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#1066431 - 05/16/20 12:56 PM New Build  
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3
gbodypharm Offline
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gbodypharm  Offline
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Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3
Bedford Heights, OH
Hey all,

I am new here but have spent plenty of time reading through the forums and other online resources. I just got an 84 MCSS with original computer controlled 305 with plans to swap the engine with one I have been rebuilding the past year. I just want to make sure I have all my bases covered for when I start this project.

The engine L31 vortec out of a 97 K1500 bored 30 over with Wiseco flat top pistons, K1 rods, Chevy Perf. LT4 Hot cam, rebuilt/machined vortec heads, new valves, springs, seals, retainers etc. Majority of this engine has been replaced with upgrades with the exception of the crank (re balanced and polished), push rods, and rocker arms.

I want to retain the factory computer controls of the car so I am keeping the distributor and q-jet. I know I will need an electric fuel pump so I plan on swapping a fuel tank from a fuel injected Monte Carlo, sending unit from a GN and getting an in tank fuel pump.

I know they flexplate won't work with the 84 starter but I planned on getting a Powermaster mini anyways.

I know I need a vortec specific intake so I was planning on the Edelbrock Performer 2116

Emissions will not be an issue in my area since the car is more than 25 years old so no need for EGR. I believe without this I will run into issues on long drives and throwing a trouble code so to my understanding a ZZ4 prom will help. If I am correct I will need this, along with a ECU swap from an 87/88.

The plan is to make this into a fun streetcar/weekend driver.

Anyone know if I am missing anything or if there are any other issues that will come up when doing this build?
Thanks a bunch.

#1066436 - 05/16/20 05:50 PM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,677
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
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Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,677
Pearl, MS, 39208
Sounds like a fun project, good plan, and you have the basics covered. You'll always run into the little hot-rod gotchas. One thing you didn't mention but might already know about, you'll need a bypass or return regulator. Holley makes a single in, single out to carb 12-881 for around $55. Maybe someone that has done a carb conversion using the stock 4.3 EFI fuel pump can say for sure, but I don't know if the 1/4" stock return line will let you get the pressure low enough for the carb. If not, you may need to run an additional line to the rear. If so, I'd just get some 1/2" aluminum line (in case of future upgrades) to run as the feed line to the regulator and use the stock SS feed line as the return - be sure to hook them up to the correct lines on the EFI sending unit at the tank.

Might want to check this thread out concerning issues with the throttle and transmission cable bracket. I was able to make my stock bracket work on a single plane but can’t remember all the specifics – did my best in the post to remember what was done. Mock up all that on the engine stand and work out all the issues before sealing up the intake to the heads. Using an aftermarket bracket could also prove problematic with the vacuum port on the rear intake runner. If it comes to it, you can always drilled and tapped your own vacuum port – which isn’t that big a deal while the intake is off the engine.

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1065959&page=5


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#1066442 - 05/17/20 04:20 AM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
mmc427ss Online content
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
Pottstown, Pa
What is the plan for the exhaust system? If staying with the CCC and going full length headers change the O2 sensor to a three wire heated. Where the O2 is usually located is the header's collector ,down stream. The collector temp may not be hot enough especially at idle , 600 degrees needed to keep the O2 sensor outputting. No signal from the O2 and ECM goes open loop. Can be annoying. Shorty headers would do a heated O2 to be safe, if staying with the factory cast, simplicity, original single wire is fine.
Not a difficult part of your project.

Haven't really looked at what the pump choices are for what you are doing. The pressure becomes the problem, getting rid of the excess. A TPI pump is 15 psi?The Qjet only like 6. That would be a lot of dead head without a large enough return, would kill the pump I would think. A good return regulator would be needed along with a way to read pressure at the carb inlet. What if instead of returning fuel from the front of the car why not put the regulator next to the tank. Right out of the regulator's return port with a piece of 1/4" dumping straight into the tank return tube. Being a very short run from the regulator to the tank very little back pressure, a 1/4" line should be fine. All you need then is a fuel pressure gauge or a gauge port under the hood to set the pressure the carb will see. Kinda a PITA to have to crawl under the rear of the car to set the pressure but you don't adjust very often once set.

The Spectre FI tank is a good tank, several of use have one. The old Monte FI tanks are rare these day, and hard to find a cherry one. Original GM FI tanks had plastic sumps and baffles, a much better design than what the aftermarket has today. The new sumps and baffle are spot welded sheetmetal.

There is some good FI fuel hose, Gates, be weary of imported hose. When you put the pump in the tank clamps and hose connections can't leak, wouldn't be prudent. There are special FI hose clamps for high pressure fuel connections.
Above the rear axle is a sheetmetal shield protecting three rubber hoses underneath. You CAN'T reuse the 3/8" pressure, shouldn't reuse the 1/4" return and can reuse the 5/16"vent to canister hose.

Pump wiring. Never really investigated that either but the Buick boys throw a pump HOT wiring kits as an upgrade.
https://www.gn1performance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=FuelPumpWiringUpgrade

Pump should be on a relay and the relay controlled by some kind of safety switch. On most car when you turn the key to ON the ECM will run the pump about three seconds and shutoff unless the ECM sees that the engine is running. Usually an FI engine fires right away, the 3 seconds has primed the FI pressure so even a little cranking and it fires right away. One of the BEST things about an FI.

The CCC doesn't have any pump capability. Some pump systems will use just a key ON and pump is running. Some will tie into the oil pressure and use that as a go-no- go safety switch. The oil pressure switch used for the electric choke on the Qjet is a switch that could be used. When you would crank the engine it's going to build enough oil pressure to close a low pressure switch, 4 PSI. Crank engine pump turns on, carb already had a little gas in it and fills quickly, engine fires and done.
HTH
Bob

#1066444 - 05/17/20 04:38 AM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
mmc427ss Online content
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
20+ Year
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
Pottstown, Pa
Knock sensor circuit. Will you be reusing it? It's actually an OK circuit worth keeping. just need to change the knock sensor to to a 350 engine sensor. They are bore dependent, Bigger bore different frequency.

Kevin mentioned that vac port on the intake and read through that post he linked for throttle/TV cable install.
Bob

#1066448 - 05/17/20 12:26 PM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3
gbodypharm Offline
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gbodypharm  Offline
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Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3
Bedford Heights, OH
I was aware of the need for a fuel pressure regulator just forgot to mention it. Mounting it by the tank is a good idea for the short return I did not think of. I like that idea even though checking the fuel pressure gauge would involve a lot of back and forth. I plan on replacing all the fuel lines when the time comes for the swap. I was going to weld on some AN bungs to the sender to ensure no leaks. Wiring the pump with some sort of safety switch was in the back of my mind, so the pressure switch for the choke is probably what I will do.

As far as the exhaust comes, stock for the time being. I will upgrade that in the future so the heated O2 sensor not something thought about. Good to know.

Knock sensor will be swapped to the 350 sensor.

The throttle/TV bracket will have to be looked at when I get my intake to see what I can get to work. I will read through the forums and link posted for that.

For the PROM chip I see a member here sells custom chips. I tried to PM him but inbox is full. Any other ideas of where to get one? Just search ebay?

Thanks for all the responses. Definitely gave me some things to think over for this project.

#1066457 - 05/17/20 10:54 PM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,677
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
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Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,677
Pearl, MS, 39208
In a performance application it's fairly critical to get the regulator as close to the carb as possible. It helps to have the longer line getting full pressure from the pump (around 15lbs for the 4.3 TBI EFI pump) to overcome potential pressure loss when encountering high g-force levels like launching at the track. In addition putting the return regulator near the carb allows for the fuel to circulate, which will provide cooler fuel to the carb during WOT blasts.

That said, and not saying you don't have a performance engine, having the regulator near the tank in this particular application/power level might be fine and be worth giving it a try. You'll NEED to check it out through - should be able to tell pretty quick by watching the fuel pressure under WOT when doing a quarter mile pass (or if it starts nosing down after a couple seconds under WOT).

Edit - Short runs of the Gates LP (Low Permeation) Fuel Line to metal lines work really well to keep gas smell down in the garage. I'd replace all the current short runs with that while doing the tank swap. If you're thinking about running AN type hose, stay away from the steel braided rubber (not aware of anyone making a low permeation braided hose) and either run something like the aluminum fuel lines or bump up to the PTFE/teflon hose for any new long runs - your nose and folks in your garage will thank you.

Last edited by BadSS; 05/17/20 11:05 PM.
#1066466 - 05/18/20 06:53 AM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
mmc427ss Online content
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
20+ Year
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
Pottstown, Pa
Bitflipper is on here often right now. He's the one who just did his Vortec engine swap and was having issues with the throttle/TV cable bracket. Jump in on that thread and he should answer you about the delete PROM.
I saw a GM delete PROM for sale a while ago, SALTY.
Eventually adding the 079 ECM to your build will help the CCC run a little better. The delete PROM will keep the check engine light off. I don't think a Check Engine, Code 53, will make the ECM change programming when a 53 is detected. Just an annoyance because the check engine light will be on all the time, no EGR.

Recirculating the fuel in the 3/8" feed line up to the carb is a good thing. A good point for having the regulator as close to the carb as possible.
I run a 1/2" Cunifer feed to a Robbmac pump. A .040" restriction is located in a Tee at the outfeed side of the pump. That allows fuel to be bleed off the pressure side of the pump into the 1/4' return line back to the tank. Fuel in the feed line and pump is constantly being recirced. In the feed line before the carb is a Mallory dead head regulator set at 6 psi. An extra output port in the regulator was used to install an FI pressure test port to quick connect a pressure gauge to.

Having to dump fuel down the carb after the car sits for a few days has got old. I have friends that have added a booster pump to the feed line to fill a couple carb by running the pump for a few second before initial cranking. Adding a priming pump that doesn't interfere with normal fuel delivery has been something I'm looking at.

The Aeroquip 1/2" AQP Socketless hose doesn't seem to permeate any smell. About 3' of it used for my system. Running new fuel line between the tank to just in front of the rear tires is very difficult. Hard tubing could require separating the body from the frame to run hard line through that tight confines.I used the AQP hose.
Braided is preety but troublesome.

Somewhere in the feed line should add a 100 micron fuel filter. Mine is located where I transitioned from the AQP to 1/2" Cunifer. Right above the right LCA front pivot. Another Robbmac part. So pump, filter and tank pickup are Robbmac.
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products.html
Bob

#1066473 - 05/18/20 05:13 PM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 344
Bitflipper Offline
15+ Year
Bitflipper  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 344
Las Vegas, NV
The EPROM that I built/sell is a hybrid ZZ4/L69. I do not fully delete the EGR, it's optional. I enabled the function of the EGR from the L69 but left the code 53 deleted as per the ZZ4. With my EPROM you need to be sure to block the vacuum line for the EGR if you don't want an EGR at all.

I can confirm that the ECM does not change behavior when 53 is thrown, it just lights the lamp which is not only annoying, but could be misleading if you have other codes being thrown as well.

You can PM me if you want one of the last ones - I think there are 4 left. After that, if I choose to make any more, prices are going to have to be much higher because the people hoarding the rare EPROM required for the job on EvilBay are charging a small fortune for them.


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#1066489 - 05/19/20 11:41 PM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3
gbodypharm Offline
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gbodypharm  Offline
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Joined: May 2020
Posts: 3
Bedford Heights, OH
Bitflipper, it says your PM box is full. I am interested in buying one of your custom chips you make.

Bob your setup sounds really nice. Thanks for the input. That aeroquip hose looks like good stuff, it's something I have not seen before. Looks like I got some more to think about on the fuel system than I thought.

#1066491 - 05/20/20 01:39 AM Re: New Build [Re: gbodypharm]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 344
Bitflipper Offline
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Bitflipper  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 344
Las Vegas, NV
Sorry gbodypharm, someone beat you to the last open spot in my PM box today. Please try now.


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#1066493 - 05/20/20 03:49 AM Re: New Build [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,677
BadSS Offline
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BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,677
Pearl, MS, 39208
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
The Aeroquip 1/2" AQP Socketless hose doesn't seem to permeate any smell. About 3' of it used for my system. Running new fuel line between the tank to just in front of the rear tires is very difficult. Hard tubing could require separating the body from the frame to run hard line through that tight confines.I used the AQP hose.
Braided is preety but troublesome.


I've run 1/2" aluminum without too much trouble - you do need to run it through the area in front of the rear to the tank first. It wasn't what I'd call easy, but very doable with a little patience and determination. However, the easiest to run is the steel braided PTFE/teflon hose. The outside diameter is much smaller than the regular steel braided rubber. For instance, the outside diameter of the Aeroquip 8AN AQP socketless hose is 0.75" and the outside diameter of the Aeroquip PTFE hose (same stuff used for nitrous lines) is only 0.547". That's what I used for my feed line and it was super easy to run it and the 6AN return line through that area.

On a foot note, Summit has killer deal (probably priced wrong) on 15ft of the Aeroquip 8AN PTFE hose for $81.99 (20ft is twice as much), which is less than they have the 6AN priced. I went outside and checked and 15ft is plenty to run all the way from the tank (with a 6" filter inline) to a mechanical pump or to run to a regulator mounted to the wheel well (where I used to have mine for the carb). It looks like it would be a little short running directly to an EFI fuel rail (passenger side like on mine now) and definitely too short running up to a regulator mounted at the side/middle of a dual feed Holley - this is running through the front frame like the stock lines. It would be plenty running up from the rear (like we did on one of my friend's Monte) - I prefer not to do that though (it gets a little crowded back there).


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