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#1065863 - 04/06/20 10:23 PM T5 swap and pinion angle  
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 97
800rmk Offline
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800rmk  Offline
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Mayerthorpe, AB
I'm in the process of putting my T5 in my Monte and have a question about pinion angle. I know its between 3-3.5 degrees. If I keep the distance from the top of my G force crossmember to the center of the output shaft on the T5 the same as it was for the 200r4 then the pinion angles should be the same? I know my body bushings need replacing and the shift tower will most likely stick through the floor more than it should but that is another project. On a side note I hope everyone is doing well and is safe with the craziness the world is going through right now!


1985 Monte Carlo SS Vortec headed 355, Howards 215/225 cam, 200r4 with trans go kit,Patriot headers and magnaflow mufflers, 7.5" 3:73 diff
soon to install: 8.5 inch diff from 84 Olds 442
#1065865 - 04/07/20 12:48 AM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
Cool, another club member,. MMC.

Yes you need to maintain close to the same engine trans angle when swapping, which is that 3-3 1/2 degree range. Because my t56 and 200 were close to the same length I used the center of the output shaft to the tunnel measurement. That because the stock trans crossmember was reused and it was getting cut and modified for the new location of the trans mount.

Haven't done the T5 swap, have seen it many times in person, but with a T56 major tunnel messaging needs to be done to get the trans high enough to get back to that 3-3 1/2. Don't think the T5 was any surgery to get it in.

Are you aware of this site?
https://garage-scene.com/t5-into-ag-body/

Bob

#1065868 - 04/07/20 01:53 AM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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800rmk Offline
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800rmk  Offline
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Mayerthorpe, AB
Thanks Bob, yeah I have seen that garage scene swap. He talks about using a stock modified crossmember and a solid mount but doesn't talk about height of the transmission. He shows the top of the shift tower protruding slightly above the floor but again how are his body bushings? Thinking about it more, the T5 is 3 3/8" longer, measured from bellhousing mating surface to end of output shaft splines. Shortening the driveshaft +- 3 inches will increase the pinion angle. Looks like I have to find a site that talks about it and do some math. Putting the out put shaft at the same height as where the 200 was wont do it I think. Its too bad 85 SS isn't on here much lately, he did this exact swap on his car.


1985 Monte Carlo SS Vortec headed 355, Howards 215/225 cam, 200r4 with trans go kit,Patriot headers and magnaflow mufflers, 7.5" 3:73 diff
soon to install: 8.5 inch diff from 84 Olds 442
#1065870 - 04/07/20 05:29 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
Joined: Jan 2000
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mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
With regard to pinion angle here's about the best read on the web to understand pinion angle. Most importantly it's the driveline angle running down the highway, this is a product of all three parts in the driveline.
http://media.spicerparts.com/cfs/files/media/4ohobHpp8jBQnRpq4/j3311-1-dssp.pdf?token=eyJhdXRoVG9rZW4iOiIifQ%3D%3D&store=original

In a perfect world the engine trans angle would be very close to zero, race cars are close to zero, it about center of gravity, ground clearance and driveline angle be close to 0 at WOT. Production cars use the 3 degree angle to aid in oil drain back and oil pickup, tunnel clearance for the bellhousing, probable a few other reasons as well. Notice the mounting flange on a carbed V8 intake manifold is level while the engine is 3 or so degrees down. This is primarily because of the floats needed for a carb, FI can care less about that angle.

There are several inexpensive angle gauges that can be used to check all the driveline angles.
https://www.harborfreight.com/dial-gauge-angle-finder-34214.html

I tried laying under the car to use the cheap dial type, bought this one and have used it for a dozen other projects.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ICP-102144

You're throwing in an 8 1/2" at the same time? Maybe a set of adjustable UCA at the same time. Would make dialing in pinion angle easier and less concern over exactly matching engine/trans angle before and after swap.

I too was concerned about getting the engine/trans angle very close to original when i did the T56, 8 1/2" 87 442 rear, Denny's shaft almost 20 years ago. Didn't have a vibration problem. Oh, installing a poly mount for the trans can reduce vibration.
Later added adj UCA, then a few years later adj LCA, this to be able to dial the pinion angle in, adj trust angle and move the rear housing rearward, all advantages of adj upper and lowers.

Bob

#1065871 - 04/07/20 06:57 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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Richie Cat Offline
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Richie Cat  Offline
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Lake Ronkonkoma, N.Y.
If you had, to put an app on your phone for an angle gauge.


83 SC, 355 w/TPI
#1065872 - 04/07/20 08:30 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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Posts: 97
800rmk Offline
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800rmk  Offline
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Posts: 97
Mayerthorpe, AB
I did put the Tremec toolbox app and another angle finder app on my phone today. The Tremec angle finder wants 3 angles- tranny, pinion and driveshaft. I don't have a drive shaft to measure lol (Not one that fits right now anyway ) I'm going to move the jackstands to the suspension, so it takes the weight, as close to the tires as possible and try keeping everything level. Then I'll check the angles. I know its not perfect but I think keeping the tranny and pinion angles close it should acceptable.


1985 Monte Carlo SS Vortec headed 355, Howards 215/225 cam, 200r4 with trans go kit,Patriot headers and magnaflow mufflers, 7.5" 3:73 diff
soon to install: 8.5 inch diff from 84 Olds 442
#1065875 - 04/07/20 09:44 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
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Posts: 4,757
Pottstown, Pa
Without the car sitting at ride height checking pinion angle is not accurate. As the rear suspension moves from full droop to full compression the rear rotates, this because of the unequal length 4 link suspension. Been way to long but a guess on stock pinion angle at ride height would be up 2 degrees.

Also when you check engine/trans angle it's not really relative to the ground, relative to the chassis. So if the car is sitting on stands with the nose high, or low, or not at ride height the number you see on the gauge is only relative to the plane of the how the car is suspended on stands. Hope that makes sense.

On the rear find a flat plate of steel and place it over the face of the yoke and take a reading. This should give you a good number for pinion angle. If you would place stands under the rear and stands at the #2 body bushing and adjust height at #2 for a little downward rack of the rocker panels you may get a reasonable accurate pinion number. Also at that attitude of the body you may get a good engine trans number.

Just for instance last time I checked with car at ride height engine/trans was 3.9 degrees down, pinion was up 3.2 and driveshaft angle was .65 down to the rear.
those number are only relative to my car, many variable. Pinion climb in that car is minimal with all the solid joints. 1/2 to 3/4 difference works for me. Page 5 of that SPICER pdf explains angles very well.

By the way body bushing can effect how high the trans can sit in the tunnel. Ran into the problem before. It's usually a non factor but on junk bushings it can be a factor.
Bob

#1065877 - 04/07/20 11:37 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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800rmk Offline
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800rmk  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 97
Mayerthorpe, AB
Just got back from the shop- I set the front wheels on my ramps, weight on suspension. Measured distance from floor to tire. Set the rear diff on axle ( after I took off the sway bar) so the tires are the same distance off the floor. I know I don't have the tire /weight deflection on the rear tires but its within a quarter inch. I know I have to do the body mount bushings. I think this is the closest I can get it without a lift. I miss my grandfathers pit he had in his shop! I measured the pinion angle at 1 degree up. Transmission at 4 with the transmission shift tower touching the underside of the tunnel, verified it on the crank pulley, it is at 4 degrees. So, the tranny has to be raised. Thanks Bob for the insight!


1985 Monte Carlo SS Vortec headed 355, Howards 215/225 cam, 200r4 with trans go kit,Patriot headers and magnaflow mufflers, 7.5" 3:73 diff
soon to install: 8.5 inch diff from 84 Olds 442
#1065879 - 04/08/20 03:20 AM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
Joined: Jan 2000
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mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,757
Pottstown, Pa
Sounds like you have a good setup to get the crossmember done now. The higher in the tunnel the better which shouldn't be to hard with the T5. 3 1/2 degrees would be nice. Use the poly mount.

1 degree pinion angle may change once the car is sitting back on the ground and bounced around a few time to settle it. Over a range of a few inches of rear suspension travel the pinion angle changes. Once you weld up the crossmember and not having adj UCAs the driveline angles are what they are. Get that trans done so you can make a driveshaft. You only want to do that once if you intend to stay with the T5. What are you doing for a shaft?

By the way Marc, T5montecarlo, Garage Scene, is a member here and has been a little active lately. He's a wealth of info and still has at least one T5 G-body.
Bob

#1065882 - 04/08/20 03:33 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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800rmk Offline
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800rmk  Offline
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Mayerthorpe, AB
I'm going to have my stock driveshaft shortened. I have a combination u joint to go from the ford slip joint to the chevy shaft. Doesn't look like the 8 1/2 is going to get installed right away. I want to re bearing it, maybe next winter project. I know this will mean another shaft mod or different one. I was thinking that the pinion angle is a little shy measuring like I am doing. Hopefully get the hole cut in the tunnel later today.


1985 Monte Carlo SS Vortec headed 355, Howards 215/225 cam, 200r4 with trans go kit,Patriot headers and magnaflow mufflers, 7.5" 3:73 diff
soon to install: 8.5 inch diff from 84 Olds 442
#1065883 - 04/08/20 04:46 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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BladeOfAnduril27 Offline
15+ Year
BladeOfAnduril27  Offline
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Posts: 938
Doylestown, PA
Thanks for bringing this topic up. I'm slowly working on a T5 swap as well and hadn't gotten to this issue yet. Lots of good info here.

Not to hijack, but is yoke the same for 200r4 and T5? No one seems to address that directly in the swap write ups I've seen. Thanks.


~ Matt H.

1988 Monte Carlo SS w/ T-tops, White with gray int, 350, Summit cam, World Torquer S/R heads, Holley St. Dominator intake, Edelbrock 600cfm carb, Champion 3-row alum radiator, ramchargers, 200-r4 with CK Shift Kit, billet servo, 2200 stall, Afterburner headers, Pypes 2.5" with x-pipe, Violator mufflers (stock exit), S10 front brake swap.
#1065884 - 04/08/20 04:53 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
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Posts: 97
800rmk Offline
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800rmk  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 97
Mayerthorpe, AB
I bought a 1310( that will fit the T5 slip yolk for a 88 mustang) to 3R (what the factory U joint is on my 85 monte) combination U joint. I am having my factory driveshaft shortened/balanced.


1985 Monte Carlo SS Vortec headed 355, Howards 215/225 cam, 200r4 with trans go kit,Patriot headers and magnaflow mufflers, 7.5" 3:73 diff
soon to install: 8.5 inch diff from 84 Olds 442
#1066188 - 04/26/20 02:50 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 97
800rmk Offline
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800rmk  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 97
Mayerthorpe, AB
Well, took the car out for the first time with the 5 speed on Friday night. Got about 10 miles on it and 5th gear dropped out. Builder is positive the 5th gear c clip let loose. From what I have researched this does happen and am looking for a better way to keep that gear in place. There are aftermarket lock collars out there, have to dig around a little more. Was just cruising at 65 when it happened. Now its gotta come back out. Oh joy. On a happier note, everything worked out with the install. No problems with driveline vibrations, etc.


1985 Monte Carlo SS Vortec headed 355, Howards 215/225 cam, 200r4 with trans go kit,Patriot headers and magnaflow mufflers, 7.5" 3:73 diff
soon to install: 8.5 inch diff from 84 Olds 442
#1066239 - 04/30/20 07:44 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: 800rmk]  
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 145
T5montecarlo Offline
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T5montecarlo  Offline
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 145
Lederach, PA
Congratulations on your T5 swap!

You are right that I didn't mention anything about angle; my concern was to push it as high in the tunnel as I could since I could visually see the angle would be close to correct if put as high as possible without vibrating on the floor pan. I don't have any drive line vibrations and the solid rubber mount still looks the same as it did when I put it in nearly 30 years ago.

Marc

#1066242 - 04/30/20 09:39 PM Re: T5 swap and pinion angle [Re: BladeOfAnduril27]  
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 145
T5montecarlo Offline
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T5montecarlo  Offline
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Posts: 145
Lederach, PA
Originally Posted by BladeOfAnduril27
Not to hijack, but is yoke the same for 200r4 and T5? No one seems to address that directly in the swap write ups I've seen. Thanks.

Yes the yoke for the TH2004R is the the same as for the T5.


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