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#1061873 - 05/12/19 03:13 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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With no gaskets in, intake sits on China wall, rocks corner to corner just barely and top of the port is closer to head than bottom of port, bolts line up.

With Edlebrock gaskets in place, bolts line up and intake sits almost perfectly flush on both intake and head side.

[Linked Image]


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061874 - 05/12/19 03:36 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Lance, I can clearly see in the picture the top has a slightly larger gap than the bottom. That thick gasket helps mask it too. I run thinner harder gaskets which require you to be very precise as they compress less.

Get a feeler gauge and measure if there is a gap at the top. Maybe it’s just the pic? We’re talking .000’s of an inch here. I had to whack .015 off my intake the get it perfectly square to run the thin AFR gaskets.


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#1061875 - 05/12/19 05:20 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Boy, just what Lance needs to deal with while doing a simple EFI upgrade.

Myself have been dealing with intake gasket push since the engine was assembled. Mating a Dart block, AFR 210 head to a Weiand 7525 intake has been the problem. The ports on the 210s are tall, and AFR says to use a 1206 Fel Pro but the gasket is taller than the intake ports and the Weiand intake doesn't cover the top edges well. So a 1205 has been used and the top below the blue is trimmed and then matches the 210 port. The 7525 was then port matched to the trimmed 1205, now the head ports, gasket and intake are all the same size and shape, a good port match.

The problem is the amount of alum above the port opening on the 7525 is thin after port matching, about 3/16" and over time the 1205 will push the corners of the gasket out. Currently have push at #4 corner, the blue is starting to be exposed. Have had the intake off a few times to change gaskets due to push. I tried the 1205 S4 which has the steel sandwiched into the gasket and wasn't happy with the crush patterns on it after only 300 miles of use. Went back to a 1205 and got push again in the 5-7 port. . Pulled the intake again and had an additional 3/16" alum welded to the top of the intake at 5-7 to increase the gasket contact area. This pretty much cured the push at 5-7 but now kick myself in the butt for not doing all four areas on the intake. Already have talked to my welder and will pull the intake again and have alum added to those areas.

After reading that PDF above will go the full route and check using their method. Having changed intake gaskets several times and inspecting the compression patterns it doesn't appear crush is any different top to bottom, side to side and front to rear. Maybe the wax wire will show something different.

Back to Lances EFI swap.
So maybe the new intake, throttle body is about 3/4" taller than the old setup? Hopefully it only a matter of adjusting the height of the spacer between the throttle body and air cleaner. One thing about FI is the intake manifold 3 degree angle isn't needed, that was to help keep the carb level when the engine was sitting 3 degrees down at the back. FI doesn't care about that mounting angle.

You should consider running something mixed with the coolant water to lube the water pump seal and prevent rust in the block. Eventually the rust inside the engine will get to places where you want to keep from leaking, like the head bolt threads, water pump bolt threads, intake water ports front and rear, and the alum radiator doesn't like the rusty water either, nor does it like the galvanic corrosion possible with running just water.
Don't think you need to run a strong mix of antifreeze but should run a minimum mix to lube the pump and prevent any corrosion. Last time i pulled the intake the coolant passages in the alum heads looked like I just installed them, when the water pump gaskets were changed a few years ago the view into the block showed no rusting of the cyl walls. I run a Universal yellow antifreeze for years in all my vehicles. Currently using Zerex G-05 in the 86. There are other options like Evans, which is very expensive to refill a used engine with, but I would just add one gallon of concentrate G-05 and the rest distilled water, that should protect you for years. I get the no antifreeze thing, oval track and drag racers do that to prevent having to clean up the antifreeze after an engine blows or crashing. But for a street car that sees autox and sometimes open track put a little prevention to work for you.
Bob

#1061876 - 05/12/19 05:39 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I flushed the cooling system very thoroughly last fall and put a 50/50 mixture of green antifreeze back in. It looked good enough to reuse when I drained it out for this procedure.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061877 - 05/12/19 07:09 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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So the gaskets the builder used (doubled up) are 0.050 thick (0.1000 total) and the Edlebrock gaskets I have are 0.115 thick. I snugged up 4 intake bolts just enough to keep intake from shifting but not compress the gasket and only in one small spot can I fit a 0.005 feeler gauge into and I can't even move it up toward the top any further than shown here.

[Linked Image]

The driver side I can't even get a gauge in it anywhere at all.

I'm gonna call it good, just need a good coat of sensor safe RTV around all water jacket ports and thread sealer on the bolts once it's ready to go on for the last time.

I set this on and snapped a pic...just because. laugh

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061878 - 05/12/19 07:37 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Actually I loosened the bolts up a bit and wiggled the intake around a bit checking as I did and by moving it just slightly...I got it to where I can't get the 0.005 feeler gauge in fully anywhere on either side, just the tip will go in in the same spot as the picture above. I checked the rear as well and it's the same.

Now I just have to figure out how to do the wiggle trick again when I put it on for the final time without messing up the RTV China wall...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061880 - 05/12/19 09:45 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Hello Lance
Next time you are snapping pictures in the engine bay area, could you snap one of where your clutch linkage or rod comes thru the fire wall.
I have been playing with the idea of going 5 speed and not sure where or how the linkage or cable comes thru,
Thanks
Keith

#1061881 - 05/12/19 09:50 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Sure, well do. Only one way to do this in my book, using an F body hydraulic setup and Bernies clutch master bracket. Its awesome...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061882 - 05/12/19 10:05 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Lance
One other question I wanted to ask you, is what sight do you use to post pictures?
I was using Photo Bucket, but it has gotten to be a real pain in the butt to use.
I wanted to post some pictures of my new rear end and leather seats, but I am having all kinds of problems with photo bucket.
Keith

#1061885 - 05/13/19 01:39 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Keith, I can't speak about the hydraulic stick setup but can speak about the mechanical linkage.

There is a hole in the firewall almost directly below the booster and at close to the same height as the steering column hole. That hole may not be there if the car didn't have cruise control from the factory. But the hole was punched in the sheetmetal as a knockout hole from day one of the A/G inception. Every G body has that hole, just may not be used. And if you look closely at the firewall there are dimples that would get used for the clutch rod boot's screws. In 78-81 that hole was used for the pedal to Z bar rod when equipped with a manual trans. Manual trans Gs i don't think had cruise as an option. In 82 was the metric conversion and the end of the stick shift G-body. That hole became dedicated for the cruise harness and vacuum lines into the interior.

Also if you check the area of the firewall where the tach wire runs through the firewall you will see two more dimples, the tach hole and those other two dimples form a triangle. The dimples are there as used by GM to run other wires into the interior. The backup light wire harness for a stick shift used one of those locations back in the day. Also if you look up under the dash where the tach wire comes through there are Xs in the black insulation for the other two dimples locations so GM could easily pass wire there.
And another also, to the left of the steering column under the dash is and hole in the insulation that has the cruise harness/vac passing through if so equipped. That hole was originally there to pass the clutch rod.

I believe one way or another both hyd or mech linkage use that hole, so the cruise gets relocated. In that triangle is where a bunch of circuits enter my car. The relocated cruises harness/vac, tach wire, backup lights, A/F meter, electric fan overide circuit, the Safeguard harness and vac line, low oil pressure idiot light circuit, all can squeeze into those three holes. I can send you a map of the holes if you'd like or a pic of the clutch hole.
Bob

#1061887 - 05/13/19 03:35 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Hi Lance,

Terrific advice here. One question, however: after addressing parallelism between manifold and head decks, how are the ports lining up? This may appeal:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Wireless...-uOQO2u8bqKma5jFjOQ44Z3vDKhoCy84QAvD_BwE

This, or something like it, can allow for direct, immediate inspection.

Best,
MAP

#1061888 - 05/13/19 04:15 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: Keithss]  
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Originally Posted by Keithss
Lance
One other question I wanted to ask you, is what sight do you use to post pictures?
I was using Photo Bucket, but it has gotten to be a real pain in the butt to use.
I wanted to post some pictures of my new rear end and leather seats, but I am having all kinds of problems with photo bucket.
Keith


www.smugmug.com

I pay a yearly fee but it works fantastic.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061889 - 05/13/19 04:18 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Mark, one of the benefits of the single plane intake is you can see a lot of the head's port by looking down through the open plenum of the intake. Lance's intake is taller than my single plane, ports are about the same size. With just a camera I can take pictures of some of the intake valve stems. With a small mirror you can see most of the gasket edges in all the ports.

I borrowed a Snapon bore scope from a shop several years ago to look at my cam dist gear, I was told be careful, it's expensive. The definition was lousy on the screen. Today bore scopes are cheaper and definition much better, gotta love technology in that case. Pyrometer is another one of those things, cheap today, every hot rodder should have one.

Lance, having little experience with the Vortec intake sealing can't say much about it. Only Vortec head was a 4.3 V-6 and the intake I've had off a few times for head gaskets on the darn thing, With the 8 bolts pulling the intake straight down at the corners as apposed to the 12 bolts at angles on the Gen 1 it should be easier to get a good port alignment and even pull down on each side. The old Gen 1 is a little bit trickier to get intake installed.

Thinking it to late to say but all intake gaskets aren't created equal. Always seen to come back to the Fel Pro pinto seals. Bought the Mr gaskets once and didn't like them. Edel's I haven't seen lately, has been decades, and I didn't use them back then. Looked at the Cometics intakes and will buy a set to see quality and fit when I pull my intake sometime soon, AGAIN. Have Cometic one piece oil pan and valve cover gaskets, excellent.

You won't know how good the Edel gaskets are until you pull the intake again, hopefully never. Once you have the intake bolted down inspect gasket placement through the plenum before the TBI goes on.
Bob

#1061902 - 05/13/19 09:15 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss


Mark, one of the benefits of the single plane intake is you can see a lot of the head's port by looking down through the open plenum of the intake. Lance's intake is taller than my single plane, ports are about the same size. With just a camera I can take pictures of some of the intake valve stems. With a small mirror you can see most of the gasket edges in all the ports.



I can see most of the gasket edges down in all plenums and it looks pretty dead on, like it's been gasket matched already. Can't get a good picture though and light and phone won't fit into hole at the same time.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061903 - 05/13/19 09:27 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I still would LS swap it, for major performance gains...The power curves are better and the front end would benefit from less weight. At least then you could catch them in the straights Lance...😛


Be a car builder, not a googler!
#1061904 - 05/13/19 09:31 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: Keithss]  
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Originally Posted by Keithss
Hello Lance
Next time you are snapping pictures in the engine bay area, could you snap one of where your clutch linkage or rod comes thru the fire wall.
I have been playing with the idea of going 5 speed and not sure where or how the linkage or cable comes thru,
Thanks
Keith


It's a bit of a bear to get a good picture of where the clutch rod comes thru, but here are a few of the area.

You can see the Master Cylinder mounted on Bernie's bracket under the brake booster here.

[Linked Image]

Closer view

[Linked Image]

Here you can kind of see how the bracket goes up and behind the booster and mounts on the 4 booster bolts sandwiched between booster and firewall.

[Linked Image]

Looking up from under the MC at rod going thru firewall.

[Linked Image]

I'll look back to see if I have any better pics from when I first installed it also.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061906 - 05/13/19 09:43 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Found this picture way back in the thread, this was the first clutch pushrod placement though with the John B pedal. Hole is still in the same place though I think.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061908 - 05/13/19 10:02 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Bernie's installation instructions: http://sickspeedmonte.com/PedalInstall.htm


84 - Stock
85 - ZZ383, 6-speed
#1061923 - 05/14/19 08:59 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Fuel pump removed and valve lash adjusted today...

[Linked Image]

It's always been a little bit "noisy", builder said he set it that way on purpose (makes more power). Found most to be real close to zero lash and 3 around a half turn loose or so. We set them at a half turn past zero.

Was my first time adjusting valves... I may go back thru them once again now that I have a better feel for it just to make sure we didn't miss any and that I got them all about the same.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061927 - 05/15/19 06:54 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
It's always been a little bit "noisy", builder said he set it that way on purpose (makes more power). Found most to be real close to zero lash and 3 around a half turn loose or so. We set them at a half turn past zero.

Was my first time adjusting valves... I may go back thru them once again now that I have a better feel for it just to make sure we didn't miss any and that I got them all about the same.


There are hydraulic lifters designed to run very little preload - mainly to prevent pump up at extend RPMs. If the specs for the lifters don't require less than a 1/4 turn, that's where I usually set them for others (I usually set my own around 1/8 turn) – pretty sure they’re the lifters that came in the HT383??. If so, and you're going back through the lifter adjustment, I'd recommend you wiggle the pushrod up and down until you don't feel it moving and then set them at no more than a 1/4 turn. I typically set them all at “zero”, double checking as the others are set to “zero”, then after setting all to “zero” just give them all a 1/8 to a 1/4 turn at one time.

I think you’re going to be extremely pleased with the power band with the single plane. Best guess over your current dual plane combo, the single plane will probably give up 30-25lb/ft from 1500 – 2500, leveling off to around the same power around 3500, then giving a steady increase adding around 15HP by 4700, 25HP by 5300, while extending peak power by as much as 30HP at 300RPM over the dual plane while holding the power longer (maybe as much as 500rpm over the dual plane). It should make a pretty big difference on the straightaways.

Typically, you will need to adjust the timing curve moving to a single plane, adding a good bit more timing under 2500rpm, keeping it about the same from 3500 - 5500 and you may have to back off a little past that.

#1061929 - 05/15/19 03:11 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I think now that I have a feel for them, I'll go back and adjust them all once again.

I like your idea of setting them all to zero individually using the up and down method, then going back and adjusting them all 1/4 turn all at once.

Thanks...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061930 - 05/15/19 06:10 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Well, that was much easier the second time around now that I knew what to expect. I found it easier to feel zero with my fingers on the nut vs a wrench...once I found zero I turned the nut a 1/8th turn and cranked down the set screw. Good thing I did it again as several of them were tighter than they should have been for sure.

Thanks for the tips...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061940 - 05/16/19 01:18 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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The best method I've found to adjust the valves is the EOIC method. Here's a video from Comp Cams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gMYWLMAzao

Also when you tighten that setscrew to lock it down you will want to tighten the poly lock, 5/8 hex, a just a little along with the Allen to bury the setscrew into the stud. Don't rely on just tightening the setscrew to hold the poly lock in place. Have seen the setscrews back out, then poly lock backs out. Not good.

That GM roller lifter/spider setup is pretty good. In Tom's blueprinted ZZ4 shortblock with AFR heads, big Howard's cam and stock roller lifters the engine will turn 7K all day long. When the engine had a smaller Comp roller cam we had #8 exhaust lifter seize, replaced it and has been trouble free for years now.
We set the valves for 1/4 turn preload.
Bob

#1062019 - 05/24/19 03:37 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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So, everything up top fits...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

All the changes and new parts ended up playing pretty nice together. Next up, wiring...

I'm looking for a spark plug recommendation. Specs for the engine call for a AC Delco MR43LTS which I've used before but they are a pain around my headers. Recently I ran a NGK R5724-8 which was nice because it's shorter and easier to get around headers...but it is not available in resistor which I now need. Because one is a "marine" plug and the other is a "race" plug, I seem to be running into dead ends trying to find a shorty resistor plug. Heads are GM Fastburns. Any suggestions?


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062033 - 05/26/19 07:27 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I've been running NGK plug for years in all my cars. Have two heat ranges of the plug below for the 86, the 5, hotter and 6, colder, run the hotter 5 plug for best any day use. Yes a set costs a couple bucks but it's a good clean running resistor plug. Coloration on the insulator and ground strap heat coloring show a very good choice for the AFRs. I like the NGK plugs, have ran Rapid Fires, some other A/C plugs, various Autolites recommended for my heads and these NGK double platinum are the winners
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ngk-3440

And Rock has that plug for closeout right now, 4 bucks a piece, not 11.

Just pulled my #2 and 4 plugs a few weeks ago looking another problem, they looked, read nicely for a 6K plug on an old carb engine.

There isn't a lot of choice in a shorter plug. Only the Accel Shorties which we need to run on the Tom's 350 we build, the Hookers are the problem there. My AFR are angle plug, the boots on the wires are all 90s and all wires run under the headers along the block, up the back side of the heads to the cap. Absolutely no plug or wire install issues. Both lots of time when the engine was on the stand being build to do the wires right. Up the back of the heads makes for a little bit of a PITA to pull the dist, but a really clean install not having wires across the valve covers and closer to the headers.

I've been gone a week and you still don't have that thing running????
My filthy car is going to a car and coffee tomorrow morning. Don't really care that it's rain spotted from having to sit out a few weeks ago. Got that need for some speed after sitting in a jet going 400+ for hours.

Bob

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