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#944460 - 09/05/12 04:55 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: Norm Peterson]  
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MD
That's my understanding as well; to stay on the lateral to rearward edge of the "tire circle", you certainly can't have any harsh discontinuities in longitudinal acceleration. I guess one possible advantage of an automatic transmission is that it can probably be tuned to shift gears without an appreciable discontinuity in power delivery, meaning that you can avoid a forward weight shift in the middle of a turn while under power.

I wonder how the paddle shift road race cars handle this... and if the TCI TCU could be made to mimic them... my guess is no.

#944467 - 09/05/12 05:58 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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Norm Peterson Offline
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You have to have rev-matching of the engine to suit whatever the gear shifted to requires. In road cars, paddle shifters in sequential gearboxes work to varying degrees of success that seem to depend on how hard you're driving at the moment in question (but at least they tend to be smoother when you're driving harder and only seem to be harsher than necessary in mild driving).

The TCI TCU unit can't do the rev-matching, which means that you'd have to soften and slow the shifting AND do a little rev-matching yourself as the TCI is going about making the shifts happen. I know that it is possible to rev-match an OE AT on downshifts, so you might have to slow the TCI down just for that.

Somewhat deeper in, the transmission system pressures might simply need to be reduced a bit or the right fluid passages restricted a little. One of the tricks to firm up AT shifting for the dragstrip involves drilling certain holes in the separator plate slightly oversize. I see no reason you couldn't work that the other way for softer shifts, possibly by replacing an aftermarket plate with an OE plate if the only difference is a few hole sizes.


Norm


'08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (mine)
'10 Legacy 2.5GT, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)

Gone but not forgotten dep't: '95 Mazda 626, V6/5M; '79 Chevy Malibu, 4M/5M; '87 Maxima, 5M; '72 Ford Pinto, 4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A . . .
#944505 - 09/05/12 11:18 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: Norm Peterson]  
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howehot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Norm Peterson
Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Why not dial back the trans shift firmness?

^^^ That's exactly what crossed my mind.

You definitely have to take more shift firmness out and probably dial the shift speed back as well. Plan on working with the custom programming that TCI mentions in their product description.

Near as I can tell, TCI as a business is mainly oriented toward drag racing and other activities where quick, firm shifting is valued much more than getting those shifts accomplished smoothly. But at autocross, during on-ramp blasts, and out on the big tracks what you need most is the smoothness so that the chassis is not upset by the shifts.

Meantime, why not try doing a few lift-throttle manual upshifts. The closer you can get to simulating good manual transmission shifting, the less likely it will be for upshifts to unsettle the car. Note that it is also possible to kick the throttle on a manually forced downshift to smooth those out, too. This will take a bit of practice, though, as you'll be trying to learn how to drive an automatic rather differently from what all of your experience to date has led you to believe is how it's done.

For autocross, can that tranny controller be made to hold 2nd and NOT drop back to 1st (no matter what)?


It is at least possible that your early throttle opening is a little too aggressive for easy throttle modulation (this being another thing that drag racers and most street performance folks would rather have more of than is good for corner-carving). If your throttle is cable-actuated you can slow down this early throttle motion via mechanical modifications, but if it's a throttle-by-wire arrangement you'd have to do something at the ECU tune level.


Norm
.

A throttle control does lesson the firmness and this is why I say I need to learn the limits and required throttle control of the car, in a controlled setting. This is way more car all around than I've ever driven hard before.

The TCI unit allows adjustment of the shift points but I don't think I can eliminate the 2-1 downshift. On the autocross this has not been a problem. I have not done a lot of playing with this. Been working on the engine tune and the super lean condition it had. I plan to talk to TCI this weekend at LS Fest about the paddle shifters if they are there.

Dan

#944651 - 09/07/12 03:48 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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Hi Folks,

Yes - transient inputs are getting the rear tires closer to the edges of their traction circles. Just a quick bit of physics here: aside from the throttle, a shift causes a rapid change in internal energy of moving parts, which transmits a given impulse (INT[Fdt]) to the drivetrain. If the impulse is constant, the average force can be decreased by increasing the time of application. So, a slower shift is less likely to break traction when the car is being driven close to its traction limits - this is consistent with what everyone has been saying here.

Another way, of course, is to increase the size of the traction circle (or ellipse, whatever,) itself, so that there is more margin for any given force profile. One could view the former approach as lowering the water, and the latter, raising the bridge. Even better, do both - but keep a keen eye on the car's net handling balance.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 09/07/12 03:48 AM.
#944664 - 09/07/12 12:28 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: MAP]  
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Whether you increase the size of the traction circle or not, the fastest way around the track is going to be right on the edge of the g-g diagram. You could achieve the same lap times by pushing it the same as now but with extra traction reserved for the shifts, but it wouldn't make the car any easier to drive unless you drove it at 90%; and where's the fun in that? laugh

I think the car would benefit from a more road-race oriented transmission setup for a road race atmosphere. Eliminate the cause of the impulse rather than accomodating it. In metaphorical terms, make the water stop surging.

#944676 - 09/07/12 03:32 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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I've driven a regular auto in manual mode around the track and the shifts lag about half second before the next gear actually engages. Older automatics are definitely not the way to go . I've read that the newer transmissions found in the CTS-V and 2007+ C6 are actually relatively good, I guess 6l80e?

The Dual Clutch Transmission and other race oriented transmission make a significant difference around the track. If your car has forced induction you can hold the boost through the shift and the shifts are extremely quick, no need to let off the throttle through the shift... Also from my experience when left in non-manual modes the transmission knows exactly what you want, e.g., you are accelerating quickly then slam on the brakes the trans will downshift, throttle blip as it downshifts gears, and maintain a high rpm in a optimal gear once you have let off the brake because it believes you are braking hard for a corner and need the power to exit the corner...

For daily driving it can be annoying since they lag/don't engage immediately when going from reverse to drive, in other words you can roll backwards or forwards a little and they are definitely a little jerky at low speeds.

On a side note: most tracks can be done in one or two gears unless your car is extremely quick. Being able to hold the gear and not letting the transmission downshift to lower gear under hard acceleration is more important than shifting quickly. I would see if the TCI paddle shifters allow you to hold gears...

And I posted about the tires since in my opinion your car has way too much power for those tires. Sticky tires definitely make a difference...

Last edited by jaywos; 09/07/12 03:58 PM.



1987 SS
#944681 - 09/07/12 04:56 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: jaywos]  
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MAP Offline
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Hi SSM,

About driving the car at 90%, that's the whole point here. And yes, I am arguing for reducing the impulsive force by softening the shift. But I'm also making the equally valid point that increasing the traction circle can be of value. I've taught university physics for seven years - please re-read my post.

Best,
MAP

#944697 - 09/07/12 08:00 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: MAP]  
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Saw your car runnin today at the Holley ls fest. Your pics are awesome but this car is even better in person. I was gonna talk to you but you were busy in the staging lanes. Good Luck if I don't get a chance to talk to you. I'll be here all weekend


88 Monte SS
#944745 - 09/08/12 03:51 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: RenoReno2]  
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Originally Posted By: RenoReno2
Saw your car runnin today at the Holley ls fest. Your pics are awesome but this car is even better in person. I was gonna talk to you but you were busy in the staging lanes. Good Luck if I don't get a chance to talk to you. I'll be here all weekend


Look me up for a ride on the autocross. If it stops raining.

#944748 - 09/08/12 05:09 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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I wish I had made plans to go. I'm only up in Louisville but going is out of the question now. frown If I knew of any cruises going on this weekend I'd invite you up.


84 Monte SS stolen September 2012. 077 DFE Jefferson County KY plate. $2500 reward. Vortec headed 350ci, th350, 3:73 limited slip cast aluminum cover, Autometer gauges, Pro-Stick, 2.5" fiberglass hood.



Matt
#944906 - 09/10/12 12:41 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: 84supersport]  
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Had a fantastic time at LS Fest. Returned home today, work tomorrow. Car was as great as the driver allowed. Times were very respectable on the auto cross and the speed stop.

Started in 1st gear and shift to 2nd prior to the first corner. Held 2nd the entire run. Every run I focused on throttle control and braking with my left foot. Caught myself several times riding the brake. Car stuck very well all weekend except for a couple bad pushes when I tried to get a little bit more at the wrong time. Hit 3 cones all weekend, two in the same run. I am currently running a 1/2* of camber and will increase this to
2-2 1/2*. Was told this will be a dramatic improvement in front grip, decrease tire roll, and not effect the street manners. Came from a very good source.

Should be in upcoming issues of Popular Hot Rodding an Chevy High Performance on the event coverage. Also had pictures taken for an upcoming book about G-Bodys by the owner of Bulldog Performance in Acworth, GA. Lots of positive comments on the cars autocross manners and overall build. I am very humbled by all the attention. Schwartz may even have sold chassis #3 for an 87 Grand Prix after a ride along.

Dan

#944971 - 09/10/12 02:22 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: MAP]  
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Originally Posted By: MAP
Hi SSM,

About driving the car at 90%, that's the whole point here. And yes, I am arguing for reducing the impulsive force by softening the shift. But I'm also making the equally valid point that increasing the traction circle can be of value. I've taught university physics for seven years - please re-read my post.

Best,
MAP


I recognize the first paragraph of your response, I agree, and I didn't challenge it.

I also understand the logic of increasing the traction circle to absorb the impulse of the shift, but I don't see it as an equally valid solution, overall. I don't doubt your qualifications MAP, but I just don't see someone driving the car at 90% around turns just to leave margin for their shift impulse. If you increased the size of the traction circle, all else remaining equal, the car is capable of faster lap times. The problem would still exist, you'd just have a faster car (possibly in a faster class) with the same problem. I don't feel that I am challenging the vehicle dynamics here.

#944981 - 09/10/12 03:59 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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Hi Howe. Sounds like you're enjoying the car, and enjoying learning about how to get the most out of it, which if I understood some of your early posts, was one of the main reasons for building it. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the magazine coverage. I's like to see the car myself sometime, but chances are that's not likely anytime soon.

#945035 - 09/11/12 01:41 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: clean8485]  
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Hi SSM: I think we're saying basically the same thing, although our different choices of words and perspectives are creating the opposite impression. I'm only advocating that benefit be sought anywhere and everywhere it's available. However, I've said nothing about the feasibility of gaining improvements in any given area. Softening a shift point can be orders of magnitude easier and cheaper to do, and especially when controlled electronically, than expanding a tire's traction circle, for example.

Hi Dan: regarding camber and such, there's a lot of detail on this topic over in the thread for which I posted a link not far back. If you're looking to get better front-end performance, this would align with my opinion that your car now has nominal understeer. Reducing front-end weight, as mentioned before, can be a significant help here, and I know you can do better with your car than the numbers you've posted in this thread. My 1978 Malibu was nearly 100lb lighter than your car, and had about 52-53/48-47 (ish) F/R weight distribution, and this was with a motor that probably weighed nearly 100lb more than yours, no less. (There was no denying, however, that the car was short on creature comforts: no AC nor heater, for example. In most parts of the country, this wouldn't be tolerable.)

Wider front tires/rims would help too, once again neatly sidestepping the issue of feasibility...

Best,
MAP

#948696 - 10/14/12 09:46 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: MAP]  
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With SEMA and OUSCI 2 weeks away I have been preparing the Monte for the road course. Worried about loosing oil pressure and transmission heat. So in goes an oil accumulator and an auxillary transmission cooler with fan.

The transmission cooler runs in conjunction with the radiator cooler and the Derale pan. Never had a heat issue, just wanted some insurance. Located this in front of the left front tire.

The accumulator hold 3 quarts additional oil and supplies the engine when oil pressure is lost. Then regenerates when the pressure is restored. Afraid this may happen in high g load situations. Located it behind the front bumper and it's plumbed to the oil filter housing.

The Optima battery is also being relocated to the trunk to offset some of the added nose weight.

Purchased a set of fuel rail covers. Plan to fill in the Corvette script and give them a custom touch. Not sure if Josh will have time to do this before SEMA. It's deer season and he's very busy at work.







#948699 - 10/14/12 10:09 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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2 weeks ago I attended and autocross school put on by the Iowa region SCCA. 4 different instructors did ride and drives for a total 6 runs with each instructor. I learned a lot.

Now the instructors weren't sure what to expect with the Monte as they prepared for their turn behind the wheel. The three that drove needed a lesson on the B&M mega shifter prior to the start. In conclusion, none believed going in that it would accelerate, and turn like it did. One of the three hated the manual brakes. He drives a Boxster and said it was just the opposite as his car. Quick to go and slow to stop vs wait to go and stop on a dime. As far as turning it compared to his Boxster. Under his suggestion we played with the brake bias and this made a huge difference in hard braking in corners.

Every one left with HUGE smiles. So did I.

#948703 - 10/14/12 10:45 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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Have you seen any sign of trans fluid coming out of the vent ont he trans yet?

I'm not sure what your trans has for a vent, but I push fluid out of the vent on my 200R4 after about 5 or 6 straight solo runs or a lap or two around a road course.

I'm planning on putting some additional tubing on my vent line, run it up to my engine compartment and putt a fuel filter or something on it to try to stop the leakage.

Car looks good, glad it's still running strong for you. I did a solo school in Sept as well, big fun.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#948711 - 10/15/12 12:23 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: SSLance]  
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Transmission is dry. Zero venting. It has been flawless since day one.

#948720 - 10/15/12 01:34 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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Sounds like you're having fun with the car. Glad to hear that both the car and your driving is getting better with practice. Do you know when the magazine article on the car will be out?

#948729 - 10/15/12 03:13 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: clean8485]  
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No idea on the Car Craft feature. They said they will contact me 4-6 weeks before its out to review the data sheet I had to fill put. It will be in the January Car Craft for the Real Street Eliminator coverage. Should also be in January's Popular Hot Rodding and Chevy High Performance in the LS Fest coverage.

#948794 - 10/16/12 12:00 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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OK, thanks. I'll keep an eye out for the articles.

#948803 - 10/16/12 12:44 AM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: clean8485]  
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Hi Howe,

"Quick to go and slow to stop vs wait to go and stop on a dime. As far as turning it compared to his Boxster." Not sure which description goes with which car? I'm guessing the first was yours?

Which way did you adjust brake bias (presumably by a proportioning valve) - more or less for the rear brakes?

Thanks,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 10/16/12 12:44 AM.
#948836 - 10/16/12 01:20 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: MAP]  
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Originally Posted By: MAP
Hi Howe,

"Quick to go and slow to stop vs wait to go and stop on a dime. As far as turning it compared to his Boxster." Not sure which description goes with which car? I'm guessing the first was yours?

Which way did you adjust brake bias (presumably by a proportioning valve) - more or less for the rear brakes?

Thanks,
MAP


Yes, my car was the first in the discription. The other drivers like the brakes, just took alot of foot pressure to slow it. And it is heavier than the imports they drive, Miata, RX8, Porsche.

I adjusted the prop. valve taking rear brake out. Stop great in a straight line, but when braking hard in a corner it had a tendency to snap loose. This help alot.

Map, If your schedule allows, come out to Vegas during SEMA and check it out. Nov 1 is the Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational in Purhamp, NV. 50 cars selected throughout the year and SEMA will compete, the Monte being one.

#948856 - 10/16/12 07:58 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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Hi Dan,

OK - no surprises at all about the descriptions and the direction of brake adjustment.

About LV, thanks for the invitation! LV is a 5-hr drive due north from here, and with my schedule, I just can't fit it in (as much as I would like to.) Much appreciated again. Weather in LV (desert climate) in early November is quite pleasant.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 10/16/12 09:51 PM.
#949060 - 10/18/12 10:50 PM Re: OneHotKnight with Schwartz Perf. G-body chasiss [Re: howehot]  
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My wife along with the marketing director at her work had some shirts made up for SEMA and OUSCI. They came out pretty sweet. The photo is from the Car Craft photo shoot.


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