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#1067539 - 08/06/20 04:33 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Until we have "beam me down Scotty" the long distance drives are done. Now well into the bucket list there are just a few places, things I'd like to do. WAS on the top of the list, rent a new Vette in San Diego and drive to Vancouver up the coast, come back down the east side. Now anything in CA is off my list. Did the Corvette Museum and factory many many moons ago before the sink hole. Daytona, Indy, Garlits, Muscle Car City, Three Dog, a host of others. The Simeone in Philly was supposed to happen, but the rona got in the way. https://simeonemuseum.org/. So been to a few nice places in the past. The trip to UMI in a few weeks in the 86 will be the highlight for this year.

Rat Fink. Everyone knew that slang way back in the day. Ask a kid about it today, clueless.

Rear coil spring content.
Shocks not here yet. Hope to have them painted and installed by UMI.
New batteries did come for the grandsons Razor MX350 so someone's happy.
Bob

#1067541 - 08/07/20 12:56 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: SSLance]  
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SSLance, can you pm me? Thanks.

#1067608 - 08/12/20 05:39 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Shocks not arrived yet. Have another 50 or so miles on the car the past week, some with a passenger and we agree, ride hopefully will improve with shock low speed comp control.

One thing I never checked was the fit of the original space saver spare tire with the Wilwood D52 calipers. I knew clearance was good with stock B caliper, checked it 20 years ago. Probably the last time the spare was out of the well. Pulled it out tonight and bolted it on. It fits, about 1/8" clearance, good to go. The trip tp UMI soon will be about 550-600 miles, good to know there is a good spare. Was surprised, tire height of the spare just a hair shorter than the 26" tire i run. Even though the spare is 35 years, still a virgin, the rubber looks exceptional, no cracks. I feel confident it would get to some place safe. While the spare is bolted on the car the two front tires will go to the sink for there once a year cleaning. All brake pads make dust, even the low-no dust ones.

Another little mod was done. Stops were installed on the console to keep the seat belt up, and not sitting on the carpet when not used. Have buckled up several times since the install, Why didn't I do that 29 years when I bought the car.
Bob

#1067684 - 08/18/20 01:39 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Got an email from Viking today, shocks shipped and delivery UPS Thurs. Kinda leaves me on the short end of the stick. Will need to paint them on Thurs afternoon, yep, a black suspension parts guy, install them Thurs night as we're leaving 7am Fri morning for the UMI KOTM event. Not participating , just a spectator. Was there last year for that event and will put close to 600 miles on the 86 again this year. Just an awesome event.

There is no necessity or reason other than to road test the new shocks. Could wait until next week to install the new triples. But.

All four wheels and tires got their annual cleaning, oil filter was changed, cruise A/F ratio leaned a little, cruise control rod reinstalled, door seals got their annual pure silicone treatment, windows and interior done, other than shocks ready to roll.

Bob

#1067687 - 08/18/20 02:55 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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Slap them babies on without paint and send it!!!


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067688 - 08/18/20 05:25 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Or bring the jackstands and tools, paint them black, throw them in the trunk, and swap them in the parking lot when you get there. Then you have a back-to back (albeit in different directions) road test of old vs new...

Last edited by Hunter79764; 08/18/20 05:25 PM. Reason: typo

Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1067690 - 08/18/20 06:58 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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With the 86 I was never big on throwing stuff in the trunk. Only two things live there, an old comforter to protect the original trunk mat and a folding car show chair for my old body to sit in. Even in the console only a very small flashlight lives there, along with the key for the wheel locks.
Always felt when you build a car you shouldn't need to tow a roll cabinet behind you. Have seen trucks full so much stuff no room for a small bag of clothes for a trip.

Having 7 years run time on the Viking DA shocks I know how they behave at what settings. Will know how the new shocks feel in a short distance from the shop. Not a lot of difference between the new and old, just a little shorter shock and the addition of the low speed compression to tweak for ride quality. The new shocks will also have a slightly more aggressive valving than the old DA.

Over the 15 years of using Rust-oleum Professional High Perf Enamel have a very high opinion for it. Have sprayed dozens of parts with it and the shine, duability, and ease of spraying it is exceptionable. Tacks in 15 minutes, 2nd and 3rd coats can be applied in a hour and it's dry to the touch within hours. Really great paint in a spray can and 15 oz to boot. Tried all the rest out there and the Prof is the cream of the crop. But color choices are some what limited, but gloss, semi and flat black is all I need.
Being I don't have to touch the tubes to install them not worried about fingerprints.

Viking installs an O-ring on the shafts so you can monitor compression travel. They don't last to long, found a very thin black tie wrap on the shaft will last forever.
Bob

#1067707 - 08/20/20 02:01 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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The car is sitting on jackstands at #4 body bushings, with the floor jack supporting the rear both rear shocks are disconnected at the bottom and only need to remove the two bolts on the top of each shock. There is a UMI tower brace also bolted there but that shouldn't slow things down. In the event the Viking triples don't show up tomorrow it's 15 minutes to reattach both shocks and drop the car back on the floor.

Need to roll out the door Fri before 8am, KOTM road trip.
Bob

#1067719 - 08/21/20 03:56 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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At the last minute tonight made the smart decision. New shocks arrived today at 11:15 am, by the time they were prepped, masked and painted it was 6 pm. After diner and dishes the masking was pulled off at 9 pm, paint still to tacky to play with.
Back under the car, reinstalled the bottoms of both "old" Viking DA shocks, tightened the nuts and dropped the car. Reset the Comp to 6 and the rebound to 4 and ready to roll. No regrets.

There will be plenty of time next week to install the new shocks. And afterward getting lots of road time to play with the new shock settings to see how they play with the new springs will need to be done. Remember this post was about rear springs. The new shock/spring combo hopefully will band-aid some of the rear suspension ills. Time will tell.

Weather looks very good until Sun, looks like the car is going to get very wet on the Sun trip home. Bummer. Last year when I made the trip to KOTM it rained hard
about the first 100 miles going to Clearfield for the UMI KOTM. Did I mention I don't drive the car in the rain. Only when absolutely necessary, like this weekend.
Bob

#1067721 - 08/21/20 04:44 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Sounds like the right call.
Well, freshen up the Rain-X (or alternative) and enjoy the drive otherwise. Maybe the rain will end up being a no-show. We all know how accurate weathermen are...


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1067737 - 08/24/20 04:17 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Yep, the right call. The paint on the shocks is now dry.

The 86 made the 500 mile round trip to UMI KOTM without a single problem. About 50 miles less than last year, we spent the whole weekend at the track, and took a shorter route home across country instead of the interstates. Filled the tank twice and didn't even open the hood until we got back home. As suspected it was a 1/2 qt low on oil but that has been the one problem with this engine since switching to Mobil 1 more than 10 years ago. Right around 20 mpg overall, not bad for 4.11 gears at 72 mph average with A/C cranking. Gotta love cruise control and a T56.

The UMI event was awesome, Ryan and his staff do an excellent job and put on a first class event. Attended it last year as a spectator and again this year. The cars and particularly the drivers are WAY out of my league. There are several videos posted of the event. V
Viking shocks had two of their cars there this year, was able to spends a little time talking to Chris King and his shock assemble tech. His 2nd Gen F did pretty good this year and made it into the 32 shootout. It appears the shock choices for most cars is either Ridetech triples, the new Viking triples and a few cars had exotic Penske's.

Only got one ride-a-long this year with Travis Hartwell's in his 77 TA 2nd Gen F. He is one of the people who run parts from http://pro-touringf-body.com/. The new B spindle I tested on my car came from PTFB and we got to talk about what PTFB brings to the table. What a nice guy Travis is and his wife also. Thanks Travis.
Had offers to ride with others but declined for various reasons.

So another KOTM event in the books, looking forward to next year. If you like exceptional autox cars and drivers it's a must attend event. Don't think there is anything comparable in the country. To many highlights to list them all but the parade laps of the 32 car field around the 5/8 oval before the start of eliminations, the UMI 71 Camaro running repetitive laps Fri night to test the new course setup for Sat morning was impressive, the sponsors like Trueturn who gave me 15 minutes of his time talking steering boxes, Chris at Viking, the sound of twin turbo LS banging off rev limiter, and many other highlights.

Although the final 2 cars came down to a Miata with an LS3 transplant and an S2000 Honda with a ton of hp and a more than capable driver of the results were what they are, the cream of the crop was at the top. After looking up the winner credentials, Andy Smedegard, and the car he brought with him, he came to win, no doubt about that and although not the fast time of the day was the cream of the crop. Last year was a Tesla against a Vette for the final and the Vette won. Only a handful of other than GM cars entered this event, would have liked to see American muscle win, but it's the car and driver in the end. Congrads to Andy.
Bob

#1067738 - 08/24/20 04:49 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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You forgot to mention that there wasn't ONE Ford in the top 32 cars, late model or Vintage. laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067749 - 08/24/20 11:23 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Chad Reynolds mentioned that while rambling on Sat night. There was a Fox body, a 80 Fairmont and some newer Mustangs that ran well though, just not fast enough. And a slammed 63 Dart that stuck like crazy, along with Brad Yonkers in his 73 Duster, stock car appearance. Dale Schwartz was there with his 63 Tempest, I expected better even though it was fast. Did talk with Aaron and Chuck, and the kid with a GN who had the second quietest car there next to the Tesla. The Lambo Gallardo was very fast, just to Italian for me. He had Yokos on the car and kept running back to fill his sprayer to cool those Yokos, he said they don't stick well once overheated. A car that impressed me a lot again this year is Travis Spencer with his 67 Camaro, a family heirloom with a previous history of being a drag race car, the kid can drive, actually made the shootout with a low hp SBC.
Bob

#1067750 - 08/25/20 12:25 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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Tavis did great, he is a great driver. Tim in the Dart is the one the kept me out of the duel on the desert March 2019...hes fast.. Bradley in Gordies Recycled Duster did very well.

I felt bad for Tyler in the Scout, he blew the same corner twice in first round and got booted. Also felt bad for Phoenix native Brian Peters in final 4, that was a $10,000 cone he hit. Loved some of the big names going out earlier like Popp, so much pressure in a 1 round elimination bracket.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067799 - 08/28/20 05:12 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Installed the new Viking triples yesterday. Haven't done anything other than install yet. Well, not anything. At KOTH it's a 1/4 miles trip up the track entrance, 3/4 modified granite was nicely graded the length, no rain, lots of traffic and lots of granite dust. Along with the parking areas which are "soil" the dust was bad. Problem is the granite powder changes the tread to white and doesn't come off. On the return home hit about 3/4 hours of moderate rain fall, 65 mph, so granite dust wash is splashed everywhere and the tires are still white. Cleanup from the road trip is taking a lot longer than cleanup before the road trip.

Weather permitting, no rain, will get some time on the new shocks. Initial setup prescribed by Viking will be for ride quality and see if the shocks bottom out. The Viking installed 0-rings are gone and very small tie wraps will now show max compression on the shock at the "ride quality" setting. Hoping this 1/2" shorter shock gives me a little more shaft showing.
Previous checks when the springs were out showed the rear was just touching the bump stops at full suspension compression when the shock were just about reaching full compression. A shorter shock will improve that situation. Longer bump stops would also help but they become a suspension travel limiter. Would rather not limit the travel of the rear.

Before leaving on the trek to KOTM last week backed off the "old" Viking DA to Comp 6 and Rebound 4 to make the ride a little more cushy, and it was just a tad better. Normally run C 8 R 7 on the street to not bury the tie wrap wraps until you really push the car. When the DAs were pulled the tie wraps were buried at the top of the shaft. Being that was a 505 mile road trip last week the car needed to get back home in one piece, there were just a limited numbers of places the suspensions was flexed.

Hoping the new triples being shorter and with more control over the rear suspension was worth the expense.
I will be putting the rear Viking DA shocks and 4 Koni Reds up for sale soon.
Bob

#1067839 - 09/02/20 10:47 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Gorgeous day here the past Sun, nicest in months. About a 40 mile trip around the block, various road conditions to see how the triples set for ride quality behaved. Can say I was happy set at 6-6-4, it was OK with the ride. Topped off the fuel tank, back in the shop checked shocks to see how much travel was left before bottoming out, 3/4". Will back off on those setting to what Viking shows as the softest setting for ride and retest ride and remaining travel. Doing this will show me what I can get away with on shock setting before running out of travel. Doubt I will ever be set for ride quality very often. But knowing when I run out of shock travel is important, one of the reason for buying shorter shocks.
Once ride settings and shock travel is known can start playing with cranking up the setting to see if they help one of the ills of the rear suspension.

It's been a little over two years since the front suspension work to allow the 9 1/2 caster setup, 4K miles on the car since. In the Spring of this year I played with three different B spindles trying to improve the Ackermann. In the end saw no way via steering arm to get more Ackermann, on my car, reinstalled the set i ran for 20 years. Aligned on my rack to 9.6, -1.25 and 1/8 toe out. A trip to the fancy 4 wheel computer rack verified my setting, or close enough.

While cleaning the granite concrete dust off the tire treads had time to do a seriously look at tread wear. The effects of -1.25 camber and 1/8" toe out now showing on the inner tread, it's got the heel-toe wear. Some of the increase in that pattern I attribute to the 500 miles trip at 70 mph going to KOTM. A static 1/8" toe out will increase as road speeds go up, more toe out, more wear. Add the -1.25 camber to that equation and inner tread wear, heel-toe wear seem to be the end product.

Rotated the tires front to rear and will dial back the toe out to zero, or just a touch of toe out for now, and see how the tires like that until the opportunity to run an autox happens. Not a big deal to add more toe out before an event.
I only ever get 10 or 12K on a set of tires, these Comp 2's are now 5 years old with 10K. I find when tires get 4 or more years old the compound deteriorates, traction suffers, but still with 50% tread left. The prior KDW set of four had lots of tread left, but the rubber was junk at 6 years old.
Guess it's time to use up the Comp 2s.
Bob

#1067842 - 09/03/20 02:40 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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After rethinking changing the toe out to near zero decided that was silly, Just run the current setup until next Spring and enjoy the benefits. Will throw a new set of tires on in the Spring so might as well use them up, not worry about the wear on this set.

Turned the rear shocks softer for the next ride. Still one step softer to go.
Because the last car show in town, 300 cars, was called the "corona feast" by a few notables this Sat will revert back to a cruise, up and down the 1 mile stretch of High St, no stopping, no standing. I'll have to take the wife with me, I'll get an ear full if she's not happy again with the ride.
Bob

#1067845 - 09/03/20 03:54 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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Thanks for sending me the KOTM 2.0 program Bob, that was an unexpected and pleasant surprise.

Good luck with the new shock testing...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067848 - 09/04/20 12:09 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I was hoping that was a little bait on the hook for next year.

Way back in the old days, 70s, when a set of Gabriel Red Rider shocks or Gabriel air shocks on the back of the car was the cat's meow Koni, Bilstein. KYB was really not available to all but the exotics. In 1999 install the rebound adjustable Koni on the 86, thought I was living the dream. Now 20 years later pulling a set of double adjustable for a triple. Ain't life good.
Bob

#1067881 - 09/08/20 03:41 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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With time and weather constraints testing of the rear shocks still going on. Starting with the C and R settings dialed way back to see how ride quality and shock compression travel is almost done. Yesterday dialed to the minimum still had travel left but will top of the gas tank and throw a 200 pounder in the pass seat and go
for a spirited ride over undulating roads at speed. This to see if the shocks bottom out at low settings. So far after three different valve setting still had 3/4" compression travel left after a test drives. And I can say the ride quality in my opinion is good, no objectionable. 70% of perceived ride quality comes form the rear suspension. Being able to soften it up via shock settings in the rear might get my wife back in the car again for any road trips we may take together.

Considering now with a 200/100 rear spring rate and the new triple shocks this rear suspension project is starting to come together. The new shocks have a more aggressive rate than the old DA Viking shocks. They have the HP valving which should be better for my application.

Once past ride quality, shock travel testing cranking the shock settings up is in order. Trying to be systematic about the testing. Next up is street handling manors. Being real time testing, autox, is far from normal this year that will have to wait.
Bob

#1067986 - 09/15/20 09:11 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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MAP Offline
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One of the many problems with so much unsprung mass in the rear is that when the shocks are adjusted to give a reasonable Q for the unsprung mass resonance, the Q of the sprung mass resonance becomes way overdamped. That, in turn, can mean loss of rear traction when going over wide, large road undulations.

This can be ameliorated somewhat by using stiffer rear springs and much softer rear tires, but the mass ratio is just too messed-up to be completely corrigible with stiffness and dampening adjustments. As a refresher, mechanical Q goes as sqrt(mass/compliance).

#1068057 - 09/20/20 11:57 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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MAP Offline
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Just to clarify, the greatest danger of losing traction is at the rear's sprung-mass resonant frequency, which is probably not far from 2Hz. Best - MAP

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