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#1048977 - 03/15/17 03:13 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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Porkland Orygun
Does this look like the unit? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flywheel-Sbc-t56-/122398345904?hash=item1c7f828ab0:g:~jcAAOSw32lYyHBQ&vxp=mtr

#1051386 - 06/10/17 05:43 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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Ok so I have most of my stuff. The aluminum 427 block is on the bottom in the wooden crate. The rest of the stuff is kinda obvious there. The AFR's are the 75cc 220's and as you can see I have the T56 laying on the floor there. I also got a Holley 870 Avenger. This is taking a little more time than I thought because I suffered a partial bicep distal tendon tear on April 11 of this year but I'm just about ready to get back to work and start making money again. I've got some Scorpion 1.6 full rollers, you can see the girdles there and I'm working on cam and lifters. I got a DUI, rofl, "Davis Unified Ignition" distributor and I've got Ed Ash down in Roseburg Oregon to do the assembly work. Additionally I've got a transmission guy that I've known for decades thats going to install the new hd gear set for me. Believe me when I tell you this is not "annual pipe dream #11", I'm doin this.

So, if anyone will indulge me. The 427 is the 2 piece rear main seal. I'm certainly going to get the clutch pedal setup from Sick Speed. When I got the T56 it came with everything off of a 97 Camaro including the hydraulic slave cylinder. I guess I'm going to have to throw away some parts huh? Given the horsepower this thing is going to make I believe its safe to say I should get a scattershield bellhousing. What I need to know from someone who "REALLY" knows is what flywheel I'm going to need and if there are any modifications other than the gear set that I have to make to that transmission. Can I run an 11" clutch in that?

Is there any resale value in that stock flywheel, pressure plate and stock bellhousing? Thanx in advance.


[img]https://imgflip.com/i/1qnuuu[/img]

#1051390 - 06/11/17 02:07 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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mmc427ss is the go to man here on this, listen to him!!


Leo Paugh
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#1051395 - 06/11/17 06:08 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Leo, thanks for the kind words.

To address the 427 build first, the horse before the cart.
Odd things about building a 427 SBC using the Dart Little M block, other blocks may vary. A good builder should be aware of deviations with that build.
Is your block a Dart or a World Products?

The rear main cap on the Dart block is taller, oil pump drive shaft end play will become excessive because the cap lowers the pump. I run a Melling HV pump, between it and the rear main cap is a Milodon baffle (helps with oil control at the rear seal) which also drops the pump lower. Shaft endplay was over .200". A BBC pump shaft was cut down to achieve .070" endplay. Even after decking or surfacing the heads still ample.

A Milodon stroker pan was used partly because it uses all the oil pan bolts to seal the pan. The Moroso stroker pan omits every other bolt, has maybe 8 or 10 less bolts. At the time my 427 went together there wasn't an acceptable pump pickup due to the pump sitting lower in the pan, the Milodom pickup for their pan was hitting the pan floor. Had to fabricate a pickup to located it parallel and 1/4" off the floor.

Canton and Fel Pro both make a very nice one piece seal pan gasket for a 2 piece seal block, I went with the Canton, it's black, not blue.

Cam to rod clearance is a concern with this build. Choosing the correct connecting rods to allow a stout cam is critical. Today there are a couple rod choices to gain clearance. Eagle CRS6000B3D 6'' rods in my build which limit cam choices. A Comp XR288HR billet roller in the engine has an .850" base circle, it looks like a toothpick, sad. .050" clearance is what is necessary. Crane 1.6 rockers improve the lift somewhat to .560-.570". If I was to pull the engine apart to change cams a set of Callies Ultra XD stroker rods would go in to allow more cam on possible a bigger base circle, big expense.

Pistons are JE with mirrored inverted dome,10 cc, custom compression height (1.020", standard height is 1.00") so I didn't have to deck block to get quench to .045" using a .040" gasket. 10 years ago there was no "stocking" piston available to build the 427, period, a high compression 434, yes. Today JE has more stocking pistons available for this build, but compression ratios are high. If, when, the engine comes apart a clean up of the decks will achieve close to .040".

Have had good luck with the AFR 210 heads for 10 years. But did have retainer locks all but fail on three valves, caught that just in time before dropping valves. Heads are 76CC and static compression is 10.1. Decking the block and surfacing the heads would jump that maybe .2.
Have changed the valve springs for a much lighter setup, PSI beehive springs and Manley tool steel retainers, this after about 12K miles on the engine. The Comp roller noses over at 6K, the beehives can't help that. We do have a 350 SBC running with a Howard .600" lift hyd on GM rollers, beehives, and it's still making power to 7K, the beehives I attribute to that.

Couple things to check with the AFRs. The retainers are large, Comp Pro Magnum rockers didn't have the necessary rocker to retainer clearance (.050"), the Crane Golds have plenty of clearance. Because the intake valve is larger the I and E valves are moved apart, this makes rocker to valve stem alignment more critical, a PITA finding the compromise. Also pay attention to getting the correct length pushrod for your combo, it won't be an off the shelf item.

That doesn't cover all the 427 SBC quarks I found but should help with your build. I would make sure your builder is aware of them. Have read every piece of info I could find on this build and no where have i ever seen the oil pump shaft addressed. When I called Milodon about the pick they sold for the stroker pan they were unaware at that time of it not working on a Dart block, "just turn it so it doesn't hit" was their answer. Pitiful.

In another post will hopefully help you with the stickshift part.
Bob

#1051425 - 06/12/17 02:16 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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The T56 install:

One thing for sure is over the past 10 years available swap parts and suppliers for a T56 install have increased tremendously because today this trans is swapped into just about anything you can imagine. 15 years ago when I did my install there were few options. The aftermarket T56 for mechanical linkage, the LT1 trans with it's pull clutch and LS trans which was used primarily behind an LS due to flywheel and hydraulic parts available. All three of these trans use a different depth bellhousing and input shaft length.

My swap was easy when the two piece seal block went in using the aftermarket trans, I had McLeod make me a 20lb, 153 tooth, 2 piece seal, billet flywheel, bolted a 10 3/4" Centerforce DF clutch to it, wrapped it in a Lakewood 15015 scattershield, and used the G-body mech clutch linkage.

Today with the advent of the Magnum T56 which is based on the LS t56 there are numerous flywheel/clutch combos that can be used. Quick Time has stepped up to the plate and offer bellhousings to do any install.
https://holley.com/brands/quick_time/products/drivetrain/bellhousings/bellhousings/

As far as flywheels to use with the 2 piece seal engine I haven't kept up with the available options. I suggest calling McLeod, Centerforce, Ram and see what they offer. I would go with a billet steel, although nodular iron is OK for light duty street use. Lightweight alum wheels should be available but I stayed away from them due to resurfacing issues and wanted something a little heavier to smooth out the idle with bigger cams. That's why a custom 20lb billet was chosen, had it resurfaced when I went with a more aggressive clutch a few years ago.

A far as clutches go your pocket book is the limit. And what you built the car to do will dictate clutch choice. On the street the power of the new engine will toast any street tire you can run, the clutch isn't taxed unless you like to spin the tires at 70 mph in 4th gear. Drag radial tires don't put to much demand on a clutch either on a stick car. But when you put a true slick that sticks hard at the track a weak clutch will show up quickly.
My car is a street car but has made a 100 passes at the track with three different tires. The Centerforce DF was sweet with street tires, worked well with the DR tires but when I went with a Hoosier QTP slick the clutch was changed out for a 10 1/2" Ceramix disc setup, 700 lbft capable. It's very aggressive, chatters in reverse, almost an ON/OFF engagement, difficult to drive on the street, but doesn't slip at the track.

My next clutch will be a twin disc setup. But most suppliers don't recommend them for drag racing, so i need to get that out of my system before installing one. Not sure why that is but would think it has something to do with the floater plate and abusing it. Most people that do a twin are looking for very good bite with high power engines and low pedal pressure on the street driven car. Top of the line twins with the flywheel included can be WELL over a grand, close to 1500.
McLeod makes an nice RST for reasonable (under 800) that would work with my existing flywheel, my first choice for a new clutch.

A bigger clutch disc isn't the answer on a T56 to get more bite. A lesson learned by talking with engineers at Rockalnd Standard Gear was about disc spin down. The job of the trans synchros is to match the speed of the input shaft to the speed of the trans internals. A very large disc spinning at engine rpm needs to be slowed down when the clutch is disengaged to upshift,. A smaller disc requires less effort to slow. This is why you see twins with small discs, some under 9" today. Just food for thought.
Bob

#1051435 - 06/12/17 10:42 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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Bealzybub Offline
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Porkland Orygun
First of all I'd like to thank you mmc427ss for continuing to offer up your very valuable advice and time. My hats off to you sir.

Ok so heres the block that is in that wooden crate in that link I posted a couple posts back. Its a "Speedmaster" and I thought the guy that sold that to me told me that it was an "Australian" manufacture but I know it got shipped out of California so I guess I'm not sure of much about its origin. [img]https://imgflip.com/i/1qrvf2[/img] They did the machine work to clearance for the rods at the cam tunnel. Heres a link to Speedmasters website and the block I got. https://speedmaster79.com/pce286104...025-aluminium-engine-block-usa-machined/ Additionally they ran it out to 4.120 because my builder wanted to finish the last little bit off. My builder https://www.facebook.com/Ash-Racing-Components-162825677075929/ He says he's built a bunch of these aluminum SBC 427's and that along with the fact that he built the 348ci sbf that pushed my friend Dan Aleshire to 231mph and change garnering him the Bonneville speedway C gas roadster world record I'm thinking the guy (Ed Ash) has several tricks that most engine builders arent even aware of. I actually ended up with Mahle pistons and couldnt help myself and got AFR 220's (open chamber) rather than the 210's.I told the engine seller what I was going to get and he said with the piston/head combination I should be at 10.8:1. I'm still thinking with the dual plane 7501 manifold its going to make plenty of torque. I talked to Mike Jones, he's a cam grinder and he's gonna grind me up a cam. I told him I wanted something that could idle all day without loading up, leave me with plenty of vacuum for my brakes and I wanted as much torque as I could get as low as I can get it. I obviously had to fill out that spec sheet he required to determine which grind would work best for my application. In our conversation he stated it would be making torque right off of idle and would stop at about 4500. Perfect in my opinion for a street car. I doubt this car will ever see a dragstrip but I do intend to run it around PIR a couple of times to dial in the suspension for street use. As I stated in a previous post I got Scorpions 1.6 rockers and I guess we'll have to be aware of the clearance issue you mentioned, you're not the first person I've heard that from.

I saw that pan you were talking about, with only half the bolts, I certainly aint goin that route. I did however purchase a high volume melling pump, MV55 I believe it is and the pan is one of the items I'm still short before I can send the engine to the builder. Things got slow when I hurt my arm and the "nickels and dimes" on this motor are more like $500 and $1000. I'm sure you're aware that the pan, custom pick up and windage tray is going to land right there at about $500. On that subject, what do you think about a crank scraper too huh?

For tires I got a brand new set of what came stock on the C4 Corvettes. Its a Goodyear runflat in 17". 285/40/17's for the rear and 255/45/17 for the front. They might be a little big, hope that wasnt a mistake. I opted for 17's because of the stiffer sidewalls as opposed to the 15" balloons. Still havent settled on a wheel. I like the look of a D hole street lock but I'm not finding anything with my bolt pattern in 17. Its got the ford 9" in it but I got Dutchman axles in the factory chevy bolt pattern. And I did get the rear disc brake kit for that also. They're installed.

So and the rest of the stuff I mentioned, I got in what I considered to be a screamin deal. Others said I was buying a load of crap and yes there was some crap in there but I got; 7 3970010 blocks at varying bores sizes, one of them a complete core motor, another a counter replacement 350 with the 1182 forged crank. The melling oil pump (nib), used Holley 870 Avenger, those Crower Enduro II 1.52 stainless full rollers, a set of Comp Cams lightweight pushrods, a DUI distributor, stud girdles, windage tray, valley pans (?) 2 double roller timing sets (new) and a bunch of stuff I'm forgetting for $850. I've recouped most of my money by selling off those blocks.

At this point I'm just about ready to get back to work after the bicep distal tendon tear and am anxious to make this happen. Before that I was expecting to have this together by now. Thank you again sir for your help and advice.

#1051436 - 06/13/17 12:15 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Sorry, forgot that was the block you have. Not familiar with it but looked at the specs and appears to have the necessary goodies. The thing I'm envious of is the fact it's almost a 100 lbs lighter than the Dart iron block.

Milodon stroker pan, #30908, is a good fit for the G crossmember, has a windage tray that attaches to the pan rather than on main cap studs, a tall oil filter can be used, mini starter fits nicely. I did have to relocate the drain on the pan from the rear to the side, it would have dumped right onto the blocksaver plate of the Lakewood shield. Canton makes a nice road race pan which I considered, but may have limitations on filter and starters.

Don't interpret me as bashing your builder, that didn't happen, I wouldn't do that to any builder I have no personal experience with. Just know from doing my build there are numerous things to pay attention too, and have talked to Shafiroff and Mitchel when I was researching my build.

When i bought my AFR 210 the next jump was to the 227s, that was 10 years ago. Today AFR has even better designs and flow, more choices. The large cc, 76cc chambers, almost a zero deck, .040 gaskets and 10 cc reliefs got me to 10.1. This allows me a surface cleanup which keeps compression low enough for pump premium. As long as we have these exotic super cars flooding the market 93 will remain available, so we're good for quality fuels for some time yet. Here 93 Sunoco is over $3.25 today, I remember when it was a buck more expensive. Ouch!

I do run a knock retard system on my engine, It's an older version of the J&S Safeguard with adjustable sensitivity and individual cyl retard (not batch retard), rev limiter, and also runs the ignition system. A dist is used that has centrifugal and vac advance, but only a pickup inside, the J&S fires the coil off the dist pickup. Nice setup, expensive but never have detonation. http://www.jandssafeguard.com/index.html

For intakes and carb it's personal choice and application. I run a Weiand 7525, an old single plane with EGR, a necessity were I live. It flows very good, fits easily under the hood with a stock like air cleaner and is close to a Victor Jr performance. Peak torque on my build is right around 4500 also. Was never looking for a killer hp build, a flat torque curve was more important.
For a carb an 800 cfm Qjet with a dozen mods gets the job done, and is a great street carb.
Bob

#1051443 - 06/13/17 05:20 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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Bealzybub Offline
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Porkland Orygun
"The thing I'm envious of is the fact it's almost a 100 lbs lighter than the Dart iron block."

As you are aware, the more weight you can get out of the front the better you can make a car handle (generally). I want this car to handle so well no one even understands how (lofty goal huh?) In that effort I've got all aluminum up there. Aluminum water pump, core support, carb, accessory brackets, heads (obviously), block, getting rid of the AC, moving the battery to the trunk, lightweight high torque starter. I figure I'll be shedding around 200 pounds forward of center................

I'm looking into those coil over front A arms with the deeper upper pocket so I wont have to sacrifice to much ride quality but that will come later after I get this mill and transmission taken care of and installed.

What are you doing for exhaust and how loud are you Bob?

Russ

#1051452 - 06/13/17 09:18 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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Porkland Orygun
Checked the part# on my rods. CRS6000BST20. I cant seem to find a part# that matches this, in the USA. Odd that the only ones I can find with my part# are for sale in Australia. From what I can see the only difference between your part and mine is 10 grams. So, lol, I'm saving 3 more ounces in my block (635 VS 645)

Last edited by Bealzybub; 06/14/17 12:55 AM.
#1051458 - 06/14/17 12:51 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Have not had a set of those rods in my hands to know how they get additional clearance, but appears they have changed something. Don't think they were available when i did my build. My rods are the CRS6000B3D.

Yep I understand getting weight off the front end is a good thing, But I find A/C, cruise a necessity. I consider my build a touring car, not a Pro Touring build. When i started this build more than 10 years ago the LS7 was just released in crate form, it was my first choice but just couldn't justify the 15K to have it sitting under the hood ready to fire up. It was financially easier to hide spending a couple grand at a time, I'm married, still.

As I mentioned earlier where I live in PA, a strict emissions state especially when I did the build required a visual to pass. So the exhaust system needed to comply back then. Emissions compliant headers, and a catback system. Hooker 2050 headers, a custom made crossover pipe, a 3" test pipe and a sweet mandrel bent stainless cat back exhaust. It actually flows very well and doesn't hurt power until about the same time the cam runs out of breath. Had it on the chassis dyno several years ago, 428/434 at the wheels, not bad for a single exhaust truck engine, Loud, no, but enough noise to keep the windows up when cruising at speed.
Bob


Last edited by mmc427ss; 06/14/17 12:54 AM.
#1051480 - 06/15/17 12:03 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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Bealzybub Offline
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Porkland Orygun
Doesnt one side of that Hooker loop to the outside of the frame? I cant have that. I'm building this thing to turn. And ditto on the money thing. Thats kinda why I went the way I did on that T56. It was either drop big coin all at once on the T56 with the gear set I wanted or go this route. And like I say I have a friend that could probably do that whole rebuild in a couple hours.

So far as the air conditioning, I used that speed calculator on the web. 26" tire, 3.73 rear end, .50 final drive, 4500rpm...............

Anyone know what the wind chill factor is at 185mph, rofl...........

Anyone wanna guess what the first part would be to fly off that car if I ever tried taking it there? I mean I'm sure this thing will have the power to get it there but uh........

Last edited by Bealzybub; 06/15/17 12:04 AM.
#1051511 - 06/15/17 05:39 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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The hooker's that go outside the frame are the 2242, not a choice for a car that needs to turn.

The 2050s are shorties that have a crossover pipe that runs from the left over to the right side common collector. Not what you would call a perf header, but are required if you need to remain emissions compliant. They have a CARB certification. But they are now discontinued, no longer available but used.

Not a fan of most Hookers, Hedman makes a better header for the G install. It's said they fit well and perform well.
http://www.hedman.com/product-detail/65218

Here's another choice. http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/street-stock.html Various pipe,. collector choices.
Bob

#1051576 - 06/19/17 05:12 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
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Bealzybub Offline
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Porkland Orygun
Thank you for the info on that. I've seen those schoenfelds and actually those were what I was going to go with at this point. So but let me ask you this. Whats up with those mid length headers? Seems to me they should flow pretty well by design and you could probably get your tubes up a little. I've got 3" all the way to the back and thats a pretty big tube. Seems to me if they centered in the same location as say a 2" or 2 1/2" you'd still have an albeit little more tube closer to the ground. My point is that again albeit it only 1/4" lower it just seems if you got middys you could run your exhaust tube up slightly higher. I've seen too many "flat spotted" headers at the tube/collector area there.

Last edited by Bealzybub; 06/19/17 05:17 AM.
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