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#1058405 - 07/29/18 07:02 PM Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver  
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Breathial Offline
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Chester Springs, PA
Hello, all. Starting a new thread, hope it turns out ok. Relocated to the Philly region last year.

I've had nice cars over the years, the latest sedan being a Mercedes E350 that did well, and an '06 3/4-ton 4x4 Suburban, both with low miles, both quite comfortable and reasonably powerful. But I've been building cars for about 30 years, including a few 1st-gen Camaros, and my last project was a '36 Ford 5-window coupe that started out as basically a flat-bed trailer of rusty parts. When it left, it was intact and running with a custom frame, M2 front, Ford 9" rear triangulated 4-link rear, a 3" chop and suicide doors.

But those projects are HARD work... or HUGE $$$, one or the other. I'm too tired to do the hard-work build any more, and yet I want a cool driver that I can tinker with, and enjoy over the next several years. It has to be powerful, reliable, economical. Oh, and it has to go together on a tiny budget... basically as cheap as I can get it. Which means, if a factory setup will do as well as spending $500 on a "sexy" serpentine pulley setup, I'll go factory. While a lot of people are impressed by some new "spiffy" thing, I'm far more impressed by guys that build cars on a budget, and are smart about saving money. It just what gets me jazzed.

This line of thinking is also why I'm going old-school. New cars are STUPID expensive, depreciate 25% when they roll off the dealer lot, and you never, EVER get that money back. rant

So I'm building my own, it'll be much cheaper than a new one, it'll be what I want, and it'll be my daily driver, NOT just a garage/trailer-queen.

With all of that in mind, I recently purchased maybe the ONLY MCSS in the area that's available and NOT a complete rust-bucket, for $5k. Old paint, a lot of dents, but the bones are good, and I won't have to chop out the floor and rear frame to have a nice driver. My favorite color is burgundy metallic, but I bought this silver one, because it was NOT a rust-bucket (and you'd be amazed at how people think their rust-riddled rolling turd is a gold nugget... no)

[Linked Image]

After fighting with the carb, finally ordering a new one, it starts and drives reasonably well. Of course, with 190HP on tap (and I consider that rating extremely optimistic), I have to push it hard to keep up with other traffic in relatively light, zippy cars. Right after I put the new carb on it, I was at a stoplight, and some little granny in a newish Honda Accord stood on it, as the light went green. I though, "ok, let's see how mine does..." As I should have guessed, granny SMOKED me... and she literally didn't even know I was there... Unreal... blush

Next fill-up, with new carb, and I find my slug of a car is making 13 MPG, general running around.

I'd sold my Benz AND my clean Suburban, to reduce overhead, and also reduce my fuel bill (as Sub was 16MPG highway, 12 in the city). This is NOT the kind of start I was looking for.

Last edited by Breathial; 07/29/18 07:08 PM.
#1058406 - 07/29/18 08:04 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Breathial Offline
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So I'm debating what to do. 454 BBC or a 400SBC with Vortec heads...? Hmmm, the HP potential using Vortec heads seems like a no-brainer. So yeah, I decide to got this direction, figure I can build an engine that makes reasonable HP, and still gets great fuel economy. And while I'm trying to find a decent core, I stumble across a LQ4 6.0 LS engine, with freshly rebuilt heads (still unassembled) for $800. I'm thinking, "ok, for that price, I've GOT to check it out." The short-block is a mystery-motor, don't *really* know if it ran or if it's totally destroyed... but what the heck, for that price, I'm willing to take a gamble. I come home with the complete package (from a 2005 GMC van) in the back of my S-10 Blazer.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I guess I won't be doing a Vortec 400 any time soon... doh

#1058407 - 07/29/18 08:24 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Breathial Offline
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So I order up two books "How to Rebuild LS-Series Engines" and "GM LS-Series Engines The Complete Swap Manual," and a harmonic-damper puller tool, and get to work on disassembly.

Costs to date:
$800 engine
$84.99 engine stand (Advance Auto)
$39.74 books (Amazon, free shipping)
$51.01 Harmonic damper removal and install tools (Amazon)

The engine was leaking oil like a sieve, the valley cover had been R&R'ed at least once, and when I pulled the pan, someone has scratched into the grime on the bottom of one of the rod caps (enough to mark it, but not damage it). I also found this on the oil pump pickup:

[Linked Image]

Ominous...

As I pulled pistons, there appeared to be no damage, though they were disgustingly dirty. I started to pull bolts for the main bearings, and this is what came out of the oil galleries...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

While that LOOKS like RTV, it's actually sludge inside the oil galleries. I continued to disassemble, started with the rear (#5) main, and it looked ok. But got to the front, and the sludge had clearly caused oil starvation, wiping out #1 and #2 main bearings:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Corresponding main cap bearings:

[Linked Image]

The #1 journal:

[Linked Image]

The #2 journal:

[Linked Image]




Last edited by Breathial; 07/29/18 08:25 PM.
#1058408 - 07/29/18 08:53 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Breathial Offline
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I spend a little time figuring out what works, to clean the pistons and rods in the hopes that I can reuse them. I used several different solvents to experiment, but found simply chipping off the old crap with a flat-blade screwdriver, paint scraper or exacto knife (depending on need) worked much better. The oil-control rings literally had so much sludge built in that they were literally glued to the pistons.

[Linked Image]

When I pulled the cam, the #3 camshaft bearing came loose with the cam. The camshaft looked in decent condition, but there was some metal deposition from the cam bearing onto the cam, so that'll have to be replaced. The lifters, when I finally forced them out of their bores (stuck due to more than a decade of poor maintenance) were full of the same muck as the oil journals. They all went into the garbage can.

Due to work constraints, I'll take the block, cranks, rods and pistons to the local machine shop Tuesday, along with some of the bolts, covers, other stuff that needs to be hot-tanked. Hopefully I'll know by Friday whether the crank can be saved by turning it down, and whether I can re-use the pistons.

The performance goals for this engine are actually pretty mild. According to Pypes Exhaust (at http://pypesexhaust.com/p-13194-dyno-tests.html) the Monte Carlo delivered 156 HP and 223 lbs-ft of torque at the rear wheels, in stock form). I'd like to see 300 RWHP, and maybe 350 lbs-ft of torque, with the replacement powerplant. For this LQ4 engine, it means I should be able to run mostly stock (if not all OEM pieces) and rely on tune and spark curves, to get me where I need to be.

The other side of the equation is to have >=25 MPG on the highway, at least 18 MPG in the city (matches my winter beater). It'll all depend on the tune, and the ability to tune it myself, quickly, using wide-band 02 sensors and a laptop. In other words, with my goal to be as low-$ as possible while still attaining the goals (giving equal priority to power, fuel economy and reliability), I'm going to use a megasquirt system, probably the MS-2 enhanced version. It'll use the truck intake manifold (but drive-by-cable), the 200R4 that's already in the car ( and seems to operate well, and it already has a mild shift-kit in it and a trans-cooler), and an external fuel pump.

The books I bought have been extremely disappointing to me; most of the information I'd already found on this site (as well as the LS1 forums), and their overall advice may be good for the newb who has more $$$ than brains and technical knowledge.. but I was sorely disappointed in the utter lack of anything meaningful, in the way of technical details. furious

Last edited by Breathial; 07/29/18 09:04 PM.
#1058411 - 07/30/18 01:43 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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I've got an LS3 cam and matching valve springs for $200 if you want them. Made 350/375 to the wheels in my car.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058412 - 07/30/18 02:09 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Travis Jones]  
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Thanks for the offer... but I've got the older LS2 setup... 3-bolt cam gear, 1x sensor at the back of the cam. Honestly, I'd prefer to avoid doing more mods than absolutely necessary. I even found a CTS-V cam/lifter/springs/pushrods setup for $225 on Flea-bay, but run into the same problem... Again, thanks for the offer.

I'd read your entire build thread, but I'm glad you posted- I've book-marked it for future reference again. God knows, there's gonna' be plenty of a learning-curve on this one.... I'd been working on big-blocks since the late 90's, never really paid attention to any other platforms, so I've got plenty to catch up on... think

In the meantime, if you see where I'm about to screw the proverbial pooch on something, be sure to let me know... I'm not too proud to take advice from those who've already bloodied their knuckles doing the same job!

givemebeer

<<<EDIT>>>

You know how sometimes you wake up with a new, key piece of information in your head? That just happened. Using megasquirt the cam sensor probably won't be an issue... Hmmm.....

Last edited by Breathial; 07/30/18 10:37 AM.
#1058418 - 07/30/18 03:20 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Good luck with the swap... Being one of those in the "anti-LS" camp, I'm afraid I can't be much help except to offer condolences on the poor condition of the core.

What trans are you going to use? Staying with the 200R4?

And BTW, I regularly get 20+ mpg with my 467 hp, 525 ft lb Quadrajet fed SBC... wink


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1058423 - 07/30/18 08:13 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Good luck with the swap... Being one of those in the "anti-LS" camp, I'm afraid I can't be much help except to offer condolences on the poor condition of the core.

What trans are you going to use? Staying with the 200R4?

And BTW, I regularly get 20+ mpg with my 467 hp, 525 ft lb Quadrajet fed SBC... wink


You ever toss yours on a chassis dyno?


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058424 - 07/30/18 09:57 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: SSLance]  
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Breathial Offline
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Originally Posted by SSLance
What trans are you going to use? Staying with the 200R4?


Yep, that's the plan.

#1058427 - 07/31/18 01:02 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Travis Jones]  
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SSLance Offline
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Originally Posted by thepezking639


You ever toss yours on a chassis dyno?


Nope, just the engine builders dyno... https://youtu.be/XaUdKaLlZpQ

[Linked Image]


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1058433 - 07/31/18 12:23 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Originally Posted by Breathial
Thanks for the offer... but I've got the older LS2 setup... 3-bolt cam gear, 1x sensor at the back of the cam. Honestly, I'd prefer to avoid doing more mods than absolutely necessary. I even found a CTS-V cam/lifter/springs/pushrods setup for $225 on Flea-bay, but run into the same problem... Again, thanks for the offer.

I'd read your entire build thread, but I'm glad you posted- I've book-marked it for future reference again. God knows, there's gonna' be plenty of a learning-curve on this one.... I'd been working on big-blocks since the late 90's, never really paid attention to any other platforms, so I've got plenty to catch up on... think

In the meantime, if you see where I'm about to screw the proverbial pooch on something, be sure to let me know... I'm not too proud to take advice from those who've already bloodied their knuckles doing the same job!

givemebeer

<<<EDIT>>>

You know how sometimes you wake up with a new, key piece of information in your head? That just happened. Using megasquirt the cam sensor probably won't be an issue... Hmmm.....


Regarding Megasquirt, I really like the megasquirt family of ECU's. that being said they are not without their limitations. I chose Microsquirt, because a friend gave me one for free. If i had to do it over again and had a little more budget, I'd provably have gone for the MS3pro, or even used a factory ECU and harness. Not having Idle Air Control on my car kind of sucks for fuel economy and Idle, but my car is not a daily driver, its a toy.

You'll like the LS2 cam, practically the same as the LS3 cam. should make 325-350 to the tire easy. I'd buy a set of new LS2/3 valve springs for $70 for a bit of piece of mind, though. I spun mine up to about 6500rpm no problem. its a baby cam really.

The areas where I see people "screw the pooch" the most is throwing carbs on these things, or not changing lifters when the heads are off. LS motors even from the factory tend to be rough on lifters. also people who put high pressure/high volume oil pumps. GM factory pumps are good for 95% of LS applications. oh and people who swap out the truck manifolds for car intakes, sure they are ugly, but the truck intakes make waaay more power and torque.

if your motor is a 2005 it might have the have the GEN IV rods, if you do, these rods are good to 1000hp. reuse them if they are in good condition, google gen 3 vs gen 4 rods to see which ones you have. even if you only have gen III rods, they are still plenty strong for your application. If you have to replace your pistons you may consider moving to a flat top piston from an LQ9.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058439 - 07/31/18 03:19 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Travis Jones]  
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Breathial Offline
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I know it has the Gen-IV rods. I just dropped the whole short-block off at the machine shop this morning... and they're backlogged, so it'll be a while before I know where I'm at. The initial inspection of the block looked ok, the crank mains are questionable. The #3 cam bearing came out with the cam, so the block may require machining the cam bearing bores oversized; we'll see. And of course, they'll check the piston bores. The cross-hatching wasn't too visible, but OTOH I didn't feel any ridges in the bores, so again, we'll see...

In the meantime, I'll be working to acquire other parts needed- exhaust, wire-harness pigtails, a drive-by-cable throttle body, etc. crazy

I'll have to look at the IAC issue versus the MS2 system. I believe it has the capability, but this reminds me to double-check. Thanks for the feedback on that. As to going with a carb, I decided to go EFI as this will be my summer driver, and I'd like the ability to tune for maximum economy while cruising down the highway. I know that you can theoretically get a carb to match the efficiency of EFI, but honestly, I don't have the patience for that sort of thing... I'd rather have auto-tune capabilities and be able to see what's happening real-time via a laptop. And honestly, looking at the costs to do a carb setup versus factory-style EFI, a budget fuel system and ECU, I think the costs are actually about the same. So... I'll go EFI. cool

#1058442 - 07/31/18 04:25 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Originally Posted by Breathial
I know it has the Gen-IV rods. I just dropped the whole short-block off at the machine shop this morning... and they're backlogged, so it'll be a while before I know where I'm at. The initial inspection of the block looked ok, the crank mains are questionable. The #3 cam bearing came out with the cam, so the block may require machining the cam bearing bores oversized; we'll see. And of course, they'll check the piston bores. The cross-hatching wasn't too visible, but OTOH I didn't feel any ridges in the bores, so again, we'll see...

In the meantime, I'll be working to acquire other parts needed- exhaust, wire-harness pigtails, a drive-by-cable throttle body, etc. crazy

I'll have to look at the IAC issue versus the MS2 system. I believe it has the capability, but this reminds me to double-check. Thanks for the feedback on that. As to going with a carb, I decided to go EFI as this will be my summer driver, and I'd like the ability to tune for maximum economy while cruising down the highway. I know that you can theoretically get a carb to match the efficiency of EFI, but honestly, I don't have the patience for that sort of thing... I'd rather have auto-tune capabilities and be able to see what's happening real-time via a laptop. And honestly, looking at the costs to do a carb setup versus factory-style EFI, a budget fuel system and ECU, I think the costs are actually about the same. So... I'll go EFI. cool


If you want IAC, and fuel economy, I'd spend the money for an MS3 system and run sequential fuel injection. You will still get the easy to use interface of tunerstudio. but it is a much more capable ECU, and a future upgrade I am considering.

For headers, if you want long tubes look up the Speed engineering G-body headers, they fit with just a little bit of work and at less than $300 its a good deal. They work with the Holley mounts, which i am a fan of. Try and find a trailblazer SS or 2010 up 5.3l intake, they make great midrange torque and do look better than the truck manifolds, but you'll have to make your own TV cable brackets. for a DBC throttle body, i run a cheap EBAY 92mm G-plus, i think its the same company that makes the value holley ones.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058496 - 08/04/18 11:32 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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reading your build ( I replied in your other post also) . I see your wanting a budget daily driver. I am no LS expert , I have done several swaps and cam changes though. I work on a budget base also so I spend where needed. you will need a correct pan and mounts. I use HOLLEY exclusively now. spend your money once .


86 SS . Custom Paint. Built 6.0 with LS3 Top End .TSP Custom grind cam.TKO 600 5 spd. Quick 9'' / 3.70 Gearing. ZQ8 Spindles. KORE3 12.8'' frt Brake Kit. UMI Rear Adjustable UCA. Rear LCA. UMI Front Chassis Bar. BMR Coil Springs. BMR Rear Sway Bar. N90 17'' Wheels . 255/45-17 Nitto 555 G2's. SO FAR..............lol.
#1058500 - 08/04/18 03:36 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: axld]  
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Originally Posted by axld
reading your build ( I replied in your other post also) . I see your wanting a budget daily driver. I am no LS expert , I have done several swaps and cam changes though. I work on a budget base also so I spend where needed. you will need a correct pan and mounts. I use HOLLEY exclusively now. spend your money once .



I agree here, completely. with the exception of the $1000+ stainless headers. for the SLIGHT modification that the speed engineering headers need, I'd recommend those with the holley mounts and pan.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058507 - 08/05/18 12:30 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Good luck... coming from a rust bucket


1988 Monte Carlo SS LS Project Car [Build][Instagram]
#1058508 - 08/05/18 01:56 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Breathial Offline
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So I'm snooping around a LOT, regarding the cam and valve-train choices. The stock cam- if I polished it- could yield ~325 RWHP, and similar torque, easily meeting my goals. If I want to go the ultimately cheap route, this'd do. But I have to replace the rest of the valve-train; the lifters were full of goop, the springs are in an unknown condition, the cam spun #3 bearing (and is now suspect). The factory LQ4 cam specs out (@ .050") 196/207 degrees, lift of .467/.479, and LSA of 116. So I'm thinking, the next step up, the LS2 cam at 204/211, .520/.520 lift and the same LSA of 116. Nice bump up, but not too crazy. Certainly, I'm not interested in the lopey "set on kill" type of idle. For me, subtle is good.

[It also happened to be listed on EBay for $225 (used, good shape) with lifters, springs and pushrods. But by the time I decided to pull the trigger on it, it was already sold.]

That cam runs about $300 new, and other aftermarket manufacturers are $400 and UP! For such a small incremental change, it just doesn't seem worth it. Enter the LS9 cam, GM Part # 12638427, which is designed to run in the supercharged Vette and Cad 6.2L engines. It specs at 211/230 duration, .558/.552 lift and an idle-friendly LSA of 122.5 degrees. It bleeds off a bit of the torque lower in the RPM band (which is good when running a factory rear-end and a 200R4 where the amount of upgrades (beyond shift kit and cooler) are unknown. Best of all, the cam costs $120, and doesn't require any 'sexy' stuff; just good-condition factory gear will be sufficient.

Costs to date: $1267.95
$800 engine
$84.99 engine stand (Advance Auto)
$39.74 books (Amazon, free shipping)
$51.01 Harmonic damper install & removal tools
$118.22 LS-9 Camshaft (EBay)
$108.99 LS-7 Roller lifters plus 4 guides (EBay)
$65 Blue GM Beehive LS springs (EBay)

I'm debating whether to include the costs for the engine stand, books and specific tools.

Last edited by Breathial; 08/05/18 08:42 PM.
#1058516 - 08/06/18 02:53 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Travis Jones Offline
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I would strongly recommend something other than a GM factory cam, especially the LS9 cam for an NA applicaiton. 122.5 is absurd for an NA motor. The LS motor responds so well to camshafts that it's often the cheapest $ per HP you'll pay. Also for the LS9 if you run a factory computer you will have to run a different cam gear and cam sensor... just FYI.

If i were you, I would check out the Summit LS pro Cams, either stage 1 or stage 2 "truck" cams, at roughly $170 more than the LS9 cam ($290 total), you will not be disappointed. they will run just fine with the blue beehive springs (also before you pay $65 for them on ebay DM me, i also have a stock LQ4 cam that is in good condition that i was going to make a lamp out of but if you really want it I'll get it to you for shipping)

I just put the STG III cam in my car, and I was very impressed with the quality of the cam.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058519 - 08/06/18 04:05 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
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Breathial Offline
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Breathial  Offline
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Chester Springs, PA
So the cam bearing spinning toasted that bore. It's also what caused the #1 &#2 main bearings to starve. Bottom line: block & crank are toast, unless I'm willing to spend a LOT of money to do repairs (to the block, the crank is history).

BUT... it looks like I got lucky, found a guy who does a lot of LS stuff, has a 6.0 block and crank he'll sell me for $250.

As an old friend once described, this is "dirty luck." Problem pops up, but able to wrangle through it without too much pain and annoyance. I pick it up in a couple of days, and we're back in business. Probably cheaper than trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (fixing the old block). Again, NOT the way I wanted this to start, but.... whatever. dunno

Last edited by Breathial; 08/06/18 07:44 PM.
#1058521 - 08/06/18 08:01 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Travis Jones]  
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 29
Breathial Offline
Junior Member
Breathial  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 29
Chester Springs, PA
Quote
I would strongly recommend something other than a GM factory cam, especially the LS9 cam for an NA applicaiton. 122.5 is absurd for an NA motor.


Understood. And your points are valid. But the (admittedly little) research I've done on cam profiles for LS engines versus BBC or earlier SBC variants, tells me that LS engines respond in a substantially different way to cam profiles. The few LQ4/LQ9 engines I've been able to find using the LS9 cam, seem to show about a 50HP bump, with an appropriate tune. Which means I could see maybe 370 RWHP when all is said and done...? (Spit-balling here, I know...)

To be sure, there are other aspects that will rob some of that power- for example, I can find C5 Corvette exhaust manifolds for $100 shipped, with integral O2 sensor bungs. And seriously looking at the LS1 (Camaro/Firebird) intake, since I currently have a DBW intake, and would need to find a drive-by-cable throttle-body and get that all set up. I'm missing a lot of sensors, and still have to decide the path to take on accessories and brackets (all I have now is the truck water pump and damper). The overall cost difference on the intake will be ~$200, but packaging will be much better [both for accessories and brackets]. For both steps, I'll lose some HP, but I'll still have more than enough.

As to the cam, I've already ordered it, and it'll go on my shelf in a few days... while I wait for a block to put it in... banghead

I'll stick with the plan for now. But, thank you for the input. It's greatly appreciated. wink

#1058522 - 08/06/18 09:24 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,701
Travis Jones Offline
10+ Year
Travis Jones  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,701
Ferndale, MI
Originally Posted by Breathial
Quote
I would strongly recommend something other than a GM factory cam, especially the LS9 cam for an NA applicaiton. 122.5 is absurd for an NA motor.


Understood. And your points are valid. But the (admittedly little) research I've done on cam profiles for LS engines versus BBC or earlier SBC variants, tells me that LS engines respond in a substantially different way to cam profiles. The few LQ4/LQ9 engines I've been able to find using the LS9 cam, seem to show about a 50HP bump, with an appropriate tune. Which means I could see maybe 370 RWHP when all is said and done...? (Spit-balling here, I know...)

To be sure, there are other aspects that will rob some of that power- for example, I can find C5 Corvette exhaust manifolds for $100 shipped, with integral O2 sensor bungs. And seriously looking at the LS1 (Camaro/Firebird) intake, since I currently have a DBW intake, and would need to find a drive-by-cable throttle-body and get that all set up. I'm missing a lot of sensors, and still have to decide the path to take on accessories and brackets (all I have now is the truck water pump and damper). The overall cost difference on the intake will be ~$200, but packaging will be much better [both for accessories and brackets]. For both steps, I'll lose some HP, but I'll still have more than enough.

As to the cam, I've already ordered it, and it'll go on my shelf in a few days... while I wait for a block to put it in... banghead

I'll stick with the plan for now. But, thank you for the input. It's greatly appreciated. wink


First, there is no difference between a DBW and DBC truck intake. Just run what you have. the truck intakes, are ugly, but make significantly more low end torque AND power up top than the car intakes. this is a proven fact. just get a DBC Throttle body from a van or truck. they should be plentiful in your local wrecking yards. the same goes for accessories. the nice thing about the truck PS pump is that you can use factory lines to attach it. and if you get a DR44G alternator, it can work with only a single wire. If you were willing to spend that much on an intake, you're better off returning the cam you bought and buying an aftermarket one. As for the 370 RWHP... You're probably looking at 340-350 if you run the LS1 intake and LS9 cam, keep in mind you will lose low end torque with the LS9 cam and then be choked out up top by the restrictive LS1 intake even though the cam wants to rev up...


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058523 - 08/06/18 10:16 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Travis Jones]  
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 29
Breathial Offline
Junior Member
Breathial  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 29
Chester Springs, PA
WRT throttle bodies, I know there's no difference as to flow. But I'm going MS2, and want the simple cable setup. As to availability at the wrecking yard, I have 3 liitle ones; trips to the wrecking yard are simply out of the question for me. I liked your idea to go with an aftermarket throttle body, though; $75 gets a new unit + sensors, where a used one here goes for $50 (and sensor condition is unknown).

As to the intake, an LS1 goes for $125. My used truck intake goes for an easy $50. So for $50 (+ ~$130 for new throttle body and fuel rails) I've got a compact intake where I don't have to worry about hood clearance.

As to horsepower, I'm not concerned about maximum power numbers. I want more power, sure... more *teeth.* But it'll never see a track... and *maybe a chassis dyno to validate tune... but even that's debatable. After youve built a few cars North of 600 HP, it just ain't a big deal any more... LOL

#1058526 - 08/07/18 01:57 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 12,216
PB86SS/87LS Offline
Administrator
15+ Year
PB86SS/87LS  Offline
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15+ Year

Member

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 12,216
New Berlin, WI
Welcome aboard and nice SS to start with, plus nice plans for it.

It’s a moot point but in the stock setup’s defense, it should get much better than 13mpg and also still torque around town decently enough to be competitive with granny in her Accord. One of my pet peeves on recent publications/builds of our cars is being lazy and ripping on the stock performance (it was the 80’s, all cars were slow by today’s standards). Not saying you are, just putting it in perspective. I’m all for yanking out the 305 for any nice build if not some super low mile original beer

Look forward to the progress!

Last edited by PB86SS/87LS; 08/07/18 01:58 AM.

-86'SS 383 CCC QJet- BRF 2004r-8.5" 3.42 -313/344@RW - 13.35 @103
-87'LS 350 MAF/SD TPI- CRF 2004r-7.5" 3.42 -248/340@RW - 14.55 @ 96
-81'Grand LeMans Safari Wagon 3.8 2bbl/200C/2.73
-07'TBSS Stockish daily driver
[Linked Image]
#1058528 - 08/07/18 11:28 AM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Breathial]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,701
Travis Jones Offline
10+ Year
Travis Jones  Offline
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Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,701
Ferndale, MI
Originally Posted by Breathial
WRT throttle bodies, I know there's no difference as to flow. But I'm going MS2, and want the simple cable setup. As to availability at the wrecking yard, I have 3 liitle ones; trips to the wrecking yard are simply out of the question for me. I liked your idea to go with an aftermarket throttle body, though; $75 gets a new unit + sensors, where a used one here goes for $50 (and sensor condition is unknown).

As to the intake, an LS1 goes for $125. My used truck intake goes for an easy $50. So for $50 (+ ~$130 for new throttle body and fuel rails) I've got a compact intake where I don't have to worry about hood clearance.

As to horsepower, I'm not concerned about maximum power numbers. I want more power, sure... more *teeth.* But it'll never see a track... and *maybe a chassis dyno to validate tune... but even that's debatable. After youve built a few cars North of 600 HP, it just ain't a big deal any more... LOL


The truck intake has no fitment problems with the hood. the cable situation is even easier as you can just use an 02 Silverado throttle cable, there is also substantially more are to mount your TV cable. A car intake will not work with the truck accessories. the easiest and cheapest way to do all of this is for you to use everything from a truck/van.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build blog on Summit Racing's OnAll Cylinders https://www.onallcylinders.com/author/travis-jones/
#1058530 - 08/07/18 01:31 PM Re: Breathials' '87 MCSS Build- Cheap Street Driver [Re: Travis Jones]  
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 29
Breathial Offline
Junior Member
Breathial  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 29
Chester Springs, PA
Originally Posted by thepezking639
The truck intake has no fitment problems with the hood. the cable situation is even easier as you can just use an 02 Silverado throttle cable, there is also substantially more are to mount your TV cable. A car intake will not work with the truck accessories. the easiest and cheapest way to do all of this is for you to use everything from a truck/van.


Well, ok.... I'll take a look at the options... Though I would prefer the install to look "clean," like the LS1 intake provides, I'm also balancing against cost. And the cost to purchase another block and crank have already put a monkey-wrench into the "budget" aspect of this build. So... we'll see how it shakes out.

It's particularly frustrating that I'm not able to roam the local junkyards for parts; having little ones (2, 9 and 11) makes time as much of a commodity as money. And in past builds, I've always been able to trade-off my own labor for cash outlay. Not so easy to do, now... For example, I usually get "free" time in the garage after everyone else has already gone to bed, after 10 PM. Sometimes a few hours during the day on a Saturday or Sunday, but that' pretty rare. And I've relocated, the place I'm renting (until my house with a 4-car garage(!) finally sells) only has a "2" car garage... which actually is more like 1 1/2 cars... bs So, yeah...........

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