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#1067151 - 07/04/20 04:56 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Oh, and now my injectors vibrate my dash instead of my floor...

HaHaHahahahahahahahahahahaha, I had to laugh, you really have to love the car hobby.
Bob

HAPPY MOTORING

#1067153 - 07/04/20 01:28 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Glad I could give you a bit of joy in these dark times Bob... laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067155 - 07/04/20 05:51 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Last night my tuner was scratching his head. "That fuel spike it's calling for will result in a 169% VE...it doesn't make sense. It's something like 225l/hr at that point... It's not making 450hp at 4250rpm...it just isn't. 🤷‍♂️"

I told him "it made 410 hp at 4250 with dual plane and q-jet, 420 at 4300. Peak torque was at 4100, 524 ft lb" and I showed him the dyno chart.

[Linked Image]

He replied "I see that...it makes sense...peak VE occurs at peak torque..."

He is using Volumetric Efficiency tables to create the fuel map and this is what it would look like if created from the recent learn table.

[Linked Image]

He wanted to trim the top of the peak down to smooth it out but I asked him to raise up all of the values around the peak and see if it likes it or not. This engine has always been a bit "peaky" in that area, kind of like a two stroke dirt bike hitting the power band. My hope is to level that out just a bit without killing any power overall.

This is pretty much what is AWESOME about tuning with EFI! Hopefully will get an updated tune from his soon and take it out for a spin.

Nut and bolt went well, both radiator hose clamps were a bit loose and leaking just a tad. Other than that it's all good.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067160 - 07/05/20 12:23 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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You better be careful Lance! The two stroke power your talking about got your engine last time running lean with no management system to pull timing out when it detonated. I would highly recommend focusing on air fuel ratios and timing while looking for detonation. If it detonates you don't necessarily need to pull timing but instead can throw a bit more fuel at it for more power. There are guys running in the 11's A/F ratio with max timing combating detonation with good advancement. I would take the car for chassis dyno sessions and have it tuned professionally live.


Enjoy life, family first!
#1067171 - 07/05/20 02:52 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Yeah, I backed the timing off again today. Yesterday afternoon I took it out in the heat of the day and cruised it around with the windows up and AC cranked and I heard some detonation under hard throttle. I put it back in "safe" mode this morning and will leave it there.

It still pulls super hard, just not quite as snappy as before. I made a couple 2 gear pulls while logging data this morning in the cool air and it is still spiking lean on hard tip in, then getting back in the 12s and taking off. Right after the lean spike is where the learn table is asking for a bunch more fuel so next step is to leave the fuel table where it is and work on the enrichment tables for TPS ROC.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067180 - 07/06/20 12:36 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: 1 Slow SS]  
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Originally Posted by 1 Slow SS
You better be careful Lance! The two stroke power your talking about got your engine last time running lean with no management system to pull timing out when it detonated. I would highly recommend focusing on air fuel ratios and timing while looking for detonation. If it detonates you don't necessarily need to pull timing but instead can throw a bit more fuel at it for more power. There are guys running in the 11's A/F ratio with max timing combating detonation with good advancement. I would take the car for chassis dyno sessions and have it tuned professionally live.




x2 Get it on a chassis dyno and get it tuned professionally. Hub dynos or eddy current dynos are better because they can do steady state loading and check for part throttle detonation at varying load cases, great for part throttle tip-in with the AC on.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1067188 - 07/07/20 04:28 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Glad that thing is back on the road again, all be it the blacktop is probable 130 degrees there.
Don't know nuttin about laptop tuning so i can't say much about that. Do have a very good understanding of how it all interacts and how easy it is to play with all those parts of the tune. Not much different than old school, just don't need any tools anymore.

My thinking about the new engine was it damn hot out there right now, the engine internals are all fresh, need some time to learn to live together, heat is an enemy. i would think running things on the rich side, timing correct, and getting 500 miles on the rings without overheating and detonation would be my goal right now. Winter isn't far off and cooler temps, track time hopefully starts again.

Dyno time would be good. But good dyno time could be hard to find. It would need a place to screw their A/F meter into. You need the A/F sensor to run your car. A good dyno would like to have a sensor on each side. A/F ratios is what you are playing with, that is what the dyno tunes with, along with timing. Without something to monitor and control knock you just need to be careful. It's one of the things new engine electronics does best, prevent knock.
Bob

#1067191 - 07/07/20 02:42 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Dyno time would be good. But good dyno time could be hard to find. It would need a place to screw their A/F meter into. You need the A/F sensor to run your car. A good dyno would like to have a sensor on each side. A/F ratios is what you are playing with, that is what the dyno tunes with, along with timing. Without something to monitor and control knock you just need to be careful. It's one of the things new engine electronics does best, prevent knock.
Bob


On a carb car very true, on an EFI car, you can just log the pulls using the wideband O2's in the car and compare them to the dyno pull. The logs from the ECU are your reference points for tuning, and the dyno just provides load and tells you if what you're doing is working or not.

I would say a good dyno is an eddy current or hub style dyno that can do dynamic loading. Inertia dynos like a dynojet are great for finding out power, A-B tests for trying out different tunes and how they effect max power at WOT. an eddy current dyno is what you want for a street car/road race car. You can control the load, you can work out light part throttle cruising, throttle tip in, with enough dyno time and a good tuner you can tune a car where there are no dead spots, no hesitation and it still makes peak power. You can also control ramp rate, like on an engine dyno so you can really stress test a motor in vehicle, with all the accessories, full exhaust, driveline etc. The other awesome thing about hub dynos is that if the throttle sticks, the dyno can actually pull the motor down and prevent over revving and engine damage, AND you never have to worry about a tire popping and taking out a quarter panel or a strap breaking and sending your car into a toolbox. biggest downside is that setup on a hub dyno kind of sucks.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1067192 - 07/07/20 02:48 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I have about 60 miles on it now, basically in circles around my hood... Tuning is going well, we are making strides for sure and I'm being careful on it.

I started research on adding knock sensors and it is not that difficult it seems. Trickiest part will be tuning the sensors once installed. You use a stock GM one wire sensor in the drain port and pin it to a slated pin in the ECU connector...then start programming.

For now we have backed the timing off a bunch, back down to what the engine analyzer calls for at WOT. Really didn't change the performance that much, just a little slower in the lower RPMs is all. We thought it might change the fuel map as well but really didn't that much. Still fine tuning on a few spots with fuel while reducing compensation learn values.

On other notes, it's got a freaking coolant leak...pisses a puddle every time I park it. Looks to be lower rad hose/water pump connection or water pump weep hole itself. Haven't had time to really chase that yet.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067197 - 07/07/20 04:55 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
On other notes, it's got a freaking coolant leak...pisses a puddle every time I park it. Looks to be lower rad hose/water pump connection or water pump weep hole itself. Haven't had time to really chase that yet.


It's always something, but hey, as far a new rebuilds go, if that's the worst thing that happens you're doing OK.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1067198 - 07/07/20 05:10 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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That's sounds like small stuff Lance. When you add the knock sensor you find it's a worthy addition even with the time of the calibration process.


Enjoy life, family first!
#1067206 - 07/08/20 01:16 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Found the coolant leak I think. The rubber cap on the stub near radiator cap was loose.

Tuning continues...found another couple small things to try tomorrow.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067270 - 07/13/20 03:25 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Wondering if autox events are opening up for you yet. Saw Phoenix area has nothing scheduled until the Fall.

Saw a couple videos of the Metrocenter demise, after watching the video of the car show there in June. Could be a nice parking lot for more than parking cars.

Here Susquehanna Region has only a few days scheduled in mid July. Not mentally ready to make the long drive, EARLY in the morning, for an event next weekend or the following weekend, and that's all they have scheduled for this year so far. Had Pacman in my right leg Thurs, recovery time is longer when you get older, so wouldn't have much car prep time. But, a friend just bought a new 18' open trailer, has a nice 3/4 ton hauler and I'd bet if I paid all the expenses he'd go along for the ride. Hmmmm. And those A6's, remember the A6s, that have been sitting for way to long, could be used up if I made the last Sat or Sun event in Harrisburg.
Put the tires on the car, load on trailer and throw a spare in the back of the truck. Easy peasy.
Bob

#1067275 - 07/13/20 03:52 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Nothing scheduled here anytime soon. It's uber hot and virus is rampant so nobody is doing anything. Funny you mention Metro Center's parking lot as they used to hold events there and it was brought up on the local forums once again recently. They think the asphalt is too far gone but someone is going to run by and look at it. Location to race is not an issue though, weather and regulations are our enemy right now.

I say bolt the A6s on and go get em...what's the worst that can happen? laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067296 - 07/14/20 02:49 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Nothing scheduled here anytime soon. It's uber hot and virus is rampant so nobody is doing anything. Funny you mention Metro Center's parking lot as they used to hold events there and it was brought up on the local forums once again recently. They think the asphalt is too far gone but someone is going to run by and look at it. Location to race is not an issue though, weather and regulations are our enemy right now.

I say bolt the A6s on and go get em...what's the worst that can happen? laugh






The Detroit and the NW Ohio regions are open for business. Masks are required for drivers meetings and if you're in the timing van. They found a way to do online waivers and checkin. Other than that keep your distance, make your runs and have fun.

Now I just need to get this rear end in the car... I'm targeting completion for at least the last 3 events of the season, 1 in Sept, 2 in October.


86 SS 6.0L LQ4, TBSS intake, Summit Stage 3 NA Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Microsquirt ECU, FABbot AR5 5-speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, QA1 Lvl 3 Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces.
#1067354 - 07/19/20 03:23 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Took a little spin around the block this morning

https://youtu.be/s7Xiuz4PJu4


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1067355 - 07/20/20 04:46 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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It don't sound too bad Lance, in today's standards I don't think any of us need to worry about having a fast car with our low HP goals. I would give up racing and make it a clean street car again seeing the engine is new while dumping all the race stuff other than suspension and wheels. But I don't see that happening... You know your the Lance Armstrong of the autocross world... laugh .


Enjoy life, family first!
#1067363 - 07/20/20 05:06 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Thanks, I'm pretty pleased with it.

What I am not pleased with is the noise my third member is making on deceleration. My GoPro mic is inside my rear bumper and really picks it up if you know what to listen for.

I've been too scared to jack the rear up and see what's loose...just been sending it on my blasts around the block. I'm assuming I've hurt a pinion bearing as there are no weird vibrations or other oddities, only symptom is chattering noise on decel.

At this point I don't really care. This year's racing season is pretty much a write off. I've moved the car back to the house garage and the Jeep is on the lift now. Time to concentrate on other toys for a while. The Monte is driveable again so I can enjoy it a bit as needed for therapy and that's all that matters right now.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
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