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#1070091 - 03/27/21 03:55 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Yesterday with the Hoosier A6 only on the front of the car made a trip to fill the tank with some fresh fuel and check for any rubbing of the frame or sway bar with the fatter tires. Before leaving turned the front tires lock to lock each side and plenty of clearance at all points, except with the high caster on the car now the tire is close to the front LCA in the rear.

A very windy day here with high crosswinds, 30-50 mph, wow the car was moving all over the place at 50 mph. The A6 are essentially fat bald tires with a couple very shallow grooves. I've had vans and know what it's like to be blasted from the sides by high crosswinds. I attribute lack of directional stability in the A6 to lack of center bars to help it to go straight. I've never felt the car move around as much as yesterday's ride.

Stopped in a parking lot and turned the wheels to the full lock left and right doing a 180 turn and heard the tires rub. Back in the shop verified not frame or sway bar but touching the LCA. This can be fixed by adding a little weld to the stops on the LCA. When the new tires/wheels go on will revisit this and correct.

After seeing what is unfolding in the Suez Canal and impacts on global trade pushed the send button at Tirerack and have four 660 tires arriving Mon. I've been personally impacted by the supply chain several times in resent months, like everyone else, and don't want to settle for something I don't want. My second tire choice was another set of Comp 2 but they are backordered from the Rack now.

Mark, I suspect the difference between a 330 and a 200 is substantial and there is a lot more to it than a Tirerack test on a skid pad. If there wasn't much of a difference the autox guys would be using the savings to run a tire that lasted longer. Tire wear life aside I need to see for myself if there is that much difference.
Ran the Comps 2 (330) five times at an autox and it was a handful to keep in on course. Just need to try something different.
Bob

#1070094 - 03/27/21 09:46 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi Bob,

Concerning directional stability with crosswinds, high caster doesn't help you because it yields lots of mechanical trail => a big moment arm for transverse forces to induce steering changes. Neumatic trail adds to the mechanical trail and enhances the phenomenon even more.

UTQG and autoxing: yes, I agree that there's more to tire performance than just UTQG and its implication for friction. So if I can find what the "something more" is and still get 330 UTQG, then I'd go for that, assuming such a combination exists. I'm using Michelin Pilot Sport 4Ss (UTQG = 300) on the street with a different car and love it, but that isn't autoxing.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 03/27/21 10:03 PM.
#1070097 - 03/28/21 01:15 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Have heard some guys like the Michelin Sport 4S but doesn't come in my size. The other Michelin the rich kids like is the Sport PS2 which comes in my size but near 1600 bucks for a set. The 660 at 800 I feel is a throw away. Not looking for the last set of tires for the car but ones I can play with for the next year or two.Time is ticking bye, there was no sunshine last year, gotta try to make the most of this year.

The last two times I ran an autox I took a slightly older friends who has raced several different types of cars, 100's of autox runs. His most recently career was course setup and the "lap time to beat", this was while working for a Prom company for high end new car manufactures. This took him all over the world and to a lot of venues, lucky him.
Prior to the first autox with me and prior to some of the latest suspension mods he needed to be familiar with my car so we spent an afternoon, he driving my 86 and i got to beat on his Mini S with some suspension improvements. Didn't take me long to get comfortable with that Mini.

The day of the 1st autox we met on site, it had rained and the track was damp. Strano setup the course and it was a fast course, off cambers, none of those silly chicago boxes that big cars don't fit in, and damp to wet early in the day. We got 4 runs each as driver with a rider, I learned a lot, but we both struggled with the car. That's when the mindset was to improve the car. That was several years ago.
The new tires and wheels aren't the cure for my age disadvantage but will without a doubt make the car better, at least a little. Just hoping a couple dates come open this year the car and I can make. One of the young guns in this area does extremely well in his Vette. Thinking I need to do a ride-a-long with him this year, in my car. With three SCCA regions in this area only one has anything scheduled, Philly has two in the Spring, strict Covid restrictions yet, no spectators.

We'll see, the year is still young yet.
Bob

#1070105 - 03/28/21 01:57 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: MAP]  
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Originally Posted by MAP
Hi Bob,

I wasn't sure whether "340" was a reference to the tire's UTQG treadware rating or something else. Evidently it was.

I looked at Tire Rack's rating of 0.99g on their test BMW for the 660 tire, and 0.97g for a 300 tire I picked. My question, assuming the numbers can be believed, is whether the difference of 0.02g worth a 33% reduction of treadlife.

Thx,
MAP


I can verify with absolute certainty the RT660 has at least twice the grip as the Continental contact sports. They aren't even close. Probably because the 660 in reality is nowhere close to a 200tw as stared

Fast FAST guys have shown a switch from a BFG Rival to a Yokohama on the exact same course can net a 1 second advantage...and those are both considered very fast tires. Tires are everything in autocross and great tires will make one feel like Superman.

340 tw tires are for getting to the race track...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1070108 - 03/28/21 07:45 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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You're grading on an extremely narrow curve (for statisticians; the ratio of sigma to the mean is very low: perhaps only 0.005-ish,) which makes perfect sense when the field is so competitive. But for the benefit of those reading here who drive their cars on the street, the tradeoffs are very differently weighed.

Last edited by MAP; 03/28/21 07:46 PM.
#1070116 - 03/29/21 05:32 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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After having several very good 330 Summer tires on the car, the BFG Comp and the BFG KDW in the past 10 or so years and now with the improvements to the car it's just time to step up to a tire that can take the most advantage of them. The 660 may be a short life span but the whole build intent for the past couple years is drive the car to an autox and be respectable, the 660 should help.

When the 660 is used up a 330 would probably go back on the car, I'll be well into my 70s,

Ya know one of the other things I always wanted to do with the car was a flying mile. Pretty easy on the car and engine, just gotta keep it straight. Only ever get to 120 or so, in 4th gear, still have a couple gears left yet. A tires directional stability probably means something at say 150. Speed rating wise most high performance tires are a Z rated, those KDW were Y rated, 186.
Don't know if a Z rated 200 tire is a good choice for 150 mph, direction stability of tread pattern at very high speeds may not be their strong point.
Bob

#1070155 - 03/31/21 09:44 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Yikes, yesterday "brown" pulled up in front of the house with four 660s. They are some meaty looking tire with aggressive tread. With two tires strapped together the UPS guy struggled to get them to me. I told him they were for my Civic.

Loaded them in the van and straight to the shop, couldn't leave them in there long, the fresh rubber smell would bother my sensitive wife. I did tell her they were ordered and on their way, a Suez thing, didn't want her to ask to many questions like, Why?

Did some measuring, stack of four unmounted new tires is 46". Stack of mounted 275/50x16 A6 Hoosier should measure 43.5". The 255/50x16 Comp on the car now should be around 41.2". Once mounted the 660s should come in at close to 44", very close to the A6 which were used to gauge the fit in the wheelwells of the new tires. Compared to the 16" Comps on the car there is a noticeable increase in usable tread width.

Lance's pic of his new 660's stacked was cool. Once the new tires are mounted will stack all three different tires on hand just to see the comparison.

Now have 14 tires for this car, time to thin that out, a lot.

Rear spacers are still at least a week out yet, will call my tire guy and see when the 660s can be mounted and balanced.

Was curious if the 660 were directional tires, pics I found couldn't verify that. But yep, right on the sidewall, directional. That is one of the reasons front and rear tires need to be the same size, I rotate often.

Have done some reading on the first heat cycling of the 660, just not sure how that gets done when outside temps are still only in the 60s. The trick is to get them hot but not to hot, then remove while hot and let sit for minimum of 24 hrs to cool to room temp. The serious autox guys will have either Tirerack heat cycle them before delivery or run a track event as 80 to 90% to get the tires hot and then remove them to cool. None of that works for me.
Bob

#1070160 - 03/31/21 11:54 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Sweet!! I can't wait to hear how you like them.

I just street drove mine for an afternoon to get the mold release off...the drove to the track and sent mine!!


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1070161 - 04/01/21 12:14 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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What are your street tire pressures and did you vary them for the event?
Bob

#1070165 - 04/01/21 01:37 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Can't wait to hear your review of the new tires. Once you get a few pics I wouldn't mind seeing them. Good luck and im sure you will be happy with the new tires.

#1070168 - 04/01/21 04:00 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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It is great to see that you are making progress. I'm looking forward to hearing how they handle on the road and course.

Fred


87 SS, Harwood cowl induction hood, UMI trailing arms. Hooker 2050 TES Headers (Jet Hot Coated). Goodwrench 350, Ported TPI, Trick Flow 56cc alum heads, SLP runners, Comp Cams 260AH-12 cam, Trick Flow 1.5 roller rockers, Bilsteins, TCI 2400 stall converter, Ramcharger fans, Denny's 3.5" Driveshaft, GBodyParts GNX Wheels 18x8 & 18x9.
#1070170 - 04/01/21 05:51 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Slow but steady progress. I did find the remnants of the 3M foil tape to cover the stick on wheel weights with today, that will save me 10 bucks.

Me too, having been chasing the car for years, the front end mods drastically change the car's turn in, stick, camber gain, bump and even tire clearance. The mods done to the rear most recently was to bring it up to the capabilities of the front end, compliment it, make it more neutral. This adventure into a 200 tires is like putting the icing on the cake I hope.

The KDW and the Comp 2 both lost their edge when they got 4 years old, but I hung onto them until they were 6 years old, neither was tread depth gone, just got old and compound changed. Don't think that will be a problem with the new tires.

Not one for washing and waxing cars very often. pretty is the soul, not the facade. Car sat most of Dec to Mar in the shop, don't own a car cover, California or bra, a 2 dollar rinse over at the car wash last week made it presentable enough until the first cars and coffee next month. But if i gotta take pics of the new wheel/tires guess I gotta get the soap and water on the paint. The sad part is the new wheels look exactly like the old wheels except a tad larger. Shots of the car exterior will look just like ones taken years ago. But my son hit the nail on the head, "mom will not even notice the wheels are new". I'm thinking that's a good thing.

This project wasn't that pricey, about 2 grand, but close to my yearly 86 budget already. Forgeline wheels would have been nice, even the same black mesh available from them, but WAY over the budget. Just need to be happy with the wheel/tire combo put together. Time will tell.
Bob

#1070174 - 04/01/21 01:52 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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When I put it in street mode to break new gears on I put tires at 32 psi cold. I still feel the cracks in road at this pressure but not too bad.

Race day gets 34 psi front, 28 psi rears...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1070181 - 04/02/21 02:05 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Not worried about cracks in the road. Here in Pa they call anything with less than a hundred 3" deep cracks per 1/4 mile a good road. Orange cones tell you to stay as far away as possible, maybe why I suck at getting close to them.

Have run higher pressures than that in the 255/50x16 on the car, constantly monitor PT, use the tread depth gauge often, rotate, generally really pay a lot of attention to tires to get the most even tread wear, contact as possible. Even with lots of camber up front and excessive tire spin in the rear the 10" tread width still stands straight when removed form the car. Dropping pressures down on the new tires will take some getting used to.
There is no easy way to tell what pressures to start with on the 660. Squeezing them onto a slightly narrow rim than recommenced should effect pressure a little.

Have done this before, especially with the drag radials and Hoosier slicks. Find a nice patch of blacktop and do a 10' burnout. Then inspect the patch for equal applied rubber. Once did that and took the car back to the shop and parked it, jumped in my van and back to the scene of the crime, parked along side the road where the patches were. As I'm inspecting the patches an officer pulls over and asks if everything is ok. Quickly said yep, and made up a story about something falling off my van. Good thing he didn't put two black stripes and two black stripes together.

It seems I may have fallen into Brent's parts purchasing ills. Ordered the rear spacer on 3/24, talked to them again on 3/27, got an email yesterday about problem processing the order, talked to them today and hoping we got the spacers on the way to the CNC, but still looks like two weeks.

Helping a friend find, make, install a heater core for his 67 Camaro, servicing my daughters GTP and getting ready to install a 1/2 shaft in the front of my brothers 2000 Dakota helps keep my mind off the 86 a little.
Purchasing a heater core for a 67 Camaro, SBC, non A/C seems to be a problem for a decade. Had 4 different cores in hand, not even close. the engine's tall valve covers compounds the problem. Did the "phone a friend" deal. Got that person's used core pulled from his 67 which just got a Vintage Air install. Took it to the rad shop to be tested and the 3/4" inlet's angle changed to clear the valve cover. Something that usually is easy got real complicated, but that happens when hot rodding old stuff.
Bob

#1070218 - 04/04/21 06:48 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi, Bob. Some years ago I read somewhere on the internet that one easy way to verify correct tire pressure, at least for street applications, is to use one of those non-contact laser pointer temp gages. I check the tread temp across the face of the tread. Generally higher temps in the center of the tread means the tire is over-inflated. Higher temps on the edges of the tread means the tire is under-inflated. Of coarse, the front is a little more diffiecult due to camber. But you should see a linear change in temp across tread of the tire. Does this make sense?

Fred


87 SS, Harwood cowl induction hood, UMI trailing arms. Hooker 2050 TES Headers (Jet Hot Coated). Goodwrench 350, Ported TPI, Trick Flow 56cc alum heads, SLP runners, Comp Cams 260AH-12 cam, Trick Flow 1.5 roller rockers, Bilsteins, TCI 2400 stall converter, Ramcharger fans, Denny's 3.5" Driveshaft, GBodyParts GNX Wheels 18x8 & 18x9.
#1070219 - 04/04/21 11:12 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Bob, I was hoping everyone on the forum was far enough away from East Tennessee to not catch my bad luck. I hope they get you straightened out on the spacers. I know you are ready to test the new tires out.

#1070235 - 04/05/21 07:56 PM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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MAP Offline
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Hi Brent/Bob - I think part of the problem is that with the slow, steady decline of hot-rodding over the years, many vendors no longer stock inventory but order from the factory only as needed. So, whatever time the factory takes, plus shipping, gets reflected back to the final customer.

Hi Fred - linear sounds good, but constant sounds better.

Last edited by MAP; 04/05/21 07:56 PM.
#1070236 - 04/06/21 12:45 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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A lot of it about importing. I find as the parts venders have shuffled the parts manufacturing "overseas" and all the hoopla about imports then throw the Rona on top of it many parts are hard to get. Go to Wallmart and try to buy a bicycle, or a frig or washing machine. I do appliances repair, pretty much all the parts come from "overseas" now. A common failure Whirlpool dryer door switch took 3 months to get, ordered the beginning of Dec, arrived the beginning of Mar. The broken ones replaced were China, the new ones Mexico. Whirlpool OE parts are Factory Service Parts, their replacement parts division for decades. On the plastic bag is printed Made in US. I could not figure out where US is, googled the hell out of it, came to the conclusion it means, Made by US.
GE couldn't sell their appliance division, finally Samsung bought it, jacked the prices of the part sky high, and stopped production of old parts. The million old GE dryers still out there will be junk when you can't get a heating element for it. I bought a dozen off Ebay before they are all gone.

My problem with the spacers was communications. The first person I talked to was knowledgeable, and answered my questions so I could know what their limitations were. Called back several day later to place an order and got someone much less adept at taking an order. Kinda like the waitress who screws up you drink order.
After that the first guy and I played phone tag until an order was finally sent to the CNC.
I think they will be correct when the arrive in maybe a week.

Today stopped to see when would be a good time to mount and balance the new wheel/tires. I don't do the drop off and pickup later thing. I've been called persnickety since a teen, lots of practice now.
Bob

#1070295 - 04/10/21 05:50 AM Re: 18 x 9 1/2" wheels [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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No spacers yet, an email from them said they are slammed and working hard to get orders filled.

Decided to change oil today, last time was Oct 2018, 2 1/2 years and 4400 miles on the Mobil 1, but a Wix filter changed every 1000 miles, gotta love Mobil 1 for that reason. All filters are cut open and the element final drained on paper for a few days. Then you can tell if anything evil is going on in the engine.

Still looking for a metal valve stem that fits my needs. As i was told the ones that have the nuts inside the wheel can't be tightened without breaking the bead if they leak. One of my Hoosiers has that problem. So trying to avoid that. External nut stems are not supposed to use a rubber washer on the outside, just a washer and nut but the washer is to large OD to drop into the bored hole. So still looking at what needs to be done there.

Not one for shiny tires but know there is a need to dress the rubber to help protect it and make cleaning/washing easy. The tire product I've used for several years is all but empty and no longer sold, it was a silicone base, a nice matte finish, and would last a season. But like all silicone base it would also get on the floor of the shop and stain the floor. We've all seem the overspray spray of it on the street where the guy did his tires. A lot of the new tire care products are water base, may not last as long but easier to apply with less sling and shorter dry times, and some are available in a matte finish. Unfortunately the shelves in the auto parts stores carry the big name products and most of the good water base are not there. Names like , Aero Cosmetics, Chemical guys, Opti-bond, Adams VRT, Lonestar are only found on the net, Did see Leno now has a product line of car care with a water based, saw that at the Boys today.

The new tires once mounted will get a washing front and back with Westley tire cleaner and then treated both sides before mounting. Will call that done until the end of the season. Just need to find a tire product I'll be happy with.

Slow and steady wins the race, thankfully I'm slow.
Bob

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