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#1061507 - 04/14/19 03:02 PM McLeod RST clutch install  
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mmc427ss Offline
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For several years replacing the Clutch Friction clutch, now American Powertrain, in the 86 has been on the list of Winter projects. Although it was a must do on that list the time, costs and foremost the effort needed to pull the T56 pushed the project to the next Winter's project list several times.

This will be the third clutch going into the car. When the T56 was installed 17 years ago a Centerforce 10 3/4" dual friction clutch went behind the 305 using the Gbody mechanical linkage and G bell housing. That clutch was sweet, low pedal pressure, great modulation, very good manors, my wife could drive the car. It was reinstalled when the 427 and Lakewood scattershield got dropped in and drag raced occasionally with drag radials, still a good clutch for that. After finding no hook with the drag radials a set of Hoosier QTP bias slicks were bought, the Centerforce was changed out for more clutch to accommodate the more hook of the slicks. The new Clutch Friction 700 ft-lb clutch I didn't like from day one, almost an ON-OFF switch, chattered in reverse and required finesse to engage without annoying the wife sitting in the pass seat. It worked well with the slicks but otherwise was a PITA. Have lived with it for 7 years and never happy with it, except at the drags with QTP tires.

Now with what I suspect is a leaking freeze plug in the black of the block pulling the flywheel to inspect or repair the leak has pushed the clutch replacement to being a Spring project. My drag racing days are very limited to a few test/tune passes maybe twice a year now most likely with street tires instead of slicks so less clutch is needed. Always knew a twin disc was my next choice but price was always an issue, and the expensive lite weight McLeod steel flywheel I had made for the new engine I wanted to reuse.

Jegs just had 75 bucks off the normal pricing of the McLeod RST I needed and now an RST sits on a shop bench awaiting install. Before install the clutch the rest of the other parts will be ordered and will try to make one more trip to the drags using the QTP tires and old clutch. The RST clutch McLeod says is not a race clutch and needs to be broke in via street miles, I will respect that break in. This will be the last clutch the car gets!
Bob

#1061509 - 04/15/19 12:21 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Well you made a good choice Bob. I hope although you say its the last clutch that you're still chipping away at the car for many more years! I think you'll be happy with that set up. I believe mine said 500 miles break in?

Regards,
Ron


Do it for yourself not the attention of others.
#1061511 - 04/15/19 04:08 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi Ron, good to see you still around.

If the RST lasts me another 10 years I'll be 78, not that far away.

Have been looking at all the possible twins for to many years waiting for the day when the choice had to be made. As a retiree funds for the toys isn't what it used to be, man's gotta know his limitation. But for more than a decade the twin was on the list, one of the last upgrades to do. The car just doesn't need a big clutch anymore, gearing is outrageous in all 6 gears with the 4.11s, the RST should hold up well.

There are a few Fri evening Test/Tune in the next month, will try to run the old clutch and QTP tires for the last time before before pulling things apart. Rounding up all the other essentials to do the swap takes a while. A used once, brand new trans jack did show up at the front door last week, borrowed from a friend. One less thing to acquire.

Aug is a 400 mile round trip to UMI, break in mileage.
Bob

#1061679 - 04/27/19 05:39 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Not much progress on the clutch R&R, when you're retired it's hard to find time for the things you want to do.

Ordered the extended pilot bushing from Speedway tonight. Have been using an extended bushing for several years now. The some what unique T56 setup I run moves the input shaft nose out of the pilot bearing. Running the shorter standard length bushing only showed about 1/2 of the input journal in the bushing. When the trans is pulled this time will see if the longer bushing shows a better wear pattern.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-SBC-BBC-Chevy-V8-Extra-Long-Bronze-Pilot-Bushing,6974.html

Stick install is a combo of a 15015 Lakewood shattershild for 82 F with mechanical linkage and the 18 degree fork angle , which is no longer made. A Lakewood blocksaver plate which moves the trans back about .100". A T56 that was original designed for the Mustang GT and that Ford deal fell through. That trans became the aftermarket T56 to replace the T5 in the 3rd Gen F. An adapter plate which is a 1/2" thick steel plate to adapt/mount that T56 to a canted T5 or old school 4 spd bolt pattern. It is a hefty piece of steel. The adapter plate is what makes things unique, besides allowing the T56 to mate the old school bellhousings it's also a mounting surface for the retainer which the throwout bearing rides on.
Have had problems with the throwout bearing scaring the bearing retainer where the throwout bearing rides back and forth. Have replaced that retainer several times due to scarring, it a pretty soft cast steel material. Last time a clutch was done I sent a new bearing retainer out and had it hard chromed. That is another area of concern. Hoping the hard chrome on the retainer held up to the hardened surfaces of the throwout bearing.

Have looking at available throwout bearings manufacturers. Last two throwout bearing were GM, the one in the car now has been singing when you engage the clutch for some time now. It has become like the wife, sometimes you hear it, sometimes you can tune it out. But it needs to go, but not sure what's what when it comes to quality anymore. Timken, SKF, National, GM, McLeod, Hayes, RAM, CenterForce they are all most likely imported anymore. Have always ran a standard height bearing used by most any GM mechanical linkage stick setup previously. The fork geometry was good with both the clutches installed in the car. Not sure if the new RST has the same installed finger height as the old clutches. Will call Mcleod at some point to hear what they have to say about that.
Also not sure why the two bearing they sell cost twice as much as other offerings, another question for them.

It would be nice to open up the T56 and throw a few new parts in it when the trans is out, Changing the 3/4 syncros, the upgraded pads for the forks, maybe a couple bearings but just don't have the time or effort needed to crack that case again. 15 years ago when I broke the 3/4 keys some upgrades were done. Solid keys in 1/2 3/4, steel 3/4 fork, steel inserts in the 1/2 fork and a few other tweaks. After 12 years of 500 lb-ft it's due for some love, but that will need to wait.
Bob

#1061710 - 05/02/19 04:20 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hope all is well Bob, hope you get down the track and get some new best numbers!


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1061720 - 05/03/19 02:47 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Good to see you still stop by here. The weather up your way is almost play time for your 86, get it out and wear some rubber off those tires. New tires get to be 7 years old pretty quick, like the kids. Put some miles on the car.

Being retired and "all is well" don't go together. Now that you have more time to do things there are ten times as many things to do. And what you used to do in 4 hours takes four days now. Four weeks to do door seals, A week to replace the Innovate Wide Band O2. Expecting the RST project to drag out too.

For more than a decade have wanted to do a twin in the car, finally it's sometime this year. My goal every year is to drive the 86 2K miles for fun. Yesterday took a fun drive to the plumbing supply to get a transformer for the shop's Beckett that decided to die on possibly the last day I would have needed it this year. Sat the wife's 02 SS was on jackstands in the shop to replace brake lines front to rear, used the 86 for a day. A few weeks ago my daily Astro was on stands for "brakes all around", again the 86 was out for a ride and some coffee. I just like jumping into the 86 and rowing some gears as you run up the highway. The clutch that is in the car I have learned to live with it's chatter in reverse, firmer pedal, and harsh engagement, no longer. I was another year older on Mon, time to do the twin I've wanted for years. If I waited much longer it would take me a year to install it. It's May already, UMI K of the M event is the end of Aug (that's a 400 mile round trip), Chevrolet Carlisle is June, spending a week in sunny FL at the end of the month. Just hard to find the time, and effort needed to do the RST.
But it will get done!
Bob

#1061727 - 05/03/19 04:33 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Roads are clear, throw the parts in the trunk and drive it up to my house, I will put it in for you! That should get you close to your mileage goal, and by the time you get home the clutch will be broken in!


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1061730 - 05/03/19 01:14 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Now that sounds like a plan!!


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061734 - 05/04/19 01:09 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Bring it to Florida, I won't help with the clutch, but we can find a local shop to do it!! The Lovebugs will be gone by then too!!


Leo Paugh
It's not an attitude, it's just the way I am.
POW*MIA
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#1061750 - 05/06/19 12:19 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Leo, drove once to Clearwater FL in an 85 Monte, straight through. Learned a lesson from that, flew the friendly skies the last six times, and the next one.
Jason, drove once to Minneapolis from Philly, last five times from 30,000'.
Neither the wife or I can do much more than an hour and a half in a car without stopping anymore."Beam me down Scotty", still waiting for that technology.

I'll be in Orlando for a couple days and then down to Port Charlotte with friends. Maybe even get over to Muscle Car City to relive the old days. Was there right after it opened at the old location years ago. Impressive collection of the GM of yesterday. Any GM fan should put that place on their bucket-list.
http://musclecarcity.net/

Kinda got a June 1 install start date in my mind. Chevrolet Carlisle is June 22 with the car, gotta say high to the kids.
Bob

#1061751 - 05/06/19 01:05 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I hear you on that Bob, we usually don't do much over two hours at a time in the car anymore either!


Leo Paugh
It's not an attitude, it's just the way I am.
POW*MIA
You are not forgotten
If things improve with age, I must be approaching magnificent. thumbs
#1061925 - 05/15/19 04:52 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Working on getting ready for the clutch install so most of the stuff is in hand before starting. The extended pilot bushing is here. Will make a trip out to see Bob Hanlon for an input shaft seal and bronze cup for the shifter. There are traces of AFT at the trans front bottom, maybe input seal needs replaced. That doesn't appear to be a big deal to replace. I had the T56 apart 15 years ago, 3/4 keys were destroyed, lots of upgrades were done then. Don't know if i would have the stamina to do that again, it's a PITA.

Will most likely refill with Mobil 1 ATF again, have had good shifting quality with it. But like it's brother Mobil 1 10-30 it like to seep out where ever opportunity allows. Had to have the driveshaft yoke's plug welded in because the Mobil ATF saw an opening.

Every time I've pulled this trans you pull that Lakewood Scattershield, the blocksaver plate and the 1/2" thick steel adapter plate used for the aftermarket T56 and think about how much all that weighs. This time will weigh all that, maybe close to 50 lbs. If that stuff was all alum I'd save 45 lbs off the front of the car. But I'll end up throwing some black paint on it and stuff it back in.

Hoping no surprises with bearing retainer that the throwout bearing slides on. The one in the car was hard chromed when the last clutch went in. Hoping that fixed the throwout bearing from gauling the retainer. Won't know until the trans comes out. The retainers are soft, the throwout bearing is hardened and has some sharp edges that wear the retainer

Will most likely be replacing the nylon bushings in the clutch pedal pivot rod. Almost 20 years now of use. With all the stuff stuffed up under the dash there that job is a challenge. At the very bottom of the clutch pedal stroke you can feel a sticking like feel, The neutral safety switch activates that far down so you need to push the pedal to the floor to start the car. When driving/shifting the car you don't need to depress the pedal that far so you don't notice the sticking. Only when you start the engine. Awhile ago replaced the rod ends in the mechanical linkage with QA1 premium ends and that didn't fix the problem.
Just more details to make this new clutch as sweet as it can be.
Bob

#1061932 - 05/15/19 07:53 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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What a gorgeous day here today. Jumped in the 86 and made the jaunt out to see Bob Hanlon for T56 parts. Surprised he remember me after 15 years. We have a few mutual friends.

His shop and garage are loaded with new, old Tremecs off every type. He said he's a month behind in rebuilds so that ruled out any thought of dropping mine off for a 3/4 R&R. It was nice to pick his head about the T56, fluids, power shifting, seals, syncros, lots of just good info that I concur with.
Bought a new input seal, which he says usually doesn't leak, and he talked me out of the bronze shifter insulator cup. You don't need it, more noise through the shifter, and they wear out over time. Stock nylon cup lasts forever and is quiet, I'm sold.
One more thing off the parts list.
Bob

#1061938 - 05/15/19 09:26 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Get busy!! I want to see parts spread all over your shop like they are mine right now... laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062094 - 05/30/19 10:54 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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The plan is pull the trans Sun. Rear calipers on the daughter's GTP Fri night, car show Sat, up on jackstands with the frame 2' off the ground Sun afternoon. Don't have the luxury of a lift in the shop like some I know do. Have not had one for 50 years now and somehow have always got by. But really wish I had a lift!

Most of the preliminary stuff is done to make the swap a little easier.
The machine shop that resurfaced flywheels previously is gone. Have another lined up just hope they get it right. Will have McLeod make me another billet 20 pounder again if necessary. This will be the third time flywheel refaced. Replaced the ring gear once. Would be nice if the McLeod I have just needs a cleanup.

Stopped at S&W Race Cars to get a price on waterjetting a 7 lb alum adapter instead of the 20 lb steel between the T56 and Lakewood bell. That is how a now antique Aftermarket T56 gets mated to old school bells. The Lakewood sheild and blocksaver plate gets stripped and powdercoated this time. Dan Woods is just up the road, done quickly, done good and the right price. Alum adapter price was a little steep to save 13 lbs, but something I thought I always needed to do. Have know S&W since Walt build rails in the other side of his father's sheetmetal shop. Just don't have the same connections their like the old days. I'll take care of the 22 holes in the plate, just save me the trouble of hacking it out on a bandsaw. They have a slab of 1/2"x14x14 in stock, measure, program, cut. A little easier than a bandsaw.

Bought new bushings for the clutch pedal pivot. They were new in 2002 when the T56 went in, pushed the clutch pedal in a few times since then. A stock neutral safety switch is activated using the clutch pedal at the bottom of the stroke. There has been a binding somewhere in the clutch linkage at the very bottom of the pedal stroke for quite some time. I knew the bushing would be good but had to go there to be sure, they were very good. Replacement as suspected would be a major PITA, and turns out my body paid the price. Laying in the left foot well trying to wrench the pivot bolt wasn't that hard the last time. Having this car since 91 there is almost a dozen things added behind that side of the dash. Room is at a premium, working space nix.
Worst is done there, just need to reinstall a hand full of "things" back under there, test drive, go to a car show Sat.
Bob

#1062095 - 05/30/19 11:48 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hey Bob, long time no see!

I retired 2 years ago, in August. You are right, there still isn't enough time to get things done.

I see you have been busy.

Regarding the bearing retainer scarring...my experience is that the scarring has to do with the fork being twisted while pushing the bearing, usually due to where the return spring is connected to the fork. You should be able to draw a straight line through the centerline of the release bearing, the pivot stud, and the lower pushrod pocket. The return spring should be mounted along that line. I had a scrubbing feeling when depressing my clutch and fixed it by drilling new holes for the return spring...no more scrubbing and a smooth pedal.

Marc

#1062097 - 05/30/19 11:54 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I had to lay under my dash for a while the other day putting the nuts on the studs the new coil is mounted too...and trust me, it sucks on this not quite as old as yours body also...

If you were close by, I'd roll my car off the lift to let you borrow it for your job. Sometimes it's a lot nicer to work smarter, not harder. Good luck Sunday, hope it goes smooth...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062102 - 05/31/19 05:12 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Wow, good to hear from you, must be more than 10 years. For those that don't know Marc he was a pioneer in the stick shift swaps into a G body two decades ago.
His website back then had just about all the info available for a T5, Muncie, Saginaw swap, before the mainstream venders started to do T56 swaps. He was years ahead of them back then. Even today there is pertinent info on his site.
https://garage-scene.com/

I think it was 2002 when he did the stick showcase. Still to this day I use his Word worksheet to log my mods to the car although the list is now 5 pages long. Thanks Marc.
https://garage-scene.com/manual-trans-monte/ I see my car is still listed there although it has changed a little since then. My user name on this forum actually was part of all the stick swapping done back then. We had a group of guys on the old Monte Mailing List before 2000 who became members of the MMC, Manual Monte Carlo group. Pretty rare group back then.
THANKS MARC!

Marc the 606 bell and that goofy fork have been long gone. I did redrill the spring hole to improve the pull on that setup.
Since the 427 SBC was installed in 2007 a 15015 Lakewood for the 82 F body has been installed, it fixed that fork twisting issue and still has the 17 degree angle of the 606 bell, a much better setup. I blamed the soft cast steel of the bearing retainer and the sharp edges of the throwout bearing for the wear on the retainer. When I changed the clutch about 6 years ago I sent a new retainer out and had it hard chromed. When I pull the trans I will be looking at that hoping the hard chrome held up.
As for the fork return spring the Lakewood 15500 fork now used has a good hole to allow straight pull on it and I run a minimum tension spring.
Still using the Speed Direct linkage rods but have since replaced the rod ends with QA1. Still an excellent mechanical clutch linkage setup. A gusset Zbar frame bracket was done a decade ago.

Again Marc thanks for dropping by. One of these days i need to make a trip over to the house to see you.
Bob

#1062116 - 06/01/19 10:10 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Thanks for the introduction, Bob. I recognize a lot of the usernames from the old monte list.

I did my first stick shift G body swap in 1992, nearly 27 years ago 😮. Where did the time go?

I am slowly rewriting my website in WordPress (https://garage-scene.com/wp). When finished, the "wp" will not be needed, but for now, anyone can browse it if they can find it.

The last time I saw you, your 427 was still on a stand, nearly finished.

Chevy finally got the bellhousing geometry perfected using a straight fork with the 1982 F body bellhousing; the same geometry was used in the 1983 F body bellhousing. However, by then, the 1978-1981 A body had finished and the 1982 G body didn't get a manual transmission option cussing. The CBOP pattern on the 1982 F body bellhousing does beg the question as to whether it was intended for the G body with Buick engines, but someone pulled the plug on that program.

Are doing your clutch tomorrow, Bob? If so, have fun!

#1062134 - 06/02/19 04:37 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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Originally Posted by T5montecarlo
The CBOP pattern on the 1982 F body bellhousing does beg the question as to whether it was intended for the G body with Buick engines, but someone pulled the plug on that program.



According to a friend that was at the Milford Proving grounds during the Monte SS development, in the early early program stages the plan was to offer a manual. However after the emissions results from GM powertrain came back in the program was killed. At least this is what I was told.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1062135 - 06/02/19 04:50 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I also believe the manual transmission was not offered in the G body due to emissions concerns. The people in the F body program obviously had more clout than those in the G body program.

#1062136 - 06/02/19 05:18 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Marc the 427 has been in the car for 12 years and 20k miles now. Still runs strong but should think about a refresh in the future, note think is the operative word there.

Ran into a snag at 10 pm doing the daughters 05 GTP rear calipers Fri night. The car was bought used with 30k and doubt the rear calipers were change prior to buying it. Oddly the banjo bolts were not the same thread pitch left to right and the replacement calipers were both 10x1.0. Did what I could to get the car done Fri night but a trip to the auto store Sat morning to get another banjo bolt was made. Got that project completed, 86 washed and made the car show at 5 Sat.
The GTP has another issue, ABS,Traction Control, plus annoying warning chimes for service. These W chassis cars have ABS harness problems. My wife's 02 SS I've replaced both front ABS harness, I've replaced the GTP right side already, now it's time to do the left front. This is a very common problem, wire fatigue and break due to always moving. Harness are cheap enough just tedious to get in a tight place to cut and soldier in a new harness. Have done three now, hope this one is the last for a while. Although not really a safety hazard not having ABS on the GTP I need to get that off the table before starting the clutch install as it will tie up the shop for an extended time. So harness Tues morning, clutch to follow.

As Marc stated the 82 F mechanical bell was the best choice for old school mechanical linkage into a G, much better than the 606 bell, 78-81 Chevy G used by GM. The 83 hydraulic bell was the other option if you didn't want mechanical linkage. The 85-88 Vette hydraulic bell was also another he didn't mention. That complete setup is sitting upstairs at my shop, I should sell that one. Here's a pic of that bell. https://store.tracyvette.com/item/2068/
The Lakewood 15015 scattershield installed in my car is the replacement for the 82 F bell (which was 153 flywheel only). The now rare 15015 will accept either the 153 or 168 flywheel, is larger than the GM bells which makes exhaust system routing a little more challenging. Even though the McLeod flywheel and clutch are SFI approved having a scattershield is just insurance for your feet.

Put about 50 miles on the 86 Sat night/Sun, can't say the pedal chatter is gone, just not as noticeable.

Something that did happen Sat night on the drive home at 2 am in the 86 was the A/F meter back lighting was erratic, dimming and brightening. Having just had all that apart for new pedal bushings thought what did i screw up under the dash. A few months ago added an Autometer LED dimmer for the A/F gauge. It turns out the alternator output is all over the place, volt meter shows low, then high, normal then low again. That voltage input to the LED controller drives it nuts. Time to pull the alt apart and probably replace the regulator, AGAIN. Was at Cecil County racing my car years ago and the regulator went nuts. Had to drive the car back home 80 miles on a 90 degree day, no A/C or CD player, and running off the battery for most of the trip. New regulator fixed that problem, until now. You're at the mercy of the parts suppliers anymore, everything is imported, quality ? Will do that R&R after the clutch.
Bob

#1062137 - 06/02/19 05:39 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Just a note, the 83 F body bellhousing was mechanical. Beginning in 1984, the F body used hydraulic linkage.

True, if you want to use the straight fork, the 82 F, 83 F, and 84-88 Y body bellhousings are the best choice, noting that all 3 of these choices will only fit a 153-tooth flywheel.

Knock on wood, my alternator has not acted up; I don't want to jinx it by adding "yet".

Bob, it is very strange to have different caliper banjo bolts on either side of the car. Do you know if this is a recognized problem? or was one of the bolts replaced with a larger bolt as a stripped repair by the previous owner?

#1062143 - 06/03/19 04:28 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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The 05 GTP was bought used at a Pontiac dealership in 08, was traded in by a women who bought it new. The car has every available option including the Comp G package which included the red calipers. The car has the FE3 suspension option.
One thing I did learn about these rear calipers with the parking brake as part of the caliper is they will leak out the back where the seal is, and the shaft of the park brake will seize. One caliper had the leak, the other had the frozen e-brake shaft. My daughter uses the e-brake religiously, so only one side was being applied. Also to get the e-brake cable end out of a frozen shaft assemble is a major PITA.

If i every go rear disc on the 86 it will be the included drum in the rotor type.
Bob

#1062145 - 06/03/19 12:18 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I agree on the e-brake type.

#1062203 - 06/06/19 01:24 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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I just set up my mcleod in the 96 SS Camaro. The thing I didn't notice until then was the fork type is actually a street twin. My LSx with the hydraulic set up without the fork is the RST. The gap on the fork type, first disc fly wheel side to the separator plate has a tight tolerance .020 - .025 gap. If that's what you have Bob the directions have two installation descriptions on two different installation sheets " at least mine did". One said to hand tighten the other torqued to 35 foot pounds. I called and the proper way is torqued and it makes a difference. It actually had a larger gap verses hand tight as it squares it up better with the torque. I noticed after the after reading the other docs and had to go back and remove three .010 shim washers. The washer shim packs they had sent with my setup were spot on, needing no additional shims.

Regards,
Ron

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/06/19 01:26 AM.

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#1062210 - 06/06/19 06:51 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Ron here's the RST I'll be installing. Will reread the instruction again but think it was pretty straight forward install in a SBC Gen 1. Most likely will be talking to McLeod very soon, throwout advice and may need to have another billet wheel made by them. Nobody sells a wheel that fits my needs, billet, 20lb, 153, 2 piece seal, internal balanced. Mcleod made the last one for me. If the flywheel ring gear is worn again will buy a new flywheel. Had the ring gear replaced the last time I did a clutch, actually it was the reason to do a clutch the last time. By the time I buy a gear, install it and cut the old wheel I'm close to a new price.
https://www.mcleodracing.com/index.php/clutch-kits/rst-twin-disc/rst-twin-disc-112108.html
Thanks for the heads up.

Daughter rear calipers are done, Tues evening replaced the left ABC harness which didn't cure the ABS problem. Harness failure is a common problem, have done both sides now on the wife's 02 SS and now the GTP both sides. Will stop by my local guys shop and scan the ABS codes. One of the front hubs is probably the culprit now. Both front hubs on the 02 have also been replaced. Gotta love technology.

The RST install was supposed to start this past Sun. As of Weds night the console, boot and shifter are out of the car, dist cap removed. 20 ton jackstands are under the #2 bushing area, stands under the rear, 23" clearance from the frame side rails to the floor. This should be enough room to roll the trans out from under the car on the trans jack. Will do a test jack fit tomorrow before the bolts start to be fly.
Pulled the T56 drain plug and turned out the lights.

The goal is to be looking at the freeze plugs by Fri afternoon. Need to get any new or refinished parts dropped Mon morning at the latest. Next week will need to make a lot of progress on the swap, Carlisle is June 22.
Bob

#1062220 - 06/06/19 04:39 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Get after it!!! laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062235 - 06/07/19 12:06 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Yes it's the exact same thing I have but mine has the throw out and a billet flywheel.They called it a street twin for some reason on the phone? I'll snap a pic of mine on the engine this weekend before I install it in the car. This is the second car I have bought one for, The're nice IMO.

As fare as it being straight forward yes. But if you have two different instruction sheets with a discrepancy you might scratch your head as I did... laugh

Regards,
Ron.

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/07/19 12:10 AM.

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#1062237 - 06/07/19 06:05 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Wow, got a lot done today. The freeze plugs, galley plugs and cam plugs on the back of the engine aren't leaking. The removing of a hundred bolts and screws to inspect the freeze plugs is done. So much for a leaking freeze plugs back there, the reason to install the RST was partially driven by finding a leaking plug.

The other reason to do the RST was what I thought was a throwout bearing noise. An inspection the old disc and flywheel showed the disc metal edge was just touching the flywheel at it outer edge. That was the noise I was hearing, flywheel has a light scratch that should be removed when resurfaced. The disc pucks were worn thin on the inner and outer edges and thicker in the center, odd.That disc was very aggressive, a 700 lb ft, ceramic, installed 2011, only about 10K miles. Was surprised by that much wear on the disc and it never let on it was going to expire soon.

Mostly all good news today.

The 23" floor to lower frame rail height was just enough, although I had to roll out the trans near the rear tire. But it came out without a hitch.

The bearing retainer for the throwout bearing that was hard chromed and installed with this last clutch still looks great, if anything polished now, no sign of wear through. So that can be reinstalled after a paint touch up. That was the third retainer i used on this car, first two got chewed up by the throwout's hardened steel.

A lot of clutch dust in the Lakewood. It took some scraping before a washing to clean that mess. Lakewood fork, pivot, and even the throwout bearing was ok, not noisy. Couldn't remove the almost 20 pound adapter plate bolted to the Lakewood from under the car, bolts froze. So pulled both together, yikes, heavier than i remember. Taking the scale from the house to the shop tomorrow to get accurate weights on the five components going back in. But i know everything is heavy. Except the flywheel, shops scale said 18 lb.

Flywheel ring gear is good, surface should clean up nice, the new RST disc is smaller. Should find time tomorrow to drop off the wheel to resurface it.

Block saver plate, scattershield, adapter plate, fork and retainer all have finished coat of paint on one side. Tomorrow should be able to get the opposite sides done.Should give me a three day dry time before reinstall. For years Rustoleum Prof HP Enamel has been used with great success, easy to spray with 15 min recoat, dries hard and is durable, retains it's shine. Sounds like a commercial.

All 100 of the bolts and screws are prepped. They were painted years ago, just don't think I have the ambition to do them again.

Yep, trans input shaft seal has been seeping, Mobil 1 ATF finds any place it can to escape. The ATF on the lower edge of the shield came from there. Will be pulling the front off the trans to change that seal. Will be able to do that right on the trans jack. Where the vent pipe enter the trans it was a little wet, don't think there is a quick fix for that. It was always a little loose since new. Will clean up the area and forget it.

Pilot bearing still looks but will get a new one just because I'm there. Looking at the nose of the input shaft the wear patter is very good, correct depth into the pilot bushing. Had switch to the extended Speedway bushing this last clutch. Previously with a standard bushing was only getting about 60% contact. So another plus for this install.
Input shaft splines still very nice, and straight. Hanlon told me my input shaft is very scarce, don't use it up. Another reason to go RST, the slicks go bye bye, no more QTP at the track.

Decided to refinish the 18 lb adapter plate instead making a new one from alum. The potential time delay is one thing, the overall cost even with me doing all the drilling and tapping, but mostly it's the possibility of misalignment. There are 16 holes based off the center 3" hole. Alignment of the input shaft/pilot/bell/bearing retainer/trans is as good as it can get right now. I can only see delays going for aluminum. Used the flap dics lightly to clean up the "soiled" areas and mating areas, then palm sanded them. Two coats of black each side, done.

Same deal with scattershield and blocksaver plate, prepped and painted one side. Was going to powdercoat but two reasons for not doing that , turnover time and mostly the fact all the old paint would need to come off both, again time and more expense. The old paint lasted for more than a decade on this car, 10 more make me 78, I'll worry about it then.

So kicked some butt today, looking at a test drive this time next week. A few small things to buy yet but all in all moving right along.
Bob



Last edited by mmc427ss; 06/07/19 06:38 AM.
#1062238 - 06/07/19 10:20 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Freiburger would be proud Bob.


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#1062241 - 06/07/19 12:42 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Bob, don't you ever sleep?

Every flywheel I had resurfaced has resulted in a chattering clutch. Every original flywheel that I just sanded and reused never resulted in a chattering clutch. I don't think the machine shops are using good tolerances for setting up their machines. I hope you have better luck with your resurfaced flywheel than I ever have.

Based on the wear you described, does your clutch require your flywheel have a tapered surface rather than a flat surface?

If the vent is sandwiched between the tail and main case, clean the area well and smear a light bead of Ultra Black (with a wet finger tip) around the vent base. On T5s, I never trusted the o-ring and always added Ultra Black to the o-ring area. In your case, you are not going to disassemble to fix the vent, so a surface coat should work.

Is Bob Hanlon implying that you can't buy a replacement input shaft for your transmission? If so, that sucks. I would have thought it might be the same as the LT1 or LS input shaft.

Marc

#1062245 - 06/07/19 10:59 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: T5montecarlo]  
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I have a couple pics of mine. I plan to install the trans and Hurst short throw in the morning tomorrow along with the Kooks long tubes. Then put the entire frame, engine and trans back in the car real quick. I think I only need a few hours to do it all. I love installing complete packages in from the bottom, it's so easy. This is actually a street twin that has the 153 tooth flywheel as a package. It's good for 1200 hp with a street friendly release. When I compare it to the RST I don't see any real difference, its just the predecessor I guess.

And that 500 dollar bell housing is something you talked me into Bob!

And I already snapped the throw out bearing retainer in all three retainers. laugh

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/07/19 11:23 PM.

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#1062246 - 06/08/19 04:22 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Ron, nice pics. When at S&W last week was talking to their engineer guy, he said he had an 04 Cobra/T56 and a Quick Time bell. I know both the lakewood and Quick Time weight a lot. Today weighed all the pieces to my pie. When I compare them to an old school alum bell like the old 606 for the G-body it's no wonder I run a 650 front spring. Lakewood shield, blocksaver plate, adapter plate and the 22 bolts to install all that, it's a whooping 57 lbs. Add in the Dart Little M block at another +40 lb and that's an extra hundred pounds up front. The 1/2" thick adapter plate is 18 lb by itself, in alum it would be about 6-7, a 10lb savings. In the real world that 10 means nothing, besides the old plate is all pretty again and ready for the next 10 years.

Marc, my T56 is a 2.97 1st, after market replacement for the 3rd gen F with T5 which had the canted trans install. The adapter plate sold with the trans mated both the canted or straight bell, drilled for either install. The plate is actually a well made piece. Back around the dawning of the new millennium, going 6 spd in a G-body started to take off. Problem was the choices weren't many, Richmond, LT1, LS, or aftermarket T56. Junkyard donors were scarce, Richmond expensive and a pricey external shifter, Delivered new to my door for $1980 with the adapter plate from Liberty was the logical choice, the aftermarket with the 2.97 1st and a .62. Both the LT and LS trans of those days was a 2.60 with a .5 6th gear. The exception to that rule would be the 1993 T56 into the 4th gen F which I think got the 2.97 1st.
The biggest reason to buy the A/M trans was the 5 and 6 ratios at .80 and .62. For the type of driving I do those ratio became useful when downshifting, not thinking about fuel economy the deep OD of the .50 would get you. The 2.97 and the 3.73 rear made the 1st gear more fun with old 305. Another old fact was the only other GM to get the 2.97 1st gear was the old LS1 ZO6 Vette.
The input shaft in my trans is one of those odd man out things, they don't make a replacement for it. Besides being the 2.97 ratio the input shaft is longer because of the 1/2" adapter plate and the old school bell used. Also the 2.97 A/F trans came with the lowest torque rating of most all T56 because of the weaker input shaft. Back almost two decades ago the A/F T56 was a very good choice for me. Today more and better trans options, just hard to do a brand new out of the crate T56 for the 2 grand I spent.

Removed the pilot bushing this afternoon via the grease method, a mess, didn't have a slice of bread handy. Removed bushing was worn very little and showed excellent contact with the input. New bushing headed to the freezer tomorrow.
All parts now painted up, even blew a coat on all the hardware, because I had some paint left in the bottom of one can.

Flywheel dropped off at Doug Meyers machine shop this morning, thinks .015 may clean it up,should be good when done, pickup Mon afternoon. Marc the flywheel face was, is, flat, not sure how it could be anything but flat. First time I've been to Meyers, will ask for a shop tour when I pick up the flywheel. Previous 1/2 dozen times i had a flywheel dressed was just down the street, real nice wet Blanchard grinder, owner passed away recently, shop now gone. So looking for another shop to fill that void. May be pulling the AFRs in the near future and getting a refresh done, the reason for a Meyers shop tour.
Thinking about the wear on the disc, being it only lasted 10K the friction material was very aggressive, hot and cold, wore quickly and deposited that on the inside of the bell. Heat dissipation in the center of the "pukes" may be better than the outer edges, the reason the tips wore more than the centers. Not an engineer, just know they wore oddly.

Ron, only familiar with what I've read about the evolution of the Mcleod twins. The Street Twin was the first version and build to handle a lot of torque. A car I know had the early twin and had floater plate issues, rattled, and over heating. Can't remember all the detail from 15 years ago. I think the RST and RXT are down sized Street twins because they built a to aggressive clutch for most guys needs. Choosing between the RST and RXT was easy, the only difference between the two is the disc friction material. The RST should get me away from that ON/OFF switch I just removed, but still rated at 700 lbft . Only downside I see is not supposed to be used with slicks. Not a problem, have made a hundred trips down the track and done trying to get that 11.99 slip of paper. If I really wanted to go that fast I'd put a 6 spd auto in the car and run mid 11's. Will give the Hoosier QTP away to someone who needs them. Street tire passes in the future. Long live the RST!!!.
Bob

#1062251 - 06/08/19 02:28 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Some components I didn't mention.
Weighted both clutches, the old Clutch Science 10 3/4" pressure plate and 10 1/2" disc was 22 1/2 lbs. Will net about 25 cents at the scrap yard.
The new RST was also 22 1/2 lbs complete.

The billet McLeod flywheel weighed in at 18 1/2 lb before resurfacing. When I bought it new I ordered a 20lb wheel. This will be it's third resurfacing, fortunately there is no signs of heat cracking, just abuse from the ceramix disc used on it. If I was to buy a new flywheel I would still go the 153 tooth 20 lb billet route. Don't need a 30 pounder for this car and the really lightweight flywheels in the 12 lb range wouldn't be as engagement friendly as the slightly heavier wheel.
Bob

#1062267 - 06/09/19 03:28 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Dang I better step it up or you'll be back on the road before me!! Nice work Bob... Glad it all looked good.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062273 - 06/09/19 05:10 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Just ordered from Summit both the throwout bearings McLeod sells for my clutch. One is the standard short and the other the three position adjustable. Previously had used the short three times and think that is what I will use again. The bell does have the adj fork pivot which was set up for the short throwout and rechecked each time. This is the third time the flywheel has been cut moving the pressure plate away from the throwout bearing, maybe moving .060" total, not much, but 1/16". Having both throwouts will let me dial in the fork angle again via the bearing and pivot. The bearing I don't use I will return to Summit.

Always the question come up about what lubes to use where on a stick install. I found opinions are like "everyone has one",. all over the place.
The extended pilot bushing/input shaft nose will just get a very light coat of very light weight oil to aid install.
The input/disc splines I've used thin Nerver-seez, a light coating to prevent corrosion. It doesn't fly off, allows the disc to move the little bit it needs to, still looked good after the junk the old clutch dumped there. What others say about spline lubing is anything from. dry, nothing goes on at all, Lubriplate, 70% Moly, wheel bearing grease, special car manufacture blends, McLeod says Dry Graphite Spray. Even the clutch venders can't agree on what to use.

The throwout bearing slides on the retainer, have used a light coating of blue high temp synthetic wheel bearing grease there and at the fork pivot. Not sure if I have a better solution for that sitting on the shelf. It's worked well in the past. The hard chromed retainer held up very well to the hardened throwout bearing after 7 years of rowing a 6 sp. It doesn't get very dusty, or wet at the throwout bearing area, the teardown showed that, old grease still good. So probably use the old standby blue grease.

I knew i saw this info a long time ago. How to set up a fork on a mechanical linkage setup. Sorry about the pony car link but McLeod doesn't have a link to that pdf on their website.
https://www.cjponyparts.com/skin/frontend/cj-pony/default/images/install-pdf/install_mcleod1.pdf


Also ordered from Summit a set of Fel Pro 1205 and a set of Cometic C5528-060 intake gaskets from Summit. It looks like the intake needs to come off again. Have used three sets of 1205s now on this engine. Once tried the 1205 S4 steel core and didn't have good impressions because they are harder than the 1205. The intake is port matched to the AFR head, the 1205s need to be trimmed at the top of the port to the blue line for a proper match. The amount of material left above the port of the manifold after port matching was to thin, not a lot of gasket contact. The outside corners of the 1205 push out over time, a potential vac leak at a bad place. The worst area was #5-7, a while ago about 3/16" alum was added to the top of the intake there, milled, fixed the push there. Now #2-4 shows a problem brewing. Just another one of those should, could have done all 4 areas when I just did the one. Gotta love hindsight.
So far the plugs in #2-4 look good, engine runs well, odd lean cruise issue though,

Didn't work on the car today. Instead the wife and I watched the 10 year old grandson strike out 6 of 7 batters the last two inning to win the championship game. Today was a good, happy day.
Bob

#1062320 - 06/11/19 07:29 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Flywheel picked up at Doug Meyer's shop today. Got the tour of his old school shop, been in business for 47 years, engine work only, he can do everything but cut a crank, A huge collection of engine parts, everywhere, does a lot of roundy-round engines. Got to sit with him for 15 min and talk about a few things, intake gaskets, pan gaskets, oils, getting my AFRs refreshed. Easy to talk to.

Leaving his shop I noticed a black SS with a very rusted hood sitting in his lot. Went back in and ask who's car. The piston guy said it was his. I have the original hood for my car sitting in my daughter's garage 15 years now. It was heading to the scrap yard very soon. Instead it will now reside on his SS, all he has to do is pick it up.

Pulled the front plate off the T56 tonight to replace the input shaft seal. Not a big deal, just a pain cleaning off all the old RTV I put there 15 years ago. With the trans sitting on the trans jack it came apart with only a little persuasion, no parts fell out. I was amazed at how clean the main case was inside. Further inspection through the case into the tailhousing you can see the large magnet which collects all the gear wear. WHAT IS THAT! Using a strong magnet stick I pulled out a synchro key. It came from the 4/3 is the front gear set, I can see there is only two of the three keys in it. 3rd gear has been behaving a little differently the past year or so. There is no way to reinstall the key without total disassembly. So the decision was made to reinstall the front plate and put the trans back in the car. Will then see at a later date if I pull the trans to fix 3/4.

Shortly after i installed the T56 (305 engine) the stock stamped steel keys broke in 3/4, a common problem back then. The trans would lock up in either 3rd or 4th because the broken key would wedge and not allow the sleeve to move when shifted. A call to Tremec tech it was said they knew nothing about broken keys and had no fix. The 4th Gen F forums were loaded with this problem. Fortunately I found a guy who was selling his own sourced solid keys for 1/2, 3/4. His friend at the old Borg Warner plant had an in to the parts bins and they came up with some slightly modified off the parts shelf replacements for the stamped keys. This was a few years before the aftermarket started selling solid keys for the T56. A set of his keys and key springs for 1/2 and 3/4, the steel 3/4 fork, a new 3/4 synchro assemble, and a 1/2 modified fork I installed back then, 2002. Guess I should be thankful that all stayed glued together this long.

Stopped at Bob Hanlon's also today to see if he had a fix for the vent tube leak on the T56. He has seen it and has remove the crimped on fitting and used a 90 degree pipe/barb fitting there. Tonight pulled the plate off there to access the back side of the stamped steel fitting they use. Cleaned up the fitting, hole, and area around the fitting and dropped red locktite there to try and lock the fitting to the hole. Will then use a small amount of RTV over the locktite tomorrow . The leak there wasn't bad at all, just a slightly wet area, but this engine/trans has had to many seepers over the years, just keep chasing them. I credit Mobil 1 10-30 oil and Mobil 1 AFT for all the leaks, it find any and all place to seep.

Throwout bearings should arrive tomorrow. Flywheel, clutch, bell with fork install next. May have the bell off once or twice to check fork angle. Made 3/8-16 x 2" studs to make installing the bell a little easier. Luckily i can sit on my butt, top of the head stuffed in the tunnel, to pickup that 50 lbs of bell and locate it on the back of the engine. hoping to only do it twice.
Bob

#1062376 - 06/13/19 04:44 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Blocksaver plate, flywheel and clutch installed. Ordered the throwout bearings Sat night from Summit, FedEx says it take four days by a wagon train from Tx to Pa, delivery Thurs. This slowed progress a little.

The RST black floater was a PITA to install. The bolts are a 3/8-16 with a long shoulder. The alum plate is drilled 3/8" with anodized holes, tight fitting, had to make an effort to pull the plate down evenly tightening each of the 6 bolts a little at a time. You just didn't throw it up on the flywheel and snug it down. Once torqued down to 25 one bolt at a time was removed, blue locktite, back to 25. After that another round of 25, then a round of 35, 35. Yep, I love my torque wrench, a old clicker i bought when I was kid, like 1970. When the 427 project was underway the wrench was sent out for re calibration. Have treated it like the fine tool it is ever since.

Next is install the 60 lbs of scattershied, adapter, fork, retainer and throwout bearing in with a couple bolts. Setting up the angle of the fork is important and needs to be checked. Many variables in play, flywheel, bell, blocksaver plate thickness. Position, height, of fingers on the pressure plate vary from clutch to clutch. As the disc wear the fingers move outward, this moves the throwout bearing back, the reason to adjust the pedal free play on a mech linkage car. The throwout bearing thickness can vary, some shorter than others, even the three position adj throwout makes it much longer. The shaft the throwout bearing slides on is only so long, when disc are new the throwout is forward on this shaft, as the disc wears the fingers move rearward, the throwout needs to move rearward on the shaft. A thick throwout bearing may correct fork angle when the clutch is new but as the throwout has to move rearward with disc wear it may run out of shaft length on the retainer.

The Lakewood has an adj height fork pivot installed so there is some leeway for adj there yet. Initially the fork angle, fork pivot adj was setup for the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch before the new engine went in. This RST now being the third clutch going in it's time to revisit all that again.
Just another one of those necessary thing to try and make right the first time.

One thing I really like about a mechanical linkage clutch is when setup correctly the stroke of the pedal is sweet. You get pedal feel from the fingers of the pressure plate when they get to the engagement position. Have driven a 1/2 dozen stick Gs over the years, didn't like the feel of any of the early hyd setups. even some of the new cars I've driven had that dead feeling, no feedback. Only exception to that was Bernie's car which I didn't drive, only sat in it and worked the pedal. Best pedal stroke, effort, of any hydraulic I've pushed.

May be doing an upgrade in daily driver's very soon. My 270K 95 AWD Astro isn't tired yet, just body decay getting the best of it. Going to a school auction, a much newer AWD Astro is going on the block. Have had pickup trucks, full size vans, refuse to drive a mini van, haven't seen an import that fits the bill, just hard to find a small van that can do what a loaded AWD Astro LS can do. Hoping it's one of those garage kept toys our public school systems have laying around.
Bob

#1062383 - 06/13/19 04:24 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Keep plugging away Bob... Meanwhile I'm enjoying the fresh ocean air blowing in off the Pacific in the Central Coast of California. Headed to Sonoma Raceway tomorrow...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062423 - 06/17/19 03:01 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Lance hopefully you had a nice cool week in CA.

Well the 86 is back on the ground again. Just need to reinstall the console with it's four different wire circuits in it. Adjusted the rear swaybar rate back to full soft again for street driving and rotated the tires while up on the stands.

After playing with the fork pivot height ended up moving it just a little forward to increase fork angle. When the initial Centerforce DF clutch went in 17 years ago it was set up for the recommended 4.750" block face to pivot stud top height and pedal travel, effort, and engagement was sweet. The second clutch installed used the same 10 3/4" pressure plate but a much more aggressive disc, an ON-OFF disc which I hated from day one. The travel, engagement were good with a little more static pressure plate rate using that 4.750" setup. The new RST is about 1/8" taller than either of those clutches, the billet flywheel has been cut three times now and is now much thinner than the standard .960" wheels. Decided to see if moving the pivot forward to 4.625" would be better. So removing the fork pivot which was red locktite in many moons ago required a small pipe wrench which buggered the ball end. Luckily a trip to the local speed shop and had a new stud to reinstall. Bought both the McLeod standard throwout bearing and their adjustable height bearing to see which would give me the best fork-throwout combo. Was not impress with the adjustable throwout, shortest length was to long, no grease groove in the inner bore, and it had tendency to bind on the bearing retainer. Ended up using the standard stock length McLeod throwout

The Lakewood bell/T56 adapter plate/throwout bearing retainer, throwout bearing and fork, 50 lbs total, are all installed as one unit before the trans with this aftermarket T56 install. On the first bell test fit the fork was left out. Looking through the fork hole in the bell the throwout could be slid forward to just touch the fingers of the pressure plate, a marker was used to mark that position of the bearing on the retainer. Pull the bell off, install fork and move throwout to the mark on the retainer and you can check the geometry of the fork, throwout and pivot. Not easy-pessy but a good way to help setup the fork pivot to get fork parallel to the rear plane of the engine block.

In the end the pivot was moved to the 4.625" depth about the max allowable due to only having 3 1/2 threads left to secure the pivot stud. The fork is parallel when touching the fingers. As the disc wear the fingers will move outward, rearward, an adjustment of the pedal freeplay will move the throwout rearward away from the fingers, the angle of the fork should get better as
this happens. Time will tell.
22 bolts for the Lakewood bell install done.
So goes another lesson in mechanical clutch linkage.

Installing the trans into the two disc and pilot bushing was a PITA. Using the plastic alignment tool to get things aligned is somewhat of a tedious job do to the slop in the plastic tool. Have used these plastic tool several times before on single disc clutches with no problems. McLeod, RAM and a few others now sell a billet alignment tool which precisely aligns the two (or more) disc to the pilot bushing. If there is a next time I will spend the 40 bucks to get one.
A trick I learned years ago is when you can't get the nose of the input into the pilot bushing when installing the trans you can have someone push the clutch pedal down to free up the disc. You just have to be sure the splines of the input are into the disc or the disc will drop. On the twin disc you need to be certain to have both discs into the spline of the input. After an hour of playing with the T56 trying to get it into the pilot I finally went that route. Bingo!

3 3/4 QT of that expensive Mobil 1 AFT poured down the shifter hole before bolting in the shifter.
Didn't install a bronze shifter bushing per "not needed" from Hanlon.

Tonight will finish the shifter lower boot, console and the rest of the parts removed for this project.
Test drive tomorrow if it isn't raining. One day ahead of schedule.
Bob


Last edited by mmc427ss; 06/17/19 05:44 PM.
#1062429 - 06/17/19 11:07 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Good work Bob!!

I just got home, 278 unread emails and 10 large boxes of contact lenses to unpack, sort and pack back up precede my ability to button Barney back up for good. Soon though...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062430 - 06/17/19 11:34 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
...no grease groove in the inner bore...
That is pretty poor quality; I am shocked such a bearing would have McLeod's name on it.



Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Installing the trans into the two disc and pilot bushing was a PITA. Using the plastic alignment tool to get things aligned is somewhat of a tedious job do to the slop in the plastic tool. Have used these plastic tool several times before on single disc clutches with no problems. McLeod, RAM and a few others now sell a billet alignment tool which precisely aligns the two (or more) disc to the pilot bushing. If there is a next time I will spend the 40 bucks to get one.
A trick I learned years ago is when you can't get the nose of the input into the pilot bushing when installing the trans you can have someone push the clutch pedal down to free up the disc. You just have to be sure the splines of the input are into the disc or the disc will drop. On the twin disc you need to be certain to have both discs into the spline of the input. After an hour of playing with the T56 trying to get it into the pilot I finally went that route. Bingo!
Is there slop in the spline of the dual disc plates? Why would the plastic tool work better on single disc clutches? I am not following.

#1062431 - 06/17/19 11:45 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I did mine rather quickly maybe a couple minutes. I used my steel alignment set Though.


Do it for yourself not the attention of others.
#1062442 - 06/19/19 06:37 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Mark on one of McLeod's videos he suggests that on a twin disc rotating the alignment tool in one direction to align the splines of the two disc so the drive or coast sides of both splines are aligned. It's not that the disc splines are sloppy, it's the plastic tool is a little sloppy.The reason everyone want's to sell you the billet tools. The billet tool doesn't sag when you hang the weight of two disc on it, get a true centering of the disc using it.

Finally drove the car out of the shop this afternoon, rain had stopped. About a mile up the road and back, readjust pedal for more freeplay. Then out for another quick drive up the road.

Initial impressions. Pedal effort is less than the last clutch and is easy to push. Pulling out in 1st gear and it's a little grabby. Other gears very smooth engagement. Downshifting is a little grabby, not used to that. Clutch pedal has a little chatter to it when cold, when hot is very smooth. While driving along pressing pedal to remove freeplay the pedal has a very light pulsation. Almost like the throwout is riding on pressure plate fingers that are high and low. Thinking this is a product of disc breakin, removing high spots off the four faces of the discs. Engagement is too high, to close to the top of the pedal travel. Will reduce some of the linkage ratios to allow less throwout travel relative to the pedal travel. When the 1st clutch went in this car the clutch pedal down rod hole was relocated 1/2" lower so the total pedal travel arc could be reduced from 6 1/2" to 5 1/2". A pedal stop was made to arrive at a 5 1/2" stroke. A feeler gauge was then used to set disc clearance at .035" at full depression of the pedal. A 3/4" hole drilled in the bell directly below the flywheel disc face allowed a .035"x12" feeler gauge to be used. This all worked out great on both old clutches. Now need to revisit this again. I neglected to check for ease of checking with that gauge before bell final install. May have to go back and enlarge that 3/4" hole rearward to be able to see, check gap on both disc. You never want to over disengage a diaphragm pressure plate, that can damage the pressure plate.

There is another hole in the G-body Z-bar arm on the fork side, 3/4" above the one I'm using. it was used by the factory to set up the original z-bar arm to fork length. Using that gauging hole for the fork rod will decrease fork travel 10% at the same pedal travel. The first effort to move the clutch engagement lower in the pedal stroke. Also can move to the original hole in the pedal which is another decrease in fork travel. This will be a trial and error looking for that sweet spot in pedal travel and where the clutch hooks up.

Got a little sidetracked tonight with an alternator on the car. A week before the RST install started had to drive the car late at night to get back home, daughter's car was in the bay getting rear brakes done. On that trip home the LED backlighting in the A/F gauge was dim, bright, dim, bright. Started to keep an eye on the volt gauge, it was 14.5, 12, 14.5, 12, all over the place. Tonight check alt output voltage just idling, 14.5, throw a load on it and after a short time voltage dropped to 12.5-13. The low miles 94 amp alt did this once before at Cecil County on me. Replaced the voltage reg and bearings and it was fine up till now.
Pulled alt off the engine tonight, disassembled it, what I found was the BAT stud is nutted to the diode pack, the nut and pack showed overheating, erosion and wasn't making good contact anymore. On a light amp load alt could keep up, under full load it got hot there and couldn't put out the amperage/voltage.
Would like to do an upgrade to a 140 12SI but that can't be done before Carlisle on Sat. Will visit my local NAPA in the morning to weigh my options. May just throw a new BAT stud, voltage reg and brush holder in to get me through the week. Buying a new Chinese 94 amp alt for to much money isn't an option. Will most like nurse this alt for a week and buy the 140A from https://alternatorparts.com/. I've bought Power Master starters and alts before, not an option anymore, bad luck with them.
Hoping to have this alt issue taken care of my lunch time tomorrow. Need to put some more miles on this new clutch.
Bob

#1062449 - 06/19/19 08:22 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Made the trip to NAPA this morning, could only get me a 78A alt for tomorrow, buying some of the necessary parts to restore my 95A alt would cost 45 bucks, plastic insulators for the brush holder they couldn't find a source for. Came home and called https://alternatorparts.com/ to see about a 140A alt from them, wouldn't come until Tues, to late for me to make Carlsle Sat.
Took a ride to my local starter/alt rebuilder shop. Bought all the parts to restore the 95A alt for $19.50.

Put the alt back together this afternoon and almost reinstalled in car before running out of time. Will go back after supper and finish that, hopefully that problem will be fixed.

Will relocated the fork rod to the other hole in the Z-bar tonight. Maybe it won't rain on Thurs so some more miles can be put on the new clutch.
Bob

#1062450 - 06/19/19 08:59 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Bob, do you have to use a 12SI alternator? or are you using an adjustable rod instead of the stock bracket?
I have a 140A alternator that is the next generation after the 12SI, that has a larger diameter, so it won't fit with the stock bracket. You can have it if you want it. I think it came from a late 80s Pontiac van (with the slopey nose).

If you are interested, I can get the numbers off of it so you can look it up.

Marc

#1062459 - 06/20/19 02:08 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Marc thanks for the offer. I'm still running the 12si and stock brackets and will stay with a 12. Upgraded from the 78A to the 94A when electric fans went in. When all loads are on the alt (headlights on high beam) I still get a slight flicker when the fans kick on. May goes with the 140A 12si eventually. Don't drive the car much at night so that isn't an issue very often.

After reinstalling the alt last night voltage checks showed good, 14.6 with just the engine idling,14.2 at full load everything ON. Good to go.

An odd noise was heard at start up after the alt reinstall. It turned out to be the right tailpipe hanger strap, side exit tailpipes, had cracked again. Over the almost 20 years this ATR 2 1/2" stainless system has been on the car I've had to reweld one or the other straps several times. The heavy very rigid mandrel system was hanging by the muffler hangers and the straps during the clutch install, fatigue from driving the car causes the breaks, the clutch install finished off the break. Nothing the Miller couldn't fix last night at 11 pm.

Looked at using the other hole in the fork side of the Zbar last night. Geometry to the fork would be good and using that location would decrease the throwout travel relative to the pedal travel. That "gauge" hole in the Zbar isn't a drilled hole, it was punched. There is a shoulder on one side and a deformed hole on the other side. Trying to attach a rod end there won't work without fixing the hole. Rainy day again here again today. Will pull the Zbar, drill the hole and sleeve it, TIG in the new sleeve so a rod end can be attached there. Just another little project to optimize this expensive clutch install.
Bob

#1062462 - 06/20/19 03:21 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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So how is the engage feel though? Do you like it better than the previous setup?


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062472 - 06/21/19 06:26 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Most any clutch would be better than the one I just took out!! Will elaborate on what i think of the RST after some linkage mods and some more miles on it.

Lance don't have 10 miles on the clutch yet, busy putting out fires, alt, tailpipe hanger, mods to the mech linkage. MUST drive it tomorrow for at least 25 miles to see if all systems are go for a 6am trek to Carlisle Sat morning.

Pulled the Zbar out at lunchtime to do the new hole location on the lower arm. Couldn't drill the hardened steel out to .475" for the insert sleeve, had to dremel with a carbide tool for a press fit. Off to get it TIGed, back in the car with some POR on the repair tonight. Tomorrow install the link and set freeplay. Head off to the gas station first.

Nice surprise waiting for me in the laundry room at midnight, 1/2" of water on the floor, the electric water heater decided it was time for replacement again. Heater is drained and ready for the handtruck. Not only do I have to drive my car a lot tomorrow, now i have to pickup a new heater, install it so i can take a shower tomorrow evening Sweet.
Bob

#1062507 - 06/25/19 04:44 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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On Fri had to put the priorities in order. First pickup a new water heater in the afternoon, get the 86 out for some miles on the clutch and fill the tank for the Sat trip to Carlisle, wash the car and make it a 50 footer again. Sat up early to be parked in Carlisle by 9. Oh, water heater I did sweat the copper lines in on Sun afternoon after a Cars and Coffee thing in the morning. You need to get your priorities in order.

Very happy with the clutch pedal effort, easy to push. It takes some getting used to, seems to grab high in the pedal stroke. Pulling out in 1st gear requires just a little finesse to leave softly. I do think as the disc get broke in this will get better. Once moving the up shifts are much smoother than the previous clutch. When downshifting the clutch bites abruptly, this I think due to the fact the dics don't have a spring hub.

Have been playing with the linkage changing ratios of the arms to try and optimize the clutch engagement verses pedal travel. Did some measurements tonight of the various travel points in the linkage, the fork rod being the most important. Currently 1" travel at the end of the fork which translate to .466" at the throwout bearing, this includes the freeplay. Standard GM fork ratio is 2.33:1. Will make a call to McLeod to pick there brain about finger travel on these clutches. Because the intent is that this new RST needs to be the clutch for the future it needs to be made as good as it can get now.

The 115 mile trip to Carlisle Sat went flawlessly. The alternator R&R done earlier in the week was a success. With the cruise set at 72, engine running at 2400 rpm , A/F meter showing a consistent 15.2, mpg was 21 for the 235 round trip. Not bad for a 427 SBC with an antique carb, 4.11 gears and an R12 A/C cranking.

Only when a long turnpike trip is on the schedule does the carb to cruise diaphragm rod get installed, all other times it's pulled off. I did learn a little lesson about how to make the cruise operate a little smoother at turnpike speed. Simply lube the rod to diaphragm point and the apply is SO much smoother. never paid much attention there before. Just installed the rod and thought the old 86 cruise system was a little abrupt. Gotta remember that for the 200 mile trip to UMI in Aug which will be several hours using the cruise. Did I mention how nice it is have a cruise with a T56, SWEET.

So far haven't noticed any 3rd 4th shifting problems because of one of the three keys is not installed any more. Time will tell but it appears that can be something to deal with if, when, it's time to open up the T56 again.
One of the reason to pull the flywheel was to see if the freeze plugs in the back of the block were leaking, that was a, NO, they were fine. Tonight had antifreeze stains on the bell housing again, not as much as before. Before the Sat trip dropped two more dissolved stop leak pills in the rad. Did they help, maybe, but still need to find the pisser. Starting to suspect a head gasket at the back of #8. Can't be a head bolt as all the head bolts on a Dart block are blind. The leak appears to be more when I run the engine hard, more rpm, more cyl pressure. Just hate the thought of pulling the heads on this engine.

As far as the RST choice goes I think it was the right clutch at this time, my left leg is thankful, my wife will like the smoother engagement, as the disc break in feel should get better, rated at 700 lbft it's overkill, insurance.
Bob

#1062513 - 06/25/19 07:38 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss

One of the reason to pull the flywheel was to see if the freeze plugs in the back of the block were leaking, that was a, NO, they were fine. Tonight had antifreeze stains on the bell housing again, not as much as before. Before the Sat trip dropped two more dissolved stop leak pills in the rad. Did they help, maybe, but still need to find the pisser. Starting to suspect a head gasket at the back of #8. Can't be a head bolt as all the head bolts on a Dart block are blind. The leak appears to be more when I run the engine hard, more rpm, more cyl pressure. Just hate the thought of pulling the heads on this engine


any chance it could be from the intake? I've seen coolant run exactly down the seam between the head and block and enter the bellhousing on a small block chevy before...


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1062536 - 06/27/19 01:39 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Travis you got me thinking about a coolant leak at the rear of the intake. That's a very hard area to view with all the stuff located back there.
Because the intake gaskets are failing again (pushing the corners) it was time to pull the intake and look at gaskets. Have a 400 mile round trip in the car in Aug and needed to get that fixed before then. So last night pulled the intake and it's 100 little pieces to fix the gaskets.. The intake gaskets where oil soaked, but no sign of leaking at the coolant passages. Yep some of the bolts showed they had coolant on the threads but nothing to say they leaked. The amount of oil in the head passages and on the stem of the intake valves says the oil seeping at the intake gaskets has been a problem for awhile. The reason oil consumption has be more for this engine.

#1062540 - 06/27/19 02:40 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Having just pulled the intake on one of these, I commiserate...and feel your pain.

Hope you discover the leaky culprit soon...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062567 - 06/28/19 06:27 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Well the intake manifold is sitting on a bench at my TIG guys shop. Will have more material welded to the outside, top of the three runners I should have fixed when I had 5-7 area fixed. Hindsight,
Will be starting a new intake topic in ENGINES, Gotta put his RST topic to bed for awhile.

Have had the car out several times now, over 300 miles on the clutch. Break-in only about 1/2 done. I do believe it takes a lot of shifts and driving time to get the disc fully run in, there are now six faces instead of four that need to bed. Even though this is the smallest, lightest duty McLeod it's still good for 700 lbft, and the disc are not sprung so engagement can be snappy. I will give it time and see how it behaves at the end of the Summer.

The clutch linkage is now tweaked for best ratios obtainable. Pedal is very light, you have to relearn driving the clutch. Going from a very firm to a very comfortable pedal was a goal for the new clutch. YEA!
Still have to figure out how to check the disc air gap at full disengagement. The feel of the pedal as you engage the clutch tell you where engagement happens and the amount of travel below that is what you need to be careful about. After driving three different clutch in this car over the past 17 years you have a good idea how to drive this clutch. It's a feel thing right now.

Other than the coolant leak I'm chasing no signs of ATF anywhere yet so maybe the new front seal in the T56 fixed that. Trans vent tube leak fixed, no leaking at the speedo housing, no leaking from the rear seal, no leaking from the yoke plug in the driveshaft. YEA.

Trans 3/4 shifting is OK despite one of the three keys is laying on the bench. Neutral detent is the primary duty of the keys, neutral feels OK. Until it become necessary to fix that problem will continue to baby that 3/4 syncro. No interest in opening up the T56 again for parts.

The only issue I have with the whole clutch project is i still have a binding feel in the pedal when the engine is off. Drive the car down the road and it's not noticeable at all. Every piece of the linkage has been removed and R&R'ed, I know the binding is not in the linkage. There are three QA1 rod ends used. This binding has plagued this stick setup for all three clutches. The suspect is always the same, throwout bearing chattering on the bearing retainer when pressure is applied to disengage the clutch. Have installed three retainers over the years, the last one I had hard chromed which stopped the heavy wear on the retainer. Have chamfered the inner edges of the throwout bearing, used a moly lube on the friction areas. Just can't put my finger on a cure.

So much for this clutch project, it's time to move on, lots of other things need done. Retirement isn't easy, it keeps you real busy.
Later
Bob

#1062712 - 07/14/19 12:27 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Cool project. Might I ask how you installed your shifter boot to the console ?


83 ss monte, 383c.i., Holley 750, super 40's, 350 trans, 9" w/ 3.70's

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#1063252 - 08/21/19 05:06 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Prepping the 86 for a 400 mile road trip to UMI King of the Mountain event this weekend. Not participating, just spectating.

Pretty much happy with the new clutch engage/disengage. Pedal effort lighter, engagement high on the pedal and quick but not like the old ON/OFF clutch previously installed. Also found out why Mcleod says no slicks on a RST, organic disc heat quickly if not fully engaged. Had to slip the clutch one evening on wet grass, up hill, turning to the left. Didn't want to spin the tires, smelled the clutch. HUH?

Biggest complaint I have is with the engine off, pushing the pedal to the floor there is a chatter in the pedal the last 2" of the stroke. When driving the car this is not noticeable, only with the engine off.
The entire clurch linkage has been apart. New nylon bushing in the pedal shaft, Zbar pivot points are lubed and very good condition, linkage rods are not stock and use three QA1 rod ends, Lakewood fork in excellent condition, new Lakewood fork pivot stud, correct new Mcleod throwout bearing chamfered to relieve sharp edges, bearing retainer that throwout bearing rides on was hard chromed years ago and still in very good condition, fork to pressure plate fingers angle was optimized.

Have two location on the clutch pedal for the rod to the Zbar, Have two position on the Zbar's output side, fork side, which allows me four different locations and angles to the fork. The rod end at that location has spacers and an Allen bolt so full articulation of the joint is possible without bind. Have played with every location changing angles and height in relationship with the fork. Some are a little less chatter and of course moving the point up or down will effect fork travel, about 8%, and pedal effort.

Last night changed the fork return spring from a side attachment to the tip of the fork via a 3/16" steel rod fashioned to insert into holes in the fork. A temp solution to see if it help keep the fork moving squarely to the throwout bearing movement. This helped but still have a little chatter at the end of the pedal stroke. It's better but not gone all together. The car will go to UMI on Fri with that done.

My belief is the chatter is coming from the throwout as it slides down the bearing retainer, The throwout bearing is hardened steel, the retainer is hard chrome, high temp moly is the lube. Have been looking for info that would tell me this isn't a good material match, flame hardened steel and hard chrome but it's hard to find good opinion on that being the information highway has collapsed.

For now will live with the chatter and look to eliminate it this Winter. The T56 needs to come apart and have the 3/4 syncro R&R done. One of the three 3/4 solid keys was found stuck to the case magnet when i replaced the input shaft seal. Will baby the 3/4 shifts until that happens, currently it shift fine 98% of the time.

Off to UMI 6 am Fri morning.
Bob

#1063257 - 08/21/19 01:07 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 51
T5montecarlo Offline
Member
T5montecarlo  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2019
Posts: 51
Lederach, PA
Bob, do you remember pressing my clutch pedal when it had chatter with the engine off, but not when running? (think back about 17 years at a picnic gathering of the PA Monte Carlo Club) I took it apart and lubed the front bearing retainer and the inside of the release bearing, and no more chatter and a softer pedal.

The grease I used was whatever I had in the grease gun at the time. I was liberal with the grease since the bearing retainer and inside race of the bearing don't spin.

I agree, your issue is with the bearing-to-retainer fit.

Marc

#1063405 - 09/01/19 04:12 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
Pottstown, Pa
Mark, 17 years ago? Have trouble with what happened last week. I do remember Dingman's Ferry, actually took the wife's new 02 SS there, can't remember why the 86 didn't go that day.

This past week put 600 miles on the car, UMI event weekend was most of that. Now have 1100 miles since the end of May on the new clutch. Can say I've got an opinion on how I like it now. Changing the location of the fork return spring took most of the pedal chatter away. You can't feel it when driving the car, clutch engages very quickly, you would have a hard time noticing anything was wrong. The T56 may need to come out this Winter for a refresh, 3/4 synchro and gear chatter when lugging the main reason. The throwout bearing and retainer will be addressed again at that point. I'll just drive the car until that time.

Behind the 427 now three clutches have been used, Can honestly say the smoothest, easiest to drive and could handle the torque was the Centerforce 10 3/4" Dual friction. Light pedal effort , engagement was smooth pulling out and through all the gear changes. Bought a set of M/T drag radial and they were no problem with that clutch. Tire spin was the reason it worked well.

When I realized the car couldn't hook that set of tires, a set of Hoosier QTP slicks were bought, now the Centerforce was not able to handle that. A Clutch Science clutch with it's ceramic disc,rated at 700 ft/lb was installed. Hated it from day one, now I have an ON/OFF switch for a clutch. Suffered for 8 years, about 15k miles until it was worn out, time to try the twin disc I always thought the car needed but cringed at the price.

The RST

#1063408 - 09/01/19 05:23 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
Pottstown, Pa
Mark, 17 years ago? Have trouble with what happened last week. I do remember Dingman's Ferry, actually took the wife's new 02 SS there, can't remember why the 86 didn't go that day.

This past week put 600 miles on the car, UMI event weekend was most of that. Now have 1100 miles since the end of May on the new clutch. Can say I've got an opinion on how I like it now. Changing the location of the fork return spring took most of the pedal chatter away. You can't feel it when driving the car, clutch engages very quickly, you would have a hard time noticing anything was wrong. The T56 may need to come out this Winter for a refresh, 3/4 synchro and gear chatter when lugging the main reason. The throwout bearing and retainer will be addressed again at that point. I'll just drive the car until that time.

Behind the 427 now three clutches have been used. Can honestly say the smoothest, easiest to drive and could handle the torque was the Centerforce 10 3/4" Dual Friction. Light pedal effort , engagement was smooth pulling out and through all the gear changes. Bought a set of M/T drag radial and they were no problem with that clutch. Tire spin was the reason it worked well.

When I realized the car couldn't hook that set of tires, a set of Hoosier QTP slicks were bought, now the Centerforce was not able to handle that. A Clutch Science clutch with it's ceramic disc,rated at 700 ft/lb was installed. Hated it from day one, now I have an ON/OFF switch for a clutch. Suffered for 8 years, about 15k miles until it was worn out, time to try the twin disc I always thought the car needed but cringed at the price.

The RST rated at 800 also has aggressive engagement, nothing like the previous ceramic disc. This due partly because it's a twin disc but i think mostly because the disc don't have a sprung hub. Depending on the spring rate of those 6 springs in the disc impacts engagement. No springs and engagement is harsher. I get that.
The difference between the RST and the RXT Mcleod clutches is only the disc used. RST is organic, RXT is ceramic and why they hold 1000 ft/lb. Pedal effort is the same because static pressure plate rating is the same. My thinking for not buying the RXT was expecting it to be an ON/OFF engagement due to the ceramic disc. After living with an overly aggressive engagement wasn't going ceramic again.

The RST being organic disc get hot very quickly. McLeod says not to use slicks with it, you will overheat the clutch and cook it if you allow slippage. I learned how quickly the clutch gets hot while slipping it to avoid tire spin on wet grass. Not good! I learned from that event, don't slip the clutch.

A local garage has done a few RAM twin installs on new Mustangs and Dodges, says it's a new driving experience getting used to it's behavior. This past weekend at UMI where almost all the car were stick and had twins to contain the mega hp they made watching and listening to then rolling out of their pit area you could see, hear, the quick, harsh clutch engagement, Mary Possi was driving the Speedway 2nd gen Camaro, she had a hell of a time with the clutch, stalled the car numerous times on Fri. in the pits.

So not buying the RXT was a smart move. The RST is a good choice for a street car with loads of torque. Once engaged it won't slip. You need to get used to it's abrupt engagement. For me with 500 ft/lb, a 1st gear gear ratio of 12.2 (2.97x4.11) it should never slip once engaged. I just have to be careful and avoid the slipping the clutch on wet grass while navigating a 50' incline.

Always wanted a twin in the car, final have what I wanted, will live with it for the coming years and learn it traits and how to drive it. No going back to that sweet Centerforce I had many moons ago.
Bob

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