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#1065842 - 04/04/20 11:49 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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While being pretty much confined to quarters the past couple weeks I did find time to get the front end alignment dialed in, well at least the caster/camber. Now the left is -1.25 and +9.4, the right side is bumped up a little and -1.2 and a +9.5, I'm happy with those numbers. Wanted a little more right caster and close to the same camber left and right. Didn't touch the shims on the left side as I was happy with those numbers. When I check the camber at 20 degrees in and out the gains side to side are almost identical which is good. Typically 3.25 to 3.5 range, that would be a 2 to 2.25 gain at 20 degrees. When you crank the wheel to full lock those number keep climbing with gains 3 and over. Pretty cool. And best of all when you corner the car it's amazing how good the front drives, huge improvement for a nose heavy porker. But that's why this post is supposed to be about rear springs, front end is good.

To set toe a 1950s old school toe gauge was found in my daughter's garage when she bought the house, cool. A Vette guy played with his toys in that garage for years. When dad passed his teenage son got a dumpster and cleaned out the garage before I got there. Who knows what else was in the bottom of that dumpster, found chrome trim years later stuffed in a corner of the roof.
In order to measure at the true front and rear center of the tire at the wheel hub height a 5" extension was welded onto the toe gauge's pointers. The front sway bar and scattershield get in the way of measuring at the correct height. The extensions makes it a one man job to measure now. Also the BFG Comp 2 tires have a definite groove to measure off of, easy-peasy as they say.

The toe out is 1/4", more than my liking. Will need to drive the car and see if the steering wheel is still a tad left low. Then correct via toe adjustment to get 3/16" toe out. Adding a a little caster and camber to the right may have corrected the low left wheel, the PA road crown syndrome. Toe setting is important but the easiest part of the alignment to dial in.

Can honestly say the car has about 4K miles and 2 years on the previous alignment specs. With a fat 255/50x16 tire running -1.0 to -1.2 camber and toe out 1/16-1/4" the tread looks great, no signs of not liking all the toe out or the camber. Very surprised at that. But tire rotation front to rear is done often which helps the cause, helps to have the same tire/wheel front to rear. Driving an average of 2K a year new tires come when the rubber is no longer good, as in aged, not on how much is left. The previous set of KDWs met that death, hard rubber form age. And as we know street tires are at their best at 1/2 tread depth, so these tires may be the autox tires for this year, if that ever happens to get re scheduled.

Buying the new rear Viking triple adjustable shocks is on hold for just a little while yet. My son has a screen printing business, it a little slow right now, helping him keep his nose above the water. Spring kid's sports are now played on tablets. Hoping that picks up soon and we get past this crisis,

Lance, send some pics of the F150.
Bob

#1065847 - 04/05/20 02:12 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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Pack a lunch... laugh

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/129476-95-F-150-track-ready-street-beast

Mid way thru the build, I'll admit I wondered if Sean would ever finish it up and I have to say, he followed thru way past my expectations. Hes been posting driving videos on Instagram, seems hes really enjoying bombing that truck around town last week or so.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1065853 - 04/06/20 12:50 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Thanks. Got my chores for the day done, will start at the beginning and read through the build.

Wow 6 hours later and 21 pages, outside the box and outside the garage. Stamina is the first thing that comes to mind, there are few that could do what he did in a relatively short period of time, in the yard!

When he put the fender on, I lost my breathe, didn't expect that, and he was, not happy. Some would have thrown the whole project over the fence. He shrugged it off and fixed the problem, rather quickly.

I've seen his post listed on PT but didn't look into it, it was a Ford build, sorry Sean. Will stay tuned now.
My son's daily is a 95 F150 4x4, ain't that coincidental.

One other thing on his build I was most interested in was how he cut and welded the steering arms for the spindle to get more Ackerman. The thought of cutting and welding the arm intrigues me. I have explored the heating and bending method on the B spindle, it would be an involved process, but viable. Forged steel spindles are not recommended to go the heat and bend route, so everyone says. Just can't commit to going that route on the cherry spindles I have on the car. So I picked a another spare set of B spindles to play with. More Ackerman for the 86 would be a good thing.

When I modified the steering centerlink to drop the inner tie rod I went the same route as Sean with his arms, many passes with the TIG to fill from all sides. Center link has been in the car for 10 years now. I was hoping to see Sean test those steering arms. Now they're in his scrap pile.

Lance, nice shop by the way.
Bob

#1065857 - 04/06/20 01:57 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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I really like his third design on the front suspension, its REALLY nice and should work very well. The IRS install is pretty sweet as well, hes a very good fabricator and has great vision.

He is in the process of moving to a new place this week, hence the lack of updates. He gas been driving the wheels off it though, even using it to move some things. #Streettruck


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1065873 - 04/07/20 09:13 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Almost done with the alignment, just finishing up the toe. Made a full turn in on the right which moved it near 0 toe, it was 1/4" toed out, steering wheel was a tad low left, now better but not yet. A quick test trip up the road and then back for a 1/2 turn toe out on the left side, now about 1/8" toed out.
Steering wheel is level on these back roads but will get the car out at 60 on the flat 4 lane to know if I'm happy.

Now back in the shop with a little more time to kill jacked the front tires off the ground and chalked the centers, scribed a line with my Starrett 18" height gauge. Always wondered what i could use that expensive tool for, worked great, got it for free. Looking on Ebay a cheap tire scriber is 40 buck, a nice one 80. Not.
Never had the real needed to do the scribe method before but it's really the way to go. With the modified toe gauge I have accurate readings can be read at wheel center.
WAY back when I was a kid Rusty, the local Bear Alignment shop owner, would chalk and scribe the tire, and that was the high tech way back then. Now we do it with a processor.

So once i put the car back on the ground, rolled it several times, and jumped on the front fenders several times to get back to ride height, toe out was 1/8". Took it out for a longer drive around the block, Happy with the steering wheel, should be at 1/8" toe out. Will chalk and check again just to verify. Mostly because when I drove out of the shop with chalked tires two 1" wide, parallel, white lines ran 220' up the drive to the street, I need to do that again.
Having a hard time entertaining myself.

Also stopped a my local alignment guy's shop to schedule my Astro inspections. He's been slow in the afternoons and i can get the 86 on his almost brand new state of the art four wheel rack. The good thing is he sets it up and I do the work, he leaves me alone. Several things I can do, see if his caster, camber and toe number match mine. I won't make any changes there on his rack. But I will tweak the trust angle to see if I can get it dead on 0. Will be able to verify driveline angles using the Intercomp angle gauge, much easier when you can stand under the car. Should be able to do a bump check from ride height to 4" droop using the lift in the center of the rack. Lift the front 1" at a time and log the toe change. It's difficult to compress the front suspension on a rack, you need 2000 lbs of pull down to get a little over an inch of compression. This is like the third time I've been on a fancy rack to watch or set toe. First time was when I installed the modified certerlink to improve bumpsteer, that was a success. Last time was after I change all the LCA points and wanted to verify my alignment with what his computer said. I only adjusted the toe and tweaked the thrust that day, everything else was fine.

Hoping to sneak the car out to his rack next week, needing to move on to the next project. New back door for the house.
Bob

#1065874 - 04/07/20 09:40 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Some of the fastest race cars I have worked on used the simplest tools. Tire scribe was a nail in a 2x4, toe gauge was one of these , well actually a copy. Set it on the front of the tire, then measure the difference at the back of the tires.

A guy my dad grew up with is in the dirt late model HoF, 500 feature wins. No digital scales just 4 grain scales. Roll on roll off, repeat.


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1065903 - 04/09/20 04:59 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Today had several hours to kill at the shop, Checked the toe again, 1/8" out and went for a 10 miler out to the 4 lane, good up to 80, happy with the steering wheel being level, pulled the temporary tape off the center line of the wheel.

Back in the shop jacked the car up in front and went over the toe adjustments to insure the inner and outer weren't in bind and centered travel. In doing this each side was added a little toe out equally. Have seen many alignments done and always bothers me when I see that not done and the inner-outers are almost in bind just because the numbers are good.

While jacked up chalked and scribed tires again. Settle the car, AGAIN, gotta love those shocks. Toe out is now 5/32", great. Done, almost.
Raised the car 1" at a time and checked bump in droop, Wow they toed out less than an 1/8" trough 2-3" droop and at full droop total toe out was 5/16". The car really never sees much more than max of 3" droop. From when the car was just another B spindle G-body with terrible droop total toe in was at over 1" at full droop. It's now toeing out max of 5/16" and much less and that's good in my book. A little toe out added in droop should help the inside tire.

While up in the air went over all the steering, still nice and tight everywhere, it pays to grease them often with Valvoline Synthetic, and it doesn't leach oils like some of the others quality lubes do, Mobil 1 red chassis sucks for that. Wiped everything down under the car and did the leak visuals. The coolant system leak I had with the Xerox GO5 is gone now that I switched to the Peak Lifetime. The leak at the rear main is still a annoyance, but it has been for 13 years and using Mobil 1, you live with it. The undercarriage is ready for a trip now to the alignment rack.

Some time left and dug out the old G and extra B spindles I have. Stopped at my TIG guys last night to talk about welding them, he bailed on the idea. He said they should be welded in a furnace in order to get a good weld penetration, The huge mass in the cross section where the weld would be would require a lot of heat to maintain a 300-400 degree temp in the welding area. The amount of heat in the area and making numerous passes to fill the cut would be time consuming and HOT!
So heating and bending, cutting and welding options don't look good. Now exploring relocating the tapered hole outboard about 3/16" using the existing material that is there. Heating the very end to 400 wouldn't be anything like trying to heat the fat middle of the arm. While hot TIG weld the tapered outer tie rod hole closed, then drill and ream a new hole outboard. Good thing I have a junk B spindle to play with. This Ackerman project has been on the back burner for years, wonder why.

Next week should find time to get on the computer rack, then can say done with front end for now. Back to the rear suspension and new shocks.
Bob



Last edited by mmc427ss; 04/09/20 05:02 AM.
#1065908 - 04/09/20 03:45 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Maybe a switch to the 3 piece dirt modified metric spindles?

Ramey has done some playing with them for various G bodies.


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1065924 - 04/11/20 06:48 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Have got a little sidetracked from the rear re-spring with the front end alignment. And now sidetracked again chasing Ackermann and spindles mods.

Changing to a metric spindle would be a waste of the money already spent on the car's front end/brakes with nothing to gain but possible a different arm. Made a call and talked to Dave at this website. Saw his post a few months ago on Protouring.com about his new spindle he had made.
http://pro-touringf-body.com/index.html

Twenty years ago when the terrible bump of the B spindle swap into the G, and A for that matter, was the primary problem with that spindle I talked to Doug at Global West. Global West and Hotchkis were the players back then in the tall spindle advantages over stock spindle and small brakes. Most of the now famous suspension parts builders were still playing in small garages back then. My question to Doug was why don't you make a tall spindle to fit the G and A and fix the steering arm geometry. You can buy a set of drop spindles for about any car for cheap. How much trouble can it be to get a spindle made. Yep, to much trouble and expense to have spindles built for a niche market. It was years later that the first edition AFX spindle showed up. Now it's 20 years later and someone may have made a spindle for a G-body that may be a cheap upgrade from the tall ball joint and stock spindle being done.

After talking with Dave interestingly the only difference between my B spindle and his new spindle is the steering arm. I need to compare the steering arm measurements he gave me to the B spindle laying on the bench to see what he has done there. He says the outer tie rod location was moved outboard 3/8", seems like a lot.
But at $389 a pair they are a bargain if they would fix the Ackerman problem with the B spindle in my car. Dave's business is in the process of moving, and we all know how hard it is to do anything right now. I'll call him again in a few weeks and see if his skid of new spindles is in his shop. Currently a skid full are sitting in a factory warehouse in Chitown, not in Wuhan.

Way to nasty outside today, even a flurry or two, so did some measuring on the G and B spindles. Had done these same measurement years ago when I made a bump correction but needed to do it all over again so I'm smarter when I call Dave back for more exact info on his spindle. It's almost to the point where I need to have a set of his spindle on the bench so compare side by side with my current B spindle. Hmmmm. Another phone call next week.

One thing that bothers me is if a different steering arm is achieved then it has to installed in the car. That's not a big deal but it's the pulling it all apart several times to do realignment, then going through the whole bump adjustment game again, then probably new front springs in and out a few times to get ride height correct. Wasn't not much more than a year ago that front end was all apart several times? Gotta love the car disease.
Bob

#1065932 - 04/12/20 12:14 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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It’s always something, and one thing always leads to another. Funny how rear end improvements turn into steering corrections.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1065941 - 04/12/20 03:32 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: BadSS]  
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Ive heard that OPGI has some good options

#1066031 - 04/17/20 04:57 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Well looks like the front suspension is coming apart again. Called Dave last week about his new spindle seen here. http://pro-touringf-body.com/ After sending him a few pics of the measurements I got from the spare set of B spindles laying on the bench and him sending me pics of measured distances on his spindle I called him back today. SHIPPED. From all appearances there is a significant Ackermann gain with his new redesigned B spindle. The outer tie rod will be moved outboard 1/4". My previous thoughts on that location was moving that point outboard 1/4" on the B spindles on the car. But heating and bending or welding on that old spindle steering arm just seemed like a bad idea. Even plug welding the old tie rod hole and moving it outboard was looked at.

The other critical measurement is how high the tie rod is placed vertically, his spindle has the tie rod about .100" higher than the old B spindle I measured. Won't know how that will work out as far as bumpsteer goes until I get the new spindle on the car. Currently the modified centerlink which drops the inner tie rods 11/16" and the caster at 9.5 degrees which raised the outer tie rods up produces bump numbers that are actually very good for a garage fix.The bumpsteer gauge I made last year will get another workout I'm afraid. But I made a modified centerlink once, second time should be easier and may be able to dial the bump a little closer to zero this time if a centerlink needs to be made. Just a PITA tacking inner rod locations and checking bump till you get it close enough.

Another big reason to stay with my 20 year old B spindle swap is all the parts such as the Wilwood D52 calipers, 1LE Stop tech rotors, the refurbed Global West UCAs, the modified LCA pivot locations can all be reused and new spindles should be a bolt in. The only minor difference would his spindle KPI is 10 degrees. A B spindle is supposed to be a 10 but I measure 11.3 on the spare B spindle. Won't know what the spindles now on the car are until I pull them. That 1 degree will effect the alignment shim stacks but should be marginal, also effect the scrub radius a little but for the better.

Oh, the spindles are made in Chicago by a company that used to make high end rotors. YEA, Made in the USA. And they are sitting in his warehouse now and should have them in hand by mid week coming.

My B spindle swap was done 20 years ago and always thought there should be a spindle made that would fix the swaps ills. And always thought that if I beat it up enough I could make it competitive and avoid spending 4K to do the AFX swap on my car. Well maybe the time has come and I'll finally have resolved those couple ills that plagued the B swap into a G.


A shout out to Lance and our phone conversation the other day. His experience with these suspensions is a wealth of info. Few have as many stints at speed around orange cones in a short period of time. He can give me the input I need to make decisions. When I heard how much Ackermann he has with the AFX spindle/outboard facing arm setup and his opinion on the difference it makes I knew I had to try these new spindles. The good thing is they aren't expensive, 400 a pair is cheap.

A note about the lost rear spring options post. Lance and I talked about what works in the rear suspension and detailed what I'm feeling the rear is doing. Lance, I softened the bar, and cranked the rebound setting down, topped off the tank and took a drive. Unfortunately the joggers, bikers and walkers are everywhere on the country roads right now, they are not allowed in the gyms and stores. One corner I run often is a up slight grade and a hard 90 right off camber. A place you could feel that rear jiggle loose thing. Well car felt better but exiting the corner there is 3 adults walking a few hundred foot down the road. Oops. At least they waved as a drove by at 10 mph.

More fun to come if shop time allows. But look like another month being home bound. I've run out of weeds to pull.
Bob




Last edited by mmc427ss; 04/17/20 05:03 AM.
#1066034 - 04/17/20 03:56 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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SSLance Offline
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Is a 1/4" out enough of a change to make a difference? Doesn't seem like that would move the position of the outer tie rod end that much to me. I guess it depends on the curve of the steering arm as well.

Anyway, I'm sure anything will help over zero Ackerman. It'll be interesting to see if you notice as much difference as I did.

How did you like the cushy ride with the rear rebound backed out?


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1066046 - 04/18/20 07:14 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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I think 1/4" will be a big improvement, will it be enough won't know till I get it back on the rack to measure angles. When I measure the angle of the arm on my spare B spindle the steering arm is almost pointing straight forward, really no angle outboard. If the new arm at 1/4" outboard, say 3 degrees that is 3 degrees each side so you gain Ackermann angle from input from both sides if that makes sense. Only time will tell what the final gain each side will be.
One of the reasons to limit that to a 1/4" is when running smaller wheels like 15" the tie rod can get very close to the rim lip. Larger wheels, 17-18", usually aren't a problem with tie rod clearance. My 16" shouldn't be a problem.

Looking at the car yesterday I decide to initially just do a simple spindle swap, just remove the old and reinstall the new, very straight forward swap. If the new KPI is 1 or so degrees less than the old B spindle installed that will change the just set 1.25 degrees camber to almost 0 camber. Caster should stay the same, or close. Toe will be way off and will require the tie rods to be lengthened 1/4" each side. So install spindles, check camber with just a straight edge and digital angle gauge off the rim lips, set toe back to a little out and drive the car. Then back in the shop and on my alignmnet rack to align the new setup. Then I will know what the new Ackermann numbers are for each side. Once that is done it's the bump check. Just using my toe gauge I can check ride height to full droop bump numbers and make the decision whether I have the time and energy to pull the springs, shocks and sway bar. Then using my bump gauge setup do the whole bump range of full compression to full droop. Knowing a little more every time you run testing on these suspensions makes checking method better with more accurate results. The bump numbers on the car now are good, hoping new spindle don't deviate much.

From years of playing and plotting the bump on these cars the unequal lengths of the control arms will plot an arc on the graph, it's not linear. By playing with tie rods up or down, as in bumpsteer tie rod kits, you can change the amount of in or out toe at some point in the wheels vertical travel. At some point in that arc is zero bump, the wheel can move in or out from that point through wheel travel up or down. Different steering linkage, front steer, rear steer, rack and pinion, steering arm configuration, ride height, all effect what the plotted arc looks like. So when looking at bump numbers you run the testing and decide at what point in the travel you want the arc at zero bump. This is difficult to put in words but once you run bump numbers with a real gauge full travel you can see the arc of the plot. My current setup has a little toe out in compression y than I 'd like but very little toe out in droop and the arc hits that 0 change number at about 1" droop. Actually a very good plot, and will add a little Ackermann at 20 degrees turn out because of the toe out I run. Cheater Ackermann.

Cushy ride yes, noticed that right away and that was with compression still mid point. Was going to crank down the compression as the second step in the drive but as I said way to many people out on the streets with nothing to do. Later will play with the rear setup and get some seat time with super soft settings and getting a feel for the change.
One thing that doesn't happen is when you're sitting in the driver's seat you have a hard time watching what the inside rear tire is doing in a corner. That's why i like video from bystanders to show the car attitude. I did that even when drag racing, have someone video the first 2 seconds of the launch to see separation, squat.

When I had the car out on Weds had the right rear brake lock up on a hard braking up hill, over a rise which took a little weight of the rear tires. Actually smoked the tire, surprise, surprise. Pulled the RR wheel and nothing unusually for drum brakes but backed off the self adjuster 4 clicks. I credit the lockup to over adjusted because of the way I back the car in off the street and down hill 200' into the shop bay. Gotta love drum brakes for that.
Bob

#1066076 - 04/20/20 11:12 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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While anxiously awaiting the new spindles to arrive it was pull the new BRM rear springs out from under the car. They come powder coated red and I shot them a coating of black Rustoleum Prof enamel. When under the car the other day to adj rear bar notice the red starting to show in places where the low rate section of the dual rate spring coils touch. Nope, no red under my car. Pulled the springs and started the process of Aircraft Stripper numerous time to rid the springs of all black and red. The red powder coating is more difficult to remove but patience will prevail. Called my local powder coater to see if he can black them for me, still waiting to hear from him. He's one of those non-essential businesses here in PA. If he's not open I'll just POR them if I can't hook up with him in the next week or so. I can always throw one of the other three sets of springs laying under a bench on the car if need be.

Had the car out for a short Sun run to test rear brakes, no lockup, gotta love self adjusters. And for those that say, "should have discs", I've seen more than my fair share of disc pads worn excessively on one pad due to floating caliper freeze. Maybe some day do rear disc when I run out of things to upgrade on the car. Always felt rear disc on these cars is a cosmetic upgrade unless you go huge up front and have really big tires.

Our governor has closed all the nurseries (garden plant type) here in PA making gardening a lot more difficult. So the old manual sidewalk edger was pulled from the shed and now about 1/2 way though 400' of sidewalk edges. Man do I need a cars-n-coffee event, anything please. Tired of watching weeds grow so I know when to yank them out of the ground.
Bob

Last edited by mmc427ss; 04/20/20 11:29 PM.
#1066132 - 04/23/20 04:40 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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A big box was sitting outside the front door this morning dropped by the guys with the brown face masks. In the old days we'd call the cops when someone showed up at the door with a face mask. Now we call the cops if they don't have one on. Oh boy.

The spindles from protouringf-body were unboxed and the right one went straight to the measuring jig to compare to the old B spindle already setup there. With the exception of the steering arm the new are copies of the B spindle, except finish is much better on the new one. And Dave said the material is better, stronger but that's something you can't see. There is a slight difference in pitch doing the "ring" test but I ain't no metallurgist. Machined surfaces are nice finish. Some of the old GM spindle had course machined surfaces. The new spindles were black coated first then machined. Will paint the flat machined surfaces before assemble to inhibit rust, yep anal.

Measured KPI appears to the the same on both old and new spindles but a better measuring method will be done before I commit to a number. Dave say 10 degrees, GM says 10 for a B, a little over 11 for both is what I got. An identical KPI for both is a good thing, the new should replace the old with no caster or camber change, if they are identical in casting and drilling. Simple toe adjust and you could drive the car I hope.

Steering arm, the reason to buy new spindles. First need to visit the distance between the center of lower ball joint and outer tie rod, steering arm length. The G spindle is 6 3/4". The B is 6 1/4". The new spindle is 5.80" per Dave's spec which I agree with. The shorter the distance the faster the steering ratio. Going from the G to B steering arm is 8% faster on my car. With a 12:1 XH box and the B steering arms now have 2 1/4 turns lock to lock, very quick steering. New spindle arm at 5.8" will be another 6% faster yet on my car. Hmmm getting interesting. Dave said the reason for the 5.8" is it a compromise because of what the A-body need for length. The A body is another target market for his new spindle. Their steering linkage lengths, pitman and idler, produce less movement in the steering arms, a short spindle steering arms fixes the that. I believe AFX steering arms are 6". So the new spindle arm's length of 5.8" is in the ball park for the A, G and 2nd gen F-body installs The original 2nd gen F spindle is a tall spindle almost identical to the B except it's cast to accept the 11" rotor and caliper setup. Dave produces the spindle to allow big brake packages and the little bit more Ackermann for the 2nd gen F cars, his prime market. I'm one of the first to use it on a G. My install of that spindle is unique due to other mods. Also there is a roundy-round class that has now allowed the B-type spindle to be used. Mason would know more about that.

Ackermann, the reason to spend money and pull the car apart again. You know Ackermann didn't invent Ackermann, he was just the first to patent it. Wearing my good "reader' glasses first measurements show yes there's now more angle outward at the tie rod location. Good. Will run the numbers again but old B is an optimistic 1 degree out. New spindle is 3 out the first time but will purify the method because I need a real number to compare to my turnplate readings and to the computer rack later on. So far I'm optimist I may see a 4 degrees total at 20 degrees. A little more would be nice but after living with 1 degree for 20 years 4 is a victory.

Bumpsteer, won't know how it will change yet. New spindle is about 1/16" higher vertically for the outer tie rod than the old B spindle. Will be able to see how much bump has changed due to the 1/16" just by comparing old droop bump number at full droop to the new numbers. Knowing a whole lot more about the bump curve today than when I was a little younger I should be able to put the curve in the right place to help in both droop and compression. That's a PITA, would be nice to be happy right where the new arms put it. If i need to make a new centerlink again so be it, Already have a home for the old modified centerlink, another friend's 86 SS with B spindles.

Something that limited my time to play with the new spindle is the red powdercoat removal off the BMR springs. It's been a real battle just to see 50% steel. Have been using a fresh can of Airplane Stripper with very slow progress along with the perils of using that stripper. Razor blading it when it gets a little soft, tedious. I've stripped powdercoating off other metals before but the BMR stuff is thick and very stubborn. Because it a spring I can't heat it and don't want to glassbead it off. Soda I don't think will touch it. My powdercoater said drop the spindles off for coating next week. Good, all the red coating hopefully will be gone by Monday.

Gotta find a little ambition to change the spindles, but the current environment makes it difficult to just go the shop and spend a day or two playing with the car. My time comes every couple days at 4 hour chunks in the afternoon. Not long ago it was all nighters, gotta love retirement.
Bob

#1066194 - 04/26/20 11:24 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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As usual time constraints slow progress on the toy. Sat reinstalled the old Global West rear springs because the new BMR rear springs are awaiting their color change to black. The Global were the standard for rear ride height, 27", the other three sets of springs were adjusted to give that same 27". So swapping in the Global springs, a short ride up the road and back to settle them on the rubber insulators and the car is ride height measured to insure correct ride height at four corners. Now it's time to start the new spindle swap.

Before pulling the old spindle took measurements of how much toe change there was from ride height to full droop. This is not an accurate way to check bump but will be able to compare the change with the new spindle. The steering arm height between the old and new is about 1/8" and could, should effect the bump but other factors can effect the bump. How deep the tapered hole in the arm for the outer tie rod is drilled is one thing that can effect that. How thick the body of the arm is at that location also a factor, the new arm is about .020" thinner there, minor difference but something that effects the tie rod effects bump.

Now it's time, jackstands in place, pull the old left spindle. I'm a little particular about cotter pins and not getting sliced by sharp edges on the pins. Removing three cotter pins was the hardest part of the spindle removal. No pickle forks needed because I took the time last year to make a ball joint separator tool similar to the Howe tool. Works great and pops the top and bottom ball joints with little effort.

Last year when the LCA relocation project was done everything was freshened up, new ball joints, everything painted and install of the new spindle was just a wipe things clean and install new spindle. First thing you notice with the tire back on is it's now toed in a fair amount, previously was toed out. YES! This is why the new spindles are on the car.

A problem I found was when the Wilwood D52 caliper was removed the inboard pad had an unusual wear on it. The bottom of the pad was not touching the rotor and was showing the pad had dropped on the rearward side and you could see the curve of the rotors edge and where it wasn't touching. Hmm. For now the pad was taken to the belt sander and the high spot removed so it could be reinstalled. Of the dozens of D52 pads I've changed I've never seen that type of wear. Have seen several other wear patterns caused by floating calipers but never one like this. The pads are Hawk HPS installed on the Wilwood D52 caliper, and I believe the ears that goes over the caliper bolts to hold the pad up is not long enough. Those pads have about 10K on them and wear on the Stop Tech rotors and the pads is normal aside from that problem. When the right side spindle is swap on Mon I'll know if this is a pad ear problem if the other side is worn. Just another little thing to deal with when you do aftermarket parts. Already shopping for another D52 pad to replace the Hawk pads.

Often I wonder why I do long detailed posts, who reads them and who really cares. Actually it's a couple reasons. First I care that someone else may be reading this and it may help them in some small way. And I do believe there are others like me that need to have information, opinion, that they can go back to and learn from. The traffic in the forums is getting closer and closer to zero so the encyclopedia of car info is getting lost to social media which is only about today, and breakfast tomorrow. The forums are the encyclopedia to store info, there is no storage on Facebook worth mentioning.
The forums will be like the World Book, Britannica, we had them years ago when we were kids, they went to the recycle. Only the smart people have several sets on the library shelves, knowledge is king. Soon advertising, entertainment, social media will be all you will get from the internet.
,
Besides the members in this forum there are possible numerous other readers not members here that just stop and see what they can learn. I do, did, it all the time for decades, LS1, Pro-touring, lateral G, nastyZ28, f-body, the Buicks, W-body, Astro, and many many more, have sucked info and opinion from all of them over the years. Thank you to the non members readers out there.

Sunday lunchtime, raining, cold, nothing on TV and thank goodness I don't have Netflix or I'd be 20 lbs heavier now. Never had typing in school so beating up an old Dell keyboard passes the time, glad it has spell check.

End of rant, time for diner and the dishes to make my hands pretty again after a few days of paint stripper.
Bob

#1066201 - 04/27/20 02:30 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Apr 2011
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
Hope you get the brakes figured out, sounds like some strange wear to me too. I try to keep up with the posts, maybe because I'm too cheap to spend money on my own car, and don't have the time/workspace to fabricate things from scratch like I'd like, so I live vicariously through others...
Anyway, you're not missing much on Netflix, and the old Dell keyboard seems to be working just fine smile


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1066287 - 05/03/20 05:44 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Jan 2000
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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Pottstown, Pa
Hopefully this is a quick update.

The BRM springs are back from the powdercoater, black, still sitting on the bench but will go back in for the last time for a while. Had to put them on the spring rater again so they can be marked left and right. The slightly higher rate spring is put on the left side, only 10lbs, All four sets of spring are marked left or right. Got to get some driving time on them now.

New spindle are in and alignmnet done again. Set on the left side is -1.3 camber, +9.6 caster, right side is -1.2 camber and +9.7 caster. A toe out setting of 5 /32" but will be checked a couple times yet. Need to do a bump check from ride height to full droop to see how much the new steering arm has effected bump. If not happy with it will pull the front end apart and start the bump fix process all over again, when I get that dose of energy. .

Ackermann improvement was basically a bust. The gains from the new spindle are almost negligible. The new spindles is a duplicate casting of the old B spindle. Where it deviates is in the location drilled for the outer tie rod on the steering arm. It's located about about 3/16" outboard but is moved closer to the lower ball joint by .450". Moving that closer negated some of the gain from the outboard move. At 20 degrees steering input only seeing 1 1/2 to 2 degrees gain. At 30 degrees, full lock steering, getting different numbers side to side and not sure why. 1 degree on one side 3 1/2 the other. Soon the car will go on a computer rack and the Ackermann numbers are the primary reason to do that. Hopefully that new-fangled machine with those optical sensors can shed some light on Ackermann.

Tonight was supposed to be the first car show on the main street in town, usually draws about 300 cars. Yesterday some of the restrictions were lifted here and the local club that does the show decided to do an old school cruise instead. No parking, no standing around and maintain the new norm of distance. The wife and I did the circuit about 4 times until i was tired of it, about an hour. Too much idling in traffic with a stick gets old after a while. But i can say for the most part it went pretty well, Didn't see a lot of social dissension. Put about 40 miles on the car this afternoon after blowing the dust off at the 2 buck car wash. Very happy with the front suspension setup in the car. After dropping the wife back at the house got a few fast corners under my belt, front end is good, turn in outstanding. Tracking at 20 through 100 is very good, no hands needed. Even the steering wheel is level after all the playing around with toe in the shop.

Will throw the BMR rear springs back in Mon, check toe again and do the bump check then drive the car a lot to put miles on the front tune. Gotta learn how to drive this car again.

Oh, unusual wear on the one front brake pad. Probably operator error when I reinstalled the caliper a little while ago. It may have dropped down and I didn't notice it when the bolts went back in. Me bad!

The Visa bill for the spindles is paid. Next decide if the new triple adjustable Viking shocks need to replace the Viking double adjustable on the rear.
Bob

#1066288 - 05/03/20 02:09 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
Joined: Dec 2007
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SSLance Offline
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SSLance  Offline
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Bummer it didn't pan out as expected Bob.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1066293 - 05/04/20 04:14 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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When Dave emailed pics of the new arm measurements I pretty much knew it wasn't going to be enough outboard movement and then later realizing shortening of the steering arm length would negate some of that. So the net gain in degrees is minimal. And if the steering arm height changes my bump curve for the worse, hmmm. Next step is see what the smart rack can show me.
A 1987 Caprice cop car donated the spindles I ran for 20 years, they are still in excellent condition, journals are sweet. They may end up back in the car depending what that fancy alignmnet rack says.
Will be talking to Dave about the new spindles. Wonder if he can obtain a set not drilled for the outer tie rod. I'll drill and ream it myself.
After 20 years of playing with the B spindle swap and now having a B spindle repopped that really doesn't help with the ills of the B in a G is disheartening. But life goes on, run what ya brung.

Monday will reinstall the BMR rear springs, check toe out and bump to full droop. Then makes numerous trips for cheap gas as I rack up mileage on the car and work on learning how to deal with the rear bite.

Ya know this whole Ackermann hangup was because the road course that was supposed to go in along side the golf course I played every week didn't happen. Since the days of Trans Am's birth that was the kinda racing I wanted to do, 19 years old and full of seeds. When I started this touring car build the proposed road course 10 minutes away was a place I was going to play, Liberty Bell Motorsport. After a decade in the court system the investors dried up and no track. Drag raced it a hundred passes and never was fast, just quick. Got the autox bug 5 years ago and find it hard to find close venues, without rain.
Back to Ackermann, more is better, that was my goal, because more is better at autox. On a road course Ackermann needed can be minimal, the radius and speeds of the corners would influence it. IF the car was running laps at Liberty Bell the Ackermann with either spindle would be fine, no need to play this spindle game.
Bob

#1066325 - 05/07/20 04:52 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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Pottstown, Pa
Today Thurs, have had the car out several times now since the new spindles went on, maybe 75 miles. Truth be told the new spindles are a bust for my car, no real gain in Ackermann, and after a quick check of bump from ride height to full droop now is toeing in were before had a little toe out with the old spindles. From ride height to 2" droop went from a set 1/8" toe out to 1/8" toe in, 1/4" change, which isn't terrible considering it's a G with a B spindle. But previously was only a .040" toe out change from ride height to full droop, much better.
Also another small change was ride height went up a little on each front corner of the car, minor yes, but another negative result of the swap.

Stopped at my alignment shop yesterday to see when i can get it on his computer rack to verify the numbers I got, maybe next week. Will continue to put miles on the new spindle setup but at this point pretty sure I have a brand new set of spindles to pull and reinstall the old. Just need to verify the Ackermann on his machine first.

I was going to call Dave at protouringf-body to discuss my result but he actually called me this afternoon to see how I was making out. I was blunt and told him they were a loser in my car, bump and Ackermann the issues.
Where i go from here is still up in the air until I see the numbers from the computer rack.

I have a friend who works in a small specialty glass blowing factory, I've been inside there several times watching them making all kinds of neat, expensive glass. What is notable is the large ovens they use. They may to the source of heat I could use to test bending a cast steel steering arm on a junk spindle I have. Have investigated rebending the steering arms via blacksmithing but it's complicated procedure. But, something I may waste time doing on a junk spindle just for S&G.

Being there is nothing going on in my racing world for the foreseeable future I'll leave the new spindles in and just beat the car up on the back roads until something more can be done with Ackermann. If there is anything i know about hot rodding it's trial and error, sometimes you win, most times you lose, and the pocketbook is a little lighter.
Bob

#1066341 - 05/08/20 11:43 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Warriorridge Offline
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Petersburg PA
I've been working on putting the suspension together on mine an just went through figuring out the ackerman myself. I ended up cutting and welding the steering arms on mine. I know welding cast knuckles sounds wrong, but I think the knuckles are cast steel, not cast iron. Actually seems to somewhat common in the drift world, they modify their steering arms for more steering angle and to change the ackerman. I put a pretty good size bevel in, preheated the parts, then tig welded them, peened between passes, then made sure cooled down slowly. They seem to be pretty solid, they took a few hits with a sledge hammer with no damage done.

#1066343 - 05/09/20 02:47 AM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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mmc427ss Online content
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mmc427ss  Online Content
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Good to hear from you Justin. I was wondering how your were doing with your chassis.

The spindle are cast steel. On my extensive search of who has welded spindles I found the same thing, drifters need excessive Ackermann, drifters wear "No Fear" T-shirts, some drift cars weld spindles. On some of the Engineer forums and the Welding forums I've read that some will say NEVER weld and some say, yep they have done it.
I MIG, don't have a TIG, have a chassis builder friend who I asked to do it. As you said it involves preheat and maintaining 300-400 degrees at the weld, peaning is a plus, a zillion passes would be necessary to build the B steering arm up to full size again, it's much fatter than a G arm, and a long cool down period. I've read some have used a 55 gallon drum of kitty liter. He didn't want to be baked at 300-400 while he spent a lot of time making passes, said NO!

Sean over on PT.com built a 95 F150 chassis and welded his arms also. As Lance said to me, pack a lunch and read through Sean's build, persistent young fellow.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/129476-95-F-150-track-ready-street-beast
On page 16, post 306-309 is his steering arm cut and weld. The B spindle steering arm is possible three time the thickness of his arm where it would need to be cut.

Justin what spindle and what are your goals for settable caster, camber gains. Last years project of moving the lower ball joint forward was the big winner that got caster close to KPI and really good camber gains, moved the tire forward away from the inner well another huge plus.

Every time I play with the rear shim stack on the right UCA I think about when you moved your right mount. Mine is also out of wack, front shim is .114", rear stack is .435". compared to the left side that is front .181" rear .214". This is to get -1.2 and 9.6 goals. You'll be glad you fixed that.
Bob

#1066349 - 05/09/20 06:50 PM Re: Rear spring options for handling [Re: mmc427ss]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
You can build a temporary preheat box out of drywall (gypsum) board. We did that for a work project that needed a really high preheat on an aluminum part (almost to melting point, seemed like 1000° preheat with 1150° filler rod and 1250° base material melting?). Worked great for that part, about 5-6 layers of drywall, lined with ceramic heaters that we could toggle on and off, then pull the lib, make the braze, and close it again. Could also ramp down the heat as well for controlled cooling.
Might be able to make something work from an old electric oven, set it on 400, open the door to make a pass, close it again, repeat. Just a thought.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
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