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#1065292 - 03/06/20 09:51 AM remove the radiator air box?  
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axld Offline
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axld  Offline
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lakeland,fl
I tried a search and did not find any thing, SO here goes. I was wondering would i have better air flow ( into rad/ condenser/ back out from under hood ) as I have really hot under the hood temps with this latest LS engine . Is there a big disadvantage if removed? or was this just a design for the NASCAR high speed part of our cars?


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065297 - 03/06/20 04:21 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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Fred SS Offline
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Fred SS  Offline
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Glassboro, NJ
I had asked a similar question a few years ago concerning the air box. If I remember correctly, I was told that it actually improves air flow into the radiator by not allowing the air from the grill to go underneath the car.


87 SS, Harwood cowl induction hood, UMI trailing arms. Edelbrock TES Headers (Jet Hot Coated). Goodwrench 350, Ported TPI, Trick Flow 56cc alum heads, SLP runners, Comp Cams 260AH-12 cam, Trick Flow 1.5 roller rockers, Bilsteins, TCI 2400 stall converter, Ramcharger fans, Denny's 3.5" Driveshaft, GBodyParts GNX Wheels.
#1065320 - 03/08/20 11:51 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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axld Offline
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lakeland,fl
well ok , thanks FredSS .Guess I will but a cowl hood for now.


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065321 - 03/08/20 02:01 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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upflying Offline
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upflying  Offline
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Reno, NV
What kind of temps do you have with your LS engine?
The air box or dog house is a structural part of the SS nose, not sure you can or should open it up.

Last edited by upflying; 03/08/20 02:02 PM.

86 MCSS Notchback coupe, LS3, 4L65E, QP 9", Eaton Truetrac, 4 wheel disc, column shift, Dakota Digital, silver with maroon bench interior

#1065327 - 03/08/20 11:49 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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Yuma, AZ
Yes, the airbox actually increases thermal power transfer by increasing the pressure on the front side of the radiator. If that hadn't been the case, the factory could have saved some coin and weight by omitting it. The only trouble is that the hot air leaving the radiator is impeded in exiting the somewhat closed-in engine bay, unfortunately. Best - MAP

Last edited by MAP; 03/08/20 11:53 PM.
#1065336 - 03/09/20 09:24 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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Richie Cat Offline
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So what MAP is saying, vent the engine bay.


83 SC, 355 w/TPI
#1065352 - 03/10/20 08:48 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: upflying]  
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axld Offline
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lakeland,fl
upflying, well I had my IAT in my CAI ( custom built, from TB -90 in front and across to driver side, then 90 down an I cut a 4'' hole in the area that used to house the vac. canister to run down and out and 90 under the fender well, then the air filter) in the straightest section under the hood and it would sky rocket when in traffic and not recover well when moving. My engine coolant temps run on the high side also when idling . Open the hood and I could fry eggs in there. lol. SO I guess I will start with a cowl hood .


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065353 - 03/10/20 08:51 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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axld Offline
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axld  Offline
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lakeland,fl
MAP, I agree . suggestion's on more venting?


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065360 - 03/10/20 02:32 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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upflying Offline
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upflying  Offline
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Reno, NV
Originally Posted by axld
upflying, well I had my IAT in my CAI ( custom built, from TB -90 in front and across to driver side, then 90 down an I cut a 4'' hole in the area that used to house the vac. canister to run down and out and 90 under the fender well, then the air filter) in the straightest section under the hood and it would sky rocket when in traffic and not recover well when moving. My engine coolant temps run on the high side also when idling . Open the hood and I could fry eggs in there. lol. SO I guess I will start with a cowl hood .

My CAI routing sounds similar, I am checking my engine temps using my OBDII scanner, highway readings are 195 degrees, city driving is 206 and 210-212 when I am running my AC..
am running a stock hood, 4 row aluminum radiator and gen 4 Camaro Z28 dual fans.
IIRC, overheating on LS engines could be related to the steam line..it creates air pockets in the head if not vented properly.


86 MCSS Notchback coupe, LS3, 4L65E, QP 9", Eaton Truetrac, 4 wheel disc, column shift, Dakota Digital, silver with maroon bench interior

#1065387 - 03/12/20 12:47 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: upflying]  
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axld Offline
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lakeland,fl
My CAI routing sounds similar, I am checking my engine temps using my OBDII scanner, highway readings are 195 degrees, city driving is 206 and 210-212 when I am running my AC..
am running a stock hood, 4 row aluminum radiator and gen 4 Camaro Z28 dual fans.
IIRC, overheating on LS engines could be related to the steam line..it creates air pockets in the head if not vented properly. [/quote]


wow, that's about how mine does. I installed a 2 pass ls swap champion rad. and a Edlebrock 8896 pump and pulley( $ 460xx) 160 deg Lingenfilter thermostat and have the steam vent only on the front of the heads . Kinda scratching my head at the temps. A stock gen 3 runs at this temps , but mine is not stock. ( 425 whp , last dyno run and i have been tuning on it some since), i have a 4 point steam vent tube I might try next.

Last edited by axld; 03/12/20 12:48 AM.

86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065395 - 03/12/20 06:33 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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Travis Jones Offline
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Travis Jones  Offline
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Ferndale, MI
Originally Posted by axld
My CAI routing sounds similar, I am checking my engine temps using my OBDII scanner, highway readings are 195 degrees, city driving is 206 and 210-212 when I am running my AC..
am running a stock hood, 4 row aluminum radiator and gen 4 Camaro Z28 dual fans.
IIRC, overheating on LS engines could be related to the steam line..it creates air pockets in the head if not vented properly.



wow, that's about how mine does. I installed a 2 pass ls swap champion rad. and a Edlebrock 8896 pump and pulley( $ 460xx) 160 deg Lingenfilter thermostat and have the steam vent only on the front of the heads . Kinda scratching my head at the temps. A stock gen 3 runs at this temps , but mine is not stock. ( 425 whp , last dyno run and i have been tuning on it some since), i have a 4 point steam vent tube I might try next.[/quote]

Interesting, I run a 2015 cheap EBAY CAI, and my IAT's never get that high, unless I'm hot in staging at an autox, once i start moving the IAT's drop down to ambient. Mine just has one 90 degree and sits in front of the driver headlight box.

I've got an Iron LQ4, Summit Stage 3 Cam, headers and a 3 row champion rad, front steam ports, and dual fans from a Dodge Intrepid. Never gets above 210 degrees, makes 420 WHP / 410 tq, during driving it runs around 195, but that's where the thermostat is. I have a 160 degree to install when i swap over to some 799 heads.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1065415 - 03/14/20 01:24 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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spacemanspif Offline
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Swedesboro, NJ
I think there is something else going on here. With a low temp thermostat you shouldn’t see high temps while cruising and it should take a while to raise the temp when sitting. What fans are you running and what is your on and off temp settings? Drain some coolant out of the radiator so you can see the top couple tubes through the filler cap. Then start the engine and get it up to temp. Once the thermostat opens you should see flow through the radiator. Rev up the engine and flow should increase. I’m wondering if you have a partially clogged radiator or a defective pump.

Cowl hoods are designed to draw air into the engine compartment at speed. The venting they do while sitting still is not their primary function. True hood vents or grand national fender vents would do better.


-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.671 @ 103.79
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1065635 - 03/23/20 09:00 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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axld Offline
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lakeland,fl
spacemanspif, to combat the high engine temp , 1, installed a 160* stat, then 2 , installed a champion ls swap dual pass rad . 3 , installed a Edlebrock victor series ( 8896 ) WP and pulley. I have dual fans that I was using with good success when I had a mild 5.3 in . cant exactly recall the off/on . 1st fan on 195/ off 185 ( I think) 2nd on 205/ off 196. I would have to look on my programmer to verify them , but I used hypertech recommended settings.


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065638 - 03/23/20 02:38 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Hunter79764  Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
With that setup, you should see ~190° at idle and 160° at cruise, and possibly 160° with ac on (if it was running long enough, or you come to a stop from the highway). The thermostat should set the temp pretty efficiently as long as you have air through the rad. with the fan set at 195°, your fan becomes your thermostat when you have naturally low airflow and it will try to maintain at that point.

All that said, if you are getting near 200 at cruise, there is an issue that needs correcting, either tune related, blocked hose, or steam port related. The two port vs 4 port isn't that big of a deal, but if you aren't fully purging it, or you don't have the steam port hooked up properly, it can be an issue. how is your steam port plumbed up?


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1065656 - 03/24/20 08:54 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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axld Offline
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axld  Offline
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lakeland,fl
Hunter79764, I have the 2 front steam ports going into my water pump spacer on pass side. I also was thinking about the tune. I started pulling timing at the different map pressures ( idle , cruise, ) with no luck . Even when the out side temps here in FL, where down in the 40's I still had high engine temps. It would recover a little bit faster once I got moving though. Thus the reason I was focusing on air flow and engine bay temps.


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065657 - 03/24/20 08:57 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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axld Offline
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axld  Offline
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lakeland,fl
BTW, when I had my 5.3 in I had 4 corner steam going into my upper rad hose.


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065659 - 03/24/20 02:28 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
And you made sure to pull any air out of the steam ports when filling? Just covering the basics.
Any chance you have a restriction somewhere? Chunk of slag in the radiator core possibly? maybe a hose separating and blocking some flow? I'm not sure how it might impact things, but do you have a proper heater bypass if you aren't running it through the stock core?
I'd try locking the fans on high and driving around in mixed conditions and see what you get. With good fans running, moderate to heavy driving, and a 160° T-stat, you should be running right around 160° if you have cool ambient temps.
If that fixes it, then the answer is the fan turn on points. Probably need something closer to 170° if I had to guess.
If it is still high, you can try to get it warmed up, then run some water over the radiator and see where the temp levels off at. If anything other than ~160° with water running on it, it's an issue with either not enough coolant flow or too much heat generation. If water fixes it, then that tells me the fan and/or radiator and/or airflow access isn't big enough.

Last bit that I'm sure you know is that a 195° coolant temp will allow the radiator to dump more heat than at 160°. Part of the reason LS engines seem to get away with stock coolant systems at elevated power levels is that you can reject lots of heat at the higher temps (as well as not making as much heat for a given power output), and by setting operating temps at close to 200°, you naturally reject heat with ambient airflow, then even more with electric fans, and consequently the needle doesn't budge. with the same hardware and a 160° stat, it may not hold 160° consistently, and the temp may creep up to 200° before finding a balance point. That area between 160 and 200+ is concerning (seeing the needle swing), but ultimately isn't much different than just bumping off of the 195 setpoint on a factory system. Not saying your issue isn't an issue (I'd expect your temps to match your tstat when it's 40 outside), but just something to keep in mind.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1065677 - 03/25/20 09:03 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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axld Offline
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axld  Offline
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lakeland,fl
yes I burped the system with a fill funnel ( at my buddies shop) . And added water wetter when I installed the new rad and water pump. I run a bypass curve hose on the heater ports on the WP, as down here in FL I get by with out a heater for now. I realize that a stock LS / Vortex engines run at 210* but these engine temps have me nervous . I haven't showed any knock codes even when I added 2* at WOT and did some test pulls. My biggest concern is being able to cool down between passes at the strip. I starting to lean toward a flow restriction as I can start the car@ dead cold and it will heat up till the first fan comes on quite quickly. Or maybe my $470. 00 hi flo water pump is pumping TOO much water and not dwelling in the rad long enough? Thanks for the feed back so far.


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065678 - 03/25/20 05:58 PM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
My opinion is that you can't have too much water flow until you get to the point that you are pumping more heat into the water with an overdriven pump than you are removing due to the increased flow rate, but I'm guessing that would mean your pump consuming 20+ hp over stock before you get to that point. Yes, you have less dwell time in the radiator, but you are sending it through more often so the net effect balances out. I'd love to see a real world scientific test of it, but I don't think it would end up making any difference. Kinda like paychecks, you can get paid once a week, twice a month, or monthly, but at the end of the year, your total income isn't much different minus a few technicalities, but sometimes getting a smaller check each week keeps the bills at bay when you are running on the edge.

If there isn't a restriction, then I'd be looking at the tune but I can't really help you much there, too many variables.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1065696 - 03/26/20 08:48 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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axld Offline
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axld  Offline
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lakeland,fl
Well just for chit and giggles I am going to remove the hood ( as we are in a drought right now ) and do some start up / driving around and just see what happens.


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam. FITECH ecu and harness.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. UMI rear shock tower brace. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . . SO FAR..............lol.
#1065697 - 03/26/20 09:45 AM Re: remove the radiator air box? [Re: axld]  
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Richie Cat Offline
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Richie Cat  Offline
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Lake Ronkonkoma, N.Y.
Just leave the hood open on just it's safety latch.


83 SC, 355 w/TPI

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