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#1062203 - 06/06/19 01:24 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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I just set up my mcleod in the 96 SS Camaro. The thing I didn't notice until then was the fork type is actually a street twin. My LSx with the hydraulic set up without the fork is the RST. The gap on the fork type, first disc fly wheel side to the separator plate has a tight tolerance .020 - .025 gap. If that's what you have Bob the directions have two installation descriptions on two different installation sheets " at least mine did". One said to hand tighten the other torqued to 35 foot pounds. I called and the proper way is torqued and it makes a difference. It actually had a larger gap verses hand tight as it squares it up better with the torque. I noticed after the after reading the other docs and had to go back and remove three .010 shim washers. The washer shim packs they had sent with my setup were spot on, needing no additional shims.

Regards,
Ron

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/06/19 01:26 AM.

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#1062210 - 06/06/19 06:51 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Ron here's the RST I'll be installing. Will reread the instruction again but think it was pretty straight forward install in a SBC Gen 1. Most likely will be talking to McLeod very soon, throwout advice and may need to have another billet wheel made by them. Nobody sells a wheel that fits my needs, billet, 20lb, 153, 2 piece seal, internal balanced. Mcleod made the last one for me. If the flywheel ring gear is worn again will buy a new flywheel. Had the ring gear replaced the last time I did a clutch, actually it was the reason to do a clutch the last time. By the time I buy a gear, install it and cut the old wheel I'm close to a new price.
https://www.mcleodracing.com/index.php/clutch-kits/rst-twin-disc/rst-twin-disc-112108.html
Thanks for the heads up.

Daughter rear calipers are done, Tues evening replaced the left ABC harness which didn't cure the ABS problem. Harness failure is a common problem, have done both sides now on the wife's 02 SS and now the GTP both sides. Will stop by my local guys shop and scan the ABS codes. One of the front hubs is probably the culprit now. Both front hubs on the 02 have also been replaced. Gotta love technology.

The RST install was supposed to start this past Sun. As of Weds night the console, boot and shifter are out of the car, dist cap removed. 20 ton jackstands are under the #2 bushing area, stands under the rear, 23" clearance from the frame side rails to the floor. This should be enough room to roll the trans out from under the car on the trans jack. Will do a test jack fit tomorrow before the bolts start to be fly.
Pulled the T56 drain plug and turned out the lights.

The goal is to be looking at the freeze plugs by Fri afternoon. Need to get any new or refinished parts dropped Mon morning at the latest. Next week will need to make a lot of progress on the swap, Carlisle is June 22.
Bob

#1062220 - 06/06/19 04:39 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Get after it!!! laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062235 - 06/07/19 12:06 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Yes it's the exact same thing I have but mine has the throw out and a billet flywheel.They called it a street twin for some reason on the phone? I'll snap a pic of mine on the engine this weekend before I install it in the car. This is the second car I have bought one for, The're nice IMO.

As fare as it being straight forward yes. But if you have two different instruction sheets with a discrepancy you might scratch your head as I did... laugh

Regards,
Ron.

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/07/19 12:10 AM.

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#1062237 - 06/07/19 06:05 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Wow, got a lot done today. The freeze plugs, galley plugs and cam plugs on the back of the engine aren't leaking. The removing of a hundred bolts and screws to inspect the freeze plugs is done. So much for a leaking freeze plugs back there, the reason to install the RST was partially driven by finding a leaking plug.

The other reason to do the RST was what I thought was a throwout bearing noise. An inspection the old disc and flywheel showed the disc metal edge was just touching the flywheel at it outer edge. That was the noise I was hearing, flywheel has a light scratch that should be removed when resurfaced. The disc pucks were worn thin on the inner and outer edges and thicker in the center, odd.That disc was very aggressive, a 700 lb ft, ceramic, installed 2011, only about 10K miles. Was surprised by that much wear on the disc and it never let on it was going to expire soon.

Mostly all good news today.

The 23" floor to lower frame rail height was just enough, although I had to roll out the trans near the rear tire. But it came out without a hitch.

The bearing retainer for the throwout bearing that was hard chromed and installed with this last clutch still looks great, if anything polished now, no sign of wear through. So that can be reinstalled after a paint touch up. That was the third retainer i used on this car, first two got chewed up by the throwout's hardened steel.

A lot of clutch dust in the Lakewood. It took some scraping before a washing to clean that mess. Lakewood fork, pivot, and even the throwout bearing was ok, not noisy. Couldn't remove the almost 20 pound adapter plate bolted to the Lakewood from under the car, bolts froze. So pulled both together, yikes, heavier than i remember. Taking the scale from the house to the shop tomorrow to get accurate weights on the five components going back in. But i know everything is heavy. Except the flywheel, shops scale said 18 lb.

Flywheel ring gear is good, surface should clean up nice, the new RST disc is smaller. Should find time tomorrow to drop off the wheel to resurface it.

Block saver plate, scattershield, adapter plate, fork and retainer all have finished coat of paint on one side. Tomorrow should be able to get the opposite sides done.Should give me a three day dry time before reinstall. For years Rustoleum Prof HP Enamel has been used with great success, easy to spray with 15 min recoat, dries hard and is durable, retains it's shine. Sounds like a commercial.

All 100 of the bolts and screws are prepped. They were painted years ago, just don't think I have the ambition to do them again.

Yep, trans input shaft seal has been seeping, Mobil 1 ATF finds any place it can to escape. The ATF on the lower edge of the shield came from there. Will be pulling the front off the trans to change that seal. Will be able to do that right on the trans jack. Where the vent pipe enter the trans it was a little wet, don't think there is a quick fix for that. It was always a little loose since new. Will clean up the area and forget it.

Pilot bearing still looks but will get a new one just because I'm there. Looking at the nose of the input shaft the wear patter is very good, correct depth into the pilot bushing. Had switch to the extended Speedway bushing this last clutch. Previously with a standard bushing was only getting about 60% contact. So another plus for this install.
Input shaft splines still very nice, and straight. Hanlon told me my input shaft is very scarce, don't use it up. Another reason to go RST, the slicks go bye bye, no more QTP at the track.

Decided to refinish the 18 lb adapter plate instead making a new one from alum. The potential time delay is one thing, the overall cost even with me doing all the drilling and tapping, but mostly it's the possibility of misalignment. There are 16 holes based off the center 3" hole. Alignment of the input shaft/pilot/bell/bearing retainer/trans is as good as it can get right now. I can only see delays going for aluminum. Used the flap dics lightly to clean up the "soiled" areas and mating areas, then palm sanded them. Two coats of black each side, done.

Same deal with scattershield and blocksaver plate, prepped and painted one side. Was going to powdercoat but two reasons for not doing that , turnover time and mostly the fact all the old paint would need to come off both, again time and more expense. The old paint lasted for more than a decade on this car, 10 more make me 78, I'll worry about it then.

So kicked some butt today, looking at a test drive this time next week. A few small things to buy yet but all in all moving right along.
Bob



Last edited by mmc427ss; 06/07/19 06:38 AM.
#1062238 - 06/07/19 10:20 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Freiburger would be proud Bob.


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#1062241 - 06/07/19 12:42 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Bob, don't you ever sleep?

Every flywheel I had resurfaced has resulted in a chattering clutch. Every original flywheel that I just sanded and reused never resulted in a chattering clutch. I don't think the machine shops are using good tolerances for setting up their machines. I hope you have better luck with your resurfaced flywheel than I ever have.

Based on the wear you described, does your clutch require your flywheel have a tapered surface rather than a flat surface?

If the vent is sandwiched between the tail and main case, clean the area well and smear a light bead of Ultra Black (with a wet finger tip) around the vent base. On T5s, I never trusted the o-ring and always added Ultra Black to the o-ring area. In your case, you are not going to disassemble to fix the vent, so a surface coat should work.

Is Bob Hanlon implying that you can't buy a replacement input shaft for your transmission? If so, that sucks. I would have thought it might be the same as the LT1 or LS input shaft.

Marc

#1062245 - 06/07/19 10:59 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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I have a couple pics of mine. I plan to install the trans and Hurst short throw in the morning tomorrow along with the Kooks long tubes. Then put the entire frame, engine and trans back in the car real quick. I think I only need a few hours to do it all. I love installing complete packages in from the bottom, it's so easy. This is actually a street twin that has the 153 tooth flywheel as a package. It's good for 1200 hp with a street friendly release. When I compare it to the RST I don't see any real difference, its just the predecessor I guess.

And that 500 dollar bell housing is something you talked me into Bob!

And I already snapped the throw out bearing retainer in all three retainers. laugh

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/07/19 11:23 PM.

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#1062246 - 06/08/19 04:22 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Ron, nice pics. When at S&W last week was talking to their engineer guy, he said he had an 04 Cobra/T56 and a Quick Time bell. I know both the lakewood and Quick Time weight a lot. Today weighed all the pieces to my pie. When I compare them to an old school alum bell like the old 606 for the G-body it's no wonder I run a 650 front spring. Lakewood shield, blocksaver plate, adapter plate and the 22 bolts to install all that, it's a whooping 57 lbs. Add in the Dart Little M block at another +40 lb and that's an extra hundred pounds up front. The 1/2" thick adapter plate is 18 lb by itself, in alum it would be about 6-7, a 10lb savings. In the real world that 10 means nothing, besides the old plate is all pretty again and ready for the next 10 years.

Marc, my T56 is a 2.97 1st, after market replacement for the 3rd gen F with T5 which had the canted trans install. The adapter plate sold with the trans mated both the canted or straight bell, drilled for either install. The plate is actually a well made piece. Back around the dawning of the new millennium, going 6 spd in a G-body started to take off. Problem was the choices weren't many, Richmond, LT1, LS, or aftermarket T56. Junkyard donors were scarce, Richmond expensive and a pricey external shifter, Delivered new to my door for $1980 with the adapter plate from Liberty was the logical choice, the aftermarket with the 2.97 1st and a .62. Both the LT and LS trans of those days was a 2.60 with a .5 6th gear. The exception to that rule would be the 1993 T56 into the 4th gen F which I think got the 2.97 1st.
The biggest reason to buy the A/M trans was the 5 and 6 ratios at .80 and .62. For the type of driving I do those ratio became useful when downshifting, not thinking about fuel economy the deep OD of the .50 would get you. The 2.97 and the 3.73 rear made the 1st gear more fun with old 305. Another old fact was the only other GM to get the 2.97 1st gear was the old LS1 ZO6 Vette.
The input shaft in my trans is one of those odd man out things, they don't make a replacement for it. Besides being the 2.97 ratio the input shaft is longer because of the 1/2" adapter plate and the old school bell used. Also the 2.97 A/F trans came with the lowest torque rating of most all T56 because of the weaker input shaft. Back almost two decades ago the A/F T56 was a very good choice for me. Today more and better trans options, just hard to do a brand new out of the crate T56 for the 2 grand I spent.

Removed the pilot bushing this afternoon via the grease method, a mess, didn't have a slice of bread handy. Removed bushing was worn very little and showed excellent contact with the input. New bushing headed to the freezer tomorrow.
All parts now painted up, even blew a coat on all the hardware, because I had some paint left in the bottom of one can.

Flywheel dropped off at Doug Meyers machine shop this morning, thinks .015 may clean it up,should be good when done, pickup Mon afternoon. Marc the flywheel face was, is, flat, not sure how it could be anything but flat. First time I've been to Meyers, will ask for a shop tour when I pick up the flywheel. Previous 1/2 dozen times i had a flywheel dressed was just down the street, real nice wet Blanchard grinder, owner passed away recently, shop now gone. So looking for another shop to fill that void. May be pulling the AFRs in the near future and getting a refresh done, the reason for a Meyers shop tour.
Thinking about the wear on the disc, being it only lasted 10K the friction material was very aggressive, hot and cold, wore quickly and deposited that on the inside of the bell. Heat dissipation in the center of the "pukes" may be better than the outer edges, the reason the tips wore more than the centers. Not an engineer, just know they wore oddly.

Ron, only familiar with what I've read about the evolution of the Mcleod twins. The Street Twin was the first version and build to handle a lot of torque. A car I know had the early twin and had floater plate issues, rattled, and over heating. Can't remember all the detail from 15 years ago. I think the RST and RXT are down sized Street twins because they built a to aggressive clutch for most guys needs. Choosing between the RST and RXT was easy, the only difference between the two is the disc friction material. The RST should get me away from that ON/OFF switch I just removed, but still rated at 700 lbft . Only downside I see is not supposed to be used with slicks. Not a problem, have made a hundred trips down the track and done trying to get that 11.99 slip of paper. If I really wanted to go that fast I'd put a 6 spd auto in the car and run mid 11's. Will give the Hoosier QTP away to someone who needs them. Street tire passes in the future. Long live the RST!!!.
Bob

#1062251 - 06/08/19 02:28 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Some components I didn't mention.
Weighted both clutches, the old Clutch Science 10 3/4" pressure plate and 10 1/2" disc was 22 1/2 lbs. Will net about 25 cents at the scrap yard.
The new RST was also 22 1/2 lbs complete.

The billet McLeod flywheel weighed in at 18 1/2 lb before resurfacing. When I bought it new I ordered a 20lb wheel. This will be it's third resurfacing, fortunately there is no signs of heat cracking, just abuse from the ceramix disc used on it. If I was to buy a new flywheel I would still go the 153 tooth 20 lb billet route. Don't need a 30 pounder for this car and the really lightweight flywheels in the 12 lb range wouldn't be as engagement friendly as the slightly heavier wheel.
Bob

#1062267 - 06/09/19 03:28 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Dang I better step it up or you'll be back on the road before me!! Nice work Bob... Glad it all looked good.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062273 - 06/09/19 05:10 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Just ordered from Summit both the throwout bearings McLeod sells for my clutch. One is the standard short and the other the three position adjustable. Previously had used the short three times and think that is what I will use again. The bell does have the adj fork pivot which was set up for the short throwout and rechecked each time. This is the third time the flywheel has been cut moving the pressure plate away from the throwout bearing, maybe moving .060" total, not much, but 1/16". Having both throwouts will let me dial in the fork angle again via the bearing and pivot. The bearing I don't use I will return to Summit.

Always the question come up about what lubes to use where on a stick install. I found opinions are like "everyone has one",. all over the place.
The extended pilot bushing/input shaft nose will just get a very light coat of very light weight oil to aid install.
The input/disc splines I've used thin Nerver-seez, a light coating to prevent corrosion. It doesn't fly off, allows the disc to move the little bit it needs to, still looked good after the junk the old clutch dumped there. What others say about spline lubing is anything from. dry, nothing goes on at all, Lubriplate, 70% Moly, wheel bearing grease, special car manufacture blends, McLeod says Dry Graphite Spray. Even the clutch venders can't agree on what to use.

The throwout bearing slides on the retainer, have used a light coating of blue high temp synthetic wheel bearing grease there and at the fork pivot. Not sure if I have a better solution for that sitting on the shelf. It's worked well in the past. The hard chromed retainer held up very well to the hardened throwout bearing after 7 years of rowing a 6 sp. It doesn't get very dusty, or wet at the throwout bearing area, the teardown showed that, old grease still good. So probably use the old standby blue grease.

I knew i saw this info a long time ago. How to set up a fork on a mechanical linkage setup. Sorry about the pony car link but McLeod doesn't have a link to that pdf on their website.
https://www.cjponyparts.com/skin/frontend/cj-pony/default/images/install-pdf/install_mcleod1.pdf


Also ordered from Summit a set of Fel Pro 1205 and a set of Cometic C5528-060 intake gaskets from Summit. It looks like the intake needs to come off again. Have used three sets of 1205s now on this engine. Once tried the 1205 S4 steel core and didn't have good impressions because they are harder than the 1205. The intake is port matched to the AFR head, the 1205s need to be trimmed at the top of the port to the blue line for a proper match. The amount of material left above the port of the manifold after port matching was to thin, not a lot of gasket contact. The outside corners of the 1205 push out over time, a potential vac leak at a bad place. The worst area was #5-7, a while ago about 3/16" alum was added to the top of the intake there, milled, fixed the push there. Now #2-4 shows a problem brewing. Just another one of those should, could have done all 4 areas when I just did the one. Gotta love hindsight.
So far the plugs in #2-4 look good, engine runs well, odd lean cruise issue though,

Didn't work on the car today. Instead the wife and I watched the 10 year old grandson strike out 6 of 7 batters the last two inning to win the championship game. Today was a good, happy day.
Bob

#1062320 - 06/11/19 07:29 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Flywheel picked up at Doug Meyer's shop today. Got the tour of his old school shop, been in business for 47 years, engine work only, he can do everything but cut a crank, A huge collection of engine parts, everywhere, does a lot of roundy-round engines. Got to sit with him for 15 min and talk about a few things, intake gaskets, pan gaskets, oils, getting my AFRs refreshed. Easy to talk to.

Leaving his shop I noticed a black SS with a very rusted hood sitting in his lot. Went back in and ask who's car. The piston guy said it was his. I have the original hood for my car sitting in my daughter's garage 15 years now. It was heading to the scrap yard very soon. Instead it will now reside on his SS, all he has to do is pick it up.

Pulled the front plate off the T56 tonight to replace the input shaft seal. Not a big deal, just a pain cleaning off all the old RTV I put there 15 years ago. With the trans sitting on the trans jack it came apart with only a little persuasion, no parts fell out. I was amazed at how clean the main case was inside. Further inspection through the case into the tailhousing you can see the large magnet which collects all the gear wear. WHAT IS THAT! Using a strong magnet stick I pulled out a synchro key. It came from the 4/3 is the front gear set, I can see there is only two of the three keys in it. 3rd gear has been behaving a little differently the past year or so. There is no way to reinstall the key without total disassembly. So the decision was made to reinstall the front plate and put the trans back in the car. Will then see at a later date if I pull the trans to fix 3/4.

Shortly after i installed the T56 (305 engine) the stock stamped steel keys broke in 3/4, a common problem back then. The trans would lock up in either 3rd or 4th because the broken key would wedge and not allow the sleeve to move when shifted. A call to Tremec tech it was said they knew nothing about broken keys and had no fix. The 4th Gen F forums were loaded with this problem. Fortunately I found a guy who was selling his own sourced solid keys for 1/2, 3/4. His friend at the old Borg Warner plant had an in to the parts bins and they came up with some slightly modified off the parts shelf replacements for the stamped keys. This was a few years before the aftermarket started selling solid keys for the T56. A set of his keys and key springs for 1/2 and 3/4, the steel 3/4 fork, a new 3/4 synchro assemble, and a 1/2 modified fork I installed back then, 2002. Guess I should be thankful that all stayed glued together this long.

Stopped at Bob Hanlon's also today to see if he had a fix for the vent tube leak on the T56. He has seen it and has remove the crimped on fitting and used a 90 degree pipe/barb fitting there. Tonight pulled the plate off there to access the back side of the stamped steel fitting they use. Cleaned up the fitting, hole, and area around the fitting and dropped red locktite there to try and lock the fitting to the hole. Will then use a small amount of RTV over the locktite tomorrow . The leak there wasn't bad at all, just a slightly wet area, but this engine/trans has had to many seepers over the years, just keep chasing them. I credit Mobil 1 10-30 oil and Mobil 1 AFT for all the leaks, it find any and all place to seep.

Throwout bearings should arrive tomorrow. Flywheel, clutch, bell with fork install next. May have the bell off once or twice to check fork angle. Made 3/8-16 x 2" studs to make installing the bell a little easier. Luckily i can sit on my butt, top of the head stuffed in the tunnel, to pickup that 50 lbs of bell and locate it on the back of the engine. hoping to only do it twice.
Bob

#1062376 - 06/13/19 04:44 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Blocksaver plate, flywheel and clutch installed. Ordered the throwout bearings Sat night from Summit, FedEx says it take four days by a wagon train from Tx to Pa, delivery Thurs. This slowed progress a little.

The RST black floater was a PITA to install. The bolts are a 3/8-16 with a long shoulder. The alum plate is drilled 3/8" with anodized holes, tight fitting, had to make an effort to pull the plate down evenly tightening each of the 6 bolts a little at a time. You just didn't throw it up on the flywheel and snug it down. Once torqued down to 25 one bolt at a time was removed, blue locktite, back to 25. After that another round of 25, then a round of 35, 35. Yep, I love my torque wrench, a old clicker i bought when I was kid, like 1970. When the 427 project was underway the wrench was sent out for re calibration. Have treated it like the fine tool it is ever since.

Next is install the 60 lbs of scattershied, adapter, fork, retainer and throwout bearing in with a couple bolts. Setting up the angle of the fork is important and needs to be checked. Many variables in play, flywheel, bell, blocksaver plate thickness. Position, height, of fingers on the pressure plate vary from clutch to clutch. As the disc wear the fingers move outward, this moves the throwout bearing back, the reason to adjust the pedal free play on a mech linkage car. The throwout bearing thickness can vary, some shorter than others, even the three position adj throwout makes it much longer. The shaft the throwout bearing slides on is only so long, when disc are new the throwout is forward on this shaft, as the disc wears the fingers move rearward, the throwout needs to move rearward on the shaft. A thick throwout bearing may correct fork angle when the clutch is new but as the throwout has to move rearward with disc wear it may run out of shaft length on the retainer.

The Lakewood has an adj height fork pivot installed so there is some leeway for adj there yet. Initially the fork angle, fork pivot adj was setup for the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch before the new engine went in. This RST now being the third clutch going in it's time to revisit all that again.
Just another one of those necessary thing to try and make right the first time.

One thing I really like about a mechanical linkage clutch is when setup correctly the stroke of the pedal is sweet. You get pedal feel from the fingers of the pressure plate when they get to the engagement position. Have driven a 1/2 dozen stick Gs over the years, didn't like the feel of any of the early hyd setups. even some of the new cars I've driven had that dead feeling, no feedback. Only exception to that was Bernie's car which I didn't drive, only sat in it and worked the pedal. Best pedal stroke, effort, of any hydraulic I've pushed.

May be doing an upgrade in daily driver's very soon. My 270K 95 AWD Astro isn't tired yet, just body decay getting the best of it. Going to a school auction, a much newer AWD Astro is going on the block. Have had pickup trucks, full size vans, refuse to drive a mini van, haven't seen an import that fits the bill, just hard to find a small van that can do what a loaded AWD Astro LS can do. Hoping it's one of those garage kept toys our public school systems have laying around.
Bob

#1062383 - 06/13/19 04:24 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Keep plugging away Bob... Meanwhile I'm enjoying the fresh ocean air blowing in off the Pacific in the Central Coast of California. Headed to Sonoma Raceway tomorrow...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062423 - 06/17/19 03:01 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Lance hopefully you had a nice cool week in CA.

Well the 86 is back on the ground again. Just need to reinstall the console with it's four different wire circuits in it. Adjusted the rear swaybar rate back to full soft again for street driving and rotated the tires while up on the stands.

After playing with the fork pivot height ended up moving it just a little forward to increase fork angle. When the initial Centerforce DF clutch went in 17 years ago it was set up for the recommended 4.750" block face to pivot stud top height and pedal travel, effort, and engagement was sweet. The second clutch installed used the same 10 3/4" pressure plate but a much more aggressive disc, an ON-OFF disc which I hated from day one. The travel, engagement were good with a little more static pressure plate rate using that 4.750" setup. The new RST is about 1/8" taller than either of those clutches, the billet flywheel has been cut three times now and is now much thinner than the standard .960" wheels. Decided to see if moving the pivot forward to 4.625" would be better. So removing the fork pivot which was red locktite in many moons ago required a small pipe wrench which buggered the ball end. Luckily a trip to the local speed shop and had a new stud to reinstall. Bought both the McLeod standard throwout bearing and their adjustable height bearing to see which would give me the best fork-throwout combo. Was not impress with the adjustable throwout, shortest length was to long, no grease groove in the inner bore, and it had tendency to bind on the bearing retainer. Ended up using the standard stock length McLeod throwout

The Lakewood bell/T56 adapter plate/throwout bearing retainer, throwout bearing and fork, 50 lbs total, are all installed as one unit before the trans with this aftermarket T56 install. On the first bell test fit the fork was left out. Looking through the fork hole in the bell the throwout could be slid forward to just touch the fingers of the pressure plate, a marker was used to mark that position of the bearing on the retainer. Pull the bell off, install fork and move throwout to the mark on the retainer and you can check the geometry of the fork, throwout and pivot. Not easy-pessy but a good way to help setup the fork pivot to get fork parallel to the rear plane of the engine block.

In the end the pivot was moved to the 4.625" depth about the max allowable due to only having 3 1/2 threads left to secure the pivot stud. The fork is parallel when touching the fingers. As the disc wear the fingers will move outward, rearward, an adjustment of the pedal freeplay will move the throwout rearward away from the fingers, the angle of the fork should get better as
this happens. Time will tell.
22 bolts for the Lakewood bell install done.
So goes another lesson in mechanical clutch linkage.

Installing the trans into the two disc and pilot bushing was a PITA. Using the plastic alignment tool to get things aligned is somewhat of a tedious job do to the slop in the plastic tool. Have used these plastic tool several times before on single disc clutches with no problems. McLeod, RAM and a few others now sell a billet alignment tool which precisely aligns the two (or more) disc to the pilot bushing. If there is a next time I will spend the 40 bucks to get one.
A trick I learned years ago is when you can't get the nose of the input into the pilot bushing when installing the trans you can have someone push the clutch pedal down to free up the disc. You just have to be sure the splines of the input are into the disc or the disc will drop. On the twin disc you need to be certain to have both discs into the spline of the input. After an hour of playing with the T56 trying to get it into the pilot I finally went that route. Bingo!

3 3/4 QT of that expensive Mobil 1 AFT poured down the shifter hole before bolting in the shifter.
Didn't install a bronze shifter bushing per "not needed" from Hanlon.

Tonight will finish the shifter lower boot, console and the rest of the parts removed for this project.
Test drive tomorrow if it isn't raining. One day ahead of schedule.
Bob


Last edited by mmc427ss; 06/17/19 05:44 PM.
#1062429 - 06/17/19 11:07 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Dec 2007
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SSLance Online content
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Good work Bob!!

I just got home, 278 unread emails and 10 large boxes of contact lenses to unpack, sort and pack back up precede my ability to button Barney back up for good. Soon though...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062430 - 06/17/19 11:34 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: May 2019
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T5montecarlo Offline
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T5montecarlo  Offline
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Lederach, PA
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
...no grease groove in the inner bore...
That is pretty poor quality; I am shocked such a bearing would have McLeod's name on it.



Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Installing the trans into the two disc and pilot bushing was a PITA. Using the plastic alignment tool to get things aligned is somewhat of a tedious job do to the slop in the plastic tool. Have used these plastic tool several times before on single disc clutches with no problems. McLeod, RAM and a few others now sell a billet alignment tool which precisely aligns the two (or more) disc to the pilot bushing. If there is a next time I will spend the 40 bucks to get one.
A trick I learned years ago is when you can't get the nose of the input into the pilot bushing when installing the trans you can have someone push the clutch pedal down to free up the disc. You just have to be sure the splines of the input are into the disc or the disc will drop. On the twin disc you need to be certain to have both discs into the spline of the input. After an hour of playing with the T56 trying to get it into the pilot I finally went that route. Bingo!
Is there slop in the spline of the dual disc plates? Why would the plastic tool work better on single disc clutches? I am not following.

#1062431 - 06/17/19 11:45 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Sep 2007
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Coxs Creek KY
I did mine rather quickly maybe a couple minutes. I used my steel alignment set Though.


Do it for yourself not the attention of others.
#1062442 - 06/19/19 06:37 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Mark on one of McLeod's videos he suggests that on a twin disc rotating the alignment tool in one direction to align the splines of the two disc so the drive or coast sides of both splines are aligned. It's not that the disc splines are sloppy, it's the plastic tool is a little sloppy.The reason everyone want's to sell you the billet tools. The billet tool doesn't sag when you hang the weight of two disc on it, get a true centering of the disc using it.

Finally drove the car out of the shop this afternoon, rain had stopped. About a mile up the road and back, readjust pedal for more freeplay. Then out for another quick drive up the road.

Initial impressions. Pedal effort is less than the last clutch and is easy to push. Pulling out in 1st gear and it's a little grabby. Other gears very smooth engagement. Downshifting is a little grabby, not used to that. Clutch pedal has a little chatter to it when cold, when hot is very smooth. While driving along pressing pedal to remove freeplay the pedal has a very light pulsation. Almost like the throwout is riding on pressure plate fingers that are high and low. Thinking this is a product of disc breakin, removing high spots off the four faces of the discs. Engagement is too high, to close to the top of the pedal travel. Will reduce some of the linkage ratios to allow less throwout travel relative to the pedal travel. When the 1st clutch went in this car the clutch pedal down rod hole was relocated 1/2" lower so the total pedal travel arc could be reduced from 6 1/2" to 5 1/2". A pedal stop was made to arrive at a 5 1/2" stroke. A feeler gauge was then used to set disc clearance at .035" at full depression of the pedal. A 3/4" hole drilled in the bell directly below the flywheel disc face allowed a .035"x12" feeler gauge to be used. This all worked out great on both old clutches. Now need to revisit this again. I neglected to check for ease of checking with that gauge before bell final install. May have to go back and enlarge that 3/4" hole rearward to be able to see, check gap on both disc. You never want to over disengage a diaphragm pressure plate, that can damage the pressure plate.

There is another hole in the G-body Z-bar arm on the fork side, 3/4" above the one I'm using. it was used by the factory to set up the original z-bar arm to fork length. Using that gauging hole for the fork rod will decrease fork travel 10% at the same pedal travel. The first effort to move the clutch engagement lower in the pedal stroke. Also can move to the original hole in the pedal which is another decrease in fork travel. This will be a trial and error looking for that sweet spot in pedal travel and where the clutch hooks up.

Got a little sidetracked tonight with an alternator on the car. A week before the RST install started had to drive the car late at night to get back home, daughter's car was in the bay getting rear brakes done. On that trip home the LED backlighting in the A/F gauge was dim, bright, dim, bright. Started to keep an eye on the volt gauge, it was 14.5, 12, 14.5, 12, all over the place. Tonight check alt output voltage just idling, 14.5, throw a load on it and after a short time voltage dropped to 12.5-13. The low miles 94 amp alt did this once before at Cecil County on me. Replaced the voltage reg and bearings and it was fine up till now.
Pulled alt off the engine tonight, disassembled it, what I found was the BAT stud is nutted to the diode pack, the nut and pack showed overheating, erosion and wasn't making good contact anymore. On a light amp load alt could keep up, under full load it got hot there and couldn't put out the amperage/voltage.
Would like to do an upgrade to a 140 12SI but that can't be done before Carlisle on Sat. Will visit my local NAPA in the morning to weigh my options. May just throw a new BAT stud, voltage reg and brush holder in to get me through the week. Buying a new Chinese 94 amp alt for to much money isn't an option. Will most like nurse this alt for a week and buy the 140A from https://alternatorparts.com/. I've bought Power Master starters and alts before, not an option anymore, bad luck with them.
Hoping to have this alt issue taken care of my lunch time tomorrow. Need to put some more miles on this new clutch.
Bob

#1062449 - 06/19/19 08:22 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Made the trip to NAPA this morning, could only get me a 78A alt for tomorrow, buying some of the necessary parts to restore my 95A alt would cost 45 bucks, plastic insulators for the brush holder they couldn't find a source for. Came home and called https://alternatorparts.com/ to see about a 140A alt from them, wouldn't come until Tues, to late for me to make Carlsle Sat.
Took a ride to my local starter/alt rebuilder shop. Bought all the parts to restore the 95A alt for $19.50.

Put the alt back together this afternoon and almost reinstalled in car before running out of time. Will go back after supper and finish that, hopefully that problem will be fixed.

Will relocated the fork rod to the other hole in the Z-bar tonight. Maybe it won't rain on Thurs so some more miles can be put on the new clutch.
Bob

#1062450 - 06/19/19 08:59 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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T5montecarlo Offline
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Lederach, PA
Bob, do you have to use a 12SI alternator? or are you using an adjustable rod instead of the stock bracket?
I have a 140A alternator that is the next generation after the 12SI, that has a larger diameter, so it won't fit with the stock bracket. You can have it if you want it. I think it came from a late 80s Pontiac van (with the slopey nose).

If you are interested, I can get the numbers off of it so you can look it up.

Marc

#1062459 - 06/20/19 02:08 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Marc thanks for the offer. I'm still running the 12si and stock brackets and will stay with a 12. Upgraded from the 78A to the 94A when electric fans went in. When all loads are on the alt (headlights on high beam) I still get a slight flicker when the fans kick on. May goes with the 140A 12si eventually. Don't drive the car much at night so that isn't an issue very often.

After reinstalling the alt last night voltage checks showed good, 14.6 with just the engine idling,14.2 at full load everything ON. Good to go.

An odd noise was heard at start up after the alt reinstall. It turned out to be the right tailpipe hanger strap, side exit tailpipes, had cracked again. Over the almost 20 years this ATR 2 1/2" stainless system has been on the car I've had to reweld one or the other straps several times. The heavy very rigid mandrel system was hanging by the muffler hangers and the straps during the clutch install, fatigue from driving the car causes the breaks, the clutch install finished off the break. Nothing the Miller couldn't fix last night at 11 pm.

Looked at using the other hole in the fork side of the Zbar last night. Geometry to the fork would be good and using that location would decrease the throwout travel relative to the pedal travel. That "gauge" hole in the Zbar isn't a drilled hole, it was punched. There is a shoulder on one side and a deformed hole on the other side. Trying to attach a rod end there won't work without fixing the hole. Rainy day again here again today. Will pull the Zbar, drill the hole and sleeve it, TIG in the new sleeve so a rod end can be attached there. Just another little project to optimize this expensive clutch install.
Bob

#1062462 - 06/20/19 03:21 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Dec 2007
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SSLance Online content
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So how is the engage feel though? Do you like it better than the previous setup?


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062472 - 06/21/19 06:26 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Most any clutch would be better than the one I just took out!! Will elaborate on what i think of the RST after some linkage mods and some more miles on it.

Lance don't have 10 miles on the clutch yet, busy putting out fires, alt, tailpipe hanger, mods to the mech linkage. MUST drive it tomorrow for at least 25 miles to see if all systems are go for a 6am trek to Carlisle Sat morning.

Pulled the Zbar out at lunchtime to do the new hole location on the lower arm. Couldn't drill the hardened steel out to .475" for the insert sleeve, had to dremel with a carbide tool for a press fit. Off to get it TIGed, back in the car with some POR on the repair tonight. Tomorrow install the link and set freeplay. Head off to the gas station first.

Nice surprise waiting for me in the laundry room at midnight, 1/2" of water on the floor, the electric water heater decided it was time for replacement again. Heater is drained and ready for the handtruck. Not only do I have to drive my car a lot tomorrow, now i have to pickup a new heater, install it so i can take a shower tomorrow evening Sweet.
Bob

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