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#1069181 - 01/12/21 05:04 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Gettin kinda frustrating ain't it. Hang in there, eventually it all works out.

And as we know in today's marketplace you need to check and double check parts, take nothing for granted.
Bob


It is frustrating but it helps me for down the road.

#1069185 - 01/12/21 06:52 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Not sure what the final solution will be with some of the machine work but a guy I talked to at Trick flow felt that in my original pictures that my sweep was to wide. He felt that I should try a much longer pushrod which would push the sweep mark to the exhaust side of the valve but it would be a more narrow sweep. It also would allow the extra room for pushrod clearance.

#1069187 - 01/12/21 07:53 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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(Anyone know how I can copy/paste a previously-posted image here?)

Hi Brent - I'm in the process of ever-so-gradually forgetting my ICE-building experiences since even my most recent one is about 10 years ago, but I can say this about the side view of the rocker arm in your post #1069139:

The rocker ratio is not y/x. On the valve side, construct a virtual line along the valve's axis of symmetry upwardly. Ditto on the pushrod side. The perpendicular distance between each line and the axis of rotation of the arm defines the effective moment arm of that side. The ratio of the valve-side moment arm to the pushrod-side moment arm defines the rocker ratio.

An immediate consequence of this construction method yields a surprise: the rocker ratio isn't constant, but varies continuously as a function of valve lift (or pushrod lift: take your pick.) I believe the nominal rocker ratio is defined at zero valve lift, but I don't have certain knowledge of this.

I remember concerning a set of World Product heads I had, that I studied the sweep pattern of the rocker roller across the valve stem face throughout the valve lift range, and determined that for minimum valve guide wear, adjusting the pushrod length alone wouldn't suffice. So I had the heads machined to displace the rocker studs 0.050" inboard. World Products was surprised by this and asked to see proof, so I furnished it. Never heard back from them, unsurprisingly...

Anyway, if you adjust pushrod length for centering the wipe range on the valve stem face, you won't be far off. But neither will you be exactly on. Some builders say to center the contact at 2/3 valve lift, and I think this tends to get closer, but I can't get more specific without knowing the cam profile and the spring restoring force. But basically, if the guide is made from cast bronze that's machined, and if the guide gets a good oil supply, and if you adjust pushrod length for outcome (choose your paradigm,) you should be OK for the life of the engine.

Best,
MAP





Last edited by MAP; 01/12/21 08:07 PM.
#1069188 - 01/12/21 08:49 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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I thought one of the reasons to have the rocker's roller on the top of the valve stem to move equally inboard and outboard from center of the stem was to minimize the side loading of the valve stem in the valve guide.
It seems moving the pattern outboard would cause a higher side load on the stem.

Regard to the rocker ratio changing as it goes through lift.
http://performancetrends.com/Definitions/Rocker-Ratio.htm

My friend with the 305 and Twisted heads is stopping by later to drop off another damn plastic plenum the wife's 02 SS. He works at NAPA. Replaced it once already, hot antifreeze and garbage Dorman plastic plenum, not a good mix. Will ask if he had pushrod issues with his heads.
Bob

#1069191 - 01/13/21 12:19 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Hi Bob - That diagram is physically and graphically wrong. I expected better from - is his name Gertner (+/-)? I used his "Engine Analyzer Pro" for years.

OK, looks like I need to post a sketch...

(7 minutes later) let's see if this works (credit for the original picture to the link Bob provided):

[Linked Image]

I need to explain a bit of a subtlety: I've shown the valve in its closed position, with the roller tip contacting the valve stem face inboard of the valve stem CL, just as we'd expect. The moment arm isn't referenced exactly to the valve stem CL, but to a line parallel to it that contains the point where the roller tip contacts the valve stem face. The difference is small but still significant.

Ok - correction - found it: Performance Trends is Kevin Gertgen.

Notwithstanding all of the foregoing, what Kevin wrote about rocker ratio changing throughout the lift range is exactly correct.


Last edited by MAP; 01/13/21 04:02 AM.
#1069194 - 01/13/21 03:31 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Now you see why crate engines are so popular... laugh Sorry, couldn't resist. wink

Stay after it, you'll get it figured out. It sucks that we (the paying customers) have to be the guinea pigs and trial and error folks for the parts manufacturers anymore but it happens over and over and over again it seems.

Oh, and those rockers are identical for sure which is very interesting to me.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1069195 - 01/13/21 04:32 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Trick Flow is actually owned by Summit Racing, as are several other companies.
In the aftermarket business, many suppliers use the same manufacturer, which makes perfect economical sense.
Not unusual to have one guys parts in a competitors product line, rebranded, to complete their offering.
Gordon

#1069196 - 01/13/21 07:40 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Looking at the math again of the rocker. Using Kevin's rounded off measurements from the Crane Gold 1.6 rocker, 1.4" valve side and .875" pushrod, side to produce a 1.6 ratio. Using that same 1.4" to create a 1.5 ratio that numbers becomes .933". that would mean that the pushrod has moved .058" closer to the head at that point of contact. That's a lot. Using Brent's 1.38" and .85" for his 1.6 then a 1.5 would be .92", that .070"
Just can't understand the logic of them not making a 1.5 or 1.6 rocker an easy install, it's done all the time. It's just another 23 degree head, the lift at 1.6 is .470", standard base circle, standard lifter, why all the problems.

Couple reads about others having the same pushrod clearance problems.

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32034

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/16pushrodtoheadclearance.php

https://www.460ford.com/threads/pics-of-tfs-street-head-pushrod-clearance-problem.110445/

Talked to my friend with the 305 SS, not Trick Flow heads, Dart iron so no help. He's wondering the same thing, why is this so complicated.

Just another side note. Did you eliminate the EGR? If memory serves me the 305 EGR system dumps into the intake plenum somewhere, there is a port. Insure there are no leaks when closing off the intake gaskets and hole left by the EGR removal. A pipe plug was installed in my intake plenum to insure no vacuum leak possible.
When taller valve covers are used the EGR will interfere with the valve cover. Test fit if reusing the stock covers, if losing the EGR insure no possible vac leak.

Those 5746 head gaskets are .040" and are for a 4.125" bore, I would think gasket for the small 305 bore, 3.74", should be used. Like either the Mahle 3514SG which is 3.86".
One of the things you try to do is improve on the quench. Typically a SBC from the factory will have the piston .025-.030" down in the hole at TDC. That is deck height. Now add the thickness of the head gasket at .040" and the piston to head clearance at TDC is in the neighborhood of .070". The clearance for the quench to be OK should be in the low .040s. Because you can't decrease the deck height gasket thickness is the only other way to improve quench. For alum head the norm is .040 gaskets. Not really much choice other than a .040".

Just throwing more stuff out there to confuse ya.
Bob

#1069201 - 01/13/21 08:46 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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A side detour to the exhaust gasket discussion, if you continue to have problems, that graphite material has been around for a while and is pretty easy to work with. Look up a local gasket making shop and see if they have any scraps you can have, or if they can sell you a piece of it to make your own.
Get extra material if you can, the stuff without a steel shim is very easy to work with, but it is also very easy to bend and break. You can cut it with a butter knife (not recommended, of course), and bolt holes can be made with a punch on semi-rigid material like rubber sheet or maybe cardboard, or just hit it with a drill if you can hold it steady. They are quite fragile, but crush and seal well and can take almost any conditions. Get it locally, since it comes in sheets that can't bend. Buying online is probably expensive given how hard it is to handle, so local should take a good chunk of cost out of it. I think we used to get it in 4'x4' sheets sandwiched between plywood and banded together when I worked at a gasket shop in college, and had to be super careful receiving, stocking, and handling it. I'd guess that the ready made ones have a stainless shim in them to give some strength, but it pretty much eliminates the ability to easily cut one yourself at home.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1069202 - 01/13/21 08:52 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Now you see why crate engines are so popular... laugh Sorry, couldn't resist. wink

Stay after it, you'll get it figured out. It sucks that we (the paying customers) have to be the guinea pigs and trial and error folks for the parts manufacturers anymore but it happens over and over and over again it seems.

Oh, and those rockers are identical for sure which is very interesting to me.


Yes Lance I have thought about the crate engine thing quite a few times the last few days or why didn't I just leave it stock but what fun would either of those be. Lol.

I have lost a lot of confidence in the aftermarket the last couple of weeks. I get that there can be problems with matching different components but I feel both issues I have had could have been avoided. Now to see what comes of them.

Originally Posted by AkronAero
Trick Flow is actually owned by Summit Racing, as are several other companies.
In the aftermarket business, many suppliers use the same manufacturer, which makes perfect economical sense.
Not unusual to have one guys parts in a competitors product line, rebranded, to complete their offering.
Gordon


Both in Tallmadge. Just like the holley, speedhut, and nos gauges are all the same along with lots of other parts.


Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Looking at the math again of the rocker. Using Kevin's rounded off measurements from the Crane Gold 1.6 rocker, 1.4" valve side and .875" pushrod, side to produce a 1.6 ratio. Using that same 1.4" to create a 1.5 ratio that numbers becomes .933". that would mean that the pushrod has moved .058" closer to the head at that point of contact. That's a lot. Using Brent's 1.38" and .85" for his 1.6 then a 1.5 would be .92", that .070"
Just can't understand the logic of them not making a 1.5 or 1.6 rocker an easy install, it's done all the time. It's just another 23 degree head, the lift at 1.6 is .470", standard base circle, standard lifter, why all the problems.

Couple reads about others having the same pushrod clearance problems.

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32034

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/16pushrodtoheadclearance.php

https://www.460ford.com/threads/pics-of-tfs-street-head-pushrod-clearance-problem.110445/

Talked to my friend with the 305 SS, not Trick Flow heads, Dart iron so no help. He's wondering the same thing, why is this so complicated.

Just another side note. Did you eliminate the EGR? If memory serves me the 305 EGR system dumps into the intake plenum somewhere, there is a port. Insure there are no leaks when closing off the intake gaskets and hole left by the EGR removal. A pipe plug was installed in my intake plenum to insure no vacuum leak possible.
When taller valve covers are used the EGR will interfere with the valve cover. Test fit if reusing the stock covers, if losing the EGR insure no possible vac leak.

Those 5746 head gaskets are .040" and are for a 4.125" bore, I would think gasket for the small 305 bore, 3.74", should be used. Like either the Mahle 3514SG which is 3.86".
One of the things you try to do is improve on the quench. Typically a SBC from the factory will have the piston .025-.030" down in the hole at TDC. That is deck height. Now add the thickness of the head gasket at .040" and the piston to head clearance at TDC is in the neighborhood of .070". The clearance for the quench to be OK should be in the low .040s. Because you can't decrease the deck height gasket thickness is the only other way to improve quench. For alum head the norm is .040 gaskets. Not really much choice other than a .040".

Just throwing more stuff out there to confuse ya.
Bob


If I remember correctly we decided on the 5746 because it has a compressed thickness of .026 and its 4.100 with a volume of 5.4, the 3514sg is .045, 3.840, with a volume of 8.4. Not sure why the Summit link says .040 and 4.1125. Jegs and Mahle catalog both have the 5746 at the numbers I just listed. I will check when I get a chance. Kevin sent me this its from the mahle 2020 catalog.

[Linked Image]

#1069208 - 01/13/21 09:56 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: Hunter79764]  
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Originally Posted by Hunter79764
A side detour to the exhaust gasket discussion, if you continue to have problems, that graphite material has been around for a while and is pretty easy to work with. Look up a local gasket making shop and see if they have any scraps you can have, or if they can sell you a piece of it to make your own.
Get extra material if you can, the stuff without a steel shim is very easy to work with, but it is also very easy to bend and break. You can cut it with a butter knife (not recommended, of course), and bolt holes can be made with a punch on semi-rigid material like rubber sheet or maybe cardboard, or just hit it with a drill if you can hold it steady. They are quite fragile, but crush and seal well and can take almost any conditions. Get it locally, since it comes in sheets that can't bend. Buying online is probably expensive given how hard it is to handle, so local should take a good chunk of cost out of it. I think we used to get it in 4'x4' sheets sandwiched between plywood and banded together when I worked at a gasket shop in college, and had to be super careful receiving, stocking, and handling it. I'd guess that the ready made ones have a stainless shim in them to give some strength, but it pretty much eliminates the ability to easily cut one yourself at home.


Thanks for the heads up.

#1069214 - 01/14/21 12:24 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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About crate engines, a lot depends on who's doing the crating. It's always been true that most aftermarket hotrodding companies were started by enthusiasts first, technicians second, and engineers a distant third, if at all. My experience is that the quality of engineering is often poor, and design for robustness, miserable. It seems these people were thinking, "If gets down the strip once in one piece, the design is proven. Ship it."

I'm not saying this is true for all companies, and thankfully the situation isn't as bad as it used to be, but when I think of the thousands of dollars I wasted over the years due to poor quality engineering, let's just say an indelible mark has been left. If you want to call this hyperbole, so be it...

I'd shop from a company with a long history of producing quality products, who backs their products with a good warranty, and has a good BBB (or similar) rating. The downside of this is that you'll probably spend more money than you'd like. But my philosophy is to spend more to do it right once, than to spend less, roll the dice, and probably do it twice. Or three times. Or...

If you assemble your engine using parts you source from different manufacturers, the job is tougher since you need to do this for each supplier, and the chain is still only a strong as its weakest link.

About common parts from the same OEM: these bulk houses are often overseas. That doesn't necessarily make them worse, but I don't generally trust them as much as a proven domestic supplier. Again, the cost is likely to be higher.

Last edited by MAP; 01/14/21 12:32 AM.
#1069215 - 01/14/21 01:37 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: MAP]  
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Originally Posted by MAP
About crate engines, a lot depends on who's doing the crating. It's always been true that most aftermarket hotrodding companies were started by enthusiasts first, technicians second, and engineers a distant third, if at all. My experience is that the quality of engineering is often poor, and design for robustness, miserable. It seems these people were thinking, "If gets down the strip once in one piece, the design is proven. Ship it."

I'm not saying this is true for all companies, and thankfully the situation isn't as bad as it used to be, but when I think of the thousands of dollars I wasted over the years due to poor quality engineering, let's just say an indelible mark has been left. If you want to call this hyperbole, so be it...

I'd shop from a company with a long history of producing quality products, who backs their products with a good warranty, and has a good BBB (or similar) rating. The downside of this is that you'll probably spend more money than you'd like. But my philosophy is to spend more to do it right once, than to spend less, roll the dice, and probably do it twice. Or three times. Or...

If you assemble your engine using parts you source from different manufacturers, the job is tougher since you need to do this for each supplier, and the chain is still only a strong as its weakest link.

About common parts from the same OEM: these bulk houses are often overseas. That doesn't necessarily make them worse, but I don't generally trust them as much as a proven domestic supplier. Again, the cost is likely to be higher.



If I was to buy a crate engine it would be from chevrolet performance. I dont plan on buying one but if I did it would be them.

I've not heard much bad about trick flow and really don't have much to say, but we will see what their final answer is and go from there. Trick Flow was a name I had heard of and assumed it was a quality brand and at this point I will give benefit of the doubt, things happen and slip through the cracks. As far as the heads go I wouldn't have mind to spend more but it was the best for a 305.

#1069218 - 01/14/21 04:19 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Sounds good, Brent. Not trying to kick sand in your eyes, promise.

#1069219 - 01/14/21 04:53 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Just shows how important it is to be able to pick parts from reliable sources. Those 5746 specs are listed as .040" and 4.125" on the Summit webpage, that's why I mentioned looking for a better fit for your engine. It's hard to find a composite head gasket that is less than .040" for alum heads.

Talking about aftermarket parts. Had to replace the oil pressure gauge sender on the 86 several times. Had a Standard Products sender and it failed, got stupid and and would read zero and then normal. Bought a GM sender, it failed. Went to buy another sender and found out Wells was bought by Echlin, Echlin was bought out by Standard. Purchased a Wells, Echlin and another Standard to compare. They all are exactly the same even the old GM had Taiwan stamped in exactly the same place, just went in different boxes when they went down the line. So the choice of products for even OEM has narrowed greatly. You get what you get and be happy you can still get a part. Most everything is made overseas by a few, it's not about quality, it's about corporate profit. Even Edelbrock corp was bought out. Today a few Hedge funds own most all the aftermarket parts that supplied the car hobby. There goal is money, not product.
Bob

#1069225 - 01/14/21 11:42 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Just shows how important it is to be able to pick parts from reliable sources. Those 5746 specs are listed as .040" and 4.125" on the Summit webpage, that's why I mentioned looking for a better fit for your engine. It's hard to find a composite head gasket that is less than .040" for alum heads.

Talking about aftermarket parts. Had to replace the oil pressure gauge sender on the 86 several times. Had a Standard Products sender and it failed, got stupid and and would read zero and then normal. Bought a GM sender, it failed. Went to buy another sender and found out Wells was bought by Echlin, Echlin was bought out by Standard. Purchased a Wells, Echlin and another Standard to compare. They all are exactly the same even the old GM had Taiwan stamped in exactly the same place, just went in different boxes when they went down the line. So the choice of products for even OEM has narrowed greatly. You get what you get and be happy you can still get a part. Most everything is made overseas by a few, it's not about quality, it's about corporate profit. Even Edelbrock corp was bought out. Today a few Hedge funds own most all the aftermarket parts that supplied the car hobby. There goal is money, not product.
Bob


I have always been leary of a lot of the magazines. I one time read this from a "magazine" guy named Tony Defeo.

"The entire magazine thing left a really bad taste in my mouth. I enjoyed doing the work, and the feedback I got was always fantastic, but the system (in my mind at least) is corrupt to the core. The industry only exists to get the reader to spend money, where I on the other hand always looked to help my friends (The guys reading that stuff) get the most amount of bang for the least amount of bread. That's what makes the internet so great. No publishers or advertising people to pervert the gearhead lifestyle..it's one to one, and we can all share at whatever level our experience and knowledge allows."

I kind of panicked when you listed the head gasket sizes. I ordered them from summit around 2 months ago and that was not the size listed when I ordered it. Not sure why summit would change it but today I'm going to check it to make sure.

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/14/21 05:07 PM.
#1069227 - 01/14/21 11:46 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: MAP]  
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Originally Posted by MAP
Sounds good, Brent. Not trying to kick sand in your eyes, promise.


I didn't take it that way at all. As the the saying goes, it is what it is.

#1069256 - 01/16/21 05:15 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Some of us older guys got our feet wet with car magazines, there was no xxxx Monkey Garage, no Forums, you learned from the guy down the street and the car mags had articles about making cars go faster. Rarely was there anything about stopping or turning a corner. When you wanted a cam you went to a speed shop and hoped the owner had enough catalogs to look at. Early on learned the basic engine stuff from mags. For me it was more about all the advertisers where I learned about what was available. Not about what they boasted about but what was available. I passed thousands of dollars over a speed shop counter. It was the only way to get parts and mags were where you found out who was offering what. You made a long distance phone call to a performance parts maker and asked about the product he sold. Internet made that a little easier 20 years ago to get parts and still same problem, you don't know if it correct until you have it in your hand.

For years had either Super Chevy, Popular Hot Rodding, Car Craft, Hot Rod home delivered "at 1/3 their newsstand price". As mentioned they become nothing more than advertiser promotion. Later in life spent 26 years working for a newspaper, gave me another prospective on how advertising pays the bills.

We actually still have two speed shop in town. Both have changed hands several times. Never seems to have what I needed that day. No catalogs to look at, just a computer screen, just not the same shopping experience. Easier now to sit at the keyboard with a cup of coffee and call BS on a product. And I haven't had a car mag delivered in many years.
Bob

#1069257 - 01/16/21 07:24 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Bob, reading your earlier post, I wasn’t sure if you were thinking the 1.5:1 ratio rockers would have fitment problems or not. The 1.5” rockers will have the pushrod cup moved out towards on the lifter body, away from the rocker stud and towards the intake side valve cover rails. This will give more head (and guide plate) to pushrod clearance at the inward side of the pushrod (toward the rocker studs). There’s rarely if ever an interference issue with 1.5 rockers even with stock heads - I've never seen or heard of one.

Not so much here lately, but I’ve used a number of aftermarket heads over the years on builds I’ve done (mostly Dart, AFR, TFS, and the old Canfields). I used 1.6 rockers on most all of those builds and none ever had an interference issue with the head. However, I typically buy bare heads and would run .100 or longer valves for the added installed height needed for the particular springs needed – which means running longer pushrods.

I have had to grind one set of guide plates that came with a set of assembled heads (years back), but I typically buy bare heads and use the Isky adjustable guide plates on the higher horsepower applications (as you indicated, especially needed for those with non-stock valve spacing). The latest set of heads I had anything to do with were assembled 220 AFRs (decent hardware and the springs matched the cam well). Everything checked OK and there were no pushrod to head or guide plate clearance issues with the 1.6 rockers used. However, the rocker arms would not clear the spring retainers without running lash caps, which was no big deal as they were planned and I always use them with solid lifter cams anyway.

The issue I’m having in general and with Brent’s build in particular is it’s become increasingly obvious that it’s become even harder for me to have faith in any parts you buy from any company. I mean, I’ve always known you have to check parts but I kept spreadsheets with part numbers on builds to insure things would go together smoothly for the next similar budget and power build. I would hit an occasional snag but back then for the most part even things on the first build of a “series” went together fairly smoothly.

Fast forward to recent times,,,,, the 406 I built for my buddy last year had one issue after another – seemed like there was some issue with just about everything he had bought before he asked me to build the thing for him. Two things REALLY got to me. I had to elongate the holes on the cast timing chain cover so the crank seal would be centered and the oil pan would seal. I can’t help but feel sorry for the guy that would have missed that – he would have known soon after cranking with the oil leaks though. I even had to modify the carb mounted fuel pressure regulator bracket to clear the accelerator pump arms and hoses to the fuel bowls. Really???? Obviously NO one there even checked to see if THEIR product would fit the application it was supposedly designed for.

#1069259 - 01/16/21 08:17 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Breaking up an already entirely too long of a post – lol

Magazines – they used to be pretty good back in the day and were a good source of information. I got most my initial basic knowledge from spending almost every day for a little over a week with an out-of-state uncle in his shop that bracket raced (numerous trophies and track records) AND he built his own engines - as luck would have it he happened to be building a new engine for his car at the time. Bought books by Smokey Yunick, Grumpy Jenkins, and David Vizard but the most knowledge came from trial and error. A close friend and I intentionally built near identical engines. He was the only person that knew what I had in my engine and vise-versa. I would try a part and if it worked he would buy it also. If he bought a part and it didn’t work I’d know NOT to buy it and vise-versa. Doing this, we about doubled our learning curve in half the time anyone else would have.

Almost 18 years ago now,,, I wrote a couple free-lance technical articles for GM HighTech and a number of feature articles for Popular HotRodding. I can tell you it was all about the advertisers. I wrote one about swapping out a ported stock TPI for a StealthRam intake. All was well there as the results were favorable for Holley. I wrote a follow-up article where I swapped the Holley for a FIRST TPI (like a GM TPI on steroids). I had comparison data and the FIRST was actually a few hundredths quicker – it was a MUCH better fit for the car and had insane throttle response. He said he loved the article but couldn’t run it because he knew he would get crap from Holley and couldn’t afford for them to cut any advertising dollars because of it.

I said, OK let’s take out the comparison data and not mention Holley. I said I could even take out the comparison to the ported stock TPI and just write about the FIRST's own merits. I was given two reasons for a no go on both accounts. 1) The StealthRam article was only a few months old and people would remember it was the same engine/car and could pull the older article to compare. 2) FIRST LLC was (still is) a small mom and pop company and not an advertiser. Quoting him, “I doubt they could afford to advertise enough for me to even chance ticking off the folks at Holley”.

I never brought it back up and never did another technical article for them or anyone else. Eventually stopped doing the feature articles – loved talking to most of the car owners, but it was obvious the magazine only picked the cars with high dollar parts - again advertising related. NOW, do not get me wrong, I TOTALLY understood – business is business and at that point in time the magazines were really fighting to stay alive in a digital world.

Last magazines I bought have all been Engine Masters Challenge related. Love seeing SAM related articles also. One last thing (I promise lol), there has always been regurgitating of older articles, where they change just enough stuff around for it to kinda look like a new article. However, I’ve noticed a lot more of that lately and some are rather disturbing to me. Some were originally written saying one brand of product was used and 10 years later the same results but now indicating another brand. Was it a mistake then, or now? Or,, was/is it a mistake at all? Who knows.

#1069260 - 01/16/21 05:33 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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So here is a update to the trick flow head situation. I contacted them about the issue on the 8th of January. I spoke with Howard Woodburn originally he took my info and we had a couple of emails go back and forth over a few days. I suggest any questions you have with them be through email, phone system you wait a long time, sometimes you get through sometimes system just hangs up on you and voicmail is always full. Email they answer back pretty quick.. Then I didn't hear anything so I got a little frustrated with the situation. I contacted them again and was dealing with a gentleman named Eddi Pinegar. The reason I did not hear back from Howard was he was off for a day or rest of week. I get it people have lives outside of work. So I sent emails back and forth with Eddi mostly the same stuff but I understand he needs the info. So Eddi sends me an email this morning saying he will mock up everything on a engine with the components I have. He will send me new heads, pushrods, and rockers with everything taken care of and I will send my heads back in supplied boxes. At this point my faith is restored and I have recieved good customer service from Trick Flow and Eddi. This is more than I expected and it seems that Eddi stands behind the trick flow products and is willing to help the consumer and make things right. I will keep everyone up to date.

#1069262 - 01/16/21 06:06 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Kevin good to see you're not shy about banging on a keyboard. Brevity seems to be the order of the day. Ask a question and hope for an answer, "yep" is what you get most times.

Back in 1970 was building my 62 Nova, DZ shortblock, Muncie and a 4.88 12 bolt. I found Headers by Ed advertising in the back of one of the mags. A couple phone calls to give him specs on my build and an excellent set of tuned under chassis headers were delivered to my door. No one sold under chassis headers for a Chevy II back then except Ed. My sister lives in Minneapolis, Ed's shop was located a few miles away. I made it a point to stop by his house/shop two different times to meet up with him. His stories about advertising costs and how the mags were all about "he who paid the most for advertising is the best product". They priced him out of the car mags.
http://www.headersbyed.com/

I understand when we read mag articles, posts on forums, internet advertising and stories that they need to be taken as opinion. We all know what opinions are like, and everyone has one, myself included.
Bob

Kevin on the home stereo side. Ever heard of a speaker company called Design Acoustics back from the mid 70s?

#1069265 - 01/16/21 07:31 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
So Eddi sends me an email this morning saying he will mock up everything on a engine with the components I have. He will send me new heads, pushrods, and rockers with everything taken care of and I will send my heads back in supplied boxes. At this point my faith is restored and I have received good customer service from Trick Flow and Eddi. This is more than I expected and it seems that Eddi stands behind the trick flow products and is willing to help the consumer and make things right.


That is excellent news and I'm glad they're doing the right thing and then some for you!!! It does restore faith knowing there are still people and companies out there that care about their products and consumers!!!

#1069266 - 01/16/21 07:59 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Bob, in the emails you sent me with your fuel regulator I noticed you had the dual snorkel. Did you use the camaro air ducts or something else?

#1069267 - 01/16/21 08:36 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Kevin good to see you're not shy about banging on a keyboard. Brevity seems to be the order of the day. Ask a question and hope for an answer, "yep" is what you get most times.

Yep smile

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Back in 1970 was building my 62 Nova, DZ shortblock, Muncie and a 4.88 12 bolt. I found Headers by Ed advertising in the back of one of the mags. A couple phone calls to give him specs on my build and an excellent set of tuned under chassis headers were delivered to my door.

I never ran a set but I've always heard good things about them. There are a number of companies generating exceptional products that the typical consumer knows little to nothing about. They typically cost a good bit higher than the mass produced products, but many times the costs are well warranted. I too remember all to well the days looking in the back of the magazine at those stamp sized ads for phone numbers.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
I understand when we read mag articles, posts on forums, internet advertising and stories that they need to be taken as opinion. We all know what opinions are like, and everyone has one, myself included.

I can get hung up on the word opinion. If there truly is a right or wrong, there's not really an opinion involved there. I get what you're saying and agree. Everyone should take what they read anywhere with a grain of salt. I've debunked a number of things over the years that were considered gospel - you truly don't know for sure until you try it yourself. No one knows everything. For instance, I've been wrong before - I thought I was wrong. LOL - that was one of my favorite sayings that my dad used.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Kevin on the home stereo side. Ever heard of a speaker company called Design Acoustics back from the mid 70s?

I have heard of them but can't recall if I ever heard any of them. In the late 70's and early 80's I did go around to the home audio places to listen to find speakers I liked and then tried to get replacement drivers that I could use in the car or for home use in home-made enclosures.. Talk about hard to get parts before the internet!! I can only recall back then what I liked and tried to get raw drivers for - which were KEF, Acoustic Research, and Altec Lancing. I also really liked their car audio speakers in the 80s (along with A/D/S).

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