MonteCarloSS.com
MonteCarloSS.com

CELEBRATING 20 YEARS!

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#999342 - 04/05/14 08:08 PM What first?  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
Is it better to choose my heads or my cam first? Can I choose a cam as an upgrade to my motor now and expect the same cam to work well with my choice of heads later? If buying new aluminum heads, is it better to go with Vortec, or can I find a good performance non-vortec head for roughly the same price range? I know I asked this in another thread, but that was before I decided to make a new one for this purpose.

I'm trying to figure out if I want to wait and do it all at once, or do a cam upgrade now and buy heads later.

#999344 - 04/05/14 08:35 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,552
GuysMonteSS Offline
10+ Year
GuysMonteSS  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,552
Kentville,Nova Scotia
If you were to ask someone that grinds custom cams for a living,like Chris Straub,he would tell you to pick the heads first,then get the appropriate cam.
Guy


GuysMonteSS '86 SS,513 BBC,AFR Heads,UDHarold/Bullet Custom Solid Roller Cam,706 lift,255/263 @ .050,Jesel Shaft Rockers,Balanced & Blueprinted,Doug Nash 4+1 5 Speed,Hurst In-Line Shifter,Ford 9 Inch Rear,SC&C Street Comp Stage 2+ Front End Kit...
#999345 - 04/05/14 08:38 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,170
pazzo1969 Offline
Member
pazzo1969  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,170
Mableton, GA
X2


President Wicked Rides/Wicked Montes Georgia chapter
#999347 - 04/05/14 10:28 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
Then that brings up another question. Based on the heads I choose, How do I know what the appropriate cam is?

#999348 - 04/05/14 10:43 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
Pearl, MS, 39208
Yep, definitely need to determine what heads you want to run before the cam.

Vortecs are killer bang for the buck heads when keeping things in the 400HP range with a moderately sized cam (lift in the .460 range). More HP and cam, it's probably better to take the money you would spend "prepping" the Vortecs and adding a little more to it for a nice set of aluminum heads like the Brodix IK200s for around $1250 - $1300 (worth the bump over slightly less expensive other brands IMHO). However, the AFR 210s at $1660 is a whole lot of head for the money and again IMHO definitely worth the $400 bump over the IK200s - understanding you have to put a cap on the funds at some point, lol.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#999349 - 04/05/14 10:45 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
But then would it be better to run angled spark plugs, or straight? I'm actually looking through the PROMAXX heads right now.

#999350 - 04/05/14 10:50 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
I found this little bit of information on a list of 8 budget SBC heads.

"The surprise of this test was the Patriot. In a prior test, we had found a set of Patriots to be only slightly better than a set of Vortec heads. Clearly, Patriot has made some intelligent port changes and come up with a solid-flowing head. The Freedom Series 185cc heads tested First in peak horsepower, First in average intake-port flow, First in average power, and Second in average horsepower per dollar. Whew! its difficult to find fault with a performance this strong.

Patriot 185cc PN 2168, $815.00
Peak HP 420 at 5,900
Peak TQ 417 at 4,300
Valve Sizes 2.02/1.60
Intake Port 185cc
Chamber 64cc
Valvesprings 1.430-inch-diameter single"

Read more: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccr...l#ixzz2y3T5DTIW

#999351 - 04/05/14 10:51 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
Pearl, MS, 39208
You pick the cam to "tune" or maximize the RPM band you want the engine to run it. It's not as simple as this,, but the heads minimal cross-sectional area and engine displacement dictates the maximum RPM POTENTIAL and the head flow and compression determines the maximum POTENTIAL horsepower. Everything else more or less maximizes or tunes the combination to your desired operating band. It's a bit of an art to selecting all the parts to get the engine AND the car working "perfectly" (together) and delivering the expected results.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#999352 - 04/05/14 11:04 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
Right now I figure the maximum RPM is about 5500, that's redline for a stock Monte SS, which mine (aside from being a 350) is mostly stock, but soon to change.

400HP would be great for now, but I'm sure I'll end up wanting more. And as soon as I get another car as a daily driver, this one will probably end up getting collector plates and only being taken out occasionally, as a street legal, or should I say, somewhat street-friendly, drag car.

Last edited by WingsOfDarkness; 04/05/14 11:06 PM.
#999353 - 04/05/14 11:09 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
Pearl, MS, 39208
I've never run the Patriot heads, but a friend just bought a set. I actually told him about the article you posted. He called them and they convinced him to go with the 190cc version at $950 (saying they were worth the $100 bump).

They do look pretty good for the money. However, I know the IK200 deliver, capable of making over 550HP out of the box on a pump gas 383 with a moderately sized hydraulic roller. There's no question if I had the extra $300, I'd go with the IK200s over the ProMaxx/Patriot 190s at $950. In fact,, I'd probably skimp on other areas of the build to make up the difference. However, if I were strapped for cash, based on that article, it does look like they're worth the bump up from the Vortecs.

Angle vs straight,,, back when the angle plug heads first came out they did make a bit more power than the straight plugs. However, these days,, at least on some heads, like the AFR heads, they're "repositioned" and there's very little power difference (according to Tony Mammo). I personally still buy the angle plug heads - only way I'd buy straight would be if there weren't any headers available for the application that would work with angle plugs (most all will).


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#999356 - 04/05/14 11:22 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
I'm not planning on turning this one into a 383. Figure I'll keep it as a 350, and if I decide to go bigger later, when I have lots of money and time to build one from the ground up, then that might become an option. But most of what I'm getting now would be able to swap over onto something bigger if I went that route later, right?

These are the headers I have on.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/big-11108flt/overview/

Only other engine stuff is EGR delete, computer delete, accessory recuction for less belts, distributor, and air filter.

#999357 - 04/05/14 11:37 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
Pearl, MS, 39208
Those are like the shorty 1.5" headers I ran on the 305 back around 1986 with dual 2.25" mufflers. Later I built a 406 and went ahead and got the new exhaust worked out on the 305 before swapping over to the 406. I bet I gained 40lb/ft torque at the stall speed and 25HP and 300rpm on the 305 when I put 1.75" long tubes with dual 3" mufflers. It was an INSANE increase in power for a basically stock 305 - from go to whoa. In fact, I remember that when I put those 1.5" headers on the 305,, I didn't think they made much difference over the ported "stock" cast iron manifolds. I'd strongly advise that you get different headers!!! If you're running an air delete panel, Schoenfeld 1.75" headers are a very good set of headers for the money.

#999358 - 04/05/14 11:47 PM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
When I change heads, I'm actually planning on changing the intake as well, to an air gap style manifold. The rest of my exhaust is 2.5" and will be getting switched to duals sometime this summer as well.

What exactly is an air delete panel? I just removed everything A.I.R./EGR related, and put a block off plate on my old intake manifold where the EGR valve was.

#999359 - 04/06/14 12:16 AM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
Pearl, MS, 39208
I was referring to the air conditioner delete panel that replaces the air "box" on the firewall. The Schoenfelds are "circle track" headers and the 1.75" won't clear the factory air box.

The biggest problem with the smaller diameter headers, even most 1 5/8" headers, is the opening for the headers are "oval" and cover a large section of the aftermarket "square" ports - which causes a flow restriction at the exhaust port.

If you're going to buy a different intake the Vortecs are even more of a "bang for the buck" head. I'm not so sure if I were you and was thinking about doing another engine later,, that I wouldn't go with vortec heads on the current 350 and spend the money on a nice 1.75" dual 3" exhaust system. I dare say Vortecs and a 1.75"/dual 3" exhaust would run circles around those $850 Patriots with those 1.5" headers and a dual 2.5" exhaust.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#999360 - 04/06/14 12:18 AM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,552
GuysMonteSS Offline
10+ Year
GuysMonteSS  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,552
Kentville,Nova Scotia
Here is a link to Chris Straub,he has a very good reputation over at Team Chevelle,lots of happy customers;
http://www.straubtechnologies.com/
Give him a call,you wont be dissapointed.
He can recommend heads as well as cams.
Guy


GuysMonteSS '86 SS,513 BBC,AFR Heads,UDHarold/Bullet Custom Solid Roller Cam,706 lift,255/263 @ .050,Jesel Shaft Rockers,Balanced & Blueprinted,Doug Nash 4+1 5 Speed,Hurst In-Line Shifter,Ford 9 Inch Rear,SC&C Street Comp Stage 2+ Front End Kit...
#999361 - 04/06/14 12:31 AM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
Oh, I removed the heater and air conditioning as well, and fabbed up a little delete panel to replace the box.

So do any headers have square openings, or just bigger ones to go around the square ports on the heads?

If I end up upgrading headers, I would probably be sticking with the dual 2.5" exhaust for a while anyway. Only reason I went with shortys was because I was doing my own custom exhaust setup tucked up as close to the underside of the cabin as possible, since I was planning on lowering it so much.

#999362 - 04/06/14 01:02 AM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA

#999365 - 04/06/14 01:54 AM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
BadSS Offline
20+ Year
BadSS  Offline
20+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,734
Pearl, MS, 39208
Hooker and others sell headers with what they call a SAP or Same As Port flange which better match the opening - they usually cost a little more than "budget" headers. If you can find a "SAP" or square flange 1.625" header then they will more than likely be better suited than a 1.75" header with an oval port for a 350 under 500HP. However, the less expensive oval 1.75" headers "fit" the performance heads much better than the 1.625" oval port headers.

I can't speak from personal experience about those heads,, I've been out of the business for so long. Canfield heads at $1,000 were the ticket 15 years ago, but considering that article and those 190 ProMaxx from Jegs at $773,, I'd probably have to try them out. My buddy is probably 2-3 months away from having his engine running,, and even then the engine's going to be in a 1970's 4x4 with 32" tires,,, so it's going to be hard for me to tell how good they are.


Original owner of 1985 SS black hardtop w/gray interior. Frame-on restoration - 406 sleeper w/ heavily ported FIRST TPI. However the 1.875" headers, 3.5" duals, TH400, Ford 9", notched frame, and 10-point cage w/swing-out bars might tip you off it's not a lil' ole 305 TPI. Other mods: 2" drop, 18" wheels, f/r disk brakes, and custom stereo system.
#999367 - 04/06/14 02:09 AM Re: What first? [Re: WingsOfDarkness]  
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
WingsOfDarkness Offline
Member
WingsOfDarkness  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 265
Sumner, WA
I should probably order them sometime then. Mine is already running and it wouldn't take much time to install these either. I can stick with my current intake and exhaust for a while, and just change those out later after I've driven it a bit to get a feel for the difference.

I really need to get a hold of a posi rear end as well.


Random Images
1019/thumbs/DSC01569new.jpg
by 88monteSScarlo
557/thumbs/Z65_Paul-10HQ1600x1200.jpg
by Z65_Paul
500/thumbs/524370_385748651449313_100000425430071_1353489_721056446_n.jpg
by xxRicochet88xx
1164/thumbs/IMGP6641small.jpg
by Witman69
500/thumbs/thmb_mikesss.jpg
by BadAssSS
Help MonteCarloSS.com


Recent Contributors
finallySS
Authorized Vendors
Tell them you saw it
on MonteCarloSS.com!


CustomMonteSSParts.com
Dixie Monte Carlo Depot
GSI Interiors
HRpartsNstuff
Mikes Montes
Savitske Classic & Custom
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0