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#1074001 - 05/28/22 03:17 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Neither section of the arm or torsion bar splines were powdercoated, made sure they didn't get coated. Dry fit, no lube or neverseize.
Will get the links into a no load situation by raising which ever side of the car needs load off of it and see if the arm can be removed from the bar on that left side.
Will reset the arm after making sure no grease is in the spline and torque again to 35. Also need to paint marker the spline contact on both sides so the arms are clocked the same if future removal becomes necessary.
One concern when doing a three piece bar is having the left and right arms "clocked" the same when installed. A check after install showed less than 1/2 degree difference side to side.

These AN6 Airframe bolts should have a 125K tensile strength, an ARP 3/8 bolts is said to be 180K and up depending on application
Using an AN365 locknut I've read the torque should be 16 lb using that bolt and that locknut. Usually a grade 5 through 8 3/8" bolt will get 36lb
ARP on their 3/8-24 says 54 lb.

The camber curve is another area where major improvements have been done. Currently camber at 20 degree -3.5 degrees IN (Comp) or +3.5 degrees OUT (Droop). So camber gain at 20 degrees is in the area of 2 degrees, my static goal is - 1 1/4 degree.

I'm guessing for an autox potential improvement this three piece bar mod may be the ticket, but the proof is in the pudding. An old, friend who has years of track car experience said the same thing, a huge bar will create a ton of understeer. At my last encounters at the autox, 34 runs, felt no understeer, push, or even noise from the front tires. The only way to see if that changed is to beat on it next Sat.
Last year at the second event was a guy my son knows who can jump in anything and be fast. He may get a little seat time in the car. Nothing like experience, where's Randy Pobst when you need him.

Ron if I would have done a body off frame build i would have done the boxing also. But as noted by Mark I have Delrin #1 and #2 body bushing, a 1/2 dozen other braces in the car to help the marriage of the frame and body. Machine to fit urethane body bushing are used at #3 and rearward in the 86. The body to frame connection is very good.

One place to check, repair, that is a potential problem child on these frames is the right side UCA mount welded to the frame. A guy here found this a problem on the frame he was blueprinting for his build and i found it was an issue on my frame after blueprinting the LCA frame points. It will show up during alignment, the stack of shims on the right UCA will be larger than the stack of shims on the left side to set caster. Almost a 1/4" thicker shims at the rear right point to compensate for the mount being out of place. Just something to check, or fix, when the bare frame is out of the car.
Bob

#1074002 - 05/28/22 09:12 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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The perception of understeer/oversteer can be very tricky. It's ultimately the difference between where we're trying to point the wheels, and the path the tires are actually tracing. We can readily compensate, up to the limit of the traction circle, by turning the steering wheel more (understeer) or less (oversteer) than would be consistent between these two things. And it's nearly impossible to gauge this compensation because our steering wheel doesn't come calibrated in degrees for turning angle.

The only way to be sure about understeer/oversteer without any instrumentation, is to use the increasing-speed constant turning diameter test. I've suggested this a few times on this site but, to the best of my knowledge, the only one curious enough to actually try it has been me. (I didn't report results because I didn't do it with an A/G body.) One big lesson I learned is that what I think is neutral steering is actually generous understeering. It's simply too-thoroughly baked into the design by virtually all OEMs and thus part of our daily driving background noise, so we tend not to notice it, and from the OEM's perspective, for good reason: understeer is safe and avoids lawsuits.

But in auto-crossing where you are accelerating in all directions at one time or another, the best overall compromise to get the fastest time with a front-heavy car with power applied at the rear, is indeed likely to be heavy understeer.

Even so, we have to recognize that in a steady-state cornering regime, it's not the fastest way around a turn because we're not getting maximum grip at the front for the non-Coulombic friction reason I described earlier.

The real solution is to correct the car's miserable weight distribution, but we already knew that.

_____________________


Ron, about the frame: most braces I've seen act to improve the in-plane stiffness of the frame, and not its torsional stiffness about the car's principal axis. That's why they usually yield modest results. The really big improvements will require major surgery, unfortunately. But the two frame reinforcement techniques I cited earlier will do the most good with the least effort, cost, and weight. Good luck.


Last edited by MAP; 05/28/22 11:25 PM.
#1074003 - 05/28/22 11:45 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Originally Posted by mmc427ss
.

Ron if I would have done a body off frame build i would have done the boxing also. But as noted by Mark I have Delrin #1 and #2 body bushing, a 1/2 dozen other braces in the car to help the marriage of the frame and body. Machine to fit urethane body bushing are used at #3 and rearward in the 86. The body to frame connection is very good.

One place to check, repair, that is a potential problem child on these frames is the right side UCA mount welded to the frame. A guy here found this a problem on the frame he was blueprinting for his build and i found it was an issue on my frame after blueprinting the LCA frame points. It will show up during alignment, the stack of shims on the right UCA will be larger than the stack of shims on the left side to set caster. Almost a 1/4" thicker shims at the rear right point to compensate for the mount being out of place. Just something to check, or fix, when the bare frame is out of the car.
Bob




Bob,

I remember that thread now with the error at the right side UCA mount, I will correct any errors for sure. I have two frames, the spare in my garage I will use the front section to back of the front wheels for a partial replacement of the original. I will separate the rails at the factory seams and insert bent chromoly tubing in the factory rails, with double plated supports at high stress areas of the frame. When the 1.500" chromoly tube is welded in it will weld 90 degrees apart with solid weld front to back. That and boxing the center is about it, and maybe a cross member mod to support a rack?? That's my winter project this year. cool

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 05/29/22 12:03 AM.

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#1074004 - 05/29/22 08:19 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Ron, I see your reply is directed to Bob but for the benefit of everyone, a picture would be worth many thousands of words here. I'm having a very tough time envisioning what you're talking about.

Last edited by MAP; 05/29/22 08:20 PM.
#1074005 - 05/29/22 08:25 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Once I start the work I’ll post a couple pics’s when it’s close to being done. It’s nothing special, just hidden support in the frame rails. But it’s a bunch of work.


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#1074007 - 05/29/22 09:09 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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"...hidden support in the frame rails..." says it all. Those rails are puny. They were just an excuse from the factory to connect a decent front subframe and a so-so rear subframe so the whole wobbly thing could run down an assembly line to bolt-up stuff without requiring the presence of the body.

In terms of torsional stiffness, one big, even thin-walled tube has way more of it than some small tubes bunched together. Think of an empty soda can and that will tell you all: it has enormous torsional stiffness in relation to its weight. That's what you want to emulate; just don't get so thin that the tube buckles under torsional stress. Also, chrome-moly steel has more strength, but not more stiffness, than even a low-carbon steel like 1008. Unless you're planning on getting into an accident, there's no point to a high Cr-Mo steel.

Last edited by MAP; 05/29/22 09:45 PM.
#1074014 - 05/30/22 04:35 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I too was told by several chassis tuning experts that adding a huge front sway bar would induce understeer in my car. What I determined after putting it into practical experience is these experts just didn't realize how much more front grip my car had than the rear before adding the huge front bar. All the huge front bar did was bring the car back way closer to neutral than it was prior, not past and toward understeer.

One thing I did have to adjust though was front to rear brake bias and more importantly HOW I applied the brakes on corner entry. The first event with the new bar I had a co-driver driving with me that had never driven the car car before. Both he and I were sliding the inside front tire under braking on corner entry (as the front bar picked up and unloaded the inside front tire a bit). We slowly added rear brake as much as we could before inducing rear wheel hop and backed up our corner entry a bit so that we didn't have to apply the brakes quite as hard at the crucial unloading spot. Once we dialed that in along with corresponding front rebound adjustments to continue to pin the front down as long as needed we were golden. The car was super easy to drive and put down some great times while having a great battle between ourselves for the top time in class that day.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074015 - 05/30/22 08:29 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi Lance,

I think a lot of subtlety is involved here between how we perceive the car is acting and how it's really acting. Again, understeer/oversteer is very difficult to judge subjectively and really needs to be nailed down objectively. "All the huge front bar did was bring the car back way closer to neutral..." How do you know? Ponder carefully. Did you ever run the increasing speed constant diameter turning test?

A few posts back I made a point of saying that, "I was ignoring transient effects." That's because making the front suspension stiffer causes it to reach equilibrium faster in a turn than if the front suspension is softer. This sharper transient steering response strongly aids the impression, but not the reality, of increased front grip. The two phenomena are easily confounded, unfortunately.

Again, we can make a front-heavy. RWD car faster in auto-x by increasing front suspension stiffness and inducing yet more understeer, simply because we maintain better traction balance at the rear between the two tires. That way, one wheel or the other (or both) doesn't (don't) lock up when we get on the throttle or on the brakes. But in so doing, we have decreased the car's maximum speed in a steady-state turn. Sadly, y'all here aren't engineers and/or suffer from a profound lack of curiosity, so none of this has been evaluated beyond auto-x seat-of-pants feel and auto-x lap times. That's scant evidence to build a system of knowledge. So we're left postulating and spinning our wheels in a digital sense.




Last edited by MAP; 05/30/22 08:54 PM.
#1074021 - 05/31/22 03:40 AM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Yesterday before removing the right sway bar arm I miked the pinch crush on the arm, then miked arm with no crush on the pinch end, and then miked again after reinstalling the left arm. .040" crush when tongued to 37 lb. Currently using the 3/8-24 AN365 nylock full size lockuts but bought MS21042 Style B Jetnut as the intended final install locknut. Even though they are small in size they are tensile rated at 160K. The sway bar link ARP 1/2-20 bolts have these Jetnuts installed now, nice nuts.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=MS21042

Currently the sway bar build needs to have arms that don't move on the splines, the focus now is to correct that, whatever that needs to make right. An ARP 3/8-24x3" has a 1.900" grip range, is most likely 180K and gets 45 torqued. May try that route if necessary. Also need to insure it's not a design/construction fault causing the arm to move.


Pulled the left arm off the torsion bar, cleaned the splines with brake clean although they were not greasy or dirty and reinstalled the arm. Will be driving the car a good bit this week to see if it moves again. Both side pinch bolts torqued to 37 lb.

Went over the LCA bushing bolts, 65 lb, shock to LCA bolts to 35.Then with the front wheels off the ground checked to see how much clearance between the tire sidewall and the sway bar arm when turned full lock left and right. Had to slot the adjustable spindle stops a little more to insure about 1/8" clearance at full lock.

As mention more than a year ago when this project was getting some brain work the fat front tires and a big fat factory location sway bar would want to use the same space when the tires are turned, near full lock. Installing any three piece adjustable rate would require smaller front tires, OR, a very large turning radius.
This the primary reason to move the torsion bar rearward 5 /3/4" and "let" it into the frame. Wanted the biggest, fattest tires i could stuff safely under the car, and not touch anything, anytime.
Rarely are we ever at full lock. And I believe at full droop the tires are the closest they can get to the sway bar arms, more so than full lock at ride height.

Next Sat is that autox, not a lot of prep needed, tire pressure and shock setup/adjustment is about it. Mostly the mental side needs the most work. Kinda like drag racing, you know the first couple runs are throw away. Should get 4 runs in the morning and 4 in the afternoon and my son a like amount. Weather forecast for Sat is promising, not to hot and dry. Will be taking a sprayer this time for the tires, just in case.

As far as the engineering/design side of the polishing the turd syndrome I never expect to make the car into a challenger to beat the Nuremberg times the new ILE Camaro laid down. That car is a purpose built race car that you can buy off the show room floor with only a need to write a check. Anyboby with the cash can get one. The other day at the gas station a black Audi SQ8 with pizza pan size rotors was on the other side of the island, twin turbo V8, AWD. The guy driving had a tie on and was older than me. He drives it because he can afford it, nice car though. Oh, he did ask if my 86 was a Grand National.

Point is I choose to do what I do to this 60+ year old design, the turd, because as much as someone says something does or doesn't work the only way to tell is see for yourself. I think we would all like to snap our fingers and have the performance on every level as a lot of the new stuff. I did like that Audi, But stuck trying to make something hopefully better. I do it because i want to and, because I can. The one thing I find hardest to deal with about the entire car project spectrum is the lack of good info and true hands on info. I'm a reader, a sucker for info, my library is littered with how to books. thousands of bookmarked old websites with a tidbit of info. But still left with just advice and stuff you read.
Had a birthday a month ago, 71, running out of time on projects. This sway bar was rather long and arduous. The good, available brain cells are depleted a little more. I used to laugh at those old people when they were forgetful. Not any more.

On the list that didn't get done this past down time season was taking the 4.11s out and reinstalling the 3.73 back in the 8 1/2". Stupid me needed a racer watching us make runs last year to finally tell us we were jerks. We were buzzing the engine in 2nd gear through the course, me minding the rpms, my son banging it off the rev limiter at 6200. The racer said run it in 3rd, we both got instantly faster. 4.11s out, back to the 3.73s for a 10 % rpm drop in 2nd gear, and a 10% increase in course possible mph. That not being done we will leave the start in 2nd, shift 3rd prior to the first turn and roll 3rd the whole way.

Once i get past this week and have seat time at the autox I will critique this project. Already a 1/2 dozen little changes I would make to the fabrication and production of the pieces. There must be a couple hundred pic taken of all the different phases, will try to put together a couple that have the best overview of the install and have them posted.
Bob

#1074024 - 05/31/22 08:21 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi Bob,

I never want to come across as minimizing your accomplishments (ditto with Lance.) But since others are reading here, I'm trying to broaden horizons by encouraging us to think outside of the box. For that broader audience, I'm generally trying to say that at some point you give up polishing the turd, and you swap the turd for something more worthy of achieving maximum performance. In the long term, you can save money, time, and effort, and get better results that way. The wisdom is in knowing when to ditch the turd. Usually, the more ambitious the performance goals, the earlier one ditches the turd.

In my view, you and Lance have gotten the most out of the turd GM called the MCSS when the bulk of engineering thinking that went into creating it happened in the early-mid '60s. Further advancements will only yield ever-diminishing returns in relation to cost and effort, and significant advancements at this point will only happen by swapping the turd.

Anyway, very much look forward to hearing about further driving impressions.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 05/31/22 10:45 PM.
#1074025 - 05/31/22 10:57 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Back when these cars were new they were desirable, many folks compliment on my 86. In comparison of todays technology, yes the G body will be a polished turd in some regard. But it's still a good looking car IMO.

I had the largest chevy dealer in the US call a month ago with two allocations for 2023 Camaro's, I took one new order with a early June production date. cool When I get it I'll run Lance, when he beats me we can rest assured the G body is king. And my car is a " Check book " hot rod that anybody can buy poke. You know what's crazy? Folks told me that when the Monte was new and now it will be the second full restoration it has had over the last 36 years and a 112K miles. Man I hope I don't have to work on the new check book car when I'm 80... laugh

Oh yeah... Truck engine... lmao

Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/01/22 12:08 AM.

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#1074030 - 06/01/22 01:14 AM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi 1 Slow SS - I agree! When I say "swap the turd," I don't mean swap the whole car, just those major subassemblies that stand too strongly in the way of progress.

#1074032 - 06/01/22 03:39 AM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: MAP]  
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Originally Posted by MAP
Hi 1 Slow SS - I agree! When I say "swap the turd," I don't mean swap the whole car, just those major subassemblies that stand too strongly in the way of progress.


Sadly its probably more cost effective to swap the whole car than to Frankenstein major subassemblies. You can buy a lot of different nice used complete cars well below the price of a aftermarket G body frame. Sometimes progress is not all its cracked up to be either.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1074033 - 06/01/22 03:55 AM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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That's probably true, but a choice at that top level is probably made more from sentiment than cold logic. For me, MCSSs are good-lucking cars that were popular at a time that I fondly recall in my earlier days.

Last edited by MAP; 06/01/22 06:25 AM.
#1074037 - 06/01/22 01:23 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hey Ron, which version of the Camaro did you get? I need to know what I'm up against? laugh


Lance
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#1074045 - 06/02/22 01:14 AM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: SSLance]  
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Originally Posted by SSLance
Hey Ron, which version of the Camaro did you get? I need to know what I'm up against? laugh



Hey Lance,

It's a base LT1 6 speed car with a RS package, technology package, performance fresh air intake and exhaust. The dealer said it should be 475 HP with the exhaust and fresh air packages. I was close to ordering the ZL1 but I can't justify 80K for a car to sit in my garage because I'm afraid to use it. This one I ordered with my employee discount will be south of 40K out the door.


Mark,

I know your angle, I was just having some fun. Honestly your poking here is the reason I will tube my stock frame. After talking with a buddy that has done this mod to a G body Olds 442, I know it will bring major benefits.

Regards,
Ron



Last edited by 1 Slow SS; 06/02/22 01:21 AM.

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#1074047 - 06/02/22 05:19 AM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi Ron,

If you're tubing the side rails, it would be nearly impossible for me to overstate that maximizing the diameter of such a tube will pay huge dividends. For a hollow tube with constant wall thickness, its torsional stiffness goes as diameter cubed. But its mass goes only as diameter to the first power. Also, one large tube wins over multiple small tubes, even if they are joined rigidly along their lengths. Again, remember the soda can analogy. And don't forget the A-pillar brace, but use solid bushings in #1 and #2 positions.

If you go this route I suspect you'll be gobsmacked with the results.


Last edited by MAP; 06/02/22 05:31 AM.
#1074048 - 06/02/22 05:24 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Had the car out again yesterday, maybe 10 miles of "easy" driving, just wanted to log some miles to see if the bar arm slid on the splines and that seemed to be OK for now.
Being ARP bolts are so hard to find right now, Summit was the only place that had ARP 3/8"-24 x 3" bolts so i ordered them the other day. The pinch bolts on the arm now are 120K and the ARP are 180K and will allow me to crank up the torque to 45.
Anymore you need to buy stuff when you see it available.
A friend just got back from picking up his 455+ Olds street/strip engine from Rocket Racing, https://rocketracingperformance.com/ , it took 2 years to get that build done. Owner of Rocket says he has several engine sitting because he can't get ARP bolts.

Near 90 degrees yesterday and find it's now time to revisit the A/C to dial in the dash vent temp. The A/C refresh project last Fall ran out of hot days last year and put an end to dialing in the A/C system. Now time to put the pressure and temp gauges back on the system and dial in the Super Heat.

Just looked at the entry list for Sat autox, 120 entries in the AM group,10 in CAM T showing, wow, should be an interesting day. Running in the PM group is only 83 cars, 9 in CAM T.
Last year being we ran the car with two drivers I was the 2nd car out in the AM morning runs. I was hoping to be picking up cones before running this time, you learn a lot by watching other cars before it's your turn to kill cones. My daughter's family may be there to watch my son and I beat on the car.
Last time Jason had seat time in the car was our Oct autox event, need to get him in the car tonight or tomorrow to reacquaint him.
Bob

#1074049 - 06/02/22 06:23 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Good luck Bob!


Lance
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#1074050 - 06/02/22 09:17 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hi Bob - ^2!!
Btw, if the arms ever slide on the splines, and by "slide" I assume rotationally, then that interface will be history. At that point you might as well weld the arms to the tube.

Also btw, I don't know if there's enough room left on your arms for a second bolt right next to the first, but if so, you can double the clamping force. Just don't put a second bolt on the side of the torsion bar opposite the first, because I think it will excessively weaken the arm.

Last edited by MAP; 06/02/22 09:28 PM.
#1074051 - 06/03/22 02:56 AM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Arms did not rotate on the spline, it moved, slid outward on the spline about 1/8" on just the left side arm.

The arms are 3/4" thick, x 2" wide, with a 3/8" pinch bolt hole, no room for a second bolt to be drilled and placed. Agreed that adding a second bolt on the arm's link side of the spline could lead to failure of the arm. Another option would be to open the hole up a little and install a slightly larger bolt. An ARP 10 mm X1.50 X 80 mm could be installed, grip OD .197" fatter and 54 lb torque.

No way I'd weld the arms to the bar. One of the goals of this bar build was the new bar, arms and links could be removed and the old 36 mm factory type bar could be just bolted back in.
Another goal was the rate of the bar could be changed to anything of lesser than 1200 rate by just reducing the diameter of the torsion bar.
Both of those goals were achieved and necessary goals before the whole bar project was started.

Hoping the pinch bolt issues is already resolved but won't know that until the bar get beat upon this Sat.
Tomorrow is already Fri, no road time on the car today, it was a rainy day.

Lance, any shock settings to start the day? The DA up front will get like 12-12 to start. The TA shocks in the rear is a guessing game. Thinking on the 16 scale 3 on the low and high speed compression and 6 on the rebound. Tires street is 32-32 psi right now and will start there and watch pressures after each run. Will spray if necessary, now that i know where to get water from at the event.
Bob

#1074053 - 06/03/22 09:03 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I ran my RT660s at 33F/30R...watch the wear on the sides, you want to be scrubbing the little triangles a little but not wiping them off the tire. Bleed built up pressure off after every run, they'll stabilize after 4-5 runs. If you have a break for lunch and plan on running afternoon sessions also, be prepared to air them back up after they sit for a while. Also might need air in them for the ride home.

Shocks... For the rear, put high and low speed compression at 0, as soft as they'll go. I'd put rear rebound in the middle, then start adding rear rebound until it wheel hops the rears under braking. Rebound = grip...until you go to far.

For the front, I'd have the compression pretty stiff. I run mine on full stiff most of the time and mine have way more valving than yours. The rebound setting all depends on when the fronts release, driving style, and course setup. If you want the front pinned down more for certain corners, stiffen rebound. You'll notice this if the front starts pushing mid turn. Only if it's loose on corner exit will you want to soften rebound...to get the weight to transfer to the rear quicker. Again, rebound = grip...until you go too far.

Good luck! Send me the link to live timing if\when you get it... I'll be around all day tomorrow if you want to call for a tuning question.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074054 - 06/03/22 09:07 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,656
SSLance Offline
10+ Year
SSLance  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,656
Peoria, AZ
After each run, put your palm on the tread of each tire...inside\middle\outside...and feel temperature change. If centers are way hotter...they have too much air pressure. If inners or outers are way hotter...they don't have enough. Infrared or temp probe are great for this but a quick feel of the hand right after a run will get you pretty close. If they are hot to the touch, spray them once after the run...that should cool them down. If they are REALLY hot...keep spraying until they cool down.

By feeling each tire, you'll also be able to tell which tire(s) the course is working the hardest. Pay attention to that and use that info to help adjust shocks.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1074055 - 06/03/22 09:49 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,449
MAP Online content
15+ Year
MAP  Online Content
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,449
Yuma, AZ
Read the context of where I mentioned welding: if that interface had shorn, then welding would have saved an otherwise useless sway bar.

Last edited by MAP; 06/03/22 09:55 PM.
#1074057 - 06/04/22 03:28 PM Re: Front sway bar project [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 726
88ssBrent Online content
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88ssBrent  Online Content
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 726
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Good luck today, Bob!

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