MonteCarloSS.com
MonteCarloSS.com

CELEBRATING 20 YEARS!

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
#1072027 - 09/16/21 05:00 AM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,026
Buick Runner Online content
10+ Year
Buick Runner  Online Content
10+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,026
Dharma station 1 the Hydra
Actually it was meant to be a friendly jab at both you and Travis, didn't mean to get anyone upset. LS guys do tend to hijack SBC threads on car forums which is not always helpful which the linked meme refers to. The LS fan over enthusiasm can come across as annoying wither intentional or not. For a 350 I would rather have 350 heads too, I would just get a Vortec crate and be done.

Which 305 heads did you port out? There were several different 305 castings with some better than others. The swirl ports being the worst of the lot which thankfully MCSSs do not have. 305 heads should have larger valves installed for 350 use, did you install larger 1.94 valves? Stock 1.84 valves on 416 heads are sized for filling 305 cylinder volume, not 350 cylinder volume.

416 stock flow numbers https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech-general-engine/591429-stock-416-head-flow.html

L98 stock flow numbers https://www.corvetteforum.com/forum...um-head-flow-numbers.html#post1545504940

416 heads can be ported out to 240 / 190 which beats stock vortecs. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech-general-engine/308973-vortec-heads-vs-my.html#post2429844

Granted Vortec heads are a better starting point for porting.

Frankly if a person wants true modern performance, then buy a modern car and be happy. A 40 year old granny mobile is not the best basis for a modern hotrod, or even a retro tech hotrod. IMHO, modern tech is overrated and has its shares of drawbacks like aforementioned DBW controls, yuck.

Last edited by Buick Runner; 09/16/21 06:45 AM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1072028 - 09/16/21 05:33 AM Re: EFI Options [Re: stew'86MCSS396]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,026
Buick Runner Online content
10+ Year
Buick Runner  Online Content
10+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,026
Dharma station 1 the Hydra
Originally Posted by stew'86MCSS396
Originally Posted by Rick Hodgkins
The emissions decal does show it connected to a vacuum source but calling it a vacuum sensor.
I found the vac source missing when I got the car 2 years ago and put one on it.
It seems this as close as it gets to TBI short of pressurized fuel in my mind being it has a tps and ecu controlled metering rods.
I do speak the efi language but this mongrel is a bit outside of that in its own way I guess.
Thing is a weakling on top, but starts and accelerates pretty well short of a slight flat spot off idle.

I still don't get it, on my '87 LG4, there's the same fender mounted sensor and also another one near the dizzy/EGR valve. The fender mounted one does not have a vacuum hose connected the way GM intended. The one on the engine near the dizzy/EGR valve suppose to be connected to a vacuum source, again the way GM intended.
Not my pic but something I found here:
[Linked Image]
Red scribblings, is this where yours didn't have a vacuum hose connected and you added it? Or are you saying yours doesn't have a vacuum sensor in this location? If I look at your Facebook pictures, it does appear there's a sensor on the engine but the picture gets pixelated when you blow it up. think

Originally Posted by Buick Runner
The CCC layout changed over the years. Early years the MAP sensor was mounted on the passenger fender with a long vacuum line to the carb. Later years put the BARO sensor on the fender and moved the MAP sensor to the back of the intake manifold with a short vacuum line to the back of the carb.

Certainly not unheard of that a crossover year you could get either configuration but I think I've established in an earlier post that your emissions sticker would indicate whether it's early fender or late engine mounted.


Its possible for a car to have an incorrect emission label installed. Previous owners can do weird stuff to these cars or hire mechanics that do likewise.

Rick, the CCC is pretty simple to work on. With Qjets, the throttle blade position at idle can affect other areas. Too far closed causes an off idle bog, too far open and you get nozzle drip. Moreover, the idle mixture needles in the throttle body affect both idle and off idle mixtures while the idle air bleed valve in the airhorn affects just the base idle mixture. Set the idle mixture needles to 3 and 3/8 turns from lightly seated, then adjust the air bleed for correct dwell. Base ignition timing also affects idle quality.

As for top end power issues, check your fuel flow and secondary airvane tension adjustment. As I said before, Montes got restrictive single snorkel aircleaners to knock their power down by 10 HP so as not to upstage Camaros which got higher flowing twin snorkel aircleaners. My police packaged Crown Vic has 11 extra HP due to having a higher flowing aircleaner, air intake restrictions can really affect top end power.

Last edited by Buick Runner; 09/16/21 06:51 AM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1072035 - 09/17/21 04:10 AM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,314
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,314
Yuma, AZ
Hi Buick,

OK - the clarification helped. The LS plug was not to annoy but to suggest a better and probably cheaper path to EFI delivery with more power, better economy, and modern reliability.

The heads I ported were fresh Corvette 350 aluminum L98 heads ordered from GM around 1988 as I recall. 1.94"/1.50". Magnesium valve covers. I did the usual mods everyone does: enlarge/smooth the bowl, narrow/streamline the valveguide boss, widen the intake port at the pushrod pinch-point. Frankly, I was surprised the flow came up as much as it did for so little work; too bad the original numbers are long gone in some forgotten notebook somewhere. I also remember the exhaust side came up fractionally even more, but again, too much time has passed for a clear recollection.

About modern performance in an old car: I believe in having them both. If I could take an MCSS body and wrap it around a Tesla, I'd do it in a heartbeat. With the A/G body, GM basically did as little as they could as quickly and as cheaply as they could to recover from the Middle East oil crisis. The goal at the time was an engine that would last only 75,000 miles, and performance was barely an afterthought. So no, I have no qualms whatsoever about trashing the dull engineering in that car and bringing it into the 2020s. And sorry, Buick, but I couldn't possibly disagree with you more about modern tech being overrated. In fact, what I see here is more the opposite: it's the old tech that's overrated.

But at the same time, I can see and respect Rick's desire to stay with more period-correct technology.

Last edited by MAP; 09/17/21 04:14 AM.
#1072037 - 09/17/21 06:10 AM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,026
Buick Runner Online content
10+ Year
Buick Runner  Online Content
10+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,026
Dharma station 1 the Hydra
I also could not disagree more with you that older tech is as bad as you claim. My 305 has 100k on the clock and still has excellent compression readings with little deviation between the readings. Before I swapped it into the Regal I had to pull a head to get a broken exhaust manifold bolt off and the cylinders on that bank still had hone marks and no ridge. Its not uncommon for 305s to last 300k. I also have a 70 year old tractor with original engine internals that runs like it was new.

One advantage I will give to modern tech is that it is often more forgiving of neglect than older tech. Then again new tech tuning is locked behind hefty software paywalls, requires a degree in electronics, as well as various obnoxious nanny and eco tech like DBW throttle to contend with. Overall, modern tech is far less servicable for hobbyists on purpose and it gets worse the newer and more modern it is. Most LS guys farm out most of the work rather than perform it themselves such as wiring and tuning but some car owners see that as a good thing.

But this is hijacking the OP's thread, we will just have to agree to disagree.

Last edited by Buick Runner; 09/17/21 07:36 AM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1072043 - 09/17/21 02:24 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Rick Hodgkins Offline
Junior Member
Rick Hodgkins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Freetown, MA
Not a hijack, great discussion.
Seen some LS jobs that really shined, some pretty sloppy.
IMHO a car is only a virgin once, after that its never the same as it rolled off the line.
Sure it matters to me and not to others, I get it.
Some gotta go 150 mph some are happy at half that.
The long term problem is hop ups are unless you upgrade the whole drive train and front end, its gonna let you down as things break that weren't designed for it.
When I pop the hood on a 40-50 year old car and see either a untouched original or meticulously restored engine its a turn on tbh.
We're not even touching on keeping the numbers correct, and that alone down the road WILL matter to purists.
I have 3 cars that are all original and near complete with this 69 442.
Is that a car that would have more or less value with an LS?
What would a buyer want more?
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10221915165362295&set=a.10220823234824714

#1072044 - 09/17/21 02:31 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Rick Hodgkins Offline
Junior Member
Rick Hodgkins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Freetown, MA
This 1971 MC was a complete frame off.
The engine bay was absolutely perfect in every detail, no runs, no drips no errors or grease.
What would you want more, that or one that had an LS slammed in there?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...t=pb.1053952666.-2207520000..&type=3

#1072046 - 09/17/21 03:58 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 79
zelm86ss Offline
Member
zelm86ss  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 79
Bremen,In
I'd take the 71 MC as it is!

#1072047 - 09/17/21 09:54 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,314
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,314
Yuma, AZ
Hi Rick - That 1971 is a beauty for sure! Glad you took the LS subtopic in the light it was intended. Buick - well, nah - forget it. You didn't take the LS subtopic in the light it was intended. We've been around this block at least a hundred times in different threads. Enjoy your world. Peace.

Last edited by MAP; 09/17/21 10:14 PM.
#1072050 - 09/18/21 02:06 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Rick Hodgkins Offline
Junior Member
Rick Hodgkins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Freetown, MA
I do understand the reasons.
The LS is a strong engine costing far less than building a stroker or charging which will shorten the engines life.
If the original engine was puked that might be my direction also.

#1072091 - 09/23/21 11:27 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Rick Hodgkins Offline
Junior Member
Rick Hodgkins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Freetown, MA
So interestingly enough with the scan tool hooked up I am getting 3 codes.
A 24, 36 and 42.
Also found the data stream pretty complete but found the engine temp sensor low, like 85-95 when the analog is reading 200.
I am getting map voltage reading changes, so its functioning it appears.
In kinda deep on another car atm, but feeling pretty good about the ccc system now, thanks for leading me on here guys.
Baby steps, but its all making a little more sense to me now vs before.

#1072092 - 09/23/21 11:58 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 900
AkronAero Offline
10+ Year
AkronAero  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 900
Akron OH
Rick - any chance the scanner is reading temp in centigrade? 200F is 93C?

#1072093 - 09/24/21 12:03 AM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Rick Hodgkins Offline
Junior Member
Rick Hodgkins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Freetown, MA
Have to look again I guess, its a possibility.
The scanner is totally new to me at this point.
tx

#1072158 - 10/04/21 06:52 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Rick Hodgkins Offline
Junior Member
Rick Hodgkins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Freetown, MA
Temp is in C yes, hard to read while driving lol.
Anyway Code 42 pointing at a bad distributor module, need to have it tested I guess.
It does go into closed loop, so the ECU is in control.

Internet saying code 36 is a mass air flow sensor problem, but thought that started with TPI and I don't see one on this engine unless its hidden.
Pretty straight forward induction through a normal air cleaner, no extra plumbing or wiring.
Another 36 is a crank position sensor which this doesn't have in the traditional SBC location behind balancer.
The other one was a 4T60E shifting error and it has a 200R trans.
Anybody followed this string before?

#1072159 - 10/04/21 07:57 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 532
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 532
Friendsville
This is from my 88 manual so might not be the same for code 42 troubleshooting. Also there is no code 36 on a 88 monte so I wouldn't think it would be on any others. The manuals really help and any one that owns a monte should have one, they are invaulable.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

#1072161 - 10/04/21 08:57 PM Re: EFI Options [Re: Rick Hodgkins]  
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Rick Hodgkins Offline
Junior Member
Rick Hodgkins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 30
Freetown, MA
Thanks Brent, I did get the manuals but car is at work manuals were at home.
There is definitely some control switching going on with the ecu.
Sometimes on cold start I get a service light and different idle speed.
Key off and on and lights out and the engine is running smoothly again.
I have not seen it go open loop where the controls are fixed once at temp.
I will follow this flow chart to the letter to figure this out and report.
Thanks for the assist
r

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Random Images
500/thumbs/sp51.jpg
by RocknSS
500/thumbs/brokentranny2.jpg
by johnz138
500/thumbs/IMG_5708.jpg
by T-TopGene
989/thumbs/my_monte_21.jpg
by 85montanezcarloss
506/thumbs/100_0805.JPG
by 85_SS
Help MonteCarloSS.com


Recent Contributors
86BlackSuperSport
dns87ss
Authorized Vendors
Tell them you saw it
on MonteCarloSS.com!


CustomMonteSSParts.com
Dixie Monte Carlo Depot
GSI Interiors
HRpartsNstuff
Mikes Montes
Savitske Classic & Custom
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0