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#1056793 - 04/05/18 05:37 PM Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte  
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BadSS Offline
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Pearl, MS, 39208
A buddy called a couple weeks ago and ask if I would come over and tear down and check out a “practically new 406 with less than 20 passes” for his Monte. Should have been a sweet deal, SRP 2618 alloy pistons, splayed block, 4340 crank and rods – all supposedly “new”. Long story short, the pistons were worn out junk and the block was cracked. The crank and rods mic’ed out OK, but were later verified straight and true by a machinist. So,, he ended up a little ahead of breaking even if he would have just bought a new crank and rods.

While there I agreed to help him piece together a combination which included AFR220 heads, a Dart SHP 4.125” block, and new 4.125” ICON 2618 pistons (so he could get a few extra builds on the block). I’m more of a pump gas kinda fellow, but he said he wanted higher compression and didn’t care about the race gas so it’ll be about 12.7:1 compression. He did say he wanted to be able to drive it on the street and would like for the power brakes to work, so he’s going to run my old ragged edge daily driven solid roller cam I had squirreled away. Should make in the ballpark of 670HP with a double stack plate system putting him well over the 1,000HP mark.

He ordered everything, got the block honed to the pistons, and I clearanced the lifter bosses last week on the Dart block for standard roller lifters he already bought for the stock block - that’ll also allow him to pull the lifters without pulling the heads if ever needed. Also got the pistons on the rods and file fitted the HellFire rings. The bearings came in yesterday so I should be able to finish off the engine this weekend. I’m really looking forward to getting this running for him as I’ve “retired” from the racing scene but wouldn’t mind lingering far in the background just to see how he does. I’m afraid he’s going to have his hands full with these turbo LS engines running around though.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#1056800 - 04/08/18 02:16 PM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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kwkenuf85 Offline
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Nice to see someone building a "traditional" sbc! I have stopped telling anyone anything about any plans or ideas I have, as the first spew of their mouth usually has LS in it...

Wish you were closer, I would ask if I could come over and "help" with it.


85 Monte Carlo SS
My first car...
Time for the attention it deserves...
#1056810 - 04/09/18 01:45 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: kwkenuf85]  
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BadSS Offline
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Pearl, MS, 39208
Originally Posted by kwkenuf85
Nice to see someone building a "traditional" sbc! I have stopped telling anyone anything about any plans or ideas I have, as the first spew of their mouth usually has LS in it...

Wish you were closer, I would ask if I could come over and "help" with it.


You would be more than welcomed to drop by if you were able to do so. When I built my 406 a little over 4 years ago, I went traditional as well, springing for a Little M. The machinist said he was glad to see someone still building one back then - lol. I must admit though if I had not already had a set of SBC heads flowing 325cfm at cam lift and been wanting to run a FIRST Injections TPI intake since the early 90s, I probably would have gone LS or big block myself.

As for my buddy, he's a lot younger than me, in his early 30s, but is old school at heart. I actually tried to talk him into doing an LS engine, but he insisted on going with the old school SBC. He said he wanted to show the younger guys that the old SBC could hang with their LS cars. I think he'll be fine running up against most of the nitrous assisted LS cars around here, it's just there are a number of LS guys around here with dual turbos that I'm not so sure he'll be able to outrun. I think he's going to have to concentrate heavily on weight reduction and getting the thing to leave really hard to have any chance against those guys.

I had hoped to finish the engine off but the tolerances were too tight and had to order some .001" thinner bearings. Plus the machinist put the rods/pistons on backward and I wanted to swap those over at my place instead - the bad thing about it I had put the rings on before I noticed it. I've used that guy for over 30 years now and this is the second friend I've sent to him where he's made some mistakes with the machine work or told them "it'll be OK" when it wasn't OK with me at all.

#1056811 - 04/09/18 02:06 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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86ttop Offline
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Edelbrock is casting a 400 block, check it out, Made in the USA!!


Leo Paugh
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POW*MIA
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#1056826 - 04/09/18 04:44 PM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: 86ttop]  
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BadSS Offline
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Pearl, MS, 39208
Originally Posted by 86ttop
Edelbrock is casting a 400 block, check it out, Made in the USA!!

So are the Dart blocks. 😀


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#1056831 - 04/09/18 06:38 PM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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88ss408 Offline
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miramichi, NB
When did edelbrock start making 400 sbc blocks ?


1988 monte carlo ss 408 sbc 11:1 compression a.f.r.195cc heads accel ignition system comp cams .507/.510 air gap intake 800cfm edelbrock carb th350 trans 3000 stall torque headman headers 3" dual super 40's 3.73:1 limited slip
-----------------------------------------------------
1984 monte carlo cs 400,headers,th250c,air gap intake
#1056876 - 04/13/18 01:14 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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86ttop Offline
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Brooksville, Fl


Leo Paugh
It's not an attitude, it's just the way I am.
POW*MIA
You are not forgotten
If things improve with age, I must be approaching magnificent. thumbs
#1056885 - 04/13/18 12:47 PM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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88ss408 Offline
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miramichi, NB
Very nice. I also checked out summit for availability. That was not so nice lol. They are 2600$ a block !


1988 monte carlo ss 408 sbc 11:1 compression a.f.r.195cc heads accel ignition system comp cams .507/.510 air gap intake 800cfm edelbrock carb th350 trans 3000 stall torque headman headers 3" dual super 40's 3.73:1 limited slip
-----------------------------------------------------
1984 monte carlo cs 400,headers,th250c,air gap intake
#1056898 - 04/14/18 02:02 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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86ttop Offline
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Brooksville, Fl
frown


Leo Paugh
It's not an attitude, it's just the way I am.
POW*MIA
You are not forgotten
If things improve with age, I must be approaching magnificent. thumbs
#1056899 - 04/14/18 02:48 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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That Edel SBC bare block is actually 400 bucks cheaper than the Dart Little M Sportsman. I would bet Edel is trying to cut into Darts sales with a similar product.
The first thing noticed was the block doesn't have steam holes, and the Dart doesn't either. But the Dart as the outer cylinder walls scalloped to add cooling around the cyl. Also the Edel has three Welsh plugs on each side, Dart only two.

On the Dart block the rear main cap is 1/8" taller which requires a long oil pump shaft, wonder if the Edel is the same.
The Edel block appears to have a bypass hole for the water pump, the Dart doesn't.
The Edel appears to not have blind head bolt hole, the Dart does.

I would still give the nod to the Dart block.

One thing you need to consider when building any of these mega cubic inch engines with a 9.025" deck height is connecting rod to cam clearance. It can easily be a problem with a big cam. Today there are available connecting rods to gain clearance there but they are also on the pricey side and drive the price of a good large cubic inch shortblock build skyward quickly.
Bob

#1056902 - 04/14/18 04:05 PM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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Small town USA
I usually do one engine every few years, this year I'll do three but only one small block.

This time I used the LT1 reverse cooled four bolt engine block and made a 396 cid @11.5:1 with a small 575 lift 292 duration comp hydraulic roller cam and R series lifters. We used the AFR competition 195 LT4 heads with 64cc chambers that flow 305 cfm at .600. The bottom end is scat forged with the H beam rods and a long 3.875 stroke crank. I'm thinking a honest 575 HP which should get the 1996 SS Camaro into the high 10's - low 11's with the 6 speed I rebuilt.

The Optispark will be replaced with a 24x dual signal crank trigger sensor with coil on plug. The PCM replaced with a LS1 unit for better tuning too.

This build shows we have many high quality OEM blocks available for very cheap. This block with a standard bore was $150 guaranteed to mag free of cracks.

This is a relatively cheap build considering the bang for the buck and will run down many unsuspecting LSx owners.

[Linked Image]Image_2303_035512(1) by Ron, on Flickr

[Linked Image]Image_2203_122233 by Ron, on Flickr

[Linked Image]Image_2203_110018 by Ron, on Flickr

[Linked Image]Image_2203_110044 by Ron, on Flickr

[Linked Image]Image_2203_122210 by
Ron, on Flickr

[Linked Image]Image_2203_031443 by Ron, on Flickr


[Linked Image]Image_2203_031531 by Ron, on Flickr

[Linked Image]Image_2203_020952 by Ron, on Flickr

[Linked Image]Image_2303_030957 by Ron, on Flickr









Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 04/14/18 07:31 PM.

Be a car builder, not a googler!
#1056905 - 04/14/18 11:56 PM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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Good call on the ls1 computer, will make it easier to swap An ls in it in the future lol



'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1056907 - 04/15/18 12:09 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: Onebadbowtie86]  
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Originally Posted by Onebadbowtie86
Good call on the ls1 computer, will make it easier to swap An ls in it in the future lol



Bahhahaha you're a funny guy.....


Be a car builder, not a googler!
#1056915 - 04/15/18 03:10 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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BadSS Offline
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Well, the weather was pretty bad here today and I wasn't able to get by by buddy's shop, but I did get the rods turned around and the rings back on the pistons here at my place. So, it should go pretty smoothly tomorrow morning once I get over there. I'm hoping to get it completely assembled tomorrow from intake to oil pan.

Slow, that's a nice build and I believe your estimate on the power is conservative - I'd venture to say it will make closer to 600HP. than 575HP. Regardless, it'll definitely run down more than a few LS cars and be a blast to drive.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#1056916 - 04/15/18 05:38 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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El Paso, Tx
That LT engine sure looks beautiful!


-'87 Monte SS LS 2/4L65e Quick Perf. 9" w/disk brakes
-'89 Iroc Z28 Stock 5.7 Edelb. TES headers, Borla Exhaust90K
-'77 Trans Am 468(Stroked) Doug's Headers Flowmaster catback
B & M shift Kit 400 Turbo trans. Edel brock Performer
RPM Intake Sean Murphy built Rochester Carb. Restored
in '08. 3K
#1056930 - 04/16/18 01:07 PM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: 1 Slow SS]  
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Originally Posted by 1 Slow SS


This is a relatively cheap build considering the bang for the buck and will run down many unsuspecting LSx owners.


Nice to see someone thinking outside the box. Good choice with the LS reluctor wheel and ECU. You know what they say about Optispark "60% of the time it works every time"

That being said $2200 for a set of LT4 heads vs a set of GM CNC LS3 heads for $1500 that flow 350cfm at .600, on an LQ9 short block with a cam... It would be a fun race to watch for sure!

I think a big inch LT motor like that would be awesome in a Roadmaster wagon for the ultimate sleeper.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, Built 200-4R, B&M Megashifter, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build thread: http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/126188-SSLOW6-0-Build
#1056937 - 04/17/18 01:05 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: thepezking639]  
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Originally Posted by thepezking639
Originally Posted by 1 Slow SS


This is a relatively cheap build considering the bang for the buck and will run down many unsuspecting LSx owners.


Nice to see someone thinking outside the box. Good choice with the LS reluctor wheel and ECU. You know what they say about Optispark "60% of the time it works every time"

That being said $2200 for a set of LT4 heads vs a set of GM CNC LS3 heads for $1500 that flow 350cfm at .600, on an LQ9 short block with a cam... It would be a fun race to watch for sure!

I think a big inch LT motor like that would be awesome in a Roadmaster wagon for the ultimate sleeper.


It's all good, I know LS engines as I have had a half dozen that ran very well when built. I have a used LS7 for my Monte Carlo that will get reworked in the fall. I take it you didn't see my LME 630 HP Camaro I posted a while back?


Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 04/17/18 01:33 AM.

Be a car builder, not a googler!
#1057132 - 05/02/18 05:12 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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BadSS Offline
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Figured I’d do a little update. Dropped in #1 and #2 pistons and the rod bolts didn’t clear the block. The Dart SHP info says “Clearance for 3.75” stroke and steel rods”. That doesn’t mean all steel rods LOL. We’re talking about .125” needing to be removed to clear these Eagle rods. Called Dart to see if they could tell me what if any H-beam rods would clear and they were no help, but did say they knew people were fitting 4” cranks in the blocks without hitting water, so I should be OK if I decided on grinding on the block.

Some engine builders on Speedtalk forum said the Callies Compstar rods will clear with a 2.10” journal and 3.75” stroke. Others said they had to take out about the same .125” I estimated using Scat H-beams. What sucks is I have used Eagle H-beams in a stock 400 block on a 3.75” crank before and didn’t have to grind on it.

Makes no sense to me although I found an old post from 2005 that said Eagle had made some changes to the profile on the rods and earlier Eagle rods might present clearance issues. I know I built a 406 using Eagle rods around 1997 and they cleared, so surely these rods aren’t any older than that,,, but who knows. This is exactly why I don’t buy used parts.

Anyway,,, anyone considering going with one of these SHP blocks and wanting to run H-beam rods needs to be sure to buy “stoker rods” – and not all of those will clear from the information I’ve gathered. I guess i could man up and get to grinding, but I’m pretty sure he has already found a buyer for these Eagle rods and won’t have to put much more cash on a set of the Callies Compstars. I say good riddance to those things as there’s no way to know how old they are and how much abuse they’ve seen.

I’ll post back once the new rods get here and I know what if any clearance needs to be done for them.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#1057417 - 05/25/18 03:38 AM Re: Building a 400 for a Buddy’s Monte [Re: BadSS]  
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BadSS Offline
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Thankfully he was able to sell the Eagle rods and bought a set of the Callies Compstar rods and they cleared with room to spare. Got the bottom end finished up and the cam degreed in, measured and ordered the pushrods. Should be able to finish it up this weekend if the oil pan and pushrods get here Friday or Saturday.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.

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