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#1074146 - 06/20/22 05:31 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Another teaser...

[Linked Image]


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074147 - 06/20/22 08:31 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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So I guess I should back up a bit first before talking about the latest upgrades.

I've had some carnage lately that I haven't really shared. I broke some stuff at Good Guys which kept me from competing on day 2. We got that all sorted out in time for the last SCCA Event of the spring series when Bernie came out to race with me. The car worked great that whole weekend, but when we tore into it to redo the exhaust we found even more new carnage from just that one event. Thankfully both times we found the damage before things came completely apart which was a blessing.

Final synopsis is...I was asking some parts and pieces to do things they really weren't designed for and doing so in a somewhat brutal manner. Hopefully we have now helped those parts and pieces do their job more successfully which should also make the whole car perform better. I don't have any road miles on the car with the new fixes in place yet but will report back if it helped things once I do.

Couple pics to show what we were up against for the repair.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

My good friend Mike that was helping with the exhaust had some pretty good experience with adapting a 3 link into his 70 Chevelle and the extra work that was needed to make it last and we employed some of his strategies to my setup...once we had the damage corrected the best we could.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I still have to clean up some little things and get it all painted once again, but I grabbed onto all of it with my hands and shook it real hard then said "that ain't going nowhere" so I think we are good to go now. laugh I am confident our strategies will work to hold what's there in place now...time will tell what will break next to them though if anything. Trust that I'll be keeping a close eye on things for a while just to be sure.

Now for the fun stuff!!

I've had all the parts for a while now but finally got the time to get the car to Mike's so he could TIG weld up my new exhaust for me. I really REALLY wanted to have tailpipes that exit out from under the car but there just isn't a good way to do so. Going under the axle like we planned would have the pipes about 1.5" off the ground which wasn't an option. Going over the axle is impossible. The closest way we could come up to do so was some type of boom tube that turned a 180 out the muffler and came out the side in front of the rear tire...but even it would only be about 3" off the ground, still unacceptable. So turn downs it was... We did aim the tips so the exhaust will hit the ground right behind the rear tire...hopefully that is the best case scenario and also helps us pass sound at our first event in the fall. It'll be close I imagine.

Setup is all 3" stainless with Anti Reversion mufflers after the collectors, a hand built X pipe and Flowmaster Lamineer Flow straight thru mufflers all tig welded except for V bands at collectors and front of the mufflers. It sounds AMAZING...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I'm pretty stoked about it! The mufflers that ere on the car were on it when I bought it in 2007...to say it was do for an exhaust update is and understatement at the least. I always like to wait until I can do an upgrade right before diving in and I think we nailed this one.

Wish me luck passing the 93 db at WOT at 50' sound limit...I think I'll need it! If it won't pass I'm pretty sure if I put tips on it that point straight down it will, I just don't want to put up with those all the time if I don't have to. I'll try to get some exhaust note vids for you all later...right now I have to get caught up on everything else first.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074149 - 06/21/22 12:14 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I had concerns with that mounting point, I was planning to double plate it which might not be enough? Man Lance that's a tough one, I would consider some chassis work this winter. That support off the lower control arm bracket won't do too much, that's a fairly weak point that I add support too on all my G's.

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/21/22 12:21 AM.

Enjoy life, family first!
#1074151 - 06/21/22 02:08 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Uh...this IS my off season... I race all winter long. laugh

We discussed that as well and decided we can add support to that LCA mount pretty easily if needed. Plan is to beat on it some and inspect carefully.

While using a Porta power to push the crossmember back into shape we were shocked at just flimsy it is and easy to move around. Hopefully the bracing we put on the front AND back side of the crossmember will suffice to keep it from moving around any more.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074153 - 06/21/22 03:42 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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You may be at the point of needing a frame swap to a stronger aftermarket frame.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1074154 - 06/21/22 12:56 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Naw, I don't see that in my future at all.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074155 - 06/21/22 01:45 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Exhaust looks good and hopefully you squeeze by on the dB test.

#1074158 - 06/21/22 03:08 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I was hoping you figured out how to get tailpipes back on the car.

You consider the tears from long time abuse or is it partly due to the 3rd link connection to that crossmember?

Lakewood and Edel both sold a brace that ran from UCA bolt to the LCA bolt to help tie the two points together and strengthen that crossmember. Also drag race guys had a problem with tearing the LCA to frame location. The Edel brace and the LCA/frame gusseting kit. #0251, sold by TR products i installed many moons ago.
http://www.buickgn.com/hrframebraces.htm

When i installed the Spohn Pro Touring rear sway bar I noted how cheesy that crossmember was and made my own sway bar brackets which are gusseted into the that crossmember instead of just hanging off the lip of the crossmember. This to avoid any flex at that bracket.

The UMI rear tower brace also helps with flex there. Was going to weld a tube between the frame rails behind the rear but UMI brace is the easy reinforcement there.

When I saw the attachment of the new 3rd link to that crossmember I was thinking time would tell how it held up.
Bob

#1074160 - 06/21/22 06:48 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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The tears were brand new...just from the last event. Bernie and I were all over the back side of this before that event and didn't notice anything unusual. What happened I believe is the whole crossmember was always moving front to back and then we put that upper brace tied to the shock tower in and that made the top of the crossmember more solid. This in turn made the bottom half of the crossmember move front to back in a twisting motion and the more it twisted back and forth, the more it started to wear weakness into the crossmember...until it started to tear. Then it REALLY started to move.

We wanted to tie the bottom to the front lower control arm mount originally, but the mufflers were in the way. Them being out let us fix it proper and then we put the new mufflers out of the way of the forward brace.

I just test drove it and it is WORLDS different than it was before with how it puts power down. SO much better with the upper link now attached to something solid that doesn't move around like a wet noodle. I am super excited about it now, can't wait to feel it on course once again. If it makes sound that it is... laugh

https://youtu.be/eU9s9k5mMsU


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074161 - 06/21/22 07:28 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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More better pics of the repair.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074164 - 06/22/22 03:57 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I had some similar issues to Lance with my third link.

The third link we had welded to the central crossmember pulled out over some not so great michigan roads at WOT
[Linked Image]

The solution:
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
https://imgur.com/iv66m9C
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

It's a .120 wall 1 5/8 in DOM tube, the plates and gussets are 3/16 mild plate. The center tube is plated to the frame on both sides, and welded to the center crossmember in the areas that it touches.

Similarly to Lance, after fixing the crossmember the car feels MUCH better than before, much stiffer and more predictable on launch.

We dialed in the anti-squat to 69 percent (nice) with darn near neutral for roll axis angle -0.18 degrees

I guess the message here is, the G-body crossmember is not strong enough for a three link without significant re-enforcement,.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1074168 - 06/22/22 01:36 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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It was funny, Mike sent me pics of the tear in my crossmember one evening and right after that as I sat there contemplating my life's choices I stumbled across Travis's post on Facebook showing his very similar carnage.

At least we are both much happier with the results of our cures. I'm certain both of our methods will survive, question is...what will we break next? laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074172 - 06/22/22 10:32 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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When I made my fabrication comment I was thinking something along the lines of what Travis did. Stuff happens, I wouldn't sweat it, I would just put a sweet repair on it. I'll post a pic of my lower arm supports too.

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/22/22 11:51 PM.

Enjoy life, family first!
#1074174 - 06/23/22 01:06 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
It was funny, Mike sent me pics of the tear in my crossmember one evening and right after that as I sat there contemplating my life's choices I stumbled across Travis's post on Facebook showing his very similar carnage.

At least we are both much happier with the results of our cures. I'm certain both of our methods will survive, question is...what will we break next? laugh


I’m hoping to break into the 11’s next lol


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1074180 - 06/23/22 07:05 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Morning cruises in this car are so much fun...

https://youtu.be/kpcMcDt9UO8


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074182 - 06/24/22 03:08 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Maybe on a Sun morning before everyone gets out of bed. To many morons up to early during the week here. For me a morning cruise is 10:30 am to 11:00, not an early riser these days.
Although Sat and Sun will be out the door early. Sat is 6 am to drive the 86 to the Carlisle GM Nationals, maybe the 10th time for that car, and me. Sun is also out the door early, USGA Senior Open is up the road from here this year. My son-in-law and I will watch the Sun finish from the "19th Hole", Father's Day present from my daughter. So two up early days in a row.

Good to see the car is back and putting miles on it.
Seeing the frame stressing both your's and Travis's endured and the outcomes was something not unexpected. I've spent a lot of time visually looking at my chassis over the years and can see why things could cause stress failures. The extensive overloading of the original design, the frame to body bond, oversprung, and a dozen other causes of of stress failures.

But I feel that's the price you pay if you want to play. The only way to find the limits to to get to the limit. Then you make an effort to fix it, permanently. Which often can become two permanently-es.

So thanks for the frame cracks. Next time under the car will need to do looking in those areas.

Having spent a lot time trying to make a triangulated 4 link rear suspension better the three link does appear for the most part to be better for what my car's intent, purpose, build, is focused on. Over the many years of suspension upgrades for a G-body or even the A-Body very little actually changed to deviate from the basic 4 link design, lots of parts but still just a lowered 4 link with expensive parts that are not stock. Yes there is the GNX setup, and the truck arm, neither a real fix for me.

The three link in lance's car now is the best option available for most G's but it has compromises because of packaging. The steel 9" rear's housing allowed arm location off center to be easier to locate. A cast iron Spicer center section less option.
The short distance between the rear and the frame crossmember, UCA length, is dictated by the rear seat placement and is always the confinement to the UCA frame mounting point.

I feel the short UCA is the hurdle to over come to make the three link fit, work in a G. The GNX arm is like 3', yes it's a ladder bar, but. The truck arm was used in NASCAR for decades in a G-body, on road course and even on them couple left hand turn only tracks. Truck arms are over 4' if i remember the ones on my 1969 C10 fleetside. Both use a panhard bar to keep the rear centered like a 3 link

The other packaging issue is tailpipes. I was hoping you found how to get that done. I like the side exhaust, GN style as some will call it. Definitely a little louder when the windows are down and going through an underpass, but my choice for exhaust music. The stock SS dumping at the rear of the car will quiet that down a lot. But turn downs under the car isn't an option for me, never have, never will. Windows up, A/C cranking and exhaust noise disappears with side or even more so the rear exit pipes, but not with turndowns. Some cars you can even feel the vibes in your, seat.

Several times laying under the rear of the car looking to see how a Fayes or particularly stealing a little of that concept/design and building my own Watts and integrating it onto the 8 1/2" rear. You don't need to be to clever to attach the Watts to an 8 1/2". The packaging problem is the same as the 3 link, tailpipes.
Bob

#1074183 - 06/24/22 04:13 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I'm currently conjuring up a way to put a frame mounted rear sway bar up above the axle. This along with limit straps to keep the rear axle from drooping so far will give me the room I need to run tailpipes under the axle and then out the back bumper in stock locations. That is the vision for the near future anyway.

It needs tailpipes, at times the drone inside is unbearable. What is strange though is at other times the sound goes almost completely away. 1800 RPM at cruise it's almost dead quiet inside. The one portion of the video shows that... Right off idle under load though it vibrates the whole inside of the cabin...

Have fun at Carlisle Bob!


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074184 - 06/24/22 04:31 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I'm thinking about raising the trunk floor in a couple spots to give the necessary room to go up and over. The problem is behind the axle. I don't have a spare tire well anymore, so I could run two pipes over the axle on the passenger side and split them off there. Alternatively, could center up the fuel tank like Dan Howe did and take one over each side. I understand Lance doesn't want to cut his car up though. Have you seen Doug's (sicmonte) exhaust? It only adds maybe an inch below the frame rail.

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/67083-Project-SicMonte/page8 (your replies per page settings might throw the page number off, but it's in this thread)

Trying to figure out a bolt-in solution for this flimsy crossmember is going to be a challenge, but a necessary one. Trying to do it without making the whole setup too much heavier is going to be an even bigger one.

Last edited by SickSpeedMonte; 06/24/22 04:36 PM.
#1074191 - 06/25/22 02:36 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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The 86 is sitting out front, fueled up, ready to roll at 6 am. Did i mention i hate getting up that early. I'll tell Ramey you will see him very soon. Might even drive the car over to UMI so he can have a look at the bar setup. That trip is about 500' if we're park as usual.

As we know the confines of the 3rd link location and dealing with that frame crossmember is the big problem. There are several pics out there of that section of the frame sans any body, top views.I need to pull some of those up and look at that crossmember again For me that would give me the visual. I think Bernie still has a bare frame he's built off of.

When i did the 1/2" fuel lines you become very aware of how that frame crossmember and the floor pan under the seat live in the same space. So supporting that center section of the crossmember on the front side centered can't happen without cutting the floor pan.

Maybe i missed something on Dan's Schwartz chassis, the rear suspension is a triangulated 4 link, coilovers and a three piece sway bar. I know where all those parts tie into the frame and rear makes a world of difference in the end product but it's still a 4 link. Dan's car does have bigger rear tires, 315's help a lot.

I was at Precision Chassis a few months ago and Jimmy was putting a dual 3" oval stainless exhaust on a 2nd Gen road race F-body, also building the stainless headers, so engine back system. Just the material cost was insane. That car had a Watts and a whole lot of not stock anymore rear suspension. To turn the 3" oval pipe straight up in front of the axle so he could then get over the watts he fabricated extremely tight oval 90s by TIGing 6 or 8 section of angle cut OVAL pipe, all the while they were purged when built. WAY expensive, time consuming, just frustrating thinking about how much work that system entailed. Sure was pretty what saw.
So maybe an exhaust can be done, if you have the need to do it.
Bob

#1074193 - 06/25/22 11:52 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Dan centered the fuel tank by adding supports and moving it towards the passenger side. I guess he had to do it for tire and exhaust clearance due to the wider tires. I'm saying I/we could make use of the same strategy to run the pipes over the PHB crossmember by modifying the trunk pan. You couldn't do that on the driver's side with the tank in the stock location.

I know it's not oval (you could make it oval) but you can buy die-formed sheet metal donuts for really tight bends.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/p...lIZOQaH1mOBT0mHuFeAdTZSslVRoC40oQAvD_BwE

#1074199 - 06/26/22 02:59 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I've bought numerous times lately from Pegasus. Found them a couple years ago when I needed something odd for my car. They cater to a different type of race parts buyer. I guess a 3" donut could be be cut up to make a tight as in greatly reduced radius.
I've seen Doug's car at one of UMI events if i remember, will have to listen to the exhaust note if i see it again.

Just today put 200 miles on my car, 72 on cruise up and back Pa turnpike, GM National in Carlisle. Yep 4.11s, T56 with .64 6th, 2300 rpm with original cruise control, well the stalk was replaced. Three hours listening to a little music and tailpipes exits behind the rear tire and had my fill of that exhaust music. Can't imagine want dumps sound like.

I never saw any pics of Dan's son's El Camino build. Would be interesting see how much easier it is to get over the rear and panhard or Watts with a flat bed sitting on the frame above it.

Several hour over the years were spent looking at the Fayes and adapting the concept onto my 8 1/2". Thinking how can this be made way simpler, way less materiel, more that strong enough, be adjustable, and 100% worth the time to make and install one on an 8 1/2", AND be able to use my existing ATR 2 1/2" mandrel bent stainless pipes. AND is that what will for the first time have the rear suspension playing nicely with the front suspension.

As with any suspension mods it's always about length, sizes, arcs, a bunch of parts moving to make things better, not worse.
Oh boy.
Bob

#1074214 - 06/27/22 06:58 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss


Several hour over the years were spent looking at the Fayes and adapting the concept onto my 8 1/2". Thinking how can this be made way simpler, way less materiel, more that strong enough, be adjustable, and 100% worth the time to make and install one on an 8 1/2", AND be able to use my existing ATR 2 1/2" mandrel bent stainless pipes. AND is that what will for the first time have the rear suspension playing nicely with the front suspension.


Bob. Give this a read.

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/Busting-the-Myth-of-the-Watts-Link.aspx

The real fast Camaro/Mustang Challenge guys don't run Watts links, they run Panhard rods. If you do the math, the side/side movement of a panhard rod is negligible with so little suspension travel on pro-touring/race cars.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
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