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#1061561 - 04/17/19 05:25 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: AkronAero]  
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Originally Posted by AkronAero
Lance - what kind of vacuum are you getting? I understand the FI kits need 7-10 inches minimum for control. I have toyed with the idea of switching but with a big cam need to look at that first. Just digging the car out from under the winter blankets...
Love your thoughtful assessment and pics/links.
Thanks in advance,
Gordon



Thanks Gordon, I don't have a huge cam in this car, it pulls 18" of vacuum at idle so hopefully the self learn tuning will go smooth.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061562 - 04/17/19 05:29 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Is it an option with the FI to have the ignition be a standalone or does it need to be interfaced with the FI?

You may be alright with the taller intake and using the cowl hood, Just need to figure out how to get fresh air to it. Not sure if you opened up the 90 some holes in the cowl hood for more inlet air. It's just another little problem we encounter with modified cars.


Yeah, it can be set to go either way...ECU controlling the timing or not. What is funny is the way the ECU controls the timing is exactly the same as the way my MSD box controls it. The distributor is locked and set at like 50 degrees BTC and the ECU retards it from there to exactly where it wants it to fire.

The difference is the EFI ECU is much better at finite changes on the fly than the graph I put into the MSD box which is fixed until I change it.

I have my air cleaner spacer set to put the foam rubber ring right against the hood when closed, this means I'll most likely have to cut an inch off the spacer, at a 3 degree angle if I want it to sit against the hood once again.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061578 - 04/19/19 02:48 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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If you haven't torn the top of the engine apart yet shoot a couple pics. One with the air cleaner on, one with it off. Do the same for the new setup.

Hey, while looking for issues on the top side of my engine decided to see if anything was in the Mighty Mouse catch can. Last time I checked for liquids was early Fall, there was only a few drops in it. Put maybe 500 miles on the car since, it was Winter here. Got 1 oz of brown water and a 1/4 oz of the oil grunge last night. That surprised me, so the can does do something. Next time I pull the carb it will be interesting to see what the runners look like. The crap gas we run these days will color the intake plenum and runners. The PVC circuit make it a little oily.

I was wondering if you know anyone who has run one of these?
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/powersurge.html
There are several other similar tanks out there now. The 86 has their fuel pump, filter and fuel tank pickup installed, all good products. There's a pair of pretty bright boys over at Robbmc.

IF I was ever to go FI the battery would go in the truck and that sump would replace it.

Oh, before the new tank gets put together I'd be interested in know what sump and baffles that tank has.
Bob

#1061581 - 04/19/19 01:14 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I looked real hard at the Fitech G surge tank which is the same basic idea, even found a gently used one at the right price. They have heat issues unless you mod them to circulate the fuel back to the tank with the manual fuel pump. Would have taken a bunch more plumbing and unnecessary work just to install a potential bomb under the hood...so I passed.

Good idea for most MuscleCar EFI conversions but not so good for my application.

I'll try to remember to tank pics and post them as I go along, I'm usually not very good at that though. wink


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061613 - 04/20/19 11:53 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I bet you will like it. You will have more overall drivability and maybe pick up a few HP in the midrange.


[Linked Image]
New BTR Stage 4 cam makes 449 HP and 380 TQ TQ at the wheels. 6.0 LY6 VVT and 4L85E!blackgoldaero http://www.cardomain.com/ride/671193
#1061629 - 04/22/19 06:10 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Crappy cell phone video...but watch the tail pipes as Keith takes off and then when he shifts to second near first cone.

https://youtu.be/Mng4JTLxxVo


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061713 - 05/02/19 06:10 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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So I have 4 coolant temp sensors currently wired up on my engine...and I can only think of 3 that I need. Anyone have any idea why I ended up with 4? laugh

I'm game planning on where to put the new coolant temp sensor for the EFI (which will let me delete any that are electric fan related) but I'm not ready to disassemble the car just yet.

First is in Passenger side head, pretty sure it was the last one I added and is the cooler of my fan switch sensors.

[Linked Image]

Second is in the Driver side head, pretty sure it is for my Dakota Digital Dash

[Linked Image]

These two are in my Thermostat housing, pretty sure one of them is the second switch for the high speed fans, the other, have no clue...

[Linked Image]

What the hell would I need a 4th one for? It sucks to get old!!


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061714 - 05/02/19 06:12 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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And BTW, see anything else suspect in this picture?

[Linked Image]

There is an internet prize ready for the first one to notice the issue... wink


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061715 - 05/02/19 07:32 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I would guess the vacuum plug that is laying on the intake might indicate you have a vacuum leak?

I hope I won that new LS7...πŸ˜›


Enjoy life, family first!
#1061716 - 05/02/19 08:56 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: 1 Slow SS]  
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Originally Posted by 1 Slow SS
I would guess the vacuum plug that is laying on the intake might indicate you have a vacuum leak?

I hope I won that new LS7...πŸ˜›



When I brushed by the plug accidentally, it broke in half and fell off. How it could NOT be a vacuum leak makes me wonder. The car didn't really present with vacuum leak type symptoms though.

You win a preview pic of of the new parts to your inbox. laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061718 - 05/03/19 01:44 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Wow that is a nice set up! Not the prize I was looking for but it’s nice. πŸ˜› I really like that intake!


Enjoy life, family first!
#1061719 - 05/03/19 02:04 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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If that vac plug was capping off a ported vac source, at idle it wouldn't effect anything, so you wouldn't notice a leak there. With ported vac there is only vac at that port when the throttle plates open past the port's hole in the venturi. Stick a vac gauge on the port at idle, no vac, ported. Chances are that port was used for the EVAP purge valve. If you had a wideband O2 gauge you may have seen a leaning at cruise, but at WOT that little leak did nothing to effect the perf.

Four temp sensors, sound like you need some pipe plugs. Lets see, temp sender for temp gauge in the dash located in the L cyl head, possible temp sender for the electric fans in the thermostat housing, old temp sender for the CCC still in the thermostat housing, the original temp switch for the old 305 EFE (it was a temperature vac switch) was located in the intake manifold, have no idea why there is a temp sensor in the R head.

No pics for the needy?
Bob

#1061724 - 05/03/19 04:29 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Here ya go Bob ... laugh

[Linked Image]


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061725 - 05/03/19 04:29 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Looking Good Lance, your going to love the efi! Once you get it dialed in you will wish you had it sooner, I know thats how I felt.


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1061726 - 05/03/19 04:31 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: 1 Slow SS]  
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Originally Posted by 1 Slow SS
Wow that is a nice set up! Not the prize I was looking for but it’s nice. πŸ˜› I really like that intake!



Thanks!! I'm hoping the intake moves my power band up in the RPM range a bit...and the EFI keeps the throttle response down low that the dual plane gives me now.

Wanna come out and help me install it all? Weather is beautiful out here right now... 😎


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061728 - 05/03/19 04:35 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I would love to, I like working on this stuff as much or more then driving them, I just built another car over the winter lol.

I suspect any torque loss down low from that intake will be made up with the efi, and it should really pull up stairs on those straight aways!


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1061738 - 05/04/19 04:06 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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I see you changed the tank choice. Which pump is that ?

Hopefully the install goes well. Nice lift by the way, makes living under a car a lot easier.
Bob

#1061741 - 05/04/19 01:41 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Holley forced my hand by extending the ship date to the end of May on their MuscleCar tank so we are going to build our own G body Restomod tank since nobody else will.

Starting with a carb style OEM tank which we will cut the top open and build a recess plate to set the 5th gen Camaro fuel module in. While it's open we'll build a couple Z bar straps in each corner to hold down the corner pickups to keep the pump full. We used the Vaporworx kit to adapt a mechanical regulator to the pump which will feed 58 PSI to the fuel rail in a returnless style which will eliminate a bunch of plumbing

Still to be determined is how we vent the tank. We may use the stock pickup for vent and level sender if we can work around it or we'll have to weld a bung in to connect the vent line and use the sender in the fuel module.

As I've said all along, this is by far the hardest part of this swap but hopefully my fab guy is up to the task.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061742 - 05/04/19 06:10 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Have I ever mentioned before how much I hate headers on a street car?

[Linked Image]

I'm a bit out of practice, haven't had them off in 3 1/2 years and still took just two hours to get this far.

I was actually surprised at the condition of the header gaskets. These headers were not designed to use with raised port heads so we had to improvise to get them to work. I had some issues initially getting a gasket to seal up and work and this last set did pretty good. Only areas with signs of leakage were on # 6 and # 8 both due to bolts coming loose.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I bought a different set of gaskets this go around but now thinking I may go back with this part # again when it goes back together.

I'm not sure how this car was even running...by the look of the plugs...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

3.5 years and about 5,000 very hard track miles on those plugs...the last part of that running very rich. It'll get a fresh set and fresh oil before it fires back up once again.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061743 - 05/05/19 04:07 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Wow, the tank/pickup became the project. Cutting up a tank, making a 5th Gen pump fit, baffles, cool.
Something else to think about is doing the filler tube vent which fixes the PITA of fueling the car. Should have done that when my car got a new tank.

That Delco pump setup was used across the board for the 5th Gens? Looks like 40 gallons at 57 should be enough for the FI. The outlet is 3/8 plastic quickconnect, I'm sure someone sells a connector for it. The gauge sender is 250 ohm unlike a 90 ohm stock sender.
Try to avoid the double hose clamp means of preventing leaks. I just don't trust hose and clamps at high pressures.

I'm guessing that Vaporworx reg is located next to the tank and isn't very big.

Does the Terminator control the pump, as in turning it off if no oil pressure?

You'e deleting the stock EVAP system on the car? The 5th Gen pickup would have been used with an electronic EVAP but still has a tank vent port. You could try one of those rollover vents, some have used here. Not sure how much they stink up a closed garage when the car sits. They also need to be mount up pretty high to prevent slosh in the connecting hose. As far as a vented gas cap that fits the G tank I know of no one selling one.
It's hard to beat the EVAP system on an 86 SS, it's unique to that year. Just needs a source of manifold vac and ported vac, an evap valve, simple canister.

Headers: good luck. Any leak at the flange can drive an O2 nuts.
Bob

#1061744 - 05/05/19 01:56 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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So, Holley forced my hand by back ordering the band-aid tank setup for another month. As soon as that happened I started down this path (which I should have been on from the beginning). Tell me more about the filler tube vent fix. My car is easy to fill now with the OEM tank, what is different about the new Spectra tanks that I need to fix?

The pump is AC Delco part #MU1959. Vaporworx sent an AN-6 adapter for the quick connect with their kit. If I use the module fuel sender I can adjust my Dakota Digital fuel gauge for the empty and full marks, but from what I understand it would move very slow for the top half of the tank and very fast for the bottom half...like 5 gallons or less left at half tank mark. I can either deal with this or retain the stock fuel level sender which I'm leaning toward.

The Vaporworx regulator is very small and goes between the pump and the top hat inside the module itself. The Terminator controls the pump but is not related to oil pressure.

I will still run the charcoal canister with the carb side hooked to a timed vac port on the throttle body like it is now. If I retain the stock pickup I'll use the stock vent line to the tank side of the canister just like it is now. Somehow I'll just block off the feed and return lines on it (maybe loop a line between them or find a safe way to clamp them off. If I can't retain the stock pickup for some reason I'll weld a bung in the tank as high as I can get it and plumb it to the stock vent line to the charcoal canister.

I think I'll be alright on the headers, the last time stayed sealed up good until the bolts backed out and I didn't catch it before it blew the gasket out. Given the sensitive nature I'll have now with the O2, I may give in and put the stage 8 bolts a try.

Today I'll pull all of the old ignition parts and harnesses out of the car. I found a brand new Holley #8366 distributor and everything I need to connect it to the Terminator at a good price so the Pro Billet 85551 is coming out. Still haven't decided if I'll run the 6AL-2 or not, it's not needed with the #8366 and causes a fair amount of interference which I'd rather not have but does clean the spark up so...we'll see. It'll come down to available real estate which frankly is pretty limited.

On a side note, spent a couple hours on Friday showing the car to a fellow board member that we've all known for a long time digitally. Was nice to finally meet MAP in person, watching his mind work trying to dissect the things we've done with this car and how they work was interesting. I was probably just as fascinated watching how his mind works as he was feeling the difference in how my shocks reacted to force as I adjusted the knobs on them. I have shown the car and given rides to a lot of people over the years but he's the first person that ever asked if he could push down on the fender of the car or take the steering wheel for a bit to see how it reacts to inputs while driving down the road. I think he experienced some new things to think about while laying in bed at night trying to sleep laugh Hope he enjoyed the time as much as I did. Next time I'm taking him for a ride on course so he can really feel what it's like when driven in anger.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061746 - 05/05/19 03:32 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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Mark, MAP, has been around for a long time, think he even goes back in time to the old MonteList days. The 8 1/2" Truetrac, axles and bearings in my rear all came from him when he parted out his project car. When you see him again tell him Hi and thanks for me.
He will appreciate the work you've done on your car. And will have a host of questions and logic to bench race about.

As far as the venting while filling most cars today do it. My Astro, the wife's 02 all have a vent from the top of the tank to just below the gas cap. I have a particular Sunoco gas pump where I fuel the 86, it has a slight downhill grade so the rear of the car sits a little higher, reduces the burp back I get from a level area refilling. The fueling located behind the license plate makes for a clean quarterpanel but a PITA to fill up to a full tank.
Here's a link about that mod.
https://turbobuick.com/threads/1987-buick-gn-new-spectra-fuel-tank-gm307c-are-they-good.436925/

Because we have a non-vented gas cap there is no threat of fuel leaking from the cap

Also all fuel tanks today have anti-siphon baffles and a reduced filler hose hole to prevent leaded gas being used and someone stealing the gas from the tank. These inhibit fueling the tank. A vent just below the restrictor's hole in the neck and back to the very top of the tank would make fuel easier. MANY people have complained about filling a G tank to full, how many times has it burped all over the bumper, for me after 27 years of owning the car, way to many times. Should have done that mod when the new tank was virgin, no fuel in it yet.

One disadvantage of a single pipe fuel system is heat soak in the feed line. With an electric pump at 57 psi fuel percolation shouldn't be a problem. But the fuel will get hot as it soaks up the heat from the headers and underhood high temps, especially in the sunny S.W. Adding a metered fuel return solved my vapor lock at the track problem when the Summer heat turned on.

Just plug the 1/4" return stock return line at both ends and leave it in the car for possible future use if heat becomes a problem.
Bob

#1061747 - 05/05/19 05:15 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Mystery solved...

[Linked Image]

Sometimes I amaze myself at the things I do. If one temp switch is good, two must be better right? laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1061755 - 05/06/19 04:08 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Have I ever mentioned before how much I hate headers on a street car?

[Linked Image]





3.5 years and about 5,000 very hard track miles on those plugs...the last part of that running very rich. It'll get a fresh set and fresh oil before it fires back up once again.


Lance, what intermediate/down pipes are those? I'm looking at putting the same headers on my car.

Last edited by SSScottSS; 05/06/19 04:09 PM.

[Linked Image]
#1061757 - 05/06/19 04:49 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSScottSS]  
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I
Originally Posted by SSScottSS

Lance, what intermediate/down pipes are those? I'm looking at putting the same headers on my car.


I had a muffler shop custom make them to go to the X pipe I added under the driveshaft. I believe these headers are a great choice for our cars...if you HAVE to have headers on them that is. laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
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