MonteCarloSS.com
MonteCarloSS.com

CELEBRATING 20 YEARS!

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#986743 - 10/31/13 03:53 AM So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs...  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 370
Stig Offline
Member
Stig  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 370
Midlothian VA
So.....even though I'm pretty broke right now, I got bored and made a list of parts that the swap seems to require.... along with some prices I found online. As dumb as it may sound, I like to plan ahead, sometimes too far ahead. But I figured that as soon as I make a good amount of money I'll probably try my hand at swapping an LS engine into my car...and this may be a good thread to look back at if needed.

Basically, I made a list of parts that seem to be needed, and wanted to know if any of you guys who have done the ls swap can see if this list is missing any parts (or if there's better parts to use).

Click to reveal.. (Parts List)

Engine and 4l60e transmission with harness, ECM, and accessories – $1400 Total

(http://car-part.com)

Patriot Exhaust H8073 - Patriot GM Truck Specific Fit Headers – $271.99
http://www.jegs.com/i/Patriot+Exhaust/737/H8073/10002/-1

Trans-Dapt Performance Engine Swap Motor Mounts 4595 – $88.99
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-4595/overview

Summit Racingฎ Transmission Crossmembers SUM-770301- $229.97
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-770301/overview/make/chevrolet/model/monte-carlo

Grand National gas tank Fuel injection Upgrade or Gbody FI conve - $475.00
http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info.p...2ecc68c947ddda6

Gardner Bender 15-Pack 24-in Nylon Heavy-Duty – $7.53
http://www.lowes.com/pd_292681-1781-45-524NL_0__?productId=3201645&Ntt=heavy+duty+cable+tie&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dheavy%2Bduty%2Bcable%2Btie&facetInfo

GBodyParts.com Stainless Radiator Top Plate - $124.95
http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=692

Dayco Curved Radiator Upper Hose from 99 Camaro – $21.99
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/...m=radiator+hose

Dayco Curved Radiator Lower Hose from 2004 Silverado 23.99
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/...or+hose+-+lower

LS1 F- Body Throttle Cable – $24.99
http://www.improvedracing.com/air-fuel-d...40b309e760f2f5f

Corvette MAF sensor – $109.99
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_mass-air-flow-sensor-%28maf%29--remanufactured-cardone_18060083-p?searchTerm=maf+sensor

Wiring harness reprograming (eBay)– $405.00
www.ebay.com/itm/wiring-harness-rewire-s...215&vxp=mtr

Exhaust work to adapt exhaust to shorty headers - $200
(Local Exhaust Shop)

Resize Driveshaft: $150
(Local Machine shop)

Dodge Intrepid Cooling fan – $35.00
(Local Yard)

Misc Parts - $500 (I like to stay on the safe side)

About $5000-ish total

Last edited by Ricardo Montalban; 10/31/13 03:57 AM.


85 Monte Carlo SS(Sold)
91 GMC Syclone (Sold)
95 Subaru Impreza (Sold)
#986773 - 10/31/13 03:39 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,215
Jameson Offline
15+ Year
Jameson  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,215
Elizabeth City, NC
Truck headers won't fit between our frames rails. You can get a 4.8/5.3 much cheaper then 1400$. And converting your harness to stand alone is not as hard to do as well as familiarize yourself with the harness and system. Plus I like the piece of mind that I did the work and can troubleshoot it, I've read so many times about people getting a bad or messed up conversion harness.

Your 5k mark is about right though, but I also see nothing about fuel lines, pump and driveshaft. Also the upper radiator hose is specific to water pump used (truck or car)

Please don't take this as me bashing your list, more along the lines of constructive criticism as I've been down this road lol.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#986776 - 10/31/13 04:00 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,479
87ChooChoo Offline
10+ Year
87ChooChoo  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,479
las Vegas, NV
Might consider an LS1 fan instead of the Intrepid fan. Computer and harness may already be set up to use it.


85 El Camino Choo Choo with L31 350 Crate, TPI, Serp, TES Headers, GN 200-4r, 3.73 8.5 GN Posi, Acura Buckets, '04 GP Console, Electric Mirrors, Electronic HVAC, ZQ8 wheels, Blazer front brakes, LS1 rear brakes, and more....
https://sites.google.com/site/darbyselky/home
#986779 - 10/31/13 04:10 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,608
BuzzLOL Offline
Member
BuzzLOL  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,608
Toledo, Ohio
. This is opposed to the cost of swapping in a used Gen.1 350" which starts at only the $100-200 or more for the engine if you do the work yourself and use all the old accessories/tranny/exhaust...


'86 Monte LS (total'd Fall '2013), '87 GTA TransAm TPI350 TH700-R4, '85 Fiero 5-speed, '75 MG Midget Buick Alum.V8 BW 5-speed manual, '77 Pontiac Astre Formula wagon 5-speed posi, '78 F150 4WD 351"M ==> 400" C6, '79 Caddy Seville Olds EFI 350" TH400, 19' Slickcraft 425HP 351W MerCruiser I/O
#986792 - 10/31/13 08:07 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: BuzzLOL]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 370
Stig Offline
Member
Stig  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 370
Midlothian VA
Originally Posted By: Jameson
Truck headers won't fit between our frames rails. You can get a 4.8/5.3 much cheaper then 1400$.


I read somewhere that the shorty headers for an s10 are a perfect fit. I'm guessing the guy who said that was wrong? What about the pacesetters for an fbody? Are they more of a pain then they are worth?

Quote:
And converting your harness to stand alone is not as hard to do as well as familiarize yourself with the harness and system. Plus I like the piece of mind that I did the work and can troubleshoot it, I've read so many times about people getting a bad or messed up conversion harness.


Wiring is the only thing I absolutely refuse to mess with. But, then again, I have a family member that would probably be able to do it, so maybe I could ask him.

Quote:
Your 5k mark is about right though, but I also see nothing about fuel lines, pump and driveshaft.


Any perticular part numbers that should be used?

Quote:
Also the upper radiator hose is specific to water pump used (truck or car)


I see. Thanks.

Quote:
Please don't take this as me bashing your list, more along the lines of constructive criticism as I've been down this road lol.


Oh, no. You have me exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.


Originally Posted By: 87ChooChoo
Might consider an LS1 fan instead of the Intrepid fan. Computer and harness may already be set up to use it.


I'll keep that in mind. I'm guessing that getting one from an fbody would be best?

Originally Posted By: BuzzLOL
. This is opposed to the cost of swapping in a used Gen.1 350" which starts at only the $100-200 or more for the engine if you do the work yourself and use all the old accessories/tranny/exhaust...


Most gen1 350's don't allow one to get 25+ mpg highway.



85 Monte Carlo SS(Sold)
91 GMC Syclone (Sold)
95 Subaru Impreza (Sold)
#986793 - 10/31/13 08:17 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,215
Jameson Offline
15+ Year
Jameson  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,215
Elizabeth City, NC
I was on my phone when I replied, So I didn't click the links and assumed by truck headers you meant the fullsize Silverado headers.


1988 Monte Carlo SS Eaton 112 5.3/T56 swap, Way to many mods to list.
2015 GMC Sierra Denali



#986794 - 10/31/13 08:23 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,396
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,396
Yuma, AZ
Actually, Buzz brings up a very good point. With all the talk and enthusiasm about LS swaps, sometimes it's easy to get caught up in the excitement and forget exactly what such a swap really costs and what it really buys you.

A well-designed Gen-1 motor can probably get you about 90-99% of the performance of an equivalent LS motor, but you've got to be smart about what parts you choose to put together. This is especially for the cylinder heads. On the fuel economy front, the real difference is fuel injection. So, find an SBC-1 that came with EFI, or take the money saved by not going with an LS swap, and put that into some aftermarket system. My guess is that total cost either way may be roughly comparable.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 10/31/13 09:47 PM.
#986797 - 10/31/13 09:22 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,238
Hunter79764 Offline
10+ Year
Hunter79764  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,238
Grand Prairie, Tx
You will need fuel lines from an FI G body (I reused my 4.3 TBI factory lines without much problem), and probably a Walbro 255 pump for a reasonable performance setup.
If you want to have AC, you will probably end up spending some money there as well. Stock compressors tend not to fit unless you notch the crossmember, but there are AC relocation brackets that may help. Just something to look at.

As far as total cost, I went dirt cheap with an already-EFI car and had a little over $2000. $5k for a decent swap should be about right.

And as far as Gen I vs LS, to get a Gen I close to LS, it needs to be EFI like MAP said. That means either TBI (not the greatest for performance), TPI, or LT1 to stay with factory systems. These setups are getting rarer (although you can still find them), and will NEED upgraded parts to match a factory LS on power output. The computer systems are probably no less complicated, and the fuel system would be very similar. Aftermarket setups will be a few thousand by the time you get the bits and pieces you need to finish the install. That means you basically you will spend $3000 for a fuel injection setup (computer/fuel/injection/coils/throttle body etc.) one way or the other.

If that goes on a Gen I that is a cheaper base motor, you may have budget room for new heads and cam to get decent/efficient power. If you have an LS, you will use that money on headers, adapter mounts, and maybe a few odds and ends. I leave the transmission out of it, because if you are happy with your transmission now, you can keep it. If it needs to be upgraded for the power you want to run, you will have to do that either way.
You will still end up with 3-400 streetable HP for about the same money, assuming the Gen I was actually cheaper. I can find 5.3's with plenty of life for $300 all day long, but finding a 300 horse 350 Gen I in decent shape means it is either a crate motor for a few thousand or a recently rebuilt motor that you hope was built right, or rebuilding your own for possibly a lot more than $300.
As far as reusing stock accessories, personally I was happy to lose the 25 year old AC compressor, power steering pump, and alternator running on 4 V belts in favor of a late model serpentine setup with parts readily available (I had to go to 3 different stores to get an alternator for my old setup, but the new one can be found anywhere).

Ultimately, I thought it was well worth it, especially since I didn't have many perfectly good SBC parts already on the car, but obviously everyone's car, preference, goals, etc is different. Good job thinking things through ahead of time though.


Shawn

'85 MC with budget 5.3L swap, TH350 with stock 2.14 rear end
It ain't much off the line, but it's nice on the highway
#986803 - 10/31/13 10:31 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,396
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,396
Yuma, AZ
Hi Hunter,

Thanks for shedding more light on that. I continue to get the impression that the cost is very roughly comparable, with a few thousand dollars that could go either way (!) depending on build particulars.

Best,
MAP

Last edited by MAP; 10/31/13 10:34 PM.
#986827 - 11/01/13 01:46 AM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,671
gmachinz Offline
10+ Year
gmachinz  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,671
Des Moines, Iowa
I went a different direction and picked up a perfectly smooth running 95 Roadmaster Wagon with an LT1 for $1200 for my Monte project. Other than a TBI 4.3 fuel tank, the drivetrain is a direct swap. With the right offset, I can also use the stock 8.5" 3.73 Auburn posi rear, and throw the b-body spindle stuff on with aftermarket upper arms. Dollar for dollar, its a pretty good setup. ill have about $2200 into the whole swap over and, that gets me auto climate control, auto headlight conversion, power antenna, ABS, etc. I would look for a complete LS donor car.


gbodyparts1234@yahoo.com

HARNESSWORX
#986848 - 11/01/13 12:12 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,129
SS Ninja Offline
15+ Year
SS Ninja  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,129
Stoughton, MA
In terms of the gas tank and sending unit, you can find them for less elsewhere.

Gas tank: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C7QKT6/ref=oh_details_o06_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Little less at Rockauto but works out to about the same with shipping. Look up part number GM307C

Sending unit:

http://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-FG...keywords=FG156A

Same parts that you linked to above.



A hotwire kit is also a good idea: http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPWH-006&eq=&Tp=


Alternatively, you can buy the pump and sending unit as a package from Racetronix as well: http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS-G7W255&eq=&Tp=


1987 Monte Carlo SS: The toy
Click here for my build thread
1987 Monte Carlo LS: Daily Driver
Build thread for the LS
#986883 - 11/01/13 09:52 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: SS Ninja]  
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 370
Stig Offline
Member
Stig  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 370
Midlothian VA
Originally Posted By: gmachinz
I went a different direction and picked up a perfectly smooth running 95 Roadmaster Wagon with an LT1 for $1200 for my Monte project. Other than a TBI 4.3 fuel tank, the drivetrain is a direct swap. With the right offset, I can also use the stock 8.5" 3.73 Auburn posi rear, and throw the b-body spindle stuff on with aftermarket upper arms. Dollar for dollar, its a pretty good setup. ill have about $2200 into the whole swap over and, that gets me auto climate control, auto headlight conversion, power antenna, ABS, etc.


So with the LT1 setup, the engine, and trans are pretty much a direct bolt in?

I'm guessing the following mods were needed:

700r4/4l60 crossmember
Driveshaft length changed
Gas tank/sending unit/pump for a FI car
Modified or standalone harness.

Anything else?

Seems that roadmasters are pretty easy to get for about $1200 as well....

This is definetly another option.


Quote:
I would look for a complete LS donor car.


Seeing as how I can sell off the other parts from a camaro/firebird pretty easily, I may do that. That way I could also rip out the seats and some of the oother fbody goodies while I'm at it. I found a few LS1 fbody cars in my area for about 4k, which is reasonable if the engine and trans are ok.

Originally Posted By: SS Ninja
In terms of the gas tank and sending unit, you can find them for less elsewhere.

Gas tank: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C7QKT6/ref=oh_details_o06_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Little less at Rockauto but works out to about the same with shipping. Look up part number GM307C

Sending unit:

http://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-FG...keywords=FG156A

Same parts that you linked to above.



A hotwire kit is also a good idea: http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPWH-006&eq=&Tp=


Alternatively, you can buy the pump and sending unit as a package from Racetronix as well: http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=FPS-G7W255&eq=&Tp=


Thanks for the info, and the links.

Last edited by Ricardo Montalban; 11/01/13 10:09 PM.


85 Monte Carlo SS(Sold)
91 GMC Syclone (Sold)
95 Subaru Impreza (Sold)
#987044 - 11/04/13 08:02 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: MAP]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,608
BuzzLOL Offline
Member
BuzzLOL  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,608
Toledo, Ohio
Originally Posted By: MAP
On the fuel economy front, the real difference is fuel injection. So, find an SBC-1 that came with EFI, or take the money saved by not going with an LS swap, and put that into some aftermarket system. -MAP


.. Actually, the late 1980's Monte LS with 305" V8, 200-4R tranny, and Q-Jet carb. was factory rated at 25 MPG Hiway, so that would be a good starting point for thinking about how to get similar MPG from, say, an improved carb'd 350" Gen.1 engine... before VVT (variable valve timing) and DI (direct injection), the EFI V8 vehicles of similar size/weight were rated about the same as Q-Jet ones for MPG... most of the later improvements in MPG from the horrible early 1970's Dark Ages of Engines came from internal engine improvements such as higher compression ratio, better quench effects, smarter cam designs, better piston top designs, and better combustion chamber shapes... which can be easily added to older Gen.1 engines with carefully chosen used and/or aftermarket parts... factory stock MPG essentially doubled in late 1970's and 1980's compared to early 1970's, all still using carb.s, especially the sophisticated Q-Jet carb... improvements in MPG after that were slight, if any, even using EFI... until VVT and even more sophisticated computer software controlling the EFI came along...


'86 Monte LS (total'd Fall '2013), '87 GTA TransAm TPI350 TH700-R4, '85 Fiero 5-speed, '75 MG Midget Buick Alum.V8 BW 5-speed manual, '77 Pontiac Astre Formula wagon 5-speed posi, '78 F150 4WD 351"M ==> 400" C6, '79 Caddy Seville Olds EFI 350" TH400, 19' Slickcraft 425HP 351W MerCruiser I/O
#987069 - 11/05/13 03:22 AM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,105
Buick Runner Offline
10+ Year
Buick Runner  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,105
Dharma station 1 the Hydra
I agree with Buzz, you can get very good MPGs with carburetors. I think the reason most people assume carbs are poor for MPGs is due to most people being used to aftermarket racing carbs like Holley and Eddy which are not designed for MPGs like the Qjet and other factory carbs were. Also that carb tuning is a dying black art these days. Then there are crappy "reman" carbs that are nowhere near spec or cheap generic parts from the chain stores. How many times have we seen people rip out their CCC Qjets for aftermarket carbs and then complain that both their MPGs and power were worse. Heck Smokey got 51 MPGs out of an iron duke without EFI or computers.

Other factors are how well the engine was maintained and nothing is worn out or going bad. I suspect alot of G bodies are driving around with many worn out tune up parts. Also driving habits really affect your MPGs. No matter how your fuel is injected or what your engine block is made of, if you stomp the throttle all the time your MPGs are not going to be good.


Last edited by Buick Runner; 11/05/13 05:55 AM.

SBC powered 1987 Regal with TES headers, ZZ4 intake, ZZ4 PROM chip, mini starter, THM2004R, 2500 stall converter, 2040 cam, CCC system, and 3.73 posi rear.

2008 ex NPS P71 Crown Victoria, cop motor, cop shocks, cop brakes, and Jmod.

Never argue with an idiot.
They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
#987094 - 11/05/13 07:11 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,396
MAP Offline
15+ Year
MAP  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 4,396
Yuma, AZ
Q-jets are indeed an amazing carburetor for performance and economy. And the few living experts on that carb are probably in retirement or close to contemplating it. It's a tough carburetor to tune - at least for me. And, if the OP is looking for more power than the original motors that Q-jets came with, then it's a given that custom tuning will be needed.

The question of mindset strongly enters here: if one is "analog" and works well with mechanical things, then learn carburetors. If one is "digital" and is more comfortable with a keyboard, then go EFI, but go with something reasonably new. wink EFI systems are much more complex than carburetors, and unlike carburetors, when something breaks, it may easily die completely, rather than go gradually out of calibration as would a carburetor.

Last edited by MAP; 11/05/13 07:18 PM.
#987096 - 11/05/13 07:40 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,671
gmachinz Offline
10+ Year
gmachinz  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,671
Des Moines, Iowa
All correct except for the ECM...I'm using the stock Roadmaster LT1 ECM for now. I already have a complete LT4 top end for it.....as well as an Fbody Vortec centrifical supercharger for it. I have a friend who is designing an ECM interface to tune the stock ECM so I can push about 8-9 psi through the LT1. Looking for around 550 HP and at least 600 ft lbs of torque. My target weight is 3100 lbs fully loaded. Should make for a fun roadcourse Monte. We shall see.

Last edited by gmachinz; 11/05/13 07:41 PM.

gbodyparts1234@yahoo.com

HARNESSWORX
#987706 - 11/12/13 12:26 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 647
jmireles Offline
10+ Year
jmireles  Offline
10+ Year
Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 647
El Paso, Tx
GM,
Have you looked into EFI Connection? This company makes kits to convert the LT1 ignition system to that used by LS motors... Eliminating the opti spark. I was going to use the LT1/4L60e out of a '95 Z28 (I have the whole car too!) until I recently purchased an LS2/4L60e out of a '06 GTO.


-'87 Monte SS LS 2/4L65e Quick Perf. 9" w/disk brakes
-'89 Iroc Z28 Stock 5.7 Edelb. TES headers, Borla Exhaust90K
-'77 Trans Am 468(Stroked) Doug's Headers Flowmaster catback
B & M shift Kit 400 Turbo trans. Edel brock Performer
RPM Intake Sean Murphy built Rochester Carb. Restored
in '08. 3K
#987723 - 11/12/13 03:55 PM Re: So I was looking into LSx Swap Costs... [Re: Stig]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,079
blubaldmontess Offline
15+ Year
blubaldmontess  Offline
15+ Year
Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,079
Clarksville, TN
You can use icemans crossmember and save yourself a few bucks

http://www.maliburacing.com/iceman/

The wiring harness also needs to have the computer reflashed, I used a company from ls1tech. YOu can find them cheaper than you posted, but its all about how much feedback and if they are good or not.

For the Throttle cable I used the Lokar throttle cable for an LS1 from summit racing.

The swap always had a few little things but the people have been there and done that so you can ask questions and recieve answers immediatly. I scoured ls1tech.com and looked under the hybrid section to get as much info as possible. If you can't get the a/c system to fit under the hood, you can always use http://www.kwikperf.com/ for different setups/brackets.


I remember the days that cars were lowered and trucks were lifted

Random Images
500/thumbs/20121008_160846.jpg
by ray396
500/thumbs/IMG00122.jpg
by stevec_87SS
1164/thumbs/WP_20150417_006small.jpg
by Witman69
500/thumbs/kelly_charger_2.jpg
by donzss
500/thumbs/DSCF0835s.JPG
by TriumphoverU
Help MonteCarloSS.com


Recent Contributors
kevins88ss
Authorized Vendors
Tell them you saw it
on MonteCarloSS.com!


CustomMonteSSParts.com
Dixie Monte Carlo Depot
GSI Interiors
HRpartsNstuff
Mikes Montes
Savitske Classic & Custom
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0