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#1066350 - 05/09/20 08:08 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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SSLance  Offline
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Or...

Just buy the already proven spindle that does all of the above with specular results.

Maybe they are expensive for a reason? laugh

I'll sell them to you at wholesale Bob...what do ya say?


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1066354 - 05/10/20 03:40 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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Pottstown, Pa
We've already beat up the AFX spindle swap and I can't justify the 4k dollars to do it. Beside the the B spindle swap has been a pet peeve of mine for 20 years now and I'll continue to TRY to make it work. I had it very good before making the decision to improve the poor Ackermann. But being retired now and having way to much time on my hands just makes it easier to figure out how to make it better. The sad part is with the lockdown and no place to go for the foreseeable future you can't even test what you've got. Autox in this area is slim with both the local chapters of SCCA struggling to find a good venue. Maple Grove Raceway was sold recently and they were saying improvements to the drag racing format which included an autox and road course but that is now postponed. RONA has taken it's toll on all aspects of the sports world. Just had another birthday, running out of time to beat on this car, next one is the 7 decade birthday.

Had the old spindles laying on the bench yesterday with the measuring sticks laying all over them. Going to see another chassis shop friend next week to see about another approach to moving the outer tie rod outboard. A B spindle is very thick in the steering arm, much thicker than a G spindle arm. Probably because it was used in various much larger and heavier vehicles than the light weight G and S10/Blazer spindle's applications. Cutting and welding of that thick arm would require a LOT of TIG time, and expensive today gas.

Looking at a much simpler approach that wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of the arm itself. The 3/16" that the new spindles moved the outer tie rod outboard was compromised by the .450" the arm was effectively shortened to 5.80" from 6.25". The tie rod thread is a 3/4"-16 thread, only had to make two turns on the rod adjustment to set toe again after the swap, 1/8" is the effective gain outboard, not nearly enough.

Having now three sets of B spindles to play with the plan is to add weld to the outboard side of the arm at the tie rod location, plug weld the tie rod hole and then relocated it outboard. It done properly welding won't effect the arm itself, only the small area at the rod hole. With the third set of spindle what I consider disposable I will MIG the buildup and plugging of the hole and then drill and ream a new location, 3/8" outboard. Then throw the spindles on the car to see what the Ackermann number is on the turnplates. Will use those spindles only as a test, not for driving. If the gains are worth the trouble then will proceed with the proper methods of heating and TIGing the change to the second set of spindles. Sounds like a plan.
Bob

#1066357 - 05/10/20 05:39 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Warriorridge Offline
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Petersburg PA
I don't know what the b spindles are like, so I can't say this with certainty, but I think that you are going to have to move the steering arm hole out a lot more than 3/8". On mine ( blazer spindles) I moved the steering arm out 2", and honestly, probably could have gone even a little further akerman wise, but you start running into clearance issues with the brakes and wheels if you go to far.

#1066360 - 05/10/20 07:08 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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The steering arm on a G and Blazer spindle is 6.75", a B is 6.25", impacts the amount you need to move it.

Another point of interference is the rim. On the old 15" wheels the tie rod would be into thew edge of the rim when move much. On 16 a little more room, on 17 and 18 the rotor becomes the interference.

A plumb-bob was dropped off the grease fitting of both lower ball joints, the dead center side to side of the rear track and center of the axle tubes to locate the rear point of the triangle for 100% Ackermann was done. What I found was for 100% the steering arms would need to be at a 13 degree angle on a 109" wheelbase. On a B body or B station wagon it would be 11. With the B spindle on the bench and measuring a 13 degree angle the tie rod is into the rotor, bad. To get that 13 degrees the inner would need to go outboard on the B spindle about 1 9/16".
The measured angle on a stock G and B spindle are almost the same, about 1 degree outboard. The new B spindle is slightly more at almost 3 degrees. I figure the 3/8" outboard on a B will net about 6 degrees, so roughly 50% Ackermann.

I have several pictures of the AFX spindle with the steering arm attached but no measurement of angle. May see if Lance can give me a guesstimate of how much the AFX spindle moves the tie rod outboard. He did tell me he was seeing 6 1/2 degrees of Ackermann with his setup. The AFX steering arm is 6" if I recall. And running a smaller than 17 wheel is not possible on the AFX, unless you flip the steering arms so they face inboard, which can be done with the latest AFX arms.

I did walk over to the old Club Cadet riding mower and cranked the wheels full lock, yep almost 100% Ackermann, but it only goes max 10 mph.

My 02 SS has a pretty good front suspension on it, will throw the turnplates under the front wheels just for S&G to see what it is. I would think there are very few cars that come close to 50% Ackermann. As I mentioned earlier road course cars don't worry about Ackermann, oval race cars do, but only on one side, really really fast cars like F1 do the opposite, anti Ackermann.

My goal was to get to the 4 degrees Ackermann at 20 degrees, we rarely turn full lock at 30 degrees, concentrating on Ackermann, bump and camber gains at that 20 degree point.
Bob

#1066405 - 05/14/20 05:08 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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A little good, a little no good news yesterday.

First the no good. I was told that the Maple Grove Raceway's sale to a three person partnership fell through. That really bummed me out. The three were going to turn it into a multi-use facility including a go-kart, a road "training" course and an autox and improve what really needed done, hospitality. The deal fell through about two months ago when the family got anal. I've autox twice in the pits there years ago,, not a good venue but ok, but very close to home. I can write that off now. That was going to be my go-to for this year. Sucks.

That same person, a local chassis shop owner, helped me today with the procedure for the steering arms and that's real good news. He said cut them and weld them, it's been done it many times, cast steel quality in GM spindles is very good. Preheat, don't TIG it, MIG it, TIG is to hard, correct amount of amperage, long cool down. Sounds easy, he's only doing the final weld after I tack them back together after the fab work. My little 140 Miller wouldn't cut it, but I knew that, it will tack ok though.
So the good news is I found a qualified person to move along with a spindle steering arm mod. Yea. With three sets of spindles to work with the junk set, sorry Paul, will get cut first, tacked together and go to the turnplates to see the results.

Because there are several odd angles, distances, heights that need to be maintained just cutting and tacking the arm in a new position can't happen easily. With a ball joint and tie rod ball studs installed into the spindle a 3/16"x 1"x 10" steel locator arm bolts to spindle via the studs. I beat that 10" piece of steel into submission with a torch and hammer this afternoon. It's almost done just a little tweaking with a 24" pipe wrench to tune it yet. The plan is cut the end of the arm off and then bolt the jig to the two studs, which have nicely machined surfaces to work off of. Rotate it out about 1/2" and tack it together. Hopefully holding the correct tie rod stud angles and arms height relative to horizontal. The steering arm length and outboard movement is fixed by the locator arm and easily measured.

Yes that is only the right side, another locator arm needs to be made for the left. They will get reused for the second set of spindles. And after I hack and tack the "junk" set, test fit them on the car and may find I'm happy I can then take one of my good sets of spindles, hack and tack again, test fit and then go see the qualified welder. Sure sound like a lot of work.

As I was making the locator arms for the hack and tack I remembered seeing somewhere on the information highway a company was making steel reinforcing brackets that do exactly what I made. It was for a import drift car with weak steering arms. If a failure it would be a little bit of insurance against losing one tie rod end from a broken weld. Running 9 1/2 degrees caster on this car I should be able to take my hands off the handle bars, the homeless tire should still go straight. Kinda like that 20" Stingray with the long fork.

More fun.
Bob

#1066412 - 05/14/20 08:14 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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SSLance  Offline
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Email sent Bob


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1066429 - 05/16/20 04:40 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Today got the other locator arm fabbed using the "junk" spindles for the initial placement of the locator. Then as a let's see bolted them to my good old set that were ran for 20 years to see how all the angles lined up, very nicely. The locators will work great to place the cut off end of the spindle arm right were it needs to be to maintain the tie rod's approach angles and it appears that being able to maintain the tie rods height as the new locations swings outboard the bump should not change. A big plus!. The bump was very good from 1 1/2" compression to full droop with those old spindles. The new spindles I got from protousingf-body that are on the car now change bump for the worse on my car due to the other mods made to the geometry on this car.

So next up, after I finish re-gripping my golf clubs, is figure where to cut the arms. They will somewhat hinge at a give point and will need to be V-ed a lot because they are so beefy even at the narrow point . Good thing I have a junk set to cut up first. They will be cut, moved and tacked together, then measured on the turnplates. Looking for a magic number of more than 4 degrees. Would be nice to be done with that next week.

I got a number from Lance on how much an AFX steering arms is offset to the outboard side, he's thinking 3/8". That was a number I kinda was thinking could be good. The locators were built to get an accurate 1/2" outboard movement, they will go out to 5/8" if necessary. 1/2" is the where they get tacked first, can go in or out from there.

A stock G and B spindle steering arm angle is about 1 degree. The new B spindle with it's relocated tie rod location was less than 3. A quick check ton the old spindles today using the locator and 1/2" move outboard was 6 degrees. When the chassis Ackermann points were transposed on the shop floor the number for my 109" wheelbase car (not 108.1) showed 100% Ackermann was 13 degrees. So the guess is 50% Ackermann at 1/2".

While looking for info on who cuts arms found this: Interesting.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-Spindle-Savers-Steering-Arm-Brace-for-1979-Up-GM-Metric,2097.html

Gotta wash the car tomorrow so the wife and I can do a local cruise night which includes not getting out of your car. Maybe Sun afternoon make the 15 mile trip out to Sonic to see if that place is a happening on Sun. Nothing much opened up here, but will put 75 miles on the car this weekend, just because I can and the car needs exercise too. Will have to soften up the rear shocks to make the wife happier, difficult these days, she was never fond of buckboard rides.
Happy motoring!
Bob

#1066465 - 05/18/20 05:59 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Not much done. Stripped all the paint/POR off the ends of the donor arms, next is take them outside and cut the end off one arm and hope the cut angle is correct. Need to insure the Vs on both side for welding are where they need to be. Measure twice, cut once, more like measure ten times.

Got 8 out of 13 golf clubs regripping done. New spikes in the shoes. Ready to glue the front plastic bumper back together from the deer hit on the 13 Tacoma. Put the necessary 75 miles on the car this weekend, wife was happy to get home.
And went to get a Goodbye Yellow Brick Road CD out of the console and the hinge let go. Now shopping for a new hinge fix, the lid is perfect, and not original.


Did I mention I really like the way the drives from all the other suspension mods. Didn't crank down on the rear shocks C&R for the long ride, left at 8-8, wanted to see how those 200 lb rear springs felt on a cruise to Sonic. As I said the wife was happy to get home. It's very firm. Still thinking about getting the new Viking triple adjustable for the back of the car. Viking says by adding the third adj, low speed compression, the shocks can be adjusted to improve low speed, cruising, without sacrificing the high speed control. Still on the fence about that. Time to sell the 4 Koni, and a number of other suspension parts laying around.
Bob

#1066494 - 05/20/20 04:23 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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MC96 Offline
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St. Johns MI
Bob, if you’re feeling froggy I just took some speedway 3 piece metric spindles in on trade.

They have the short steering arm (to match the mustang 2 spindles that are used on Chevelle clip dirt modifieds) but swapping to the long that match the stock g body spindle is easy and inexpensive. Youd need stock front calipers, or a version of them with a different bore. I have some stock front rotors laying here I could include too unless you have yours around yet.

The short arms have a 5/8ths hole to use with a kit like https://allstarperformance.com/bump-steer-kit-all18600/
If you already have an existing bump steer kit all you’d need is a bolt

Ramey has them on the green machine currently, not sure what steering arms he has but I know he swapped them side to side for an Ackerman advantage.

Yours to try if you want, if you like them we can work something out.


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1066495 - 05/20/20 04:25 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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MC96 Offline
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I should say that I have to verify they are the correct body.

The kit to replace the pinto spindles and the kit to replace metric spindles have the same body with the exception of the upper ball joint taper. One matching the pinto spindle, that ends up getting reamed for a Chrysler screw in, and the other matching the metric upper bj. Both bodies use the metric lower ball joint.

If it’s the right body it should bolt right on.

Last edited by MC96; 05/20/20 04:25 AM.

86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1066496 - 05/20/20 04:46 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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That for the offer Mason but I'll stick to beating up the B spindle. Already have a nice pair of Wilwood D52 calipers and Stoptech 1LE rotor, bump corrected, new balljoints, tall spindle Global UCA, and very good geometry. Down grading to a set of metric spindle and small brakes would be a loss of money, time and mental sweat. With only Ackermann to improve on the setup the cutoff wheel is already in the angle grinder, just need to finalize the arm's cut position.

Got a little sidetracked with gluing a Tacoma plastic bumper back together and a fix for my 86's broken console lid. Golf clubs are done though, 1 o'clock Fri Tee time.
Hoping to have the test steering arms ready to go on the car for Mon.
Bob

#1066507 - 05/21/20 04:25 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Cut and tack welded the steering arms back together today moving outboard 1/2", Next is throw them on the car and turnplates to see if all the trouble is worth it. Can go another 1/8" yet using the arm hole locator. Need to see how much clearance now between the steering arm and rotor also.
Bob

#1066556 - Yesterday at 03:48 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Another short update:

The modified donor spindles went on the car today, it's a roller on the ground. Quickly figured out that just dropping the front end back on the turnplates and getting a good number for the change in Ackermann was not going to work, not accurate. The outer tie rod moved outboard 1/2", cranked the adjuster out 4 turns, I roughed in the toe to 1/8 out and close the door.

Mon will get the alignment rack back down off the mezz and set the car up on it. Setting up the turnplates is the key to accuracy on this homemade rack. Being this is the third set of B spindles on this car in a month it will be interesting to see if the alignment numbers change from the brand new B spindles just removed. The camber numbers did change when the new spindles went on replacing my "good old B spindles".

Besides the Ackermann change a bump correction can also be done to the end of the steering arm.. Will be looking at that. I was happy with the bump on my old spindles, a little bump out at full droop, a little to much bump out at 1 1/2" compression, but tolerable. The new spindles caused bump in, to much at full droop.
Bob

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