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#1065776 - 03/30/20 08:01 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: May 2007
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Buick Runner Offline
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Dharma station 1 the Hydra
The dwell shoud hover around 30 degrees at idle in drive. 30 degrees is the mean, with 20 and 40 degrees being the first standard deviations, 10 and 50 the second standard deviations, 0 and 60 the third standard deviations. Most of the observed measurements should be within the first standard deviations around the mean, ( within the 20 to 40 degree marks).


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1065786 - 03/31/20 04:20 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Jan 2000
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mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
OK, finally found my notes from when I was playing with the CCC almost 25 years ago. First can I assume you have no codes? The VSS code 24 you had would be because you have no signal from that circuit. The old speedo had the VSS signal, 2000 pulse per mile, generated there by the speedo. The new speedo/cluster needs another source to produce that signal. So you will always get a code 24. If no other codes appear then it's safe to say all the sensors are within range and functioning. Here from the notes I have is what you should see on the Brainmaster for the relevant selection on the scanner.

BATTERY voltage would be close to 12vdc IGN off, 14 give or take idling.
BARO should be about 4.5-4.7 vdc depending on how high above sea level but should be a steady, same voltage all the time.
COOLANT Should read about about 45 C when engine is cold. Should rise to about 90C when engine is at normal operating temp. Should go into closed loop at about 50 and stay in closed loop. A fault Coolant sensor that doesn't get to temp may cause the ECM to cycle between OPEN and CLOSED loop.
VAC Voltage should be low at idle, about .56 vdc and increase at throttle is opened. But at WOT generally less than 4.0 volts. Remember most all the sensor are feed only 5.0 volts from the CCC system.
TPS At idle voltage from the TPS should be in the .50 vdc neighborhood. It will increase as throttle is opened but again will max out to less than 4 vdc at WOT
O2 sensor. the output from the O2 to the ECM is from .100 to 1.0 volts. Generally when the engine is running it will show a deviation from being lean, .300, to rich .800 vdc as the car is being driven. Of course increasing and decreasing engine speed and load will cause that .300 to .800 to be changing all the time, bouncing up and down.
The ECM is in a battle with all the sensors to try and maintain a 14.7 Air/Fuel ratio all the time except when the engine is under heavy throttle as in the secondaries start to flow. Because the VAC and TPS are also showing WOT the ECM commands the Mixture Control Solenoid to go full rich for primary enrichment. Now we get to he heart of the fuel side on the CCC, the MC solenoid and it's setting. This is an area that people tinker with and screw up. Four setting, that ultimately effect the DWELL readings, the AIR BLEED VALVE, the IDLE MIXTURE SCREWS. the LEAN STOP and the RICH STOP. All are important to getting the DWELL setting dialed in for max economy and performance. The LEAN and RICH stops control how high and low the primary rods will travel in the jet and are set with gauges to correct specs when the carb is apart.Sometimes when a tech rebuild they just guess at the settings, can cause problems later when trying to dial in the DWELL.

Assuming the engine has no vac leaks and is healthy, all sensors are outputting within their correct parameters, engine is hot, timing is correct, ECM says closed loop, the DWELL can then be checked and reset. A ball park setting for the IDLE MIXTURE SCREWS would be about three turns equally on each screw. The IDLE AIR BLEED has a gauge that is used to set it's depth when the carb is rebuilt. It's adjusted up or down as one to tweak the DWELL of the M/C. Looking at the threads in the airhorn for the IDLE BLEED count how many visible threads are showing when the Bleed is screwed in. Somewhere between 4 and 7 threads down would be normal.

When the engine is started and warming up the ECM is in open loop. The DWELL will be a fixed 32 and not varying in open loop/.
Then once the engine is up to operating temp the ECM will go into closed loop and the DWELL will be varying.

To set DWELL on a healthy engine it's a balancing act between the Bleeder and Idle Mixture Screws.The number I remember for DWELL should be varying constantly between 28 and 32 at hot idle if the MC is adjusted correctly. If you look at the O2 output voltage and it goes lean, say .300 the ECM commands the MC to richen, the DWELL will be seen as a low number, say 10. When the O2 shows rich, say .700 the DWELL will go lean, maybe 40 or so. It's a constant back and forth between the O2 and DWELL trying to maintain that 14.7 A/F. O2 shows lean the ECM commands richen, and visa-versa. But the trick is to get that 28-32 DWELL at idle in closed loop.

Out of time for now.
But here's a good manual to learn about the CCC carb and how to adjust it. Yes it's for the 2bl Dual Jet carb but it is identical to the primary side of the CCC Qjet.
Read from page 10 to 15 of that PDF and you will have a better understanding of setting up a CCC carb.
http://oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Carbs/Rochester/DualJet/E2M/service/1980DualJetE2M.pdf
Bob

#1065829 - 04/03/20 06:05 AM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 196
RDKLXPRS Offline
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RDKLXPRS  Offline
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Lexington, NC; Daytona Beach, ...
Buickrunner thanks for your response. That makes the 10-50 range easier to read.

mmc427ss, sorry I cut the last post off midway, not even sure what else I was going to say, I was literally walking out the door to a funeral. Thank you for the manual for the CCC carb, I will compare that to what I have been using. What I did do today was reset the ECM and monitor all the parameters during certain conditions. I know not all the info is needed but I wanted to include everything I could.

EDIT: Sorry the table kind of turned into a mess after I posted it. It was nice and spaced out.

| Open loop | Closed Loop |
Parameter | Idle | Idle | Cruise |
Battery (v) | 13.7 | 13.7 | 14 |
Baro (v) | 4.58 | 4.58 | 4.58 |
Coolant (C) | 15C | 65C | 85C |
Dwell | 35 | 35-39 | 35 |
EGR% | 0% | 61% | 61-100% | - varying with load
Exhaust Gas | Rich | R-L | R-L | - Odd thing with this is that my standalone A/F gauge actually says the mixture is lean at Idle during open loop. ECM o2 is in Left header, autometer o2 is in right header.
Gear switch | 4-Gr | 4-Gr | 4-Gr |
MAP/VAC (v) | 4.54 | 4.38 | 3v (1.8-4.3v) | - varying at cruise
TPS (v) | .60 | .60 | 1.4 | - this was at .52 yesterday at idle but I had to bump the idle up, may need to bring the tps back down
O2 (v) | .865 | .2-.9 | .1 - .9 |
P/N Switch | OFF | OFF | OFF |
Prom ID | 0741 | 0741 | 0741 |
TCC SOL | OFF | OFF | OFF |
Trouble Code| NONE | 24 | 24 | - Only code so far on this reset


I think I am going to spend tomorrow trying to find a vacuum leak, starting by unhooking and plugging everything one at a time.
I think I need to take the closed loop function out and do this on the open loop predetermined settings.

Thanks









Last edited by RDKLXPRS; 04/03/20 06:09 AM. Reason: Edit

[Linked Image]
1986 MONTE CARLO SS 5.7L 440,000 mi.
https://www.facebook.com/Bakersprsprt
#1065836 - 04/04/20 12:44 AM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 196
RDKLXPRS Offline
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RDKLXPRS  Offline
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Posts: 196
Lexington, NC; Daytona Beach, ...
Well today I found my vacuum canister cracked, letting air straight into the manifold. I'll pick up a new one tomorrow and resist the carb settings.


[Linked Image]
1986 MONTE CARLO SS 5.7L 440,000 mi.
https://www.facebook.com/Bakersprsprt
#1065837 - 04/04/20 01:00 AM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Dec 1999
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86ttop Offline
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86ttop  Offline
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Brooksville, Fl
Idle dwell, fully up to temp should vary between 28-30 on the 6 cyl scale,looks like you are getting there, good luck


Leo Paugh
It's not an attitude, it's just the way I am.
POW*MIA
You are not forgotten
If things improve with age, I must be approaching magnificent. thumbs
#1065850 - 04/05/20 06:27 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 196
RDKLXPRS Offline
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RDKLXPRS  Offline
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Posts: 196
Lexington, NC; Daytona Beach, ...
Well son of a B#$%!. All this over a cracked vacuum canister. replaced and car ran perfect. I might have some basic tuning to do but I think its fixed.


[Linked Image]
1986 MONTE CARLO SS 5.7L 440,000 mi.
https://www.facebook.com/Bakersprsprt
#1065856 - 04/06/20 01:39 AM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,755
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
OUCH.

Yep now you need to check base timing. Next set the dwell so it's varying 28-32 in closed loop at idle. Check to make sure ECM while idling isn't going closed then open. O2 cooling off if headers and not a heated O2 the cause. The Brainmaster readings you should log. If you have a problem down the road you plug it in and look at all the reading to compare.
Then get an 079 with Dylan's EGR delete PROM. The 079 is still sitting here.
Bob

#1065858 - 04/06/20 01:09 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Apr 2011
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
Glad you found it!


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1065859 - 04/06/20 01:24 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,176
SSLance Offline
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SSLance  Offline
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Peoria, AZ
Nice work!!


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1065893 - 04/08/20 10:03 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Aug 2010
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RDKLXPRS Offline
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RDKLXPRS  Offline
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Lexington, NC; Daytona Beach, ...
Though last night when I cranked the car at work to come home while it was obviously in open loop the autometer a/f was still registering as lean. And on the way home I beat it a little bit and it felt like the secondaries were still fluttering.


[Linked Image]
1986 MONTE CARLO SS 5.7L 440,000 mi.
https://www.facebook.com/Bakersprsprt
#1065915 - 04/10/20 05:16 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Jun 2004
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Bitflipper Offline
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Bitflipper  Offline
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Las Vegas, NV
Since I'm WFH due to the pandemic, I just checked my box of EPROMs. There are 4 left. And that's if they all check out good (I had a couple that didn't hold their burn). After that either the price has to go up sharply or I have to pack it in. The price these vintage TMS2532-JL EPROMs are now commanding is astounding!


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#1065922 - 04/11/20 02:51 AM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Jan 2000
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mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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Posts: 4,755
Pottstown, Pa
I picked up a box at the P.O. that fits the 079 ECM this week.
Bob

#1065928 - 04/11/20 05:41 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 344
Bitflipper Offline
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Bitflipper  Offline
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Las Vegas, NV
P.O.? Anyway, you looking to sell them or are you going to burn them yourself?


[Linked Image]
#1065929 - 04/11/20 07:02 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 4,755
mmc427ss Offline
20+ Year
mmc427ss  Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
Post Office.

Nope don't burn PROMs. Way back when we all pretty much ran that ECM on CCC I collected 079 ECMs when I saw one in the junk yards. 87-88 G-body, Camaro and Caprice all used them. Had sold a few over the years. As you said earlier they don't usually fail, can get destroyed by water or throwing them across the room.

I have an 079 with the a factory ZZ4 PROM still in the kick panel of my car, not functioning anymore but able to go back into service in 2 hours of reinstalling carb and dist. The complete harness, sensors still installed on the 427 SBC. Always said someday I would put the CCC back in service just to see how it would run the present engine again. When that engine first went in 13 years ago it was running CCC for a few months until going back to old school. It ran fine.
Bob

#1066326 - 05/07/20 12:03 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
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RDKLXPRS Offline
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Lexington, NC; Daytona Beach, ...
It's been a few weeks but I have a few questions returning to this topic. What are the base values for the ecm in open loop? They should be a preset tune that doesn't change correct?

Quick update, I was able to make a relative gauge to rest the air bleed valve back to a bench setting. The idle screws are 3 turns out and the tps is set at about.52. Still hard to cold start have to pump the gas a lot, will fire and run and die about twice before it will fire and keep running. Open loop warm up seems to be running lean according to my a/fr. And I still have a flat spot on the low end accelerator pedal. Its running just good enough to get from A to B but it's not very fun doing it. I do occasionally get a whistling noise from somewhere under the hood when like backing out of the drive way and for a few seconds after that. No idea if that's helpful or what it is besides obviously air getting sucked in somewhere.

If there's any good news I'm waiting to take my newborn home today in the SS. Same one that took me home from the hospital 30 years ago.

Last edited by RDKLXPRS; 05/07/20 12:16 PM.

[Linked Image]
1986 MONTE CARLO SS 5.7L 440,000 mi.
https://www.facebook.com/Bakersprsprt
#1066327 - 05/07/20 12:56 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Apr 2011
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
Well that IS good news. Congrats!


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1066337 - 05/08/20 09:26 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,821
Buick Runner Offline
10+ Year
Buick Runner  Offline
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Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,821
Dharma station 1 the Hydra
Having the throttle valves too far closed at idle will cause a off idle stumble. Too far open will cause main nozzle drip at idle.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1066564 - Yesterday at 11:23 PM Re: My Monte has an Upper Respiratory Infection [Re: RDKLXPRS]  
Joined: Oct 2007
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cozwurth Offline
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Franklin, VA
Originally Posted by RDKLXPRS
It's been a few weeks but I have a few questions returning to this topic. What are the base values for the ecm in open loop? They should be a preset tune that doesn't change correct?

Quick update, I was able to make a relative gauge to rest the air bleed valve back to a bench setting. The idle screws are 3 turns out and the tps is set at about.52. Still hard to cold start have to pump the gas a lot, will fire and run and die about twice before it will fire and keep running. Open loop warm up seems to be running lean according to my a/fr. And I still have a flat spot on the low end accelerator pedal. Its running just good enough to get from A to B but it's not very fun doing it. I do occasionally get a whistling noise from somewhere under the hood when like backing out of the drive way and for a few seconds after that. No idea if that's helpful or what it is besides obviously air getting sucked in somewhere.

If there's any good news I'm waiting to take my newborn home today in the SS. Same one that took me home from the hospital 30 years ago.


That's awesome news! I was brought home in the '70 SS396 Chevelle that I am working on now. Brought my oldest home from the hospital in it, too.

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