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#1035845 - 03/04/16 03:54 AM Another front frame brace  
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spacemanspif Offline
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Sewell, NJ
I saw on Facebook that UMI is almost done designing a front frame brace that looks like a carbon copy of the one SC&C has been selling for years. I asked about the marterial it will be made from and the response was "mild steel". I've thought about buying the brace from SC&C becuase of the good things people say about it but subscribe more to MAP's philosophy that more weight on the front end does not get cancelled out by the added ridgidity. I know SSLance is running a GP bar but I'm not sure if that is becuase of the weight or the availability (1 laying around on a shelf maybe?). To me it seems like UMI is wasting time designing something that already exists and not improving on it. If it were aluminum I might consider buying it but with just another steel option I'm more inclined to keep looking for a GP bar or make my own brace like like a member (who's name I can't remember right now) did so many years ago out of some square tubing.

What are your thoughts? I don't know how to link from FB mobile but it was posted on LSx Gbody group. I'm Mike Cinelli in the comments section.

Last edited by spacemanspif; 03/04/16 03:57 AM.

-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1035852 - 03/04/16 12:55 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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SSLance Offline
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Peoria, AZ
I have never really concentrated on chassis rigidity or weight with my build, I spent more time making the suspension perform properly and the results speak for themselves. You are correct in that I'm running the GP bar because I had one.

I'd like to try the UMI bar because I know it was designed around a huge sway bar like I run. Right now my F41 bars and my GP bar are spaced out away from their mounting points with multiple washers and longer bolts so they'll clear my sway bar.

I just recently shed about 50 pounds off the front of my car with the aluminum heads, it'll be interesting to see if there is any handling changes with this weight reduction...I doubt that I'll even be able to tell once out on course.


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1035858 - 03/04/16 02:14 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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MC96 Offline
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St. Johns MI
I always planned on just gusseting the corners using notched tubing, or even making a jig and building a few myself.
Im sure they will have it at a decent price, probably too good to waste your time doing yourself. Our UMI stuff just hit the shelf here.
Thousands and thousands worth!


86 SS
400SBC, 4l80e, MSD Atomic injection/trans controller, Tilt glass clip, all tubular arms, corvette brakes, 9" rear
In progress
#1035860 - 03/04/16 02:33 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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Jameson Offline
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The SC&C one has great clearance. I'm running a helwig 1-3/8 front bar on mine with no issues. But I really do feel they are just copying the SC&C brace with no gains.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#1035861 - 03/04/16 02:33 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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spacemanspif Offline
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I feel like the GP bar or the kirban performance version of the GP are still better options. Which is why I still haven't bought the SC&C bar for my car. I'm also not driven by "that'll look cool on my car" type thinking so maybe I'm just biased against it. If Lance is correct and the UMI one will clear bigger sway bars, I guess they have improved on SC&C's design but I'm still not convinced it's worth it. One day I may pull the plug and get the solid aluminum bumper shocks and use the bumper to tie the font end together while shaving weight in the process...

Jameson, did you notice any benefits with the SC&C bar after installing it?

Last edited by spacemanspif; 03/04/16 02:35 PM.

-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1035862 - 03/04/16 02:36 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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ramey36 Offline
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Philipsburg, PA
Based on how many of the rear braces we sell, I'm excited to see this product released!

#1035863 - 03/04/16 02:40 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: MC96]  
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ramey36 Offline
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Philipsburg, PA
Mason, I'm pumped for Motor State to have the UMI stuff also. It will be cool to work with you guys. I talked with John Sheskey yesterday for a bit.

#1035864 - 03/04/16 02:56 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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SSLance Offline
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Ramey, just imagine how many of these front bars you'll sell once I prove it works...both on the car and on the track. wink


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1035875 - 03/04/16 05:06 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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UMI Performance Offline
My First Post!
UMI Performance  Offline
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Philipsburg, Pa
We kept sway bar clearance in mind when building the brace, it will clear all size bars. We even mocked up our own "muscle bar" to make sure it clears. It should.

Similar to a rear control arm there is are only so many ways to design it. It attaches in three locations that we have to work with. We made sure it has plenty of clearance and used our own touches to make sure it matches what you'd expect from a UMI product. It will also be available through SC&C as they are a UMI dealer. It never hurts to have other options.

The issue with lighter weight material is cost. It's hard at times to get people to pay for the extra cost of different materials. I agree, aluminum would be awesome but hard to get people to pay for it. Its a catch-22.

I am pretty excited to release it as well. Installing the freshly red powder coated brace right now.

PS- I just released I have been lurking this board for 3-1/2 years and this is my first post. Wow.

Last edited by UMI Performance; 03/04/16 05:07 PM.
#1035876 - 03/04/16 05:23 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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SSLance Offline
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SSLance  Offline
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Peoria, AZ
Is this Ryan? If so, WELCOME!!!


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1035877 - 03/04/16 05:54 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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spacemanspif Offline
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Sewell, NJ
What is the projected price point? How much more would an aluminum version cost and how much less would it weigh?


-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1035880 - 03/04/16 06:49 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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Pottstown, Pa
I've been running a 1st edition Kirbin front brace for 15 years now, this made of 1" square tube and only tie the horns togeather. Later Kirbin version was round tube, neither had the diagonal braces to the crossmember like the SC&C. I was at SC&C to pick up a rear Pro Tour bar many years ago and he showed me the front brace he was introducing. My first thought was it needed to be alum, it adds a good bit of weight to an area that needs to go on a diet. I've played with the idea of building one myself of alum to lose a few pounds off the front end. As Ryan said most people wouldn't be willing to pay the price for structural alum.

The GP under rad brace I've pulled from a GP, found it may help a little but is nothing more than a bent piece of EMT, you can fold it in half easily. Even after pulling several diagonal under hood braces used on the GP I found they came in two different wall thicknesses,.042" and .060", EMT is .040". The .060" diagonals have been on the car for 15 years.

I applaud UMI, SC&C and Spohn for their efforts to improve the GM platforms, they were fine vehicles for grandma but need lots of help to perform better.

This year at GM Carlisle I should make it a point to look for Ryan. Have walked through your display and looked the past three years, have watch the Green Machine at the autox, need to say Hi. It's only a few hundred feet from the 4th gen Monte paddock.

Been to Philipsburg a few times when my sister went to school at PSU 4 decades ago, stayed at the local motel, my bet it is still the "icebox of Pa".
Bob

#1035882 - 03/04/16 07:06 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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ramey36 Offline
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Philipsburg, PA
Can anyone take a guess at the weight of the prototype?

#1035891 - 03/04/16 08:32 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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Yuma, AZ
Hi Folks,

I've been un-lurking here for a while now since the cost of duplicating, let alone exceeding, factory performance in the home-brew realm has become as big a financial sink as a second mortgage. Maybe even a second and a third...

Explanation for silence out of the way, maybe I can add a few thoughts here:

1. The front brace segments supplies stiffness mostly in the uniaxial sense, that is - mostly longitudinally, and little in bending.
2. Young's modulus in relation to mass density is about the same whether steel or aluminum, so for equal stiffness, both structures would weigh about the same: the key difference is that the steel version would have roughly 1/3 the wall thickness of aluminum.

About the handling impact of weight on the front end (or any end,) I've found it to be quite large. When I removed the battery from the front and moved it to the trunk, the difference was instantly noticeable. The trouble is that it's easy to dismiss this factor when it's so difficult to explore. In general, for RWD, and especially for a car as front-heavy as an MCSS, every pound that can be dropped from the front end is a big win. Another aspect of this is Izz (rotational inertia about a vertical axis passing through the car's COM,) is impacted most for mass distributed far away from that axis, in terms of the car's transient response to steering inputs. The impact in this sense goes as r^2, so mass concentrated at the extreme front and back of the car hurts far more than mass concentrated in the center.

So, combining all factors, weight far forward is a big detriment to handling. Even worse: far foward and high up. But regarding the front brace, steel or aluminum of equal stiffness will weigh about the same.

HTH,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 03/04/16 08:45 PM.
#1035898 - 03/04/16 11:39 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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ramey36 Offline
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Philipsburg, PA
We will have black or red powder coat.

#1035904 - 03/05/16 01:30 AM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: ramey36]  
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SSLance Offline
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SSLance  Offline
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Peoria, AZ
Originally Posted By: ramey36
Can anyone take a guess at the weight of the prototype?


6 pounds


Lance
1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car
#1035906 - 03/05/16 02:27 AM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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spacemanspif Offline
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Sewell, NJ
20lbs


-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1035910 - 03/05/16 03:13 AM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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mmc427ss Offline
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mmc427ss  Offline
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5 lbs with hardware. Alum less than 1/2 of that. Titanium, Hmmm, to hard to paint.
Bob

#1035919 - 03/05/16 08:06 AM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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Buick Runner Offline
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Buick Runner  Offline
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Dharma station 1 the Hydra
Besides cost, aluminum would have a couple of more downsides, galvanic erosion between a aluminum brace and steel frame, and aluminum fatigues faster than steel. Titanium doesn't withstand fatigue as well as steel either. Carbon fiber would be a good day choice except for cost.

Aluminum bumper mounts are a bad idea for a street driven car since they don't telescope like the steel stock ones. Personally I dislike removing safety features for any reason.

I know front end weight is an issue, but the frame is so flexible, I remember when reinstalling my front fenders, I could not adjust them right until all four wheels were on the ground. Up on stands, the front frame sagged enough to throw off fender alignment. Don't know if a front frame brace would cut down on frame sag in the front?


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1035943 - 03/06/16 12:10 AM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: Buick Runner]  
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Jameson Offline
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Jameson  Offline
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Elizabeth City, NC
Originally Posted By: spacemanspif

Jameson, did you notice any benefits with the SC&C bar after installing it?


After messing with these cars for over 15yrs I would have to say yes, while I'm also running full SPC front suspension the car is very tight in the front end.

Originally Posted By: Buick Runner
Carbon fiber would be a good day choice except for cost.



You'd still get galvanic corrosion with carbon fiber bolted to steel.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#1035955 - 03/06/16 05:49 AM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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Buick Runner Offline
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Buick Runner  Offline
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Dharma station 1 the Hydra
That makes sense since carbon is conductive, guess we can rule carbon fiber out. GM deleted bracing to reduce weight which also increased flexing and reduced strength which leaves us with a paradox. The best fix is going with an improved redesigned frame from the aftermarket but that option is beyond what most of us can do. Personally I put up with the weight penalty from the frame braces.

Guess a pit bar is a bad choice for a Gbody according to MAP.


SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1035958 - 03/06/16 02:06 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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spacemanspif Offline
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Sewell, NJ
What's a pit bar?


-Mike

F-body bucket seats, camaro console, carb'd 5.3/4L80E swap

Fastest time to date: 13.390 @ 102.42
Best r/t: 0.007 I got lucky smile

Killed a few cones too

#1035961 - 03/06/16 04:49 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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Buick Runner Offline
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Buick Runner  Offline
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Dharma station 1 the Hydra
It is like a brush guard, but its meant for ramming, it is what some cop cars have. It is named after the Pit maneuver.



A guy on Gbodyforum has a custom made one. I would think in most cases the extra nose weight has a negative effect on handling.


Last edited by Buick Runner; 03/06/16 04:50 PM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#1035994 - 03/06/16 10:27 PM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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Hunter79764 Offline
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Grand Prairie, Tx
I'd be willing to sacrifice the handling just for the "Mad Max" effect there...
Part of me really wonders if some 3/4" (1"?) conduit cut to length with smashed and drilled ends will provide some level of gain with minimal weight? It can only be loaded in tension and compression, and the loads are really not that high. Deflection difference between high strength, thick steel, thin wall cheap steel, and aluminum really isn't much, so as long there's not permanent deflection (failure), it should be a significant structural gain over no brace at all, at the weight expense of... 5' of EMT and a couple bolts?
I'll be working on the car in a couple weekends doing a front end rebuild. I don't know that I'd be able to really tell a difference since I only drive it occasionally and not in any type of handling competition, but maybe it will be noticeable...
I'll report back if I go through with it.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#1036052 - 03/08/16 01:39 AM Re: Another front frame brace [Re: spacemanspif]  
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MAP Offline
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MAP  Offline
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Yuma, AZ
Hi Folks,

What I wrote about weight on the front end was general and not specific to this particular brace. For only several pounds and the additional stiffness it affords - or at least the impression of that stiffness as reflected to the steering wheel and deduced from NVH - I think this brace may well be worthwhile for most folk.

Thanks,
MAP

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