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#1070149 - 03/31/21 12:21 PM Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender  
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T5montecarlo Offline
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Lederach, PA
I have a small leak in the area where the firewall meets the side of the car. A small trickle of water comes from high up behind the dash. The leak occurs on both sides of the car.

Posts have stated there are seams that need to be resealed that are easiest to manage with the front fender removed, but no pictures could be referenced for guidance.

I removed the left front fender to take on that side, first (I suspended the hood with straps from the garage rafters). I removed all the hard, cracked sealer from behind the fender and along the top of the cowl. Then I rubbed with Scotch Brite, applied Rustoleum Rust Reformer, and then applied new SEM 29372 sealer, spreading it with an acid brush.

As some have said, there is a hole that is not well sealed, but is plugged with a hard foam material. It was a bit tricky plugging this hole, building up the edges and working my way to the center of the hole. I believe this hole was originally protected by the small black plastic sheet that disintegrates over time.

I can't open the doors all the way, when in the garage, so I will take care of the areas on the other side of the hinges, later.

I am including pictures for future reference. Please let me know if I have missed anything.

Marc

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Last edited by T5montecarlo; 03/31/21 12:30 PM.
#1070151 - 03/31/21 02:47 PM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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Marc, this is very helpful!! Thank you for taking the time to share the pictures.


~ Matt H.

1988 Monte Carlo SS w/ T-tops, White with gray int, 350, Summit cam, World Torquer S/R heads, Holley St. Dominator intake, Edelbrock 600cfm carb, Champion 3-row alum radiator, ramchargers, 200-r4 with CK Shift Kit, billet servo, 2200 stall, Afterburner headers, Pypes 2.5" with x-pipe, Violator mufflers (stock exit), S10 front brake swap.
#1070162 - 04/01/21 12:38 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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T5montecarlo Offline
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You are very welcome, Matt.

I should add that I did not forget to seal the seam around the hole for the fender mounting bolt, that is above the upper hinge. That seam did not have seam sealer, instead, it was sealed with butyl ribbon caulk. You can see the remnants of the caulk in the 3rd picture.

Marc

#1070166 - 04/01/21 01:45 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Good job Marc.

Seam sealer on all four sides of the top and bottom hinge are important. Above the top hinge where the top section of the A pillar is lapped over the lower section of the A i had a problem there with lap rust. Spent a lot of time prepping, sealing and painting that area. Also under the end of the door's roof seal is another problem area.

That black plastic sheeting under the ends of the cowl trim is very important. It helps prevent wash down onto those seams on those sides of the cowl. My originals had cracks and were not very effective. Was lucky to find a very similar material, color, gauge, used as splash shields on old washing machines to protect the motor. Used the old ones as templates. If I remember they are now RTVed to the lower edge of the windshield and that is hidden by the cowl trim.
In a pinch you could use a very think black trash bag for material.

The cowl trim is what hides all that nasty stuff that happens under it. Years ago the original trim was showing wiper marks where it would rub when parking, very noticeable and discolored. The rest of the trim looked pretty nice. At the U-pull removed a cowl trim from a Monte to swap in temporarily until the black SS trim got refinished. That trim was silver, not a black SS one. Thinking nothing of it I painted it SEM trim black and when installing realized the SS trim was steel, not alum like all the silver (polished alum). Hmmmm. Well that painted black alum trim was on the car for a decade.

Finally decided it was time to strip the steel trim and get it done.That was tireless process, GM used two special coatings that refused to come off . Numerous applications of stripper, wet sanding to bare metal and off to the powdercoater. He media blasted it to give it a little tooth and applied a satin black to it. He told me never to wax it, just wash it. Almost 8 years now and is still the highlight of the lower windshield.

The sides of the A/C suitcase need to be addressed also. Even though there is a suitcase to firewall rubber seal those intersections need attention..
Bob

#1070169 - 04/01/21 05:34 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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Fred SS Offline
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Marc, Thank you for posting the pictures. Very helpful. I need to replace my door hinges, and seems like the best way is too pull the fender and replace them one at a time with the door closed. I'll make sure to pick up some of that seam sealer and use it while the fender is off.

Last edited by Fred SS; 04/01/21 05:36 AM.

87 SS, Harwood cowl induction hood, UMI trailing arms. Hooker 2050 TES Headers (Jet Hot Coated). Goodwrench 350, Ported TPI, Trick Flow 56cc alum heads, SLP runners, Comp Cams 260AH-12 cam, Trick Flow 1.5 roller rockers, Bilsteins, TCI 2400 stall converter, Ramcharger fans, Denny's 3.5" Driveshaft, GBodyParts GNX Wheels 18x8 & 18x9.
#1070171 - 04/01/21 07:01 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Some of the body seam sealers come in various colors, white, black, tan. Best to wait several days to skin, cure, before painting.

When the door R&R was done a frame of 2x3s was made to allow the pins to be pulled, actually cut off, and the doors slid away from the car at a 90 degree maintaining proper height and reinstall angles, this without disconnecting wire harness or remote mirror. The A pillar, hinges, all the old seam sealer could be accessed. and repainted, the A pillar, the hinge 1/2 on the A pillar, door hinges area and hinge 1/2's on the door. The biggest problem you have is it's very difficult to drive the new pins in to seat the knurl on the pin. I drove them in deep enough to about 50% depth and decided damage to hinge was possible if you beat on them more, and the swing area of the BFH is limited, and it's a two person jog driving the pins. Got the MIG out and put a substantial tack weld of the pin to the top of the hinge. Factory puts a crimp at the top, the weld is as good or better, a little paint and know one will ever know.

Bob

#1070172 - 04/01/21 12:15 PM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: mmc427ss]  
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T5montecarlo Offline
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Lederach, PA
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
The biggest problem you have is it's very difficult to drive the new pins in to seat the knurl on the pin. I drove them in deep enough to about 50% depth and decided damage to hinge was possible if you beat on them more, and the swing area of the BFH is limited, and it's a two person jog driving the pins.
Bob, did you leave the door-half of the hinge on the door when you rebuilt the hinge? If not, I would expect a press would be the best means to insert the pin away from the car.

I wonder if a pitman arm puller could be adapted to press in the pin if rebuilding the hinge while on the door.

Last edited by T5montecarlo; 04/01/21 12:19 PM.
#1070173 - 04/01/21 12:44 PM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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T5montecarlo Offline
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Lederach, PA
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Good job Marc.
Thanks Bob

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Some of the body seam sealers come in various colors, white, black, tan. Best to wait several days to skin, cure, before painting.
The seam sealer that I bought claims it can be painted immediately. I bought the grey color.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Seam sealer on all four sides of the top and bottom hinge are important.
Why? The factory did not seal the bottom edge of the hinge. I can do the bottom now that it is exposed.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Above the top hinge where the top section of the A pillar is lapped over the lower section of the A i had a problem there with lap rust.
Is this an area that I missed? If so, please post an edited picture circling the area that I missed. I haven't done the rear side of the hinge or anything in that vicinity because I can't open the door far enough while in the garage. I plan to take care of the bits that can be done with the door open after I can push the car back outside on a clear day and do those areas.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Also under the end of the door's roof seal is another problem area.
Is that an area that I missed? If so, please post an edited picture circling the area that I missed.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
That black plastic sheeting under the ends of the cowl trim is very important. It helps prevent wash down onto those seams on those sides of the cowl. My originals had cracks and were not very effective. Was lucky to find a very similar material, color, gauge, used as splash shields on old washing machines to protect the motor. Used the old ones as templates. If I remember they are now RTVed to the lower edge of the windshield and that is hidden by the cowl trim.
In a pinch you could use a very think black trash bag for material.
As my car sits outside, that shield deteriorated quickly. As soon it started breaking apart, I started seeing moisture inside the car. I wonder if that shield was used because the foam seal was inadequate. If properly sealed, why would the plastic sheeting be needed?

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
The cowl trim is what hides all that nasty stuff that happens under it. Years ago the original trim was showing wiper marks where it would rub when parking, very noticeable and discolored. The rest of the trim looked pretty nice. At the U-pull removed a cowl trim from a Monte to swap in temporarily until the black SS trim got refinished. That trim was silver, not a black SS one. Thinking nothing of it I painted it SEM trim black and when installing realized the SS trim was steel, not alum like all the silver (polished alum). Hmmmm. Well that painted black alum trim was on the car for a decade.
I always thought the bright cowl trim was stainless. Agreed the SS version is steel and rusts after the 2 layers of original coating peeled. I sanded and painted my steel one with Rustoleum Rust Reformer spray; it will be interesting to see how it holds up.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Finally decided it was time to strip the steel trim and get it done.That was tireless process, GM used two special coatings that refused to come off . Numerous applications of stripper, wet sanding to bare metal and off to the powdercoater. He media blasted it to give it a little tooth and applied a satin black to it. He told me never to wax it, just wash it. Almost 8 years now and is still the highlight of the lower windshield.
I had wondered if the original coatings were a powder coat rather than a paint. It is quite hard and peels in large sheets.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
The sides of the A/C suitcase need to be addressed also. Even though there is a suitcase to firewall rubber seal those intersections need attention.
I already took care of the suitcase with butyl ribbon caulk. I did the top and as much of the right side as I could reach. On the left (near the center of the car), I applied the caulk as far down until the original hard sealer was not broken. The seal to the firewall is a foam product and was still in good shape when I had to remove the top of the case to replace the heater core. Removing the original hard sealer was brutal. Someone had been in there before and had broken the top due to not removing enough of the hard-to-see screws and because it was still attached to the hard sealer in the top right corner.

Marc

#1070183 - 04/02/21 05:08 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Marc I'll email you a couple pics.

At the end of the roof seal at the A pillar is a plastic pin that holds in in place. As part of the door R&R all the seals were replaced. That's when I found a little rust around the hole in the body for the pin. If you are not doing seals at this time I wouldn't open that can of worms.

The car is not close by right now to verify sealer across the top of the lower hinge. But think just like the upper hinge water runs down to the lower hinge and can get between the hinge and body. Doesn't hurt to run a small bead to close off the top of the lower.

I'll have to pull that silver cowl trim out and look at it again. Maybe it is stainless but it's very light and may have had some coating sprayed on it. Will check that out.

I thought the plastic sheeting at the cowl ends is to help prevent puddling on the top of the cowl by directing water over the cowl. When the wipers are on they push the water to the outside of the windshield so there is more water collected in those areas.

GM used a lot of unique coating on some parts. When i stripped the cowl trim there was two different coating, the semi gloss on top and a flat base coat on the bottom. Both were tough as nails to get off. Powder coating i would think would be only one coating, no primer.

Lets see if I can remember the details on door hinges. The pin on the lower hinge is driven up to remove. you need grind off the crushed end of the pin if you want to remove it. Instead I cut the pin between the top and bottom close to the bottom, Was easily able to remove the top section of the pin, the lower section could then be tapped out. Somehow I remember either the pin of the bottom hinge can't be removed as a whole because the head of the pin would hit the body when drive down, That's why i cut them short and only had to remove an inch instead of the full length. Also the short length of pin had the head of the pin
still on it. I dressed the pins and made a set of install pins out of then. When reinstalling the door two pins in each hinge were dropped to hold the door where it need to be, then one at a time i could pull a stub pin and slide the long one until it pushed the other stub pin out of the bushing. Made door install much easier. Stub pins in all four bushings. Also on the bottom hinge change the direction of the pin, installed in going down instead of up.
The drivers door hinge is the one that takes a beating from use. I bought a new top hinge from Mike, the other three hinges got bushings and pins. When doing new hinges they need to adjusted to fit the door correctly in the opening. Once adjusted then seam sealer can be applied. But would require painting the sealer in a confined jamb, hard to get paint in there with no way to angle a spray but straight in. Hard to get paint on all the sealer on the back side of the hinge By pulling the pins to remove the door's the hinge 1/2s stay put and you have all the open space to seal and touch up the fixes.

Driving the pins all the way home to seat the knurl was hampered by the flex of the hinge and the inability to get a punch in there. I also ground off about half the knurl to get closer to bottoming out the knurl. This done because at that point i knew the pin would get glued to the hinge at the other end with the welder. Those pins are secure, ain't going anywhere.

I did the pass door first because I knew the hinges there where in great shape, even reluctantly did bushing and pins they were that good. It was the learning curve for the technique needed to fix the hinge and jamb on the drivers door. The cutting pins to remove them, using cut pins to rehang the door, the support rack made of 2x3 to get the door out of the way. The pass door took much longer to R&R learning and doing the setup. Did one door at a time. Everything was moved to the drivers door when the pass done hanging. Driver's side went much faster.

There a lot more detail on the door R&R in this post.
http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1061762&page=4

Besides hinges and sealers there is, new motors, added better door grounds, interior door seams PORed, crashguard rattles, window tracks, locks, power locks, all internal surface rust painted, the door's jamb areas from one end to the other were repaired and refinished, and last all new window and door seals. There is a lot to learn about those seals in that post. I bought 13 seals to get 4 good seals installed.

Bedtime
Bob

Last edited by mmc427ss; 04/02/21 05:25 AM.
#1070185 - 04/02/21 12:26 PM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: mmc427ss]  
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T5montecarlo Offline
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Lederach, PA
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Marc I'll email you a couple pics.
Yes, please! I don't want to put the fender on if there is more to do. The areas on the other side of the hinge will get done after I can open the door.

Marc

#1070212 - 04/03/21 11:58 PM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Looked at the lower door hinge today, seam sealer across the top from the factory.

I'll send pic later tonight.

And i still have a cherry rearview mirror sitting for you,
Bob

#1070214 - 04/04/21 12:44 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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Yes, both hinges are sealed top, front, and back. The bottom is open. The FSM states to coat the hinge and body with sealer if the hinge is removed, which hints that the bottom should be sealed. (to prevent capillary action from wicking water upwards and behind the hinge?)

Did you also seal the large hole that is open to the area that is behind the wiper motor? That area on mine just has a broken piece of foam, but since it is the hole is not open to the cabin, I left it open. That hole was probably covered by the plastic sheet.

My 1983 wagon and 1979 wagon did not have that plastic sheet, just my Monte Carlos had the sheet.

I haven't forgotten about the mirror (thank you, again). The pandemic is keeping me away for the moment. Perhaps after I have been vaccinated, which will be God-knows-when since I am in the last phase and Montgomery County seems to have been short changed their doses as compared to other counties.

Marc

#1070217 - 04/04/21 02:41 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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That hole, about 1/2" was not covered by anything on my car. I believe it is the drain hole for the water direct down toward it at the end of the windshield.

The mirror can wait. Was hoping you would stop by the shop and see if there is anything else laying around you could use. It time to thin out the parts shelves.

Yep, Montgomery County along with a few of these Eastern Pa counties is on the short list, gotta keep the numbers up.

Bob

#1070247 - 04/06/21 10:53 PM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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I removed the wiper linkage and found another seam that needed replacing. The seam is under the cowl, just below where it meets the left side of the car. I have included a picture of the cracked factory seam and after removing the factory seam. I haven't resealed it yet.

As a reference, the large round threaded bung at the top left in pictures is for the vertical fender bolt that prevents the hood from being pushed into the windshield in a front-end collision.

Marc

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#1070254 - 04/07/21 04:57 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Ya know Marc you can chase body seams for days, weeks on these cars. Aside from the parts bolted to the inner front plastic wheel housing it's not that hard to pull them off the car. When I fixed the right #2 body mount's frame hole that housing was removed. The firewall to A pillar seem on that side runs all the way down to the hole in the firewall where the ECM harness passes through the firewall, then back the floor foot wells. On both sides of the firewall the sealer would be cracked, fallen off, poor application from new,

Once you are done chasing the leaks up front another critical area is the rear tire tubs. Where it meets the 1/4 panel all the way around. At the front where the rocker panels meet you will be surprised what you find there. Once you dig out the stuffed dumped their in the past 35 years that the car wash didn't get you'll find the stuff GM applied, wrong word, dumped, there. I dug all that out and resealed those corners. And cleaned and resealed all around the 1/4 to wheel housing. Yep dug out the back corners as well.
Also the bond between the wheel housing and what every GM sprayed on it was given up. Over the 30 years owning this car have laid a touch up coat of satin or flat spray to keep the wells nice many times. While doing body mounts, head stuck in the rear well, saw lots of blistering but not peeling. A putty knife and down to bare metal in no time in a lot of areas. The rear tubs are an inner and outer halves and welded, seam sealed down the middle for 3'. Those seams were the worst areas. Cleaned them with a scraper, wire wheels and wire brush, dug the bad seam sealer out, pretty much all of it both sides of the car. New sealer, some fresh paint and should be good for many years. I'll continue to shoot a fresh coat of black when they need it.

My 86 hit 170K last year, bought with 9200 miles on it's fifth birthday. It was pristine, the first owner bought it for his car collection, never saw water other than a hose. I bought it off the showroom floor at the local Chevy dealership, it was realistically a new car yet, window stickers and all. Oh, and I paid good money for it in 1991. They were asking 14, I paid 11 plus the government chunk of change. I though a was very good deal.

It was immediately my wife's daily driver for her 17 mile trip to the office, down the 4 lane at 65 for 10 years. Bought her a brand new 02 SS as a Christmas present
Dec 01 and got the 86 as the new toy. The body preservation started when we, I, took possession of the 86 in 1991, I knew being full frame, RWD and just a shrunken A body sometime it would be my last toy car.

Need to say the car was Rusty Jones treated at birth, they make a mess of things when applying it but preserved the undercarriage for the 10 years as the wife's daily. If the car got wet it was driven daily 35 miles on the commute, big plus for drying a car. If it snowed the car sat and another form of transit was used, so never really driven in salt and snow. The past couple decades the toy has seen very little rain and rests comfortably in the shop out of the weather. For a 35 year old car it's what you could call a rust free NE car with a 170 k on the ticker, only the original black lacquer tells it's age.
Also need to add the the Rusty Jones has a life span. It dries over time and under the floor pans it will flake off when working in an area. Small pieces fall on the floor, the creeper wheels smash it and stick it to the floor, just like crayon. Easy cleanup, lacquer thinner and a rag. Have removed lots of it from the car over the years. Marc, those steel reinforcements on the plastic front wells were covered in it, areas of the firewall, inside the door bottoms, all over underneath. I used straight mineral spirits to remove it. Those metal strips were covered, they look like new with the Jones gone now.

Bob

#1070256 - 04/07/21 11:57 AM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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My objective is to be able to put the car outside in the rain and have no water enter the cabin. I have a new carpet to install, but won't install it until there are no more leaks.

I haven't looked at the right side of the car yet, but there is at least 1 leak on that side at the right corner of the firewall. I am doing just 1 side at a time.

The sealer inside the car in the area of the rear wheel tubs was a mess. There was a lot of rusted metal that I have already patched and resealed. The interior sealer where the floor meets the firewall and the rockers was also in terrible shape and was replaced. The interior is now well-sealed and painted with brushed-on Rustoleum rust reformer and 2 coats of Rustoleum rusty metal primer.

The car does not have signs of Rusty Jones treatment and the left side steel reinforcement on the plastic well was well rusted, so it was removed. My 1986 was treated with Rusty Jones.

Marc

#1070276 - 04/07/21 09:59 PM Re: Seam Sealing Behind Front Fender [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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Yesterday, I sprayed Rustoleum Rust Reformer in the area behind the wiper motor and applied the Rustoleum liquid Rust Reformer in the cavity between the panels where I had just removed the sealer.

Today, I sealed that seam as well as the seam at the base of the wiper bracket, that protects the bulkhead connector. The dab at the left is to seal a small hole that appeared when cleaning that area. There is a small "shelf" stamped into the firewall at that point that has allowed moisture and other corrosives to fester. I don't know why the firewall is flat at that point, but it is a bad design.

Marc

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