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#1001565 - 05/02/14 07:18 AM Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete?  
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88 ISStock Offline
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88 ISStock  Offline
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St. Louis, MO
While attempting to move shift points by adjusting the tranny cable I fried a new beefed up 200-4R purchased from a reputable builder. I have since learned (from this forum) that is the perfectly ineffective and improper, while at the same time an excellent way to burn up a transmission.

I've had luck rebuilding transmissions over the decades, so I intend to repair/rebuild this one myself, hopefully just clutches/bands if I'm lucky. The car is not a driver by any means, and I have recently read of improved shift going "non-lockup" build and operation.

So, I am interested in the advantages of changing to a permanently non-lockup operation. Has anyone experience going this route? Considering my healthy stroker and only being a weekend cruiser is this approach generally preferred for less erratic shifting?

I am referring to changing to a non-lockup TC and whatever different internal hardparts might be needed, not just something like "unplugging the TCC solenoid" approach.


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front, & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear.
#1001573 - 05/02/14 11:10 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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The PC Surgeon Offline
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Salisbury Mills, NY
Are you talking about a manual shift kit?

#1001599 - 05/02/14 03:22 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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lefty o Offline
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lefty o  Offline
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mpls,mn
i'd talk to CPT transmissions (the old Art Carr). they know how to build a very tough non lockup 2004r. ive run an old Art Carr 2004r for years, best investment ive ever put into my car. all the lock-up garbage is absolutely not needed. just be fore warned, a real good 2004r is not cheap$$$$!


bad black '87 SS, 474hp-355
#1001608 - 05/02/14 04:49 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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xian_praise Offline
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Mount Vernon, Ohio
One big advantage to eliminating the lock-up "feature" is lower cost on a quality torque converter. A lock-up unit that can actually handle a WOT lock-up with Your HP is $$$.

If I were to do my car (more specifically: my trans) over again, my preference would be 4th gear lock-up only, which I believe is possible. My second choice would be no lock-up at all which is also possible.

To throw another name around as resource would be Jake Shoe out of Texas. I've never met him or purchased from him, but I've talked to him and he knows these trannies. He's also posted information on this subject on another forum. Here is the link to his business:
http://www.jakesperformance.com/

#1001628 - 05/02/14 10:03 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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MecGen Offline
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Montreal Canada
Originally Posted By: 88 ISStock
so I intend to repair/rebuild this one myself


If you are going to tackle this yourself, have a look here :
http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/oft200.htm
Gives some good overview on shift points and how to get what you want.
PM sent

Regards


Space may be the final frontier
but its made in a Hollywood basement.
RedHotChilliPeppers.

1987 MCSS.- Sold
1984 MCSS.- Sold
1984 MCSS - came back smile
1995 Mustang 5.0
1965 Pontiac GTO
1969 Pontiac Firebird
#1001652 - 05/03/14 02:01 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: The PC Surgeon]  
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88 ISStock Offline
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88 ISStock  Offline
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St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: The PC Surgeon
Are you talking about a manual shift kit?


No. But that would have been one way to correct the problem I kept having with erratic upshifting at WOT right after installing the rebuilt unit. It got so bad I ended up with NO upshifting at WOT!

The car has had a problem too of chugging/dying coming to a stop like the TC not unlocking. I've changed the TCC (and of course TC with the rebuild), but still had to smack the shifter to neutral coming to stops.

For the non-lockup method I understand there are valve body/valve changes, and of course a non-lock TC.

For the shift points I have to learn more about the governor weights and springs, -- and line pressure adjustments. And leave the cable alone after adjusting it once.


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front, & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear.
#1001653 - 05/03/14 02:05 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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88 ISStock Offline
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MecGen,
Thanks for the link. Good info all around, but for my purposes mostly on governor and line pressure affect on shift points.

I've got time to learn up before getting home again to work on it.

Last edited by 88 ISStock; 05/03/14 02:07 AM.
#1001656 - 05/03/14 02:48 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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The PC Surgeon Offline
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Salisbury Mills, NY
Gotcha. Obviously, I have a manual valve body th400 and occasionally miss the overdrive gear. Considering a gear vendors unit to bring the od back.

#1001658 - 05/03/14 02:54 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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lefty o Offline
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lefty o  Offline
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mpls,mn
for the price of a gearvendors, you can have a very wicked overdrive transmission built.


bad black '87 SS, 474hp-355
#1001659 - 05/03/14 02:56 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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The PC Surgeon Offline
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Salisbury Mills, NY
Already considered that, but the HP I make now and what I plan to make, it wont last long. Unless I opt for the 5k version. a used GV will set me back $1500 or less. If I pull the trigger. Undecided as of now.

#1001660 - 05/03/14 03:10 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: The PC Surgeon]  
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lefty o Offline
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lefty o  Offline
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mpls,mn
Originally Posted By: The PC Surgeon
Already considered that, but the HP I make now and what I plan to make, it wont last long. Unless I opt for the 5k version. a used GV will set me back $1500 or less. If I pull the trigger. Undecided as of now.
im in the same ballpark, thats why i about gagged when i price out the gear vendors. im building a big inch small block now that should do a very tame 600+hp, and i have a wilson manifolds 500hp 2 stage nitrous kit. i guess i will eventually see how much power my old Art Carr 2004R can take ( they did tell me when it was built it would easily handle an 800hp big block).


bad black '87 SS, 474hp-355
#1001661 - 05/03/14 03:21 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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The PC Surgeon Offline
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Salisbury Mills, NY
Sorry for the temp. hijack of the thread, but it is relevant. I'm pushing 650HP without the 300 shot of nitrous. ( may never use it). I already rolled a sprague on the TH400 last summer. If that Art Carr holds up, that would be great. I know an excellent tranny guy here and asked him to build me one (2004r). He said the parts wont hold my HP and torque, not to waste my time. He could have easily taken my cash.

#1001716 - 05/04/14 02:20 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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200kSS Offline
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Bloomsdale, MO
What happened to the "going to T56" that's been in your sig. for years?


88 SS Black/Oxblood. Power Tour car
80 Malibu 2dr. Drag Week car
#1001900 - 05/06/14 03:24 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 200kSS]  
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88 ISStock Offline
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Originally Posted By: 200kSS
What happened ...?


Yah busted for sure there. ::embarrassed:: The rig has been on blocks for several years. I got the major parts, but I work overseas. I haven't been able to string enough time home to work seriously on a one-off swap. The burned up aftermarket auto is laying next to the car so I figure much quicker rebuilding that thing instead of all cutting, torching, cutting, wiring, fabbing, shortening and such needed for a stick.


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front, & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear.
#1001917 - 05/06/14 06:25 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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200kSS Offline
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A T56 swap is not exactly "one off" any longer. In recent years a lot of the trial and error work has been done and if you have the major parts I bet you'll find the rest of the parts are more attainable than in years past.

Just my opinion, as I'm sure you're aware of the cost of a "built" 2004R.

Curious who built the now dead transmission....even if it wasn't a builder error.


88 SS Black/Oxblood. Power Tour car
80 Malibu 2dr. Drag Week car
#1001962 - 05/07/14 02:15 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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88 ISStock Offline
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I have no reason to fault the builder. My error. As stated (admitted) above, I attempted to adjust shift points using the cable. Wrong. I have nothing to risk by opening it up to see if it's just a matter of replacing fried discs/bands.

I agree the intel on a manual swap is immense on this forum due to contributions of all the fellas. The mods are not that complicated one at a time, just take time.


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front, & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear.
#1071253 - 06/30/21 06:12 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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88 ISStock Offline
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88 ISStock  Offline
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Holy Smelly Rotten Exhumed Thread, Batman! It shows how much I've had time for the car til now. Pandemic offered a convenient segue for retirement, but growing weary of looking forward to nothing but enjoying myself. Anyway, I sent the 'freshly rebuilt - immediately trashed tranny back to Performa-Built in '16 and Alan was super lenient with a check and repair (he mentioned the tranny held but it appeared the TC disintegrated). So, back in it went back then and I prompting cracked every single one of the alum. rockers and bent nearly all the pushrods (some only noticeable when rolling them - I learned alum. rockers are cheaper and prettier, just not as strong). All new ProMAgnum rockers and hardened pushrods (and counted out coil bind and re-checked PR length). A detail remaining with re-assembling the dist., polishing out the intake and valve covers, and getting it all put together for some fun!


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front, & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear.
#1071263 - 06/30/21 10:18 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Sometimes it takes a while to get it going again, but sounds like you have your work cut out. Just wondering, did you over-rev and trash the rockers, or did they let loose some other way?


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1071272 - 07/01/21 09:37 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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88 ISStock Offline
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88 ISStock  Offline
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A simple matter of over-revving, combined with too many times as well. These were pretty purple Howards, but I imagine there may be bulletproof aluminum out there. All were tight except the ones with more noticeable cracks. I just recall a knowledgeable friend didn't find it surprising with the revs I mentioned doing more than once (6,500+) trying to adjust shifting to 2nd. I found later the linkage was not even close. Sometimes an impressive error is just a profoundly dumb one. As you say, we're close. Proof I'm living right is nothing completely let go to totally fubar the whole motor.


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front, & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear.
#1071298 - 07/05/21 12:52 PM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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200kSS Offline
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Bloomsdale, MO
Still running the CCC Q-jet setup? Custom chip?


88 SS Black/Oxblood. Power Tour car
80 Malibu 2dr. Drag Week car
#1071582 - 08/14/21 12:06 AM Re: Auto Rebuild + Lockup Delete? [Re: 88 ISStock]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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Yuma, AZ
Thinking back over all the 200-4Rs I went through just to hold up to 500hp, I thoroughly agree that the limits of the 200-4R are frequently waaaaay overstated.

About lockup: I'd keep it for good mpg with highway cruising. To make the converter clutch live a long, happy life, have it engage only in 4th gear and only with manifold vacuum above 10 PSI or so. That should keep it from interfering with shift quality too, btw.

Last edited by MAP; 08/14/21 12:10 AM.

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