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#1054637 - 11/30/17 06:22 PM Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations  
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promaxx Offline
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Looking for input on aluminum heads and roller cam setup for my ccc 350. I'm running l98 128 heads and comp xe262 hydraulic flat roller right now. What duration/lift to keep engine vacuum for the ccc. Also what size intake runner volume?
Thanks


87ss T56 350 l98 aluminum heads comp XE262 edelbrock tes pypes race pro cat back
#1054641 - 12/01/17 01:28 AM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Any idea what idle vac the engine has currently with that cam? The CCC like to see higher vac at idle. The XE262 HR shows 230 duration on the intake and 236 om the exhaust which has generally pushed the limits for good idle vac on a 350. Is your idle vac less than 14"?

I run a 427 SBC with AFR 210s, Comp XE288HR and initially built it to run CCC. But I had the cam ground for a 112 overlap (degree in was 112.5) to increase idle vac, it idles at 16.5 vac. But large cubic inches makes that cam appear much smaller. The CCC system worked very well, no problems. Others have have good success on 383 that weren't to wild.
Idle vac is the key to good CCC performance.
Bob

#1054642 - 12/01/17 03:38 AM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Its been awhile since I checked but I believe I was getting 15" vac @idle . So I can keep the same duration and increase the lift with a roller cam setup and still have good vacuum?


87ss T56 350 l98 aluminum heads comp XE262 edelbrock tes pypes race pro cat back
#1054649 - 12/01/17 02:55 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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I'm no expert on how much duration a CCC can handle and still perform as designed. Most seems to think less than 220.
What is necessary is keeping the throttle plates closed at idle so all idle A/F mixture is regulated by the MC solenoid. The tendency is to open the throttle plates to get a better idle and try to use the idle mixture screws to adj the idle mixture, like you would in a non-CCC carb. On a CCC carb opening the throttle plates reduces signal to the idle circuit, the O2 see lean, MC dwell will go down trying to richen the mixture. It's all a delicate balance trying to get the MC to adjust A/F at idle.

I would assume because you live in CA using the CCC may be necessary to get past the smog testing there. Being you now have an illegal 350 in place of the 305 that is one strike against you that you need to hide. I see you have TES and a cat-back system which will help the visual. Here in PA I had the same problem, passing a visual. I run the Hooker 2050 headers and a cat-back system, but no cat now, a 3" test pipe in it's place. Yes it hurts top end power but torque down low is probably better.

What carb and intake are you running now?
Bob

#1054650 - 12/01/17 03:21 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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promaxx Offline
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I just smogged in Sept, no problems there engine burns clean with the kitty on.I am running e4me ccc quadrajet and a dual plane edelbrock performer with egr provision.


87ss T56 350 l98 aluminum heads comp XE262 edelbrock tes pypes race pro cat back
#1054651 - 12/01/17 03:59 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Buick Runner Online content
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
I'm no expert on how much duration a CCC can handle and still perform as designed. Most seems to think less than 220.
What is necessary is keeping the throttle plates closed at idle so all idle A/F mixture is regulated by the MC solenoid. The tendency is to open the throttle plates to get a better idle and try to use the idle mixture screws to adj the idle mixture, like you would in a non-CCC carb. On a CCC carb opening the throttle plates reduces signal to the idle circuit, the O2 see lean, MC dwell will go down trying to richen the mixture. It's all a delicate balance trying to get the MC to adjust A/F at idle.

I would assume because you live in CA using the CCC may be necessary to get past the smog testing there. Being you now have an illegal 350 in place of the 305 that is one strike against you that you need to hide. I see you have TES and a cat-back system which will help the visual. Here in PA I had the same problem, passing a visual. I run the Hooker 2050 headers and a cat-back system, but no cat now, a 3" test pipe in it's place. Yes it hurts top end power but torque down low is probably better.

What carb and intake are you running now?
Bob



That is what the idle air bypass is for, it allows some air to bypass the throttle valves at idle so they can be further closed and is the preferred way to adjust idle mixture. Base ignition timing also affects throttle valve position at idle, the more advanced the base timing is the further closed the throttle valve can be. Having the throttle plates too far open at idle can cause nozzle drip while too far closed can cause off idle stumble, it really is a balancing act.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1054652 - 12/01/17 06:44 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: Buick Runner]  
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Hatfield, PA
Originally Posted by Buick Runner
Originally Posted by mmc427ss
I'm no expert on how much duration a CCC can handle and still perform as designed. Most seems to think less than 220.
What is necessary is keeping the throttle plates closed at idle so all idle A/F mixture is regulated by the MC solenoid. The tendency is to open the throttle plates to get a better idle and try to use the idle mixture screws to adj the idle mixture, like you would in a non-CCC carb. On a CCC carb opening the throttle plates reduces signal to the idle circuit, the O2 see lean, MC dwell will go down trying to richen the mixture. It's all a delicate balance trying to get the MC to adjust A/F at idle.

I would assume because you live in CA using the CCC may be necessary to get past the smog testing there. Being you now have an illegal 350 in place of the 305 that is one strike against you that you need to hide. I see you have TES and a cat-back system which will help the visual. Here in PA I had the same problem, passing a visual. I run the Hooker 2050 headers and a cat-back system, but no cat now, a 3" test pipe in it's place. Yes it hurts top end power but torque down low is probably better.

What carb and intake are you running now?
Bob



That is what the idle air bypass is for, it allows some air to bypass the throttle valves at idle so they can be further closed and is the preferred way to adjust idle mixture. Base ignition timing also affects throttle valve position at idle, the more advanced the base timing is the further closed the throttle valve can be. Having the throttle plates too far open at idle can cause nozzle drip while too far closed can cause off idle stumble, it really is a balancing act.



I need to get the 2 of you together to tune my carb =p


Justin
1986 Black SS
350 L05 - Hooker Longtubes - FlowMaster True Dual 2.5" - Electric Cutouts - Electric Fans - Transcooler
#1054654 - 12/01/17 08:56 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Wouldn't a super wide LSA with higher lift and duation help with idle vaccum? like 117-121? almost like a blower or turbo cam?


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS GEN IV intake, 92mm TB, 30lb injectors, LS3 cam and valvesprings, stainless long tube headers, Microsquirt ECU, Built 200-4R, B&M Megashifter, Torsen LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Suspension Kit, UMI Front & Rear Braces. Check out my build thread: http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/126188-SSLOW6-0-Build
#1054665 - 12/02/17 07:45 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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The wider the separation "overlap" of the lobe centers generally the more vac at idle. If you look at common cams for the LS engines you will notice the factory cams have 114-117 compared to the "standard" 110 that most Comp cams are ground on for a normally aspirated engine. This is done for a few reasons, better idle vac, tamer idle without all that rumpty rumpty, easier for the PCM to get the emissions clean, more usable low end torque.
http://ls1.com/forums/f7/camshaft-guide-information-write-up-127350/
Bob

#1054676 - 12/03/17 05:22 AM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Maxx, what's the budget? I'm assuming you have a 262h flat tappet 218/224-110 cam right now and thinking about a roller.

In general, you're probably better off staying with the cam you have now and spending the difference the roller set up would cost on a really good set of heads. A set of 195 AFR with your current cam would give you about a 65HP increase and make peak power around 6000 rpm with no other changes - I'd guess you're making peak power around 5300 right now shifting around 5700 - 5800rpm????

Later you could move up to a little bigger hydraulic roller later and add another 25HP or so and have a set of heads that would feel right at home on a 11:1, 406 with a solid roller if you ever wanted to really push the smogger envelope.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#1054688 - 12/03/17 05:05 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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southern ca
I looking to stay around $1k on the heads. Whats the story with Pro Comps and Skip White NKB's? There is a local machine shop selling Pro Comp castings that they assemble. Should I stray away? I was thinking about pulling the trigger on some aluminum fast burns but they have 210 intake runner which probably wont match up with my xe262 cam . 65 hp from head change, I will just leave the cam alone for now . Think you just sold me a set ...So here are my picks

GM Fastburns 210 intake cc 64 chamber
AFR 195 intake cc 65 chamber
JEGS 195 intake cc 64 chamber
SUMMIT RACING 170 intake 62 cc chamber

Thanks


87ss T56 350 l98 aluminum heads comp XE262 edelbrock tes pypes race pro cat back
#1054691 - 12/04/17 01:10 AM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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BadSS Offline
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Originally Posted by promaxx
I looking to stay around $1k on the heads. Whats the story with Pro Comps and Skip White NKB's? There is a local machine shop selling Pro Comp castings that they assemble. Should I stray away? I was thinking about pulling the trigger on some aluminum fast burns but they have 210 intake runner which probably wont match up with my xe262 cam . 65 hp from head change, I will just leave the cam alone for now . Think you just sold me a set ...So here are my picks

GM Fastburns 210 intake cc 64 chamber
AFR 195 intake cc 65 chamber
JEGS 195 intake cc 64 chamber
SUMMIT RACING 170 intake 62 cc chamber

Thanks


No problem.

I'd stay clear of the ProComp, NKBs, as well as the Jeg heads as they seam to have quality control issue. The others you listed do not come remotely close to the AFR195s. However, Jegs has the ProMaxx 200's (link below) for $850 shipped and would probably be a good choice for you. The AFR195s would be my first choice, but the difference in cost probably doesn't justify the extra cost for you. Comparing the two, the ProMaxx 200 heads would be fractionally less responsive in normal driving (but still more responsive than the heads you're running now), the AFR195s would start making increasingly more power starting around 4000 rpm and make around 12-15 more HP up top with your current flat tappet. The differential in performance would continue to grow with the AFR195s as you increase cam and or engine size but for now, promaxx,,,,, I think you would be extremely happy with the ProMaxx 200s.

http://www.jegs.com/i/ProMaxx-Performance/723/9200A/10002/-1

#1054740 - 12/09/17 05:43 AM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Maxx, I just realized the ProMaxx 200cc heads I linked are opened up to a 1206 intake gasket. I have no experience with the 3701 you're running, but I'm pretty sure it's basically a 2101 Performer with EGR and the 2101s do not have enough metal to cover a "1206" head. The Performer RPM Q-jet intake can just barely cover a 1206 port, but I typically go with the Air Gap or the big Brodix dual plane for a set of "1206" heads which are square bore (Holley) intakes. None of these have EGR and I'm going to assume that will be an issue. If you're "stuck" running an EGR, then the AFR 195s are "1205" heads and your 3701 will work fine on those.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#1054746 - 12/09/17 04:41 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Thanks for the info, It's between the AFR's and the Trick Flow 195's . I'm stuck running the EGR for now even though its just there for the (showing) .


87ss T56 350 l98 aluminum heads comp XE262 edelbrock tes pypes race pro cat back
#1054748 - 12/09/17 07:48 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Agree with BadSS that you need to be careful about intake to head gasket coverage depending on intake used. I run a no longer produced Weiand 7525 intake, spreadbore, single plane with EGR and AFR 210 heads. A 1205 FelPro gaskets is used and trimmed a little below the top blue line to get good coverage of the head port. The intake is then port matched to the trimmed 1205. Make note that AFR doesn't really show a perfect fit intake gasket for some of the heads.
With the 7525 intake and 210s there isn't a lot on coverage above the manifold ports. The gaskets have a tendency to be pushed up at the corners of the intake runners. I had 3/16" alum welded above the biggest offender, #5-#7 ports and milled it flat. Hindsight I should have done a four intake port areas as there is some push at the those corners now, the #5-#7 has no push now. Will get them fixed next time I pull the intake.

Check with what ever head manufacture you use and ask whether there are EGR ports in the heads. The AFR 195s may have it. The 210 doesn't. I needed to show an EGR for emissions and with a 1 1/2" alum spacer raised it up high enough to clear taller valve covers and keep it under the stockish air cleaner. I also drilled/tapped and installed a pipe plug in the bottom of the intake plenum where the EGR would dump the exhaust gas. This insure there is no vac leak to the EGR valve sitting on the intake.
Bob

#1054749 - 12/09/17 07:58 PM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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One other thing to note about cyl heads. If you intend to run an emissions header such as Edel TES or Hooker 2050s which have a crossover pipe to connect the left to the right side they are designed for standard exhaust port height. Some heads have a raised exhaust port, the AFR 210 do, and the crossover pipe will not work with the raised ports. I run the 2050s and had to fabricate a crossover pipe to fit, also had to make clearance for the crossover pipe past the Lakewood scattershield. Also had to notch the Milodon oil pan to pass the crossover in front of it.

One other note about raised ports is the stock A/C compressor rear bracket bolts to the #1 header port bolts, raised ports require surgery on that bracket.
Bob

#1054751 - 12/10/17 03:04 AM Re: Ccc Gen 1 350 head/ Roller cam recommendations [Re: promaxx]  
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Good point on the exhaust and bracket Bob. The AFR195s are raised 0.100" (AFR210s are raised 0.250"), but the Trick Flow 195s have a standard location exhaust port. If you even needed to,, I would think on the shorties with the 3-hole collector flanges, you could sandwich a collector flange between two collector gaskets and drop the crossover pipe down more than enough that it should work. If the headers use donut gaskets maybe a thicker gasket (if needed)? If they're ball flange, maybe inserting and welding another flared flange within the current flange would drop it down enough? 0.100" really isn't that much unless things are tight to begin with and it might not present an issue - maybe the OP can spend some time googling to make sure the AFR 195s would work OK with the crossover tubes. Dyno Don over at TGO would probably know.

The AFR would give about 20HP over the TFS and to me would be worth the $300 difference. To get 20HP more out of the TFS, you would have to spend at least that or more getting someone to do a little porting on them,,,, or spend about 3x that much upgrading to a hydraulic roller. If you do go AFR and buy through Summit, make sure they order the AFR with the hydraulic cam valve springs - should be a no cost change.

Also, if you have the older TES headers with the 1.5" center pipes, they're probably going to steal a few HP. I'd think since the AFR and TFS both take a 1404 exhaust gasket that the TES should at least bolt on, but would probably overlap the ports on both heads a good bit on the 1.5" pipes.


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