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#1068096 - 09/22/20 05:06 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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So, I've watched all the videos back, multiple times and spent some time talking with others about the course and times and watching other videos. I think I could have got a bit more out of the car with better line choice (keeping the course shorter) and maybe been more aggressive on the start. That said, I still think it did pretty dang well.

The new engine and more importantly the tune fixes REALLY helped increase the mid range power as well as making it pretty manageable to put down. Other than aerating the power steering fluid on my first run, the powertrain performed flawlessly all day.

The only suspension adjustment I made to the car during the run group was to add one round of rear brake bias and then back a half round back out after 1 run. It is amazing to me how just one turn on the knob can change it enough to lock the back brakes up first before the fronts.

Here is my fastest run of the day with the Solostorm data overlayed.

https://youtu.be/ya588y1aWio

The new version of Solostorm took some getting used to but in the end is MUCH easier to deal with than the older version I was running. I just need to get more of our Region's drivers to start using it so we can compare to each other's runs and all get better. It's an invaluable tool...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068110 - 09/23/20 05:12 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Good to see you out beating on the car again. As Travis said no place to run the car right now, Rona shutdowns here still got everyone scared off. Especially with the dictator that runs the state government in Pa.
Keep the videos coming. When I first looked at the results I only saw 21 cars and thought lucky you. Later saw not 21 but 94 cars and wow, a lot of Cam T cars. That says something about your area and what gets raced there.

I follow all your changes to the FI so I can learn, be aware, of how to understand the tuning of that system cause i know as time goes by I will be party to someone else doing that swap. Just don't think it will be me for a long time yet.

Time for new tires, at KOTM Aaron said he made the mistake of running there without a new set of tires.

Have had no time to play with the car, wife in the hospital the past week changes the priorities.
Bob

#1068112 - 09/23/20 06:09 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Hope the wife gets better soon Bob... That's a pretty important priority.

Aaron put new tires on before NE Musclecar last weekend and was pleasantly surprised at how well it did. #tiresmatter

I'm good for a little while yet, one more local in Oct then GGs hopefully in Nov then I'll be ready.

12 CAM T cars, 3 CAM C and 3 CAM S out of 94 total. It's growing for sure...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068238 - 10/09/20 10:38 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Strangely, I didn't take one picture while performing my latest upgrade. Not one...

So text will have to do to keep you all in the loop. A friend graciously offered to loan me a third member with a Gleason Torsen differential and 3.89:1 gears so we swapped it in this morning.

My Detroit Locker had been acting a bit funny ever since the track day when I hurt the engine and I didn't quite trust it anymore. It started shuddering on decel and making all sorts of weird clanks and clunks and had a "dartiness" to it on the street. Plus, I have been wanting to ditch it ever since the new big sway bar install up front as it just isn't needed any longer and it detriments were outweighing it's good traits.

I was anxious to see how much metal was in the bottom of the case and what else we may find and honestly, it all looked and felt pretty normal. Gears look decent still as well. IF there is anything wrong with it, it's inside the locker itself.

Driving the Gleason is pleasurable for sure. It basically acts and feels like an open differential until you stab the gas enough to spin a tire which it then instantly and smoothly engages as a locker and spins both equally. No strange dartiness, no clunks or clangs, just smooth operating. The 3.89 gear is great for street driving. Haven't had it out on the highway yet but I expect it to shine there as well.

For SCCA\second gear courses I also expect it to shine. Looking at drive ratio calculators it appears that it'll top out at 71 mph at 6500 RPM which is perfect.

First gear Good Guys courses it hurts a bit more though. 6500 with the 3.50 was 51 mph while 6500 with the 3.89 will be 47 mph. 7,000 RPM gets it back up to around 51 mph though. I may be just a bit limited on top speed in first gear but it should pull harder getting there and the Torsen should make getting around the tight turns better as well so who knows...

We'll race it next Saturday with SCCA, that will be it's first real test. Personally...I can't wait to feel how it acts in the first high speed sweeper. I know I'm gonna LOVE it. I'm pretty sure I'll dig the lower gear for pulling out of corners as well.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068240 - 10/10/20 05:35 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Torsen, Truetrac, Quaife all pretty much the same diff, helical gears, a better overall choice I think for a car that sees a lot of street time. Compared to the Eaton posi that was in the 8 1/2 before the Truetrac is much more forgiving, especially in the wet, it makes no noise, reacts seamlessly to traction bias, and when called upon lays down two equal length stripes, every time. Just acts like an open until called upon to perform. I'm sure after the next event you'll have it figured out.

Like the other helical gear diffs I would think the Torsen has the same gear oil requirement. Truetrac and Quaife say use just a straight GL5, not synthetic, no friction modifiers. I run just a straight Wolf's Head 80-90 GL5, it's only gears spinning around in there. I think Truetrac says friction modifiers can effect the torque bias. Been 4 years since the Truetrac install, hard to remember all the details.

Anytime you increase gear ratio the car become more fun, easier to drive. Mine is a ridiculousness 1st gear with a 2.97 x 4.11 =12.2. The wide ratio T56, 4.11 rear lots of low end torque is a pleasure around town. Kind like driving you lawn tractor to the grocery store. Lots of gear ratio most times is a good thing. For me the 4.11 went in the car to increase trap rpm at the end of the 1/4 mile running a 27" tire. Drag racing needs are pretty much over now, RST clutch put an end to slicks.

On your last outing I was intently watching the tach rpm and where on the course you were. I kept thinking I'm glad that's not my engine and gearing, I'd be in 3rd gear. I think it was Hershey autox, Strano did the setup and it was fast, I was needing 3rd gear at some of the really fast sections. 55 mph in 2nd is 6050.

So picking a ring and pinion ratio that fits all applications is a compromise.
You know, nice thing about a 9" is you can have different pumpkins to drop in as the track setup dictates. What, maybe 1/2 hour to change it out.
Bob

#1068241 - 10/10/20 01:03 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Swapping my diff out is a bit more complicated because of the brake setup but we were still all done in a little less than 2 hours.

If I wasn't concerned about cleaning the axle tubes out and didn't pull axles all the way out, it would take a lot less time for sure. This time we were switching from Redline oil to Lucas so I wanted to do a thorough cleaning.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068242 - 10/10/20 06:54 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Man does my car like the 3.89 gear on the street! I've had a 3.50 gear in it forever, cant believe the difference that little bit of a lower gear makes. The WOT shifts land right in the powerband and the car just keeps on pulling hard. Still loving the Gleason as well.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068249 - 10/11/20 05:05 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Is that Jackie Gleason, funny guy?

Good read on the Gleason diff.
https://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx/PS84Gleason.html

Yep, a 10% increase in rear ratios is noticeable. And can make the car much better. Have done it a few times to my drivers, a 3.73 to 4.88 in my 302 62 Nova way back 50 years ago when I was a kid, zero torque down low. My new 72 Chevelle SS went from a 2.73 to 3.31, the 85 Chevy G van I changed form a 2.73 10 bolt to a 3.31 12 bolt and picked up many MPG around town. The 86 is now a 4.11, a 10% over the 3.73. My AWD Astro is factory 3.73 on both axles, didn't touch that one. Even my wife's 02 SS Monte has a lower 3.29 rear. So can say I like cars with more gear. But thank goodness we now have OD transmissions.

That poor little 302 with 4.88 was spinning 4600 rpm at 70 mph out on the fast line highway way back when, the 86 with 4.11 and .62 OD is spinning 1/2 that at 70, 2300.

Oh, I later changed out that Nova 4.88 to a 5.38, needed to spin it higher through the traps.
Bob

#1068253 - 10/12/20 01:03 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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All this talk about gearing... I made a great comparison calculator with virtually every transmission under the sun a while back...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...RNuQztGBEyhCfmM_81wXA/edit#gid=814700034

Lance now you're going to find out if it lifts a tire. My guess is you're not going to like corner exit. You will however LOVE corner entry. The best thing about a torsen is the lack of understeer on corner entry.

However my favorite thing about Torsen diffs is that you can absolutely hammer them in a straight line in the wet or dry and the car tracks straight.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1068254 - 10/12/20 04:28 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Travis, that spreadsheet is really trick. Thanks for sharing!!

So if I do like corner exit and don't have any issues spinning the inside rear tire...will you finally believe me that my front sway bar fixed the lifting inside rear tire issue? laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068255 - 10/12/20 04:30 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Speed At Engine RPM 6500 3.50 vs 3.89

1st Gear Speed 53 48
2nd Gear Speed 79 71
3rd Gear Speed 108 98
4th Gear Speed 141 127
5th Gear Speed 190 171
6th Gear Speed 282 254


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068256 - 10/12/20 07:04 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Speed At Engine RPM 6500 3.50 vs 3.89

1st Gear Speed 53 48
2nd Gear Speed 79 71
3rd Gear Speed 108 98
4th Gear Speed 141 127
5th Gear Speed 190 171
6th Gear Speed 282 254


I know that new motor is supposed to be stout, but isn't 254mph a little optimistic? lmao

I've found that I want to be able to hit 70mph in 2nd for autocross. That's the magic number for me.

My guess is the 3.89's make the highway passing speed a bit better too. That's one of the things I don't love about the AR5 and the 3.15 rear.


Here's what the it looked like in my car with the AR5, first and second are so short, but perfect for autocross, on the road courses around here, id likely never get out of 3rd anyway, same with the dragstrip.

Speed At Engine RPM 6500 3.73 vs 3.15
1st Gear Speed 36 42
2nd Gear Speed 59 70
3rd Gear Speed 97 115
4th Gear Speed 133 158
5th Gear Speed 183 216


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1068258 - 10/12/20 09:18 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Lance would need a little more aero to hit that 254, ok, a lot.

20 years ago when I was trying to figure out what stick shift trans to put in the Monte I did a speedsheet on all the available stick and auto trans options then, looking at % of drop between gears, 1st gear ratio and OD ratios. No Magnums, no TKO 500 or TKO 600 made at that time. So the speedsheet doesn't show those options. At that time the new trans was going in behind the old 305 so that was one of the factors to consider, more grunt in 1st gear. I chose the wide ratio aftermarket T56 at that time. 2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.0 , 80, .62. The 2.97 1st and the higher 5th and 6th OD was the primary reason. The C5 ZO6 Corvette also came with the same 1-5 ratios but had a .56 6th gear. With the new engine having a ton of torque and now the car being a 4.11 x 2.97 1st is 12.2 ratio.. Sure makes it easy to pull out in 1st gear. At an autox I was starting out in 2nd gear, using 3rd in really fast sections.

Travis, check your % drop between gears on Lances T56. I get 1-2= 33%, 27%, 23%, 26%, and 5-6 is 33%. trying not to be critical.
Bob

#1068260 - 10/13/20 02:11 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Lance would need a little more aero to hit that 254, ok, a lot.

20 years ago when I was trying to figure out what stick shift trans to put in the Monte I did a speedsheet on all the available stick and auto trans options then, looking at % of drop between gears, 1st gear ratio and OD ratios. No Magnums, no TKO 500 or TKO 600 made at that time. So the speedsheet doesn't show those options. At that time the new trans was going in behind the old 305 so that was one of the factors to consider, more grunt in 1st gear. I chose the wide ratio aftermarket T56 at that time. 2.97, 2.07, 1.43, 1.0 , 80, .62. The 2.97 1st and the higher 5th and 6th OD was the primary reason. The C5 ZO6 Corvette also came with the same 1-5 ratios but had a .56 6th gear. With the new engine having a ton of torque and now the car being a 4.11 x 2.97 1st is 12.2 ratio.. Sure makes it easy to pull out in 1st gear. At an autox I was starting out in 2nd gear, using 3rd in really fast sections.

Travis, check your % drop between gears on Lances T56. I get 1-2= 33%, 27%, 23%, 26%, and 5-6 is 33%. trying not to be critical.
Bob


I show 33,27,23,26,32. the 32% is 32.432. I ran the numbers through the Wallace racing calculator and got the same value.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1068261 - 10/13/20 03:53 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: Travis Jones]  
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Originally Posted by Travis Jones
Originally Posted by SSLance
Speed At Engine RPM 6500 3.50 vs 3.89

1st Gear Speed 53 48
2nd Gear Speed 79 71
3rd Gear Speed 108 98
4th Gear Speed 141 127
5th Gear Speed 190 171
6th Gear Speed 282 254


I know that new motor is supposed to be stout, but isn't 254mph a little optimistic? lmao

I've found that I want to be able to hit 70mph in 2nd for autocross. That's the magic number for me.



I thought it was more realistic than 282 mph!! laugh

The fastest I've ever seen on an autocross course was 72 mph through the lights at a National event in Lincoln. A ton of cars were shifting to 3rd in that spot that year. Generally speaking, 65 mph is considered WAY fast for autocross.

I'm more concerned about the 48 mph in first and Good Guys style courses. Other than that, I really like the 3.89s.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068268 - 10/14/20 11:54 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Travis, I'm sorry, I realized i was looking at the % drop for the AR5 and not the T56 column, my bad.
Bob

#1068294 - 10/17/20 08:40 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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https://youtu.be/GqCZkhnPGxM

http://realtime.azsolo.com/

Love the Gleason. I'd watch videos of real good drivers and I'd say "no way will my car do that". Well guess what...now it will.

It did lift and spin the inside rear in the high speed sweeper but once I got used to that I could drive around it without loosing any speed. Everywhere else it was just awesome.

I can drive into a corner SO much later and harder now and carry so much more speed without worrying about the back stepping out. In fact it actually pushes first before getting neutral which the fast guys like. I need to get Keith Lamming or someone else like him back in the car now to show me how to be fast with it like this.

Oh yeah, the 3.89 for pulling out of corners is nothing short of awesome either... 😀

Fun day...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068315 - 10/19/20 12:35 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance

So if I do like corner exit and don't have any issues spinning the inside rear tire...will you finally believe me that my front sway bar fixed the lifting inside rear tire issue? laugh


It did lift and spin the inside rear in the high speed sweeper but once I got used to that I could drive around it without loosing any speed. Everywhere else it was just awesome.


*Ahem*.... Told you so. lmao j/k

That being said I was able to upset the car and lift an inside tire too but it was after a set of two really sharp higher speed offset gates, the whole car was out of sorts at those speeds with the angle of the offsets. 750# front springs here we come. It was gorgeous around the sweepers, balanced going in and it could put the power down going out. Helical diffs really are the bees knees.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1068318 - 10/19/20 01:30 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Well yes...and no... You said I'd "hate corner exits" if I recall correctly and I loved them. The only spot it lightened the inside rear was entering a sweeper at 50 mph...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068319 - 10/19/20 01:35 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Well yes...and no... You said I'd "hate corner exits" if I recall correctly and I loved them. The only spot it lightened the inside rear was entering a sweeper at 50 mph...


That's really weird dynamically. maybe some shock settings will get you out of it?


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1068321 - 10/19/20 04:56 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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So on my first run I had a little bit of rear tire wheel hop under braking, probably because I was diving in harder and braking harder. I took two clicks of rear rebound out and a half turn of rear brake bias.

I then started sliding the front tires under braking not the rear, but never adjusted on it again. I think I could probably put the rear brake back in it and take a bit more rebound out of the rear shocks. Maybe that would help it not lift on those high speed entries.

It really wasn't an issue though, I'd MUCH rather have that than the ut oh feeling of tip toeing around being loose on entry. I can't express just how DRASTIC of a change that felt like not having to worry about the rear stepping out on entry or apex...it was a HUGE difference.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068322 - 10/19/20 05:01 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: Travis Jones]  
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Originally Posted by Travis Jones
A
Lance now you're going to find out if it lifts a tire. My guess is you're not going to like corner exit. You will however LOVE corner entry. The best thing about a torsen is the lack of understeer on corner entry.

However my favorite thing about Torsen diffs is that you can absolutely hammer them in a straight line in the wet or dry and the car tracks straight.


What is really funny is that I now DO have understeer on corner entry...but only because I can dive into the corners so much harder than before because there is no fear of the rear stepping out on entry.

I need to now work on backing the high speed entries up a bit and braking a bit softer while still carrying more mid turn speed. And I may need to fine tune tweak both the front and rear shocks some more to handle the new characteristics better...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1068323 - 10/19/20 05:31 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
So on my first run I had a little bit of rear tire wheel hop under braking, probably because I was diving in harder and braking harder. I took two clicks of rear rebound out and a half turn of rear brake bias.

I then started sliding the front tires under braking not the rear, but never adjusted on it again. I think I could probably put the rear brake back in it and take a bit more rebound out of the rear shocks. Maybe that would help it not lift on those high speed entries.

It really wasn't an issue though, I'd MUCH rather have that than the ut oh feeling of tip toeing around being loose on entry. I can't express just how DRASTIC of a change that felt like not having to worry about the rear stepping out on entry or apex...it was a HUGE difference.


Have you dropped the clutch and ripped it in a straight line yet? it you want confidence that a torsen will keep you planted, that's all you need to do.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1068324 - 10/19/20 09:06 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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It blows the rear tires off from a roll if I pour the coals to it. I really have to pedal it to get it rolling and then ease into it to get it to accelerate.. In the regard it really doesn't feel any different than the locker that was in it.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
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