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#939167 - 07/15/12 12:01 AM Springs springs and more springs.....  
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Jameson Offline
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Elizabeth City, NC
Sold my 86 today.... Woot!.... Now time to focus on the 88...

Here we go, I am going with the SC&C adjustable control arms and Proforged extended ball joints to make my own Stage 2 plus but less the cost not using Howe balljoints. I am going to use Belltech 98+ S10 2in drop spindles and here I am stuck on springs. I don't know if I should go with the SPC springs from SC&C or mismatch my own setup to my needs. I want the car lowered 3in so the front will need a 1/2-1in drop springs and 3in rear springs but the rate is what im concerned with to have a consistant setup and not botched parts thrown at it. Im torn between the A body springs SickSpeed is using and the 3in OPG springs.

Does anyone have any insite on go with the raked look and run the SPC springs from SC&C or get a spring to get the rear down to 3in lower.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#939305 - 07/16/12 02:57 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Jameson]  
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Jameson Offline
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Jameson  Offline
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Elizabeth City, NC
ttt... nobody?


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#939656 - 07/19/12 09:44 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Jameson]  
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84supersport Offline
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Louisville, KY
The ball joints will lower the car another 3/4-1" so you do not need a lowering spring for the front. A stiffer spring yes. I've heard the rear 3" springs from OPG put s the rear right on the bump stops. Personally, I'm going with a taller tire in the rear and 2" drop springs.


84 Monte SS stolen September 2012. 077 DFE Jefferson County KY plate. $2500 reward. Vortec headed 350ci, th350, 3:73 limited slip cast aluminum cover, Autometer gauges, Pro-Stick, 2.5" fiberglass hood.



Matt
#939665 - 07/19/12 12:14 PM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: 84supersport]  
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SickSpeedMonte Offline
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MD
Here is my car with the CPP A body springs in the rear

http://sickspeedmonte.com/ProShot.bmp

I don't know what the rate is, but I might be able to measure it at work...

#939700 - 07/19/12 08:18 PM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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MAP Offline
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Yuma, AZ
Hi SSM,

Great picture!

Everyone - in general, fractional changes to front spring stiffness should be reflected in the rear too. So if we increase the front stiffness by 50%, then the rear should go up 50% too, etc. IIRC, the stock front/rear spring stiffnesses go in a ratio of about 3:1.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 07/19/12 08:19 PM.
#939701 - 07/19/12 08:24 PM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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Jameson Offline
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Elizabeth City, NC
Originally Posted By: 84supersport
The ball joints will lower the car another 3/4-1" so you do not need a lowering spring for the front. A stiffer spring yes. I've heard the rear 3" springs from OPG put s the rear right on the bump stops. Personally, I'm going with a taller tire in the rear and 2" drop springs.


The ball joints are only 1/2in longer so that is all that it should lower the car, I still havent decided on springs yet but have ordered everything else in the mean time. I may go with the 2in rear springs from them but not knowing the spring rate is what is holding me up. I still dont know what to do with the front springs.

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Here is my car with the CPP A body springs in the rear

http://sickspeedmonte.com/ProShot.bmp

I don't know what the rate is, but I might be able to measure it at work...


I love the stance but as I stated in the rear lowering thread im more concerned about the effects of roll steer in the rear to go that low. I keep asking smokin86 about what his setup is but havent gotten any information from him as I plan on running 18x8 and 18x9.5 Coys C5's.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#939724 - 07/20/12 12:53 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Jameson]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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Yuma, AZ
Hi Jameson,

There are ways to adjust rear roll steer independently of rear ride height. Do you have a numerical target?

Best,
MAP

#939726 - 07/20/12 01:32 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: MAP]  
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Jameson Offline
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Elizabeth City, NC
Originally Posted By: MAP
Hi Jameson,

There are ways to adjust rear roll steer independently of rear ride height. Do you have a numerical target?

Best,
MAP


Negative, Im lacking in the suspension geometery department of knowledge. I have just done what others have to fix the roll center in the front but like I said I have not decided on a spring front and rear as of yet. Im thinking about a stock height spring up front with a higher rate as I see 550-600lb/in is the common there and 150-175lb/in seems to be the common rear and bring it 2-3in down in height in the rear at the same time.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#939739 - 07/20/12 07:49 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Jameson]  
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Performance Offline
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East Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Jameson
I love the stance but as I stated in the rear lowering thread im more concerned about the effects of roll steer in the rear to go that low. I keep asking smokin86 about what his setup is but havent gotten any information from him as I plan on running 18x8 and 18x9.5 Coys C5's.


Honestly, I have yet to feel any roll steer in my car. Mine and Bernie's car have the same stance just with a little different setup. But, I want be much help since I retained most of the stock suspension. The spring rates will play a big factor in how your car sits. For springs, I use drop springs that have slightly higher rates than factory. Be careful as it would be easy to have the front sitting higher than the rear and the ride quality will be terrible.

18x7s and 18x8s


1986 Monte Carlo SS
#939741 - 07/20/12 09:24 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Performance]  
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84supersport Offline
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Louisville, KY
OK, I see that you aren't using the ball joints that SCandC sells on their website. I'm pretty sure they advertise that there is a 3/4" drop with those ball joints in particular.


84 Monte SS stolen September 2012. 077 DFE Jefferson County KY plate. $2500 reward. Vortec headed 350ci, th350, 3:73 limited slip cast aluminum cover, Autometer gauges, Pro-Stick, 2.5" fiberglass hood.



Matt
#939762 - 07/20/12 02:29 PM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: 84supersport]  
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SickSpeedMonte Offline
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MD
Eric,

How often do you push your car? I don't feel the effects in mine while driving normally. It's the moderate to hard transitions where I notice it.

#939811 - 07/21/12 01:08 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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Jameson Offline
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Elizabeth City, NC
Ok well I spoke to Marcus at SC&C for about a hour today and im going towards his advice and returning the Proforged ball joints and drop spindles and going with his SPC springs, Stage 2 plus and stock ZQ8 spindles.

Last edited by Jameson; 07/21/12 01:14 AM.

1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#939825 - 07/21/12 03:46 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Jameson]  
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Gruvin Offline
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Jameson, I was unaware you can get the ZQ8 style drop spindle... can you link where you were going to get them? Every one that I have seen are identical to the Monte drop spindles, not the newer divorced Sealed hub style.


My first SS! Sold Jan 2004
[Linked Image]
87 SS bought 9-5-04: Sold 6-18-2010 - project 87 finds a new home with another undisclosed MonteCarloSS.com member!
#939826 - 07/21/12 04:08 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Gruvin]  
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Jameson Offline
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Jameson  Offline
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Elizabeth City, NC
Belltech 2102 is the model of them... I ordered mine from Summit but they will promptly going back to them on Monday lol.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#939910 - 07/22/12 04:59 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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Performance Offline
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East Tennessee
Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Eric,

How often do you push your car? I don't feel the effects in mine while driving normally. It's the moderate to hard transitions where I notice it.


I don't push the car that hard. You have to remember that it only has just under 28,000 miles. So I baby it. But, I have pushed the car hard with this suspension setup. No roll steer and no vibrations. This is stock drivetrain. Now, I could see someone could get roll steer with a little more horsepower or with a little different drivetrain setup. But, my '88 had a 450hp motor and was setup more for the drag strip. I had no issues with it lowered 3" either when pushing it hard on the street. There is a lot of varibles that could cause issues with one car and not another. Again, I have had good luck.


1986 Monte Carlo SS
#939914 - 07/22/12 07:12 AM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Performance]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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Hi Folks,

If you have the stock rear suspension geometry, then you have about 10-11% rear roll (under) steer, and it's fairly linear.

You won't feel it as a separate attribute, but it will contribute to the car's overall tendency to oversteer or understeer. Virtually all A/G bodies understeer: it takes quite a determined change or combination of changes to get the car into oversteer.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 07/22/12 07:13 AM.
#939924 - 07/22/12 02:24 PM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: MAP]  
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Performance Offline
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East Tennessee
If my car has rollsteer with it lowered 3", then it's so little that I can't feel it. For what I do with the car, the suspension setup is perfect in my personal opinion only. May not be for someone else though. It would take a huge difference to justify changing anything about it. Again, this only my opinion. I lower these cars mostly for looks and to gain some in the handling department. This is my show car only.


1986 Monte Carlo SS
#939930 - 07/22/12 03:33 PM Re: Springs springs and more springs..... [Re: Performance]  
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Norm Peterson Offline
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Norm Peterson  Offline
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state of confusion
Unless the roll steer puts the rear of the car into "loose steer", it's hard to identify directly.

Lowering the A/G chassis actually increases the roll steer in the direction of greater vehicle understeer, which feels more stable to most people if they notice anything at all.

And that may well be enough to match any given individual's definition of "perfect".

Installing LCA relocating brackets will reduce the amount of understeer, and in a direct before to after comparison the rear might feel a little more willing to get the car to turn, or even "loosening up a little" afterwards.


Norm


'08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (mine)
'10 Legacy 2.5GT, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)

Gone but not forgotten dep't: '95 Mazda 626, V6/5M; '79 Chevy Malibu, 4M/5M; '87 Maxima, 5M; '72 Ford Pinto, 4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A . . .

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