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#1064192 - 11/19/19 01:31 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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I changed a battery in a hybrid Escape and our parts department can't find anyone to take it without paying a lot of money. It still sits in the back of the parts department after at least two years. This is a 330 volt battery and I agree with Buick Runner. There's a real danger to the salvage yards and the customers taking the cars apart to "pick a part" .

#1064194 - 11/19/19 09:52 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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They are already in yards around the country, and functional used batteries are all over the resale market. Damaged/end of life batteries are definitely an issue, but a really good chunk of the ones out there now are ready to be re-purposed and reused other places.
I'm not sure if the entire Volt pack would be used in it's full "T" shaped configuration, but it might work in the existing transmission tunnel and under the rear seat, or possibly turned around with the majority in the trans tunnel and the cross part under hood, directly in front of the firewall. If the pack can be disassembled and used on cells, that should make it easier to place cells wherever needed for function, balance, and fit.
https://greentecauto.com/hybrid-bat...yUr0j-8kP-LQWPVcNyS0vSxjztRoCWTsQAvD_BwE


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1064198 - 11/20/19 12:53 AM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Working with high voltages obviously doesn't inhibit the OEM, and with the proper precautions, it shouldn't inhibit us either. I would argue that it isn't especially hard to learn this discipline and to be diligent about applying it: a quick search under "high voltage courses" comes back from Google with hundreds of online offerings. Furthermore, if high battery voltages were so unmanageable, then GM wouldn't be developing an eCrate package: just think of the field day for lawyers litigating electrocutions! I would venture based on my engineering background that no company in their right mind would sell such a product unless the probability of injury were well under 1ppm, based on a DFMEA mindset.

For disconnected HV batteries/capacitors, a slow forced discharge through a large resistance may be essential. Just check terminal voltage. All batteries and capacitors have a non-infinite equivalent shunt resistance that ensures that in the absence of a connection, the plates will eventually discharge. (The higher the capacitance, the lower this shunt resistance, so the smaller the time constant of discharge.)

I'm not trying to be dismissive of HV concerns, but just like fire, when treated correctly, it can be a good thing. Nevertheless if anyone here feels uncomfortable with it, then just desist. Or if you are ignorant of the topic, then at least get educated about it. But for this reason, however, I'm not going to sidetrack this thread into an Edison vs. Westinghouse/Tesla showdown about high voltages. Fair enough? We've been around this block several times already.

Thanks,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 11/20/19 01:00 AM.
#1064201 - 11/20/19 06:43 AM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Don't forget you need a few special tools when playing with these HV cars.

https://service.teslamotors.com/sit...lectrial_Safety_Hook_Requirements_R1.pdf

I work on some of these new fangled washing machines that run high voltage inverters for the DC motors in them. Gotta be smarter these days.
Bob

#1064202 - 11/20/19 08:15 AM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Don't forget you need a few special tools when playing with these HV cars.

https://service.teslamotors.com/sit...lectrial_Safety_Hook_Requirements_R1.pdf

I work on some of these new fangled washing machines that run high voltage inverters for the DC motors in them. Gotta be smarter these days.
Bob


Agreed. Many gearheads and hotrodders are pretty used to just going roughshode at their cars with very little to no knowledge of science, physics, or legality. Those days are nearly over, and people will need extensive education to work on the powertrains of the future. Hell, programing and coding will be more important to work on future cars than knowing how to take a physical machine apart and back together.

I don't mean to derail this highly interesting thread, but I do have concerns with EVs from researching information about them. Good salesmen must be open to customer concerns. That way they can discover unmet customer needs, address those needs, and improve the selling offer. In other words, complaints are valuable intel for improving products and services. There are reasons why electric cars have been tried off and on for 100 years now.

If the main goal for an EV conversion is for a race track car, then why bother with an onboard battery at all? Race tracks could be electrified which would greatly reduce weight. Of course that would mean such cars would to be hauled there, but that is generally done with track cars already. Perhaps this may be done to roads as well. Base models with no onboard power source that can only travel on electrified roads. More expensive EVs could have batteries or powercells to travel outside of power grids.

Last edited by Buick Runner; 11/20/19 08:34 AM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1064205 - 11/20/19 07:40 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Hi Folks,

Good contributions! Bob, the "grounding hook" seems a bit original in terms of shape, but otherwise what's shown is very standard fare for HV stuff. Buick and Bob bring up good points that all reading here should heed: if you're going to go EV, you'll be dealing with high voltages, so educate yourself on how to do this safely. Just to be clear, I would share here exactly what I tell myself: you do this at your own risk. I cannot, and will not, be held liable for any ill effects of applying the ideas in this thread.

Electrification of roads: the biggest challenge is how to transmit the electrical power from the grid to the car. You either need some kind of bulky sliding contact (think electrified trolley cars with overhead cables,) or you need to do it by Faraday's law of induction, which is how smartphones and such are recharged without attaching cables. Problem is, the enormous E and B fields required would be sources of E-M radiation to the outside world, and dangerous to people and ferromagnetic materials that would happen to be nearby. Example: if you want 500 hp of motor power, then you probably need at least 1MW of E-M power transmission, which is triple the power of the nation's most powerful FM station. (If Tesla were alive today, he'd say "No problem"!)

As a compromise solution, you'd probably keep a smallish battery in the vehicle to provide short-term bursts of power to the motor as needed, and use road electrification to provide low-power, long-term (20hp?) charging for that battery. Problem is the road system: it will probably take decades of time and many billions of dollars before this becomes widespread.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 11/20/19 07:59 PM.
#1064207 - 11/20/19 09:23 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Back when I was a kid living in Pittsburgh we rode the trolleys, street car everywhere. Well almost everywhere, you were at the mercy of the tracks and the overhead power supply. You did a lot of walking to get to the tracks.
With the infrastructure being in a state of disrepair that it is, especially here in the Rustbelt NE can't see anytime in the future that we'll be running slot cars on the street.

Couple problem I see with charging EV. In the inner city people live in very narrow properties. Their cars are wider than their homes, they park blocks away sometimes and carry groceries to the abode. Charging your EV in front of your house just won't happen.
And if everyone is driving EVs does that mean every place will have charging stations for free like it is in some schools, offices now. Don't think so, there will be a fee. Another point is i believe EVs are just a temporary thing, fusion is the future, Back to the Future.

Ev's are rage now, and I get it. Would like to own a Tesla P and stop dumping loads of money into a lousy mpg van.
Bob

#1064224 - 11/21/19 08:01 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Hi Bob,

Yes, about the infrastructure, I'm hardly holding my breath. If Elon Musk can't make it happen, then our odds of succeeding as a tiny hot-rodding community is zero. Tesla would have used direct E-M radiation to transmit energy, but this was in the days long before radio/TV/internet/microwave and pacemakers. Morse code and telegraph were about the extent of E-M usage back then. Fusion is the future? It would have to be the cold variety, and most physicists today agree that can't happen. A few decades back someone got the Nobel prize for theorizing it, but one of our physicists, upon carefully reviewing his calculations, found a critical error.

So, for now, it's EV, and the car carries all the energy it needs.

Back to the immediate topic: about EV safety: it will be most interesting to see the compromises GM makes to create an e-Crate package. Obviously they won't require customers to get training before installing/using it; that would be too big a hassle for a product they hope to turn a profit from. So we can deduce that the package will be maximally sealed and plug-and-play.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 11/21/19 08:09 PM.
#1064264 - 11/24/19 02:37 AM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Folks!

I don't know why I didn't put two and two together before, but the news of the 9-sec eCOPO Camaro a few months back probably has everything to do with the eCrate package supposedly in the works from GM performance. After all, if they can put a 700hp electric drivetrain in a Camaro, then why not an MCSS? As I've said before, electric drivetrains offer greater connective flexibility than ICE-based drivetrains, so there's a high probability that such a drivetrain could be adapted to many different chassis.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/29/chev...conversion-running-a-9-sec-quarter-mile/

Some of this is so noteworthy that I think a section from this article is worth quoting here:

Quote
This wasn’t a 100% professional effort…

"Chevrolet partnered with Hancock and Lane Racing not only for the team’s success in NHRA drag racing, but its involvement with Patrick McCue, the driving force behind the record-holding “Shock and Awe” electric drag racing car, and his Seattle-area Bothell High School automotive technology program. More than a dozen students participated in the development and assembly of the electrified drag car, with the racing team’s assistance."

How do you get to 800 Volts when the Chevy Bolt/Volt and even Tesla is working with 400 Volt designs?

"The electric motor is based on a pair of BorgWarner HVH 250-150 motor assemblies, each generating 300 lb.-ft. of torque, and replaces the gas engine. It is connected to a conventional, racing-prepared “Turbo 400” automatic transmission, which channels the motor’s torque to the same solid rear axle used in the production COPO Camaro race cars."

More importantly and interestingly for me, the 800V allows for faster charging times like we’ve seen with the Porsche Taycan. At the track being able to recharge is even more important than normal on the road use however, GM hinted it might incorporate some of this technology in its future EVs – which would be welcomed.


It looks like our guesses were almost certainly correct: electric motor(s) in the front, then a stout THM400 transmission sans torque converter (my guess is that they would bolt into our chassis in the very same three locations that the current motor/tranny assembly does,) then a stout driveshaft, then a stout rear just as we might use for any other stout motor: ICE, EV, or otherwise. The center of mass of this assembly is farther forward than I would like, but I would maximally compensate by locating the battery pack as far rearward as possible. Another option might be to use two Gear Vendors overdrive units in series as the transmission, connected to a short propeller shaft in the back using two CV joints. The nice thing about the GV units is that are diametrically compact, so they could fit farther rearward in the driveshaft tunnel.

Exciting to say the least!

Best,
MAP


Last edited by MAP; 11/24/19 03:03 AM.
#1064267 - 11/24/19 09:00 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Links concerning the HVH 250 series of electric motor cited in the article:

https://www.borgwarner.com/technologies/electric-drive-motors/hvh-series-electric-motor

https://evwest.com/support/remy250.pdf

From these it's not clear whether the OEM is Remy or Borg Warner, but either one is thoroughly proven. The Remy version, dating from the days of Delco-Remy, might explain why GM chose this brand for the eCOPO Camaro. Hint!

Quick comments:

1. The motors are stackable in series = flexibiilty of torque and power. If the eCOPO Camaro stacked two, there's no reason why three couldn't be stacked, for instance.
2. The motors have an OD of roughly 20", so they'll have to go either in the engine bay or in the trunk. Sigh.
3. The large motor OD comes with a short length, thankfully. Each motor is only 7.1" long.
4. Each motor weighs about 95 lb, so a big-block worth of weight would correspond to about 7 of these electric motors, in which case we'd be looking at about 2,400hp and 2,100lb-ft of torque. Who said EVs are just for the environment?(!!)
5. The motors require cooling, despite the fact that each one runs at a maximum efficiency of about 95%. Comparing WOT figures, a typical hotrod motor runs at about 25-30% efficiency. So 700hp at the crank means about 1,800hp of thermal power is lost to the atmosphere. If we assume our electric motors run at about 90% average efficiency, then 700hp would mean about 80hp of thermal power loss, or about 4% of our hypothetical big block. By comparison it's easy to see that the cooling system for our EV conversion would be quite modest relative to our big-block. In fact, it would be modest even compared to that needed for a low-output 4-cylinder economy ICE motor.

Speaking of that second link above, "EVwest" has been turning up a lot in recent EV news. I have zero knowledge of them, but their website contains a trove of interesting materials:

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php

Enjoy,
MAP

PS: Can you see why I have every intention that my next hotrod project be electric?

Last edited by MAP; 11/24/19 10:57 PM.
#1064271 - 11/25/19 07:07 AM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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I would not be surprised if GM sells its electric motor coversion crates with an install service. That they may only ship them to authorized installers, not to consumers for DIY installs. Plus it would allow GM to increase profit margins besides covering liability concerns.

The greater power and torque of electric motors will pose a issue with older car conversions. Most cars are not built with unlimited capacity to withsand stress from high HP and torque. A stock G body in mint condition with all the factory bracing can only take 400 hp.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1064272 - 11/25/19 08:01 AM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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I agree about the need to strengthen/stiffen our A/G bodies, and that's true even with a low-output motor. Something approaching four figures of TQ and HP in British units, no matter the nature of the prime mover, will require careful engineering. Most of what I've written about converting the A/G body to a unibody platform to improve handling and NVH would have the main effect of increasing its torsional rigidity about its longitudinal axis, which is the very thing needed for a high-output motor as well.

Hopefully, GM will offer scalable packages (motors mechanically in series, battery packs electrically in parallel) so output and driving range can be scaled as desired.

#1064275 - 11/25/19 03:19 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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I've never wanted a truck and I've never wanted a tesla, but I really do want a Tesla Cybertruck. It's like a space el camino that seats 5 and does 0-60 in 3 seconds.

As an 80's kid this was the car of the future.


Justin
1986 Black SS
Upgrades: 350 L05 - Hooker Longtubes - FlowMaster True Dual 2.5" - Electric Cutouts - Electric Fans - Transcooler - Proforged Steering Kit - Astro Shaft - AR62 OUTLAW II Wheels - Energy Suspension Bushings - Bitflipper Chip - 87 ECM - Moog Springs and Ball Joints - Bilstein Shocks - Bucket Seats
#1064283 - 11/26/19 03:46 AM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Hi Witness,

That's 0-60 in 2.9 seconds (top-of-the-line triple-motor version) in a truck that weighs 6,000 lb. If we made no other changes but reduced weight to about 3,500 lb, and assuming we could maintain traction (which we probably couldn't without slicks,) then 2.9 seconds would become 2.21 seconds. I know people will say, "You can't get an MCSS with a battery pack down to 3,500lb." And I would say, "Sure you can; just make the battery pack small." And the rejoinder would be, "Then range would be unduly restricted." But "unduly" is in the eye of the beholder. I would keep range short since I wouldn't take this car on any long trips, plus battery technology is evolving so rapidly that I wouldn't want to sink a heavy investment (pun intended) into a big battery pack with today's technology.

To put 0-60 in 2.21 sec (theoretically) in further perspective, assuming constant acceleration, that would be a launch of 1.24g and 60mph would come at the end of 97 feet. 60 ft would pass in 1.74 sec. I for one wouldn't complain.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 11/26/19 04:03 AM.
#1064305 - 11/27/19 06:00 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Hi Folks,

OK, I can't resist this. It's one thing to talk about theory endlessly; it's another to actually see the theory in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7UhFqIOUgA

"Tesla Cybertruck pulls Ford F150 uphill"

Best,
MAP

PS: My opinion only: that cybertruck has to be one of the deliberately ugliest pieces of rolling hardware ever envisioned. And I thought NIssan had that market cornered.


Last edited by MAP; 11/27/19 06:33 PM.
#1064316 - 11/28/19 11:43 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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About that last video: a contest of pulling power has been used over centuries, even over millennia, to demonstrate superiority of thrust of the new over the old. I wonder whether the Tesla folk are fully cognizant of this. I'm thinking back to 1848/49, for example, when ship propulsion by propeller versus by paddlewheel was contested in exactly the same way: two vessels, two different methods of propulsion, same steam engines developing 400hp each, connected stern-to-stern with a heavy mooring line between the two. And yes, the propeller won, the propeller-driven vessel besting the paddlewheeler by pulling the paddlewheeler astern at 2.8 knots in one account, and 1.46 knots in another.

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/3/198/167/py0944.jpg

Anyway! Back to EVs.

Last edited by MAP; 11/28/19 11:52 PM.
#1064363 - 12/04/19 09:31 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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I thought the tug o war was BS, 4 wheel traction and superior weight distribution vs the unloaded RWD. A PR stunt.
Try it vs a 4WD with some weight over the wheels


Justin
1986 Black SS
Upgrades: 350 L05 - Hooker Longtubes - FlowMaster True Dual 2.5" - Electric Cutouts - Electric Fans - Transcooler - Proforged Steering Kit - Astro Shaft - AR62 OUTLAW II Wheels - Energy Suspension Bushings - Bitflipper Chip - 87 ECM - Moog Springs and Ball Joints - Bilstein Shocks - Bucket Seats
#1064367 - 12/05/19 01:32 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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#1064369 - 12/05/19 04:58 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Speaking as a physicist, of course, we can pick this apart with all kinds of qualifications. At the end of the day, we're still talking about the maximum tractive force that the drivetrain can deliver to the ground, and the Cybertruck wins. The video illustrates this powerfully and in a manner that's instantly relatable, unlike my talking here with all kinds of numbers and theory. So the message is fundamentally valid.

Let's not forget that the point here is not to talk-up Tesla or talk-down Ford; the point here is to show that EVs have evolved from the province of the tree-huggers to the realm of true performance, and they deserve attention for those wanting a better alternative to ICEs for our MCSSs.

Remember the name of the thread: "High nines from zero liters (0 CID)", not, "Lower carbon emissions from zero liters (0CID)".

Last edited by MAP; 12/05/19 05:11 PM.
#1064370 - 12/05/19 04:59 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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In the vid, you can see that the DMC 12, I mean the cyber truck has larger wheels than the F150, giving it a leverage advantage. Elon is a guy I don't trust.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1064371 - 12/05/19 05:07 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Correction: larger wheels actually give the Cybertruck a disadvantage, not an advantage.

I think we're continuing to miss the point. Forget people. Forget marketing. Forget politics. This is about physics. Buick, you probably didn't have the time to read my last post, which hit only a minute after yours.

Last edited by MAP; 12/05/19 05:14 PM.
#1064378 - 12/06/19 04:01 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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The Tesla stunt was apples and oranges, but still illustrates the point. The Tesla can likely pull like a 3/4 ton diesel, run like a tuned GMC Syclone, and get MPG (equivalents) like... I dunno, a diesel Rabbit Pickup from the 80's? I'm running out of comparisons here... Any one of those might be able to put up a fight in one category, but the Tesla takes it in the other 2 easily.

Once we throw in looks, however, the scales may tip, but that is subjective so I'll leave out the fact that it looks like a Delorean/ElCamino love child designed in the 80's as the trucks we would be driving in 2020...

Brutal performance though, and more future junkyard parts I might play with one day.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1064380 - 12/06/19 05:22 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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As far as going to a junk yard and pulling all the parts to make a conversion work that's going to be a lot harder then most people think. I'm not saying it can't be done,but there's a lot of modules that need to "talk" to each other (and with no faults) to even get the thing to power up let alone drive. For just a example, a Focus Electric has 24 modules on two hs-can,1 ms-can and one I-can networks. Now a electric conversion kit from GM is going to be a lot more user friendly as far as installing it in a car like ours. When you drive a electric or hybrid car (that's running on the electric side) and step on the pedal, you can really feel the power in the seat of your pants. Installing a conversion kit from GM in a Monte SS would be really cool. I guess what I'm saying is taking parts from a donor and making it work is going to be a lot harder than a LS swap. You would have to grab more that just the battery pack and traction motor at least until someone writes the software to over ride the factory to make it a more "stand alone" system.

Last edited by zelm86ss; 12/06/19 06:28 PM.
#1064383 - 12/06/19 06:42 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
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Yuma, AZ
I think Zelm86ss makes a solid point. In my once-in-a-while reading over at diyelectricar.com, I see hobbyists posting all the time about, "How do I make component X talk with component Y?" all the time. Or, "I got this great assembly out of a wrecked (something), but I can't get it to work because of (something). Any pointers?" But if we can strip assemblies down to bare batteries and bare motors, assuming such a thing can be done, and build back up from there in a cost-effective manner, then that may present a path forward.

I agree a kit from GM would have to be much more user-friendly, but it may have modest power output so that buyers don't wind up twisting their cars into pretzels due to the prodigious torque. I only hope that GM makes their e-crate packages scalable in some way, so those that want 800hp can get it. What's quite clear with the information I have is that 800hp in an electric motor is probably going to be faster than 800hp from an ICE if the car has the requisite traction, because peak torque in an electric motor is at 0 rpm (hence no torque converter.)

The great thing I see about electric is how high output converges with great road-handling and with great economy, as you (2/3) said, Hunter: assuming just a single axle is driven, then make that the rear, and concentrate the car's weight there too. With an ICE, this approach is impossible because more output, which generally means more weight, has to go on the wrong end of the car.

Best,
MAP


Last edited by MAP; 12/06/19 07:32 PM.
#1064384 - 12/06/19 08:06 PM Re: High nine's from zero liters (0 CID) [Re: MAP]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,119
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,119
Yuma, AZ
Hi Folks,

I saw this surprising statement by Mark Reuss (president of GM) yesterday:

"We believe in an all-electric future with safer, cleaner and easier transportation. With the advancements in EV, there is no doubt we are on the cusp of an auto revolution. Read more from our President, Mark Reuss, as he breaks down the barriers to making electric cars mainstream: s.gm.com/m8bjy"

Mr. Reuss goes on to say that he expects EVs will achieve parity with ICE vehicles within a decade, and that evolving battery technology and the availability of public charging stations will be key.

Why do I share this link here? Because we, just like the OEMs, want low battery cost, volume, and weight in relation to stored energy. The worldwide R&D investment in battery technology is truly staggering: many billions of dollars per year, so I believe the needle will shift rapidly in favor of electric as time passes. (I'm honestly pleased to be hearing about GM offering an e-crate package in the near future. I thought it was still a number of years away.)

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 12/06/19 08:06 PM.
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