It was a pretty good car except for the tensioner which kept wasting pulley bearings which in turn chewed up belts and even snapping a couple of times. We kept changing the complete tensioner every 6 months, tried all sorts of different brands including OEM GM, all kept failing. 15 years ago, the last time I changed the tensioner on that car it somehow slipped off the hold down tool and crushed my left index finger. Thankfully it didn't break any bones but my finger was swollen for a month, and couldn't bend it that whole time. Still have the scar on my finger from it. My post was meant to be a cautious tale about handling tensioners.

Idler pulleys use sealed, lifetime greased bearing cartridges that are similar to bicycle wheel bearings. Generally they have a life of 50 to 70k miles, depending on the quality. The grease in the sealed bearings can dry out and cause premature failure, especially in low grade bearings.

Last edited by Buick Runner; 02/28/22 03:12 AM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Well, the lines coming out of condenser are too low and hit the core support. I could bend the lines or trim the core support but not really wanting to do that. The condenser Bob mentioned above is on Amazon for $88, Looks like I'll try that one.



I was just looking at that one too. Nowhere does it say it is parallel flow. How can you tell?

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
It's a 6mm piccolo style condenser. Supposedly not as efficient as a true parallel flow style but still more efficient than the serpentine style that came in the car stock. If you search 6mm piccolo vs parallel flow there is articles about the difference.

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,754
Likes: 4
M
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
M
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,754
Likes: 4
I've read the piccolo are ok but prone to clogging and not usually easy to flush because of the small tubes. No experience with one, just what I've read and been told by the guy who i bought my A/C parts from.

When i shopped for the Spectre condenser i always saw it as not available. When I did my A/C R&R this past year I was told i could have a quality, American made condenser made but would have to wait a good while and it was going to be expensive also. As a result still using the original serp condenser. Would have like to do the parallel but time was not on my side.
Brent did you call the guy in AZ that I dealt with? He may have a lead on parts, he's in tune with the whole car A/C world.
https://www.ackits.com/
Bob

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Bob, I will call this morning just to check. Every where I called around 4 weeks ago pretty much told me 4-6 weeks if I was lucky. I like you am starting to run out of time as far as nice weather coming and wanting to get on the road. I've not even been able to find a trace of a grand prix/ regal parallel flow condenser. 6mm piccolo was/is used on millions of furds and for $100 I'll give it a try. Here a small bit on them from ackits.

https://www.ackits.com/parallel-flow-condensers/

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
The spectra one on Amazon you linked to above is a Piccolo style.

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Yes, they are 6mm picollo, It's more efficient than the serpentine but not as efficient as parallel flow. The issue is I can't find anyone that makes a g body parallel flow the tubing on the passenger side so it looks like I will be going 6mm picollo.

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Member
OP Online Content
Member
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 787
Likes: 2
Here is some that are universal parallel flow, I think Lance used a 16x28 universal parallel flow and had to do some trimming if I remember correctly.

https://nostalgicac.com/parallel-flow-condensers/painted-condenser.html

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 02/28/22 04:11 PM.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,487
I wonder if the tubes could be bent 180° so they exit on the passenger side.
https://www.originalair.com/1978-1984-chevrolet-el-camino-ac-condenser-parallel-flow

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 960
A
10+ Year
Member
Online Content
10+ Year
Member
A
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 960
Brent - I have the March Serp with passenger side A/C. Spent $60 to reverse direction of fittings (cut and reweld) when I flipped an aftermarket condenser. Then I read on this site (always after the fact) that other GM condensers had passenger side fittings and were used and recommended. No idea where this was of which versions but hopefully you can find one that would be a drop in (maybe tweak the mounting brackets?). Otherwise, consider a small cut and weld to the better location/height and direction?
Gordon


1987 Aerocoupe. Frame-off, notched/mini-tub, 383 with AFRs @ 535HP/487TQ, March Serpentine, 304 SS headers (Jet-Hot) & 304 3" dual exhaust w/ Borlas, Janis 200-4R, TrueTrac w/ girdle and Moser 28, Hydroboost, computer delete, lowered, every part replaced or messed with (several times).
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 2
20+ Year
Member
Offline
20+ Year
Member
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 2
Rockauto has one listed for a Grand Prix but it looks like the line output on the bottom is similar to the one you have now. It might turn up a little tighter but have no idea if it’ll clear.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration in progress. 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. 1.875" headers and dual 3.5" Borla exhaust. TH400, Ford 9", anti-roll bar, and notched frame. Dropped 2", 18" wheels, and F/R disk brakes. 10-point cage w/swing-out bars, custom gauges, and audiophile stereo system.
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Help MonteCarloSS.com


Recent Contributors
86BlackSuperSport
Authorized Vendors
Tell them you saw it
on MonteCarloSS.com!


Dixie Monte Carlo Depot
Mikes Montes
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5