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#1069059 - 01/03/21 03:40 PM 88ssBrent's Build!  
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UPDATE: 6/7/21: TKX 5 speed discussion and install starts on page 12.

UPDATE: 9/21/21: 396 sbc discussion and build start on page 19.



So I've started my 305 build. I know it always sparks an interesting conversation when someone ask the question about trying to "get more out of my 305".

To get it out of the way why I'm building the 305, my engine has 18,000 miles on it and runs top notch as far as a stock l69. I wanted to venture into "learning my way around a sbc" and get a little more pep. Yes I know I could get more out of a 350 or ls engines are dropping out of the sky everywhere for $1000 but for me that was not happening.

I didnt want to take the chance on a junkyard pulled ls and if you really put it to pen and paper a ls swap is not cheap if done right. I looked around and any decent engines with trans were around $2500 to $4000, then you look into other aspects to get it swapped and you quickly get up in price. A stock 5.3 is listed at 320/340, hp/tq. It also did not align with my future goal.

On to the 350, yes I could get more out of a 350. Once again I did not want to go with a junkyard pull because of risk and unknowns. I could buy an engine, tear it down take it to machine shop then build and once again if done right Im sitting at $4000 or $5000 dollars and its not my ultimate goal.

My long term goal is a 400 sbc dart block, with a non ccc quadrajet on top. I really like the sbc/carb combo. Before I get there I want to upgrade my trans and rear end. So to hold me over and get my feet wet im building the 305. In the end I should be around 315 to 345 h.p. and I'm starting with a known dependable short block. Im doing all the work myself and with parts I should be around $2000 to $2500. At the end of the day its what I wanted to do and what made the most sense to me. It may not be what others would choose to do.

I figured i would start this thread so others could see if this might be an option for them. I also have full intentions of putting the car on a dyno when done to get a rwhp number.

Leading up to this i put a new exhaust on the car and this is the thread.

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1068550#Post1068550

I also went through the carb just to learn more about it and make sure everything is in good shape. I took advice from Badss and Mmc427ss and both helped me. I also talk to Cliff and ordered all my parts from him. Here is the thread

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1067863#Post1067863




Last edited by 88ssBrent; 09/21/21 04:09 PM.
#1069060 - 01/03/21 04:05 PM Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Here is a list of the main parts list. Badss has helped me spec every part of this build and ran through his computer dyno software. Im doing the work but through the forum, email, and phone calls he has helped me every step of the way. All his help is greatly appreciated.

Trick flow 23 175 heads
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30310005

Comp cam 12-249-4
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-12-249-4

Lifters
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-858-16

Scorpion 1.6 roller rockers
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1038

Arp head bolts
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-3601

Mahle head gaskets
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mah-5746

Cloyes timing chain set
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-c-3023x

Intake gasket
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30400921

3/10/21 update: if you keeping reading this thread you will see that I run in to some issues with parts availability and some manufacturing issues that get sorted out, Its a doozy. Here is the amended parts list. You would have no issues with the above setup. I end up being accidently sent roller lifter heads and my block was roller lifter ready so I went with it other than waiting longer.


Trick Flow 23 175 heads
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30310007

Cam
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-08-465-8

Timing Chain Set
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1145

Pushrod tool
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-90008

Fuel pump pushrod
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4607

Cam retainer
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-10088128

Roller lifter kit
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12371042

Scorpion 1.6 roller rockers
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1038

Arp head bolts
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-3601

Mahle head gaskets
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mah-5746

Intake gasket
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30400921



UPDATE: 6/7/21: TKX 5 speed discussion starts on page 12.









Last edited by 88ssBrent; 06/07/21 02:14 PM.
#1069061 - 01/03/21 05:01 PM Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Engine before pulling
[Linked Image]

Engine pulled and on the stand
[Linked Image]

At this point I plugged all the holes and washed, scrubbed and degreased. Then I went over block block with wire wheel and washed and scrubbed with dawn detergent. Tore the engine down,taped everything up, final wipe with acetone and sprayed low gloss black.

[Linked Image]

Also sprayed oil pan and timing chain cover after prep

[Linked Image]

This is what all the cylinders looked like.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/03/21 05:11 PM.
#1069062 - 01/03/21 07:30 PM Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Dang, that is a clean car! It's going to be even cleaner once you get it tall back together.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1069065 - 01/04/21 12:36 AM Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Dang, that is a clean car! It's going to be even cleaner once you get it tall back together.


Thank you Lance. The original owner took very good care of it. I hope its a little cleaner and hopefully I can get it all back together without any problems and it can be a little faster. I know its not going to be much but it should have a little more pep.

#1069067 - 01/04/21 01:21 PM Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Ready to install everything

Cam specs

112 lobe spread +4
249 int. / 260 exh.
206 int. / 212 exh.
.463 int. / 474 exh. with 1.6 ratio


[Linked Image]

Everything installed and ready to degree the cam. I know its overkill and probably not needed but I wanted to degree the cam. Ive read tons about cams but im the type that really doesn't understand things until I see it function how it works in person. I kept checking ebay and got the summit degree kit for $65 used. Also as I go along I have purchased some specialty tools as I plan on sticking with the sbc platform. I already had the indicator on the machined block so I made it work for checking TDC. I also purchased the comp crank socket and im glad I did i think it was $30. To degree the cam I used 2 solid lifters.

Luckily, Kevin (Badss) knew i was a novice and warned me that the second lifter back from front of block on #1 cylinder was the intake. Evidently its a common mistake. The one thing he couldn't teach me is how to read a degree wheel. Doh!

[Linked Image]

So my intake centerline was supposed to be 108.0°. After setup and getting TDC i kept coming up with a icl of around 113.5°. I reset everything and did it again by Comps directions. Same thing 113.5°. Just to prove what a moron i am I did it 2 or 3 more times and came up with the same thing. Sent Kevin a email and quit for the night.

Next day I set everything up and Kevin sent me some suggestions of things to check. Same thing, same 113.5°. I set down on a stool about 6 feet away and was staring at the wheel and realized I was reading one side of the wheel wrong going in the direction of the engine (clockwise). I went to full lift set my indicator at .000, went down one side of the lobe .050 I came up with 152°, back to full lift back down the other side of lobe .050 came up with 64.5°. 152+64.5= 216.5 ÷2=108.25°. The whole time I was reading the 64.5 as 75.5 on the wheel.

As a electrical troublshooter i should know better to step back and look from a distance when things aren't working out. When I train people I preach it. Well I didnt practice it and just kept digging my self in a hole for a little while. I felt like a idiot. But easy mistake being first time and being afixed on 1 thing. I hate to tell this but maybe it will help someone.

[Linked Image]

I checked the exhaust centerline and it was dead on 116°




Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/04/21 01:37 PM.
#1069069 - 01/04/21 04:44 PM Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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As a senior in my golden years I've learned when something like that happens I do three 360 spins, sit down in a chair, turn on the golf channel and forget about the
problem until my mind clears. So been there, done that.
I always wondered about whether there really is a Bizarro World, where up is down and down is up.

It's been a couple years since degreeing the last cam. A friend with a 440 68 Dodge Dart just got another Isky cam, looks like I'll be degreeing that cam for him.
Oh boy.

Seems like a lot of work to freshen a 305 but I get it. Another friend with an 84SS did the same as you are doing, his car has about 27K on it. A set of Trick Flow heads, nor sure which cam, and pulled the CCC and installed a Sean Murphy carb, which we had problems with, and an old school HEI. My old Edel TES headers I sold him years ago are also installed on the car. The older SS had a TH 350, he found a used 2500 stall converter and installed that. Unfortunately with the Rona only one trip to the track to see how it ran was a disappointment, an ignition miss plagued him.

Many years ago the T56, 8 1/2" rear went in behind the original 305 in my 86. Only the TES headers with a very good 2 1/2" cat-back and some tweaking on the Qjet, all CCC still intact and the car went 14.9 @ 93.5 granny shifting my way down the 1/4. Not fast but a large increase from stock. So there is potential from the 305.

And getting your hand dirty on a good old SBC rebuild is not a bad thing, it's an education for any dinosaur oil fueled engine.

Keep pluggin away on it.

You also know you are lucky. To have a 88 SS that is in such a pristine condition to play with is a HUGE plus.
Bob

#1069070 - 01/04/21 05:53 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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So this is where I'm at now, I felt the lobes were sitting to far off center in the lifter bore.

[Linked Image]

The cam gear is also making slight contact with the block.

[Linked Image]

I was suspicious that the crank gear was sitting to far back and pulling the cam to far back. After some digging its hard to find a double roller timing set thats specified for the 87-up roller lifter block with a flat tappet cam in it. On the roller block you have the 2 holes for the cam plate at 3 and 9 position, you also have the three oil galley plugs that are machined flush with outer cam journal face.

[Linked Image]

A non roller lifter block the 3 plugs set back from the machined cam journal face.

[Linked Image]

It looks like this is the only difference and the plugs might need to be clearanced. Does anyone know if anything else is dimensionally different?

Also I contacted comp through email and they said cam lobe is setting in the correct area of lifter bore and that it should be slightly offset and by the picture it should be fine.

#1069071 - 01/04/21 07:31 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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I'm guessing here:
The old sprocket and chain were a single row, not double.
The two threaded holes at the cam bearing are for later engines with a roller cam that used a thrust plate bolted to those two holes. The later roller cams had a step ground into the front of the cam to accept that thrust plate. That thrust plate limited the forward movement of the cam. In 87 they started to incorporate those two bolt holes into the blocks even though they still used a flat tappet cam. The later blocks that had a roller cam and the cam thrust plate also used a plastic timing cover.

The gear on the crank gets installed against the step in the crank, the harmonic damper when installed touches the crank gear and prevents it from moving forward.

My thinking is you need to clearance, as in grind away excess block to insure the gear doesn't rub the block. The back face of the cam gear limits travel rearward of the cam as it will rub the block around the front cam bearing. Cam shafts move forward when rotating when the engine is running. Typically without a thrust plate a cam button is used along with a metal timing cover. Look at the inside of you 305 timing cover for wear fron the cam rotation.

Kevin will be able to shed a lot more light on your problem. Turn the TV on to the golf channel and wait for his reply.
But I think to use the double tooth chain you need to get the grinder out.
Bob

#1069072 - 01/04/21 07:47 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Also ask Kevin about drill a very small hole in one of the galley plugs to spray oil directly onto the cam sprocket/chain. That was a mod we did to the last roller cammed ZZ4 I built.
Think it was a .030" hole, been 15 years since that build.
Bob

#1069079 - 01/05/21 02:25 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
As a senior in my golden years I've learned when something like that happens I do three 360 spins, sit down in a chair, turn on the golf channel and forget about the
problem until my mind clears. So been there, done that.
I always wondered about whether there really is a Bizarro World, where up is down and down is up.

It's been a couple years since degreeing the last cam. A friend with a 440 68 Dodge Dart just got another Isky cam, looks like I'll be degreeing that cam for him.
Oh boy.

Seems like a lot of work to freshen a 305 but I get it. Another friend with an 84SS did the same as you are doing, his car has about 27K on it. A set of Trick Flow heads, nor sure which cam, and pulled the CCC and installed a Sean Murphy carb, which we had problems with, and an old school HEI. My old Edel TES headers I sold him years ago are also installed on the car. The older SS had a TH 350, he found a used 2500 stall converter and installed that. Unfortunately with the Rona only one trip to the track to see how it ran was a disappointment, an ignition miss plagued him.

Many years ago the T56, 8 1/2" rear went in behind the original 305 in my 86. Only the TES headers with a very good 2 1/2" cat-back and some tweaking on the Qjet, all CCC still intact and the car went 14.9 @ 93.5 granny shifting my way down the 1/4. Not fast but a large increase from stock. So there is potential from the 305.

And getting your hand dirty on a good old SBC rebuild is not a bad thing, it's an education for any dinosaur oil fueled engine.

Keep pluggin away on it.

You also know you are lucky. To have a 88 SS that is in such a pristine condition to play with is a HUGE plus.
Bob


Bob,

Even though it was a little frustrating it was still enjoyable in a odd way, any time im learning something new its a good thing. I get why people don't get the 305 thing. Not for everyone but It was what I wanted to do. I think with a 18,000 mile short block its a good little amount of power for the money.

It would be interesting to see what your buddy's car would run. Out of curiosity what was the issue with the s.m.i. carb? I thought about going with a non ccc carb and distributor but thats going to far at the moment. It would clean some things up though.

Also I feel very lucky with the car I have . It is my 16 year old me dream car. I had a rough 87 ls monte when I was 16.

#1069080 - 01/05/21 05:47 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Yes you hate to throw away a low mileage shortblock these days. They are extremely hard to find, it's over 30 years old now. It's even hard to find a good Vortec 350 at the yard today.
As far as a SBC build goes my Dart 427 build will soon be 13 years old. Back then is when the LS started to take off as the choice for a hot rod. The LS7 was introduced as a wet sump crate about that time. Just couldn't hide the high price tag for that crate engine from my wife, plus the fuel system mods,dry sump system, no real good fitting headers available, clutches, no real easy programming available either. Cams, heads, and most everything for even an LS1 build were much higher priced parts compared to the old Gen1 SBC parts back then.

But as we know even the LS is being squeezed by the cars than run on a big battery. We will see the SBC parts being harder to have dropped at your door. My friend with the 440 decided to buy a new dist drive shaft for his cam install. He found they are drying up, he bought three cause they were clearanced, cheap.
I have no problem with someone building a SBC, still a good engine design.
The alum block of the LS is one of the big advantages of the install. There are a couple other things that make it an all around better engine, seals, taller deck height, better out of the box heads flow, not to mention FI with a smart PCM. All that comes at a cost.

You mentioned a 400 SBC Dart block build earlier. Looking at the that build and a comparable LS build for that 1.2-1.3 hp per CI I think today the LS would be the cheaper. Although as we know it's hard to build a really potent LS, 500 hp that makes a LOT of torque down low for cheap. Stock high performance LS engines from the junkers are hard to find for cheap, then there's all the misc install parts.
The Dart 400 SBC starts off expensive for just a shortblock, could be +4K with good parts, that's what I paid 15 years ago for that shortblock, with the Little M block. You can spend a pretty penny making 500 with a SBC, but so goes an LS if I was to build it.

As you go through this upgrade to the L69 you can get a good idea of what it takes to upgrade to an LS. Just about everything under the hood goes away by the time you've got an LS running. I would like having A/C, cruise control, and a few more details on an LS swap. Going the large cubic inch SBC upgrade, everything you reuse, even the water pump.

The other night I saw a Leno's Garage and he had the remake of the 63 Corvette Grand Sport on a U-Tube video. Company called Superformance produces them built to order, along with several other "replica" Ford race cars, Cobra, F40. Did i mention the engines in the new GS were Lingenfelter, one a new LT4 with the Lingenfelter touch. A video worth watching if you have nothing to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjFcrhQNHd8
Both my son and I have replicas of the 63 GS Corvette, mine about 2" long, his about 6". As close to real we will ever get.

Enjoy the engine process, ask anytime, opinions are always worth hearing.
Bob

Oh, the Qjet problem on the 84SS, nozzle drip, high fuel pressure. Played with float level height, changed needle and seat, changed fuel pump, ultimately a regulator installed at the carb to drop pressure on the seat. We then get back to the quality thing, all needles and seats out of the bag are questionable.

Keep plugin away at the 305, Spring is just 74 days away.
Bob

#1069081 - 01/05/21 01:32 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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A lot of work just for 30 seconds of grinding. Problem of resistance solved. I ended up not drilling oil galley plug. I think for my purpose it will be fine after doing some research and talking it over with Kevin.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

#1069082 - 01/05/21 04:01 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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I thought that would be the fix for clearance. Luckily you could do that while on the stand, some don't have that luxury.
Bob

#1069083 - 01/05/21 04:21 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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The builder that put my engine together this last time caught the exact same issue with my block and corrected it the same way. The previous builder did not catch it and rub marks resulted...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1069084 - 01/05/21 04:24 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
I thought that would be the fix for clearance. Luckily you could do that while on the stand, some don't have that luxury.
Bob



That is very true, definitely a luxury with the engine out. I originally started this project that I was going to do the work with engine left in the car. Glad I didn't. Im only 40 but 6' tall and was not looking forward to being leaned over the fenders. After looking at the project I wanted to clean some things up and only a few more moves and I could have everything out. Im glad I did.

#1069085 - 01/05/21 04:35 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
The builder that put my engine together this last time caught the exact same issue with my block and corrected it the same way. The previous builder did not catch it and rub marks resulted...


When I put the cam, gears, and timing chain together I rotated the engine and felt slight resistance but just figured it was drag from all the engine components. During disassembly I didnt really turn the engine over so no comparison to go off of. While I was going through my self inflicted problems on degreeing the cam and looking at how the lobes were centered in the lifter bores I slightly pulled the cam a little out while it was attached to everything. Went back to rotate and it was free about 2 or 3 rotations then had slight resistance again. Thats how I found out.

#1069086 - 01/05/21 04:45 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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This is a email from cloyes concerning the timing chain. I think it would help for them to put this info in the paperwork provided with their product or with application info on the website. But it is what it is.

Brent

No it should fit as long as you are using a steel type cover and a factory flat tappet style cam. If you are using a roller cam and roller lifters you will need a different set and a cam retainer or cam button. Some of the newer blocks you might have to clearance the oil gallies slightly to give the chain pins clearance but it should not take much.

 Thanks,
____________________________

JOSH MAHFOUZ

Technical Support


Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/05/21 04:48 PM.
#1069087 - 01/05/21 06:55 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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I really wouldn't want to change a cam in a Monte when the engine is in the car, but it's been done hundreds of times I'm sure. Rad and condenser would need to be removed and leaning over that pretty front end on your car would not be pleasant. My back aches just from thinking about that.

Glad you got some feedback from Cloyes. As noted that clearance issue should have been noted when they sell it.
I have the Cloyes hex-adjust timing set and a Cloyes timing cover. The timing cover had to milled and modified in several places to work with the Dart block. wasn't a bolt on!
Also I had to make a dist/oil pump shaft for the Dart block, a BBC shaft had to be shortened to my spec in order to have the proper endplay in the drive. These are just some of the many issues you have when you do aftermarket parts. Dart made no mention of that in there block instructions.
Bob

#1069089 - 01/06/21 02:01 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Finally received my speedhut air/fuel ratio gauge. I ordered it during Black Friday 20% off sale. I ordered the gauge blank off another site for $4. Looks nothing like the picture showed but its better than a open hole until I need another gauge.

[Linked Image]

#1069093 - 01/06/21 06:18 AM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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Huh. That's the first time I've seen that coin tray/gauge pod. Looks like a nice part. Being a carbed car a vac gauge on the right would fill that void. Cars with 'puters don't need a vac gauge.
Bob

#1069099 - 01/06/21 02:02 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
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#1069100 - 01/06/21 03:05 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Huh. That's the first time I've seen that coin tray/gauge pod. Looks like a nice part. Being a carbed car a vac gauge on the right would fill that void. Cars with 'puters don't need a vac gauge.
Bob




Yes, I looked at the vac gauge $168 from speedhut . Definitely will more than likely get it, just need to wait a little while to slide it by the wife. Haha. I ordered gauge pod through mikes montes. Seems like a quality piece, texture matches perfect.

https://www.mikesmontes.com/Console-Front-Gauge-Pod_p_2649.html

Also ordered this when I ordered the gauge pod. I will see how good it works. I hate putting fuel in the car with the license plate the way it is.

https://www.mikesmontes.com/Flip-Down-Stay-Down-Modification-Kit-for-Rear-Plate_p_1247.html

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/06/21 03:06 PM.
#1069101 - 01/06/21 03:26 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: 88ssBrent]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
AkronAero Online content
10+ Year
AkronAero  Online Content
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 895
Akron OH
Brent - Love your project and appreciate your discussion and documentation. Good info! Kevin is a Godsend! Working on my cam swap now with him moving the 383 from flat tappet to roller cam. I have 9 SpeedHut gauges, with wideband, vac and trans temp mounted under the dash in center, a few inches above yours. I think the vac is a good investment (assuming you don't have an issue with financial infidelity with your wife... hahaha). Keep posting.
Gordon.

#1069102 - 01/06/21 05:22 PM Re: 88ssBrent's Build [Re: AkronAero]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
88ssBrent Online content
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88ssBrent  Online Content
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 501
Friendsville
Originally Posted by AkronAero
Brent - Love your project and appreciate your discussion and documentation. Good info! Kevin is a Godsend! Working on my cam swap now with him moving the 383 from flat tappet to roller cam. I have 9 SpeedHut gauges, with wideband, vac and trans temp mounted under the dash in center, a few inches above yours. I think the vac is a good investment (assuming you don't have an issue with financial infidelity with your wife... hahaha). Keep posting.
Gordon.


Gordon, I enjoy the forum and I have used it alot. Thankful for the many people that have posted through the years and documented their adventures, so I try to do my small part in giving back. If it helps atleast one person its worth it. Kevin is worth his weight in gold. Bob and Lance have also both steered me in the right direction when discussing issues.

I have to give my wife credit, out of all the projects I've tackled over time she has never really said much about the money part, but I like to think I do a pretty good job at pulling the reigns back when I get close to that line. It always helps if I stay on top of the projects she wants to do around the house. Now, I think you and Bob have talked me into that nice vacuum gauge. Lol. It will be alot easier installing 2 gauges at once instead of waiting to get the other and remove everything to install. Just like that I was able to reason with myself why I need it.

Last edited by 88ssBrent; 01/06/21 05:23 PM.
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