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#1073702 - 04/21/22 04:01 PM ABS Retrofit Project  
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Travis Jones Offline
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Travis Jones  Offline
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So autox/racing tires are expensive and anyone who has flat spotted a set understand this. ABS can prevent flat spotting

ABS can definitely help with this - but a Bosch Standalone Motorsports ABS kit is $10K+

So I'm going to try retrofitting ABS to a Monte Carlo SS, my car is a little different than most as I have a 2013 Ford 8.8 that has provisions for ABS sensors.

In the front I am converting to 99-05 2wd Blazer hubs and spindles which provide what I believe to be a 52 tooth ABS tone ring.

In the rear I have 50 tooth Ford Mustang tone rings and sensors.

Because I have 4 piston Brembo Calipers in the front and '13 Ford Mustang GT brakes in the back, I have a very similar brake setup to a 2012-2013 Boss 302 Mustang. Pad surface area and fluid volume is the same between the Boss 302 and my car, the Mustang wheel base is 107.1 our cars is 108, The Boss 302 master cylinder is 1.06 inches, the Wilwood master cylinder I will be using is 1.0 inches

I purchased a 2013 Boss 302 ABS Pump and computer - which from what I can tell will work in a standalone mode when not connected to the Mustang SRS Restraints control module or Ford engine ECU/BCM
Ford also offers a Boss 302R road race computer module that bolts to the ABS pump with more aggressive programming for $425 (and if the base 302 ABS system works I'll be upgrading to this module later)

The big question is if the offset in tooth count will cause problems. My assumption is that there is some built in allowable offset for the use of spare tires, and larger wheels in the rear. I read a forum post of someone with an S197 Mustang running 245/40R17's in the front and 275/40/17's in the rear, the same 4% difference my tone rings will show, without issue in ABS or TC functionality.

I'm still waiting on parts to show up, but I'll keep everyone in the loop if this is a viable upgrade.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1073704 - 04/21/22 07:46 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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SSLance Offline
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Good luck with the project... It's a daunting task for sure.

Everyone that I know that has retrofitted any type of ABS onto our old cars (aftermarket or OEM) has ended up disabling it or just taking it all back off. They are VERY hard to get dialed in properly.

The closest I have ever come to flat spotting any of my expensive race tires is trying to get stopped for the silly stop cones at a Good Guys event. They make you come to a complete stop right after the finish lights or it's a DNF. I've been fortunate to never hurt any of mine enough to shorten their lifespan though. Even guest driver's have never had an issue with my brakes on an SCCA style course. I think having more brakes than necessary helps vs not enough or not balanced brakes.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1073705 - 04/22/22 12:01 AM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: SSLance]  
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Travis Jones Offline
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Ferndale, MI
Originally Posted by SSLance
Good luck with the project... It's a daunting task for sure.

Everyone that I know that has retrofitted any type of ABS onto our old cars (aftermarket or OEM) has ended up disabling it or just taking it all back off. They are VERY hard to get dialed in properly.

The closest I have ever come to flat spotting any of my expensive race tires is trying to get stopped for the silly stop cones at a Good Guys event. They make you come to a complete stop right after the finish lights or it's a DNF. I've been fortunate to never hurt any of mine enough to shorten their lifespan though. Even guest driver's have never had an issue with my brakes on an SCCA style course. I think having more brakes than necessary helps vs not enough or not balanced brakes.


Quite a few folks have gotten the GT500 + FR500 module to work great in Fox and SN95 Mustangs. And a bunch of the factory 5 kit car guys have managed to get it working using either the 3 or 4 channel SN95 mustang systems.

I figured for ~$200 and some time it would be a fun project to try out. If nothing else the ECU I have can do launch control if it can see a non driven wheel speed sensor.

the real impetus for new spindles and hubs was I hated the kingpin angle I have with the drop spindles, the UMI cornermax kit doesn't need drop spindles to get the car to the ride height I want. right now they are jacked up to keep the tires out of the inner wheel wells.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1073709 - 04/22/22 04:19 AM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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Buick Runner Offline
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Dharma station 1 the Hydra
Surprised you would even consider using Blazer spindles and hubs. You most likely will need to modify them to accept Ford ABS sensors. ABS computers generally don't like ABS sensors for other brands. May also need something like FORScan and a ABS warning light.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1073710 - 04/22/22 01:22 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Buick Runner]  
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Travis Jones Offline
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Originally Posted by Buick Runner
Surprised you would even consider using Blazer spindles and hubs. You most likely will need to modify them to accept Ford ABS sensors. ABS computers generally don't like ABS sensors for other brands. May also need something like FORScan and a ABS warning light.


Yeah, I don’t love the durability of the sealed blazer hubs, but it was the only way to go with my existing front brakes in a non-drop spindle. I looked into AFX spindles, but they were a bit more pricey and not confirmed to work with my brake setup.

The ABS signal is just a square AC waveform. Passive ABS sensors are just a magnet with a coil. So long as all sensors are passive (which they are) it shouldn’t be a problem. The 52 tooth sensors in the front will just show a 4% faster wheel speed than the rear with the same 275/35R18’s on all four corners. I could run a 275/40R18 and that would make it within 0.2%

As for ForScan, the Boss 302R unit automatically disables the TC/ESP, I have a scanner that can access CAN, but most things in the Bosch ABS unit itself are not reprogram-able. But hey this is all conjecture until I get it installed, the ABS computer might freak out but it’s worth the try for as cheap as the ABS pump was.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1073721 - 04/25/22 08:25 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Sounds like a fun project. I'm fairly surprised that Ford actually has an adaptable, standalone capable system. It always seems like they go the other direction and might have 4 different ABS systems for the same year model Mustang that are completely incompatible.
Good luck on it, sounds like you have done your homework and it sounds like a reasonable backup plan is to stagger your F/R tire sizes. Looking forward to seeing how it works thumbs


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1073723 - 04/25/22 08:57 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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88ssBrent Online content
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Project sounds interesting, probably not something I will ever look into but I'm definitely interested in following just to see how it works out.

#1073737 - 04/26/22 09:47 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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So the software must be looking at four (near) squarewave signals from four sensors and applying logic to know which, and how much, to modulate for any braking action. My guess is that the system will ignore constant-velocity differences between two axles, but not within two wheels on the same axle. If this weren't so, then when owners of ABS vehicles might change wheels with an accompanying change in diameter on one of two axles, the system would break.

The logic might even learn to see a big velocity difference on the same axle and ignore it if it has relative permanence, such as when an owner has a flat and uses a space-saver spare.

Last edited by MAP; 04/26/22 09:47 PM.
#1073760 - 04/28/22 05:01 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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SickSpeedMonte Offline
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From what I understand, the system will probably be more sensitive to changes in wheel/tire inertia than diameter.

I've been told from a very reputable source that 75%+ of ABS tuning is special cases. The system looks at the rate that the wheel speeds up after releasing the brakes and based on that and the pre-programmed inertia, determines the friction of the tire/road interface. Based on wheel speeds alone, it can predict if you are on wet, ice, have a space-saver tire, are turning, etc, and compensate accordingly.

If you can get it all working, it might offer a substantial performance enhancement, as it can modulate the pressures at all 4 corners and optimize braking force. We have had professional drivers claim they can stop better than ABS, but nobody able to demonstrate it yet. It doesn't just unlock the brakes in a skid, it cycles the slip/force relationship around the peak of the tire curve, trying to balance stopping, steering, and stability. If it's a performance-tuned system like the upgrade you mentioned, and your car's characteristics are similar enough, it should be a nice upgrade.

Last edited by SickSpeedMonte; 04/28/22 05:02 PM.
#1073762 - 04/28/22 10:58 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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MAP Offline
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Hi SSM,

Yes, what I suspect is that the system looks at (probably zero-crossing) frequency counting at all four wheels, and computes that count as a function of time at each wheel, along with probably at least two orders of time differentiation of that function. All wheels are compared. Then, algorithms are applied of a general AI-variety to decide when and how much to apply braking action at each wheel. Pre-programmed inertial responses could be tricky, however, if the owner changes wheels, unless a certain range of variation is ignored.

In a nutshell I think that's it, anyway.

But the upshot here is that the system is probably programmed to ignore steady-state frequency-count differences between wheels, probably according to some kind of time constant, like, say a minute or so (?)

Last edited by MAP; 04/28/22 10:59 PM.
#1073801 - 05/01/22 07:52 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: MAP]  
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Travis Jones Offline
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Ferndale, MI
Originally Posted by MAP
Hi SSM,

Yes, what I suspect is that the system looks at (probably zero-crossing) frequency counting at all four wheels, and computes that count as a function of time at each wheel, along with probably at least two orders of time differentiation of that function. All wheels are compared. Then, algorithms are applied of a general AI-variety to decide when and how much to apply braking action at each wheel. Pre-programmed inertial responses could be tricky, however, if the owner changes wheels, unless a certain range of variation is ignored.

In a nutshell I think that's it, anyway.

But the upshot here is that the system is probably programmed to ignore steady-state frequency-count differences between wheels, probably according to some kind of time constant, like, say a minute or so (?)


That's definitely what I'm hoping for. Custom tone rings for the back are a possibility, but would be very expensive, the other option would be to have billet spindles made to use mustang front hubs, but either way it would be quite pricey, granted not as pricey as a standalone Bosch motorsports system.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1073814 - 05/02/22 06:09 PM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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SickSpeedMonte Offline
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You should shoot Mason Cowan a line, he has a hook up with CNC machining and you might be surprised. Tone rings shouldn't be terribly complicated to machine even manually with a rotary table on a mill.

#1073827 - 05/05/22 04:21 AM Re: ABS Retrofit Project [Re: Travis Jones]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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Yes - that reluctor wheel causes an induced EMF in a sensor coil by virtue of the variable magnetic reluctance, and thus variable B-field, that is created as teeth align and misalign during the reluctor wheel's rotation. Guitar pickups work exactly the same way. It's all Faraday's law. So basically, take any old chunk of iron, machine it into a toothed wheel with the right tooth pitch, and you're done as far as that component is concerned.

Last edited by MAP; 05/05/22 04:24 AM.

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