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#1045833 - 11/28/16 05:28 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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ramey36 Offline
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Philipsburg, PA
We have a Watts Link designed and waiting for fabrication time.

Unfortunately we also have the same struggle mentioned above where we need something to happen up top so the system can move properly. The classic solution is to use rubber in the bushings and keep ones fingers crossed. Our job is to come up with a better solution than that...

At UMI our customer base is the bolt-in crowd. We need to decide if we want to delve into the fabrication world or not.

ramey

#1045835 - 11/28/16 05:54 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted By: SSLance
It's not trunk area, it's the back of the back seat that is in the way. Best I can tell a relocated upper 3rd link would come into the backseat right about the lower back area if you were sitting in the seat. If it was as long as the lower links like I think it needs to be, the chassis side end of it would end up in your lap if you sat in passenger side rear seat area.



I was thinking on a four link set up. In that case it would be the trunk....Correct??


Enjoy life, family first!
#1045836 - 11/28/16 06:00 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Onebadbowtie86 Offline
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would it be better to go to a 3 link setup then cutting the body and frame up to move the upper arms around? just add a tq arm and pan hard bar? Something like in this video:

skip to 19 min:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi2lYamNd94


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1045837 - 11/28/16 06:04 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: Onebadbowtie86]  
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Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
would it be better to go to a 3 link setup then cutting the body and frame up to move the upper arms around? just add a tq arm and pan hard bar? Something like in this video:

skip to 19 min:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi2lYamNd94


I already have thought too run a torque arm set up. That will require a new rear axle for me. But it's not off the table yet. So who knows that might just be the route I go after the new year?

But even with that I might have to modify the drive shaft tunnel??

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 11/29/16 02:19 PM.

Enjoy life, family first!
#1045838 - 11/28/16 06:43 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: Onebadbowtie86]  
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SSLance Offline
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Peoria, AZ
Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
would it be better to go to a 3 link setup then cutting the body and frame up to move the upper arms around? just add a tq arm and pan hard bar? Something like in this video:

skip to 19 min:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi2lYamNd94


That video shows installing a 3 link with the upper link in the exact center of the axle. If converting to a three link, no reason not to offset it to the pass side to even out the torque application. Otherwise, that is pretty much what would need to be done in our cars as well. Only we have a massive crossmember there in the way as well as the floor of the car right behind it.

If you meant to post a video about installing a TA...please do... **drool**


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1045842 - 11/28/16 07:25 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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I didn't even watch that video....LOL And yes that's much different than my original TA plan. I more or less wanted too copy the GM F body set up.

I have a guy interested in my auto trans. And a member here interested in my rear end. So after the new year with a little revenue generated. I might start with a new F body rear axle from Moser and let the games begin.


Enjoy life, family first!
#1045843 - 11/28/16 07:54 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Onebadbowtie86 Offline
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What would be the difference between the setup shown in that video and an f body tq arm? Aren't they accomplishing the same thing?


'86 Monte carlo ss-Frame off resto-mod.
Ls2/t56/8.5"
#1045844 - 11/28/16 08:04 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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The main difference is that upper arm is about 8" long and a TA is about 55" long...this affects the torque split (how much of the torque pushes down on the rear tires and how much pushes forward on the lower link arms. The TA is a 50/50 split every time.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1045845 - 11/28/16 08:10 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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That's a 3-link in the video. A torque arm is more rigidly connected to the rear axle, as it is designed to counteract drive torque in the same way that lift bars do on leaf spring rears.

#1045846 - 11/28/16 08:14 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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SSLance Offline
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Bernie, can you help explain how an offset upper arm on a three link helps even out tire grip between left and right side tires? And also how a TA does the same?

I know it has something to do with the rotational friction of the differential but don't know enough to try to explain it better.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1045874 - 11/29/16 12:41 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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In short, it offsets the anti-squat forces towards the passenger side.

The driveshaft spins counter-clockwise, viewed from the rear of the car. That lifts the right tire and plants the left. That's why cars without LSD's spin the passenger tire on a straight launch.

The links react the wind-up torque of the axle and propel the car forward. While accelerating, the lowers are in axial compression and the upper link is in tension. These axial forces can be broken down into orthogonal components, as in a free-body diagram. There is a longitudinal force component(level with the ground and parallel to the centerline of the car) and a vertical force component. The sum of the vertical force components of the links is what gives you anti-squat. Offsetting the upper link, which is in tension, to the passenger side pulls the axle down and adds load to the passenger tire.

I have seen a formula somewhere that calculates the ideal offset based on torque at the pinion (engine torque times trans gear) and anti-squat, and probably tire traction too. It's not an exact science though, as the torque changes based on what gear the trans is in and anti-squat forces change based on front to rear dynamic weight transfer, road surface, etc.

#1045877 - 11/29/16 02:46 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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SSLance Offline
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^ yeah that... laugh


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1045882 - 11/29/16 07:14 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Vehicle dynamics engineer Bernie laid that one out quiet well. clap

Now I actually really understand the benefit of the TA. I had a general idea but that really clarified things, Thanks.


Enjoy life, family first!
#1045896 - 11/30/16 12:37 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Haha! laugh
If you need me tomorrow, I'll be at Transportation Research Center in East Liberty, Ohio on their huge VDA (asphault lake)!!

#1045915 - 11/30/16 03:35 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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SSLance Offline
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How's the weather out there today?


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1045931 - 11/30/16 10:03 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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SickSpeedMonte Offline
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High 50's and cloudy. High of 39 tomorrow and Friday eek
Saw a couple guys from ZF at the hotel.

#1045933 - 11/30/16 11:58 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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MikesMontes Offline
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you should stop out --about 70 miles from there


www.mikesmontes.com
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We have all your 4th Gen Monte Carlo needs
#1045994 - 12/02/16 09:41 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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That would have been great, but unfortunately we didn't have time this trip. We flew back out this morning.

#1046105 - 12/06/16 04:53 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SickSpeedMonte]  
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Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte


I have seen a formula somewhere that calculates the ideal offset based on torque at the pinion (engine torque times trans gear) and anti-squat, and probably tire traction too. It's not an exact science though, as the torque changes based on what gear the trans is in and anti-squat forces change based on front to rear dynamic weight transfer, road surface, etc.


You're probably thinking about Bill Shope's formulas for calculating angles and link lengths on offset 3-links. If you google "Bill Shope three link calculator" you'll find a few people that have created Excel models using his data.

From his forumula, you can calculate link arm lengths and angles with arbitrary third link offsets. You can come up with some very interesting packaging. You can invert the links and put the outer parallel links on top and the third link on bottom, have the links go backwards, whatever.

I ran the calculations years ago, and came up with absolutely nothing that did not require cutting the floorpan and removing the rear seat. If you go backwards you're into the gas tank. If you flip the LCAs to the top of the axle, you still have to fab a crossmember for the center link and lose a bunch of ground clearance.

On the subject of torque arms... they would work. It's how the Fox body Mustang guys dealt with their converging 4 links. It would require fabrication of a crossmember and could really cut into ground clearance. For a commercial application, the manufacturer would have a big challenge picking which rear ends to support, since the attachment design at the pumpkin would be very different depending on the particular model of rear end.

#1046107 - 12/06/16 05:28 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Wow, that calculator is intense...

http://www.crawlpedia.com/files/3_link_calculator.xls

Thanks Andrew...


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1046109 - 12/06/16 06:53 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Turbo6inKY Offline
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Originally Posted By: SSLance
Wow, that calculator is intense...

http://www.crawlpedia.com/files/3_link_calculator.xls

Thanks Andrew...


Yeah, you need a lot of measurements.

All this often has me thinking truck arms aren't such a bad idea. They're way cheaper, the math is dead nuts simple, and many of us watch them work on TV all summer long.

#1046112 - 12/06/16 08:00 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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MC96 Offline
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Heres a monte with truck arms!

Heck even a 9", splined sway bar, fuel cell, all sorts of goodies thumbs


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1046113 - 12/06/16 08:16 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: Turbo6inKY]  
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SSLance Offline
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Originally Posted By: Turbo6inKY
Originally Posted By: SSLance
Wow, that calculator is intense...

http://www.crawlpedia.com/files/3_link_calculator.xls

Thanks Andrew...


Yeah, you need a lot of measurements.

All this often has me thinking truck arms aren't such a bad idea. They're way cheaper, the math is dead nuts simple, and many of us watch them work on TV all summer long.


Not any more measurements that I calculated when I blue printed to front suspension on my car...way less in fact.


Ron Sutton claims it would take less than a week for every NASCAR Cup team to switch from a truck arm setup to a decoupled 3 link if the rules were changed to allow them. The off set decoupled 3 link is THAT much better than the truck arm setup.

We are talking about relatively small changes there though when compared to what most of us are talking about when trying to fix the triangulated 4 link in our cars.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1046116 - 12/06/16 09:02 PM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Turbo6inKY Offline
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Originally Posted By: SSLance
[

Ron Sutton claims it would take less than a week for every NASCAR Cup team to switch from a truck arm setup to a decoupled 3 link if the rules were changed to allow them. The off set decoupled 3 link is THAT much better than the truck arm setup.



I don't doubt it. I'm sure you can dial in the anti-squat a lot better with the three link, but the improvement from converging 4-link to truck arm is bigger than the improvement between the truck arms and the 3 link.

I've driven a Sprint Cup car at Indy. Averaged 141mph laps, mostly because they didn't want me spinning the engine past 5000rpm. The car was amazing. It did absolutely nothing weird. At that speed, the kind of twitch we get from rear-steer would make the car extremely dangerous. The truck arms work. The only drawback is exhaust routing. The 3 link on our cars requires intruding into the passenger compartment in addition to making the LCAs parallel. It's just a lot of work for what I'm expecting to be a minor gain.

The NASCAR people want that minor gain.

#1046177 - 12/08/16 05:54 AM Re: SSLance's Build thread [Re: SSLance]  
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Number1 Offline
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OK
Any updates on the car or the stoptech brakes and hub for our cars?

Last edited by Number1; 12/08/16 05:55 AM.
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