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#1059849 - 11/15/18 04:30 AM 6.0 LS Build  
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pro86tourn Offline
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Hi guys,

I have been MIA for some time as my project was placed on hold for a number of reasons which has lead me to now needing to get the car back on the road to enjoy once again! The car has been stored and hasnt seen sun light since 2013!

I found a 2004 Denali with 387000km but the truck runs GREAT, no knocks, no oil burning and pulls hard. (transmission even shifts great)

I can get the truck for less than $1000 complete, pull the engine etc. scrap the truck and even sell the rims and brand new tires/transmission to recoup costs while using the engine.

I am looking to have a good solid performer the car is a 1987 Monte Carlo SS with a 5 speed (I would like to find a t-56). I would like to keep the car carbed to save on costs and reduce headaches.

I know there is a million ways to build this engine but I am looking for suggestions from the great minds on this website to chime in and help developing a parts list to make some good bang for buck HP/TQ.


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059851 - 11/15/18 04:56 AM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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MC96 Offline
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I would copy the CT 525 specs as much as possible but try and move the RPM range down a bit


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1059859 - 11/15/18 04:11 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Honestly, keeping the carb is going to cost the same and have a similar amount of headache to using EFI. If you don't like wiring, send the factory harness off to get modified, and any number of folks will reprogram the ECU for a very reasonable charge that will get you on the road. If you have a heads/cam type build, you might be able to get the info to a good mail order tune shop and they can get a really good, driveable tune for a couple hundred dollars. Add a high pressure fuel system and you are done. If you go carb, you need to buy a new intake and computer to run the ignition which will be the same as what you will be shelling out for the harness and tune. You already have the EFI hardware...

As far as plans for the engine, what are your goals, and what is your budget? If you want 500 wheel hp for cheap, leave the engine alone and put a turbo on it. If you want 500 NA, be prepared to swap heads, cam, high dollar intake, and a few other things. If you want ~400hp at the crank, toss a "Sloppy Stage 2" cam and headers at it and be done.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1059860 - 11/15/18 04:33 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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I make clutch pedal kits for hydraulic setups. My aim was to make it feel like a factory 6-speed car so you don't get fatigued driving it.

www.sickspeedmonte.com/Pedal.htm

#1059862 - 11/15/18 05:13 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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I'm a big fan of the Summit LS Stage III cam. 231/242 .600/.600 113 LSA. It made 412 hp to the wheels with an unlocked 200-4r.

It costs more to do the Carb Stuff, since you have to buy a fuel pump anyway... Just buy an MS3 gold box plug and play harness and you'll be good. The throttle response from EFI is what makes these motors so good.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1059870 - 11/15/18 11:54 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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pro86tourn Offline
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I guess the way to go is keeping the car FI i certainly thought going the carbed route would be the fasted cheapest way to get the car back on the road. Would it be easiest to find a GN fuel tank or just utilize the stock tank and add an external pump? My goal would be to make 450+ HP NA, I just want a fun car to take out like old times and have the pro touring look with better handling/breaking and a nice sounding engine for weekend rides.

Is it possible to utilize the stock harness/ecu from the truck? or is it much easer to purchase one from a vendor? id hate to spend over $1000 just on wiring (but it is what it is)

My thoughts were either freshen up the bottom end adding new bearings, rings then having the heads decked, new valves installed and springs with cam/intake but I will save money where i can.

Total goal is to have the car driving again for $3500 or less! So any further advice would be great,

Thanks again guys!


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059873 - 11/16/18 02:23 AM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Get a harness and tune from PSI. Having the old harness modded can lead to unreliable results in terms of looks and fit and, in my case, ugly workmanship from the shop. PSI is all new wires, ends, and look so no grime or brittle old stuff to deal with.

I was EFI and switched to carb. Didn’t want to pay for a tune if I got a different intake, headers or made major changes like heads and cam.

Get a spectre GN tank and replacement or racetronix sending unit for fuel system. If you run EFI you’ll need a high pressure pump and lines, for carb I’m running a TBI Monte elec fuel pump and could have used factory lines to connect to the carb with a regulator in line somewhere.

Last edited by spacemanspif; 11/16/18 02:24 AM.

-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1059876 - 11/16/18 04:35 AM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: spacemanspif]  
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Originally Posted by spacemanspif
Get a harness and tune from PSI. Having the old harness modded can lead to unreliable results in terms of looks and fit and, in my case, ugly workmanship from the shop. PSI is all new wires, ends, and look so no grime or brittle old stuff to deal with.

I was EFI and switched to carb. Didn’t want to pay for a tune if I got a different intake, headers or made major changes like heads and cam.

Get a spectre GN tank and replacement or racetronix sending unit for fuel system. If you run EFI you’ll need a high pressure pump and lines, for carb I’m running a TBI Monte elec fuel pump and could have used factory lines to connect to the carb with a regulator in line somewhere.



How do you find the car now compared to FI, pros/cons? More expensive to go carbed or FI? My concerns exactly is paying for constant tuning. Hows MPG between the two?

thanks for your input


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059879 - 11/16/18 07:49 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Travis Jones Offline
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Originally Posted by pro86tourn
Originally Posted by spacemanspif
Get a harness and tune from PSI. Having the old harness modded can lead to unreliable results in terms of looks and fit and, in my case, ugly workmanship from the shop. PSI is all new wires, ends, and look so no grime or brittle old stuff to deal with.

I was EFI and switched to carb. Didn’t want to pay for a tune if I got a different intake, headers or made major changes like heads and cam.

Get a spectre GN tank and replacement or racetronix sending unit for fuel system. If you run EFI you’ll need a high pressure pump and lines, for carb I’m running a TBI Monte elec fuel pump and could have used factory lines to connect to the carb with a regulator in line somewhere.



How do you find the car now compared to FI, pros/cons? More expensive to go carbed or FI? My concerns exactly is paying for constant tuning. Hows MPG between the two?

thanks for your input


So if you go with Megasquirt and get a wideband like i did, the software will tune itself, once you set up a baseline. (also unless you plan on making big changes to the motor you're not going to have to tune it that often, and even with a carb you're going to want to dyno tune it)

as far as the fuel system goes, you can re-use the stock fuel tank with a GN hanger, but dont drive below 1/4 tank or you risk fuel starve.

The only proper way to run an external pump is to sump your existing tank or run a fuel cell.

Also if it has good oil pressure and good compression leave it together and just send it. dont let the factory magic out.


86 SS 6.2l LS3, Ilmor intake, Summit Stage 4 Cam, Stainless long tube headers, Stainless 3in exhaust, Tremec T-56 Magnum 6 speed, Eaton Truetrac 8.8 LSD, UMI Cornermax Front Suspension, 3-link Rear suspension w/ UMI Control Arms, UMI Front & Rear Braces, Brembo Brakes
#1059886 - 11/17/18 03:58 AM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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pro86tourn Offline
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Looks like i need to gather a parts list and start weighing the costs!

Keeping the bottom end together that high mileage isnt risky? Or just let it eat until she pops eventually... your the second person to recommend that! haha


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059889 - 11/17/18 01:04 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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86SS86LS Offline
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Given your $3500 budget (the t56 will eat up a large portion of that) I would keep the engine stock with the exception of cam and valve springs. Pay someone $2-300 to rework the factory harness, mail order tune, gm muscle car oil pan, fbody pacesetter headers, etc......should put you in the ballpark of $3500 once you partout what's left of the denali.

#1059890 - 11/17/18 01:57 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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spacemanspif Offline
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For my stock 5.3 the 750 carb I got was a bit overkill. It’s jetted down a few and runs and doesn’t foul plugs but in the summer I can’t stab the gas and go, instead it bogs down and needs to be eased in to WOT. With the cooler air now it’s a completely different animal and is running strong. I need to tune it more but have a LQ4 waiting on 243 heads and a cam that’s going in next spring so I’m not wasting my time with fine tuning the 5.3. We bought a house this summer and car didn’t get driven much otherwise I might have messed with the carb more.

The devil will always be in the smalls. Keep factory computer and your old tablet can be your gauge package with the torque app. Your fan is controlled by comp too. But you need full fuel system and wiring/tuning done. Since your going T56, trans control is a moot point.

With a carb you keep all your Monte wiring, just hook the ignition wire to the msd box and you’re ready to roll. But you need a tach that reads the msd signal and will probably want all new matching gauges. You also need a fan switch and possibly a way to increase idle for A/C if you have it.

Each has it merits and it’s up to the owner to decide, you can do both methods on the low or high end of the dollar scale. Your taste and personal preferences will determine if you can be happy with the results of a given budget.

I like the look of a round air cleaner on top of an engine. I’ve considered going back to EFI but if I do it will be with a throttle body on top of a carbed intake with injector ports drilled in it.


-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1059892 - 11/17/18 03:41 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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pro86tourn Offline
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$3500 - will be for engine only, i can live with the t5 for a season or until I can find a good deal on a t56 down the road if need be. My neighbour ha a 9 second mustang with a 6.0 LS/carbed (built for the track) but runs strong. Thats what lead me to believe carb may be cheaper/easier. Would the factory denali ECU still work if i have the harness modified? The car will not have A/C.

I also like the old school look of the engine vrs newer style but ill live with it regardless.

What would be the best route for a Carb, intake on the LQ4? if i do nice cam/valvetrain setup. I had an edelbrock on my 327 people are telling me holley carbs are a pain for street use so any recommendations there would be good.

Could i keep the rad and electric fans i have now?

Going to pick up the truck today! wish me luck


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059893 - 11/17/18 07:56 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Project update - Picked up the 2004 Denali today! negotiated down to $750 CAD. Truck runs great - Time to start building a parts list smile .... so excited to get this car on the road this spring after many years


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059897 - 11/18/18 01:18 AM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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86SS86LS Offline
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Originally Posted by pro86tourn
Would the factory denali ECU still work if i have the harness modified?

Yes, modifying the harness just removes wiring that is not necessary.....like EGR, AC, rear O2s.....etc. The factory ECM (with VATS removed and a tune ) will work just fine with a modified harness.

#1059902 - 11/18/18 02:07 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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pro86tourn Offline
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For the initial build I am still 60/40 leaning towards carbed. I have been researching like crazy trying to develop my setup and whether I should spend some extra money to get L92 Heads, they make more power no doubt but seem to sacrifice some bottom end TQ. I also want to have a nice cam with choppy idle that performs well on the street. I'd like to bump the compression up a bit to help everything come together.

Any advice on what I should lean towards would be awesome!

I posted pics on my build thread on Pro-Touring website just for ease of posting pics. If you would like to check that out. https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/129827-6-0-LS-Build/page2?p=1282891#post1282891

Last edited by pro86tourn; 11/18/18 04:29 PM.

327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059909 - 11/19/18 12:12 AM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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I’m sure the 5spd will be fine, depending on the trans a 6spd is only more shifts to get to the roughly the same OD. I think the magnum T56 or the viper version have a shorter OD than a Vette.

The factory computer will work fine, you’ll need a tune to turn off VATS, rear O2 sensors, and auto trans control. But since you’re going with a cam and maybe heads you’re going to need a tune anyway so don’t get a base tune until you know your package and can just tune once. If you are good with wiring you can mod the factory harness but as I said before; a call to PSI will get you a brand new harness with a fuse/relay box and extra wire to place the computer wherever you want.

Your fans and rad have nothing to do with the engine but depending on where your ports are could make it difficult to find hoses. I ran a factory Monte replacent sprectre and a champion and both use a factory truck lower rad hose. For the upper you can trim a factory hose and use a union or find another that will work. The EFI computer and harness can work fans no problem. To run fans with a carb you need to get a temp switch, I forget what brand mine is but I got it at summit, it threads into the port on the head and is used to ground the fan relay; on at 210 I think and off at 195.

What size carb is on your 327? Not needing to buy a carb changes the budget a lot. I have a Quickfuel 750 that cost somewhere in the $600 range. Bit too big for a stock 5.3 but is working and should work on the LQ4 nicely. If you have an electric fuel pump you can keep your entire fuel system if you run carb on the LS assuming the pump/lines can move the new, higher, fuel demand. But if you are still running a mechanical fuel pump, you’ll need to step up to electric.

Easy cold start and general drivability will always go to EFI.


-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1059928 - 11/19/18 05:13 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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I sold the carb off the 327 long time ago I will have to buy a new carb/fuel pump. I am just researching trying to find the best build combo to starting ordering parts !


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059932 - 11/19/18 07:51 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Getting a PSI harness is a good way to go, especially once you have the rest of the package together and like Mike said, just get the tune once. You can fine tune on the dyno, or just run with a conservative box tune and know that you have a little more on reserve.
Aftermarket EFI is an option, you will just have to look at the dollars and see what you can do based on the material you have on hand and what you feel comfortable with yourself.
As far as the short block, I've got a 2004 Denali with 210k miles, doesn't consume any oil, no knocks, etc. I drive it daily, including family road trips with 4 small kids. The wife's car is a 2001 Suburban with 300k on the 5.3, it had 35-40 psi oil pressure at idle on 5w-30 oil, even in the Texas summer heat. I pulled it last year because it needed top end work, after inspecting it a little more, it will go back in something (I've got a few different candidates) with new valvesprings and a cam, I don't plan on letting the magic out either.
These engines aren't like the older stuff, where anything you pull from a car with over 100k needs a rebuild if you have the chance. 240k miles/347 km is a decent bit, but not enough to be scared of if there's no symptoms of wear besides the odometer count. I'd save the money from redoing a perfectly good enough short block and put it towards something fun.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1059937 - 11/19/18 10:52 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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I couldnt agree more I had a 2004 Escalade in years past and sold the truck when it had 421km and the truck ran PERFECT.

so heres where Im at:

-Stock bottom end, just clean it up and let er' eat OR Pull the bottom end apart send to machine shop, new bearings etc put back together stock but freshened up w/ ARP bolts
-Freshen up stock heads with new springs OR Deck the stock heads new springs/valves OR L92 heads
-Need to pick valve train I would like to go with a cam that offers a nice chop but I am horrible at selecting cams (this would depend on the head choice but any advice helps)
-Intake vic Jr or something else (will be only street driven dont want to give away too much overall TQ)
-Carb choice holly or would you guys recommend something different / CFM?


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059947 - 11/20/18 05:07 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Not sure if you've seen this, but it might be some good info to compare to. Ignore their prices, typical magazine build where "Budget" means whatever parts their sponsors have just released. If you go EFI, get a harness and computer from a reputable source for ~$700 and a used set of injectors (if you don't want to just decap the truck injectors for free). But some headers, a mild cam (they use an LS6 below, a decent midlevel cam from just about any source will get you similar/better results), and maybe a head swap for higher compression and you are at your goal for not too much money.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/iron-maiden-part-1/
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/make-457-hp-budget-6-0l-engine/


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1059948 - 11/20/18 07:01 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Very interesting build.. I am shocked they utilized the 5.3 heads, is there anyway to increase the compression with the stock 6.0 heads?


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059964 - 11/21/18 04:04 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Yeah, I was surprised by that as well. I need to do some more looking, but I've got an extra set of 5.3 heads that I might put on my DD LQ4 Denali now if that's true...
I suppose there's always the option of milling heads or changing gasket thickness etc, but for the price of 5.3 heads that would probably be the best bet. Sell the old, buy some new, and you might be able to get out for the cost of a couple gaskets and bolt sets...


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1059968 - 11/21/18 06:17 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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I always thought LS3/L92 heads but i never knew the 5.3 heads were better off, I will certainly have to look into this!

Anyone have experience using a T5 Trans ? (Just until I save for a t56)


327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
#1059983 - 11/23/18 11:51 PM Re: 6.0 LS Build [Re: pro86tourn]  
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Update - Did a compression test today and I was very happy and surprised at how well it turned out! Highest was 179 lowest was 169/170, with most being in the 175ish range for such a high KM engine I cant complain.

With these numbers I am just going to replace the valve train, maybe the bearings in the bottom end and let the engine eat.

The cam I am looking to run Comp LS custom hydraulic roller, Xtreme Energy LSG Lobe 13119 int and 13121 exhaust. Intake measures 283' @ 0.002/234'@0.050 0.602" lift with stock rocker. Exhaust measures 291' @ 0.002/242'@0.050 0.605" lift with stock rocker. The cam was ground with 112' split and 4' advanced. How do you guys think that will be in the engine with a victor Jr intake/carb

Last edited by pro86tourn; 11/23/18 11:51 PM.

327, 5 speed... mostly for show, but man does she go!
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