MonteCarloSS.com
MonteCarloSS.com

CELEBRATING 20 YEARS!

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#320015 - 07/21/05 02:05 AM Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,384
Atl_Monte Offline
Member
Atl_Monte  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,384
Atlanta, GA
which is the better shock? Bilstein or KYB?


1988 Monte Carlo SS fully customizedm, cowl hood, Kandy paint w/ ghost flames, power sunroof, 24" rims 327 SB - SOLD

1986 Monte Carlo SS 350 create motor, cowl hood, shaved handles & trunk, power sun roof, digital dash
http://youtu.be/aKZI0FhUP6U

1984 H/O Cutlass lightning rods 8.5" rear LT1 and C5 brake conversion under way 24" rims
#320016 - 07/21/05 02:24 AM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 110
bone head Offline
Member
bone head  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 110
san jose ca.
it depends on what you are going to do for street run kyb they perform great undre most all conditions but if you want a harsh ride plan on road race [ on track] car go for a more tune able shock like bilstine tokeiko or koni

#320017 - 07/21/05 03:00 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 623
TURBO Offline
Member
TURBO  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 623
TN Smoky Mtns
I have had my Bilsteins for over 3 years and love them. My ride is a daily driver and the ride is not harsh. I also completely rebuilt the front end with all new Moog parts and Del-A-Lum bushings. Hotchkis springs and bars. A great setup.



87 SS White/ Saddle,t-top,350/330 hp
#320018 - 07/21/05 03:16 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,140
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,140
Yuma, AZ
Hi Folks,

I've had KYB's and Bilstein's on G-bodies, and I thought the Bilstein's were superior to the KYB's in every way I could recall. The KYB's, for instance, were harsher-riding (read: more transmission of higher-frequency noise and vibration into the passenger compartment) than the Bilstein's. Ride harshness and tuneability aren't necessarily correlatable attributes of a shock absorber, incidentally.

HTH,
MAP

#320019 - 07/21/05 10:39 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,396
Marcus Offline
Authorized Vendor
15+ Year
Marcus  Offline
Authorized Vendor
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,396
PA.
I have to agree with MAP. In this case you really do get what you pay for. I`ve used a LOT of KYBs over the years for budget minded customers and while they`re generally better than el cheapo discount store shocks they`ve never impressed me in any way. In some applications they were luxo barge soft and in others uncomfortably harsh. Marcus


--Savitske Classic & Custom--
Cutting edge suspension & brakes
--Author of "How to Make Your Muscle Car Handle"--

www.SCandC.com
sales@scandc.com 610-381-6100
#320020 - 07/22/05 11:03 AM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 222
JJMonteSS Offline
Member
JJMonteSS  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 222
Detroit, MI
I just rebuilt my complete suspension with Moog parts and Hotchkis springs/sway bars. I went with the KYB's and love them. I went back and forth between them and the Bilsteins and bottom line is for a street car, the Bilsteins cost twice as much but are not that much better to justify the cost if you're on a budget.

The KYB's are awesome compared to my worn out Monroe shocks and stock suspension. I can now go over railroad tracks without coming to a complete stop. The other day, I was having fun around some corners and took a right turn at 40 miles an hour not touching the brake pedal and the car stayed perfectly flat--no body/tire roll at all. For $100 through Jegs--I couldn't be more impressed.

With Bilsteins, at twice the money--you will not be able to take corners twice as fast.

Jason



'85 SS ZZ383, Extreme Automatics 2004r, 8.5 rear w/3.73 & Z06 brakes, Harwood hood, & Torque Thrust II 17's.
#320021 - 07/22/05 10:51 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 753
ProTourAero Offline
Member
ProTourAero  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 753
Chesterton, IN
I have the KYB's on mine, but after "MAP's" post I may want to try the Bilsteins. I guess it depends on your budget!



1987 Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe "Pro Touring", 436ci All Alum. SBC, 18 Aluminum Heads, 700R4, 3000stall, Ford 9 inch, 3.90 gears, 620 H.P., 590 FT LBS Torque. E.T. 11.229 @ 123.62 on motor. 10.213 @ 137.58 NOS (10/02/2010)!
www.protouraero.com
#320022 - 07/28/05 04:34 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 297
RKHiPerformance Offline
Member
RKHiPerformance  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 297
Anderson, SC
A while back I swapped the KYB's in our '86 T-Type for Bilsteins and was not disappointed. I always felt that the Bilsteins were noticeably better than the KYB's, and this apples-to-apples comparison was proof enough for me. The KYB's almost seem too stiff, while the Bilsteins provide a taut, firm ride that makes the car feel new again.
These days we use Bilsteins in everything, including our Suburban. The Bilsteins are guaranteed forever and you can buy 'em right at Autozone.
Remember...You get what you pay for.


2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8
2010 Camaro RS/SS
1986 Monte Carlo SS (GN-Powered)
1984 Monte Carlo SS (Rat-Powered)
www.MetcoMotorsports.com
#320023 - 07/28/05 05:48 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,666
John S Offline
15+ Year
John S  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,666
Orange County NY
QA-1's are awesome!


1986 Monte Carlo SS, 427 SBC,
T56 6spd, Moser M9 3:70
SC&C G5,, Spohn Tubular A arms,
Pirelli P Zero 275-40x17 rear, 245-45x17 front
#320024 - 07/30/05 06:26 AM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,384
Atl_Monte Offline
Member
Atl_Monte  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,384
Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Originally posted by John S:
QA-1's are awesome!
yea I heard they are good too, but thats not one of the choices


1988 Monte Carlo SS fully customizedm, cowl hood, Kandy paint w/ ghost flames, power sunroof, 24" rims 327 SB - SOLD

1986 Monte Carlo SS 350 create motor, cowl hood, shaved handles & trunk, power sun roof, digital dash
http://youtu.be/aKZI0FhUP6U

1984 H/O Cutlass lightning rods 8.5" rear LT1 and C5 brake conversion under way 24" rims
#320025 - 02/02/06 02:42 AM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 46
bradleyls103 Offline
Member
bradleyls103  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 46
Imlay City, MI
KYB's are the best!


Bradley
#320026 - 02/06/06 08:59 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 130
PLANT PROTECTION Offline
Member
PLANT PROTECTION  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 130
LaPorte, IN
I have Bilsteins on my front and they are very stiff, weight transfer is almost nill combined with lowering springs.

#320027 - 02/07/06 09:17 AM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,288
RocknSS Offline
Member
RocknSS  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,288
Shirley, NY
I have the Hotchkis springs front rear, bars, arms, etc....all with KYB's. I also was budget concious at the time. I have had this setup for two years and I am very happy with it. I can't say the KYB is better than Bilsteins as I haven't tried those.
KYB's are fine for the street, a great shock and a good value.


1985 MCSS-ZZ4, Eddy headers, custom tuned Q-Jet, CK stage 2 2004r, Hotchkis TVS, ZQ8 wheels and cowl hood
1986 Monte SS - mostly stock

#320028 - 02/07/06 01:04 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,862
Gruvin Offline
Moderator
15+ Year
Gruvin  Offline
Moderator
15+ Year

Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,862
Texas
Quote:
Originally posted by John S:
QA-1's are awesome!
I was planning on going with these myself but my brother just installed a set of Bilstiens on his 88 and he absolutely loves them so I may get those instead(I know that is apples to oranges in this case but I am building a driver car, not a track/show car)

Too many people yelling harsh ride with the KYPs for me to even look at them...


My first SS! Sold Jan 2004
[Linked Image]
87 SS bought 9-5-04: Sold 6-18-2010 - project 87 finds a new home with another undisclosed MonteCarloSS.com member!
#320029 - 02/07/06 04:34 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,051
88 ISStock Offline
15+ Year
88 ISStock  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,051
St. Louis, MO
The 'violent agreement' reached with guys on the Impala SS Forum is with mushy OEM Caprice or Fleetwood springs, the KYBs are cheaper and just fine. For higher rate or lowered springs they just can't keep up and feel sloppy, which most agree require at least Bilsteins, or, QA1, KONI & other even more expensive choices.

BTW, the '88, the Impala SS and Fleetwood all have Bilstiens all corners now. Oh, and for our Gizm and Tribute I could give a rip. \:D


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear. Currently going to T56
#320030 - 02/07/06 06:30 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,140
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,140
Yuma, AZ
Hi Folks,

I thought I'd flesh-out my post (about 12 places back) a little more.

In my history of having A/G-body cars, I started with garden-variety Gabriels and Monroes. All were comfortable-riding shocks that did well with stock tires. When I graduated to shorter/stiffer sidewall tires and stiffer springs, I quickly found that garden-variety shocks were inadequate and generally yielded an underdamped response from the tire/suspension.

First up the ladder were Monroe Formula GP's (remember those?!) circa 1989-1993. They were a big improvement and matched Michelin 245-50 ZR tires and suspension springs that were about 75% stiffer than stock quite nicely.

Next round the block were the Bilstein's. They were quite comparable to the Formula GP's, but didn't start to leak every year or so as did the Monroe's.

Then came the KYB's. They were cheaper than the Bilstein's and Monroe Formula GP's, but they were noticeably harsher-riding than the former shock absorbers. (In terms of "harsher," I'm guessing mainly 20Hz and up.) Normally, one would expect harsher-riding to mean more highly-dampened as well, but that clearly wasn't the case - the Bilstein's and Monroe's offered higher dampening yet with a smoother ride - both pluses in anyone's book, I would imagine. I've wondered about the reason for this - could it have been the use of lossier rubber for the piston seals and frame/control-arm-mounting bushings in the case of Bilstein and Monroe? Or was it something about the time-response of the valving? Or maybe just the fluid and/or the gas?

Whatever the reason, after using the KYB's, I went back to Bilstein's and haven't looked back since.

Best,
MAP

#320031 - 02/07/06 07:09 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,975
1984 MonteManiac Offline
Member
1984 MonteManiac  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,975
tax york
This may sound silly, but I just checked Bilsteins site, and they do not list shocks for the Monte carlo, but they do for a celebrity???? I must have missed something



I hate know it alls and doubting toms.
#320032 - 02/07/06 07:22 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 12,283
PB86SS/87LS Offline
Administrator
20+ Year
PB86SS/87LS  Offline
Administrator
20+ Year

Member

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 12,283
New Berlin, WI
FYI the best price I have found to get Bilstiens is at Autozone, takes them a couple days to arrive as its a special order but you don't pay shipping and the prices are the lowest. Last time I got a set was 3 years ago however.


-86'SS 383 CCC QJet- BRF 2004r-8.5" 3.42
-87'LS 350 MAF/SD TPI- CRF 2004r-7.5" 3.42
-81'Grand LeMans Safari Wagon 3.8 2bbl/200C/2.73
-07'TBSS Stockish daily driver
[Linked Image]
#320033 - 02/07/06 08:36 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,708
Duts87SS Offline
15+ Year
Duts87SS  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,708
Spanish Fort, AL USA
Summit was the same list price as Autozone when I bought mine. I paid the $9 handling fee,but didnt have to pay the 7% tax on $240.


Dustin
87 SS
[Linked Image]
#320034 - 02/07/06 09:49 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,051
88 ISStock Offline
15+ Year
88 ISStock  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,051
St. Louis, MO
I got mine at;

Anderson & Stiehle
1300 Hill St
El Cahon, CA
619.444.9766

sales@shox.com

B36-0949 Front
B46-0929 Rear

They matched someone else's price like Duts- above but their shipping was cheaper yet.


383 11:1 plugged/decked 1pc. roller sbc with 2pc. RMS adapter and forged rotating assem., Canfield alum 215/65, Howards Hyd. Roller 226/234 525/532 -110, CCCQ-Jet on AirGap, Bilsteins & 2/3 coil off OEM's in front & Intrax Impala SS coils in rear. Currently going to T56
#320035 - 02/07/06 10:35 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,862
Gruvin Offline
Moderator
15+ Year
Gruvin  Offline
Moderator
15+ Year

Member

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,862
Texas
Quote:
Originally posted by PB86SS/87LS:
FYI the best price I have found to get Bilstiens is at Autozone, takes them a couple days to arrive as its a special order but you don't pay shipping and the prices are the lowest. Last time I got a set was 3 years ago however.
I like the fact I can trade my current shocks bought from autozone in on the Bilsteins so my out of pocket is less cause I already spent some when I got the first set... Good tip for any of you guys that have the lifetime warranty ones from autozone...


My first SS! Sold Jan 2004
[Linked Image]
87 SS bought 9-5-04: Sold 6-18-2010 - project 87 finds a new home with another undisclosed MonteCarloSS.com member!
#320036 - 02/08/06 02:44 AM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 12,283
PB86SS/87LS Offline
Administrator
20+ Year
PB86SS/87LS  Offline
Administrator
20+ Year

Member

Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 12,283
New Berlin, WI
I think I paid $220 for mine, again a few years ago...would have to check the receipt. For easiness of exchange/warranty too I prefer a local place than shipping a set out. Just something to think .


-86'SS 383 CCC QJet- BRF 2004r-8.5" 3.42
-87'LS 350 MAF/SD TPI- CRF 2004r-7.5" 3.42
-81'Grand LeMans Safari Wagon 3.8 2bbl/200C/2.73
-07'TBSS Stockish daily driver
[Linked Image]
#320037 - 02/08/06 04:49 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,595
Norm Peterson Offline
15+ Year
Norm Peterson  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,595
state of confusion
Quote:
Originally posted by MAP:
Then came the KYB's. They were cheaper than the Bilstein's and Monroe Formula GP's, but they were noticeably harsher-riding than the former shock absorbers. (In terms of "harsher," I'm guessing mainly 20Hz and up.) Normally, one would expect harsher-riding to mean more highly-dampened as well, but that clearly wasn't the case - the Bilstein's and Monroe's offered higher dampening yet with a smoother ride - both pluses in anyone's book, I would imagine. I've wondered about the reason for this - could it have been the use of lossier rubber for the piston seals and frame/control-arm-mounting bushings in the case of Bilstein and Monroe? Or was it something about the time-response of the valving? Or maybe just the fluid and/or the gas?
IIRC the GP's used a poly or hard rubber bushing at least on one end. That would account for some of the HF NVH.

But I suspect that the real reason for the difference in "feel" lies in differences in the internal valving. For the shocks that you mentioned, this isn't directly a pistons or seal issue but a fluid passage and moving-parts-acting-like-check-valves kind of thing. For position-sensitive shocks such as Monroe Sensa-Tracs, the pistons and the case are directly associated with some of the damping characteristics.

Generally, damping is divided as 'bump' and 'rebound' for direction and as high and low speed in either for a total of four general operating conditions. Low speed is primarily activated by chassis motions while small sharp bumps and roughness tend toward the high speeds. It's entirely possible to design a shock that offers relatively firm low speed damping that drops off at the higher piston speeds (digressive, in shock-speak). Bilsteins typically exhibit this sort of valving. By comparison, the KYB's are either linear (the low and high speed damping remains a relatively constant percentage of critical) or possibly even progressive (lighter low speed damping getting heavier as piston speed rises).

One other thought is that the split for optimal rebound vs bump damping tends to vary toward less bump/greater rebound as the spring rate is increased. It's a tuning thing, as you're looking to hold the sum of the load increase that comes from a similar deflection of the stiffer spring plus the damping force that's a function of shock piston velocity relatively constant while maintaining at least the same percentage of critical damping against the stiffer spring during its extension.

Norm


'08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (mine)
'10 Legacy 2.5GT, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)

Gone but not forgotten dep't: '95 Mazda 626, V6/5M; '79 Chevy Malibu, 4M/5M; '87 Maxima, 5M; '72 Ford Pinto, 4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A . . .
#320038 - 02/08/06 05:48 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,140
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,140
Yuma, AZ
Hi Norm,

Thanks for that explanation! I'm curious how the shock designer creates divergence or its opposite characteristic, and in particular, how the "...moving-parts-acting-like-check-valves kind of thing" can act with such a fast response, and a response which is sufficiently sensitive to minute deflections, so as not to manifest something akin to stiction. Maybe that's one of the reasons for the compliant/lossy rubber bushings used at the shock mounting ends, i.e., to act as a mechanical low-pass filter to smooth valving response "jitter?" Inertia of moving parts would be the fundamental problem.

The last paragraph you wrote is a little puzzling to me. You describe a non-linear system and in particular, one where the dampening force isn't directly propotional to velocity, in which case the concept of "Q" theoretically doesn't apply (but practically speaking, probably does somewhat, as in your approximation where you consider dampening bimodally.)

And, as dampening force at constant velocity would increasingly differ as a function of direction of travel (i.e., bump vs. rebound,) and as the system therefore becomes more non-linear, I have to wonder how this behavior would be reflected to, and reacted by, the driver. It's been my uniform experience that linear is good, and non-linear is bad in this regard. This seems to go against the general aim of high-performance handling in the sense of creating highly predictable and controllable feedback for the driver. Do we have an exception in this case?

Thanks,
MAP

#320039 - 02/08/06 08:06 PM Re: Bilstein vs. KYB  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,595
Norm Peterson Offline
15+ Year
Norm Peterson  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,595
state of confusion
Fluid being essentially incompressible means that pressure can build pretty easily. Shims of various thickness and diameter act as the valve. They're not very thick or have much mass, so response really is that quick. Or can be (I understand that there is some hysteresis involved during cycling them).

The last paragraph is really nothing more than an exaggerated case of the standard one, in which no two combinations of speed and direction provide identical damping. Just that the tuning for the stiffer spring condition has additional "skew" to it.

Don't forget that damping force is velocity-sensitive, and will never peak at the same time as spring or sta-bar force (which are purely position-sensitive and necessarily peak when the shock's damping force contribution is zero). Maximum velocity and damping in bump obviously occurs earlier, and the max rebound effects later.

For ride comfort, it's been found that biasing the damping to the rebound side is preferable anyway, and a too-rapid increase in tire loading as might occur on encountering a bump can make you lose grip. I'd guess that the fact that the tire is a separate spring/mass/damper system has something to do with this.

On various sites, there are some curves for Konis, some information on Penskes including quite a bit of discussion about the internals, and a collection of tech tips that I've downloaded recently (this to support a damped flat ride analysis effort). Sorry I didn't bookmark the sites, but I may still be able to track them down.

Norm


'08 GT coupe, 5M, suspension unstockish (mine)
'10 Legacy 2.5GT, 6M (hers)
'01 Maxima 20AE, 5M (spare, winter driver)

Gone but not forgotten dep't: '95 Mazda 626, V6/5M; '79 Chevy Malibu, 4M/5M; '87 Maxima, 5M; '72 Ford Pinto, 4M; '64 Dodge V8/3A . . .
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Random Images
500/thumbs/thmb_mikesss3.jpg
by BadAssSS
981/thumbs/monte01.jpg
by Robs86MCLS
500/thumbs/DSC04211.JPG
by bullet187
571/thumbs/Right_Front.jpg
by wifes'86ss_Mechanic
665/thumbs/breannas_1st_b-day_137.jpg
by MARIO87SS
Help MonteCarloSS.com


Recent Contributors
finallySS
Authorized Vendors
Tell them you saw it
on MonteCarloSS.com!


CustomMonteSSParts.com
Dixie Monte Carlo Depot
GSI Interiors
HRpartsNstuff
Mikes Montes
Savitske Classic & Custom
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0