MonteCarloSS.com
MonteCarloSS.com

CELEBRATING 20 YEARS!

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 20 1 2 3 4 19 20
#1069104 - 01/06/21 08:35 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 43
CM1SCW Offline
Member
CM1SCW  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 43
Lenoir City, TN
Brent nice work you are doing. Just an update on my project kevin has all the old parts out, rack and pinion and new fuel tank in. They have the interior removed for tunnel mod. Kevin posts photos on his Facebook kevin riffey hot rods. Just thought I give you a status and hope to see yours later this year.

#1069107 - 01/07/21 01:05 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: CM1SCW]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
Originally Posted by CM1SCW
Brent nice work you are doing. Just an update on my project kevin has all the old parts out, rack and pinion and new fuel tank in. They have the interior removed for tunnel mod. Kevin posts photos on his Facebook kevin riffey hot rods. Just thought I give you a status and hope to see yours later this year.


Thank You Andrew. I saw it on there I think about a week ago. I already followed him and figured it was your car. Thats a great color combo (black,gold stripes,saddle interior). That will be one mean car when done. Thanks for the update and can't wait to see it when done.

[Linked Image]


Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/07/21 01:09 AM.
#1069108 - 01/07/21 02:05 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
Pearl, MS, 39208
Brent and Gordon, thanks for the Kudos. Glad to be able to help those on the board when I can - especially those that give back to the community!

I’m very interested in Brent’s build log and results. There have been a couple magazine builds of 305s with Vortec and the better flowing TrickFlow heads that delivered very good results. He’s doing all the right things and I’m expecting him to be very happy with the outcome. I’m sure he will enjoy it while he works toward developing his 400 build.

#1069109 - 01/07/21 02:28 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
Pearl, MS, 39208
Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
I think you and Bob have talked me into that nice vacuum gauge. Lol. It will be alot easier installing 2 gauges at once instead of waiting to get the other and remove everything to install. Just like that I was able to reason with myself why I need it.


LOL, there are some enablers on here - that's meant in the best possible way, as I consider myself one!

I might would have to call SpeedHut and ask them why their vacuum only gauge seems priced on the high side. Their pricing on the Boost/Vacuum combination gauge seem to be reasonably priced, but their vacuum only gauge is over twice what Autometer gets for theirs. Never know, as a repeat customer they might cut you a break. Worst they can say is bug off and you're still no worse off than you started.

#1069112 - 01/07/21 04:17 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
AkronAero Online content
10+ Year
AkronAero  Online Content
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
Akron OH
Still, you get the separately adjustable needle and backlight plus high/low alarm light....
Wiring is a pain esp with 9 gauges. I told Speedhut they need micro connector block (terminal strip) to consolidate it all. I am happy with them but see why others drop in Dakota Digitals.

Speaking of enablers, I would not have tackled the restomod without this site and input from Lance and many others who started me down this rabbit hole. And I definitely would not be tearing into a nearly new 500+ hp 383 if you hadn't been there Kevin to feed my addiction! Why they ask? Because I can! Thanks to all.
What's next Brent?
Gordon

#1069131 - 01/08/21 02:38 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,008
Buick Runner Offline
10+ Year
Buick Runner  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,008
Dharma station 1 the Hydra
Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Originally Posted by CM1SCW
Brent nice work you are doing. Just an update on my project kevin has all the old parts out, rack and pinion and new fuel tank in. They have the interior removed for tunnel mod. Kevin posts photos on his Facebook kevin riffey hot rods. Just thought I give you a status and hope to see yours later this year.


Thank You Andrew. I saw it on there I think about a week ago. I already followed him and figured it was your car. Thats a great color combo (black,gold stripes,saddle interior). That will be one mean car when done. Thanks for the update and can't wait to see it when done.

[Linked Image]



Looks similar to a black MFP interceptor from Mad Max 1.

I also had fuel pressure issues with my SMI rebuilt CCC Qjet. Installed a fuel pressurd regulator and fixed everything and now have finer control over the fuel mixture dwell. Nobody seems to make mechcanical fuel pumps with the correct fuel pressure anymore. Probably every carb engine will need regulators installed anymore.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1069133 - 01/08/21 01:03 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
I put one of the heads on to check piston to valve clearance and pushrod length. Really should be no worries about piston to valve clearance but figured I would take the extra time and check it. Also decided to take the extra time and try both methods of checking pushrod length (half-lift center method and witness mark method). I also checked pushrod length with the solid lifter. After some discussion with Kevin we decided to check with the flat tappet hydraulic lifter because there was a .050 difference in seat height between the two lifters and the check springs should not have enough on them to preload the lifter.

Half-lift center line method

[Linked Image]

Witness mark method

[Linked Image]

While doing this I kept coming up with different readings. I noticed that the pushrod tool was catching the guide plate as you can see in the half-lift picture. So I removed the guide plate and noticed it was making contact with the head.

[Linked Image]

The heads are advertised as recommended 1.6 ratio rocker and 5/16 pushrod. I checked the pushrod tool and it was .313. Im going to move to the next cylinder over and see if issues continue. Try another rocker and a few other things. Also try to call trick flow to see if they have any know issues. I tried calling them yesterday atleast 5 times. I would sit on hold for 10 minutes then the system would hang up on me. Then I tried leaving a voice-mail but it was full. I guess try to email them. If anyone has anything to try just let me know.

#1069136 - 01/09/21 05:48 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
Pottstown, Pa
Man you would hope it's not time to get out the die grinder again. The 1.6 rocker would move the pushrod closer at the point. But you would think Trick Flow would know that and allowed for it. A sigh of compassion.

Had something like that with valve train parts on the AFR heads. Checking stem contact realized the 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers where close to hitting the spring retainer. Should be .050" to be safe at all points in lift, had zero. Sent them back to Summit and had to go Crane Gold which had plenty of clearance.

Several years later had three valves where the keepers were failing. The retainer was sliding up on the valve stem. Luckily the ticking noise from the valvetrain told to pull the valve covers before dropping valves. Called AFR and got new stem seal "for my heads", Manley keepers and replaced everything. Turned out AFR sent me 8 mm seals instead of the older 5/16" seals, .027" difference in stem size, Yes I should have caught that. When you install new seals with the heads on the engine, valves in head, you put a plastic sleeve over the stem to protect the seal from getting cut by the stem's keeper grooves. Never realized it was wrong seals when installing. Found that out when I couldn't stop the smoking on a trip to Carlisle. Opps, AFR bad. Take it apart again and do the correct seals.

Later upgraded to PSI beehive springs, tool steel retainers and new keepers and seals again. Because the heads are 15 years old, having 5/16" stems instead of the newer 8 mm valves and when they are combined with the tool steel retainer's for an LS7 fitment odd keepers need to be used. Putting that collection of parts together wasn't easy, required some researching the Manley catalog.
Very soon time to do an R&R on that expensive valve train.

I think your contact pattern is very good. I found some black magic marker on the stem works well, just make sure you check a few intakes and exhausts. And lifter should be the one you are going to use. When you throw aftermarket parts on an engine you shouldn't take things for granite. I like misspelling that word.
Pushrod length required can change from a lot of different parts. Even milling a set of heads and doing a valve job where the seat is sunk a little will effect stem contact.

Out of the box heads quality I've read you need to not assume everything is hunky-dory. Besides alum chips being present there was a question of valve sealing.
The PITA would be removing the valves without damaging the brand new seals to inspect the seat sealing. You could blue the seats and spin the valves and have a good idea of seat contact. Maybe Kevin could elaborate on that, whether he see's that as necessary.

Keep after it.
Bob

#1069139 - 01/09/21 04:08 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Man you would hope it's not time to get out the die grinder again. The 1.6 rocker would move the pushrod closer at the point. But you would think Trick Flow would know that and allowed for it. A sigh of compassion.

Had something like that with valve train parts on the AFR heads. Checking stem contact realized the 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers where close to hitting the spring retainer. Should be .050" to be safe at all points in lift, had zero. Sent them back to Summit and had to go Crane Gold which had plenty of clearance.

Several years later had three valves where the keepers were failing. The retainer was sliding up on the valve stem. Luckily the ticking noise from the valvetrain told to pull the valve covers before dropping valves. Called AFR and got new stem seal "for my heads", Manley keepers and replaced everything. Turned out AFR sent me 8 mm seals instead of the older 5/16" seals, .027" difference in stem size, Yes I should have caught that. When you install new seals with the heads on the engine, valves in head, you put a plastic sleeve over the stem to protect the seal from getting cut by the stem's keeper grooves. Never realized it was wrong seals when installing. Found that out when I couldn't stop the smoking on a trip to Carlisle. Opps, AFR bad. Take it apart again and do the correct seals.

Later upgraded to PSI beehive springs, tool steel retainers and new keepers and seals again. Because the heads are 15 years old, having 5/16" stems instead of the newer 8 mm valves and when they are combined with the tool steel retainer's for an LS7 fitment odd keepers need to be used. Putting that collection of parts together wasn't easy, required some researching the Manley catalog.
Very soon time to do an R&R on that expensive valve train.

I think your contact pattern is very good. I found some black magic marker on the stem works well, just make sure you check a few intakes and exhausts. And lifter should be the one you are going to use. When you throw aftermarket parts on an engine you shouldn't take things for granite. I like misspelling that word.
Pushrod length required can change from a lot of different parts. Even milling a set of heads and doing a valve job where the seat is sunk a little will effect stem contact.

Out of the box heads quality I've read you need to not assume everything is hunky-dory. Besides alum chips being present there was a question of valve sealing.
The PITA would be removing the valves without damaging the brand new seals to inspect the seat sealing. You could blue the seats and spin the valves and have a good idea of seat contact. Maybe Kevin could elaborate on that, whether he see's that as necessary.

Keep after it.
Bob



Like I told Kevin the other day, if it was easy everyone would do it. I agree that trick flow should add more clearance in that area seeing that the recommended rocker is 1.6. I might have to break out the die grinder. I have no problem grinding the heads and I would probably just set the guide plates up on the old Bridgeport mill I have access too. Might be a little easier.

I dont really understand why trick flow says that the half lift method is more accurate and the one you should use. I tried both ways and I like the witness mark better but thats just me.

One thing I have learned with this whole engine building/aftermarket thing is to double check, then triple check. Just like the piston to valve clearance yes it was fine but what if not.

Are all 1.6 rockers created equal dimensionally? I drew this picture, excuse my eraser marks as I was thinking it out in my head as I was drawing. If dimensions 1 or 2 were different it could make a difference? At some point today I'm going to call Kevin and work through this and look at my options. If any one has a thought about it I would like to hear it also.

[Linked Image]

I thought about ordering these tfs rockers just to see if there is a difference. I usually can order from summit and get them the next day. If not I could just return them.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-31400513


One thing I don't understand is trick flow says you will need a longer pushrod than stock (7.800) which clears the guide plate and pushrod slot. Everything ive checked to get the right geometry i will need shorter (roughly around 7.700) to get my witness mark in the center of valve tip.

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/09/21 04:15 PM.
#1069141 - 01/09/21 07:26 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
I should clarify. Does anyone know if different rockers have different dimensions as far as between the solid and dotted line?

[Linked Image]


Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/09/21 07:28 PM.
#1069142 - 01/09/21 08:11 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
Pottstown, Pa
I have a damaged Crane 1.6 rocker in a box at my shop but not able to access it for a while. That would be an easy rocker to measure. Looked at several rockers manufactures and other than ratio no one seems to tell you what the actual measurements are. A stock stamped rocker would be much harder to check, and they seem to vary several hundredths of a point in ratio.

My thinking is the Y is a standard length and the X is where you change the ratio. A quick guess would be a SBC 1.6 is .050" shorter at X than a 1.5 using 1.25" as Y.
Bob

#1069146 - 01/09/21 10:09 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
Pearl, MS, 39208
I texted him earlier - I measured a set of new-old-stock Crane 1.6 rockers I had left over from my old speed shop.
I measured y at 1.408 and x at 0.8785 = 1.6027. Pretty sure Crane's target was and it probably is 1.4 and 0.875 = 1.6.

As far as 1 and 2 in the diagram. I'm pretty sure their relation wouldn't make a difference in the ratio generated, However, looking and doing the best measuring I could, it appears that the bottom of the roller tip and the flat part of the pushrod cup is parallel to the flat portion of the rocker pad fulcrum. That would make sense to me but if that really doesn't matter, I could definitely see where that would affect how high or low the rocker sat on the stud and subsequent pushrod length. I'd have to do some research or think a lot harder than I'd want to stress my brain to figure out all that smile.

Anyway, just spoke to Brent and he's measured y and x on his rockers at 1.38 and 0.85 for a 1.623 ratio. So it appears there are some fractional differences between brands of rockers. He's thinking that extra 0.025" or so may be enough to clear the heads - still would need to clearance the guides for .010" clearance, but that would be easy enough. Don't want to infringe on his post, but it looks like he's going to order some TFS narrow body rockers to see how they work out. At least that way TFS can't say it's because he's not using their rockers. Hopefully they'll work out for him.


#1069147 - 01/10/21 02:14 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
You are not infringing at all. I enjoy the open dialog and this might help someone. That one guy will be looking for answers to his problem and stumble across this.

So we came up with 3 options. At the end of the day this is not a huge problem and can be worked around. Alot of times when I first come across a problem it seems like a mountain but after research and talking it over with someone and a night of tossing it around In the brain it just becomes a mole hill. Numerous people have came across this same problem. Its all good experience.

1. I ordered the above tfs 1.6 rockers . As it seems there is quite a bit of variance in rocker arms. Interesting article https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1305-rocker-arm-comparo/
See what we come up with. If no change send them back to summit.

2. See what Trick flow says after trying their rocker arm. Who knows what they might say.

3. Pull valves, lap valves, check all machine work, then if all is well break out the grinder and throw the guide plates on the bridgeport.

#1069148 - 01/10/21 06:38 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
Pottstown, Pa
I think ratio may change a very small amount on roller rockers as they travel from 0 to full lift. But a stock rocker with a pallet instead of a roller the ratio will change a fair amount. Another advantage of the roller rocker. It's probably difficult to get a good Y and X measurement off your old stock rockers.

Brent another thing to check. If reusing the stock valve cover make sure the rockers aren't going to rub the PCV baffling inside the covers. Going to a narrow body rocker should insure the rockers don't touch the baffles. The stock baffling is very good at separating air/oil and potential oil pulled into the PCV. Reusing the stock valve covers on this build would be a good idea. To many aftermarket covers lack any notable baffling.

Some of the high flowing SBC heads splay the valves, move them apart to allow a larger diameter valve, usually intake. Moving the intake away from the exhaust will change the angle of the rocker, it will need to rotate a little to align to the center of the valve stem, so rocker stud is also moved away from the exhaust stud. Guide plates help you align the whole mess.
On a SBC intakes are paired together so the distance between rocker arms gets closer by two, say .050"x2. Throw a fat rocker arm on and not much room for baffles. Been that whole route with valve covers selection.

Had four sets of very expensive aftermarket valve covers test fitting them on my build, engine on the stand. One fabricated cover was baffled like stock and would not fit between the rockers, one had no baffling, another wanted you use a rubber baffle "tube", the GMPP covers had a just a piece of alum across the opening. And all of those covers were in conflict with either the A/C compressor, EGR, throttle/cruise. All were returned to sender.
Ended up having a set fabricated to my height specs. They came sans any PVC openings. Stealing GM's baffle design reduced their size in alum and TIGed them in. Before they got all oily had them black anodize locally.
One of the most unusual valve cover around and guaranteed a candidate for most expensive set. Nobody sees them on an all black engine. But they physically fit and PCV works great.
Why did i bring all that up. IF you go bigger SBC later and have that need to go faster valvetrain, heads is a big part of the build. Heads as you found out can throw you a curveball. While getting you hand dirty now it easier to see how aftermarket parts effect each other. So even pretty valve covers can cause issues. Baffles are part of the build. A good PVC system is a big plus whether carbed or injected.

Rocker arm studs. You can manipulate the guide plates to align the pushrods. The threaded hole for the studs may or may not be blind, Thread sealant on your final install may be necessary.

Question. header gaskets and bolts with the new heads?
Bob

#1069149 - 01/10/21 03:46 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
This is the set of valve covers im using.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-00-SB...362383295?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

They seem good quality, everything was flat and true so we will see. When I first got them I test fit them with all the rockers on the head and everything cleared. They have the baffles in them. Once all the bugs are worked out on the heads and valve train im going to try the stock valve covers, I didnt realize rockers would ride so low. I dont plan on having egr or cruise control. If I run the tall valve covers it looks like I might be alright but I might have to run a little longer ac belt.

Header gaskets im using

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pte-h7585

Probably not the best gasket but my headers are raised weld oval, heads are d port. Difficult to find a gasket to fit the the headers i have.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pte-h8096

High collar lock washers

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-4710

And header bolts

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1209

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/10/21 04:24 PM.
#1069150 - 01/10/21 05:28 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
Pottstown, Pa
Yep a tall valve cover and compressor clearance can be a problem. I "stretched" the compressor locating bracket outward 1 1/4" to get more clearance for my taller than stock but shorter than the tall covers sold. That allows the cover to be pulled without removing the compressor. I don't need to run a stud girdle on the heads, the reason for the really tall covers. But needed more room for the valve train. Have a few set of stock height covers that just wouldn't work. Some of the covers sold have an angle on the front corner to clear the compressor, most won't work with big rocker arms.

Matching the D port head to a header that compromises it's flange contact has caused some to hate headers, Sealing at the head to header flange can be a continuous fight. Ask Lance. Nothing more annoying than a tick from a leaking gasket there.
Have used the Fel Pro 1404 gasket, ARP stainless bolts, no lock washer, Never-sez (alum heads) and haven't touched the header bolts in years. Once you go through the bolts a 1/2 dozen times snugging then after the initial start up they haven't needed touched since.

Another option for annoying header flange leaking is to use the FelPro MS9275B that is sold for stock heads and cast iron manifolds. When I had the TES headers on the 305 I had to resort to them.
Bob

#1069152 - 01/10/21 09:44 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
Pearl, MS, 39208
I ran 3.5" tall "squared" valve covers (Moroso 68415) on the SS with the factory air. I was lucky enough to find a belt that fit perfectly with the compressor maxed out on the bracket. I don't remember the procedure, but I could loosen the brackets to move the compressor out of the way enough to remove the covers for valve lash checks/adjustments. I do remember I never loosen the top bolts on the compressor and would just tighten the bracket back up to put the tension back on the belt. It wasn't all that bad considering the benefit of having AC on a daily driver.

The covers that Brent bought are 3 3/8" tall (0.125" shorter than what I ran) but I noticed the other day that the head's instructions said the valve cover rails were raised 0.300". If not for that I'd think his new covers would clear - now it might be questionable. Best I remember I had maybe 0.25" wiggle room - so hopefully they'll clear.

Oh, I did have to run the really thick valve covers to be able to have enough room to run the PCV with the stud girdles - so thinner gaskets may end up being the key for clearance.

#1069153 - 01/11/21 02:06 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
AkronAero Online content
10+ Year
AkronAero  Online Content
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
Akron OH
Brent, Bob and Kevin - a further question on exhaust gaskets...
I am running a 383 with AFR 1036s (195cc and straight plugs) mated to Hooker Comp full length headers.(2451-2HKR 1-5/8" in 16ga 304 SS which calculates to 1.495" ID).
Had some problems getting a good seal when we put this together 8 years ago and settled on two (unknown) aluminum gaskets on each side.
Pulled to replace cam and lifters and found carbon on flange faces showing poor fit of gasket to headers and some leakage, primarily at the extreme ends where the gaskets are very narrow.
* AFR exhaust is listed as "square" and then as 1.46" H x 1.56" W; raised 0.10"
* Hooker tubes are somewhat squared and welds not uniform in thickness so coverage not consistent although generally adequate except the ends....
* AFR recommends Fel-Pro 1404 (as Bob mentioned) with 1.5" x 1.5" holes - as with my current gaskets they are thin at the ends: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1404
* Hooker recommends their Hooker Super Comp 10808HKR - Hole is 1.34" H x 1.34" W and has more meat at the ends; https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hok-10808hkr
Would you recommend the Fel-Pro 1404s? Or go for the Hooker gasket with the meatier ends? And if so would the smaller holes (1.34" sq) cause much restriction?
Any sealant suggested?
Thanks in advance,
Gordon

#1069154 - 01/11/21 04:54 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,850
Pearl, MS, 39208
Gordon, I've been using Mr. Gasket Ultra Seal header and collector gaskets for many years. Before using them I had constant problems with header gaskets. Tried them all (at that time and nothing else seemed to work). Headers overlapping the cylinder head ports have been a pet peeve of mine since day one. Hardly any of them make a true "same as (exhaust) port" or square flange - makes no sense to me other than I'm sure the extra step in shaping the tubing would increase costs (which I for one would be willing to pay).

I was looking for a part number on the Mr. Gaskets that looked like would mate up to your heads and ran across a new-to-me (Remflex) headers gasket. Never seen as high a rating for header gaskets before. They're thick graphite gaskets and have one that is specifically for AFR heads that match your cylinder head ports perfectly. The end bolt holes are not notched and appears to have the extra meat you're talking about. Think I would have to try them. They also look like they have one for the Dart heads I'm running with the slightly wider centered bolt holes that I always have to modify on all other gaskets. Just might try them myself.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rfl-2081

#1069156 - 01/11/21 07:16 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
Pottstown, Pa
Nice find Kevin. Will buy a set just to have on hand, cheap enough for a possible fix for a hundred year problem, header seal. Their catalog is extensive.
http://catalog.remflex.com/

Gordon, no experience with other than the Felpro 1404. The 1404 set I used to break the headers in before the black Jethot a decade ago are still under the bench in case they need to be called up in an emergency.

My AFR 210 heads are old and can't verify the exhaust port opening size, 76cc, angle plug, also a raised port, memory says .100". They recommend a 1405, I run the smaller 1404 to suit my flange rather than port. Running, believe it or not, a Hooker 2050 emissions header/crossover pipe, cat back. They are a 1 3/4" shorty but quality I consider excellent. They are a major reason for the seal at the flanges. I did draw file the flanges before install to remove high spots. The rigidity created between the left and right headers when connected by a HD crossover pipe prevents anything from moving. Long tubes have 8' of pipe hanging off the collector, it stresses the header flange, also how you hang an exhaust system plays a big part.

I look at gasket overlap in the port exit as a problem but it's a necessary compromise most times. As Kevin said the problem is pretty much every out of the box header flange is not a good port match for whatever head you run. You pay well over a grand for custom headers to have that luxury.

You could also trim gaskets to fit to minimize overlap/ maintain seal. I use a hand nibbler. On those same AFR 210 intake gaskets are a PITA, they said to use 1206, way to big for the head intake ports and way to big for most street intake manifold openings. With a nibbler the top black area of the Felpro 1205 is removed to raise the gasket opening to the blue seal. The gasket now matches the port. The intake was then port matched to the modified 1205. The intake manifold sealing area at the top of the port was compromised after that port matching. Eventually TIGed 3/16" alum filler to add sealing area above all 8 areas. And had the intake faces milled to better match the head angles.
Again same thing, adapting and making the best of a collection of aftermarket engine parts.

If running an O2 sensor for any reason upstream leaks will effect the O2 output. Header seal leaks should be zero.
Bob

Last edited by mmc427ss; 01/11/21 07:25 AM.
#1069158 - 01/11/21 12:17 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
So here is kind of a comparison with the stock vs. tall stock valve cover. I should be able to run my stock covers but I will have to wait till ive decided on all the valve train. As of now the stock valve covers seem to clear everything. The trick flows have a pretty good sized lip.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I only ran my headers probably 200 miles and I could hear a slight tick. When pulling them off this is what I found.

[Linked Image]

I made a 3 bolt cover plate with a small psi gauge and a schrader valve. Before I put the rockers on while all the valves were closed I was going bolt the headers to the heads, pressurize a small amount and see if I could find a way to fix where it was leaking. Might not even worry about it now and just order the remflex gasket. They make one for my headers oval with raised weld. Good find Kevin, they also have all 5 star reviews. Thanks for bringing this subject up Gordon, at some point I was going to get there but now I can order them and already have them waiting.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rfl-2032


Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/11/21 12:21 PM.
#1069161 - 01/11/21 04:06 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
AkronAero Online content
10+ Year
AkronAero  Online Content
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
Akron OH
Where else can one find this level of free expertise and sharing? The Remflex is 0.125" as compared to others at 0.06" (1/8" vs 1/16"), and like Brent I will buy/install this later this month. Brent - keep us posted on the fitment. Bob - thanks for the link too. Kevin - thanks for digging in as you always do! Wish you were 900 miles closer.
Gordon

#1069168 - 01/11/21 07:35 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
Pottstown, Pa
They say the Remflex crush to 1/16" when installed which is a plus. Also they sell gasket sheet stock to make your own gaskets. There have been times when I had to find a comparable product for other high temp uses.

Brent with the raised lip on the new heads and those very tall valve covers stock compressor location will be a problem. One nice thing about the raised lips is puddling of oil next to the rails will help get oil away from the cover gaskets in the back corners. Most would be surprised at how much oil is laying in the heads when the engine is running.The large OD valve springs, 1.550", that came on my AFR heads really narrows down that channel for drain back, almost dams it x 8.

Are the headers off the car right now? I would straight edge the flanges and knock any high spots off the flanges.
Bob

#1069173 - 01/12/21 01:12 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
Member
88ssBrent  Online Content
Member

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
Got the new tfs rockers arms in to try. Im going to go out on a limb and say they were made at the same factory. Dead same measurements so that did not solve anything. They will be headed back to summit.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Waiting to see what Trick Flow says. They wanted more pictures and videos so we shall see. I did get the lapping compound when I ordered the rockers. Checked a few more areas. The pushrod tip would not even go in the cup. This is cylinder #1.

[Linked Image]

Cylinder #7

[Linked Image]

#1069176 - 01/12/21 03:46 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,391
Pottstown, Pa
Gettin kinda frustrating ain't it. Hang in there, eventually it all works out.

And as we know in today's marketplace you need to check and double check parts, take nothing for granted.
Bob

Page 2 of 20 1 2 3 4 19 20

Random Images
500/thumbs/Monte2_mid.JPG
by woolf
500/thumbs/PC260345.jpg
by 02intimidator
500/thumbs/wk.jpg
by go3and8
1044/thumbs/350_1.jpg
by 85 rider
500/thumbs/downsized_0324121833a.jpg
by slick-licks85
Help MonteCarloSS.com


Recent Contributors
86BlackSuperSport
dns87ss
Authorized Vendors
Tell them you saw it
on MonteCarloSS.com!


CustomMonteSSParts.com
Dixie Monte Carlo Depot
GSI Interiors
HRpartsNstuff
Mikes Montes
Savitske Classic & Custom
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0