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#1062507 - 06/25/19 04:44 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
On Fri had to put the priorities in order. First pickup a new water heater in the afternoon, get the 86 out for some miles on the clutch and fill the tank for the Sat trip to Carlisle, wash the car and make it a 50 footer again. Sat up early to be parked in Carlisle by 9. Oh, water heater I did sweat the copper lines in on Sun afternoon after a Cars and Coffee thing in the morning. You need to get your priorities in order.

Very happy with the clutch pedal effort, easy to push. It takes some getting used to, seems to grab high in the pedal stroke. Pulling out in 1st gear requires just a little finesse to leave softly. I do think as the disc get broke in this will get better. Once moving the up shifts are much smoother than the previous clutch. When downshifting the clutch bites abruptly, this I think due to the fact the dics don't have a spring hub.

Have been playing with the linkage changing ratios of the arms to try and optimize the clutch engagement verses pedal travel. Did some measurements tonight of the various travel points in the linkage, the fork rod being the most important. Currently 1" travel at the end of the fork which translate to .466" at the throwout bearing, this includes the freeplay. Standard GM fork ratio is 2.33:1. Will make a call to McLeod to pick there brain about finger travel on these clutches. Because the intent is that this new RST needs to be the clutch for the future it needs to be made as good as it can get now.

The 115 mile trip to Carlisle Sat went flawlessly. The alternator R&R done earlier in the week was a success. With the cruise set at 72, engine running at 2400 rpm , A/F meter showing a consistent 15.2, mpg was 21 for the 235 round trip. Not bad for a 427 SBC with an antique carb, 4.11 gears and an R12 A/C cranking.

Only when a long turnpike trip is on the schedule does the carb to cruise diaphragm rod get installed, all other times it's pulled off. I did learn a little lesson about how to make the cruise operate a little smoother at turnpike speed. Simply lube the rod to diaphragm point and the apply is SO much smoother. never paid much attention there before. Just installed the rod and thought the old 86 cruise system was a little abrupt. Gotta remember that for the 200 mile trip to UMI in Aug which will be several hours using the cruise. Did I mention how nice it is have a cruise with a T56, SWEET.

So far haven't noticed any 3rd 4th shifting problems because of one of the three keys is not installed any more. Time will tell but it appears that can be something to deal with if, when, it's time to open up the T56 again.
One of the reason to pull the flywheel was to see if the freeze plugs in the back of the block were leaking, that was a, NO, they were fine. Tonight had antifreeze stains on the bell housing again, not as much as before. Before the Sat trip dropped two more dissolved stop leak pills in the rad. Did they help, maybe, but still need to find the pisser. Starting to suspect a head gasket at the back of #8. Can't be a head bolt as all the head bolts on a Dart block are blind. The leak appears to be more when I run the engine hard, more rpm, more cyl pressure. Just hate the thought of pulling the heads on this engine.

As far as the RST choice goes I think it was the right clutch at this time, my left leg is thankful, my wife will like the smoother engagement, as the disc break in feel should get better, rated at 700 lbft it's overkill, insurance.
Bob

#1062513 - 06/25/19 07:38 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jun 2006
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Travis Jones Offline
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Travis Jones  Offline
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Ferndale, MI
Originally Posted by mmc427ss

One of the reason to pull the flywheel was to see if the freeze plugs in the back of the block were leaking, that was a, NO, they were fine. Tonight had antifreeze stains on the bell housing again, not as much as before. Before the Sat trip dropped two more dissolved stop leak pills in the rad. Did they help, maybe, but still need to find the pisser. Starting to suspect a head gasket at the back of #8. Can't be a head bolt as all the head bolts on a Dart block are blind. The leak appears to be more when I run the engine hard, more rpm, more cyl pressure. Just hate the thought of pulling the heads on this engine


any chance it could be from the intake? I've seen coolant run exactly down the seam between the head and block and enter the bellhousing on a small block chevy before...


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1062536 - 06/27/19 01:39 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2000
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Pottstown, Pa
Travis you got me thinking about a coolant leak at the rear of the intake. That's a very hard area to view with all the stuff located back there.
Because the intake gaskets are failing again (pushing the corners) it was time to pull the intake and look at gaskets. Have a 400 mile round trip in the car in Aug and needed to get that fixed before then. So last night pulled the intake and it's 100 little pieces to fix the gaskets.. The intake gaskets where oil soaked, but no sign of leaking at the coolant passages. Yep some of the bolts showed they had coolant on the threads but nothing to say they leaked. The amount of oil in the head passages and on the stem of the intake valves says the oil seeping at the intake gaskets has been a problem for awhile. The reason oil consumption has be more for this engine.

#1062540 - 06/27/19 02:40 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,990
SSLance Online content
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SSLance  Online Content
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,990
Peoria, AZ
Having just pulled the intake on one of these, I commiserate...and feel your pain.

Hope you discover the leaky culprit soon...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1062567 - 06/28/19 06:27 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
Pottstown, Pa
Well the intake manifold is sitting on a bench at my TIG guys shop. Will have more material welded to the outside, top of the three runners I should have fixed when I had 5-7 area fixed. Hindsight,
Will be starting a new intake topic in ENGINES, Gotta put his RST topic to bed for awhile.

Have had the car out several times now, over 300 miles on the clutch. Break-in only about 1/2 done. I do believe it takes a lot of shifts and driving time to get the disc fully run in, there are now six faces instead of four that need to bed. Even though this is the smallest, lightest duty McLeod it's still good for 700 lbft, and the disc are not sprung so engagement can be snappy. I will give it time and see how it behaves at the end of the Summer.

The clutch linkage is now tweaked for best ratios obtainable. Pedal is very light, you have to relearn driving the clutch. Going from a very firm to a very comfortable pedal was a goal for the new clutch. YEA!
Still have to figure out how to check the disc air gap at full disengagement. The feel of the pedal as you engage the clutch tell you where engagement happens and the amount of travel below that is what you need to be careful about. After driving three different clutch in this car over the past 17 years you have a good idea how to drive this clutch. It's a feel thing right now.

Other than the coolant leak I'm chasing no signs of ATF anywhere yet so maybe the new front seal in the T56 fixed that. Trans vent tube leak fixed, no leaking at the speedo housing, no leaking from the rear seal, no leaking from the yoke plug in the driveshaft. YEA.

Trans 3/4 shifting is OK despite one of the three keys is laying on the bench. Neutral detent is the primary duty of the keys, neutral feels OK. Until it become necessary to fix that problem will continue to baby that 3/4 syncro. No interest in opening up the T56 again for parts.

The only issue I have with the whole clutch project is i still have a binding feel in the pedal when the engine is off. Drive the car down the road and it's not noticeable at all. Every piece of the linkage has been removed and R&R'ed, I know the binding is not in the linkage. There are three QA1 rod ends used. This binding has plagued this stick setup for all three clutches. The suspect is always the same, throwout bearing chattering on the bearing retainer when pressure is applied to disengage the clutch. Have installed three retainers over the years, the last one I had hard chromed which stopped the heavy wear on the retainer. Have chamfered the inner edges of the throwout bearing, used a moly lube on the friction areas. Just can't put my finger on a cure.

So much for this clutch project, it's time to move on, lots of other things need done. Retirement isn't easy, it keeps you real busy.
Later
Bob

#1062712 - 07/14/19 12:27 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Aug 2007
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pearl83SS Offline
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pearl83SS  Offline
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Chicago
Cool project. Might I ask how you installed your shifter boot to the console ?


83 ss monte, 383c.i., Holley 750, super 40's, 350 trans, 9" w/ 3.70's

http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x67/pearl83SS/
#1063252 - 08/21/19 05:06 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
Pottstown, Pa
Prepping the 86 for a 400 mile road trip to UMI King of the Mountain event this weekend. Not participating, just spectating.

Pretty much happy with the new clutch engage/disengage. Pedal effort lighter, engagement high on the pedal and quick but not like the old ON/OFF clutch previously installed. Also found out why Mcleod says no slicks on a RST, organic disc heat quickly if not fully engaged. Had to slip the clutch one evening on wet grass, up hill, turning to the left. Didn't want to spin the tires, smelled the clutch. HUH?

Biggest complaint I have is with the engine off, pushing the pedal to the floor there is a chatter in the pedal the last 2" of the stroke. When driving the car this is not noticeable, only with the engine off.
The entire clurch linkage has been apart. New nylon bushing in the pedal shaft, Zbar pivot points are lubed and very good condition, linkage rods are not stock and use three QA1 rod ends, Lakewood fork in excellent condition, new Lakewood fork pivot stud, correct new Mcleod throwout bearing chamfered to relieve sharp edges, bearing retainer that throwout bearing rides on was hard chromed years ago and still in very good condition, fork to pressure plate fingers angle was optimized.

Have two location on the clutch pedal for the rod to the Zbar, Have two position on the Zbar's output side, fork side, which allows me four different locations and angles to the fork. The rod end at that location has spacers and an Allen bolt so full articulation of the joint is possible without bind. Have played with every location changing angles and height in relationship with the fork. Some are a little less chatter and of course moving the point up or down will effect fork travel, about 8%, and pedal effort.

Last night changed the fork return spring from a side attachment to the tip of the fork via a 3/16" steel rod fashioned to insert into holes in the fork. A temp solution to see if it help keep the fork moving squarely to the throwout bearing movement. This helped but still have a little chatter at the end of the pedal stroke. It's better but not gone all together. The car will go to UMI on Fri with that done.

My belief is the chatter is coming from the throwout as it slides down the bearing retainer, The throwout bearing is hardened steel, the retainer is hard chrome, high temp moly is the lube. Have been looking for info that would tell me this isn't a good material match, flame hardened steel and hard chrome but it's hard to find good opinion on that being the information highway has collapsed.

For now will live with the chatter and look to eliminate it this Winter. The T56 needs to come apart and have the 3/4 syncro R&R done. One of the three 3/4 solid keys was found stuck to the case magnet when i replaced the input shaft seal. Will baby the 3/4 shifts until that happens, currently it shift fine 98% of the time.

Off to UMI 6 am Fri morning.
Bob

#1063257 - 08/21/19 01:07 PM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 51
T5montecarlo Offline
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Joined: May 2019
Posts: 51
Lederach, PA
Bob, do you remember pressing my clutch pedal when it had chatter with the engine off, but not when running? (think back about 17 years at a picnic gathering of the PA Monte Carlo Club) I took it apart and lubed the front bearing retainer and the inside of the release bearing, and no more chatter and a softer pedal.

The grease I used was whatever I had in the grease gun at the time. I was liberal with the grease since the bearing retainer and inside race of the bearing don't spin.

I agree, your issue is with the bearing-to-retainer fit.

Marc

#1063405 - 09/01/19 04:12 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
Mark, 17 years ago? Have trouble with what happened last week. I do remember Dingman's Ferry, actually took the wife's new 02 SS there, can't remember why the 86 didn't go that day.

This past week put 600 miles on the car, UMI event weekend was most of that. Now have 1100 miles since the end of May on the new clutch. Can say I've got an opinion on how I like it now. Changing the location of the fork return spring took most of the pedal chatter away. You can't feel it when driving the car, clutch engages very quickly, you would have a hard time noticing anything was wrong. The T56 may need to come out this Winter for a refresh, 3/4 synchro and gear chatter when lugging the main reason. The throwout bearing and retainer will be addressed again at that point. I'll just drive the car until that time.

Behind the 427 now three clutches have been used, Can honestly say the smoothest, easiest to drive and could handle the torque was the Centerforce 10 3/4" Dual friction. Light pedal effort , engagement was smooth pulling out and through all the gear changes. Bought a set of M/T drag radial and they were no problem with that clutch. Tire spin was the reason it worked well.

When I realized the car couldn't hook that set of tires, a set of Hoosier QTP slicks were bought, now the Centerforce was not able to handle that. A Clutch Science clutch with it's ceramic disc,rated at 700 ft/lb was installed. Hated it from day one, now I have an ON/OFF switch for a clutch. Suffered for 8 years, about 15k miles until it was worn out, time to try the twin disc I always thought the car needed but cringed at the price.

The RST

#1063408 - 09/01/19 05:23 AM Re: McLeod RST clutch install [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,422
Pottstown, Pa
Mark, 17 years ago? Have trouble with what happened last week. I do remember Dingman's Ferry, actually took the wife's new 02 SS there, can't remember why the 86 didn't go that day.

This past week put 600 miles on the car, UMI event weekend was most of that. Now have 1100 miles since the end of May on the new clutch. Can say I've got an opinion on how I like it now. Changing the location of the fork return spring took most of the pedal chatter away. You can't feel it when driving the car, clutch engages very quickly, you would have a hard time noticing anything was wrong. The T56 may need to come out this Winter for a refresh, 3/4 synchro and gear chatter when lugging the main reason. The throwout bearing and retainer will be addressed again at that point. I'll just drive the car until that time.

Behind the 427 now three clutches have been used. Can honestly say the smoothest, easiest to drive and could handle the torque was the Centerforce 10 3/4" Dual Friction. Light pedal effort , engagement was smooth pulling out and through all the gear changes. Bought a set of M/T drag radial and they were no problem with that clutch. Tire spin was the reason it worked well.

When I realized the car couldn't hook that set of tires, a set of Hoosier QTP slicks were bought, now the Centerforce was not able to handle that. A Clutch Science clutch with it's ceramic disc,rated at 700 ft/lb was installed. Hated it from day one, now I have an ON/OFF switch for a clutch. Suffered for 8 years, about 15k miles until it was worn out, time to try the twin disc I always thought the car needed but cringed at the price.

The RST rated at 800 also has aggressive engagement, nothing like the previous ceramic disc. This due partly because it's a twin disc but i think mostly because the disc don't have a sprung hub. Depending on the spring rate of those 6 springs in the disc impacts engagement. No springs and engagement is harsher. I get that.
The difference between the RST and the RXT Mcleod clutches is only the disc used. RST is organic, RXT is ceramic and why they hold 1000 ft/lb. Pedal effort is the same because static pressure plate rating is the same. My thinking for not buying the RXT was expecting it to be an ON/OFF engagement due to the ceramic disc. After living with an overly aggressive engagement wasn't going ceramic again.

The RST being organic disc get hot very quickly. McLeod says not to use slicks with it, you will overheat the clutch and cook it if you allow slippage. I learned how quickly the clutch gets hot while slipping it to avoid tire spin on wet grass. Not good! I learned from that event, don't slip the clutch.

A local garage has done a few RAM twin installs on new Mustangs and Dodges, says it's a new driving experience getting used to it's behavior. This past weekend at UMI where almost all the car were stick and had twins to contain the mega hp they made watching and listening to then rolling out of their pit area you could see, hear, the quick, harsh clutch engagement, Mary Possi was driving the Speedway 2nd gen Camaro, she had a hell of a time with the clutch, stalled the car numerous times on Fri. in the pits.

So not buying the RXT was a smart move. The RST is a good choice for a street car with loads of torque. Once engaged it won't slip. You need to get used to it's abrupt engagement. For me with 500 ft/lb, a 1st gear gear ratio of 12.2 (2.97x4.11) it should never slip once engaged. I just have to be careful and avoid the slipping the clutch on wet grass while navigating a 50' incline.

Always wanted a twin in the car, final have what I wanted, will live with it for the coming years and learn it traits and how to drive it. No going back to that sweet Centerforce I had many moons ago.
Bob

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