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#1055870 - 02/13/18 12:57 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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Warriorridge Offline
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Petersburg PA
Originally Posted by Richie Cat
Educate me. I understand as I'm reading this, that the mount points upper and lower, not symmetrical. But if you get your C/L of the spindles 90* to the C/L of the chassis and across from another. aren't they both in the same location to each other by using shims? Or are you doing this to gain more angle adjustment ?

Right, the frame mounts on the frame are not symmetrical. I don't think that it's by design, just poor manufacturing tolerances. On an average daily driver or cruiser it's not that big of a deal, you just use shims to do your alignment and that mostly compensates for it. What I'm trying to though is build a car that will handle very well, I'll probably autocross is and maybe some road course as well. In a case like this, the differences from to side, especially on the lower arm mounting points where you can't adjust with shims, can affect the handling. Also, depending on what control arms you're running, you may not be able to get enough castor for a good high performance alignment, so by moving the mounts in the right direction, you can gain a bit of caster potential. What I did in the above posts was bolt up my front suspension and check to see what kind of castor I can get before I started moving mounts, so I could see if I need to make any changes to get more castor. Turns out that with the parts I am using I'll be able to get plenty, so I don't need to try to add any, but I'm still going to adjust the mounts to make them symmetrical.

Last edited by Warriorridge; 02/13/18 01:05 AM.
#1055873 - 02/13/18 02:21 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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Warriorridge Offline
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Got the upper mounts adjusted today. I started by getting things set up to measure the location of the mounting points. I needed measure the distance of each hole on the upper control arm mount from the frame centerline, its height, and its position fore and aft. To measure the height I measured from a piece of square tube laying across the frame table. For the distance from the frame centerline I set up a laser to shine right down the frame center line. It can be a bit of a pain to get it set up perfectly, but once it is set up taking measurements is easy, just look where the laser is shining on my ruler. For the distance fore and aft, I needed a line to measure from. It didn't really matter where I put this line, as long as it was perpendicular to the frame centerline. I chose to holes near the front of the frame, I set a piece of angle iron across them, checked to see if it was indeed perpendicular, then tacked it in place
[Linked Image]IMG_20180212_111049 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
After getting the measurements, I cut off the mounting points
[Linked Image]IMG_20180212_144044 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
All cleaned up
[Linked Image]IMG_20180212_155918 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
The passenger side mount was further back than the drivers side mount, and the drivers side mount was angled in toward the back a little more than the passenger side mount. I decided to put the drivers side mount as far back as the passenger side was, and split the differance in the side to side measurements between the two. Here they are tacked back into place
[Linked Image]IMG_20180212_165746 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180212_165756 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
I didn't weld them in yet because I might end up not using these actual mounts, I'd like to install some keyed ones something like what MC96 mentioned a few posts back, and I also need to build a coilover mounting bracket in that area, so the mounts are just tacked in until I get all that finalized.
Anyhow, here are the before and after measurements of the upper mounting brackets:
[Linked Image]IMG_20180212_192442 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180212_192413 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr

#1055875 - 02/13/18 05:15 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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The lack of suspension symmetry from left to right sides of the frame would be fairly common on the old frames. On Justin's frame his UCA mounts are off, for me it's the right LCA rear pocket. Justin and I both are looking to fix what misalignment we can and be able to get lots of caster, 9+ instead of the usual 4 -5 max. Because he is using coilovers both the UCA and LCA needed have the ball joint moved to increase static castor to 10+, so his concern is correcting control arm pivot points. For me the project is reusing the stock LCA but moving the ball joint forward via moving the pivot locations and at the same time blueprint the LCA locations. There's a little more than that to my my project, more on that later.

The rear pockets and UCA mounts are welded to the frame later in it's production. So they can easily deviate from "spec" when you have 30 seconds to weld them in. When you do a generic alignment on the front end there is usually enough range in the UCA shimming to adjust out the misalignment of any of the 8 pivot points of the control arms. You can notice this when you look at 30 Montes parked together, Carlisle, where ever, odd shim stacks from side to side. Hmmm, why is that, symmetry.


For pretty much all the cars we drive worrying about the pickup points is something not to lose sleep over. Lance beats on his car, I applaud him for it, Justin is building a car to beat on, me I'm just beating an old horse trying to make it better so i know it's the driver that's killing all those cones, not the car.
Bob

#1055880 - 02/13/18 12:24 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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MC96 Offline
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St. Johns MI
For coil over mounts I have some bay bars with a jack bolt running through them. I dont have to worry about packaging other than making sure my coil over can pass through the upper arm.

Like this port city chassis (with a set up rod in place of the coil over)
[Linked Image]

I built all my suspension myself but it is very similar to this, just packaged to fit a stock clip.


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1055881 - 02/13/18 12:36 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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MC96 Offline
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I should add that I cut out the outer half of the stock spring bucket and plated the hole shut.


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1055882 - 02/13/18 02:50 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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SSLance Offline
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Nice work Justin... Just a tip...you might want to trim those ears off inside the coil pocket while the upper mounts are easy to get off. They'll have to be trimmed back or eliminated to make room for the coilovers when the time comes.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1055897 - 02/14/18 04:38 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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After plotting all the points, 6, for the LCAs then transferring them to a scale drawing yesterday I can now see that how I planned to move the lower ball joint forward has changed. Because the two front pockets center axis is but 1 1/4" ahead of the two ball joints axis moving the front pocket bolt hole inboard will basically just change camber, with little effect on adding caster. Moving only the rear pocket holes outboard will have a much greater effect on gaining caster, move the ball joint forward. This explains why the right ball joint is forward of the left, the right rear pocket holes are already 1/4" outboard of the left side.

So now the plan is to not touch the hole in the front of both front pockets. Their height and distance from centerline are almost perfect. I will use them as the starting point to mod the rear pockets. There is plenty of area to relocated the holes in the rear pockets. The left side points of the LCA are actually very good, it just that right rear pocket that is way off. Both front pockets have equal down front angle, .65 degrees, the back holes of the front pockets will be adjusted to add some more down angle and also used to move the pivot axis outboard. Once that is done the 12 mm rod can be used to locate the rear bucket holes. The thinking is the right rear bucket holes are already 1/4" outboard, will need to go another 1/4" to hopefully pickup another 2 degrees caster. Then the left side will be moved to image the right side. Trial and error trimming of the pocket holes then install parts and plot the new ball joint location. The goal is to gain 3 to 4 degrees added caster through relocation, add a little more down angle and have both sides symmetric.

This is one of the slowest moving projects I've done on the car. Measure and think about it 10 times, cut once.
Bob

#1055935 - 02/16/18 03:50 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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Warriorridge Offline
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Well I got the lower arm mounts done since the last time I posted. Before I started I filled in the notch I cut in the frame for ac compressor clearance. I wanted to get this finished up before I blueprinted the lower mounts, just in case the welding would shift things a little. (I doubt it did, but I needed to do it sometime anyhow, so may as well be safe.
Here's before
[Linked Image]IMG_20180213_114814 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
And after
[Linked Image]IMG_20180213_122147 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
With that being done, I measured the lower mounting points. Here are the measurements before
[Linked Image]IMG_20180214_194515 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
Then use a rod and washers to line up the holes. I figured out which way I needed to move each hole, then reamed out the holes in the direction they needed to go. Once the holes were ground out enough to put the rod trough all of them and get it where I wanted it. Then put the washers on the rod, line it up exactly where you want it, and tack the washers in place. Then pull the rod out and weld in the washers all the way.
[Linked Image]IMG_20180214_155526 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180214_155512 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180214_162239 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180214_162157 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
Then repeat on the other side. These are the final measurements
[Linked Image]IMG_20180216_094859 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
Once the mounts were all finished I put the suspension back on to see where my castor settings where. With the upper arms set near the middle of there adjustment range (both adjustors about 1/2 inch out) I had around 13* of castor. In fact I pretty much had to max out the adjustment on the upper arms to be able to get the castor down to 9.5*. Any less and I would have to use shims. When I finish my upper control arm mounts I think that I am going to move them forward about 3/8", that will give me about 9.5* of castor with the arms set in the middle of there adjustment range, If I do that I should be able to get any alighment in the range I want to be in without having to use any shims.

#1055949 - 02/17/18 04:29 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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SSLance Offline
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I gotta say, I'm pretty stoked that a couple more of you guys are going down this road. Nice work!! It'll be worth the effort, I promise.

I also have to say you lay down some pretty sweet welds with that little Hobart.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1055958 - 02/18/18 01:55 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: SSLance]  
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I'm glad I had my Trans am in front of my Monte frame upgrade, this is exactly what I needed to see. I will do mine the same way other than adding the front coil over brackets. Great thread on taking the frame to the next level.


Be a car builder, not a googler!
#1055971 - 02/19/18 03:43 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Thanks to Justin for his kick in the butt. I see him do his LCA pivot points in like a couple days, even has pretty weld to glue it together already. That gave me the drive to at least have mine ready to MIG now, finally. I've been playing with project for more than a month, time to get it back on the road.

Unfortunately besides just welding on the washers there are the old holes to fill first. To move the ball joint forward 9/16" on the right side and 5/8" on the left, change the arm angle from .65 degree down to the front to 1.20 down, make everything symmetric, and add a little positive camber, these required major relocation of the rear bucket holes. This put the new holes almost a full hole away on the left and more than a 1/2 on the right, if that makes sense. Not a big deal, just don't have the luxury of sitting or standing to weld, gotta do it the old fashion way, laying under the car. That's one of the things you deal with when you have an engine in the way. My Miller 140 should be up to the task.

The alignment of the rear buckets after the huge hole change there cause the rear buckets to need reshaping to allow the Delrin washers in the bushings to be parallel to the insides of the bucket. This took some time and needs tweaked again after the washers are welded on. For some reason the right rear bucket needed more attention than the left. With the LCA installed and the bolts tightened to about 50 lbs the left swings freely, the right has way to much "sticktion". But I'll fix that. Another goal was to be able to torque the arm bolts to 65 and them rotate freely, like they were when i removed them after 20 years of use. Can't say enough about how good the Global Delrin LCA and UCA bushings are. But i assume pretty much all the arms today with Delrin wear forever. I called Global and bought just the 4 sleeve/spacer and one washer, some pitting of the plating of the old ones. Anyone else would have just greased them and sent it out for another 10 years.

Because I wasn't happy with any LCA choices for coil spring arms from the aftermarket, about 10 choices, of which none would fit all my criteria, that is the reason to move the ball joints forward using the stock LCA.
This mod should increase tire to well clearance at the rear of the tire maybe 3/8" with turn out more than 25 degrees. At the front of the tire the clearance will be reduced at 25 degrees turn in but that's an easy fix if a problem.
The gain in caster moving the joint forward should net about 4 to 5 degrees, this will reduce the rear shim stack to manageable for 9 1/2 degrees static. Because the rear shim stack will get thinner the front will have a better range of shim thickness to allow any camber setting. Before the mods could only get 8 degrees static caster, 1 1/2 camber with no shims in front.
The positive camber is caused by the need of the front bucket hole to go inward about .150", might be 1 degree. This is a necessary result of moving the rear holes so far outboard. In the end dialing that out and getting back to a static of 1 degree neg is not a problem, and it shouldn't effect the camber gain.
That .150" inboard also moves the wheel/tire inboard a like amount reducing turning radius a little. This because the fat tires may now rub either the sway bar of the frame in the rear. The spindle stops can be adjusted so that doesn't happen. Turning angles were 29 and 30 before the mods, I don't think I will lose much if any there.
And as another plus to all this is the wheel/tire should end up being more centered in the fender opening.

Once done with the mods, the springs installed and sitting on the ground again it's back to Ackermann and bump. Been down both those roads before so it won't be a big learning curve, just more time on your back.

Justin don't take this as a thread hijack. I'm hoping it's more of a sharing of info. It's hard to find constructive information on the web these days, everyone is to busy Tweeting" about what they had for breakfast. Most all the forums are down to a crawl. So anytime I see a good post on something I'm interested in I need to get involved. Lance has been a huge inspiration to someone who always wanted to beat up a car on a road course. Life just got in the way. Now that i have been retreaded, re purposed, call it what you want, doing better at the autox is a bucket list top 10.

Oh, by the way there are several interested in what you did for a three link. Not me, don't have the time or interest in laying on the floor again. But would like to see some pics.
Bob

#1055981 - 02/19/18 03:22 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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SSLance Offline
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Nice work Bob!! I am certain you will be more than pleased with the way the car handles once back on the road.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1055984 - 02/19/18 04:01 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: SSLance]  
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Warriorridge Offline
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Originally Posted by SSLance
I gotta say, I'm pretty stoked that a couple more of you guys are going down this road. Nice work!! It'll be worth the effort, I promise.

I also have to say you lay down some pretty sweet welds with that little Hobart.




It's been fun so far, I really enjoy the building part of it, I'm a little more worried about the driving part when the car is finally finished. A fast car isn't going to be fast if the driver skills are lacking.
The Hobart works good, It's a good welder for the money
Originally Posted by 1 Slow SS
I'm glad I had my Trans am in front of my Monte frame upgrade, this is exactly what I needed to see. I will do mine the same way other than adding the front coil over brackets. Great thread on taking the frame to the next level.

Thanks, I've seen a few pictures of one of your builds on here, you do nice work
Originally Posted by mcc427ss
Thanks to Justin for his kick in the butt. I see him do his LCA pivot points in like a couple days, even has pretty weld to glue it together already. That gave me the drive to at least have mine ready to MIG now, finally. I've been playing with project for more than a month, time to get it back on the road.

Unfortunately besides just welding on the washers there are the old holes to fill first. To move the ball joint forward 9/16" on the right side and 5/8" on the left, change the arm angle from .65 degree down to the front to 1.20 down, make everything symmetric, and add a little positive camber, these required major relocation of the rear bucket holes. This put the new holes almost a full hole away on the left and more than a 1/2 on the right, if that makes sense. Not a big deal, just don't have the luxury of sitting or standing to weld, gotta do it the old fashion way, laying under the car. That's one of the things you deal with when you have an engine in the way. My Miller 140 should be up to the task.

The alignment of the rear buckets after the huge hole change there cause the rear buckets to need reshaping to allow the Delrin washers in the bushings to be parallel to the insides of the bucket. This took some time and needs tweaked again after the washers are welded on. For some reason the right rear bucket needed more attention than the left. With the LCA installed and the bolts tightened to about 50 lbs the left swings freely, the right has way to much "sticktion". But I'll fix that. Another goal was to be able to torque the arm bolts to 65 and them rotate freely, like they were when i removed them after 20 years of use. Can't say enough about how good the Global Delrin LCA and UCA bushings are. But i assume pretty much all the arms today with Delrin wear forever. I called Global and bought just the 4 sleeve/spacer and one washer, some pitting of the plating of the old ones. Anyone else would have just greased them and sent it out for another 10 years.

Because I wasn't happy with any LCA choices for coil spring arms from the aftermarket, about 10 choices, of which none would fit all my criteria, that is the reason to move the ball joints forward using the stock LCA.
This mod should increase tire to well clearance at the rear of the tire maybe 3/8" with turn out more than 25 degrees. At the front of the tire the clearance will be reduced at 25 degrees turn in but that's an easy fix if a problem.
The gain in caster moving the joint forward should net about 4 to 5 degrees, this will reduce the rear shim stack to manageable for 9 1/2 degrees static. Because the rear shim stack will get thinner the front will have a better range of shim thickness to allow any camber setting. Before the mods could only get 8 degrees static caster, 1 1/2 camber with no shims in front.
The positive camber is caused by the need of the front bucket hole to go inward about .150", might be 1 degree. This is a necessary result of moving the rear holes so far outboard. In the end dialing that out and getting back to a static of 1 degree neg is not a problem, and it shouldn't effect the camber gain.
That .150" inboard also moves the wheel/tire inboard a like amount reducing turning radius a little. This because the fat tires may now rub either the sway bar of the frame in the rear. The spindle stops can be adjusted so that doesn't happen. Turning angles were 29 and 30 before the mods, I don't think I will lose much if any there.
And as another plus to all this is the wheel/tire should end up being more centered in the fender opening.

Once done with the mods, the springs installed and sitting on the ground again it's back to Ackermann and bump. Been down both those roads before so it won't be a big learning curve, just more time on your back.

Justin don't take this as a thread hijack. I'm hoping it's more of a sharing of info. It's hard to find constructive information on the web these days, everyone is to busy Tweeting" about what they had for breakfast. Most all the forums are down to a crawl. So anytime I see a good post on something I'm interested in I need to get involved. Lance has been a huge inspiration to someone who always wanted to beat up a car on a road course. Life just got in the way. Now that i have been retreaded, re purposed, call it what you want, doing better at the autox is a bucket list top 10.

Oh, by the way there are several interested in what you did for a three link. Not me, don't have the time or interest in laying on the floor again. But would like to see some pics.
Bob

I can see how keeping the stock lcas would make this more difficult. How were you adjusting the rear mounts to line up with the bushings, just bending them a little? Anyhow, it'll be cool if you can do it with the stock arms, obviously the arms I have make it a lot easier, and I'm using coilovers, but its nice to know a lower cost option exists, I'll keep it in mind if I ever do another build in the future.
Here are a few pictures of the back. Obviously its not quite finished yet. I still need to make some mounting brackets of the coilovers and the axle side of the watts link bars. Theres also a few little things I want to clean up or redo, and of courses weld it all together, It's mostly just tacked right now. The plan is to be able to keep the back seat, I may need to make a few small floor mods, but nothing major. (and yes, not all of the photos were taken at the same place, the first few were at my old shop)
[Linked Image]IMG_20170208_135412 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20170208_135348 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180124_155754 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180129_175321 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180124_155820 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr
[Linked Image]IMG_20180129_180505 by Justin Yoder, on Flickr

#1055986 - 02/19/18 05:07 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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SSLance Offline
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SSLance  Offline
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Peoria, AZ
Now I'm drooling!!! laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1055990 - 02/19/18 11:46 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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I will be interesting to see how the rear suspension you're doing fits with the body installed. Keep us posted as that progresses.

Reshaping the rear pockets was a little challenging because the car is together, not much room to get anything in there. Spacers were installed in the bucket the correct bushing sleeve thickness, the bolt with heavy flats on each side then installed and cranked tight. This keep the bushing washer areas parallel, then C clamps used to twist the pocket. It doesn't take a whole lot of force to put a bend in that steel, what is it, 11 or 12 gauge. And you are only bending one side at a time.

Had the grand kids for the day again so nothing done. Tonight will get the welder out and fill the old holes then redress the new holes. I made alum plugs to insert in the new holes, they are 1/4x2x2 with a 1" alum 12 mm rod welded into the center. They get pushed against the backside of the hole with a piece of all thread and some washers and nuts to hold them firmly against the back side of the bucket sides. This should allow me to fill the old holes. That's tonight project.

Keeping the stock LCAs was a budget and a lets see if we can make this work thing. When I saw arms at 700 a pair and not really doing what I need it made using the old arms easier. I replaced all 4 ball joints, freshened up the 4 Global Del-A-Lum bushings, bought a bunch of hardware, some tools including a 12 mm drill bit, digital angle gauge, a good caster/camber gauge, a set of new Hunter turnplates and only into this project about 700 bucks. The caster/camber gauge and turnplates allowed me to see what I had before I started and what needed to be done to reach those goals. And allow tweaking the settings on my homemade alignment rack afterwards

As much as I hate to say it the car sports an old school B spindle swap from 20 years ago. This was done before the AFX spindle, before tall ball joints were available, before S10 and LS brake swaps. Today it's almost a sin to say you have B spindles on your G-body. But the bumpsteer issue was addressed and reduced significantly years ago. Wilwood dual piston calipers and Stop Tech rotors lightened the unsprung 6 lbs a side and give terrific braking. Inaccurately it's said the B spindle reduces the steering ratio, slows it down, NOT true, it increases the ratio. The B steering arms are shorter than a G. The B spindle increase track width .880", .440" a side, for me a good thing with zero offset wheels. The scrub radius sucks on a B spindle, but also sucks on an AFX, and a G spindle.
Initially when the AFX came out there were two versions, a short and tall and Global West UCA could be used on the tall version, and it was used on the B spindle swap. The G spindle is 7". the AFX 8" and the B is 8 1/8". For some reason now the Globals can't be used on the AFX. So to dump the B and go AFX would require both upper and lower arms (to get the ball joint moved forward), along with the AFX spindles, and the new brake package, and a minimum of 17' wheels, and tires. Adding that all up and it would be a large chunk of change. So I'll stay with the B spindle, fix the bump by making a new center link, again. The Ackermann isn't terrible, it's just not good for an autox, open road course it would be very good. I like doing things others say can't be done.
Bob

#1056072 - 02/23/18 10:51 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Tues evening got the old pivot holes plugged and the right side washer welded on when wouldn't you know it ran out of MIG gas. Picked up a fresh small bottle on Weds, 76 bucks, when is the price of that going to level off, it just keeps going up and up. Gotta love AIRGAS, the only local place to get it so you're stuck with the price. About a year ago needed a fresh bottle, had to get on a list because certified empty bottles were in short supply, and I complained because it was 67 bucks then.

Next is put the front end together with just springs and get it back on my rack to see how much caster i gained. The shimming done prior to taking things apart are in the arms now, maxed at 8 degrees. I'm expecting caster to be about 12 with those shims in after moving the lower ball joint forward 11/16". So will remove some shims and get down to 9 1/2 and hope that camber can go down to neg 1 degree using shims

Another thing to be checked, done, is see if I picked up some more Ackermann. Was only one degree before at 20 degrees. With moving the ball joint forward that is the same as moving the inner tie rods rearward, that should gain some more angle at turn in on the inboard wheel. Hopefully enough to satisfy me so i don't have to "adjust" (bend) the steering arms to get it.

Next is back to checking bump steer and figuring out how to dial in minimal bump. The centerlink made several years ago to minimize the bump on the B spindle will most likely be junk now, will need to start from scratch again. This because going from 5 caster to 9+ caster raises the steering arm upwards a fair amounts. So it's start over again and make another centerlink.

Before taking the car off the stands setup for ride height all the pickup points will be measured from ground level so the roll center can be calculated.

Thinking about cutting the springs to lower the car a small amount. The street tires I run are 26" tall, my Hoosier A6 are 25 1/2". The front end height went up 1/4" when the 26" tires were installed, looking to get back to a 26 1/2" fender lip height (ride height), it's now a little over 26 3/4" in the front.

With the LCA now forward the sway bar link angle changed. From appearance it looks like it will be OK. It's not a big deal to move the hole in the LCA a little rearward but there is not much area in the arms to move it very much. So for now will use the original holes in the arms for the links.

Getting closer to the end of this ordeal.
Bob

#1056090 - 02/25/18 11:44 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 129
Warriorridge Offline
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Warriorridge  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 129
Petersburg PA
Sounds good, I ordered some coilovers earlier this week, once I get them I can make my mounts.

#1056094 - 02/26/18 05:50 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,028
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,028
Pottstown, Pa
What spindles do you intend to use for the final build and which coilovers?

Didn't get much done on my end. Did take all the measurements so I can get an idea of where the roll center will be. Looks like it will end up a little above the ground level at static. Finding the IC for each side also helps get an idea where the tie rods need to point to reduce bump.

Took kinda a page from you and put a straight edge and gauge across the flat on the spindle at the lower ball joint with the spindle at ride height, 12 degrees.
Before installing springs and dropping it back on the ground installed the rotors and wheel/tire on the right side and set LCA to ride height. This way I could satisfy the need to see tire to well at the rear clearance increased before dropping the car on the ground again.
And while at ride height, wheel on, put the caster /camber gauge on and did a check for caster, 12+, gauge was at max.

None of this really mean much until the car is sitting back on all four, and I do an alignment. But as of now it appears my goals have been met. Increased caster available by 4+, increased clearance at the well, moved the spindle inboard only 1/16", increased the LCA down angle .5 degree, possibly added some turn in angle to the inside tire, moved the tire forward in the opening, and now the LCAs are symmetric side to side. Haven't seen a negative to this yet. But, still need to get the car out on the back roads of pothole Pa to see how it all comes together.

When the caster was increased from 4 1/2 to 8 before the tear down I only drove the car maybe 10 miles at that setting. I had also went from 1/16" toe in a side to 1/16" toe out at the same time. I did notice a little more turning effort, but turn in was noticeable better. My initial setup will be 9 1/2 caster, neg 1 camber with 0 toe. I'll drive it to see how it feels, then try 1/16" toe out. Then back to the rack and run through the camber, caster, ackermann, bump process. Then it's pull the springs and do the suspension travel geometry to see really what kind of monster i created. Lots of work to do yet but it looks like here in Pa there is still another month of ugly weather yet.
Bob

#1056106 - 02/27/18 01:25 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 652
MC96 Offline
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MC96  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 652
St. Johns MI
Doesnt look like you've notched the rear frame yet.. Mind telling me the distance between the outside of the rails, I notched but didnt pay any mind and now dont know how far I went.

Looks great btw, hate seeing all these builds pass mine in completion state but thats the fun part right?


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1056141 - 02/28/18 01:40 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: MC96]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 652
MC96 Offline
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MC96  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 652
St. Johns MI
Ha! disregard this ^ I realized you moved the whole rail in.


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1056156 - 02/28/18 07:05 PM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 72
oldtinsmith Offline
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oldtinsmith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 72
Auburn, Mi.
MC96... the distance between the outside of the rails above the axle center line on my Choo Choo El Camino is 46 1/4" (no notch,,,,yet).

Doug

#1056164 - 03/01/18 01:58 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: MC96]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 129
Warriorridge Offline
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Warriorridge  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 129
Petersburg PA
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
What spindles do you intend to use for the final build and which coilovers?

Didn't get much done on my end. Did take all the measurements so I can get an idea of where the roll center will be. Looks like it will end up a little above the ground level at static. Finding the IC for each side also helps get an idea where the tie rods need to point to reduce bump.

Took kinda a page from you and put a straight edge and gauge across the flat on the spindle at the lower ball joint with the spindle at ride height, 12 degrees.
Before installing springs and dropping it back on the ground installed the rotors and wheel/tire on the right side and set LCA to ride height. This way I could satisfy the need to see tire to well at the rear clearance increased before dropping the car on the ground again.
And while at ride height, wheel on, put the caster /camber gauge on and did a check for caster, 12+, gauge was at max.

None of this really mean much until the car is sitting back on all four, and I do an alignment. But as of now it appears my goals have been met. Increased caster available by 4+, increased clearance at the well, moved the spindle inboard only 1/16", increased the LCA down angle .5 degree, possibly added some turn in angle to the inside tire, moved the tire forward in the opening, and now the LCAs are symmetric side to side. Haven't seen a negative to this yet. But, still need to get the car out on the back roads of pothole Pa to see how it all comes together.

When the caster was increased from 4 1/2 to 8 before the tear down I only drove the car maybe 10 miles at that setting. I had also went from 1/16" toe in a side to 1/16" toe out at the same time. I did notice a little more turning effort, but turn in was noticeable better. My initial setup will be 9 1/2 caster, neg 1 camber with 0 toe. I'll drive it to see how it feels, then try 1/16" toe out. Then back to the rack and run through the camber, caster, ackermann, bump process. Then it's pull the springs and do the suspension travel geometry to see really what kind of monster i created. Lots of work to do yet but it looks like here in Pa there is still another month of ugly weather yet.
Bob

I'll probably run either the blazer spindles or the stock spindles. I'd like to see if I could get the blazer spindles machined to to fit corvette Z07 hubs, they are stronger than the stock stuff. I need to get my hands on a corvette hub to measure it to see if its even possible. If not I'll probably just use whichever spindles are easier to mount my brakes. I ordered my coilovers from UMI, they're afcos with UMI/ Strano valving.
Sounds like you are well on your way. Was the angle reading from the flat part of the spindle about the same as the reading that you got from the camber/ castor guage? I'd like to know how accurate my method was.
Originally Posted by MC96
Doesnt look like you've notched the rear frame yet.. Mind telling me the distance between the outside of the rails, I notched but didnt pay any mind and now dont know how far I went.

Looks great btw, hate seeing all these builds pass mine in completion state but thats the fun part right?


I can measure my frame rails and add the amount I narrowed the next time I go out to my shop. I don't remember the exact distance, but what oldtinsmith said sounds about right.
Do you have any pictures or info on your build posted anywhere?

#1056165 - 03/01/18 02:26 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 652
MC96 Offline
Member
MC96  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 652
St. Johns MI
Randomly here and there. Ill get a build thread together one of these days.

Notched rear, front spring buckets cut out, coil over jack bolts running through front hoops, rails boxed, X, sway bar tube up front, built all my own arms. I should change my sig as its not even accurate anymore. Big ol pile of money thats worth about nothing as it sits. Is there a shrug emoji on here? lol

Just turned some delrin body bushings today so I can set the body on the frame once before sending it to powdercoat.

Keep up the good work, keeps me motivated.


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1056170 - 03/01/18 05:40 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,028
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,028
Pottstown, Pa
Have no idea what it would take to install the Z07 hubs on those spindles. Bigger, better bearings would be a good thing, especially since the Blazer and G bearings don't cut it.

I got 12 doing your measurement off the ball joint pad and my caster gauge only goes to 12 and the bubble was maxed at over 12. I'm a slow mover when it comes to making progress. Today sprayed all the underside of the frame where I did work and touched up what need it. The frame firewall forward was stripped and painted 11 years ago when I did the 427 install, it was due for touch up. That Eastwood Extreme frame paint is nasty stuff, especially when you are spraying right in front of your face.

Next is get the car down and see what the real numbers are. Then pull the spindles and LCA off again for final prep and install. Playing with Ackermann on the bench slowed things down. Needed to see on paper first what's needed to increase turn in on the inside wheel. It appears the arm is 2 degrees in and needs to go to 2 degrees out. That would be about 1/2", don't know that is doable on the B arm, it much larger than the skinny G arm. Will have a backup set of spindles on hand in case of ruining the ones i have. Only had 1 degree before tear down. Moving the spindle forward only picks up less than 1 degree on paper. I doubt i will see 2 degrees. A car that doesn't make tight corners like an open road course can get by with less, and autoX car should have more than 2. I checked my daughter's GTP when I serviced it and turn out was 6 degrees at 33 degrees.

The Afco/Strano coil overs should be a good setup. I ran an Autox at Hershey in late Nov, in the rain. Strano set up the course and beat the snot out of what I think was a Honda Type R. He was quickest that day.
Bob

#1056226 - 03/05/18 03:34 AM Re: Front suspension mount blueprinting [Re: Warriorridge]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,028
mmc427ss Offline
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,028
Pottstown, Pa
I was hoping Justin had more progress on his frame to share. Really interested to see the front suspension come together.

My 86 seems to progress at a snail's pace. Yesterday the LCAs were installed for the last time. Bought new sleeves for the Global West LCA Del-A-Lum bushings, didn't use them, to tight in the Delrin inserts. Cleaned up the old sleeve faces on the drill press and used them, they will allow better rotation of the sleeve in the inserts. Torqued the LCA pivot bolts to 60 and the arms still rotates freely with very little effort to rotate them. Done.

Getting at the knobs for the Viking double adj shocks in the front has always been a PITA, no finger room through the holes in the bottom of the arms. A few minute with the die grinder opening up the access, and dressing the sharp edges that should be a lot better.
Also thought about moving the hole in the arms for the sway bar link rearward to compensate for the LCA moving forward 11/16" but after looking at the alignment of the links to the arm decided the little bit that could be gained wasn't worth the time, so they stayed in the same location. Link length will need to be checked after bump is corrected, a sway bar touching the tie rods can be corrected by lengthening the links. A 36mm F-body bar has been run for years with no fitment issues. Someday a better bar may be installed, for now that bar fits very well.

After a long deliberation the front spring were cut before install. The rule of thumb is measure the ride height, determine how much to drop, then cut 1/2 of that amount off the spring free length at the bottom of the spring. I found that's difficult be very precise at. The first 2" or so is almost flat, the free length didn't vary, and I could't see how that would effect ride height. My measurements said cut about 3 3/4" to drop 1/4" in ride height. My no balls attitude had me cut 1 3/4" off the coils. After the car is turned around in the shop and back on the alignment rack I can check ride height after the new static specs are adjusted in. The springs need to come out again when the bumpsteer part of this project is started. At that time the springs could be trimmed again. So the very conservative spring cut the first time around was probably a good decision.

After an hour of figuring out where to put the internal spring compressor so I didn't have to fight the spring to get it back in, marking the compressor arm locations on the springs to make the next removal easy, the first spring was in. The other spring was like 10 minutes to install. Arms, springs, spindles are NOW on the car. May find time tomorrow to get the rotors, wheels/tires on and get the car on the ground. No calipers, shocks or sway bar needed for the next round. Once the preliminary alignment is done it's back to jackstands again, pull the springs, put the wheels back on and run the numbers through full suspension travel. With no springs you can check most every movement of each corner. Will be interesting to see what adding all the caster has positively effected on each corner.

When i did bumpsteer correction on the car in 2010 only the right side of the car was checked and adjustments were made. Pulling the springs, shocks, sway bar links was done to check bump from full compression to full droop. I always contended the the left and right sides would have different bump curves, plots. Both sides will be checked this time. I'm hoping to be wrong about the left and right being different.
Bob

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