MonteCarloSS.com
MonteCarloSS.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#1047017 - 01/11/17 02:53 AM T56 C'mon now  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Bealzybub Offline
Member
Bealzybub  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Porkland Orygun
Hello fellers. I was just wondering if anyone knew anything about which one I need (T56) or if its even a good idea. Seems I read they'd take 600 foot pounds of torque. I have an 85 SS with the ford 9" already in, 3" dual exhaust and an aluminum 427 small block on the way. I believe it'll have enough power to continue to push it through the wind and it seems like I saw a .53 final gear on that T56, one of em. They were a little different geared for different applications.

Thanx in advance !!!!!!

Last edited by Bealzybub; 01/11/17 02:53 AM.
#1047025 - 01/11/17 05:02 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,207
SickSpeedMonte Offline
15+ Year
SickSpeedMonte  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,207
MD
You'd want an "LT1" T56 to mate up to your Gen-I SBC. They are rated at 400 ft-lbs in stock form, IIRC. They can be built to handle more, of course. I think the stock 6th gear is 0.50:1. If you need a clutch pedal setup, check out my link in my signature.

#1047035 - 01/12/17 01:51 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,127
Onebadbowtie86 Offline
10+ Year
Onebadbowtie86  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,127
Traverse City Michigan
I beleive the 93 f body t56 is rated for less tq, 350 vs 450 ft lbs IIRC. The 93 T56 has differnt gear ratios also.

If you put the t56 in your car, order one of Bernies pedals. Made my car so much easier and enjoyable to drive.


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1047090 - 01/13/17 10:39 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
mmc427ss Online content
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
Pottstown, Pa
If you have an "aluminum 427 small block on the way" I would go the new route and install a Magnum T56, good for mega torque, can be used with either electric or mechanical speedo, better shifting, choice of ratios. The only down side would be cost of the install, but you only buy once.

Buying a used T56 is a crap shoot, some are good condition right out of the box, some need to be opened up and have parts put in. Several of us have had to put new parts in a T56. No matter what route you go for a trans you still have to buy the rest of the parts to install it.
There is really no cheap route to doing a T56 in a G-body, If you decide to go the race ready way you can spend 5K, or more.

Bought my T56 15 years ago brand new, 2K delivered to the front door. My wife struggled to drag it into the house. I struggled to explain what it was, and how much I spent. For the past 8 years that trans has been living behind a Dart 427 SBC, a 100 passes at the track, 12K miles on the street and it's still performs well. BUT, I don't abuse it, don't flat shift it at 5K, make sure it warmed up, I respect it for what it is. It's a used, 400 rated trans, with 15 year old technology.

As far as available ratios go in a T56.
Wide ratio 1st to 4th, 2.96 1st gear.
Close ratio has a 2.66 1st gear.

Various combo of 5th and 6th gears but most used donors will have the .50 6th. I prefer the .63 6th gear over the .50 6th. The .63 has a .80 5th which makes the downshift from 6th to 5th sweet, especially at speed. A T56 that has the .63 is a close ratio box from 4th to 6th compared to the .50 6th gear, .63 trans has better high speed manners.
Running 4.11 gears the with wide ratio and .63 6th now, you can drive it in 6th at 40 mph. The 2.97 1st with 4.11s makes for a ton of torque multiplication, you need good tires.
If I was in the market for a new trans a 2.66 with .63 6th would go in, a Transzilla most likely.
http://rsgear.com/products/performance-r...ANZILLA-Magnums
Bob

#1047091 - 01/13/17 10:41 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,127
1 Slow SS Offline
10+ Year
1 Slow SS  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,127
Coxs Creek KY
Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
If you have an "aluminum 427 small block on the way" I would go the new route and install a Magnum T56, good for mega torque, can be used with either electric or mechanical speedo, better shifting, choice of ratios. The only down side would be cost of the install, but you only buy once.
Bob



You know that Bob! I have a new one sitting in my shop waiting on my new LSX 454. wink

Mega torque = 700 foot pounds.

This unit will be at it's limits with my engine!

Regards,
Ron Kahley.

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 01/13/17 10:44 PM.

Do it for yourself not the attention of others.
#1047097 - 01/14/17 01:50 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,127
Onebadbowtie86 Offline
10+ Year
Onebadbowtie86  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,127
Traverse City Michigan
I have to agree, if you can afford it just buy a new magnum. I could have almost bought one with the money I have into rebuilding my used t56.


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1047101 - 01/14/17 03:47 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
mmc427ss Online content
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
Pottstown, Pa
Broke the 3/4 keys with only about 4k on the trans behind the old 305. Replaced 3rd gear, 3/4 synchro, steel 3/4 fork, modified 1/2 fork, solid keys went in 1/2 and 3/4 synchro and didn't spent to much to do that repair. Fortunately my labor is free.

I spent a little time researching bellhouings to install a Magnum to various engine. Quick Time, now owned by Holley, has stepped up to the plate and offer a bell to adapt a Magnum T56 to about any engine now. They even offer a bell with a 17 degree fork angle to install into a G with mechanical linkage clutch, RM-6023BP, but is 750 bucks. The Lakewood 15015 shield I use is now discontinued, it was cheap at 450. The QT shields are a nicer unit, lighter, much stronger.
Bob

#1047106 - 01/14/17 05:20 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Bealzybub Offline
Member
Bealzybub  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Porkland Orygun
Yeah I get it about buying something used. So heres an option I was considering. Used T56. I have a friend that rebuilds trannys and he knows how to do it. I mean he does for a living everyday and works for a top notch company. I'm fortunate enough that he might even do it for free if I begged a little but thats not my style. Lets just say I'm sure he can do the rebuild for next to nothing in labor. So for those of you that know, whats the difference between the T56 and the magnum? Is it the case? If so I know what I need to do. If its just heavier internals, that might be an option. Know that I never intended to put an unknown used T56 behind this, it would have gotten rebuilt. So now just to tease. I have the aluminum 427 sbc. Its one of those Australian units. I'm going with 4" stroke, 4.125 bore. Eagle 4340 non twist crank, eagle rods, JE pistons. I've got AFR 220's in the 75cc version. Air gap manifold and I've got a "Carb Shop" carb that started out life as a 750 vacuum secondary and then they did something to it to where it flows 980 cfm now. I'm learning thats probably too much for what I want which is as much torque as low as I can get it. For what that block package is capable of I'm going to keep it conservative, like to have my power brakes work, need something that can sit and idle without loading up, but still fun. Plan on doing a little frame strengthening. Any input that you guys have would be appreciated. I'm building this to run on the street and be able to turn IE getting weight out of the front. I'm putting the battery in the trunk, AC gone, found one of those aluminum core supports that'll go in. Rear end is a new ford 9" trac loc 373.

#1047112 - 01/14/17 03:01 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,666
John S Offline
15+ Year
John S  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,666
Orange County NY
All good information, I bought a used T56 when I converted. The trans lost 2nd gear shortly after I installed it. You never know what your getting... I'm lucky since Rockland Standard gear is not far from me so off the tranny went. Rebuilt to their Transzilla specs @ 850 Lb Ft torque with my choice og gears and cost me about $1400.


1986 Monte Carlo SS, 427 SBC,
T56 6spd, Moser M9 3:70
SC&C G5,, Spohn Tubular A arms,
Pirelli P Zero 275-40x17 rear, 245-45x17 front
#1047114 - 01/14/17 03:16 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,127
1 Slow SS Offline
10+ Year
1 Slow SS  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,127
Coxs Creek KY
Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
The QT shields are a nicer unit, lighter, much stronger.
Bob



I have the Quick time SFI unit along with the Mcload RTS clutch assembly for daily driving to the grocery store. All those nice parts in front of a Moser 12 bolt makes me so happy. smile

Only thing I need is another clutch pedal.... I sold mine when I thought to dump the entire idea for the swap.


Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 01/14/17 03:17 PM.

Do it for yourself not the attention of others.
#1047115 - 01/14/17 03:43 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
mmc427ss Online content
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
Pottstown, Pa
Comparing a factory installed T56, LT or LS versions, to a Magnum is like comparing a 7 1/2" rear to a 9". Outside dimensions about the same but the guts are much more substantial. Larger input, output shafts, much better synchros, multiply shifter locations, stronger gears, and other upgrades, designed for 700 lbft. The older T56s were anywhere from 350 to 400-450 rated dependent of 1st gearing. Upgrading an old trans to higher torque rating or better synchros is very expensive.

Don't know what an Australian alum 427 block is, can you enlighten or post a link to the block.
My 427 SBC is a Dart cast iron block, standard deck height, Eagle crank, 6" rods, custom JE pistons for 10:1, AFR 210 heads (76cc), small custom Comp hyd roller, Weiand single plane intake with 800 cfm. It was build as a torque motor, currently runs out of breathe at about 6K.
The BIG problem you run into with my combo is rod to cam clearance. My cam is a .850 base circle in order to get higher lift and duration, it looks like a toothpick. To install a larger cam the rods would need to be changed to a special/expensive rod to add clearance. With 1.6 rockers about .570 lift is the limit.
Before installing the engine rod to cam clearance needs to be checked, minimum of .050" necessary.
This engine idles at 16" vacuum, very mild manners, no rumpy-rump idle, it does exactly what I built it to do, lots of torque down low, but pull strong till the cam gives up.

The Trac-lock in the 9" is an OK unit, just as it wears it doesn't work as well, most will change it out for something better when you put a lot of abuse/power to it.
Bob

#1047133 - 01/14/17 08:31 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Keithss Offline
Member
Keithss  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Jackson,mi
Have you looked at the Silver Sport package? It looks like they can provide everything. Not sure how good they are but it sounds OK.

#1047134 - 01/14/17 08:54 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
mmc427ss Online content
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
Pottstown, Pa
Silver Sport is a spin off from Keisler. Not sure what happened there but is now called Silver Sport. Several years ago Keisler made an effort to produce his own five speed trying to one up Tremec, at some point he filed bankruptcy, now enter Silver Sport.

Silver Sport has a video of an El Camino getting a TKO, they missed a few key elements of the install.
https://shiftsst.com/articles/cat/general-motors/post/g-body-1978-1988/
Bob

#1047151 - 01/15/17 03:17 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Bealzybub Offline
Member
Bealzybub  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Porkland Orygun
This is the package I got but I upgraded to JE's cause I was changing pistons anyway to accomodate the 75cc chambers. http://www.racingjunk.com/Drag-Racing/18...HEADS-NEW-.html And see MMC mentioned the cam clearance. Not the first time I've heard this and this block says it has "standard deck height and cam location" so it sounds like your issue is gonna be my issue. Interesting that I'm looking for exactly what you build intention was. Wish I would have seen your build sooner so I coulda asked what you would have done differently. MMC427ss what headers/manifolds are you using on that?

Last edited by Bealzybub; 01/15/17 03:51 AM.
#1047153 - 01/15/17 03:36 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Bealzybub Offline
Member
Bealzybub  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Porkland Orygun
And howbout this huh? That ad should be gone soon lol ........

https://offerupnow.com/item/detail/114102020/monte-carlo-ss-front-clip

#1047158 - 01/15/17 05:48 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
mmc427ss Online content
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
Pottstown, Pa
If that's a GM nose that's a great price, if a fiberglass repo I would forget it.
http://www.mikesmontes.com/Front-Bumper-Nose-New-GM_p_370.html

Because I'm located in the wonderful state of PA, emissions testing is mandatory before they can issue an annual safety inspection sticker. When I put my engine together 10 years ago I needed to pass a visual emissions test, all that stuff needed to be in place. For an intake a Weiand 7525 single plane with EGR and 800 cfm Qjet was used. Actually a great intake, flow comparable to the Edel Victor Jr, EGR was nonfunctional from day one, but was visually there.
Exhaust system, an excellent ATR 2 1/2" stainless cat back system was retained from the old engine, modified Hooker 2050 emissions headers now flow into a 3" test pipe that replaced the cat after the first visual inspection. Not what you would call it the optimum setup for a 427 but don't think it hurts the power a lot, on the low end it may even help. Rear wheel was 428/435, not bad for a trunk engine with single exhaust.
More cam and tuned headers/duals are a future project to add another 75 hp, just not a priority currently. The car runs mid 12 s @ 115 on my street tires now, slicks low 12s, fast enough for an old guy.
Bob

#1047159 - 01/15/17 06:40 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Bealzybub Offline
Member
Bealzybub  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Porkland Orygun
I picked up those parts, thats why the ad will go away. They are genuine gm parts. I got a nose about 18 months ago from mikes and all three of these are the mustard yellow whatever material it is they make em out of. Clarifying on the rear end (maybe glorifying), its a Currie ford disc brake 9". It had a spool when I got it as well as what looked like the Mosier cut to fit axles. Well they werent right so I had Dutchman Motor sports here in town make some axles for it so thats all tightened up. Coleman racing has a great deal on drivelines that take the big ford ujoint. So, you said your motor is ten years old? 10 year old AFR210's ? Were they the same back then?

#1047165 - 01/15/17 04:59 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
mmc427ss Online content
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
Pottstown, Pa
Yep heads are 210s race ready, bought in 2004 so they are now 13. I would expect that the newest version of the 210s should flow a little better, they now use a metric valve stem instead of the "old school" 11/16", subtle changes, of course the price is a little higher these days.

Those heads have not been off the engine, yet. About 4 years ago several of the retainer locks were close to total failure, luckily caught that before a valve dropped. Installed new seals and Manley locks, and replaced one of the Crane rockers.
The next year I was thinking it was time to R&R the valvetrain especially after the previous lock problem. Installed PSI beehive springs, tool steel retainers, and the other usual tasks with an R&R. That took a ton of weight out of the valve train, notice a difference, not really, rarely buzz the engine over 5500 on the street, no need. Rev limiter set to 6200, don't even hit that at the track.
All 16 of the old AFR springs were run through the spring checker, none out of spec, hmmm, was the 700 bucks I just spend worth it, a new cam would like it.

Something to remember about these AFRs, 210 and bigger, the intake valve is move away from the exhaust to allow a bigger intake valve. This effects rocker contact on the valve. On the 210s this is a tedious chore to make all 16 "touches" happy. You can only manipulate the pushrods guide plate so much until the rod rubs the head, or exhaust stem contact is lousy. When you step up to bigger AFR heads you need to do offset rockers to get good alignment, haven't done that setup, actually bought the 210s to avoid the hassle of using offsets with 227s.

Limited slip choices are determined by what do I want and what is available. Just replaced the Eaton posi with an Eaton True Trac in the 8 1/2", also went to 4.11. Street driving and drag racing you can't tell the difference, both work well. I've done a little cone killing and intend to do more, the True Trac should help save a few cones.
With a 9" lots of choices, the reason I was negative toward the Traclock was some of the feedback others have had, never owned one. But did install one last year in my son's F150 Dana 44. Looking at it I could see it was a wear item, won't work as good down the road as it does when new.
Lance did a locker with lighter springs, probably the best overall choice.
Bob

#1047279 - 01/18/17 12:50 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: 1 Slow SS]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,207
SickSpeedMonte Offline
15+ Year
SickSpeedMonte  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,207
MD
Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Only thing I need is another clutch pedal.... I sold mine when I thought to dump the entire idea for the swap.



Have you seen the new setup that mounts a tilton directly to my bracket? It packages really nicely.

#1047288 - 01/18/17 06:15 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,127
1 Slow SS Offline
10+ Year
1 Slow SS  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,127
Coxs Creek KY
Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Only thing I need is another clutch pedal.... I sold mine when I thought to dump the entire idea for the swap.



Have you seen the new setup that mounts a tilton directly to my bracket? It packages really nicely.


No I haven't Bernie, I'm interested to see it though. Once I get my garage done I'll be back at the car again and asking you for another pedal. laugh


Do it for yourself not the attention of others.
#1047328 - 01/19/17 04:00 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,207
SickSpeedMonte Offline
15+ Year
SickSpeedMonte  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 9,207
MD

#1048940 - 03/14/17 02:59 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Bealzybub Offline
Member
Bealzybub  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Porkland Orygun
Ok So I'm moving along with the project. I got that block, the aluminum 427 SBC. It came with a Eagle crank, 4.00 stroke, Eagle H beam rods, got the AFR 220's And I'm so frickin happy I sold a 83 CL and was able to buy a T56 !!!!!!!! Came with everything and I could use some help here I guess.

It came out of a Camaro and the guy says it will all bolt up with just one adapter piece I need to go on my two piece rear main motor. I got the clutch, pressure plate, slave cylinder, linkage. I'm definitely going to be buying that Sick Speed pedal and bracket assembly. I understand the trans is a little soft for the torque this motor is going to provide but I figured I'd get this whole thing together then rebuild that tranny when it starts giving me issues. Its out of a 96 Camaro.

#1048952 - 03/14/17 03:06 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,025
SSLance Offline
10+ Year
SSLance  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,025
Peoria, AZ
I believe with the two piece rear main seal block and the 96 Camaro (pull type LT1 style clutch) you'll need one of the high priced one off flywheels. The one piece and two piece rear main seal blocks use completely different flywheels...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1048970 - 03/14/17 09:54 PM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
mmc427ss Online content
15+ Year
mmc427ss  Online Content
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,494
Pottstown, Pa
That's one of the problems with doing a T56, LT1 or LS, to a two piece seal block, special pricey flywheel necessary. Try McLeod, Centerforce, Ram may also have one for that application. Go billet steel, may not be an alum available for that install, stay away from cheap, cast, a nodular would be OK. I assume your 427 is internally balanced, important info for flywheel purchase. Also a pull type LT1 clutch wouldn't be my choice. The Lt1 and LS input shafts are different lengths so you can't swap bells between them, the LT1 and LS installs use specific parts for each install. Call the clutch/flywheel venders and get feedback from them, use them for an education on your particulars, then buy what you can afford. Be leery of reusing the clutch, a PITA to pull out the T56 because the new engine fried it with a ton of torque and good tires.
Something to think about, a scattershield. Quicktime makes an expensive shield to adapt most any T56 to anything. I run a Lakewood shield and McLeod billet flywheel, two piece seal, the clutch is a 700 ft-lb Cermix disc, a miserable thing which I've adapted to, just don't let anyone else drive it. To much clutch is just as bad as not enough. If you drag race with slicks you need lots of clutch, for the street you can get by with less. Also if the car runs 11.48 a scattershield is required.

Bob

#1048975 - 03/15/17 02:53 AM Re: T56 C'mon now [Re: Bealzybub]  
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Bealzybub Offline
Member
Bealzybub  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 31
Porkland Orygun
Well I guess I've got parts for sale then :-(

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Random Images
870/thumbs/DSCF1731.JPG
by NothinYet
629/thumbs/Monte_SS_020_small.JPG
by ss4ever
640/thumbs/Mirrors.jpg
by BLUE
500/thumbs/02Big.jpg
by SickSpeedMonte
724/thumbs/leopards.jpg
by jenifuriouSS
Help MonteCarloSS.com


Recent Contributors
dns87ss
Authorized Vendors
Tell them you saw it
on MonteCarloSS.com!


CustomMonteSSParts.com
Dixie Monte Carlo Depot
GSI Interiors
HRpartsNstuff
Mikes Montes
Savitske Classic & Custom
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0