MonteCarloSS.com

SSLance's Build thread

Posted By: SSLance

SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 07:34 PM

I started with a basically stock, low mileage, leaky and dirty underneath but solid body with decent paint and fantastic interior 1985 Burgundy \ Burgundy Monte Carlo and this thread will chronicle how I turned it in to the Monte I always wanted.

Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 07:52 PM

This first thread shows detailed pictures of what I started off with and the complete under body restoration cleaning it all up, repainting everything on the chassis and even installing the Crate 383 under the hood.


First winter project recap
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 07:56 PM

This thread shows everything I had to modify or change to switch all of my stock engine components and accessories over to my new Vortec headed crate engine.
Moving Stock engine parts to Crate engine with Vortec heads
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 08:03 PM

This thread shows me pulling everything out of the interior except the dash to check on the floorpans, Rust encapsulating the perfect floor pans, then sound deadening the entire interior before installing new carpet and putting it all back together again.


Interior Floor Restoration
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 08:05 PM

Lance , I’ve told you before what a great car you have . I did mine the same way but I was 18 inches off the ground , love that hoist .
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 08:06 PM

My most favorite mod yet...installing 2005 GTO seats in my car.


Late model GTO Seat install
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 08:14 PM

My latest upgrade, Quick Performance 9" axle install


9" Axle Swap Thread
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 08:16 PM

Lowering the car and adding a Sanden style Air compressor getting her ready for summer.


Working on the Stance and the AC
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/10 08:18 PM

New Wheels and tires!!!!


Installing a set of Billet Specialties Rally Wheels and Nitto Rubber
Posted By: gbodydude496ci

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/13/10 08:29 AM

that's a sharp car.nice wheels.
Posted By: javi05

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/27/10 10:43 PM

wow! what an ss you have there. very nice!
Posted By: john85ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/28/10 12:06 AM

you did and outstanding job man. A++ work
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/03/10 09:47 PM

Lance you still have my favorite car on the site.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/03/10 10:11 PM

Thanks everyone... I was disappointed when I noticed that I only put about 1200 miles on it this year. I plan on driving it a bunch more next year.

I've got a few ideas about solving the vibration problem it has that I'll work on this winter and maybe put some electric fans on it. Then after some new wheel locks, maybe I'll be more interested in driving it more.

For now though, she's put up for the winter.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/30/11 10:34 PM

When I did the underside of the car and rear suspension restore 3 years ago, I got wore out and wanted to drive it so I stopped at the front of the front doors. The underhood area just got pressure washed and a quick coat of paint. Now it's time to give the front of the car the same treatment the rest of it got back then.

What started out as an electric fan install and under hood wire cleanup has morphed into a complete doghouse restoration.

I've disassembled all the way down to the frame minus the front suspension (am thinking about going ahead and pulling the A arms while I'm at it (why not, right?)

Here is some pics of this and last weekend's work.

















Now comes the fun part, cleaning and painting the frame and all of the loose parts before the re-installation can begin.
Posted By: Sixtoes1313

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/30/11 11:57 PM

Keep it up!! looks good
Posted By: 85_SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/30/11 11:58 PM

Hurry up Lance - I'll drop mine off when you're done laugh
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 12:14 AM

It was a fan Lance ! What happened !!! …………… As always , looks great !!
Posted By: pazzo1969

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 01:14 AM

WOW!!!!! that's what i call a fan install job... what happened you drop all the parts to the fan and had to go looking for them? lol
looks great by the way. mike
Posted By: MY FYN 79

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 03:25 AM

Looking good Lance!
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 04:35 AM

popcorn
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 04:36 AM

Just pull the body and get it all over with Lance!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 12:17 PM

That's funny Jason, you remind me of all of my friends that kept telling me to have kids...so I could enjoy all of the same kind of fun that they were having raising theirs... wink
Posted By: jynxd1

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 12:26 PM

laugh
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
That's funny Jason, you remind me of all of my friends that kept telling me to have kids...so I could enjoy all of the same kind of fun that they were having raising theirs... wink


That's a good one Lance...... keep up the great work!
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 01:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Hey-O
It was a fan Lance ! What happened !!!



I can't wait to see what happens when it's time to do a brake job...Next thing you know, C5 spindles, tubular upper and lower arms...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 03:23 PM

Eh, I'm real good at taking things apart, cleaning up and painting them, then putting back together.

Where I suffer...is breaking out the wallet to buy new parts...
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 04:29 PM

See, I'm the opposite. I love buying new parts, but I'm terrible at cleaning them. lmao

By the way, I was researching wire looms today and saw your setup along with a link; That's definitely the style and brand that I'll be going with, thanks!
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/31/11 04:42 PM

Now I see what happens when you have a lift!! poke
Good job Lance, I'll be looking forward to the 'after' shots.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 02:21 AM

Got a little bit more disassembly and cleaning done today













Just a little bit more clean up of the whiskers, welds and surface rust with a small grinder and she'll be ready for some paint.

Then it's on to the parts... Man, there are a LOT of parts to clean and paint...
Posted By: pazzo1969

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 02:45 AM

mmmmm, nice and clean...looks great
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 02:50 AM

Lance that looks great! But why don't you pull the front clip to get the rest that nice?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 02:58 AM

Because...this is just an EXTENSION OF AN ELECTRIC FAN INSTALL!!!! laugh
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 03:00 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Because...this is just an EXTENSION OF AN ELECTRIC FAN INSTALL!!!! laugh


WELL THEN CHANGE THE WATER PUMP TOO!!!! poke
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 03:06 AM

lol... I really didn't plan on tearing the front suspension off, but it was SUPER nasty and even looked worse the more I took off around it.

Have I mentioned lately how much I HATE undercoating?

All pulling the front clip off would let me get too better is the top of the frame horns up front, and you can't see those anyway...so it wouldn't help that much and just be that more extra work I didn't plan on doing anyway.
Posted By: MY FYN 79

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 03:09 AM

Bet its gonna look pretty nice when its all done Lance. yup

I really need to do that to my car also.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 03:16 AM

I hope so Jeremy. Most of it won't really show that much, but in order to get to the parts that will show, you have to tear just about everything else apart anyway, so why not just do it all.

I wouldn't wish this kind of cleaning on anyone though. It is NOT fun. I put about 6 hard hours into it just today, and it is nasty work. Hopefully the hard part is just about over.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 04:43 AM

Keep at it Lance, you'll be glad once it all done. It'll be so nice that if you get caught in the rain you'll be home wiping it all down with a microfiber cloth. Just funnin' ya.

Attention to small details under the hood usually go unnoticed by 99% of the people that look under the hood, it's the 1% that are the reward.

Little survey for Lance: Who thinks he needs to install a stainless brake line set up front before he reinstalls the engine? Wwwaaayyy easier now.
Sorry Lance!
Bob
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 05:01 AM

Looks great man. Are you going with the eastwood chassis black again?
I'm going to be reaching about the same point by next weekend (hopefully) on our 442. Not a fun job, but definitely worth the results.

Got a jeep steering shaft yet? laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 12:51 PM

Thanks everyone, the compliments help ease the pain of my aching arms this morning.

The frame will be Eastwood Chassis black for sure. What I haven't decided yet is what color to paint the steering and suspension components? With all of them painted black, it all kind of blends together. I'm trying to decide what all I can paint another color to maybe have it stand out a bit, without looking gawdy?

What I've thought about doing is painting it all black, but replacing all the hardware with Grade 8 hardware, just for a little bit of color offset in there. Other choice is to paint the steering box, brake backing plates, and maybe the center link and tie rods cast metal color while leaving everything else black. Decisions decisions...



And Bob, I destroyed the front brake lines taking them off, so new stainless front lines are already on the list. wink And the Jeep steering shaft is supposed to be here on Tuesday.
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 01:57 PM

It looks great Lance ! Paint it all black like it was from the factory . Accent paint the shocks , dust cover and calibers ….. Nice fan … LOL
Posted By: PB86SS/87LS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/06/11 02:48 PM

popcorn
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/10/11 07:42 PM

I've been working on the small loose parts this week, getting them blasted and painted.

Today was the day to take these...







and spend several hours in the blast cabinet turning them into these....







I was going to attempt to press out the bushings and drill the ball joints and replace them myself...but on second thought, I think I'll just take them to someone to get them done.

I've got a whole day scheduled to work on the car this weekend, so hopefully I can get the frame finished up and painted. Then I can start bolting back on all of the freshly painted loose parts...
Posted By: 406monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/10/11 09:18 PM

Nice looking arms after the blaster. I did my own ball joints. It wasn't to bad with a good kit. That will look great when done.
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/10/11 09:53 PM

Nothing looks better then dirt and rust free parts . I had mine done to after I painted everything . The best part of working on my car now is no dirt and grease …..
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/10/11 09:56 PM

Lance your doing a great job man, keep up the great work! Oh by the way when your sick of the car I get first dibs!!!LOL
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/15/11 08:49 PM

So, last weekend, I hit all of the frame parts with an abrasive disc to clean up the majority of the weld splatter, whiskers and surface rust...






Then hit it with a coat of Rust Encapsulator






The majority of the loose parts have been bead blasted and painted. Just the rotors and brakes left to clean up and a few steering components to paint. The frame will get a few coats of Chassis Black then it'll be time to start bolting parts back on.

Sunday evening I cleaned the shop up, organized everything and mainly found all of the nuts and bolts and put them in their respective places. To me, that is the hardest part of doing this, keeping all of the hardware straightened up. Well, that and the nasty job of cleaning everything.

I've also got 3 boxes of new stuff on the way here from Summit. cool
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/15/11 09:06 PM

Way to go Lance! All clean parts make a car faster too!
driving
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/11 10:39 PM

So if you have 3 boxes of new stuff on the way from Summit that must mean you’ve made up your mind on the springs !! What ever way you go , I know it will be done right !!!!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/11 04:15 PM

I stuck with the drop spindles but am replacing the stock front springs with Moog 5660s. I'll probably get some ZQ8 bumpstops too to help with any rubbing issues if needed after that.
Posted By: Tony_SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/11 06:43 PM

Lance those 5660's are real stiff. I ran them in my 84 El Camino and I should have opted for the 5658's. If you do run them, I'd pair 'em with Bilsteins.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/11 06:52 PM

I've got a pretty new set of Edleberock IAS shocks up front now that I plan on reusing...

Right now, with the 1" drop Eibachs in the back, the back seems planted while the front is wishy washy all over the place. Kind of reminds me of the cars we drove back in the day with Air Shocks pumping up the back of the cars. I wanted to stiffen up the front quite a bit while keeping the ride height just about the same.

I guess we'll see how it does, I'll report back for sure.
Posted By: MY FYN 79

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/11 10:02 PM

Keep on truckin Lance. I give you a lot of credit, I would have been sick of it a long time ago. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/11 10:48 PM

Who says I'm not sick of it? laugh

Actually, I'm just sick of the cleaning parts part of it. Now the fun begins, putting all the clean shiny new parts back on.

It's been like Christmas morning around here just about every day this week...my UPS guy is beginning o wonder exactly what I'm putting together with all these new parts coming in.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 04:37 AM

Made a little progress on her today, got the firewall and frame painted.

And I know I keep saying almost all of the loose parts are painted...but I keep finding more to clean up and paint. Today it was the blower motor some small brackets, and the bolts off ot he fire wall.

Anyway, on to the pics.















Parts, parts, and more parts...just waiting to start bolting them back on now...





Posted By: BlueBoy84

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 04:52 AM

Coming along nicely!! All the hard work is gonna be worth it!
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 05:13 AM

Looks awesome man. Is that the satin chassis black? how much did it take you to do the firewall & frame? I just ordered 9 cans of the stuff to do the entire frame & firewall on our 442. + I won't mind having some left over if I feel like attacking the Monte laugh
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 05:26 AM

Looks like you're having WAY to much fun! At the rate you are moving along it won't be long before you be scrating your head, saying, "do I really want to start this thing again and get it dirty?".

Isn't it amazing how the stupid little details can slow you down?
Bob
Posted By: 85_SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 07:37 AM

Awesome work as usual Lance! Just let me know when you're done so I can drop mine off laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS
Looks awesome man. Is that the satin chassis black? how much did it take you to do the firewall & frame? I just ordered 9 cans of the stuff to do the entire frame & firewall on our 442. + I won't mind having some left over if I feel like attacking the Monte laugh



First everything was cleaned right down to the metal, even the surface rust was ground off. I then used about 2 full cans of Eastwoods Rust Encapsulator as a base coat\primer on everything. The firewall, inner fenders, and top of the core support took just over one can of Eastwoods Underhood Black and the frame took just over one can of Eastwoods Chassis Black Stain. I know the Eastwood stuff costs more, but one can goes real far and lays down super nice.



Originally Posted By: mmc427ss


Isn't it amazing how the stupid little details can slow you down?
Bob




I've got one little detail I still can't figure out what to do with, but I better quickly.

The stacks of shims on each upper control arm bolt. I put each stack in a separate well marked bag as I took them apart. I even took each bag and bead blasted the shims one batch at a time and rebagged them (so they are clean)...but I haven't figured out how I can paint them and still be assured that I get all of them back in the right spots again. crazy

You can't hang them on wire, because they are "C" shaped, so they'd have to be laid flat to paint and I just don't see me being able to do that (painting and dry time, both sides, all 4 bags worth) while still keeping them all separated correctly so they go back where they are supposed to.

I'm leaning towards just putting them back on in bare metal and shooting a couple of shots of Chassis Black over them once in place. Goes against my nature, but common sense says that's the safest way. Any other ideas?
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 12:55 PM

That's looking good and clean Lance. But I have to ask it....When is chassis black too much? Shouldn't the fenders and firewall be the body color?

That heat riser snout on the air cleaner is dated to the 60'S IMO. What do you think about removing it and having a nice clean round fresh air can? I think that would be much cleaner looking.

I'm only making suggestions Lance, I really love the car!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 02:00 PM

I actually bought a can of Garnett Red Duplicolor to see how close to the body color it was to do the inner fenders and firewall with it, but it wasn't even close. If I was repainting the whole car, I probably would do the inner fenders and firewall body color, but that isn't in the cards any time soon. The hard parts of cleaning and prepping them is done and the black will have to do for now. If it ever happens down the road, it won't be that hard to repaint them as the rest of the car is being painted. I faced the same dilemma when I did the floor pans underneath the car and came up with the same answer.

The only part about removing the snout on the air cleaner that I question is the guys that were doing the calculations on how much air will actually flow through the inlet on the cowl hood vs how much air the engine needs. I don't want to choke the air inlet down too much. Plus, I kind of like that 60s style air cleaner housing look, especially with the cowl induction part of it. I do have about a half pint of the paint used to paint my hood left over and am considering painting the air cleaner housing with it. We'll see though as that would be a HUGE departure from my nature.

I'm kind of trying to follow Foose's idea of the engine being the jewel that your eyes are drawn to when the hood is opened, and everything else is just background. We'll just have to see how it turns out.
Posted By: ss4ever

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/11 02:54 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I stuck with the drop spindles but am replacing the stock front springs with Moog 5660s. I'll probably get some ZQ8 bumpstops too to help with any rubbing issues if needed after that.



I know I am a little late on this but I thought I would drop my experience with doing the same thing. I had Moog 5660 springs and drop spindles on my 88 SS. There is no need in getting the ZQ8 bumpstops as they will not even come close to touching the frame before your tires are already in your fenderwells. If you want my opinion on what to do I would trim the springs a full coil and install the bumpstops and install factory spindles. On my car the tires rubbed pretty easily and often until I installed the Billstein shocks, they stopped the tire rub almost completely!

Keep up the great work, I hope I get to see it sometime this summer.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/28/11 01:04 AM

As far as painting the shims; you could mike (measure) each shim stack for each location so you know what goes where, you could drill a small hole in each shim and hang each grouping on a wire, you stamp or scribe a number on each for it's location.

Or just clean each shim up and reinstall. On your next alignment will probably end up with a few unpainted shim anyhow.

From the performance stand point I would stay with the cold air package you have. It's really hard to find a really sweet looking, shiny air cleaner that isn't installed on a 1000 other engines. One thing I would do is drill each of the 90 .220" hole in the perfed hood intake to .3125" or larger if you could. Doing the math 90 holes @.220" = 3.43 sq in to supply the air cleaner. Even drilling to .3125" (5/16") will only net 6.88. One 4" duct is 12.56", I run two 4" to the F-body air cleaner. When the Goodmark hood was first introduced I talked with a Goodmark rep at Carlisle, why the perfed intake sheetmetal? First, only the 1st Gen camaro cowl hood has no perfed sheetmetal to cover that intake area, it's wide open to duplicate the original Camaro cowl hood. The reason they put the perf there is to keep the trash that endes up at the base of the windshield from being sucked into the air filter. Without the perfed plate the opening is a little over 30 sq in, big difference between that and 3.43 sq in.

Another way to look at this is the sec throttle plates in a Qjet are almost 2.250" in diameter, times 2, is 8 sq in, add 3 for the primary, makes it 11 sq in @ WOT.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/28/11 01:33 AM

I've got a number stamp set, that is a great idea. Thanks. I could also mic each set as a backup just in case I fill the numbers in with paint or something.

Painted my inner fender wells today, I think they came out fantastic. No pics yet though as I came in to watch the race and now it's raining so I don't want to go back out there with the camera.

I used Eastwoods Rubberized undercoating on the underside and Under hood black on the tops with very careful prep beforehand. I think they look very nice.
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/28/11 01:57 AM

Lance , When I redid my front end I went to the guy that was going to do the alignment , he gave me all the shims I needed . Put it back together with bare metal new ones . Took it to him , he checked them all out . After the alignment I went home and Bruch painted them on the car . By the time they show rust and rot out I’ll be long gone .
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/11 03:24 PM

Reassembly has commenced...

Last night I got the motor mounts and control arms reinstalled. It's ready for Coil Springs and spindles now.







I also snapped a couple of pictures of my inner fender wells...just because I'm so happy with how they turned out.

Eastwoods Underhood black on the top side



Eastwoods rubberized undercoating on the bottom side.

Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/03/11 06:35 PM

What can a guy say , Looks new . Well done !!
Posted By: PB86SS/87LS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/04/11 01:44 AM

Looks great once again...my LS's wheelwells are out and I've been happy with the Dupli color semi gloss black, but tempted to re-spray with the Eastwood underhood black, hmm.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/07/11 03:45 AM

Made some major progress on the car this weekend. Suspension, steering, and brakes...all reinstalled.









I then started cleaning up on the engine a bit.


It's pretty fun putting clean freshly painted parts back together... especially when you can find all of the right nuts and bolts and you remember where everything goes... If things go smooth, I may have the engine back between the frame rails by the end of the week.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/07/11 04:21 AM

dats purdy!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/18/11 02:04 PM

I had the missus help me get the transmission from the engine stand to the transmission jack last night...so I took another 10 minutes and went ahead and put it in the car.

Here it is sitting on my new G-force cross member...



There is about a 1/4" gap between the humps on the cross member and the floor pans...guess that means my body bushings are still in pretty good shape huh?

While I had the good camera out, I also took some better pictures of the engine bay for your viewing pleasure...








That is the last of the big pieces to go back onto the car...now it's down to the bits and pieces of newly cleaned and restored parts to bolt back on to it.

Hopefully make some good progress on it this weekend. Probably do the rest of the firewall parts, then front engine accessories...then start in on the wire harness getting it all laid out and bundled up.

Last time I put the whole engine together and dropped it all down into the car at once. This time I basically put the bare long block in by itself, then the trans and now I'm going to bolt all of the little stuff onto it. Plan B has gone a WHOLE lot smoother than plan A did last time...for sure.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/18/11 04:24 PM

Great progress as usual, Lance! thumbs
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/18/11 04:54 PM

Looks good Lance, going serpentine belt?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/18/11 06:45 PM

I'm looking at test driving a set of March under drive pulleys a friend has made me a sweet offer on.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/11 10:41 PM

Pretty good progress today...lots of little piddly jobs done or almost done.

Here's a picture of my new hard fuel line from the pump to the carb.


It doesn't touch anything but the fittings on each end and leaves plenty of room for the alternator.








With the air cleaner on...



I got the wire harness all cleaned up, routed everywhere, and wire tied...but it's not in split looms yet. I was going to take pictures of all of the connections...but I ran into a problem that set me back about an hour or so...plus pissed me off.

I noticed that when we put the trans in the other night, the 4 wire connector from the distributor fell down between the block and trans case and I pinched it tight when I cranked the bell housing bolts tight. I had to basically pull the trans again to free the wires. By the time I got that fixed and the trans dip stick in place, I was done for the day.
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/11 11:12 PM

Lance , That’s as good as it get , well done !!!! I’m officially jealous
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/11 11:35 PM

Well thank Ulli, I'm not sure about it being as good as it gets...but I appreciate your compliments (and everyone else's as well).

I stole a lot of the ideas for this look from other car owners here...and I thank them for the inspiration. I didn't really know how it was going to look once I got it all together today. I've still got a little bit of tweaking to do on it, but I'm pleased with how it's coming along so far.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/20/11 12:04 AM

Looks great Lance!
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/21/11 03:01 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Well thank Ulli, I'm not sure about it being as good as it gets...
Lance , there are two kinds of engine compartments . The one is all chrome and aluminum and looks bad to the bone , the second is factory color with some chrome and looks bad to the bone !! The thing they share is the new rub all over me you won’t get dirty look . Clean and organize no matter what always wins IMO . You’ve achieved and surpassed both .
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 01:52 PM

You do nice work Lance!
Great job with the pics, it may serve as an inspiration for me to get off my rear and do some more work on my car.
spinning
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 02:25 PM

Thanks for the nice words...

I am in need of a little motivation right now myself...I thought I was getting real close to finishing this project up and hit another bump in the road yesterday.

I really REALLY want to be down with it...and soon...

Mother nature is calling with several other projects that need my attention, so I either need to get this thing buttoned up and off the lift quickly...or put it away unfinished so I can get some other things done.
Posted By: 406monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 02:46 PM

Looks pretty clean. I love the way you chose to have the accessories, intake and the valve covers the only thing that isn't black. It clean and very tasteful and appealing to the eyes. You did a great job. I just need to finish mine up also, but like you said I seem to have every other project pop up to do instead.
Posted By: Tony_SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 06:10 PM

Let me guess.... Yardwork!

That always kills my garage projects.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 06:51 PM

Exactly...

Not only do we have a large brushy area that we want to get cleaned out before leaves pop...but I've also just ordered (30) 50 pound bags of Pre- Emergent I need to get spread onto the lawn before too much longer. The lawnmower needs it's spring tune up and clean, the ATV needs the snow plow taken off and the spreader put on the back and the Wife's Tahoe needs it's oil changed before a trip out of town on Saturday...

And I've still got a large pile of brush from the area we started to clean out last fall that needs to be burnt.

Then we can start on the normal week to week yard maintenance that occupies so much of our time during the spring and summer...
Posted By: 406monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 07:01 PM

Sounds like my yard work plans. I am glad you said that I need to change the oil in the wifes Tahoe also before the trip to North Carolina this weekend.
Posted By: Malibu Monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 07:23 PM

looking awsome Lance!! I may have missed it somewhere, but where did you get the fuel line from the pump to the carb from?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 07:27 PM

Thanks Monte, it's come a long way since the last time you saw it.

I bent the fuel line up myself from a piece of brake line, then polished it.
Posted By: BlueBoy84

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 08:28 PM

Looks great Lance! Very nice work!
Posted By: MC87SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance

I bent the fuel line up myself from a piece of brake line, then polished it.


Amateur! poke



couch

Seriously Lance that looks awesome.
Great job on the wires, i thought mine came out good but you can't even see yours. Wanna come do mine, its warm down here.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 10:07 PM

Ken, you probably don't have any idea how many ideas I stole from your build thread to incorporate in mine...


hail
Posted By: MC87SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/29/11 10:15 PM

No way, you bring it to the next level. Top Notch!
Posted By: Malibu Monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/30/11 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Thanks Monte, it's come a long way since the last time you saw it.

I bent the fuel line up myself from a piece of brake line, then polished it.


very very nice Lance. We need to get together sometime so I can see the updates in person.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/23/11 10:19 PM

Well, I finally got just about a full day in on the car again...and got a ton accomplished. There are no big parts left to bolt back on, only just a few small ones.

I got the fender wells back in and the condenser and radiator in...plus everything back on the top of the core support.

Basically all I've got left (hope this list doesn't get too long) is:

Radiator and heater hoses
Pick up all new accessory drive belts
Spark Plug wires and distributor cap reinstalled
Change oil in engine
New pan gasket in transmission
Add brake fluid and bleed all brakes


Geez, and here I thought I was getting close to done crazy


Get new header collector bolts
Go back over all fasteners and make sure I tightened everything
Build some sort of bracket to mount the MAP sensor on
Rewire the electric fan relays again
Fire her off to make sure she runs, then check for leaks and or problems
Reconfigure E-brake cables
Then polish the hood, front fenders and nose cover (they've taken a bit of a beating during this project).


Wow...Maybe be done by next weekend???? whistle
Posted By: MC87SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/24/11 01:38 AM

Lance,
You don't really have to mount the Map sensor.
I used a longer vacuum line and tucked the Map sensor on the passenger side wheel well up by the blower fan.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/24/11 01:41 AM

I've thought about moving it but read somewhere that the longer vacuum line wasn't a preferred thing for the MAP sensor. I've got a bit of slack in the circuit to it, so I could relocate it.

Have you noticed any ill effects of moving yours? Is this on the 87 or the 85?

How's the 85 coming along anyway?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/24/11 08:06 PM

When it finally gets to the point of running out of things to do before driving the car again you always find a dozen more things to check, modify or do before making that test drive down the street. But that feeling of gratification when you pull back in the driveway is priceless. Enjoy!
Bob
Posted By: MC87SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/24/11 11:26 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance

Have you noticed any ill effects of moving yours?

Since i have no idea what the MAP sensor does i really couldn't tell you but no codes or drive-ability issues

Originally Posted By: SSLance

Is this on the 87 or the 85?

The 87

Originally Posted By: SSLance

How's the 85 coming along anyway?

Got it back together and drivable last Saturday. Liz had to drive it to school 2 days last week while my daughters car was in the shop.
I still need to hook the AC back up and clean up a few things.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/25/11 01:27 AM

Made a bit more progress today...enough so to take some pics.

















Radiator hoses
Heater hoses
Pick up all new accessory drive belts
Spark Plug wires and distributor cap reinstalled
Change oil in engine
New pan gasket in transmission
Add brake fluid and bleed all brakes
Get new header collector bolts
Go back over all fasteners and make sure I tightened everything
Build some sort of bracket to mount the MAP sensor on
Rewire the electric fan relays again
Fire her off to make sure she runs, then check for leaks and or problems
Reconfigure E-brake cables
Then polish the hood, front fenders and nose cover (they've taken a bit of a beating during this project).




Still got a few things left on the list, but shouldn't be any trouble getting them done this week....
Posted By: PB86SS/87LS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/25/11 02:18 AM

Looks awesome Lance, here I was proud of my LS's underhood cleanup until I see these pics laugh . Can't even tell it's a CCC car anymore.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/25/11 02:33 AM

drool
Posted By: tonys57chevy

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/25/11 03:45 AM

very nice clean work
Posted By: jameub86ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/25/11 04:18 PM

Car looks awsome Lance. I have been through your thread twice looking, which fan and radiator are you using? Thanks, Jim.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/25/11 04:22 PM

Thanks everyone.

The radiator is just a factory replacement aluminum w\plastic tank rad. I can't remember the part number but it's no special spec or anything.

The fans are Ramchargers. Pretty much the same as what came in the Dodge Intrepid and a few other cars.



I stopped at a few stores on the way to work this morning and picked up everything else I need (I think) to get it buttoned up. I may need to swap out a belt or two to get them to fit just right, but other than that...hopefully it's running in a day or so.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/25/11 04:38 PM

looks great Lance!
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/26/11 01:28 AM

Really looks good Lance!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/27/11 02:26 PM

Radiator hoses
Heater hoses
Pick up all new accessory drive belts
Spark Plug wires and distributor cap reinstalled
Change oil in engine
New pan gasket in transmission
Add brake fluid and bleed all brakes
Get new header collector bolts
Go back over all fasteners and make sure I tightened everything
Build some sort of bracket to mount the MAP sensor on
Rewire the electric fan relays again
Figure out why there isn't any spark to the plugs
Fire her off to make sure she runs, then check for leaks and or problems
Reconfigure E-brake cables
Then polish the hood, front fenders and nose cover (they've taken a bit of a beating during this project).



A little progress has been made...but still working on it...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/01/11 12:42 AM

Radiator hoses
Heater hoses
Pick up all new accessory drive belts
Spark Plug wires and distributor cap reinstalled
Change oil in engine
New pan gasket in transmission
Add brake fluid and bleed all brakes
Get new header collector bolts
Go back over all fasteners and make sure I tightened everything
Build some sort of bracket to mount the MAP sensor on
Rewire the electric fan relays again
Figure out why there isn't any spark to the plugs
Fire her off to make sure she runs, then check for leaks and or problems
Reconfigure E-brake cables
Then polish the hood, front fenders and nose cover (they've taken a bit of a beating during this project)
Shorten tie rod ends up a bit to allow for a bit more adjustment for alignment



When I took this video, the engine was cold...hadn't been started in about 5 hours or so.

Posted By: Sixtoes1313

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/01/11 03:09 AM

Looks immaculate!! Very nicely done- I too cannot tell its a CCC system at first glance. Should be a hit at shows
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/01/11 03:33 AM

Looks & sounds great Lance. The hard part now, as I'm sure you know, is keeping all that bling shiney!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/02/11 03:12 AM

bleed all brakes
Rewire the electric fan relays again
Shorten tie rod ends up a bit to allow for a bit more adjustment for alignment


and most importantly...

test drive


It was good to get her out on the road again. Still got a few small issues to work on and a lot of general clean up to do...but she's road ready again!!!
Posted By: Tony_SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/02/11 07:45 PM

congrats!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/07/11 02:51 AM

Well I took it out for an extended cruise this evening. I still haven't cleaned it up but I wanted some alone time with it and the roads were dry when I got home so... smile

First impressions...LOVE how it handles in the twistys. Much improved, mostly thanks to the new front springs I guess...and the Jeep steering shaft. The steering is SO precise now compared to before. Really like the ride of the 5660s, I don't find them too stiff at all. Was still able to stuff the front tires into the fender wells on a deep dip at speed, that sucks...

Straight line performance has picked up quite a bit as well. No mechanical fan, under drive pulleys, and a new PROM from John all contributed. It barks a second gear scratch at will now...which it hadn't done since I put the big tires on the back. No CELs and it starts and runs SOOOO smooth... I've still got some fine tuning to do on the timing but I'm very happy with how it runs now.

Now for the bad. I've still got a vibration and it's coming from one of two specific areas that I've found. The bushing in the trans tail shaft is wore allowing the yoke to wobble and the u-joint bearing caps in the same yoke are working their way out of the yoke letting the u-joint flop around.

Check this video out.



That was after the first test drive which included a thrashing and subsequent increased vibration. I then pressed the u-joint caps back in tight and re-greased the u-joint. There was almost zero vibration during the first half of my more gentle cruise this evening, then near the end in the twisties I goosed it a time or two and the vibration started to come back. Upon return I checked and the caps have started walking out yet again.

So for a minimum...the trans bushing is getting replaced, and most likely I'll get a new front yoke as well. While that is apart, I'll probably replace the u-joint as well and if I get my dander up...I might possibly step up to a custom built 3" drive shaft brand new from the front yoke all teh way to the rear u-joint.

I'm TIRED of messing with the damn thing...

Tomorrow she gets a good long bath and a little bit of detailing...then maybe another cruise if I can talk the little lady into going for a ride with me.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/07/11 03:12 AM

WOW that's pretty bad Lance. I would step up to the drive shaft also with a 1350 series Yoke and pinion.
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/07/11 04:11 AM

Very nice job , looks and sounds great !! I agree with Ron with a 1350 series Yoke and pinion.
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/07/11 06:40 PM

Wow, that yoke had a serious case of the wiggles.
The good news is you finally nailed the vibration issue machinegun
Those are frustrating to track down sometimes.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/07/11 11:02 PM

Cross your fingers that's it... laugh It's like trying to hit a moving target it seems. Every time I find something that could cause it, the vibration shows up again just a little bit differently...

In that video, the u-joint moving in the caps is about half of the movement you see. I'm kind of befuddled about that, that style of u-joint is the kind with the snap ring inside the yoke on the bearing caps. I can't figure out why all of a sudden the bearing caps want to walk out away from the u-joint and why the snap rings let them. Never seen that before.

I don't trust that yoke AT ALL now.

The drive shaft guy replaced it when I had my drive shaft lengthened last spring so he could get matching u-joints at each end...and I'm thinking he pulled something off the junk heap to use or something and the ends are wallowed out on it.

That yoke and u-joint did NOT wiggle like that when I put the new drive shaft in last spring...this I know. So something around those parts didn't get along for about 1000 miles or so to cause that mush wear.

I'll get her fixed up right this time though.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/09/11 03:11 AM

Glad to see you probably found the problem child. Sorry to see you'll be dipping into your pockets for more change.

I went the Denny's 3 1/2" HD alum with 1350s when I had a shaft made, was very expensive even 8 years ago. If you think you need to go the whole new shaft route I would seriously look at Denny's steel HD shaft, their least expensive shaft (no really), using 1330 joints.

You mentioned the shaft in the car was lenghtened, not sure why you would need to do that, unless a 9" would use a longer shaft than a 7 1/2", not sure about that.

Lots of time the U-joints are installed improperly due to crushing the yokes or overheating them to remove the old locking sealant. Most times it's the "haste makes waste" syndrome.

Never had to replace the tailhousing bushing in a 200R, someone on here said they have the tool, good deal there. A new bushing and new yoke should really help.

Stock u-joints are 3R size, 1330 is about the same size and strength, but not interchangable.

Spending a few more dollars, WELL SPENT, would be an inexpensive driveshaft loop, just very cheap insurance.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/09/11 03:32 AM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss

You mentioned the shaft in the car was lenghtened, not sure why you would need to do that, unless a 9" would use a longer shaft than a 7 1/2", not sure about that.



The amount of unpainted yoke showing in this picture is how far adding the 9" moved the yoke out of the tail shaft, about 3/4" if I remember correctly and also how far I lengthened the drive shaft.




Originally Posted By: mmc427ss


Spending a few more dollars, WELL SPENT, would be an inexpensive driveshaft loop, just very cheap insurance.
Bob




You aren't the first one to recommend that to me...I guess I should put it on the list.

It's going to be in the 90s this week though, so I may have to put getting the AC fixed in line before the drive shaft loop. wink

I'm just glad it's running again and pretty much all back to whole again.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/11 01:22 AM

For some reason the pictures just look better...when taken outside...











Just a few small details to take care of left and she's ready for the summer cruise season.

I'm still going to rearrange the Air Conditioning lines and get the AC system sucked down and charged back up and I have to get my new drive shaft installed, but other than those two items, this portion of the build is complete!
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/11 01:44 AM

Oh my god Lance I love your car!
Posted By: Gruvin

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/11 02:02 AM

looks fantastic! All the hard work is really paying off!
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/11 02:03 AM

I will concur that does look very nice Lance.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/11 02:19 AM

Thanks all... I'm pretty happy with how it turned out...for just a simple electric fan install project. laugh
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/11 02:22 AM

Let me know when your ready to sell it poke
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/11 06:59 PM

You might have had a pretty good chance to buy it when it started vibrating again right out of the box.

But that problem is fixed now....FINALLY!!!

Got my transmission bushing replaced today and my 3.5" drive shaft installed and she's smooth as silk at highway speeds now.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/11 07:16 PM

Lance, amazing work as always!

Would you mind re-doing my electric fan install as well? I can supply the adult beverages. smile
Posted By: BlueBoy84

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/11 08:44 PM

Well done! Looks fantastic!!
Posted By: 406monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/11 09:13 PM

Wow, that looks truely amazing Lance. I wish my motor compartment looked that clean. You are a true artist when it came to the engine compartment. worship hail
Posted By: 85_SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/11 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: 406monte
Wow, that looks truely amazing Lance. I wish my motor compartment looked that clean. You are a true artist when it came to the engine compartment. worship hail


x2 Awesome work as usual Lance!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/11 02:43 AM

Thanks guys... It means a lot to hear you say nice things about my car. Makes all the hours put into it seem worthwhile now that this phase is almost finished.

I have to say, I REALLY enjoyed driving the car around today. I never even did one burnout either, just cruised and enjoyed the smoothness of it.

Between the suspension and steering upgrades and the lack of vibrations now, it really is nice to drive. I feel like I've nailed the suspension and ride. It feels planted on all four corners, rides and corners flat, and just feels precise... without being harsh.

I still may try to come up with some sort of bump stop as the front tires will hit the fender wells on a hard bump but I'm happy with the springs, shocks and spindles on it now and how they look and work.

I looked back at my records today and I've only put 1000 miles on it in the last 12 months, that my friends is going to change this year for sure. It's WAY driveable now and I intend to...
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/11 04:07 AM

Hope the wife enjoys the ride.
Bob
Posted By: MY FYN 79

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/11 12:04 PM

Very nice Lance!

Glad it all came together for ya.
Posted By: ss4ever

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/11 12:54 PM

What shocks are you running on your car Lance? I ran Billstiens on my 88 SS when I ran spindles and Moog 5660s that I trimmed a full coil off of and after I added the better shocks the tires rarely got into the inner fenders.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/11 02:24 PM

Fairly new Edelbrock IAS shocks, bout 5,000 miles on them over 3 years or so.

I have to stuff it pretty hard for them to hit, it's not like they hit regularly... I've got a big downhill run on a 45 mph back road with a dip at the bottom that I test it on. they used to hit pretty hard on it before, now they just touch the fender wells...

I don't want to change anything else because I'm real happy with the rest of it (ride, stance, performance etc)...I think I'll just try to come up with a bump stop at just the right height to stop the control arms before they hit.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/19/11 02:02 PM

Wow that is freakin pretty!

Do you have the clips for the U-joint bearing caps? I've seen C clips that go on from inside the yoke and internal snap rings that go on from outside the yoke. The factory used some kind of plastic that you have to melt out to change joints. Either way, you need something in there to keep them from popping out. I managed to drive my S10 about 30 miles down the highway wihtout the clips once b/c I bought a U-joint and they shorted me the clips. I didn't know any better and installed it. Got to work and felt a terrible vibration once I got on base. Lucky it wasn't on the highway.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/19/11 04:19 PM

That u-joint in the video replaced the factory style with the plastic...and had the clips on the inside of the bearing caps.

I think the excess vibration from the trans being cocked to the side pulled the clips down into the yoke causing the play in the u-joint.

That's ALL fixed now, tail shaft of the trans is in line with the crank and rear pinion yoke, there's a brand new bushing in the trans case, and a brand new 3.5" HD drive shaft tip to tail including yoke. The new yoke has a 1310 series u-joint with outside clips on all bearing caps and the pinion yoke has a 1330 series u-joint with outside clips.

All of this equals...NO MORE VIBRATIONS for Lance... smile
Posted By: TPI Monte SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/20/11 04:10 AM

Congrats Lance, great job on the car!! Looks beautiful, and I'm glad you got her riding smooth now!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/29/12 09:50 PM

I actually turned a wrench on my car today, first time in a LONG time.

I'm going to drive the car in a performance driving experience at Heartland Park Topeka's 2.5 mile road course next weekend, so a brake upgrade was necessary.

I ordered some Porterfield R4 race brake pads for the front and some Motul 600 DOT4 brake fluid for a flush.

Got the pads and fluid swapped in today and took it for a little spin to bed the pads in. At first they braked about the same as the factory pads...then all of a sudden I started smelling them then the next hard braking broke the front tires loose, locking them up. shocked I haven't been able to do that...ever...with this car.

Just a few more small maintenance items to take care of and she'll be ready for the PDX next weekend.





New vs old...



Front Pads installed...



This helps a bunch when flushing and bleeding by yourself



I had the wife come out once it was all buttoned up to bleed them with the pedal the last few times on each wheel just to be sure.

They sure dusted the wheels up in a hurry on the little break in run, even though they brake about the same as I was used to before when cold, I don't think I'll be running these on the street.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/30/12 12:04 AM

Looks good Lance. We'll need pics of the event!
Posted By: MC87SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/30/12 12:50 AM

Lance,
What is special about the fluid? Is this just to flush the system then you add more fluid or do you mean just replace the existing fluid with this?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/30/12 02:45 AM

Thanks Frank, I'm pretty stoked.

The boiling point of the fluid is higher than DOT3. Apparently it is imperative to do this to keep from loosing your brakes right away abusing them on a road course.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/06/12 12:49 PM

Realized that I hadn't updated this thread in a while...so here I go...

I've gotten more into autocrossing my car this year, so some suspension upgrades were in order. After a lot of looking around I decided to use Detroit Speed Engineering parts for my upgrades. I picked up a pair of their 2" drop front coil springs, their front upper control arms and I put the stock spindles back up front to replace the drop spindles.

Stock height Moog 5660 spring on left, Detroit Speed 2" drop 575 pound spring on the right.



Stock A arm on left, Detroit Speed upper A arm on right.







Notice how the ball joint is mounted in the DSE arm.

The front end is about 1/4" lower than before...was hoping it would gain a bit as the front is now a full 2" lower than the back.

Car drives a BUNCH better than before. Front is much more secure. There are no rubs anywhere anymore even with it sitting a bit lower. The rear needed help next.




I ordered a pair of DSE's 2" rear drop springs and their chassis mounted rear sway bar.

Here is the rear springs side by side with the 1" drop Eibachs I took out.




The sway bar had interference issues with my stock lower control arms so I had to send it back, it's still on my wish list once I replace the control arms though. The springs went right into place with no problem, but the lowered stance caused interference issues between my rear disc calipers and the frame that took a bit of engineering to figure out. I ended up rotating the calipers to the forward lower position and this let the ride height stay low yet kept the calipers off of the frame.

Once all of that was on, a trip to the alignment shop was next. I found a place that the owners also road race a lot and they spent extra time on the car getting it just right.




It really wasn't that far off when I rolled it up on the rack. Just 1 degree too much positive caster on the passenger side really.

We elected for an aggressive street alignment that I'll run at the track as well until the driver gets much better.

What was also neat to see was at 15 degrees of steering input either way, it gained to a total of 2.5 degrees negative camber.

Also did a four corner weigh while there.

With driver in the drivers seat



Car empty

[/quote]
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/06/12 12:56 PM

Just to put a cap on the recent updates done... I started by looking for a way to fix the front end geometry on my car to keep from rolling a tire off a rim while autocrossing it and destroying a rim or possibly worse.

It evolved as did my thinking on what I wanted to do and with a lot of learning, a little bit of part purchasing and a little bit more wrenching...it ended with a successful weekend of autocrossing in a much happier car and a better driver as well.

I ran 36 psi in all four tires all weekend long and the sidewalls never even hinted at getting scuffed up and the tires stayed plenty happy even with 12 hard runs made Saturday morning about 8 minutes or so apart.

The car is balanced pretty well, driver mistakes can make it understeer or oversteer...and driver ability can make it stick well past what it should for what it is too.

I also road drove it quite a bit since the install. With 36 psi in the tires, you feel a bit more of the road irregularities but it's not harsh by any means. It just feels planted... nothing squishy about it at all and in fact, the rear actually feels better than with the Eibach springs, not near as harsh. One more plus, even though the front is about a 1/4" lower than before, no rubbing issues at all up front...even under high speed dips that put the tires into the fender wells before with the old setup.

Over all, I'm very happy with the car for now. Can highly recommend the Detroit Speed front and rear springs and even more so the front upper control arms. They are all basically a bolt on and make a completely new car out of your stock car setup.

Here are some pics I snapped yesterday afternoon after rinsing all the brake dust off the car showing the new stance.


2012-09-16_16-42-35_764 by lsvlance, on Flickr


2012-09-16_16-42-21_503 by lsvlance, on Flickr


2012-09-16_16-44-54_501 by lsvlance, on Flickr

Here is my thread in the SS at the track forum where I put the pictures and videos of the solo school weekend events.

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=943527#Post943527

Thanks everyone for your help and input into the latest project...can't wait to see where it goes from here.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/07/12 03:20 AM

The car looks great Lance, Thats the look I want to imitate with my car!
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/07/12 07:51 PM

x2, looks great, Lance.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/08/12 02:21 PM

On the way to the autocross early yesterday morning, I knew my path would take me down a twisty turny bumpy seldom used back road, and I already had the GoPro stuck in the back window...so I thought I'd do a road drive video to try to show you guys how the car s rides, drives and turns with it's newest suspension upgrades.

Unfortunately for some reason, there is a drone inside the car that makes it onto the video and makes it very difficult to listen to and the bright sun low in the sky washed out a lot of the out of the windshield views making it hard to see what is really going on. I'll post it anyway but I realize in advance it wasn't my best effort.


http://youtu.be/mBNc6OmSsVo


Then...on top of that, I think I left the camera on and it ran the battery down, so when I went to make my first run at the autocross, the battery was dead so I have no videos from the track yesterday.

Add that to the Chiefs misery yesterday afternoon and it was a full day of fail. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/16/12 09:18 PM

Okay, it's time to update the build blog I guess.

I'll be starting a T56 swap this weekend.

The 200R4 is tired, leaking, and not going to stand up to another season of beating on and just needs replaced. After some research I figured out that if I found the right transplant prospect...I could put a manual trans in probably cheaper than I could rebuild the 200R4 and come up with a better trans for how I'm driving the car now.

So I found an LT1 T56 take out from a 59,000 mile Camaro complete from flywheel to driveshaft including the pedals, clutch master cylinder and even a console. Best part was it was in Tulsa and I have a friend that works in Tulsa and comes home every weekend...so I sent him the money, he picked it up for me and brought it home a couple of weeks ago.

Since then I have been researching, asking friends on here for advice, and purchasing the rest of the parts needed for the swap.

Biggest additional need was speedometer related, going from mechanical driven to electronic. The Abbott box was my first choice, but ultimately chose to pick up the VHX Dakota Digital dash unit which not only lets me go straight from the VSS on the T56 to the electronic speedometer...but also lets me upgrade the rest of my gauges at the same time, all while fitting into the factory bezel and looking great at the same time.

So the John B pedal and the Dash are here today and I plan on installing those plus the clutch master cylinder this weekend while keeping the car driveable for another week or so. Then over the Thanksgiving weekend I'll tackle the rest of the swap. Hopefully by 11/26/2012 I'll have the measurements for the drive shaft ready and not that much longer after I'll be rowing gears.

Anyway, hang on...I'll document the process as I go along. Thanks to everyone here that has helped out by forging the manual way long before now, hopefully it all goes smooth for me because of the hard work you have done in the past.
Posted By: ss4ever

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/16/12 11:58 PM

I can't wait to see the VHX cluster installed on your car, I love the one I installed in my 72 Monte although I feel it is a little dark to see without the parking lights on.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 03:37 AM

I thought I read in the manual that you can control the brightness settings, both with the lights on or off?

I have to try to figure out where to put the control switches. Gotta lot of wiring to work up tomorrow, my favorite thing to do **rollseyes**
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 04:29 AM

Good time for a cam swap.......Just saying smile
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 12:39 PM

Good luck with the swap!

Can you just get a VSS speedo bullet for that trans? My ZF came with a VSS bullet in it and I swapped it out for a mechanical one (which was the same part as the one for the 700R4). Wasn't the auto alternative to the T56 the 4L60e? Maybe they didn't share the same bullet, but it would make sense to use the same part on both the auto and manual versions of the car.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 12:49 PM

Originally Posted By: 345HP87SSAC
Good time for a cam swap.......Just saying smile


Bite your tongue!! My goal is 4 weeks max before this is done and the car is road ready again.

This is not going to turn into another electric fan upgrade situation... lmao
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 12:54 PM

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Good luck with the swap!

Can you just get a VSS speedo bullet for that trans? My ZF came with a VSS bullet in it and I swapped it out for a mechanical one (which was the same part as the one for the 700R4). Wasn't the auto alternative to the T56 the 4L60e? Maybe they didn't share the same bullet, but it would make sense to use the same part on both the auto and manual versions of the car.


I never found anything about that bullet in my research, so I'm not sure. Did think it was interesting that the VHX gauges came with an adapter to convert a mechanical signal to a VSS though.

This is a sign of how sad things are though. I brought my reading glasses home from work (which I hardly ever even use there) because I know I'm going to be doing a LOT of squinting and looking at small details in dim light today.

We'll see how well they help this old codger see what he's looking at. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 01:08 PM

One thing I'm still struggling with, since my car is an 85, the console plate is pretty rare and in real good shape still. Should I cut up the one I have for the shifter or search for an alternate one to cut up?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 10:20 PM

Oh dear...what have I gotten myself into?



Dash cluster connections to the Dakota Digital control module



I ran the loom under the dash over to the glovebox where I think I'm going to mount the module and the switches.



Here is the new cluster fitted and placed into the bezel



Here it is lit up for the first time.




Still need to install senders and run the circuits for the oil pressure, water temp, and VSS and figure out why the tach doesn't work...but the fuel gauge and Volt meter work and it all lights up, so I'm calling it good for now.

Next step is to drop the column and install the third pedal. Then I'll get it up on the lift and start the removal of the 200R4.
Posted By: mrengineer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 10:23 PM

I would not cut the console plate up....I have yet to find a replacement one that matches in color and appearance. I saved my origanal and bought a "non matching" one instead.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/17/12 10:38 PM

Those gauges look HOT!

I'm actually going to vote cut up the original shifter plate & here's why. I don't ever see this car going back into stock form & if going through with a swap like this, it should still look like it came that way from the factory. It would bug me if the shifter plate didn't match, even a little.
Posted By: ss4ever

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/18/12 12:41 AM

The guages look very nice!
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/18/12 01:42 AM

It's only a car. Cut 'er up! smile
Posted By: Malibu Monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/18/12 01:49 AM

Lance I have two '85 shifter bezels. One is driver quality and one is perfect. LMK if you are interested.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/18/12 03:50 AM

How much for the driver quality one? Any pics?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/18/12 07:49 PM

I give up for the day... Time to watch some football and some racin'

Took the steering column and brake pedal assemblies out.



Modified the steering column bracket, attached the clutch pedal to the brake pedal assembly, cut the brake pedal down to size, then proceeded with cutting the holes in the firewall to mount the clutch master cylinder. Got it in place...



I'm missing nuts for the U-bolt that holds the master cylinder in place, so I called it a day.

Anyone know off hand which side of the firewall the U-bolt is supposed to go? And is there any chance I can get it bolted in place without moving the brake booster out of the way? It looks to be pretty tight in there.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/18/12 09:06 PM

The bolt goes in from the hood side. You can get it in place without moving the booster.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/23/12 10:56 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance


This is not going to turn into another electric fan upgrade situation... lmao




Famous last words... Got the trans bolted in place and right away noticed that driver's side header pointed directly at the slave cylinder.



mad

Did some shopping and today ordered a set of Hedman Shorty headers. I didn't want to do this but I've hated these headers since I bought the car. I decided on shorties just to make dealing with headers on a street car more manageable. These have 1 5/8s primary tubes vs the 1.5" tubes on my long tubes so I don't think I'll notice that much performance difference. I just hope these are easier to deal with as far as getting to the bolts, spark plugs and what not.

Cut the hole in the floor and with a little persuasion on the rest of the tunnel I got the tailshaft of the T56 within a 1/4" of where the 200R4 was with the rubber bumper on top of the trans just touching the tunnel.

Looks like we are going to modify my G-Force cross member by notching the front of it, boxing it in and extending a late tot he front of it for the trans mount to sit on. That option just seems better than modding the mount on the stock cross member or using the Iceman. We'll see how it goes.

Then, since I was stopped underneath and the headers had to swapped out, I removed both inner fenders, spark plugs, dipstick, starter, and finally both headers from the car. While a PITA, this will make everything else I have to do much easier as there is much more room to work with. Replacing the sensors and senders, running the new wires back under the dash, mounting the hydraulic clutch, removing the cruise harness etc etc...will all be easier to do now.

Tomorrow I'll start finishing up inside the car. Final install on the dash, steering column, pedals, and maybe even clutch Master if it all goes smooth.

I'll snap some more pics then.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/24/12 02:04 AM

Lance, what are the long-tubes that you're swapping out?

Now I'm curious about my Hooker long-tubes...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/24/12 01:25 PM

They are a Hedman 1.5" Don't have the exact part number right off hand.

They are now for sale btw...
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/24/12 07:46 PM

See you were just a few bolts away from a cam change!!!!!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/24/12 08:16 PM

I think I've got all of the new wiring circuits ran, loomed and up in the dash where they are gonna end up.

Here you see the VSS feed to the VHX controller on the right and on the left are the reverse light circuit and the key on hot for the reverse lockout.



This is where they go through the firewall, they basically follow the path of the old speedometer cable.





Also in that loom above is the circuit for my electric fans.

Here's the new oil pressure sender



and the water temp sensor



They run up to behind the distributor and along with the new tach wire go through the firewall here in the old tach wire spot.



I'm going to try to find a rubber grommet to fit the hole just for extra insurance.

New clutch master is bolted in and brake booster is bolted back in as well. The u-bolt is touching the back side of the booster, but I think I'll be fine.



This is where I'm at now...



I think I know where everything goes though. laugh

How butch do you guys think it will be if I put the VHX controller in the glovebox like this?



I can notch the top of the back edge of the glove box, drape all of the wires (there are a LOT of them) up over the top and down into the glove box, hook them to the controller then screw or zip tie the controller to the back of the box. What do you guys think?
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/24/12 08:30 PM

Nice work! Everything looks so neat & tidy, I think it's actually a shame if you were to put the VHX in the glove box with the wiring semi-exposed. Not sure if you are aware, but non-a/c cars use a smaller glove box, & if installed on a a/c car allow alot of extra room behind the glove box to hide add ons. That is where I was able to mount my ECM & still have a fully functioning glove box.
Just another option, but inside the glove box would make a good temporary solution until you could come up with a more permanent hidden, but easily accessible location.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/24/12 09:26 PM

Might have room under the console plate actually...now that the auto shifter is gone. Need to decide if I'm going to build stand offs to attach the console to where it used to attach to the shifter first I guess.

I've got an aftermarket breadbox which has 3 bolts holding it to the front of the console and the bread box has a bolt holding it to the floor. I wonder how sturdy it will be without adding any brackets to replace the shifter?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/24/12 09:38 PM

I also need a place to mount two small momentary push button switches to run the dash functions and my electric fan switch.

I just can't drill a hole in my dash plate or console plate for these...no way no how.

Thought about hanging a small piece of aluminum angle iron off the bottom of the dash next to the diag connector and putting them in it. Any other suggestions that don't involve drilling holes in factory trim parts?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/27/12 04:03 AM

Little progress made this evening...

Found a perfect spot to mount the controller to, then got busy and hooked all of the wires up to it.





The two momentary switches used to run the dash are all I have left to hook up, once I decide where to put them.

Next I'll put the dash itself back together, then the steering column and brake pedals.
Posted By: ss4ever

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/27/12 05:18 AM

I have a couple quick questions. As you may know I recently installed a VHX cluster in my 72 Monte and it came with two of the display cables and I had to use them both. Did this model come with two cables to use? Also I noticed that the control box is very similar to the one used in my 72 but I don't remember mine saying GPS Ready, kind of wierd.

The bottom half of my 72 dash is hard plastic and was already riddled with holes so I was able to drill a couple 3/8 holes to mount the buttons on the bottom of the dash.

Some G-bodys came with plastic to conceal the bottom of the dash, a person could mount the control box up under the dash and use the plastic to conceal the control box and wiring.

I know there are several different "Modules" that control different functions on the VHX clusters, did you buy any of them? With the way the dash is set up in my 72 the VHX cluster is extremly dark without the dash lights on, please let me know if you feel the G-body cluster is the same way.

Randy
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/27/12 12:47 PM

Mine only came with one display cable, the instructions said I could plug the cable into any one of the three display ports on the control module.

I didn't buy any of the extra modules for it...yet. We will see later if I want to add any on. I asked the tech at Dakota Digital about it being dark when the headlights are off and he said there is a setting in the setup to turn the display up when headlights are off, do you have the instruction manual for the cluster?

If not I can look through mine and find it and how to set it.
Posted By: ss4ever

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/28/12 12:00 AM

Yes I do have the instruction manual, I don't remember seeing anything about that but I will check again next time I mess with the car.
Posted By: dns87ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/29/12 05:09 PM

Nice work on the car, really like that instrument setup...have to look into that for mine
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/29/12 07:03 PM

Trans cross member is done

Here's what we did to modify my existing G-Force to work with the T56. I was the designer while John (Jynxd1) was the lead engineer and machinist. Thanks John...

The T56 transmission mount needed to be about 1 1/4" lower and and inch or so towards the front than the 200R4 mount was, so we cut a C-notch out of the front of the g-Force cross member.



Then tack welded plates to box the C-notch in and tacked a new mounting plate at the right height inside the notched part.





Then took it to the car and test fit to make sure everything was correct before final welding.







We got the height perfect. I removed the rubber bumper on the top of the T56 and the tail shaft height is now in just about the exact same height as the 200R4 was and I can fit a straight blade screw driver between the rear two cover bolt heads and the floor pan.

200R4



T56 on new mount





John finished welding it up and I painted it up and it'll be ready to go back in tonight.

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/30/12 03:33 AM

NICE!

First time I picked up a G-force crossmember I was struck by how heavy it was, that was 10 years ago and memories get clouded, but, it must weight 40 lbs. It's probalby to late but could you put your's on the scale next time it's out.

Your trans height looks real good! And you can see why it was necessary to know where the 200R output shaft centerline was to reference off of. Good job.

Keep the hole in the tunnel as small as possible. Hopefully you will be able use a GM lower boot.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the skip-shift switch need to removed? Is it energized to allow CAGS,or when not energized is CAGS?
Bob
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/30/12 03:40 AM

Great job on the crossmember!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/30/12 03:55 AM

Thanks...

I could still scale it, it's not in the car yet. I bet it's close to 40 pounds though, it is NOT light. BTW, it does NOT flex a bit when a transmission is set down on it either.

The tunnel hole is just big enough for the shifter plate to go through with the driver's side "flexed" out a bit to make room for the reverse lockout.

Hopefully the second round of Header roulette gets here on Saturday and is more successful than round 1. Got 3 1/8" taken off of the drive shaft today. Couple of small plugs here and there, handful of nuts and bolts put back on and it just might make some noise and move on it's own again Saturday afternoon.

Exhaust shop told me today if I could meet him down there on a Sunday, he'd be able to spend some extra time on it and bend it all up real nice for me.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/30/12 04:39 AM

You're making real good progress.
Throw that puppy on the bathroom scale. A stock SS crossmember is about 14lb, my thick wall GP was 17 lb if I remember correctly. Wouldn't it be nice is the G-force was alum, that would be cool. Your's should help stiffen the frame rails. Those lightweight tube crossmembers are OK for some cars I guess.

Searched but couldn't find an answer to my skip shift question, found 50 ways to defeat it on an OBD car though. You could put 12 vdc to the solenoid, shift it 1-2,2-3,3-4, you'll know qickly whether you need to remove the solenoid.

Good luck with headers, unfortuneately they are a necessary evil hot rodders need.
Bob
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/30/12 12:36 PM

Aren't the skip-shift delete kits just a plug to keep the fluid in?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/30/12 12:47 PM

I don't even know what the skip shift feature does? Never even heard of it before until Bob brought it up.

I'm still a bit confused about how to wire the VSS up as well. Diagram shows the two wires on the plug go to the speedometer and a ground. So I'm assuming the speedometer (in my case the VHX controller) sends power to the VSS and the number of times per second it grounds through the VSS is how the controller determines the speed.

My reverse lockout module should be here today, hopefully the instructions with it are clear in how to wire it in conjunction with the VSS so they all play nice together.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/01/12 01:16 AM

Skip Shift, or CAGS (Computer Aided Gear Selection) is controlled by the PCM, used to increase fuel effiency on GM 6 spd cars, still used today. When certain conditions are met, CAGS prevents shifting from 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, the shifter will only go from 1 to 4, skipping 2 and 3.

From some reading today it appears when the solenoid is energized is when it is in skip shift mode, so leaving the solenoid in will allow the normal shift pattern.

Skip shift eliminator kits "fool" the PCM into thinking it has enabled the skip shift mode. If you just unplug the solenoid harness the PCM will set a DTC on the OBD cars.

From what I've read there are several different pulse rates for various GM cars. The LT1 cars used a 17 pulse VSS. This from jagsthatrun.com
http://jagsthatrun.com/V8-chapters/V8-tpi-Speed-Sensors.pdf
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/01/12 11:11 PM

My G-Force cross member weighs just a touch over 25 pounds.

Hooker 2466-1 headers came today...looks like they are going to work. Pretty nice pieces really, I like them. More on them later. They came pretty late today so all I had time to do was mock them into place to see if they'll clear everything which it appears that they do.

Spent most of the day under the dash once again. Wired in the GRC reverse lockout module and built a switch plate to hang below the dash and mounted my three switches on it.

Also finished up the digital dash wiring and got the pod all back together with the digital, bezel (with headlight switch, remote mirror and rear defrost switch) all put back together.

Had to trim the floor just a bit more, then put the shifter in to test fit the floor boot from the Camaro. I had to reshape the bottom of the boot to match the tunnel, then screw it down to the floor and I think it fit pretty good.

Also bolted the brake and clutch pedals back in place. Was waiting until the headers were in to put the steering column back in to save room for installing the headers.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll get the headers in, steering column then inner fenders and wiring finished tidying up. The wiring takes me a lot of time. I'm not real comfortable doing it so I take my time and double and triple check that I"m hooking everything up right and have good solid connections before moving on.

Last will be to pull the trans once again, install the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate then put the trans back in for the last time.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/01/12 11:42 PM

Good progress Lance. What do the 3 new switches do and how does the reverse lockout look?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/01/12 11:51 PM

Two are momentary push button switches that run my dash and the third is a 3 position switch for my electric fans that I've have never mounted yet.

The reverse lockout is cool. Best thing about wiring it up was of the 6 wires to hook it up, 4 of them I was able to pull right off of the VHX controller for the dash. So I mounted it right next to the VHX controller behind the glove box, tied in the switched power, ground, and two VSS feeds right there, then ran the two feeds for the solenoid down under the console and out the old trans shifter cable (re-used that grommet) right in front of the solenoid.

My clutch pedal hits the silver box in the top of my fuse panel. How should I remedy that?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/02/12 05:28 AM

The silver box on the top right of the fuse block is the circuit breaker for the power windows, the breaker on the lower right is the one for the rear window defog/doorlocks/power seats, both 30A.

Crossmember lighter than I thought, good deal.

Are you keeping track of how many times the trans has been in and out, think I was close to 10 times the first time around. Keep on plugging away, still waiting for the "wow, feels like a different car".
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/02/12 01:07 PM

I have only taken the bell housing loose from the block twice since starting, both of those on the first day when trying to massage the floor for clearance and marking the hole for cutting. I didn't even take it out to cut the floor, just lowered the tail shaft down a bit.

I believe it only has to come all the way back out one more time, to install the clutch.

Can I switch those two circuit breakers? Is the other one smaller perhaps?

I put a washer between the John B pedal and the bracket because the head of the bolt for the clutch rod was hitting the pedal bracket when it was all on the bench. I'm thinking about taking the pedal back off, removing that washer and grinding about half of the head of the bolt away. That might just give me enough clearance on both sides, it's tight though.

Using a different bolt with a shorter shoulder is an option, as is re-threading that bolt just a bit further up the shoulder.

I can't hook the clutch master rod up and travel the pedal though as the slave isn't installed yet and I don't want to break the strap holding the slave rod in place.

That is what is taking me so long on this deal, can't do this until that is done etc etc etc. I could have had the steering column back in days ago, but I'm waiting to get the headers in first for example.

Back at it early today, hopefully the header install goes well.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/02/12 04:41 PM

My car is sitting in my shop right now, can't go look at it to tell if both circuit breakers are the same size, do know they should both be 30A though.

When you do the final install of the clutch make sure you are careful with the fork, I've read some have had problems with the fork/pressure plate install on the LT1, damaging the fingers on the pressure plate are the results, this happens when they start the engine.

Instead of a bolt for the pedal/rod is it possible to weld a threaded stud to the pedal and eliminate the bolt head altogether?
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/02/12 11:14 PM

Major progress today.

Started out under the dash, took the washer out and ground about half of the bolt head off and re-installed the pedal...looks like everything is gonna clear...barely. Didn't want to press the pedal as the slave cylinder wasn't installed in the bell yet.

Header install went well, the Hookers are really nice pieces. Buttoned up everything up top except the inner fender wells then went back underneath.

Pulled the trans completely out...then spent some more quality time wiring. Had to tidy up the now unused harnesses, reroute a few others and shore up the new ones. Easier to get to all of those with the trans out of the way.

I then installed the pilot bearing, flywheel, clutch and prepared to install the trans for the last time. Went ahead and cut the ear off just in case but I still don't think it would have been a problem. The trans slid right into place just about as easy as I've ever seen a manual go. I had to put a screw jack under the engine to lift it up just a tad to line everything, then it just slid right in. I pushed the clutch fork onto the throw out bearing, installed the slave cylinder then bolted the cross member into place for hopefully the last time. Then called it a day. #tired

I took pics and will post them up later. Not long now... smile
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/03/12 02:10 AM

Header pics...

Passenger side











Driver's Side











Oil filter will be a LOT easier to change now. Plugs are pretty easy. Couple of the bolts are a bit tight to get too, but nothing worse than any other header I've seen.

1 5/8s tubes, 3" collectors, no O2 bung like the picture on Summit showed though. Overall, I can deal with them. Plenty of room around control arm mounts, knock sensor, even have the oil pressure sender back in the stock location again. I feel can recommend these as a drop in header for most cars. Hooker 2466-1
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/03/12 02:37 AM

Transmission installation system







I discovered I can remove only the handle inside the car, lower the trans and remove the shifter from under the car...letting me not have to remove the inner shifter boot which is kind of a pain to deal with.



I then lift the trans into place, once it's bolted to the block, lower the back of the trans down, put the shifter on and lift it back up pushing the shifter through the boot.


Snug as a bug in a rug...






To do list:

Finish wiring the following
Reverse light plug on trans
Reverse lockout solenoid plug on trans
VSS plug on trans
pick up and install 4 bell housing bolts and the bolts to hold the clutch cover in place.
Re-Install and wire starter
Install drive shaft
Cut rest of exhaust (mufflers and tail pipes) free from car
Re-install inner fenders and battery
Test clutch and brake pedals for clearance
Re-install Steering column and associated wire harnesses
Re-install Steering column cover and switch bracket
Re-install bread box and console
Start engine and check for leaks and noises
make sure car moves under it's own power and load on trailer for trip to muffler shop.


**whew**

Damn near done... laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/05/12 09:45 PM


To do list:

Finish wiring the following
Reverse light plug on trans
Reverse lockout solenoid plug on trans
VSS plug on trans
pick up and install 4 bell housing bolts and the bolts to hold the clutch cover in place.
Re-Install and wire starter
Install drive shaft


Tonight's list

Cut rest of exhaust (mufflers and tail pipes) free from car (actually now just tie them in place as I'm reusing them)
Fill trans with fluid
Install trans line plugs in radiator
Refill engine coolant
Re-install inner fenders and battery
Test clutch and brake pedals for clearance
Re-install Steering column and associated wire harnesses
Re-install Steering column cover and switch bracket
Re-install bread box and console


Then maybe if time allows:

Start engine and check for leaks and noises
make sure car moves under it's own power and load on trailer for trip to muffler shop.



BTW, you should have seen the grin on my face as I was wiring the starter up AFTER IT WAS BOLTED IN PLACE with no obstructions in the way whatsoever. I think I'm gonna like these headers. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/06/12 12:52 PM

Tonight's list

Cut rest of exhaust (mufflers and tail pipes) free from car (actually now just tie them in place as I'm reusing them)
Fill trans with fluid (gonna be tougher than I thought apparently)
Install trans line plugs in radiator (anyone know the correct size of plug? it is NOT 1/4" npt)
Refill engine coolant
Re-install inner fenders and battery
Test clutch and brake pedals for clearance (knocked the PW relay off the box, there I fixed that)
Re-install Steering column and associated wire harnesses (wish I remembered where all those plugs went?)
Re-install Steering column cover and switch bracket
Re-install bread box and console


The Monte Carlo Gods were not nice to me last night, the car fought me all night long. Hopefully tonight will be better.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/06/12 01:24 PM

Keep fighting the good fight! smile

What's causing the issue with filling the trans?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/06/12 01:39 PM

The fill hole is up in the tunnel. I don't have anything to get the fluid from the quart up to the hole.

I have two choices as I see it, remover the boot and shifter again and fill from the top or run a hose down through the old trans cable hole in the floor into the fill hole and use a funnel inside the car to get the fluid into the hole (just begging for a disaster).
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/07/12 11:44 PM

Two ways to fill a T56, pour the fluid in the shifter hole before you install the shifter, just leave the plug on the side of the trans out, fill to the bottom of the plug hole.

To fill through the fill plug use the top from a gear oil plastic container, it has a pointed tip, slide a piece of 3/8" fuel hose over it's tapered tip. This allows more than 1/2 the Dexron in each qt to be squeezed into the trans. Refill that qt container a few times and the trans is full. Kinda a PITA, but gets the job done.

You are using just a straight Dexron III I assume? No synthetics I hope.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/08/12 03:46 AM

Uh... Something I should know here?

I get synthetic auto trans fluid for free from the wife's work...been running it in my 200R4 for years now. Should I not run it in the T56?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/09/12 06:11 AM

The blocking rings are paper/fiber in the early T56, I think up to 96, carbon in the T56 after that, synthetic Dex is not recommended, per a Tremec tech only straight Dex should be run in the early T56, synthetic will swell the fiber rings.

I tried semi-synthetic once and found when the trans was cold is was hard getting the trans into gear, not enough friction from the blocking rings. All T56 have brass blocking rings for reverse, synthetics made getting into reverse very difficult when the trans was cold.

Others will disagree, many have tried other lubes, there has been hundreds of opinions written about what works best, but in the end I would still stay with a standard Dex III in my trans, it has carbon rings.

Just another point of interest. My new Eaton posi came with carbon friction discs. On the carrier was a sticker, DO NOT RUN SYNTHETIC GEAR LUBE.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/12 02:52 AM

Finished up my gauge install and got to test drive them today.























In action...

http://youtu.be/y7v6S6yFaOU

I think they look great, I'm very happy with them. Pretty user friendly to set up and make adjustments on once you get used to it. I'm still playing with the lighting and display settings but it's real easy to see in the daylight so far. Haven't driven it in the dark with the lights on yet.

To calibrate the speedometer to the car, the instructions said to use a measured mile, you stop at the beginning of the measured mile. Shut the car off and hold switch one while starting the car back up. You then go through the menu until you get to the "speed set" mode. Once in the right spot, you take off driving at any speed you want...when you cross the end of the "measured mile" you press the switch again. The controller then counts the number of pulses in that distance and calibrates the speedometer for you (it was over 150,000 last time I looked). It then calculates for a bit, resets itself and BANG your speedometer is set.

I had to drive about 4 miles to get to the interstate where there is a mileage marker every 2 tenths of a mile. Once there, I stopped right on the on ramp and got all set up. Once ready...away I went. Having a post every 2 tenths of a mile helped me be ready for the post I was looking for and I hit the switch right as I went by it at about 60 mph.

I had my Garmin GPS on the windshield so I could check it to make sure I got it right, by the time I got off of the off ramp I took right after setting it, it had already calculated and was dead on compared to the GPS. 40 mph was 40 mph and 80 mph was 80.

Couldn't have been easier.

It was also nice to be able to program in the mileage from my stock speedometer so that the car's mileage remains true. I took pictures of both after this was done for verification.

Odometer even has two trip meters and the tach has an hour meter. Other functions include a 1/4 mile time keeper, 0-60 timer, high speed, high tach reading, clock, digital as well as sweep tach readings, check engine light, ability to add warnings for high water temp, low oil pressure, a shift programmable shift light... etc etc.

It's a very nice piece and I can highly recommend it to anyone that is considering upgrading the factory gauges in our cars.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/12 02:54 AM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
The blocking rings are paper/fiber in the early T56, I think up to 96, carbon in the T56 after that, synthetic Dex is not recommended, per a Tremec tech only straight Dex should be run in the early T56, synthetic will swell the fiber rings.

I tried semi-synthetic once and found when the trans was cold is was hard getting the trans into gear, not enough friction from the blocking rings. All T56 have brass blocking rings for reverse, synthetics made getting into reverse very difficult when the trans was cold.

Others will disagree, many have tried other lubes, there has been hundreds of opinions written about what works best, but in the end I would still stay with a standard Dex III in my trans, it has carbon rings.

Just another point of interest. My new Eaton posi came with carbon friction discs. On the carrier was a sticker, DO NOT RUN SYNTHETIC GEAR LUBE.
Bob


Thanks Bob, I'll take this under advisement. I've got no cost in the synthetic I put into the trans, so I don't mind draining it back out. I haven't noticed any difficulty shifting it yet but I'll keep an eye on it and see what I can find about not only this fluid but the 1994 T56 as well.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/12 01:20 PM

Looks and sounds great! Congrats on getting the car back up and running so soon!


Watching the video, I noticed some hesitation in the tach around the 2:15-2:17 mark? Seems like it was wavering back and forth a bit...
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/12 02:36 PM

I don't like you anymore. The only way you can fix this problem is to give me a ride around the block. Looking good. I love the VHX system. That was on my Christmas list last year but MRS. Clause said I have been on the naughty list too long for any toys like that in my stocking.

Gotta love the 6th gear OD. 70 ish mph at 1600rpms. You will love that. With that truck cam (another cam joke) I bet it pulls good down low in 5th and 6th.
Posted By: MikesMontes

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/12 03:03 PM

I sold this one to Lance --If you need a deal on one send PM to me--- Mike
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/12 03:45 PM

Mike - Any idea if Dakota is thinking of a more OE appearance - black back with white lettering and red needle? Some of us would find this interesting.
Gordon
Posted By: MikesMontes

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/11/12 02:00 AM

mock something up and I would send it to them Mike
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 01:32 AM

Yesterday I drained the synthetic fluid from the transmission, then took the new exhaust apart and fixed it properly and re-installed. Then went inside the car, removed the stock shifter, filled the trans from the top with Dex III while the shifter was out and installed the new shifter in it's place.

It all went pretty smooth, had a bit of trouble getting the shifter inner boot back in place was all then buttoned it all back up put some stabil in the tank and went for a drive.

So very VERY much fun even on a smooth casual drive. No vibrations, no funny noises, exhaust leaks are fixed...it was a very enjoyable ride around town. New shifter is tight, much smaller pattern and a much more secure shift from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. Me likey... The exhaust seems all sealed up again now. I even put a wrench on the header bolts once again while they were hot just for insurance. It does sound a bit different with the X-pipe than with the old H-pipe.

Today I put the street brake pads back in the front calipers and got one e-brake cable functioning again. I've figured out an emergency brake is a lot more useful on a manual car than on one with an automatic trans...

Then I buttoned it all up again and went on another cruise. Car is a dream to drive. Very smooth, much more control over the car's functions, just a better feel for the car overall.

I've noticed I can make the car ping when bogging it down...which means I need to retard the timing a bit. That's next on the list. Plus as many more cruises I can squeeze in before the roads get nasty.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 02:19 AM

AWESOME. So is the sound better or just different with the X?
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 03:10 AM

What color combo shifter did you eventually descide on?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 03:11 AM

ENJOY!!

"I've figured out an emergency brake is a lot more useful on a manual car than on one with an automatic trans..."
I wouldn't own a stick without one, kinda like leaving home and not having a 10 in your pocket.

Let us know how that Mobil 1 works out for ya. Getting the trans into 1st and R on a very cold day will tell ya.

Which shifter did you go with?
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 03:46 AM

I ended up putting Valvoline Dex III in it, more and more I read...the more I just decided to not create any more problems for myself than necessary.

The car won't see any really cold duty anyway so it shouldn't ever be an issue again.

I found Core Shifter dot com and Chris there helped me pick out a shifter for my needs. Great guy. I bought his Core Shifter with the Hurst internals canted ll degrees to the driver, the 7.5" chrome Hurst stick and the black ball with no logo on the side but the shift pattern on top.

I like it a lot, pattern is much tighter, the ball stays at the same height 1st or 2nd gear and is much more secure in 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th shifts. I haven't taken pics of it yet as I still haven't come up with a boot or cut the console plate yet.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 03:47 AM

Originally Posted By: 345HP87SSAC
AWESOME. So is the sound better or just different with the X?


Just different...more muffled like mainly under deceleration but not a whole lot different.

Eventually I'll swap out the flowmasters and tailpipes for something different but it'll do for now.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 05:04 AM

Good choice with the Valvoline Dex, That's what I have in mine. Tried the Valvoline Durablend Dex, didn't like it at all. Use Valvoline synthetic chassis grease ( Mobil 1 is lousy, separates), Valvoline P/S fluid, gear oil, brake fluid and Valvoline 10-40 dino in the engines that don't run Mobil 1. Just a big fan of Valvoline products.

The factory Tremec shifters leave a lot to be desired, anything is an upgrade. I've had a Pro 5.0 for the past 10 years with a custom handle I made. Only a couple choices back then for aftermarket shifters for a T56. Like it, it's OK, think there may be better choices these days. But I do like the idea of having adj stops built into the shifter to prevent over travel of the forks, particularly if you bang gears.

By the way, one habit to avoid with a T56 is "playing" with the shifter between gears. In a discussion with George at Rockland Standard Gear years ago he made it a point to say "shift it, take you hand off", don't use the shifter as a resting place for your hand. The pads on the forks and the forks will live a lot longer. Before it becomes a habit, hands off!
Bob
Posted By: JAWSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/17/12 10:11 AM

Love the VHS gauges and the video of them in action. I am sold on them now, One for the Chevelle and maybe a set or two for some Monte Carlos I know of.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/13 02:01 AM

So I've put about 200 miles on Barney since the T56 swap, still loving every minute of it. Super glad to be able to sneak the car out in January on the dry days and get used to shifting gears, unusual for us here in the Midwest.

Been working with John (32v_dohc here on the board) about my PROM, I was having some pinging issues below 1800 RPM which were easy to reproduce and diagnose now with the T56. Apparently the timing tables for use with an automatic trans are very different than those used with a manual. The auto tune builds in timing to compensate and help with a slipping torque converter which is no longer there. I started out with his EGR delete ZZ4 PROM that I put in the car a couple of years ago set at about 8 degrees advanced at idle and dropped it 2 degrees at a time before I got it all the way down to 0 degrees advanced before I was able to all but eliminate the pinging below 1800 RPM.

He took that information plus my description of the seat of the pants power feel (which dropped considerably at the same time) and did some more research and came up with a new tune for me. I think he was able to find a set of timing tables that GM uses for a RamJet 350 with a manual trans (uses the exact same cam as in my engine) and adapted them into the CCC PROM and burnt it for me. I put that PROM in yesterday and set the timing at 6 degrees advanced and took it for a spin... MAN did it wake that little 383 up!! From a roll it spun the tires almost all the way through first gear the first time I really got on it once everything was well warmed up. Drove it around a bit, lugged it down to 1300 RPM in 6th gear and could not get it to ping anywhere... So I pulled it back into the garage and tried to go ahead and set it at 10 degrees advanced (John said that would give a total of 34 degrees). I couldn't get it to stay at 10 for some reason, every time I would tighten the clamp down it would jump up to about 12 degrees, but it would hold steady at 9 degrees so I left it there and road tested again.

Can't really explain how different it feels, totally woke this car up. Spins up much faster than every before, so much so that it messed my timing up and I even missed a 2nd to 3rd gear shift at one point. I've got to learn how to drive it all over yet again. But that is alright...I'll take it. I can't wait to take it back to my friends chassis dyno now. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do that soon.

Filled that tank back up (looked to be about 15 mpg) washed the dust off of her and put her back in the garage with the cover on it...for now.

LOVE hot rodding in January.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/13 11:50 PM

Spent some time wrenching on the Monte again today.

Today's job was project rear suspension upgrade. The last part of my suspension that was still factory stock was the rear upper and lower control arms.

Picked these beauty's up from UMI Performance.



They are double adjustable with roto-joints which are supposed to not only much stronger than the factory stamped steel arms, but also still allow the suspension to articulate without binding. They also have provisions to mount the stock style sway bar in the lowers which was necessary in my case.

Installation wasn't a huge deal as I've had it all apart before, many times. Only real hassle was I had to take the disc brake backing pads off to get the old lower control bolts out of the mounts. I did one arm at a time starting with the lowers then the uppers.

Here is how I made sure the new arms were set at the same length as the stock arms. Bolts through both arms seemed to be a better way to measure than using a tape.



Once all four arms were in place, I raised the rear axle up with a screw jack into ride height and cranked the 8 bolts tight. I'm not sure this is necessary with the roto-joints, but old habits are hard to break. I then re-installed the swaybar.







Once everything was buttoned back off, it was time for the obligatory test drive to check out the improvements. laugh

Been very happy to be able to get the car out on the road at least once every week or so this winter and today was just another example of that. Took it easy for a bit, shaking it down if you will and when everything seemed to be fine, I made some aggressive cuts back and forth to test the turning and body roll feelings. It's a little different but I couldn't really explain it.

Where I really noticed the difference was on a few launches from a dead stop or slight roll. These arms really hold the rear end in place and plant the power to the rear tires better than the stock arms. The whole car just feels more in control and smoother under heavy power than before.

I removed the drive shaft and checked the pinion angle and trans output angle with the rear at ride height before I started. The trans is 1.5 degrees down and the pinion is 1.5 degrees up...which from my old 4 wheeling days is perfect for vibration free action, so I set both the uppers and lowers to the stock length for now.

I didn't drive it a whole lot today, but the slight vibration that I had at 70 mph seems to be gone now. The old arms had the 28 year old rubber bushings in them...and maybe they had just enough slop in them to cause the vibration. We'll see.

The plan now is to get the car back to the alignment shop, do a true 4 corner alignment and maybe fine tune the pinion angle at that point if needed.

Also took some pictures of the new X-pipe install. It was done in a rush to get the car driveable right after the trans install and isn't exactly what I wanted...but it'll do for now I guess.







Posted By: Jameson

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/13 11:58 PM

Is that a exhaust kit or did a shop install it?
Posted By: 406monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/13 01:06 AM

Nice Lance, I love my UMI control arm kit. I have had mine for several years now. They didn't come with the roto-joints though. They sure make the rear plant better, that was one of the first things I noticed at the track.

Also, to add what Jameson is asking what size pipes are those?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/13 03:36 AM

I had an exhaust shop pick up an X-pipe and bend up the rest between the new headers and the mufflers, 2.5" pipe. I wanted band clamps to make it easier to take apart, but he didn't get the right X-pipe or band clamps. Made it harder for him to make the bends to the X after the cross member.

Thing is, it was getting ready to snow and I had one chance to get it done, so I just told him to do the best he could and we'd fix it later.

I'm learning to live with it though.
Posted By: Sixtoes1313

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/13 04:29 AM

Looks nice lance! Another healthy upgrade. I've been quite happy with my spohn upper/lower rear arms. Along with the hellwig bar, and hotchkis braces I noticed a BIG difference in traction. Can't wait to get her to the track and see if I can put the power down. Have swapped in the 6 speed and changed to 4.11 gears plus alot of moderate suspension changes since the last time. Like you I used the contradiction equal degree measurements of the trans/rear (also think i set it at -1.5/1.5) and mine is smooth well past 70!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/13 01:47 PM

4:11s and a T56? Wow, first gear must be really short for you... With my 3:50s it still seems like I'm just getting going and it's ready for 2nd gear already.

Last time I had mine at the 1\4 mile, it had stock tires and no rear sway bar, Wheel hopped like crazy and never got a decent run in.

Now our drag strip is closed...not sure if I'll ever get it back on one again any time soon.
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/13 03:31 PM

Lance,
You’ve done a great job and it shows!! You know ever square inch of your car and have turned every bolt on it, that alone says a lot. IMO the car is better than GM could have ever hope for, Congrats!!!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/18/13 03:43 AM

Upgrading the rear arms should make a noticable difference in your car. Looked at the UMI catalogue again, it's been awhile since I browsed, bigger and better product line today.

Did you happen to measure the UMI center to centers before you adjusted them to stock length? Bought the Spohn 215 LCA about two years ago, it was "factory preset" at 18 5/8". It replaced Global West TBC2 LCAs that were 10 years old, they measured 18 11/16", not adjustable. Stock length is 19 1/4". Stock UCA is said to be 11 3/16". It's also been said that GM actually made three different length UCA for the G, ride height/driveline angle tweaking probably. Anyways, always curious what length people sell.

As usual the car looks great, and, I love watching people spend money on a Monte.
Bob

Oh, you need to throw a set of braces back there now, if you ain't got um.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/18/13 03:45 AM

Looks great man, another awesome upgrade.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/18/13 03:48 AM

Some T56 1st gear math:
2.60 x 3.50 = 9.1
2.60 x 4.11 = 10.7
2.97 x 3.73 = 11.01

For me the 11.01 x 500 just makes 1st and 2nd more fun.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/18/13 03:56 AM

Sorry Bob, I was in such a hurry to take them apart and anti-seize the crap out of all of the rod ends, I neglected to measure them first. I had already decided that I was going to use the factory length on them and use bolts through the factory arms to be sure of the length...so I never even put a tape on them at any point.

With the roto-joints, I could tell it was going to be difficult to accurately measure the distances as it was hard to tell if the rod end was square or not. Using the bolt through a stock arm and the UMI arm ensured they were square and the right length.

I was a bit surprised the UMI's were just a tad lighter in weight than the stockers also.

Braces...whatcho talkin bout braces.... wink
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/18/13 06:03 AM

http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploaded_files/1401.pdf

Bought the Edels years ago. May be a bit smaller than the Hotchkis if space is a issue.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5210

And if you want to go a step farther you could glue these in, HR products 0251.
http://www.buickgn.com/hrframebraces.htm
Bob
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/18/13 01:36 PM

http://tntraceshop.com/1978-1988_G-body_180100-180200-180101-180201.html
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/13 09:12 PM

Roads finally dried up and it warmed up considerably today...so I brought the Monte out of hibernation.

Called the alignment shop and they had an extra hour to work me in so we put it on the rack to check the alignment of the rear with the new control arms. The thrust angle was -0.06 and they felt that was about as good as it was going to get so we left the lowers alone.

We then checked the pinion angle vs the trans output and adjusted the upper arms to move the pinion angle from 0 to 3.5 degrees up. The engine\trans is at 3.5 degrees down.

Car goes down the road pretty smooth now...I'd say about half of the small vibration that was left is gone. What's left very well could be a slightly off balance tire, not enough to chase anymore.

A bigger difference I felt was less of a feeling of the backlash, the slop you feel between acceleration and deceleration...that and the initial letting out of the clutch feel much tighter and smoother. I didn't do any hard launches though, but I'm sure it'll still hook and track pretty straight as well.

I believe the car is ready to go racing for the season now, no more changes...just driving.

My source for the R-Comp tires didn't make the race at COTA so it'll be another 3 weeks or so before I'll get any take offs from him...so I'll have to run the first events April 6th and 7th on my street tires. That's okay though, I have plenty of other changes I've made to the car that I have to get used to before adjusting to a different tire.

One more change I have to make personally...new driving shoes. The pedals are just too close together and my sneakers I normally wear have lips on them that catch on the underside of the clutch and brake pedals. I need real smooth and as small as possible shoes to give me as much room as I can get to move my feet around the pedals without anything hanging up in an inopportune time.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/14/13 11:27 PM

The car has come along quiet well over the years. Do you see your self installing a LS engine one day. I kinda have the feeling you have ran out of mods as she sits???


In the mean time I would love to see a good vid of a launch. There is nothing like banging third gear in my 461 TA going sideways at 60 plus MPH with the third pedal.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/14/13 11:43 PM

Lance - that you have progressed to tweaking your shoes is an indication of how far you have come in your refinement of your ride. Life is a journey and not a destination, huh? A reminder that we have all been following your adventures and stealing ideas where we are able. Thanks for your efforts to educate us all. Keep it up. Oh, and what are you doing for sunglasses this summer? LOL
Gordon
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/15/13 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
The car has come along quiet well over the years. Do you see your self installing a LS engine one day. I kinda have the feeling you have ran out of mods as she sits???


In the mean time I would love to see a good vid of a launch. There is nothing like banging third gear in my 461 TA going sideways at 60 plus MPH with the third pedal.


Eh, I don't see me swapping an LS into this car. It just runs too good like it is and has plenty of room to tweak still if I need more.

Did you notice my new thread in the engine forum? Had the car back on a chassis dyno yesterday.

I could post the video of it spinning the tires on the dyno drum, would that hold you over? cool
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/15/13 02:47 AM

Originally Posted By: AkronAero
Lance - that you have progressed to tweaking your shoes is an indication of how far you have come in your refinement of your ride. Life is a journey and not a destination, huh? A reminder that we have all been following your adventures and stealing ideas where we are able. Thanks for your efforts to educate us all. Keep it up. Oh, and what are you doing for sunglasses this summer? LOL
Gordon


Thanks for watching... It's fun for me to share what I'm going through with those with similar interests.

My wife and a lot of my local friends while they watch and cheer me on, don't really understand the passion and why I (we) do what I do.

And I almost exclusively wear Serengeti driving sunglasses, have for years. Love them. Maybe not the latest fashion styles, but the best seeing sunglasses for driving there is.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/12/13 02:21 PM

I'm chasing a condition where my car gets real loose on left hand turns, started last year and continued this year after all of the changes I made.

I put the car up on the lift last night and found this...Looks like I've got my work cut out for me before Sunday

Right rear tire rub on frame




Exhaust drooped over and hitting pass side upper control arm





Upper control arm frame end driver side delrin joint




The right tire has never rubbed the frame before, it's a 1/4" closer to the frame than the driver side. I think the 6 psi drop in tire pressure last weekend is was let the tire come over to contact the frame. The Hoosiers I'm running this week are on narrower wheels with less backspace so this won't be an issue with them.

The exhaust hitting the UCA is a symptom of the new X-pipe put on in a hurry after I had to swap the headers due to the T56 swap last December. The tail pipes and mufflers kept rotating in the X pipe so the exhaust shop tack welded it in place, they just forgot to twist the over the axle part back up straight before tacking. I'll cut the tack weld loose and loosen the clamp on the X-pipe and lift on the bottom of the inside of the muffler to rotate things back into place and tack it up again.

And the delrin joint just needs to be loosened, straightened up and tightened again. I'll need to verify the whole thing isn't loose therefore disrupting not only the pinion angle but also might be letting the axle move to the Driver's side.

The bump stops do not appear to be contacting the frame (good thing), the frame was dirty and not wiped clean by contact from the poly stops.

All of these problems are new this year, they were not part of the problem causing the loose condition last year, but I will correct them and put the new tires on and run this Saturday and see what happens.

I'll report back with my findings.
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/12/13 05:17 PM

I had to add some thread lock on my adjustable UCA/LCA, all of them moved a bit.
The LCA's on mine use a stock style sway bar, so those arms did not rotate, but the UCA sure did, and just a little on the UCA swings the tires in and out a lot.
Good luck on the pipes, at least they are recent and should be an easy fix.
Just one more good reason to have a lift! And, yes, I am still jealous..
beer

Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/12/13 05:23 PM

How does thread lock work on top of copious amounts of anti-seize...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/13 01:07 AM

Both jam nuts were loose on driver's UCA and it was about a 1/4" shorter than the other, hence the tire rub. Fixed...

That is the second time those jam nuts have come loose, gonna have to keep a closer eye on them.

The tack weld on the exhaust joint behind the X-pipe broke and the clamp was loose, so the tailpipe rotated over into the UCA. I notched the female end of the X-pipe, re-installed pipe and clamped it down tight. Should have fixed that right the first time, now it's fixed though.

Tried to mount the ZQ8s with the slicks thinking I was on a roll and was quickly defeated, they won't fit over the hubs on my front rotors.

Crap... Guess I'm running on street tires again this weekend.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/13 11:49 AM

Talk to Randy. He ran ZQ8s on his SS.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/13 05:26 PM

Worked like a champ, didn't take much off at all to get them to fit.





Man is it going to be fun to drive now!!!! Just a little rub on the back of the lower front control arm at full lock.

Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/13 09:18 PM

Why'd you put on BALD tires!?! wink
Posted By: Gruvin

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/13 11:57 PM

those tires are no good... send them to me! cool
Posted By: rons87mcss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/13 12:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Gruvin84SS
those tires are no good... send them to me! cool


Just to save Jeremy a little on shipping, send 2 of them to me smile
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/13 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS
Why'd you put on BALD tires!?! wink



Maybe that's why I got such a good deal on them...

poke
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/13 01:02 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Originally Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS
Why'd you put on BALD tires!?! wink



Maybe that's why I got such a good deal on them...

poke


Do tell.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/13 01:12 AM

Slight adjustment to plans... Calling for rain and thunderstorms tomorrow so I parked the boat in the garage and loaded the rain tires and floor jack into the back of the truck.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/13 01:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Do tell.


Those tires came off of the double national race winner in A-Sedan at Hallet, OK last weekend.

All they cost me was a 1.75 of Grey Goose and a little bit of tire machine work.

They are no good for any more road racing but have plenty of 50 second Autocross runs left in them.

They are about $1200 for a set of 4 new ones...
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/13 01:17 PM

Good deal. Hopefully the weather holds out for you & you get to try them out.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/13 09:41 PM

Me likey!!!!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/16/13 04:21 AM

Cool, slicks on all four corners.
A guy was selling a used set of Hoosier 255/50x16 R6 on Ebay a few years ago, still kick myself in the butt for not buying them.
Which tires are on your car now?

Relating to the alignment of the UCA spherical joint, keep an eye on the LCA joints also. The lower joints need to be aligned end to end to maximize articulation. I've found that one LCA will rotate to one side after driving the car, the other will remain centered. It did this before the last 4 corner thrust alignment, and after aligning. Nothing to worry about.

Now that you have the rear suspension set up, puts some paint markers on the UCA and LCA adjustments to use as reference. A CHINA MARKER works best, will wash off with thinner.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/16/13 01:57 PM

Right now it's got 275/45/16 Hoosier A6s on the ZQ8 wheels on all 4.

I'll switch it back to the street tires for the next couple of weeks once I get the boat out of the shop.

My street tire Nitto 555s are 300 tread wear tires, the Hoosier A6s are 40 tread wear... HUGE difference in traction levels...

I'm signed up for a NASA HPDE event at HPT on memorial day weekend. 2 full days of running laps at speed on the 2.5 mile road course. Still haven't decided what I'll run for tires during that event, probably run the Nittos though as the A6s won't last that whole weekend.

Once these 555s are toast, I'll look for the stickiest 200 tread wear tire I can find to put on my street rims.

Having the slicks on makes it really fun to autocross the car but for street driving and track days I'll need something a bit different me thinks.

Once I get it back on the lift I'll nut and bolt everything under the car again, it'll be interesting to see if the UCA jam nuts came loose again. I only ran 4 laps on it, but they were a rough 4 laps...
Posted By: Jameson

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/16/13 08:13 PM

I put the NT05's on my car, they are 200 treadwear, Unfortunetly I haven't run my car much other then working out bugs but my friend has them on his 02 T/A and they hook hard in the turns.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/24/13 02:15 PM

Got the car back on the lift last night for the first time since the runs with the slicks...





If you listen on this video at 1:24 and 2:28 you can hear the left rear tire up against the tailpipe and the frame.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1Fna3tdIX0ubF9KZXRzV0dWcEE/edit


I've got a few ideas, but I'm very limited in options due to time and $$ constraints.

The tailpipe is the biggest hindrance and the whole exhaust is loose yet again, so that'll be my first challenge to tackle.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/30/13 02:17 PM

Reworked and tweaked on the exhaust from the X-Pipe back to the tail pipes last night and I think we've got everything clearanced and more secure now. Had to move the hanger behind the muffler on the driver's side about 3/4s of an inch in, twisted the part of the tailpipe that goes up over the axle to a more upright position, re-aligned the tailpipe hanger and put two 1" long welds on the X-pipe to exhaust pipe in front of the muffler connection (to help keep the tail pipe from coming loose and twisting again). Then John worked his magic with the big hammer to flatten out the one part of the tailpipe that was still just a touch outside of the frame rail on the driver's side.

Passenger side was easier, it had come loose and twisted over again just like last time so we just twisted it back into place and put two 1" welds on the X-Pipe to exhaust pipe connection and snugged all of the hangers back up again.

Hopefully my welds hold and it'll all stay in place from now on.

Still need to move the rear axle back to the driver's side just a touch to center it better and hopefully then I'll only have very little rubbing on each side under extreme tire deflection situations. Next option if that continues to be a problem will be longer wheel studs and a bit larger spacer, but I hope that isn't necessary.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/03/13 12:19 PM

Racing weekend #3 of 4 in a row is in the books, I'm starting to get tired. laugh Car is holding up pretty well, considering. Have discovered a few more weak areas that need attention.

Power steering pushes out fluid on the road course, needs a cooler, a better cap with the flapper seal or possibly just a better overall pump system.

Front brake pads glazed over during the track day weekend...a little work with a file prolonged their life for a while. Eventually I'll need to do something about bigger better badder front calipers and rotors.

Had some fuel starving issues coming out of corners on the road course and for some reason that has carried over to the autocross...dealt with it last weekend on the big autocross course. Not sure exactly what is going on there, hope it is something simple like a plugged filter. Could be pump related as the fuel pump is the factory 305 pump I'm pretty certain. Need to do a plug check and some basic engine checks before next weekend I suppose.

And tires... Need to figure out how to get some streetable rubber on the front rims for now so I can continue to drive it. Might just replace the Nitto 555s up front for now. Would like to upgrade the rubber all the way around but the tires I want to end up with (BFG Rivals) are expensive and are not made in a size that I want for the rears just yet...

Also need to work on my brake pedal assembly a bit more which I am NOT looking forward to. It all has to come back out so I can replace the sleeve and bushing on the brake pedal bolt. My back hurts just thinking about the under dash time this will take.

I did get time to press 3" studs into the rear axles which allowed me to run a 1/2" spacer instead of the 1/4" and this did get my rear slicks to stop rubbing on the frame.

And trimming the bump stops down to 3/4" tall did help the handling a ton. I hit one big hole before a rumble strip which smacked my passenger side caliper bolt into the frame but other than a slightly bent bolt, it's all still good. I'll leave that mod be for a while.

I need to fix this...any suggestions?

laugh

This did happen on the second day at the big track



AC bracket bolt (also top water pump bolt) backed out during the 2nd session Sunday but jammed in place and stayed there. Never even threw ANY of the belts or did any other damage. #lucky




Other than that...and a lot of fluids, road grime, dirt and brake dust all over the car...it's all good...

The good news is, I'm no longer worried about driving it daily and getting it dirty...that bridge has been crossed at a high rate of speed!!!
Posted By: Number1

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/13 07:00 PM

How the pedal setup working out for you. Do you have any pictures. Also want master cylinder did you use.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/13 08:06 PM

The Sickspeed Clutch pedal is great, works like a champ with no issues. I'm running a 1999 F body clutch master and slave setup and a single diaphragm brake booster.

I do have a bit of a brake pedal issue that I need to work on now that my 4 weekend in a row race stretch is over but it is not related to the clutch pedal. Hopefully it won't be any big deal to fix up.

I promise I'll get some pictures and video of the clutch pedal in action up soon.
Posted By: Number1

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/13 08:20 PM

Where can I come see you racing in person at. Would love to see that thing drive
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/13 08:24 PM

Just got home from an autocross event in Independence MO an hour ago. Our next autocross is the last Sunday in June I believe.

I want to try to make it down to Hallett, OK sometime this summer for a track day event but not sure if I can make it happen or not.
Posted By: Number1

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/13 08:38 PM

That would be awesome if we could meet up at hallett.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/10/13 07:46 PM

Cupholder anyone?


Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/13 02:50 AM

Sexy
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/07/13 01:50 PM

So with a month off between events, Barney is back under the knife so to speak...






The only piece of stock suspension left on the car is the front lower control arms and front spindles...so I'm mapping out all of the front suspension pivot points and am going to use those measurements to pick the best replacements to get the geometry where I need it.

Tried doing the measurements with the front tires on, but they were just in the way of everything, so we measured the spindle height sitting on the tires in race trim, then put the bottle jacks under the LCAs right next to the ball joints simulating ride height but with the tires out of the way. The 2x6s are just there for safety reasons, not holding up any weight.

The string running down the length of the car is the exact centerline of the chassis, all of the pivot points are measured off of it as well as in front of or behind the centerline of the spindles.

1 BBC fully dressed head is on the floorboard in front of the seat and 2 SBC heads are behind the seat to simulate my 172 pounds of driver weight and the rest of the car is as it is set up on race day as well.
Posted By: CornerCarver1980

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/09/13 11:24 PM

Looking good Lance! What do you have planned for the rear suspension? I am currently trying to figure out exactly what mods I need to do to the back end of my frame to get it to handle like the front. I want it super low and from what I have heard the stock rear pickup points don't fair well with sitting super low.

Have you looked into the RideTech front suspension system? Supposed to have 0.00" bumpsteer through 5" of suspension travel. I am pretty sure I am going that direction with mine.

http://www.ridetech.com/store/1978-88-gm-g-body.html
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/10/13 02:05 PM

Lance,

This is awesome! I can't wait to see the numbers.

One observation though. Supporting the arm under the BJ might not simulate the actual ride height. The reaction point is a little further outboard at the center of pressure of the tire contact, which puts a bit more moment on the upright and makes the car sit lower. The way you have it is certainly the most practical though, and with the hard point locations, the exact ride height shouldnt be so important because you will be modeling the range of motion. Just something to keep in mind while interpreting the data.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/10/13 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: CornerCarver1980
Looking good Lance! What do you have planned for the rear suspension? I am currently trying to figure out exactly what mods I need to do to the back end of my frame to get it to handle like the front. I want it super low and from what I have heard the stock rear pickup points don't fair well with sitting super low.

Have you looked into the RideTech front suspension system? Supposed to have 0.00" bumpsteer through 5" of suspension travel. I am pretty sure I am going that direction with mine.

http://www.ridetech.com/store/1978-88-gm-g-body.html


Bumpsteer isnt everything, and a little bumpsteer can be used to tune the handling response of the car even.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/10/13 02:18 PM

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Lance,

This is awesome! I can't wait to see the numbers.

One observation though. Supporting the arm under the BJ might not simulate the actual ride height. The reaction point is a little further outboard at the center of pressure of the tire contact, which puts a bit more moment on the upright and makes the car sit lower. The way you have it is certainly the most practical though, and with the hard point locations, the exact ride height shouldnt be so important because you will be modeling the range of motion. Just something to keep in mind while interpreting the data.


Yeah, we thought about that... Ultimately a plate bolted to the hub and extended down to the lift ramp would have been most accurate but we figured this would be pretty close. Also the majority of the measurements outboard of the frame hard points are going to change with suspension mods or alignment adjustments anyway. This let us get to the frame points much easier and allowed us to be more accurate with them.

Discovered some issues though, currently the right front is showing positive camber at ride height, when at last alignment it was at 1.1 degrees negative camber. This is making a few of the specs on the right front look a little wonky and threw us for a loop for a bit. Consensus is the 28 year old rubber bushings in the LCA are distressed and distorted allowing the control arm to move to where it shouldn't...

At this point I quit being exactly so precise with any measurement pointing directly to the LCAs themselves. We'll cross that bridge once the new parts are bolted on.

We are 2/3rds done measuring, only the spindle centerline measurements left to do, hopefully get those done tonight.
Posted By: Spider_carb

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/10/13 04:39 PM

Just a FYI. I have BMR front lower control arms on my SS. I do not know how much, but they actually lowered the car.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/11/13 02:22 PM

Well I think I have completed the measuring of all of the pivot points on the front suspenion. What an interesting challenge. I learned a lot about my suspension geometry during the process. There is no doubt in my mind now that the 28 year old rubber bushings in my passenger side lower control arm are compromised and the arm is now out of spec (which is probably a factor in my excessive tire wear on that side as well).

Here's how I went about accomplishing this exercise...first I had to create a worksheet to help me keep track of all of the measurements as I made them.



Then I set the car on a level drive on lift in simulated race prep mode...I even put (1) BBC head on the floor in front of the driver's seat and (2) SBC heads behind the front seat to simulate driver's weight in the car. I then made a careful measurement of the spindle heights and removed the front tires and set bottle jacks under the A-Arms as close to the ball joints as I could get them and adjusted the screws in the bottle jacks to get the spindle heights at exactly the same height as they were with the front tires on. This allowed me much more room to make the measurements needed.

Here is the car on the lift with everything I used during the process set up and ready to go



I needed to have a secure square stand for a laser level away from the car at different times and the shop press worked perfectly for this. Notice there is a laser level on the press pointed at the upper ball joint in this picture.



I also used a laser level to light up the string running down the whole center of the car and another to light up the string exactly 10" in front of the spindle centerline.



The framing squares and the magnets holding them in place were used in conjunction with the three laser levels, plumb bob, tape measure, digital caliper and verneer caliper to measure and record all of the pivot points from the three reference points of the center of the car, center of the spindle, and ride height, over 80 measurements in total including the track width and scrub radius measurements.

With a good friend's help, it took about a half day on Saturday, then a couple hours a night for 3 week nights to complete the process. I'm certain we could do it faster the next time given the tricks we learned doing this our first time.

But anyway, hopefully this shows the rest of you a bit more about what we had to go through to come up with all of the measurements that we are going to put to use to help me figure out a solution to my woes.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/11/13 03:06 PM

Hey Lance,

Thanks for the detailed write-up on your progress!

Is anything planned for the rear suspension after the front is taken care of?

For the front suspension:
- Is Ron having you keep your current upper control arms and springs, or will those be changed out along with the lower control arms and spindles?
- Is he looking to go off the shelf for the lower arms? (I believe that he mentioned a custom route for the spindles)
- Have you made a final decision on the front brakes?
- Has he recommended a particular type/brand of shocks?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/11/13 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: SS Ninja


For the front suspension:
- Is Ron having you keep your current upper control arms and springs, or will those be changed out along with the lower control arms and spindles?
- Is he looking to go off the shelf for the lower arms? (I believe that he mentioned a custom route for the spindles)
- Have you made a final decision on the front brakes?
- Has he recommended a particular type/brand of shocks?



All very good questions... We aren't going to spend money just to spend money, I think the UCA arms will stay and we'll probably go with DSE lower control arms as well.

The spindle is the main thing we have to decide on, stay with stock and correct geometry with alignment specs or go with a custom spindle that will let us get to a better spot much easier.

Brakes are going to depend on the spindle choice and will be a factor in that decision as well. Shocks will be last.

For the rear, I'm currently working on a new class to run in with the SCCA in our region. If that happens, I'm certain a chassis mounted rear sway bar is in my future. Stiffer rear springs are also needed.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/11/13 04:29 PM

I wish I could have been there Lance, I do that kind of stuff for part of our vehicle testing. First we characterize the vehicle by doing physical measurements and then we do field testing. It looks like you did an excellent job though, using all of the same tools that we do.

We do have one other tool that I would love to be able to use but never will for personal purposes... we have a "Romer arm" (just like a Faro arm) that plots points in 3-D space and can locate on a grid of little cones epoxied into the floor. You take any three points on the floor (which are not exactly evenly spaced) and it knows where it is on the floor so that you can move the arm around and model a vehicle. We did it on a HMMWV and were able to come up with a really cool chassis model.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/11/13 04:39 PM

I wish you were too Bernie, We had to learn how to do it on the fly.

The hardest part was finding the pivot center to measure from on parts like the ball joints and the center of the LCA frame bushings, heck even getting to the center of the shock pivots was tough.

I can't imagine trying to do all of that with the front tires on, next to impossible to get in and around to measure things with them in the way.
Posted By: CornerCarver1980

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/11/13 06:53 PM

Looks like quite a task Lance. I just ordered a book on suspension setups, hoping to have a better good understanding of them before I start building mine.

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte


Bumpsteer isn't everything, and a little bumpsteer can be used to tune the handling response of the car even.


What do you recommend for front suspension on a G-Body? Build it all from scratch or buy from an aftermarket company? I am assuming one of these aftermarket companies has already done the research and is currently selling a quality front suspension system that will fix all of the issues these cars have. Do you know if any of the aftermarket companies have actually redesigned the geometry of the whole front end to fix the G-Body issues or are they all just bolt on pretty parts that don't fix anything?
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/12/13 12:54 AM

The only aftermarket company that I know of that has done the research is Marcus at SC&C. RideTech recently came out with their setup, but I don't know what research went into it. They may have done their homework too, I just don't know. Marcus has approached the problem with arms and uprights, which is the most practical way to do it. There are a few things that require the inboard points to be moved to tune though, like caster gain and anti-dive. I don't know yet if either of these can be, or need to be, improved on enough to go through the trouble of moving the frame points.

Most suspension parts that are out otherwise aim to solve one or two problems. They are not part of a holistic approach, and the "full suspension kits" generally only focus on springs/dampers/anti-roll bars/frame stiffening. To me, the spring compliance stuff gets tuned after getting the geometry right, but since it's so much easier and it does offer improvements even with non-optimized geometry, it makes sense that people often start there.

I am really excited to see the numbers that Lance comes up with because a few months back, I wrote some short-long-arm (SLA) software in Matlab that takes suspension points, moves the suspension through a defined range of motion, and plots pretty much anything you want. Camber, caster, roll center migration, instant center, anti-dive, bump steer, wheel center migration, etc. I have yet to add steering kinematics to investigate how the steering axis inclination (SAI) angle coupled with caster effects camber with as a function of steer angle, but that shouldn't be terribly difficult. It also does not account for compliance, such as in the bushings, which would be quite a bit more complicated.

It would certainly be much easier, and likely even cheaper, to buy a kit that has already been engineered. My reservation is that I have not seen any hard data to back up the claims of improved geometry. The stock configuration is poor, so it leaves a lot of room for improvement. I don't just want something better. I am a vehicle dynamics test engineer, so I want to take a shot at optimizing the system. It is a HUGE investment in time and effort though, so it's not a mainstream solution.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/12/13 01:15 AM

Yeah... What Bernie said. laugh
Posted By: CornerCarver1980

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/12/13 02:35 AM

Bernie, I see your points completely. I am following this so I can hopefully get mine setup right over the next few months. I like you guys want the very best handling G-Body ever... I don't want to buy anything if its not the best, I will definitely contact Marcus and Ridetech before spending the money. I have been reading Lances threads on pro touring and I and starting to understand some of the basics. I have my body off frame right now and I wanted to figure out what needs to be done to move front and rear suspension mounting points if anything before I paint it all. I am wanting to move, change or modify anything that will help on the track. From what I have read on here Marcus is the man when it comes to the G-Body suspensions. I will continue to soak up everyone's knowledge and use it on my build.

I can't wait to see what your software tells you about Lances suspension geometry and what changes need made. I assume the information will be good for other G-Body cars as well. I know some of his numbers will be different due to having DSE control arms already but the info should be good either way.

Your right about that, it would be a ton easier if someone was selling a proven kit for G-Body, front and rear. I guess I was just hoping it was out there somewhere. For now I will continue to learn and go from there.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/16/13 04:46 AM

Yep!
Have followed this post here and on PT.com, nice to see Ron step up and help you out.

As we all know reinventing the suspension on a G frame has been a topic for a lot longer than a decade. Numerous bandaids have been applied, some good, some not so good.
Spindles have always been the center of the problems in the front, no one would step up to the plate and produce an inexpensive bolt in that would, provide better geometry, increase brake sizes, AND correct Ackerman and mimimize bumpsteer.
Not until ATS introduced their AFX spindle was there anything close to that. Unfortuneately they still have draw backs, cost being the biggest! When you can buy a pair of cast iron drop spindles for $200-$400 you would think producing a better set of cast iron for a G could be done for $500. Give me the tall spindle, big bearings, improved S/A, increase track width, correct steering arm length, height and angle to correct Ackerman and reduce bump. An option of using a 12" disc, or adding the Vette parts for bigger brakes would be a neccesity, this way any size wheel/tire would work.

Lance a major problem child to the G steering is the frame. You need to locate and plot all the points of the linkage. Just looking at the centerlink noting the inner tie locations. The steering box is mounted closer to the centerline of the car, (pitman arm pivot point) than the idler, it's outboard of that point, thus the unequal length on the centerlink from those points to the inners. This effects Ackerman and bump for a side to side variance. Moving the steering box or pitman to improve there relationship is not easily doable.
Also moving the centerlink rearward would be advantagious, but not doable, oil pan and crossmember are in the way.

The steering linkage of the G will dictate the length, height and angle of the new spindle's steering arms. In the old days of the B-body spindle swap this was the #1 downside, poor steering geometry.

Another note here, hopefully you picked up from Ron that when doing suspension changes you hope to end up with the best compromise for what you want the car to do. 7 degrees of pos caster and 3 neg camber could make for a fun road course car, but not sure you'd enjoy it on the street. Even noted that Ron on his project car has two different, easily adjustable setups for autoX and track, probably much different.

Would love to see a new spindle on the market for reasonable!!!
Bob
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/16/13 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
The steering box is mounted closer to the centerline of the car, (pitman arm pivot point) than the idler, it's outboard of that point, thus the unequal length on the centerlink from those points to the inners. This effects Ackerman and bump for a side to side variance.


I'm not sure I follow why the steering box and Idler arm lateral locations being off matters, as long as the center link accounts for the difference.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/17/13 04:39 AM

Hopefully this won't get long.
If the four pivot points of the centerlink were truly a parallelogram then the centerlink movements to the left of center, and right of center would be exactly the same. Even though the pitman and idle are both close to 6 1/2" center to center, and are pretty close fore and aft in location, and travel in almost equal arcs, the fact is that GM had to adapt 50 year old steering linkage technology to every rear wheel drive vehicle they produced making them all "close enough for grandma to be safe". Whether it's a G, B, light truck, full size van, the parts are all the same, just different lengthes to compensate for the frame it has to fit. Usually it's the length of the tie rod assemblies, and the design of the centerlink that compensate.
On a G centerlink the left inner tie rod is set in about 4" from the pitman arm joint, the right inner is about 5 1/2" inward from the idler. When the centerlink moves left and right the idler and pitman points travel in arcs, the inners being at different locations travel in different arcs relative to each other. Now throw in the fact that the linkage doesn't form a true parallelogram and now you have deviations of bump and Ackerman from side to side.

The stock G steering geometry wasn't very good from new, and short of a someone making a drop in, perfect rack and pinion to fix it we're stuck with it.
All I was trying to point out was if a new spindle comes along it need to accommodate the G steering linkage and hopefully have a steering arm that corrects Ackerman and decreases bump.

Had several long conversations with Allan Johnson of Johnson Chassis, http://www.johnsonchassis.com/ when I was trying to improve bump using the B spindle. A couple interesting points he made; tens of thousands of Gs have been raced on the stock car circuits, on local stock cars tracks even today, back to the NASCAR of the 80's. One of the rules was, and still is, in the lower classes, you couldn't modify the front suspension and steering linkage. This is why Stock Car Products sells all the G stock steering parts, this is why Johnson sells virtually all the parts for the G frame and suspension, and even a new frame. The downside to this is there wasn't a reason to sell a better spindle, control arms, steering, you couldn't run it in any of the classes requiring stock components due to the parity rules. That would be the majority of the guys in the lower classes, which is still a huge chunk of the NASCAR sanctioned racers.

IMO there isn't the perfect spindle out there yet. The S10 spindle/tall ball joint swap is good, won't fix the steering, The B spindle does the same thing, just makes steering worse. The AFX spindle can improve bump/Ackerman but never totally fix it do to the poor steering geometry. If I had money to burn that would be my choice presently, but 4K+ after wheels and tire change is a chunk of change.

Bernie, I'll send you a couple pics from my bumpsteer project.
Bob
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/17/13 11:19 AM

Ok, I see what you are saying. I thought that the pivot centers of the pitman and idler were the same distance as the centers of the inner tie rods, and that the pitman and idler were equal lengths. If it's not a paralellagram, then I can see how it could cause asymmetry in the steering linkage. The pitman and idler don't necessarily have to be equidistant from the longitudinal centerline to achieve a paralellagram and symmetrical steering, but it sounds like we have more issues to contend with.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/17/13 11:42 AM

Thanks for explaining that in detail Bob, I'll certainly keep that in mind and bring it to Ron's attention when the time comes.

One question though, why would you need new wheels and tires to go with the AFX spindle?
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/17/13 12:28 PM

Bob is using GTA wheels, and the AFX spindles are meant to be used with Corvette hubs and bearings, necessitating 17"+ inch wheels.

If Bob has the same philosophy that I do on wheels and tires, he wouldn't want to settle for a really heavy set of cast 17" wheels to replace the relatively lightweight GTAs. Lightweight 17s and 18s are $$$.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/17/13 12:39 PM

I was wondering if diameter or back space was the culprit with the AFX spindles.

Might not matter to me if we get the STO class going as I'd run my street tires (17s) all the time if so. If not though, my 16" slicks might be a problem with an AFX spindle.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/17/13 12:52 PM

Backspacing might also be an issue, but the first hurdle would be finding brakes that would fit under 16" wheels (Not possible as far as I know).


Worst case, I'll take those slicks and wheels off your hands. No need to thank me, just trying to help a brother out! wink
Posted By: CornerCarver1980

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/17/13 01:46 PM

I have also been looking at the AFX spindles. I assume the required wheel size would depend on what brake setup you use. There a ton of brake kits that will fit this spindle. I think the stock C5/C6 brakes are 12.8". Would that fit in 15" or 16" wheels? The B body cars had 12" brakes and 15" wheels. Maybe the C5/C6 calipers are the issue. Or is there a clearance issue with the steering arm where the tie rod connects that will require less backspacing? I know on some 4x4 spindles the spindle is so tall you need a larger diameter wheel, not sure if this is the case with the AFX.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/18/13 04:36 AM

Oh boy.

Bernie, the linkage isn't terrible, it's just not what you would hope to use with a perfectly engineered spindle.
Did a lot of reading on Ackerman, can to the conclusion that it's engineered in for each particular driving venue. Ron eluded to that several times. For the most part it's meaningless to the guy running the flying mile, for a track car it's important, for a street car as long as the tires don't squeal when turned full lock while parking in a newly seal coated parking lot, we're OK. Some forms of racing actually run pos Ackerman, F1 I believe have tried it. Did you know Mr Ackerman invented Ackerman for just that reason, wasn't Smokey.
The correct angle, length and height on the steering arm will improve the bump, but it's still limited to the working planes of the steering linkage, which aren't easily changed. Good news is any improvement in bump is welcome, perfect or not.

Modeling suspension geometry to show the full range of motions and how each component interacts with the others to say the least is tedious. Ron I believe said he has Perf Trends modeling software, and expertise to use it, looking forward to that.

For me AFX spindles gets expensive because of wheels and tires, 17" minimum for the Vette 13" setup, won't give up on the 16" GTA/245/50x16 KDWs combo until a good tire in that size is unavailable. Up side is I could reuse my tall spindle Global West UCA with the AFX.
The Hoosier 16" Lance is ruuning is a great tire, slides right on the GTA wheel, even the smaller 255/50x16 Hoosier is enough tire for our cars up front.
I think you can do 12" brakes on the AFX, haven't looked at the details. Also know the AFX spindle has switched production ownership recently, not sure of the status currently.

Brakes, 13" would be nice, but doesn't fly with 16" wheels.

Dave, I think Lance has all but used up the Hoosiers.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/18/13 12:09 PM

Second set of Hoosiers gets mounted up today, on the fronts anyway...rears are still showing grooves.

Ron has all of the measurements entered and we've begun the discussion of what to do first.

To say it is currently ugly would be an understatement. We have decided on a few areas to work on first and he's working on available parts now. He'll probably post the graphs and explanations up soon.

One thing we know for sure, the front (and probably rear as well) ride height is going back up.

Stay tuned...
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/18/13 05:46 PM

Yeah, I know it's tedius, but I can make it tell me whatever I want. smile

Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/18/13 05:51 PM

Looks like pretty pictures to me... laugh

Can you make them move, maybe post a gif of the suspension articulating? Now THAT would be cool!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/18/13 09:30 PM

So basically what we found is...along with the already poorly designed geometry built into these cars, my car also has a physical defect that contributes to even more problems. I'm not sure exactly what has caused it, manufacturing defect, core support bushings, or it's been hit at some point...but basically the passenger side frame from the spindle forward is pushed up (about 3/16s" at the sway bar mount) and the passenger LCA front pivot point is higher than the other three LCA pivot points by 3/16s-1/4". This canting back of the LCA, even though ever so slight at the pivot point...is making the right side front suspension out of whack and making the car corner differently on left hand vs right hand turns.

I've always known that it does this, now I just know why.

It sounds like the fix really won't be that difficult...and we may even be able to make the whole car better at the same time as we fix the defect. Once I get the LCA off, I'll run a true and straight 1\2" steel rod through all 4 holes the passenger side LCA mounts too and verify exactly which ones are off and by how much. Then you just drill the holes out a bit, line the rod up exactly how you want it (maximize to the benefit) and weld hardened washers back onto each side of the K-member while using the rod as a guide.

Obviously this is a procedure to not take lightly, and probably not during autocross season...but we'll see how it goes. There are other things that need to be dealt with as well. It needs more suspension travel and the LCAs need to be more parallel to the ground at ride height. It also needs the factory LCAs replaced with a better piece.

Likely fixes all done at the same time are an adjustable spring perch on top of the coil springs up front, maybe adding an inch to them to start and taller ball joints upper and lower...done while replacing the LCAs and inspecting for the K-member repair. As soon as we find some LCAs to procure...we'll get started on this.

Stay tuned... smile

Here's the pics...as she sits now.

This first screen shot represents car sitting at ride height.
Pay attention to some differences in the left side measurements & right side measurements. Then notice the roll center is not centered. These differences are the reason why.

Other things to note are:
* The Instant Centers of the left & right A-arm assemblies form different "swing arm" lengths. This is the actual cause of the roll center being 9.3" to the left.

* These swing arm differences will compound with body/chassis roll.

* While it doesn't show on this screen. The right side LCA is tipped "up" in the front of the car, causing the right LCA to have a different angle that affects dynamic caster & anti-dive on that side. On this screen it just shows the "average" right side lower frame pivot as being higher than the "average" left side.
(The individual control arm measurements are actually input on a different screen. )

* The static roll center ends up below ground. This is somewhat common on factory passenger cars. Combine this with high CG's & soft suspensions & the reason why production cars have so much body roll is clear.



In this next screen shot, we have the car showing a "freeze frame" of the dynamic geometry ... when the car is making a hard right hand corner at the AutoX track.

Things to note are:
* In the lower right hand corner, we're showing the front suspension compression & car roll angle. Shock travel on this car is low at .8" & roll angle is high at 3 degrees.

* The dynamic roll center has moved farther underground than it was statically at ride height, contributing to the high roll angle.

* The dynamic roll center has "migrated" 12.4" to the right ... ending up 3.1" to the right of center ... which contributes a small degree to body/chassis roll angle on RH corners.

* The dynamic camber goes way negative on the inside tire (bad) & positive on the outside tire (bad). (This does not account for KPI & Caster with the steering turned)




In this final screen shot, we have the car showing a "freeze frame" of the dynamic geometry ... when the car is making a hard left hand corner at the AutoX track.

Things to note are:

* The dynamic roll center is not as far underground as it was in right hand turns or statically at ride height. This difference is contributing to the car handling different in LH & RH turns.

* The dynamic roll center has "migrated" to 18.7" to the left of center ... which contributes a high degree to body/chassis roll angle on LH corners.


Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/18/13 10:05 PM

This post is from the negative camber thread from last year...had to go looking for it after the new discoveries.


Originally Posted By: SSLance
Originally Posted By: Norm Peterson


I'm also having a bit of difficulty visualizing how the rear cambers could be significantly different, although the difference would tend to explain the greater sensitivity to throttle in left turns that I think I'm seeing in the various videos. Second cup of coffee isn't helping, either.


Norm



You know, now that you mention that, the car is way more sensitive to loosing the back in left hand turns vs right handers...

Can that small of a difference in rear camber, rear toe, or weight differences really make that much of a difference in left turns and right turns?

And if the rear axle tubes weren't welded perfectly straight onto the center section, and that created the camber difference between sides...how would changing the front settings change that rear camber?

I'm also curious how making very small changes on the front of this car, can affect the rear toe?




What I know now is...yes the axle tubes are not perfectly straight on my rear axle, that is a fish to fry another day. But the real culprit to the uneven turns is in the position of the passenger side front LCA.

Almost a year later... laugh
Posted By: Jameson

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/19/13 04:10 PM

I won't quote to save room but the vette 12.8in brakes require a 17in or larger, but the LS1 Fbody front brakes fit with 16's and by grinding off cooling fins you can make them fit 15's.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/19/13 04:34 PM

I think that the biggest roadblock with using brakes other than C5/C6 is due to the AFX spindle being designed with mounts specifically for those brake packages.


Strangely enough, the LS1 pad abutment bracket is taller than the C5/C6 bracket by a 1/2" or so, which means that it needs to be mounted lower on the spindle than the C5/C6 abutment bracket since it is a 12 inch rotor and not a 13 inch rotor (Or whatever the actual diameter is: 11.xx versus 12.8" or so).


Here's a thread I had on this: http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ub...3847#Post923847
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/19/13 07:24 PM

Can you put the car on a frame machine to straighten it out? If not, don't forget to shim the swaybar frame bushing down on the high side. It might throw your steering geometry off too, so you might end up having to modify the idler arm or mount location for it.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/27/13 08:30 PM

Well, we made a pretty good jump on spending some of Lance's money this week.

Phase one parts have been ordered, now we are just waiting in parts jail for all of them to come in. I'll document what we ordered and the installation process once they all get here. Should be a pretty major difference in geometry and setup once they are all installed.

With the upcoming planned changes being made on the car, a bigger bar is going to be necessary. So today I went ahead and replaced the 1.25" solid (31.75 mm) front sway bar that came on the car with a 36 mm bar from a 3rd gen Camaro a friend found for me this week.

Some sway bar facts snipped from the sway bar thread here.

The numbers below are lbs/inch at either bar end relative to the midpoint of the center torsional section. Fred Puhn's number as per his formula is end to end considering bar torsion plus arm bending and is therefore doubled in order to simplify direct comparisons. The difference between the Puhn-based number and Bar Torsion + Arm Bending here is in the Young's and shear modulus material properties, which do vary somewhat. The numbers below represent E = 30E6 psi and G = E/2.6.

Considering only the effect of bar torsion results in unrealistically high estimates, and even Fred Puhn's approach considering torsion plus arm bending is a little high (though certainly good enough for practical purposes).

Stock bar stats

1.25" solid
759 Complete Model
803 Bar Torsion + Arm Bending
983 Bar Torsion Only
829 Based on Fred Puhn's formula

New bar

36mm x .22" wall
970 Complete Model
1027 Bar Torsion + Arm Bending
1257 Bar Torsion Only
1060 Based on Fred Puhn's formula

The new bar is about half the weight of the old solid bar and about 20% stiffer. It was a tight fit, had to rearrange the Gran Prix bar and the triangulated F41 bars a bit for everything to fit...and it's still a bit snug. I drove it up to the car wash after the install and it certainty feels different.

The car is now loaded up on the trailer and prepped for an autocross tomorrow. Can't wait to see how it feels on the course.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/28/13 10:12 PM

LOOSE!!!! but more fun than a barrel of monkeys!!!

http://youtu.be/FqR2GJ1LPM0

Finished 36th out of 103 in raw time, I'll take that. Lotta griping about the course, especially beforehand...I thought it was fun.

Check out the frame flex. That needs looking into...
Posted By: CornerCarver1980

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 01:06 AM

I had a blast today also!! That course was a twisty one for sure.

You're right the frame flex looks a little excessive. Are you using the stock body mounts? The front ones look to be moving around a ton under load. Can't tell if the body is moving on the frame or if the frame is flexing that much. Doesn't look great though.

I can tell you 100% for sure that boxing just the side rails will make it almost 100 times stiffer. That was he first thing I did to my frame and it made by far the most change in flex of the frame.

Bryan had to tow his monte back, there is something in the inside of the engine knocking! I made him shut her down before throwing a rod or something and ruining the rest of the engine.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 03:00 AM

Oh no! I talked to him before our 4th run, he was sitting there with his air running just chilling.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 03:28 AM

Holy cow is the frame ever moving around! That was a great action view, but man, I didn't think it would be that bad. I know the G's are kinda known for this, but it makes me question if all the suspension upgrades that everyone does is even coming close to being fully utilized to their true potential.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 11:56 AM

I guess it's force from the steering box pushing the frame side to side, I'm not sure just how any bracing is going to stop that? Tighter core support bushings may slow it down a bit but who knows.

At least it was all moving pretty much together, I guess that's what the GP and F41 bars help with.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 01:09 PM

You're probably right about the steering box causing it. I was just really supprised to see that much movment. It's hard to tell, but I wonder at what point of the frame it starts flexing? if it's forward of the suspension mounting points, it may not be as bad as it looks. if it's all the way back at the #2 body bushings, we've got issues.

I wonder how one of the SC&C braces would compare? It's a much beefier peice.

Good job out there BTW, that's a pretty descent position to finish.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 01:17 PM

I just noticed something else after watching the video again, I think your GP cross brace is on backwards. It's not suppose to be up against the core support like that. Either that, or I have mine on backwards!?! laugh Not that I think it really is making much difference though.

What did you think of the 36mm front bar?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 02:20 PM

I think that is the way the GP bar is supposed to go. I had it the other way around for a long time but no way would it fit that way with the 36 mm bar there. I had to space out both the F41 bars and the GP bar with washers to make room for the 366 mm sway bar anyway. And everything still hits everything, I've got rub makes between both ends of the sway bar and the frame, the sway bar and the F41 bars, and you can hear the GP bar hitting the core support in the video.

I'm not sure that any of that is causing any trouble though, other than marking mu my paint a bit.

The bar made the car run much flatter, the front stuck better, the rear was loose but very manageable. Once I started over driving the fronts it all went to hell though, my second run was the fastest time, the third and fourth runs were the most fun to drive though. laugh

I could drift the car and power out of the corners into the next ones while still remaining completely in control. It was a blast!!!
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 03:34 PM

Killer video!

That flex was definitely eye-opening. What are you using for a mount for the GoPro for the underside video clips? The big suction cup?


Just picked up a Hero3 and I'd be nervous about running it over... eek
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 03:42 PM

Picked one of these up a month or so ago...when the plastic broke on my GoPro mount.



Ram GoPro mount

Just go ahead and order it, I found it a bit cheaper on Amazon I believe. Then you can throw the rest of the mounts that came with the GoPro away. This is all that you need.

So much easier to line up the camera with this. Stick the cup, loosen the clamp, move the camera exactly where you want it, tighten the clamp back up and drive... Easy Peasy.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: SS Ninja
Killer video!

Just picked up a Hero3 and I'd be nervous about running it over... eek



It would probably be alright anyway, have you watched any of the videos on Youtube with people hitting their GoPros with golf clubs at full speed, playing fetch with their dogs...all kinds of crap people are doing with them to make strange videos...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 07:52 PM

First box of new parts showed up today...





clap
Posted By: JAWSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 08:17 PM

That frame flex is crazy... I know I have way less into my g bodies that most on here that's into handling. I wonder how sloppy mine looks now. I think frame bracing, boxing and body bushings just became a priority.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 10:49 PM

What springs did you get & why is it only pigtailed on one end?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/13 11:15 PM






wink
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 12:52 AM

I never would have thought the frame would flex that much. popcorn
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 01:01 AM

Well, I am putting a bit more stress on it than most do with their G-bodys... laugh
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 01:47 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance





wink





awww com'on lol I actually just remembered why there is only one pigtail. Still curious of what brand though?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 12:27 PM

We are going to use Afco spring adjusters on all four corners to dial in the exact ride height we need, probably going up about an inch all the way around.


They'll look like this...




In the front, we'll use the DSE 2" drop 575# springs I already have with an adjuster on top of it. The tall ball joints should drop the car another 3/8s inch and the adjuster will raise it 1.5" thereabouts putting the ride height where we need it.

In the back we went with a Hypercoil 11" spring 225# which is an inch shorter than my DSE 12" 125# springs but the difference will be made with the adjuster on the top of it as well. The spring is cool because the pigtail fits on the axle spud and the 5" ID up top fits over the adjuster which fits over the spud on the chassis.

This should give us the ability to adjust ride height and weight at all four corners and really didn't cost much at all. So much easier than buying off the shelf drop springs and hoping they are right. Cheaper too...
Posted By: 406monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 12:53 PM

Wow, that was some crazy flex. It is a real eye opener when we discuss our frames. I never would have thought it would react that way. A couple of times I was waiting for the tire to roll off the bead. driving
Posted By: Tunedss86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: 406monte
Wow, that was some crazy flex. It is a real eye opener when we discuss our frames. I never would have thought it would react that way. A couple of times I was waiting for the tire to roll off the bead. driving


I was surprised how much frame flex too.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 01:46 PM

At least the frame pretty much moved as one piece. The bracing helps keep it all together which I hope, helps keep all of the geometry in place.

If the left frame rail was moving more or in a different direction than the right, that would really be a mess...but since it's all basically one piece and just following the tires, it's not catastrophic I don't believe.

To me and my untrained eye, the tires turn, the frame as a unit follows the tires...and the body catches up a bit later.

I'm going to look into a more solid connection between the core support and the frame and then possibly more bracing for the dog house as a solution for now. I can't imagine the forces that would be put on the front fenders if the frame was mounted solid to the core support?

One thing I thought was interesting though, is how the core support was tight to the body. Why bother with putting cross braces inside the core support when that area all seemed to be holding it's shape pretty well?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/13 03:07 PM

Lower Control Arms shipped yesterday, will be here on Thursday!!


That was the big one I was worried about there being a delay on. Everything else shouldn't be a problem getting in.

Detroit Speed stepped up big time. They were out of stock on the arms and couldn't tell me when they would make it through production. We looked high and low for something else to use but they were the best match for what we needed. I finally asked DSE again how long it would take, and the sales manager figured out that there was a pair on their show trailer that they take around to different events.

He held them for me and when the trailer made it back to the shop they pulled them and shipped them to me!! clap woot driving
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS
What springs did you get & why is it only pigtailed on one end?


Gonna look something like this...







Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 03:00 AM

Kewl
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 03:06 AM

Adjusters were like $25 each, springs were $35 each... Not sure why we all haven't been doing it this way for years...

Buy the length of spring you need to get it close with the right rate, throw an adjuster on top to fine tune the ride height and call it good...

BTW, anyone want to buy a set of slightly used DSE 2" rear drop springs?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 05:24 AM

Sorry Lance, just got caught up on the past day or so here.
Like the rear spring idea, also Hypercoil is a great choice, great product from what I've read.
Bob
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 03:08 PM

Just looking through this thread myself. I watched the video, and I saw the movement of the frame. What I noticed, is what looks like alot of movement of the frame, in relation to the body. Is there any chance that what is seen in the video might be somewhat "exaggerated" because of the location of the camera, or the way that the camera is mounted? I'm not questioning the movement of the frame, it just seems to me that there's almost too much movement. It almost doesn't look realistic to me.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 03:17 PM

The suction mount for the camera was mounted to side of the airbox and the camera was hanging down just below the chin spoiler and pointed back.

The mount is very secure, the camera doesn't move hardly at all once cranked down. Basically the camera is part of the airbox which is tied to the body structure.

If you watch the video again, the camera stays in place with the bottom of the core support and the inside of the outer fender. Everything else in the view that is attached to the frame not the body, moves around with the frame.
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 09:46 PM

I can tell from the video that the camera is solidly mounted in relation to the body of the car. The picture is very good-no vibration or distortion. I can see the frame of the car moving in relation to the position of the camera. It just looks to me like there is ALOT of movement of the frame of the car, in relation to the body of the car, and the position of the camera. Is the movement really that great? I just find it kind of hard to comprehend, since I would think that a steel frame wouldn't move that much, especially at the front, with the engine crossmember and the extra bracing that you have on the car. What could cause that much movement? Is it in the body to frame mounts?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/13 10:13 PM

I use a two post lift to raise my car in my garage, the front pads of the lift go right behind the front tires on the frame and the rear pads go right in front of the rear tires. When raising, as the front tires are coming off of the ground, if I watch between the front inner fenders and the frame, the frame will drop close to an inch before the front tires come off of the ground.

That is the same front section of the frame that is moving back and forth under the pressure of the turns in the video, moving down under the weight of the engine as the body is raised up in the air. the only thing connecting that part of the frame to the body forward of the firewall is the two core support bushings sets, which apparently on my car at least, have a LOT of play in them.
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/13 01:55 AM

1 inch seems to be alot of movement, especially if that movement in the frame is occuring in the area between the back of the front wheels, where your hoist pads are located, and the front of the car. I would have thought that the frame would be stiffer in that area, since the front part of the frame rails is boxed, and the open part (C channel) of the frame is further back. Would a frame like the one that is available from Schwartz Engineering be stiffer in that area?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/13 02:20 PM

Here are some better pictures of the new rear springs and spring height adjusters. The springs have a 2.5" pigtail on one end and a 4.375" ID on the other. The adjuster flange has a 3.5" OD the spring sets on. John (Jynxd1) turned a set of spacers for me to make sure the big end of the spring stays centered on the adjuster.





Here is a picture of one of the adjusters set over the spud on the chassis the top of the rear spring rides on.




The DSE front springs that I am going to reuse have a 4.063" ID so John also made me a pair of spacers for the front adjusters.



The adjusters offer 2" of range, from a 1/2" to 2 1/2"





What gets me is these adjusters and springs cost about half as much as any off the shelf drop springs sold for these cars. Just think of how many cars on here have had springs changed out over and over again trying to get the ride height where the owner wanted it... Doesn't this make a WHOLE lot more sense?

Once I test fit everything, I'll decide if the adjuster will go on top of the spring or on the bottom, whichever it fits better on and gives the easiest access to is what I'll use. I think I'm going to drill a couple of holes in the adjuster flange and rosette weld the spacers to the flange to make sure they stay in place. On the big one for the rears, I can probably drill and tap it to run a screw into place but the small one for the fronts there probably isn't enough meat there for that. Heck, the spacers might not even be needed for the fronts, but they are there just in case.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/02/13 02:16 PM

More Parts Porn











Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/02/13 02:58 PM

Nice stuff! What exactly is in the Baer package? Are those some kind of rebuidable upper ball joints? I'm assuming that you're still using an original style front sway bar. Are the end links adjustable for tension on the bar?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/02/13 03:10 PM

The Baer package is basically new outer tie rod ends which have an adjustable height end used to correct bumpsteer. It was a shot in the dark to me, the guy helping me set this all up says we'll be able to dial in the bumpsteer with this once we get everything else set up. We'll see.

The ball joints at Howe heavy duty bases with Howe 3/4" taller pins. They are going to replace the stock height lower ball joints in the LCAs.

The sway bar ends came with the LCAs and do not provide any adjustment, I am going to use them on the 36 mm Camaro bar I just put in the car.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/03/13 02:56 AM

DROOOOLLLL

Most of the movement is body bushing compliance, and I believe it.

Even still, its crazy how easy it is to move even the closed section frame horns outside of the wheel base. I was pushing the rears up by hand to get the bolts started and most of the way tight. All of the movement while lifting the car on the 2 post is very believable too. Even if everything but the middle c-channel and body bushings were perfectly rigid, there would still be a lot of movement at the ends.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/03/13 12:39 PM

Drove the car around a bit with the new rear springs in last night. Had to take the adjustable flange completely off the adjuster and set the spring base down on the base of the adjuster to get the ride height down. Was still a 1/2" higher than the 125# spring that is an inch longer.

Feels a bit firmer over bumps, but no where near harsh. Really like the way it feels in high speed corners, you can feel it set some yaw but not any predominant body roll. Drove down a 35 mph road with the asphalt coming apart (read rough) and it didn't jar my teeth like a 3/4 ton truck would at all, still very car like. Firmer than before, maybe just a touch firmer than what they call a "European Sports car ride" but still plenty forgivable.

In some low speed cutting back and forth (45 mph) I was able to get the front tires to squeal and leave some black marks and the back never stepped out.

More changes today, thinking I'm gonna get the front LCAs swapped in, but we'll see how it goes.
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/03/13 02:09 PM

Thanks Lance and SSM for your responses and your explanations. The video was an eye-opener for me. I just didn't think that there is that much movement in these cars. Lance, good luck with your updates. Looking forward to hearing how it works out.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/04/13 02:43 AM

Think you could talk John into making a few more sets of those spacers? smile

I think he may have a market for them if he wanted to become a vendor on here. I know that I want a set!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/13 02:38 AM




Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/13 03:02 AM

Is that an air ride setup?
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/13 11:45 AM

lol... laugh


Just mocked up so I could do some suspension travel and shock measurements. Little easier to cycle the suspension with no spring in it.
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/13 06:09 PM

Hey Lamce, can you take some pics once its at ride height too?
I'm curious about how much space you have between the bump stop, and the frame.
I installed SPC LCA and their 'progressive' bump stop, and it is quite tall, leaving less than 1" of travel from ride height.
I have some short bump stops too, but the thread is too short to work on the LCA tubes, those DSE bumps may be on my list.
Also, have you modified the rear bump stops?
Thanks! beer
Posted By: Jameson

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/13 07:00 PM

Lance I cant wait to see how this turns out. I raced dirt track a few years so I have always had those spring adjusters in the back of my mind. Ordering a spring for the weight and height you want from Speedway is much cheaper then a name brand slapped on a spring and called a "drop spring" when they all use the same spring rates is frustrating. My next setup will probably be a spring setup like yours and use AFCO double adjustable shocks in a measured height that will be useful vs again off the shelf stuff we hope works.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/13 08:54 PM

Originally Posted By: 84 ZZ4
Hey Lamce, can you take some pics once its at ride height too?
I'm curious about how much space you have between the bump stop, and the frame.
I installed SPC LCA and their 'progressive' bump stop, and it is quite tall, leaving less than 1" of travel from ride height.
I have some short bump stops too, but the thread is too short to work on the LCA tubes, those DSE bumps may be on my list.
Also, have you modified the rear bump stops?
Thanks! beer


We'll have to see... I'm not much on posting pictures you know. wink

I took a bunch of measurements last night and was given a list of a few more to make tonight before we determine exactly where the ride height is going to end up.

There is 4" of travel between full droop and full compression right now, Ron wants me to take the bump stop out and see what hits next and where to try to get even more travel. Tie rod end will hit next, so I'll have to test fit the bump steer kit as well while measuring the bump steer as well.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/15/13 02:41 PM

Making a little bit of progress this week so far. Tuesday night I pulled the driver side LCA and coil spring out and put the DSE LCA with Howe tall ball joint in place with no coil spring. I then used the lift and some car ramps to cycle the suspension to the bump stop limits up and down while recording the shock length and fender height measurements every inch along the way. This will aid us when the time comes to set the adjuster height on the spring to dial in final ride height.

Here is the passenger side at current ride height and all of the old pieces still in place



and here is the driver side at same height but with new LCA and BJ in place



Notice the different tie rod end angles.

This picture shows the UCA bump stop on the passenger side



And here is the driver side UCA bump stop with new parts in place



Both pictures at current ride height as measured by the fender.

I then put a tape measure on the outside of the frame rail and measured to a tread block on the front of the tire (and also a second measurement to a framing square up against the outside of the tire) as I cycled the suspension from full compression to full extension to document how much bump steer is happening with the new LCA and the old tie rod end. That's where I stopped last night.

As it sits the tie rod adjuster contacts the frame just as the LCA bump stop hits the frame. Ron asked me to remove the bump stop and tie rod and cycle the suspension even further up, see what hits next and record shock and fender height measurements as I go...all to further document the new suspension travel points. Then I'll put the bump steer correction kit on the drivers side and measure the new bump steer travel at all points. Once armed with these measurements, Ron will direct me on how to set up the bump steer kit for optimum correction.

I've also been sourcing the needed parts and tools to correct and remount the LCA bushings in the cross member. Since this car is Metric, this was a bit of a difficult task. I ended up going to two local fastener stores and placed mail orders with 2 more stores to get everything I need. hopefully I'll have everything in hand by Friday and can make some serious progress this weekend.

Parts and tools purchased

M12-1.75x110 Socket Cap Screw 12.9 (2) (shoulder is 0.4685, ID of bushing is 0.4750)
M12-1.75x120 Socket Cap Screw 12.9 (2)
M12x24x3mm const. flat washer hard zinc plate (8)
M12-1.75 All Metal Top Lock ZP Nuts (4)
3' piece of 12mm drill rod
Flat Washer, Thick, Blk Oxide, Fits M12, Pk5 (2)

The last item being the hardest to find. Here is how they are described, Flat Washer, Extra Thick, Case Hardened Steel, Black Oxide, Fits Bolt Sizes M12, Inside Dia 13mm, Outside Dia 26mm, Thickness 5mm, Thickness Tolerance +0.4/-0.5mm, Rockwell Hardness C40, Load Distributing, For Use With Die And Jig Fixture Setup. Finding an extra thick, case hardened, M12 washer locally proved to be an impossible task.

I'll use the drill rod to put through the crossmember holes and LCA bushings and elongate the holes in the crossmember to place the control arms in the preferred position. The thick, case hardened washers will be what gets welded to the crossmember to hold the control arm bolts in place once the new positions have been set. Then the new longer bolts with tighter tolerances to the ID of the bushings will be used to hold the control arms in place while not restricting the movement of the control arms up and down.

That's where I'm at now, will update once again once more progress is made. Wish me luck on it all going smooth...

Lance
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/20/13 03:22 PM

28 year old rubber bushings...









New parts, full droop





Full stuff





Video of wheel travel with all new parts mocked in place.

New wheel travel - YouTube
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/20/13 03:23 PM

Since I was still waiting on my drill rod and right sized washers to get here, I didn't any parts to work with Sunday, I built some homemade alignment tools.







Custom fender height measuring device...



Slide plates...




Everything still need a bit of tweaking and I need to reposition my camera differently, but here's a video of them in action for the first time.

New homemade wheel alignment tools in action - YouTube

I think it will view better if I have the camera stationary, not stuck to the car and I need to find out if my digital angle finder has a back light. Also I'll figure out a better way to measure the toe change with more accuracy.

Notice the two pieces of laminate under the tires, had them kicking around...cut them up and they slide on each other real nice. Should be able to hang a tape measure across the front and back of the 1/2" steel rod to measure and set toe real easy by myself and can also measure camber pretty easily as well. If I can figure out a way to set the upright part of the tool in line with the ball joints (can't see them from the outside) I can measure caster with them as well.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/20/13 03:24 PM

Some progress last night. Got my drill rod and washers in today. After having the washers turned out to 0.475 ID I headed home to put the rods and washers in place. As Ron warned me, I had to ream out two holes on the driver side and one on the passenger side to get them all lined up in a row straight enough to get the rod through. After some finagling, I got the rod and washers in place. A couple of the holes could have used a bit more work, but since it's all coming apart and more work on the holes needs to be done, I left it for the night.

Some notes in case anyone else wants to do this on a metric chassis. The stock LCA bolts are 12 mm. I ended up with a 12 mm drill rod, and 7/16s case hardened extra thick (5mm) washers which we turned the inside out to 0.475 ID which is also the ID of the bushings in the control arms. The 12 mm washers I ordered first had 1 mm of play between the washers and drill rod which isn't acceptable.

Anyway, here's the pics of the rods in place.














Also had some time to try out my new laser pointer to check the bump steer. I started at 26" fender height which might be where the ride height ends up, then dropped it by 1", measured, then 1" and measured, then raised it to 27" and measured. I had the graph paper up against the front of the inner fender and was using a marker and there wasn't any room between the marks, so I moved the graph paper up 7 feet in front of the car and remeasured.

7' in front of the tie rod ends, the toe moved out 3/4s of an inch with the 2" of suspension compression, and a 1/4" in with the inch up from ride height...and was the same on both sides. Someone better at math than me might have to help figure out how much it's moving at the tires...I know this though, it ain't much.







That's it for now. Up next is the moving of the holes and welding the washers in place. ugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/20/13 03:43 PM

Actually, it now looks like next is some more testing of the bump steer kit to narrow down it's fine tuning... ugh

Ron seems happy with the results of it so far though which is good news.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/20/13 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
7' in front of the tie rod ends, the toe moved out 3/4s of an inch with the 2" of suspension compression, and a 1/4" in with the inch up from ride height...and was the same on both sides. Someone better at math than me might have to help figure out how much it's moving at the tires...I know this though, it ain't much.


This is exciting stuff!!!

At 2" of compression you had 0.51 deg bumpsteer out.

At 1" of droop you had 0.17 deg bumpsteer in.

To try to level that out, you would raise the outter tie rod a hair. It is VERY sensitive to vertical position change from what I've seen.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/21/13 01:14 AM

Little more playing around with the bump steer kit.

With 0.2555 spacer below the rod end bump steer out 7 feet in front of the tire was as follows

.500" out at 24" fender height
.250" out at 25" fender height
.000" out at 26" fender height
.187" in at 27" fender height





With 0.4710 spacer below the rod end bump steer out a 7 feet in front of the tire was

.250" out at 24" fender height
.000" out at 25" fender height
.000" out at 26" fender height
.000" out at 27" fender height
.187" out at 28" fender height

We are still going to add another 2+ degrees of caster which should raise the steering arm .400" or so, but it looks like we should be able to fine tune the bump steer pretty well with this kit.


Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/21/13 02:50 AM

First question, is the goal of changing the LCA pivot points to adjust roll center, antidive? Any change in the pivot location could effect one or both depending on the new locations. I looked under my car last night, modding the rear pivot would be easy, the fronts not so easy if you're looking for a 1/2" change. This was, and is a mod I'd bet the stock car guys have been doing for years.

When playing with your bump numbers make sure you know what your final ride height is, use that as your zero point and adj/log from there. 26 1/2" is my ride height, your's was much lower, I think you're raising that up again.
As I tried to explain, the steering linkage isn't optimal, your plots won't be linear, it's an arc. So improving rebound bump makes compression bump worse, about a 3:1 ratio. Best bet is to start a spreadsheet and log as many combos as you can while you have the springs/shocks/SB out. If I was you I'd be tired of taking it apart already.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/21/13 12:23 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
First question, is the goal of changing the LCA pivot points to adjust roll center, antidive? Any change in the pivot location could effect one or both depending on the new locations.

If I was you I'd be tired of taking it apart already.


Yes, all of the above. The first goal is to match the two sides together as they are different from side to side now. While I'm at it I am going to move the LBJ forward to allow for more positive caster adjustment. We'll make the call on adjusting the pivot axis for optimum antidive once we know how much we have to move the holes to correct the first two goals.

And actually, it's been apart so many times now it all comes apart pretty easily and the lift helps tremendously.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/21/13 01:01 PM

popcorn
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/21/13 02:29 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
I looked under my car last night, modding the rear pivot would be easy, the fronts not so easy if you're looking for a 1/2" change. This was, and is a mod I'd bet the stock car guys have been doing for years.



I doubt any of the holes will move move than a 1/4", probably less than that on most of them. I'll know more tonight.

And yes, stock car guys have been doing this for years, that's where the idea and process came from.

Picked up some 24" jack stands today on the way to work. This should give me everything I need to keep the frame square and true while I measure, disassemble and cut, reassemble and measure, rinse and repeat...until the ball joints are in the proper position.
Posted By: 93lt1s10

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/22/13 12:23 AM

OK so newbie here ...how do the spacers you added to the rear springs allow for a drop? I'm all an kit saving cash at this point to have more for the lsx swap to get that done but in just a bit confused on how it lowered it. Again newbie here that wants the car lowered badly! Lol
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/22/13 02:13 AM

I bought springs an inch shorter than I had before and made the difference back up with the adjusters.
Posted By: 93lt1s10

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/22/13 02:56 AM

So in a sense with shorter springs and the spacers its like for trucks putting drop blocks in the rear pushing the rear up to lower the body? And what springs did you go with? And what's the rear fender height with the tire size?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/22/13 11:35 AM

Not really in that sense. I'm not sure how long the stock springs in our cars are as mine are long gone but lets say they are 13" tall and that give a fender height of about 28".

If you put an 11" tall spring in it's place that would put the fender height at 26" if nothing else changed. You then have the adjuster to raise the car back up anywhere from 26" to 28" at the fender, your choice.
Posted By: 93lt1s10

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/22/13 02:54 PM

OK now I get if the adjusters lift the height back up. For some reason I thought it was opposite for some reason.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/22/13 06:46 PM

Hey Lance, just to confirm: You're running just the adjuster base (Without the threaded part that needs to be welded) and the spring, right?

That puts you at the ride height that you want?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/23/13 12:00 AM

Correct...except it's a bit higher than I'd like.

Ended up at 27.5" at the fender which gave it quite a rake. We'll see where the front end ends up at then re-adjust the back if needed. I still have the rubber isolators in there which would lower it a half inch if I took them out. Or I could order 10" long springs and put the adjusters in to set it right where I wanted it.

If the front end ends up at 26.5" at the fender it might be just right.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/23/13 12:07 PM

What would the minimum fender height be with the 10" springs? 26.5"?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/23/13 12:22 PM

No it should be less than that. I haven't even looked to see what else is available in rear springs yet, concentrating on the front for now.

Remember that the 225# springs I put in the rear are not compressing as much as the 125# springs I took out. The 125# springs were 12" long, the 225# springs were 11" long and the ride height gained a half inch with the 11" springs.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/24/13 10:17 PM





















I'm freaking physically and mentally wore out...

It all went pretty well though. Didn't set anything on fire and met about 90% of the laid out goals. :t:
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/25/13 05:00 AM

What was the intented direction you moved the holes, was it entirely outboard, parallel to the gound?

Keep in mind the "crush" on the inner sleeves of the bushings is what holds it fast so the rest of the bushing can rotate around it. I would have plug welded the holes first using an alum plate to back it up with an alum rod in the hole, them added the new washers to reinforce the area, but that's me. MIG doesn't stick to alum. 12mm alum rod would be hard to obtain, I know.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/25/13 12:49 PM

The hole movement goal was two or three fold... First the passenger front bucket holes had to go down to get the pivot angle the same as the driver side. Then the back bucket's holes on each side went out and the front bucket's holes on each side went in with the goal being to push the lower ball joint forward 0.400" than it was before while maintaining the exact same distance to the center of the frame.

Ron is pretty adamant that I do not over tighten the bolts when I put the arms in for the last time. He has stressed several times that the arms need to move up and down with zero resistance. From what I can tell, the outer edge of the delrin bushing and the sleeve inside will be snug up against the buckets and the arms will rotate on the insides of the bushing edges.

I had a hard enough time getting the 12 mm drill rod, much less finding it in aluminum. That would have helped though as not only did the washers close up after tack welding, but splatter also got on the rod, both of which made removing the rod for final welding difficult. We did the outer two washers first to get the rod set in place. Tacked them in, removed the rod, welded the washers solid, reamed the washers out a bit as they closed up and the rod wouldn't go back in...then put the rod back in place, tacked the inner two washers in place, removed the rod, welded the washers in, then opened them up so the rod would go back through all four washers tightly, but would still spin.

It was a long tedious process. We achieved most of the goals set out for us. We did the driver side first as the holes just needed to go sideways, not up and down. On the passenger side, we were tired, punchy, and needed to get it done as it was getting late and we couldn't quite get the rod where we had the wheel base number AND the pivot angle number we were looking for. I made the call to get the pivot angle set to match the driver side but the ball joint ended up about 1/8" back from where the driver side is and the center out measurement is dead on. 2 out of 3 ain't bad I guess. We were tacking the washers in place when we discovered we couldn't quite get the rod exactly where we wanted it to be. We would have had to step back and go back to grinding some more to get it there and there wasn't enough time or motivation left to get that done.


Had the local photographer look back through his pics from our last event and he found these...

Before front sway bar and rear springs (taken last fall)



After front sway bar and rear springs (taken 2 weeks ago)






Before...



After...





There was 2.25" rake front to back during the last event which was still a bit upsetting to the car. After my latest changes this weekend, that will change to about a 1.25" rake. That along with the much improved front geometry and improved front lower control arms should make even that much more difference in the car's cornering.

Can't wait...
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/26/13 05:52 AM

I know its all said and done at this point but from my experience in stock clip dirt modified stuff, PERSONALLY I would leave the lower alone with the exception of monoballs, and make all of my adjustments with an upper made of heims, a clevice, swedge tubes and a ball joint holder and some Howe screw ins. Afco makes a bump steer correcting centerlink. If you know how to bump out and interpret the results I would leave it at that. Personally always lower in the front with spindle location, springs mess up geometry especially on a metric clip.
I dont know how many of these terms are roundy round only....



Thats just me, not sure exactly what you have done on your car but I love the look and how you whoop on the FWD stuff in their own game.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/26/13 11:48 AM

Well the pivot angle was off so much with the LCAs in the stock location (on my car anyway), it needed fixing. So if you are already fixing it, might as well fix it better, right?

Not sure if large amounts of caster are desired in roundy round racing or not, but that was our goal here. To get more static caster than KPI. Only way to accomplish that was to move the lower ball joint forward, an added benefit is now the front tire will be centered in the wheel well again.

We'll have to see how it all turns out once it's on the alignment rack.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/26/13 03:58 PM

Did you end up changing the front ride height at all or just tweaking the rear height with the springs and spacers?
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/26/13 04:14 PM

If you know the relative movement of each LCA mounting point in the X, Y, and Z, I can enter them into my software and see what the changes are.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/26/13 04:21 PM

I'm fabricating a way to get the Afco spring adjusters over the front spring cups in the frame pocket next, then it'll all go back together for hopefully the last time.

Probably set the adjusters an inch higher which will put the front fender at 26.25" and the rear fender at 27.5"
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/27/13 05:39 AM

Caster isnt really messed with on dirt, I does effect the way you get out of the corner. I would like to know why you want more caster with an auto x car, seems to me less would be good for the tight courses.
And for the front weight jacks look into screw jacks , that way you can jack weight around at the track easily. without having to get up into the spring pocket to turn the adjuster.

And after looking through your thread I think Im in love with the car, excellent work
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/27/13 11:37 AM

Stock metric spindles have a KPI of around 8.75 degrees. This causes the outside front tire to lose camber with greater steering input. Caster offsets the KPI\SAI keeping the camber in the tire throughout the steering radius.

We won't need to adjust weight for different courses, once we get it set it'll stay.

Thanks for the kind words...it's been a lot of work...and even more so as of late which doesn't really show on the outside. I'm definitely making it more personal now though. Taking a carbide bit to the frame along with a welder, then cutting the spring cups out last night...ain't no going back now.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/28/13 02:55 PM

I've been making a little bit more progress since my last update...

Inside the frame pockets for the front coils, there were spring cups bent down at the factory to hold the top of the coil spring in place. These kept the Afco spring adjuster from sitting flat against the top of the inside of the frame. They had to go...

Before





After some trimming and bending...and some paint to prevent rust





Afco Spring adjuster welded in place.





Then the control arms were bolted into place one last time. I put a layer of grease on the bolts before installing and slowly tightened them down just until they started to impede the free movement of the control arm, then backed them off just a touch. There is zero slop in the bushing area yet the arms swings easily throughout their movement.

Pics of the LCAs in place.









Then it was time to fine tune the bump steer

I ended up with 3/16s" of spacer below the rod end on both sides and the rest of the spacers above and here are the results.



These measurements were taken 91" in front of the contact patch of the front tires. Ride height goal is 26.25" at the fender, I measured the bump steer 1 inch above ride height and 1 and 2 inches below ride height (dive).

I think it's as good as I'm going to get it, I know it isn't perfect but around 3/16s of an inch of bump out 91 inches in front of the tire at full dive, I'm hoping that is driveable anyway.

Next up is to get the coil springs back in the car, hook up the sway bar and bump stop, nut and bolt everything one more time, load on the trailer and take it to the alignment shop. The shop has time available tomorrow, hopefully I'll get the car buttoned up tonight and to the shop.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/28/13 03:35 PM

Great progress. I love the fact that you've done this in such a budget friendly manner. "backyard coilovers"
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 12:10 AM

Lance, your work on this project looks pretty slick. I'm curious to hear how it all works out. How will you adjust the spring height with the adjuster inside the spring pocket? Also, what are the lines running inside the frame in the spring pocket?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 05:45 AM

Not sure why the LCA bolts can't be torqued to factory 65 ft/lb. The inner sleeve of the bushing should be longer than the bushing and the two Delrin washers width. With my Delrin lower bushings torqued the LCA arms move very freely.
The last thing I would want would be loose bolts working against the frame holes, they will egg fast.

When you're on the rack make sure you get Ackerman numbers. See is you can get numbers from 1"-2" droop, if they pull the chassis down 1" with a come-along you could get compression Ackerman numbers. These would be helpful later to design a correct spindle steering arm.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: clean8485
Lance, your work on this project looks pretty slick. I'm curious to hear how it all works out. How will you adjust the spring height with the adjuster inside the spring pocket? Also, what are the lines running inside the frame in the spring pocket?


You don't. You pull the spring back out and adjust them...which I'll be doing once again very soon.

Geometry is hard.

Those are the fuel and vent lines to the gas tank that come out of the frame near the fuel pump.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
Not sure why the LCA bolts can't be torqued to factory 65 ft/lb. The inner sleeve of the bushing should be longer than the bushing and the two Delrin washers width. With my Delrin lower bushings torqued the LCA arms move very freely.
The last thing I would want would be loose bolts working against the frame holes, they will egg fast.

When you're on the rack make sure you get Ackerman numbers. See is you can get numbers from 1"-2" droop, if they pull the chassis down 1" with a come-along you could get compression Ackerman numbers. These would be helpful later to design a correct spindle steering arm.
Bob


I'll keep an eye on the bolts to see if they come loose. I used steel lock nuts on them.

Ron said we could also figure the ackerman numbers out by measuring the toe with the wheels turned.

Unfortunately it won't be making a trip to the alignment rack today. Things don't always go quite as planned.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 01:20 PM

Love it!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 02:02 PM

Not exactly how I felt about 8 o'clock last night... mad
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 02:51 PM

Couple of quick lessons to pass along to the class. First, geometry is hard...especially if you are in a hurry. Second, things very rarely go as planned. And if anyone else attempts tack these Afco spring adjusters in place in your frame pockets, make sure they will clear the shock absorber after tacked in place. wink


After cutting out and repositioning the pass side adjuster last night, I proceeded to compress a spring and put it in place. I knew the fender had to go up 1" so I carefully measured the adjuster flange so that it was 1" lower than the frame pocket and compressed the spring a little over an inch to give me some leeway. Once I had the spring in place and the ball joint tight, I could not get the compressor out because the top tangs of the compressor were stuck against the adjuster. Out it all came once again. One the second try, I couldn't get the bottom wedge of the compressor out because it was jammed against the LCA spring bucket. On the the third try, I realized I only had to grab the middle 3 rings of the coil spring making not only the spring easier to compress but a TON easier to get out once the spring was in place. Somewhere along the line of this I also discovered that my tie rod end separator will not reach to break apart my tall ball joints, something I have to figure out a better way to do for sure. Anyway on the third attempt I got the spring in place and the compressor out. On to the passenger side.

This went pretty easy as I now have the procedure down pat. Then I buttoned everything else up hustling because I need to get the car down and on the trailer as I have a 9 am appointment at the alignment shop. Sway bar ends, bump stops, shocks, and finally tires installed and snugged down.

Set the car down on the ground, freaking fenders are at a tad over 27"... mad

I knew right away what I did. And I knew damn well that 1" at the shock was good for about 2" at the fender because I had documented all of that while measuring for shock travel. It just slipped my mind while hurrying to get this done last night. Needless to say, I was PISSED... I back the car out for a quick spin around the block anyway just to see if the steering wheel was pretty straight and if it would settle any at all once compressed a few times. Right away I noticed it wasn't steering right and headed back to the garage. Further inspection revealed that my tie rod ends are now firmly up against my sway bar. mad

Last time I test fit this all was before the pivot hole relocation and the bump steer adjustments, both of which raised the tie rods enough to interfere with the sway bar.

At this point, the shop is trashed, I'm trashed, and I'm in no mood to fight it anymore. So I punted...

Sometime in the future when I've calmed down and am not trying to hurry anymore, I'll pull the front springs AGAIN and readjust the adjusters properly and figure out a way to extend my sway bar links...then head to an alignment shop. None of this is a death blow, but it can work on one's state of mind. I need to recharge and hit it again later. I guess this is the difference between bolt in suspension kits and custom suspension work. I fully respect what the big companies that develop these bolt in kits go through during this process now. And I still like the way I am going about this and have learned a TON while going through this school of hard knocks. These lessons are the type you don't forget.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 03:32 PM

Hey Lance, it's good to walk away. My projects are smaller compared to yours but my frustration has reached the point where I am very ready to park mine for the winter.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 03:41 PM

Your car will handle better than any car with bolt-on parts, it will be worth it.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 03:55 PM

And already I've been talked back away from the ledge. smile

My consultant just taught me a great trick.

Set the car down with weight on the springs, slip the compressor in the spring and hand tighten it, raise the car with a jack or lift and let the compressor hold the spring compressed. Then the weight is off of the adjuster, reach in there and turn it by hand to adjust height, rinse and repeat until height is as desired.


Thanks for the words of encouragement guys...it's SO close...yet still so far away from becoming reality.

I've already contacted DSE to see if they have a longer sway bar link available, hopefully they do.

Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 04:02 PM

What happens if the adjuster slips off or breaks?? Wouldn't you lose your hand?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 04:13 PM

Hmmm... Excellent point...

I'm not even sure if I could reach it anyway, so I was thinking about welding a couple of tangs to the spacer I put on the adjuster to hold the spring in the center that would hang down inside the coil springs and give me something to use to turn the adjuster. I could turn them around with a screwdriver without having to put my hand inside the spring.

I've got 1/8" thick 1" wide flat stock left over from my wheel alignment jigs that might work perfect for this. Two pointing down about 2" each should put them within easy reach from outside the coil spring and still not interfere with the shock or coil.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 04:46 PM

Once the front adjusters are at the correct length, they are getting welded into position so that they don't "back off" (Thread up or down), correct? Or is it not possible for them to screw up or down with normal movement of the suspension?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 04:52 PM

I do not plan on welding them in place. I do not think they will move once the weight of the car is put on them.

Ron talks like adjusting them at the track for different heights for handling is possible, but I don't see me doing a whole lot of that. I would like to leave them adjustable though just in case I want to change it around at a later point.
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/29/13 11:14 PM

Alot of those screw jacks have a set screw in them to keep from backing out. Ive never had a problem with one moving with the weight of the car on it but, one night on our mod we noticed the lift arm coil over adjuster would turn from vibration if the car was in the air idling.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/31/13 09:06 PM

Well, I don't have to worry about the adjusters moving...had to run them all the way down to the base to get the ride height where I wanted it.

The car is back on the ground, nothing is hitting anything, and the test drive was successful. Albeit exciting...with no sway bars hooked up... laugh Still have to work out a way to extend my end links, but that won't keep me from hitting the alignment shop the first chance I get.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/01/13 03:26 AM

Got a good pic of just the end link and center to center distance necessary?
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/01/13 03:36 AM

No, and I've already given it to my machinist to see what he can come up with, shouldn't be a big deal though. Needs to be an inch to inch and a half longer than it currently is.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/01/13 04:05 AM

Generally you'd like to have the ends of the front bar somewhat parallel to the floor.
The 36mm bar because with it's multiple bends and OD makes this a little harder. If you're using a Moog Problem Solver idler arm keep an eye on the clearances there too.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/01/13 12:17 PM

Yeah, the parallel to the floor isn't happening... Doubt I could do that even with the stock SS bar and this amount of caster.

I need to get the front end aligned, then work on getting everything to clear. I have the off set slugs in the UCA cross bar on the passenger side to try to offset the pivot holes on the LCA that were out of place before and now the Pass side has way more caster than the driver side. I just don't have a good way to see exactly how much either side has and don't want to try to figure it out. IE: if the pass side has 10 degrees and the driver has 8, tilting the pass spindle forward again will help me clear the sway bar pretty easily. IF the pass side is at 8 adn the driver at 6, then I probably won't be able to meet my caster goals...we'll just have to see on Wednesday.

The Idler arm was on the car when I bought it, I've never replaced it.

I will say this, driving the car without a sway bar on either end was an education... Wow...
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/02/13 03:55 AM

Hey Lance the car looked and sounded good. It was good to see you.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/02/13 12:29 PM

Good to see you too, hope you and the rest of the family enjoyed our fine park. Have you got your daughter hooked on autocross videos yet? laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/04/13 02:06 PM

CAr is on the trailer and with me at work, 1 pm appointment at the alignment shop.

Wish me luck.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/05/13 03:21 AM

Alignment went well, car drives great, I'm going on vacation...

Details when I get back.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/05/13 10:59 AM

We re-set the rear thrust angle and pinion angle, then moved to the front and got as much camber and caster as well could get out of the passenger side, then made the driver side match it and set the toe.

Car drives out nice, no shimmys shakes, vibrations, or pulls. Tracks great... No sign of any bumpsteer. Didn't get too aggressive as still no front sway bar end links, they are built though, just need bolted on.

Here's the new stance



Lance is happy, now off on vacation for a few days. Will post all of the specs achieved when I get back.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/05/13 11:18 AM

Awesome! Enjoy your vacation smile
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/05/13 01:12 PM

Very cool!

This ride height is with the front ride height adjuster touching its base?


Have a good vacation!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/06/13 05:45 AM

Yep, 26.25" up front, 27.5" at back fender...all adjusters as short as they will get.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/13 06:30 PM

So, here's the sheet with the new alignment specs



We were aiming for more static camber and caster, but the back upper control arm bolt on the passenger side was too short to give us the settings we wanted. Had a couple of texts back and forth with Ron while the car was on the rack trying to decide which way to go, more camber or more caster, as we had a little bit of play room with the front UCA bolt on the passenger side and we settled on this.

We then set the driver side to match the passenger side and set the results you see above.

Here are my newly extended sway bar end links (with the old standoffs next to them).



I'll get these installed in the next day or so and do a little data acquisition with my Gopro mounted under the car to help get them set in the right place where the sway bar won't contact the tie rods and yet the ends will be set as parallel to the ground as they can be.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/12/13 02:20 AM

Test drive with sway bar end links installed was successful.

This is gonna be fun!!!
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/12/13 05:05 PM

yahoo

So it's all ready to go?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/13/13 02:29 AM

If you are a suspension nerd, you might watch this whole thing, maybe even pause it and back it up a time or two.

If you aren't you'll be bored 30 seconds in... laugh

http://youtu.be/NjsVQ6ldiTg

Car drives unbelievably...the road I was on is a twisty hilly two lane back road near my house that I know very well. I may have exceeded the speed limit a bit on a few of the corners during the test drive. wink I can't wait to get this thing on the track.

I think around 3:20 or so, I hit a dip at the bottom of a hill that used to stuff my tires into my fenders when I had drop spindles on the car. It's the only spot where I think the bump stops might have come close to touching the frame, although I don't really think they ever did. It's finally letting the front suspension...suspend...and travel.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/13/13 02:05 PM

So I drove the car to work today, first time on an extended highway run since all of the latest changes. I must say, the car drives fantastic!!

Not even a hint of bump steer feedback, car drifts just a tad to the right in the right lane and a tad to the left if in the left lane (following the crown of the road), no heavy feel to the steering even in parking lots, no vibrations, and just a real nice tight feel to the springs and shocks. Nothing jarring, or heavy feeling at all. I don't notice any more NVH inside the car now with all of the delrin in the front than I had before with the rubber bushings. I wouldn't hesitate to get in this car and drive it across the Country now...that makes me very happy.

When it was on the alignment rack, we spent quite a bit of time dialing in the rear control arms. We squared the rear end up as good as we could get it with the LCAs and then adjusted the UCAs to set the pinion angle exactly parallel with the trans output. This completely eliminated the pinion vibration that was evident after raising the rear ride height. 1.5 degrees of pinion angle change is more than enough to create a vibration...and the pinion angle will change that much with an inch of ride height change making it mandatory IMHO to put adjustable UCAs on any G-Body with any sort of ride height change.

I didn't hit any fast curves on the way to work, it's mostly a straight shot of highway, but I did have one slow speed exit that I played a bit on. It is amazing how this car corners now. The front is absolutely stuck, I haven't found the limit of it yet. And the rear is a bit loose but with just the right amount of throttle input, it squats down and is planted as well.

Ron coached me a bit on the phone yesterday with how to drive the car with this setup. He stressed that I need to be easy on entry, early and smooth on the brakes, then equally smooth on throttle input once the car is set in the corner while trying to maintain as much speed as possible in the turn. He says it's hard to believe this, but if the rear is loose, you can actually get it to grip by applying throttle which will transfer weight to the rear and make the rear tires grip better. I plan to put all of that to the test this coming Sunday.

In the meantime, I'm just enjoying driving the car. I'm very happy that none of these changes have disturbed the road quality experience of the car and in fact have helped the driveability. I wish all of you could go along on a ride with me to check it out.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/13/13 04:14 PM

If I'm ever in Missouri, I'm taking you up on that offer! laugh

Going to print out this web page just in case...
Posted By: Sixtoes1313

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/18/13 02:43 AM

Very cool stuff Lance! You guys and your damn pro touring stuff. Makes me get all those poisonous mod ideas! Glad to hear after all the pain and suffering it's starting to work out for you. Once you do all the hard work I can copy! ;-p Looking forward to the autoX results. I know all too well the angst that goes into a quality alignment. Spent a few late nights at the shop dialing in my spohn RCA's to get the wheels where I was happy, and pinion angle adjusted properly. It pays off. Tires and alignment have the biggest effect on a vehicle driving properties I believe
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/18/13 12:14 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
When it was on the alignment rack, we spent quite a bit of time dialing in the rear control arms. We squared the rear end up as good as we could get it with the LCAs and then adjusted the UCAs to set the pinion angle exactly parallel with the trans output. This completely eliminated the pinion vibration that was evident after raising the rear ride height. 1.5 degrees of pinion angle change is more than enough to create a vibration...and the pinion angle will change that much with an inch of ride height change making it mandatory IMHO to put adjustable UCAs on any G-Body with any sort of ride height change.


AMEN! I've been saying this for a while and some people still like to disagree with me over that. I noticed vibrations from 1.0 deg of pinion angle (with 4:10's though, so that driveshaft was *spinning* at 80 mph!)

I would pay to drive your car and see how it feels... I can't wait to get this damn MB out of my garage and get a second chassis in there...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/18/13 12:23 PM

I'm thinking about pulling the rubber isolators out of the rear springs which would lower the back 3/8s-1/2" but my unwillingness to reset the pinion angle might delay that project. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/01/13 06:58 PM

New suspension cam videos...

http://youtu.be/N3ggkP3P_tE

Loving the new setup. Still need to get used to it and tune on it a bit, but it created HUGE amounts of grip improvement both front and rear over the old setup.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/01/13 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I'm thinking about pulling the rubber isolators out of the rear springs which would lower the back 3/8s-1/2" but my unwillingness to reset the pinion angle might delay that project. laugh



BTW, I pulled the isolators out which lowered the back of the car about a 1/4". There is maybe just a hint more vibration at highway speeds than before...but nothing even remotely worth adjusting pinion angle over. Most people wouldn't even notice it.

Front fender height is now 26", rear is 27".
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/02/13 02:58 PM

I realized that I never posted the complete list of changes I made along with the graphs that show how they changed the dynamics of the suspension.


New LCA's that move the lower ball joint forward for more caster...and replaced the worn out bushings in the stock LCAs with poly
Taller lower ball joints to move the roll center as outlined in the coming graphs...and increase camber gain.
Raise the car 1" front & rear ... to increase travel.
Bigger front sway bar.
Stiffer rear springs
Adjusters for all 4 springs to adjust ride height & corner weights.
Tie rod kit with spindles studs to correct bump steer.
Modifying & correcting the pivot angle of passenger side LCA.
Adding additional caster with LCA pivot modifications on both sides.

Ron ran some new calcs with raising the car 1" and adding the 3/4" taller lower BJ's & liked the set-up. I've attached the graphs. It creates a powerful migration of the roll center to the inside of each corner (evenly).

Here is the new front end geometry with corrections, ride height change & taller lower BJ's. The 2nd one is making RH turns & the 3rd one is making LH turns. Yes, Ron designed it to migrate the roll center that far & that direction.

Reminder: The illustration is backwards, like your looking at the grill. The passenger side is on the left.


This is at ride height.




This is "in dive" suspension compress, body rolled & making RH turns.




This is "in dive" suspension compress, body rolled & making LH turns.




Those were drawn up before the actual work was done and as it sits now, we didn't quite get to the settings laid out there. My UCA bolts were too short to get the caster and camber numbers we actually wanted, we got close, but not quite there. Once Autocross season is over I'll replace those bolts with longer ones and may even explore moving the LCA pivot points a bit further to get the caster we really want dialed in.

I can already see the advantages of what we have done and like any junkie...I want more. It's pretty damn good just like it is though, much MUCH better than stock.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/03/13 12:19 PM

Cool stuff. Did he ever explain why he wanted to move the roll center that far inboard? I assume the rear roll center is staying pretty static (laterally, at least).
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/10/13 09:07 PM

Well, I've hinted around a little bit about my next project...which is now under way...so I figure I'll start with the nuts and bolts of it here.

An upgrade in shocks was the obvious next choice, as I was competing on 5 year old Edlebrock IAS shocks at all four corners. I guess I left this til last as it is a pretty difficult yet pretty important choice to make in order to get the most out of your suspension.

Ron Sutton worked with the guys at Ridetech and they came up with a shock design that they felt would work the best on my car. With my DSE front arms on the car, here were the measurements I made to determine which shock to use.

Fully extended length 12"
Fully compressed length 8.75"
Ride height length 10.375"

That was about a 3.25" stroke. Ridetech had a 2.9" stroke shock body and a 3.6" stroke shock body to chose from. Ron wanted the travel, so we chose the 3.6" body (Comp: 9.73” Ext: 13.33”) and said we'll just figure out a way to get them mounted to the car so they'd travel.

The rear shocks were easier:

Fully extended length 22" (the Edelbrock shocks on it now only extend to 20" and haven't been a problem)
Fully compressed length 13.5"
Ride height length 15.5"

That's a 8.5" stroke, The shocks for the rear are a 6.9” stroke shock with the following dims:

Comp: 13.125”
Ext: 20.025”

Those should fit fine on the car.

Ridetech sent me a mockup front shock body to try to figure out how to modify my brand new DSE arms to drop the shock mount an inch below their shock mount. Once my last autocross event was in the books I pulled the old shock and set out to try to figure it out.

Here's what I was looking at...





There was going to have to be significant trimming to get the shock body through the bottom of the arm and we were planning on building brackets to bolt onto the old shock mount holes, drop down and mount the new Ridetech shock to.

The more and more I looked at this, the more I didn't like it. Especially if we eventually went to a coil over spring where 100% of the weight would have been on that mount. The most obvious choice was to use Ridetech's Lower control arm in place of the DSE arm. A few checks were made to make sure there weren't any significant design differences between the two that would mess up everything else we had worked on so far and that was a non-issue, so front LCAs were put on the list.

For the rears, Ridetech ships an adapter to convert the Trunion style upper mount to a double shear mount as well as an adapter to do a sideways double shear mount on the bottom side. Looks like this.





Knowing in advance that the shock\lower control arm mount on my QP 9" axle housing is much different than stock, I knew this would take some work. It does... The top mount will work fine or I can convert it to a Trunion style mount that Ridetech also sent. The bottom mount won't work at all







I bought some 3/16s plate steel today, cut it up into some pieces based off of the cardboard templates I made up last night and tonight I will attempt to recreate Ridetech's bottom shock mount, only built to fit my rear axle housing. I made them a bit long to add in some adjustability just in case.

And that's where we stand now. I've got one side of the front off and tonight I'll mock the Ridetech LCA in place with just the shock and measure travel to make sure everything moves freely and plays nice together. I'll also at least get one of the rear bottom shock mounts tacked up and if I'm feeling froggy, may even weld it up on my own instead of farming that part out. We'll just have to see how it goes.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/10/13 09:30 PM

Wow, now THATS how you upgrade shocks!!!!!
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/10/13 11:15 PM

Where's the "Like" button when you need one!?!

Those are triple adjustable, correct?
Posted By: Warriorridge

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/11/13 01:30 AM

wow, that is some nice stuff. drool
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/11/13 02:58 AM

Off to the welder in the am...I forgot to snap a pic with them mocked up on the axle... Friend of my brothers is gonna weld them all up pretty like and strong. Figure that's a smart move since they'll be supporting the rear weight of the car.





I also got one of the front LCAs on with a shock, looks like everything is clearing everything so far. Not as much total travel as I was hoping for though, only about 2.5" from full droop to hitting the bump stop on the shock. Need to show Ridetech the pics and ask what to do next. Also need to put a tire back on and see where in the travel ride height is going to end up...

And clean up the shop...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/11/13 03:09 AM

Originally Posted By: SS Ninja

Those are triple adjustable, correct?


Yep... Glad I've got Ron to help walk me through finding the sweet spot for them.

Still haven't even thought about where I'm going to mount the reservoirs yet. The 2 rebound adjustment knobs are on it.

Also trying to decide which way to mount the rear shocks. The compression adjustment is on the shaft end of the shock and would be much easier to get to if it was down...would just be concerned about a rock kicking up and nicking the shaft or taking the knob out. Trying to think of a way to get the reservoirs up into the trunk on the back side. Not excited about cutting a hole in the floor big enough to get them through though.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/11/13 09:50 AM

Quite a transformation this year Lance!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/11/13 11:37 AM

I was thinking last night, it was right about this time last year that I decided to put the T56 in the car. You are correct Frank, it has been a pretty eventful 12 months hasn't it?

Scary part is, I've got enough projects planned for it to keep me busy a large part of the winter as well... Those are mostly labor related...not really adding parts related though.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/11/13 12:11 PM

What's interesting is that I was checking out the Ridetech website last night and I couldn't find those shocks listed for a G-body. They used to be there, but now the only shocks they list are the smooth body ones.

Maybe they're only available if you call and ask?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/11/13 01:53 PM

Sometimes it's weird finding things on their site

http://www.ridetech.com/store/1978-1988-chevy-g-body-coilover-front-system-triple-adjustable.html

The rears TQs aren't listed there, but they are just the 6.9" stroke shocks found here...

http://www.ridetech.com/store/coil-overs/
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/12/13 10:41 PM

Major progress made today, car didn't fight me at all...pretty much everything went according to plan. I like days like that. smile












Need to spend some quality time with the laser pointer, some shims and the bump steer kit to dial it in, then assemble the springs on the front shocks and bolt it all back up and do some testing.

Probably have to set the toe again and when my caster camber gauge comes in next week I'll dial back a little bit of the camber I gained from adding the LCAs.

So far we are happy with all of the travel numbers, they pretty much worked out like we planned. I can set the front ride height at 26" at the fender and it'll compress down to 23.5" where the bump stop on the shock hits about the same time the tie rod hits the frame. The tie rod needs to go down to correct the bump steer so hopefully it'll all land just about perfect.

The travel on the rears is very close to identical to where it was before. The bump stops on the shocks contact a little bit before the bump stops on my axles hit the frame and I hit the ride height at 27" on my second try, probably need to fine tune it once I get it down on all 4s.

Then all I have to do is figure out where to hang the remote reservoirs...

Then learn how to adjust the shocks...

Then learn how to drive the car all over again... laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/16/13 03:33 PM

So I picked up one of these gems...



http://www.joesracing.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=1176

And last night set about to adjusting my caster and camber settings with it. That thing is the Shiznit!!!

Might be my favorite new tool of the year.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/17/13 02:26 PM

Little update on what I've been working on this week. Everything shock related is mocked up and in place, except for the shock reservoirs.

I've ordered a pair of these



http://www.sealsit.com/grommet_split.asp

And once they get here I'll prepare myself mentally to cut two 3" diameter holes in my trunk floor up near the center of the shelf above the rear axle. The reservoir lines will leave the top of the shock mounts, wrap around the old coil spring spuds on the frame and head to the center where they'll go up through the floor of the trunk and the reservoirs will be mounted pointed back out to the outside of each respective side. Their placement will allow me to open the trunk and reach the adjustment knobs on each reservoir very easily plus give a secure and safe place to mount them out of the way. Hopefully the grommets provide a good clean safe way to seal the holes back up again.

The front shock reservoirs will just be mounted somewhere near the top of the front shocks on the inner fenderwell so all three adjustment knobs up there will be easy to access as well.

I've been working on the alignment settings with the new front lower control arms. I ordered the Joes Racing caster camber gauge and started checking it out Tuesday night. I had to remove my dust caps, the cotter pin and wheel bearing nuts, take the bearing washer out and put the nut back on the spindle to have enough thread to thread the tool onto the spindle. Once there I checked all of the settings.

I knew my steering wheel was centered before so I centered it again and put several pieces of masking tape on the top of my steering column and also on the steering wheel itself then made a mark going across both to give me a reference mark showing when the steering wheel is centered.

To check caster, you have to know when your front wheels are turned 20 degrees left or right. If you notice on the gauge...



On the outside of it there are two edges that are pointed 20 degrees toward the inside. With the gauge on the drivers side front wheel, I turned the steering wheel to the left until the level I put on that end of the gauge was parallel with the body of the car, representing a 20 degree turn to the left. Once I was sure it was parallel, I put a mark on the steering wheel masking tape even with the mark on the column, noting a 20 degree turn to the left. Then I repeated that procedure for the passenger side.

To check Caster, what you do is turn the driver's side wheel 20 degrees to the left, level the bubble on the end of the gauge, then adjust the thumbscrew on the center part of the gauge to set the caster bubble to zero. Then turn the steering wheel all the way to 20 degrees to the right (line up the other mark on the masking tape) and boom...read your caster number on the bubble level. Easy Peasy...

To do the passenger side just reverse the above procedure.

Reading Camber settings is even easier. Level the gauge on the respective spindle and read the bubble on the level.

Now...and this is the part where I can't seem to get it through my thick head how to do this stuff right the first time. It is CRUCIAL to have the car sitting at ride height, on a square and level floor before starting to read or mess with these adjustments.

When I first put the gauge on a spindle, I was so excited about how easy it was to use, I just started measuring, making notes and then went right into making adjustments pulling out shims, measuring, and repeating all while checking for tie rod clearance at the frame at full compression (my main interference point). I had my two post lift arms set under the frame, 10.5" of wood stacked under the rear tires and my car ramps and two double laminated pieces of plywood under the front tires at 10.5" tall as well. Coilover springs on the rear were set to ride height, driver side front shock was installed with no spring, no passenger side shock was installed. After messing with it quite a bit tweaking the driver side caster and camber getting it just so where I thought it was best, I went to the passenger side and it was all out of whack. mad

I then realized what was going on. My lift arms are not exactly level with one another, so as I was raising and lowering the frame of the car with the lift with no springs in the front, essentially the passenger side of the frame was about a 1/2-3/4" lower than the driver side. This WILL mess your readings up!! Not only that, the weight of the engine forces the front of the frame to flex down 1/2-3/4" when the frame is lifted behind the front tires...also detrimental to getting accurate measurements of front geometry.

So, I punted for the night and came up with a new plan of attack.

Last night I first I installed the passenger side shock (no springs) to match the driver side. I then set the rear tires on the floor sitting on one flat 2x6 raising them 1.5" up off of the floor. I set the front tires on the two pieces of 3/4" laminate plywood on the floor, basically setting all tires 1.5" up off of the floor. I then put my floor jack under the front crossmember and lowered the car off of the lift arms and got them out of the way. I discovered that my jack would not go low enough to drop the front of the car to full compression (necessary for setting bump steer) so I put another 2x6 under all four tires raising them all to 3" off the floor and that gave my jack the clearance it needed. Basically this let me set the rear coilovers to exactly the desired ride height and to use the floor jack to raise or lower the front suspension with the complete weight of the car, engine, frame body etc on the jack\frame just like it would be if there were springs on the shocks.

I then only used the jack to move the front of the car up and down as needed and remeasured all of my current alignment settings on both front wheels. Of course, the adjustments I made the night before completely screwed the Drivers side up due to readings being off because the body of the car was canted to the passenger side and the frame was drooping 1/2-3/4s" under the weight of the engine.

What I also found was with the weight on the frame in this correct state, I could get another 1/2" of compression travel before the bump stops settled and the tie rod hit the frame. #startover

I then quit for the night knowing that the next time in the shop the car is all jigged up ready to go and all I have to do is start taking readings again, making adjustments and taking readings once again. It should go pretty fast now, it really doesn't take that long to loosen the UCA nuts, slip a few shims in or out tighten back down and check again and I have a pretty good idea now of what needs to be changed to get things where we want them for maximum front tire contact in all scenarios.

Lesson here, car HAS to be in static ride height condition in order for the tools and procedures to work properly...live it, learn it...

And that's where I'm at right now. Hopefully tonight I'll get a real good set of adjustments made to the camber, caster, bump steer and toe and get the front end locked down. Then it'll just be a matter of installing the front springs, mounting the reservoirs, nut and bolting everything and a test drive to start tuning the shocks.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/17/13 11:08 PM

Hey Lance,

What's the current thought on the rear sway bar? I believe that you're still using a 1" solid bar that's attached to the lower control arms, correct?

Any thoughts on going with a frame-mounted bar, or is that off the table?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/18/13 02:46 AM

Ron says the bar on there now is sufficient,or at least until I put a stiffer front bar on the car. He likes the rear to roll more than the front to release the inside rear tire a bit to help the car turn.

I got the alignment specs all tightened up tonight, now its just bolting everything on for the last time and then some shock tuning.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/18/13 02:09 PM

Alignment is done, as are bump steer adjustments.

Got -0.50 static camber on both sides and +9.25 caster driver, +9.125 caster passenger side. Close enough for me for now, I'll probably fine tune that on the alignment rack once I get some longer UCA bolts in the passenger side.

At 2" of fender compression from ride height, the camber gains to -2.50 and caster goes to +8.25. Toe stays steady until about the same height, then it toes out just a bit as the fender goes to 23" or full compression...exactly as prescribed.

With a fender ride height of 26", the front will compress to 23" where it sits on the shock bump stops. At this point the tie rod is just kissing the frame, it will still move easily for about a half turn of the steering wheel each way before binding up. Lifting the car 1/4" frees it up completely. I still need to extend the stock style sway bar end links a bit to keep the sway bar off the tie rods, I'll have to measure for that before putting the front springs on, shouldn't be a big deal though. I think the bolt will be long enough, just need to add some spacers to it.

Fender will rise to 29" without lifting the tire off the ground giving a front wheel travel of at least 6", 3" compression, 3" extension. Didn't go any further so not sure where the final extension will go.

I have 700# 8" long springs and 600# 10" springs on hand for the front. I'll have to compress the 600# springs approx. 1/2" to pre-load them on the shocks, but we think this is the correct prescription for the setup.

I have 200# and 185# 12" long springs for the back. I'll put the 185# springs on first and see how it goes.

Tonight we start bolting on parts for the final time and nut n bolting everything to make sure it's all tight. Biggest part of this will be cutting the 3" diameter holes in the trunk floor for the reservoirs...

The build continues...
Posted By: robert87ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/18/13 10:30 PM

lance 9 degrees of caster seems like a lot considering factory spec is 3 degrees. what does the much caster do for the car and how is street driving? how about the camber running that much neg camber does it wear the tires inside edge? what are you going to do with your old rear coil springs? super nice job you are doing btw your car is sweet.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/18/13 11:46 PM

What it does for the car is keep a proper tire contact patch on a sharp turn on an autocross course. The caster amount counteracts the KPI\SAI of the factory spindle which puts the front tires in the wrong position in a turn.

With my last setup I was running 7.5 degrees of caster (all I could get) and saw zero ill effects in everyday street driving. They say that much caster may cause an increase in steering effort but I didn't notice that. It also creates a LOT of bump steer because of the raise in the steering arm, so you have to address that as I did with the Baer Bump steer kit (which works great btw if you tune it properly).

Running caster like this actually lets me run a LOT less static camber than most people do that track their cars, .50 degrees of static negative camber is very small.

I am going to sell all of the suspension parts I took off of the car, I just haven't got around to listing them yet. Too busy trying to get it ready for next weeks event. Thanks for the nice words, I'm happy to share my adventures with others that may be thinking about doing the same with their cars someday.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/19/13 10:20 PM

Well, that was fun...

I spent 3 hours today trying to get a spring compressor to work to squeeze my 10" long springs onto my 3.6" travel shocks...unsuccessfully. I only needed to squeeze the spring about a half inch to get the adjuster on. The 3 different compressors I tried all had too thick of tangs to grab the coils and they wouldn't let the body of the shock through the inside once they were compressed.

I was starting to get pissed...and frustrated.

Finally I just took one assembly back apart again and looked at everything real close, then assembled it in my head in a way using a screw jack to compress the spring. What I found was I could assemble the bottom part of the spring\shock, slide the top mount parts in place on the top, put the shock up in the frame with the top shaft through the hole, bolt the bottom mount to the A arm and use a screw jack to raise the A arm, compressing the spring and eventually sliding the ball joint into place and locking it all down. Easy Peasy... 10 minutes max each side.

Tomorrow I'll tackle mounting the reservoirs. Tonight...I'm going drinking...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/20/13 08:13 PM

First test drive = Success
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/21/13 12:56 AM

So I thought this is interesting, and I wonder if the exercise I went though yesterday is why people to use a shorter shock and a stiffer shorter spring when putting a coil over setup on a G-body or similar frame rather than the 3.6" travel shock and 10" spring.

The good news is though, I figured out a way to make it a pretty easy install.

After trying 3 different spring compressors with no luck in getting the spring on the shock, I took the whole assembly back apart and started from the beginning. I knew I was going to have to use either my press or the weight of the car to compress the spring enough to get the spring on the shock. With the shock's top mount apart and in my hand, it hit me...

I put the lower plastic ball part of the mount into the hole in the frame from the bottom. I then put the lower spring adjuster all the way down on the shock body (mistake, will explain later) then the 10" spring, then the upper spring retainer and the aluminum top mount with the clip in place. The length of the spring made the top mount not go all the way down on the shock, but that was okay.

The lower ball joint was loose, so I slid the shock into place in the A-arm and put the bottom bolt in place, then lifted the A-arm while directing the shock assembly into the hole in the frame. Once it touched, I put my screw jack under the A-Arm and used the jack to lift the A-arm and shock up, compressing the spring at the same time. As it got there, I guided the lower ball joint into the bottom of the spindle and lifted it up until it was tight in place. I inspected the top shock mount and everything was right in place.

At this point I kicked myself in the butt as I just did in 10 minutes what I had spent the last three hours trying to do...unsuccessfully. banghead

I put the top two pieces of the shock mount in place on top of the frame and tightened the nut down. Boom...coil over shock installed. I did the same to the other side and lowered the car down to check the ride height. Fender was about an inch lower than we wanted it, that meant the bottom spring adjuster needed to go up about a half inch. While I was doing the passenger side, my brother finished up the install on the drivers side including the sway bar mount and the cotter pin in the ball joint stud. Second mistake...

We tried to raise the adjuster up with the spanner wrench but the adjuster being at the very bottom of the shock down in the dropped A-arm mount, there wasn't room to get the spanner wrench in there much less turn it with pressure on the spring. The smart thing to do would have been to bust the lower ball joint loose again, lower the A-arm taking pressure off the spring, run the adjuster up by hand and re-install. We did it the other way. We used a hammer and a punch to turn the adjuster about 3 turns before we could get a good bite on it with the spanner wrench to run it the rest of the way up we needed. This isn't particularly easy and I strongly suggest to not use this method, but we made it work anyway.

Once both of the adjusters were ran up a half inch we lowered the car down again, jounced the suspension up and down a bit, rolled the car back and forth and measured again...we need another couple turns on each and it was good. We then stopped for the night and today I finished up the install and test drove.

What we've learned here is that it is possible to run a 3.6" travel shock with a 10" 600# spring in the front of a G-body. The pressure it takes to move the front down on the springs feels very similar to the 575# conventional springs I had in it before and it drives very similar as well.

I haven't started adjusting on the shocks yet. I set all three settings at -12 clicks on all 4 shocks for the initial test drive. The rear feels a little bit more stiff than before but the front feels VERY similar to the old setup. Travel, turn in, weight transfer, control, ride, all are very nice as is...but I'm certain I can make them all much better with some tuning, which is next. I need to clean up the shop and spend some time with my wife for a day or so first...then get back after it.

Hopefully this will show though that you can make a long travel coil over setup work on a G-body without resorting to putting a super stiff spring in due to space constraints or install difficulties. It really isn't that hard to do now that you know how.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/21/13 12:59 AM

Here are some almost final install pictures.

Driver Front







Pass Front







Rear lines...









Still need to secure my rear lines to the bottom of the trunk floor away from the tail pipes and figure out a way to plug the gaping holes in my trunk floor. Lines seem to be away from all obstructions and moving parts though and all adjusting knobs are easy to reach and get to.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/27/13 12:15 AM

Parking lot shock tuning test session went well today. I got them dialed in as best as I could get with my street tires, then came home to put my slicks on and went back out to fine tune it just a bit more with them.

Then loaded it up on the trailer and prepped it for tomorrow's event.

Wish me luck, got about 105 other autocross specific cars to whup up on tomorrow... laugh
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/27/13 01:11 PM

Hope you're having a great time out there smile
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/28/13 11:45 AM

It was fun for sure... Bit chilly though, was 27 degrees when I left the house at 7 am. I think around 40 degrees when I made my first run. Cold track made for some interesting grip issues. laugh
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/28/13 12:59 PM

Lance - don't be stingy with details. We are all anxiously following your every new development and look for your feedback!

Best to you on this journey, amigo.
Gordon
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/28/13 06:43 PM

No time to give all the gory details...but here's the video of my runs to hold you guys over until I get some free time.

http://youtu.be/lEHTS6XoM2E

Finally broke my cherry so to speak...
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/28/13 07:47 PM

Got a little sideways on that second run, eh?

What's that squealing sound that I hear from time to time when you're turning/braking?

By the way, that last run with the camera on the rear quarter is great! Can't tell if that's all body roll or a good amount of rear axle movement as well in the corners.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/28/13 08:15 PM

I'm pretty certain that noise is the body moving up and down on the body bolts. You hear it mainly under heavy braking before left hand turns. There is a metal clunking banging sound at times as well, which is either the gran prix bar up front smacking the bottom of the core support or the body hitting body bolts\frame areas as well. I can't see any evidence of anything else hitting anywhere so that's the best I can figure.

I like that rear quarter shot myself, mainly because you can hear the exhaust note better. I think that is mostly the body moving back and forth on the frame backed up by some axle movement back and forth. I will say this, neither tire touches the frame anymore now that I have the rear axle square and true with the frame, and they are pretty dern close, less than a finger's thickness between tire and frame both sides.

Regarding that second run, have you ever played golf? Back when I played, and we'd play on a Saturday when the course was all backed up, you'd walk up to the tee box, stand around and wait and wait for the group in front of you to hit, then finally hit the ball (I usually shanked it) then walk to where the ball is again and wait and around and wait some more. Those were some of the most frustrating rounds I ever played and I generally played horribly at during them.

Well, before run 2, there was about a 30 minute delay. They were having troubles with the timing lights or something. I actually started and stopped the GoPro 3 different times thinking we were about ready to go only to find out we weren't. All of this while waiting in line in the staging area 3 cars from the starting lights. Needless to say, I was pretty amped up to run by the time it was time, and I drove like a bull in a China closet until I spun it out. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/28/13 08:19 PM

This guy was gridded right next to me, and had the same problem the run before...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3650349075288&l=6840960624264000080

Here are some behind the windshield shots from the course designer and his 2011 Hyundai Genesis Turbo

http://youtu.be/CKOhFjEKdI8

I now know how to get through that sweeper faster, made note for next season in case it's used again.
Posted By: robert87ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/28/13 11:52 PM

That is so cool. How much improvement did you notice with the new upgrades?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/21/13 09:22 PM

Body Bushing Replacement Project has commenced...

Since I knew that I'd need the frame sitting on the wheels to get the bushings all trimmed to fit properly and I knew that I needed to do some work on my billet wheels too, I broke out the stockers.



Old School... Still looks good too, IMHO...



Crib stands work like a champ.

Here is what the core support bushings look like with the weight of the car on the tires.



And with the frame lifted in between the wheels...



I'm hoping to tighten that up with new bushings in place.

I set the car on the stands and started loosening body bolts starting at the #1 position. They all came out pretty easily, if they'd start to tighten up and get stiff I'd reverse the wrench a couple of turns then continue loosening the bolt. All of them came out real well until I got to #6 driver side. A half of a turn with the wrench is all it took...



I was a bit discouraged but went ahead and took the other 3 bolts behind the rear tires out. #6 passenger side was the second worse, but it came out whole. Here's the old vs new pic...





Thankfully I think there is enough of the broken bolt sticking down out of the nut that I should be able to get a hold of it with something once I get the body lifted off the frame.



I'm pretty sure that's the only spot on the frame that will need a repair as well. The rest look pretty good.





Well, maybe not good but...hopefully good enough.


I've got the front fenderwells out, and I've loosened the front and rear bumpers...and all of the body bolts out. I'm trying to decide exactly how far I need to lift the body and what else I'll need to take loose depends on that.

Main thing I don't really want to take loose is the radiator hoses...taking the master cylinder loose isn't that big of a deal.

Other than that, I'm done for the day. Need to order some body bolts and some rust converter and paint...
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/21/13 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Here is what the core support bushings look like with the weight of the car on the tires.



And with the frame lifted in between the wheels...



I'm hoping to tighten that up with new bushings in place.

..


Is this before or after you removed the bolts?

For the broken #6, it might be easiest to to take a holesaw to the trunk floor & get it out from above.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/21/13 11:47 PM

That was with the bolts in place and tight...

I'm hoping there is enough meat sticking down that I can clean it up real good, weld a nut onto the bolt then use a wrench to get it out. The heat from the welding will also help to break the rust free. The rest of them came out of the cage nuts pretty easily...this one just broke because it had rusted so thin.

I can't tell where or how to get into the inside area where the nut is from the trunk, it's pretty hidden.

Thinking pretty seriously about draining the coolant and just lifting the whole body up off the frame. I do NOT want this to turn into another "Electric fan upgrade" though... laugh

Can you take the shock bumpers completely off without taking the bumper covers loose? With the bolts attached to the bumper going back towards the shocks it appears as if not...
Posted By: Warriorridge

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/21/13 11:59 PM

You might as well just take the body off the frame imo. It's a little more work to unhook everything, but its so much easier to work on stuff without the body and frame getting in the way of each other. And it really not all that hard to do. Jmo, though.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/22/13 12:19 AM

I'm reading Bob's body bushing thread again... Driveshaft loop, don't let me forget to take the driveshaft loop loose...
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/22/13 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
That was with the bolts in place and tight...


Holy cow, that had to be contributing to your previously posted videos of the front of the frame moving around so much.

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Can you take the shock bumpers completely off without taking the bumper covers loose? With the bolts attached to the bumper going back towards the shocks it appears as if not...


No, not gonna happen.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/22/13 04:36 AM

Lance and I talked on the phone earlier tonight, think he's got a handle on the bumper/shocks now. Once he gets the body separated from the frame he'll be able to see what the frame holes look like, and the body "caged nuts" locations also.

As Lance stated he doesn't want this to turn into another "electric fan upgrade" type project. If you doesn't need to do frame hole repairs there is no need to lift the body very high.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 02:33 AM

I wonder how my car would drive with 14 new body bushings held in place with 13 bolts?
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 03:41 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I wonder how my car would drive with 14 new body bushings held in place with 13 bolts?

does this mean the extraction didnt go so well?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 12:56 PM

Yeah, plan A was a bust...

I guess I need to learn how to take the rear bumper cover off so that I can get a bit more room to work on it.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 01:27 PM

I raised the body about 5 inches above the frame but it is still pretty tight to get in the area. Frame on the bottom side, covered by the fender hanging down on the outside, and the gas tank on the inside. Can only really get to one side of the bolt through the rear tire area.

I cleaned the bolt the best I could with a wire wheel and tried to get a nut on it. The threads are completely gone and of the nuts I had on hand, one wouldn't get started and the other slid all the way up to the cage nut. I was able to get the smaller one half way force threaded onto the bolt and attempted to weld it to the bolt. This is where I ran into trouble, I could not get the ground clamp anywhere on the body where the ground would conduct to the bolt. I ended up just holding the ground clamp up against the nut on the back side while trying to attempt to weld them together from the front. After a couple of attempts I thought I had them bonded...but just a little bit of pressure on the wrench broke the nut free again.

With the nut on the bolt, just a very little tip of the bolt is sticking through and there isn't enough room above the nut to stitch a weld there either. And with the ground clamp just up against the nut, the nut gets red hot very fast and starts burning but it doesn't appear as if the penetration is getting to the bolt at all. I'm assuming this is either because of the ground situation, corrosion on the bolt or just my lack of welding skill. I gave up for the night...

The only thought I had to try before going with the "cut the bolt off and drill it out method" is to make a small piece of rectangular shaped 3/16s steel and drill a hole in it just large enough to fit over the bolt. This way I could slide it up over the bolt and have a larger area of bolt to weld to the piece of steel. I could then either try to turn the steel or slide a larger nut over the bolt and weld it to the steel plate and then turn them both with a wrench. The idea of the steel is it's thinner which will give me more of the broken bolt below it to get a better weld on. Does anyone think that is worth a shot?

If that doesn't work, then I'll have to pull the rear bumper cover and possibly the front bumper cover, radiator hoses, brake and master clutch cylinder assemblies and the engine wire harness and go ahead and lift the body up off of the frame to get better access to the area to start the drilling out process.

Aren't cars fun...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 04:12 PM

Just finished shopping...

4 frame repair washers ordered from Kirban
8 body bolts ordered from Fastenal
2 Eastwood Internal Frame Coating w/Spray Nozzle
3 Rust Encapsulator Black 15 oz.aerosol
3 Extreme Chassis Black Satin 14 Ounce Aerosol

With any luck at all I'll have all of that at home before next weekend.

Now all I gotta do is get that damn bolt out...
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 04:46 PM

Man, I sure hope your weld-on nut does the trick.
The tank removal is a 'quick' deal, but you already have experience with that from the first go around.
I'll be keeping tabs on your project, mine needs bushings, and I'm praying the metal is good, as well as the bolts.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 05:07 PM

I didn't think about pulling the tank...that would free up some real estate for sure...

Too bad that sumbiatch is full the brim of stabil enhanced premium right now... mad
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 06:40 PM

I used my big floor jack with a plywood sheet attached to the cup via some roofing nails.(cut to a size slightly less than in-between tank straps)
Crude redneck engineering, but it worked like a charm, once you get the balance figured it goes easily, just a little wrestling with the neck.
I even had my then 12 year old manning the jack, while I wrestled the tank, also a full tank, of course. tantrum
I took the license plate frame out, but left the gas cap on.
It went fast after the strap bolts were cooperating, don't forget the ground wire.
beer
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/23/13 08:17 PM

I think I'd rather pull the rear bumper cover and just raise the body up further than to fight with dropping the tank...

Maybe...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/24/13 08:57 PM

Plan B




Titan Stud Extractor... $19.50
WD 40 Rust Penetrant... $6.99



10 minutes later...after a little heat, a little penetrant, a little bit of torque, a little more heat...then some more spray...then one more time with the extractor and BOOM!!!




Lance wins!!!


I then removed all of the factory rubber bushings and slid the body portions of the Poly Graphite bushings between the frame and body and set the body down on them, then set the weight of the body and frame on the wheels...and checked the tightness of all of the bushings. They all fit real well...only the #3 bushing on each side is a bit loose. Looks like one washer from the old bushings should be just about right to snug it up tight with all of the rest of them.

The passenger side is sitting at almost exactly the same height as it was above the frame with the factory bushings and the driver side is up about .015" from before. I think I'm gonna call it good. The passenger #1 bushing was a bit loose then I discovered that one shim was still stuck to the bottom of the factory bushing. Once it was slid into place...snug like all the rest. I'm gonna call it good.

Here is the worst of the frame holes... #6 driver (behind rear tire) with the new bushing sitting in place.





Here is the second worst...#2 passenger side (behind the front tire) with the new bushing in place.



Here is #2 Driver side...



And here is #6 passenger side



I think I'm alright with just cleaning them up and coating them to protect them from getting any worse.

All of the rest of them are almost perfect...as are all of the body locations and cage nuts. It's amazing really...check these out.







Lance is very VERY happy to have this part of the job past him. Just a little bit more cleaning up and coating, tapping out the nuts, lubing everything up and installing the rest of the new bushings and the new bolts, lining up the body and cranking everything down.

I'll probably drive it like that for a bit then if I think it's necessary I'll cut up a delrin puck for the #s 1 and 2 positions to really snug things up. I can also plan ahead on a frame repair later on if necessary as well. I think I'd like to wait until I get a mig welder before I do that though. The flux core wire welder just makes too much of a mess.

Oh yeah...the brown truck stopped by yesterday as well.




Merry Christmas to me!!!
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/24/13 09:49 PM

It's a Christmas Miracle!


What's the story with the wheels? Inquiring minds want to know!

::edit:: Just saw the box. 9.5 wide on the front? Hmmm.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/24/13 10:08 PM

I'm gonna run 9.5s with 275s on all four corners next season. I'll keep my 8"ers to put on the front for regular street driving. The square setup on all four will give me plenty of options in regards to rotating for even wear plus a TON of front grip on race days.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/24/13 10:26 PM

That stud extractor did the job for ya, cool, that saved a lot of aggravation.

Seems like the frame holes that are eroded are the typical ones, #2 and #6s. My #2R was was a little worse than yours and I chose to fix it, the #2L was still cherry. I consider the #2s to be the most important bushings on the car.

Glad all the body caged nut areas were in good shape.
Don't go nuts tightening down the body bolts, retighten them again later.

NICE WHEELS! You may have to put adjustable stops on the LCA to limit their travel.

Have a Merry Christmas, it seems that was yesterday.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/24/13 11:08 PM

I'm half wondering if I couldn't take one of those washers I've got on the way from Kirban and weld it onto the bottom of the frame rails on those couple of spots? I have zero concern about weight support as there is plenty of good frame coverage by the bushings, my only concern would be lateral support where the hole is hogged out a bit. If I put the washer up on the bottom side there is plenty of good to weld it to, and that would help hold the bushing from moving side to side. I'm not really worried about that too much either as on the exact opposite side of the ones hogged out the other side is pretty solid still.

I'd have to see how thick the washers are and how the bottom piece of the bushing fit with it in place...but I'm considering it. Leaving as is is my #1 choice, possibly putting a washer on the bottom side #2 and cutting out and patch welding in from the top #3.

I won't do that now regardless...at least not until I get a mig welder. At least I now know what I'm up against and hopefully I've stiffened things up considerably by just doing this.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/12/14 12:00 AM

So I did in fact decide to repair the #2R and #6L frame holes, the details of those fixes can be found here.

After the repairs were complete and the frame was coated and painted inside and out, I set about putting the PST PolyGraphite bushings in place and buttoning up the project.

The body sat down on all of the bushing washers at just about the same time except #3. I had a couple of washers on hand with a big enough hole in them to put between the top bushing washer and the body which filled the gap perfectly. A quick coat of paint on them and in they went. While the paint on those and the #1 shims was drying, I set about squaring the rear of the body up with the chassis.

It was 5/8s of an inch to the driver side at the axle centerline...so the body needed to move to the passenger side 5/16s of an inch. Ratchet straps did the trick.



I then tried to get the #6 and #7 bolts started...which proved to be a challenge. The factory bolts are 79mm long and pointed on the thread end, the new bolts I bought from Fastenal are 75mm long and square ended. I didn't think that 4mm would make a difference, but in many cases...it did. The trick I finally learned was to use a longer old factory bolt (cleaned up and threads chased) to line the bushing, sleeve, washers, and cage nut up...then back it out and then put the shorter new bolt in its place. In some cases the body had to be sitting on the bushings to get these bolts started. I finally got all of the new bolts in every place but one, which I had to use a painted old bolt that was still in good shape but had I to do this job again, I'd buy 79mm or even a bit longer bolts for sure.

I got the 4 back ones started and had to squeeze the body back square a bit more with the straps and then started getting the rest of the bolts in. Even with the lift it's a bear to get the #3 stub from the body down into the washers and bushing...especially by myself. I finally got my Dad out there to help me...he'd raise and lower the lift that was lifting the body while I'd line things up and get the bolts started. Once a bolt was started I'd move on to the next one. It went pretty quick after that.

Once all bushings, washers and bolts were in place and started, I checked the squareness of the body again and both the front and the back needed a bit more of a tweak. Again a ratchet strap hooked to the body on one side and the frame on the other proved to be the easiest way to nudge it over. Once square I set the body down on the bushings one last time and tightened all of the bolts up starting at the back working my way forward in a crisscross pattern.

I then reattached all of the cleaned up and painted bumper hardware and tailpipe hangers and called it a day. Still haven't put the front inner fenders back in but I have a couple other jobs planned that will be easier with them out.

I checked the fender ride heights with the car snugged down and back on the tires and all 4 corners are within an 1/8" of where they were before I started. If I bounce the front up and down and measure, the fronts are an 1/8" down and the rears an 1/8" up. If I bounce the rear of the car and measure, the rear is down an 1/8" and the front is up an 1/8". I'd say it's right on where it was before, just a bunch more secure in place and square.

Here's some pics of the snugged down bushings...

#7 Left



Think this is #4 Right



#3 Right



#2 Right



#1 Right





#1 Left





BTW, remember this picture of #1 left when the car is lifted on the lift and the front end of the frame sags under the weight of the engine?



This picture was taken of the same spot with the car lifted on the lift but new tighter bushings holding the frame up and in place.



Problem solved...
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/13/14 03:40 AM

Hey Lance, I had a question about your gauges.

I seen on the control box theirs an out put for a shift light. Is this option already programmed into the gauges? can you scroll through and set the rpm level for it, or is it an additional add on from Dakota?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/13/14 12:52 PM

No, you can set it at whatever RPM you'd like. You will be amazed when you get into programming the gauges what all you can set them to do.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/16/14 06:04 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Oh dear...what have I gotten myself into?



Dash cluster connections to the Dakota Digital control module



I ran the loom under the dash over to the glovebox where I think I'm going to mount the module and the switches.



Here is the new cluster fitted and placed into the bezel



Here it is lit up for the first time.




Still need to install senders and run the circuits for the oil pressure, water temp, and VSS and figure out why the tach doesn't work...but the fuel gauge and Volt meter work and it all lights up, so I'm calling it good for now.

Next step is to drop the column and install the third pedal. Then I'll get it up on the lift and start the removal of the 200R4.


Did your gauges come with the additional wiring and those red scotch locks Lance? Mine did not. Also how Am I supposed to tell with factory colored wire does what going into the stock cluster? Did you run a ground wire for the fuel sending unit all the way back to the sending units groundon the body of the car?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/16/14 06:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86


Did your gauges come with the additional wiring and those red scotch locks Lance? Mine did not. Also how Am I supposed to tell with factory colored wire does what going into the stock cluster? Did you run a ground wire for the fuel sending unit all the way back to the sending units groundon the body of the car?


No, I had the side clip scotch locks and extra wire on hand.

I'm looking for the list of circuits going to the dash now, I'll post it when I find it.

I pulled the power and the ground from the dash circuit over to the VHX control module and I'm pretty certain I pulled the fuel gauge from there as well. I did not run a separate ground anywhere.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/16/14 07:00 PM

Thank you Lance. Your sharper then me when it comes to this wiring stuff, and I appreciate the help.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/16/14 07:01 PM

Here you go, this thread might help you out a bit...

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=952235&page=1
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/16/14 07:08 PM

Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
Thank you Lance. Your sharper then me when it comes to this wiring stuff, and I appreciate the help.


Crap man I was nervous as a hooker in church when I dove into that project... I just went extra careful and labeled EVERYTHING...

Buy extra wire and trim the ends back later when you are hooking the controller ends up.

What I did was hook each circuit up to the dash pinout, leave plenty of extra wire and labeled the other end of it with masking tape. Once i had all of the circuits connected, I ran them in a loom over to where the controller was going to be, mounted the controller, then trimmed each wire and hooked them up one at a time.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/16/14 07:09 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I'm reading Bob's body bushing thread again... Driveshaft loop, don't let me forget to take the driveshaft loop loose...



Mental note to self...

BOLT THE DRIVESHAFT LOOP BACK IN PLACE BEFORE TEST DRIVE!!!!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/16/14 11:53 PM

Another senior moment?
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/17/14 03:02 AM

Trying to prevent a senior moment... laugh
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/17/14 06:59 PM

Thanks again for the help Lance.I have almost everything working.

Except for my reverse lights, which I'm pretty sure is a bad switch on the transmission and I cant seem to make the lights come on in the cluster when turning the headlights on.

Do you remember what wire you ran to the "DIM" on the box? I ran the gray wire.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/17/14 07:12 PM




The headlights run off the Grey #5 one I believe.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/17/14 07:30 PM

Sorry, busy here and forgot to finish my post. Put a DOM meter on the grey wire and see if it lights up when you turn the headlights on...

If it does, it should light the gauge up. In fact, the gauge should light up even when the headlights aren't on. You can adjust the brightness of the lights in the dash on both settings, lights on and lights off.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/17/14 07:37 PM

The grey wire doesn't light up when I turn the lights on, and if I unhook it the tone box goes off until it's hooked back up. Right now I have the cluster so it's lit up anytime the keys on. I'll keep messing with it, thanks again buddy.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/17/14 07:54 PM

Hmmm.... Did you ever put the old gauges back in the car after the rebuild? Wonder if the wires to the headlight switch are messed up?

If you still have easy access to the old dash connector, try to see if there are any other pins that light up only when the headlight switch is on.

It's probably not a big deal, with mine I have both of my settings at about the same level and you really can't tell on the dash if the headlights are on or off. And the brightness doesn't bother me when driving the car at night.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/18/14 08:42 PM

Lance, any seat of the pants updates on how the car feels with the new bushings?
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/18/14 11:02 PM

Looks good...sitting there on the rack still. wink

I finished up my other project today, upper control arm bolts...and finished putting the inner fenders back on. Also reinstalled the driveshaft loop.

Tomorrow I pull the rear axles to try one more time to seal my axles up and clean up a bunch of rear end grease. Then rebuild my e-brake cable setup...then maybe a test drive...
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/19/14 01:34 AM

I'm sure it's pretty chilly out there in MO, make sure you check the tire pressures. When I drove my car on Fri for the first time in more than a month the temp was a balmy 34. Between the 37 psi I run in my front tires and the poly bushings I could feel the difference in the car, harsher ride and every crack on the road was noticeable. I know cold tires and cold poly bushings along with all Delrin suspension bushings cause this, come on 70's.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/19/14 02:06 PM

Ever since the first time I tried to do a "performance" alignment on my car, I ran into an issue getting all of the negative camber I wanted because my upper control arm bolts weren't long enough. Yesterday I remedied that situation.

Here's what the passenger side looked like with 0.6 degrees of negative camber...



See the back bolt there has no threads sticking out of the nut...we even took the washer out between the nut and the control arm to get every last bit we could out of it.

I took the control arm loose and used a C-clamp to press the bolt out of the frame. Here is the factory bolt and it's new replacement side by side. The new bolt is a class 10.9 12mm x 1.75 70mm long, about 15mm longer than the stock bolt.



The rest of the parts for the day



I had the inner fenders out because of my body bushing swap project so I figured it was the easiest time to do this as well but I'm not ready to do a new alignment at the time, so my plan was to just put shims back in place to set the alignment back where it was for now.

I put the bolts in the frame and then ran nuts down and snugged the bolts up tight. I ordered bolts fully threaded because I wanted to be able to use nuts to hold the bolts in place. I then put a couple of washers on the bolts and a shim or two to get the thickness that matched the stack of shims I took out.



It took some finagling to get everything in place as I had to hold the UCA in place (still attached to the spindle), run the bolts in, start the nuts and run them down as they drew the bolts through the cross bar. The cross bar would not go over the bolts once they there bolted to the frame first due to the headers.

Lots of thread available now for any adjustment I might need...



Snugged up tight



Before I put the inner fenders back in, I went ahead and did the driver side as well. I've never ran out of threads on this side, but figured just in case...might as well do it now.



On the back bolt, there weren't enough shims to make up the thickness of the nut so I left it out. When it comes time to align it like it needs to be, if there is room then for a nut I'll put one in.
Posted By: Jameson

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/19/14 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
The grey wire doesn't light up when I turn the lights on, and if I unhook it the tone box goes off until it's hooked back up. Right now I have the cluster so it's lit up anytime the keys on. I'll keep messing with it, thanks again buddy.


With my Dakota install the dash lights do not run unless the key is turning to the run position.

Lance is that the same with yours?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/14 12:26 AM

Pretty much ever since I have had this Quick Performance 9" rear axle, I have fought the passenger side axle seal (or the lack thereof) leaking rear end gear oil. QP uses a Moser Billet Torino style (big Ford) axle end and Moser axles with sealed bearings pressed on them. Their thought is the sealed bearing will stop the gear oil from leaking...it doesn't.

I finally learned that there is a step down inside the end that a National part #473229 seal fits into so I picked a couple of them up last week. Here is what the axle end looks like.



and here is what it looks like with the seal pressed into place.



ID of the seal is 1.5" which matches the axle. Sure hope it works...

I cleaned a LOT of leaked gear oil up today. And I just LOVE the smell of gear oil.

Also put a new E-brake cable on the passenger side and test drove the car.



Everything feels pretty good but it was hard to make a comparison with those old stock size tires on the car, need to get my new rims cleaned up and sealed and some new rubber on them then really take it for a shake down run.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/14 12:40 AM

Originally Posted By: Jameson
Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
The grey wire doesn't light up when I turn the lights on, and if I unhook it the tone box goes off until it's hooked back up. Right now I have the cluster so it's lit up anytime the keys on. I'll keep messing with it, thanks again buddy.


With my Dakota install the dash lights do not run unless the key is turning to the run position.

Lance is that the same with yours?


I'm not sure, don't think I've ever turned the headlights on without the key on... I'll check it next time out.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/14 01:11 AM

My Moser rear has those seals in a similar 3 inch sealed bearing ford style axle end. I bought new seals from them because I nicked one removing an axle some time ago. My rear don't leak a drop for what it's worth.

I would say who ever built that messed up. I never seen a large bearing ford end without that axle seal. I have worked on many cars of my own plus buddies and they all have them.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/14 01:34 AM

QP swears the seals aren't needed. Everyone I know with a QP 9 has fought this. I'm just glad I finally found the right seal and got it to fit into place.

Hopefully the grease I packed into the bearing before I put the seal back on it keeps it alive.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/14 01:40 AM

Call Moser they will tell you different, that's how the axle end is designed just for that oil seal.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/14 01:45 AM

Moser is the one that gave me the seal number to use...
Posted By: Precision Power

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/14 07:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Jameson
Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
The grey wire doesn't light up when I turn the lights on, and if I unhook it the tone box goes off until it's hooked back up. Right now I have the cluster so it's lit up anytime the keys on. I'll keep messing with it, thanks again buddy.


With my Dakota install the dash lights do not run unless the key is turning to the run position.

Lance is that the same with yours?


That's the way mine are.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/14 04:08 AM

Lance if you get a chance post a pic of your left and right UCA shafts, shims installed for -.6 degrees camber. Interested to see what the shim stacks look like. With my setup I run -.3 camber and in the left rear shim location I run no shim and offset shafts to get that.

Good luck on the 9" seals.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/14 12:27 PM

You have to remember Bob, I've changed the position of my lower ball joint a couple of different times now. The last time was when I put the Ridetech lower control arms on which moved the lower ball joint not only forward .400 inches but also out from the centerline 3/8s" I believe. That alone added camber without even touching the UCA shims.

The shim stacks that are in the pics above were nearly the same with -.6 degrees camber with the DSE lower control arms and -1.2 degrees camber with the Ridetech lower control arms.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/14 02:04 PM

Doesn't a "sealed bearing" mean that it's designed to be packed with grease rather than supplied with oil from an external source? If my understanding is correct, your current configuration with an axle seal isolating the bearing from gear oil is correct and the "sealed" in "sealed bearing" doesn't refer to it's ability to seal the housing from the outside.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/14 02:29 PM

You know that Bernie, and I now know that...but for some reason Quick Performance refuses to believe that.

Their main business is building housings for dirt track racers...I don't know if they put these same housing ends on their dirt track housings or not, but can't imagine them sealing up under those circumstances very well either.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/26/14 07:28 PM

This weekend I was able to finish up the performance minded wheel alignment, reset my pinion angle and bolt the street tires back up and run down to the car wash to rinse the layer of shop dust off the car. During the test drive I noticed a bit of interference coming from directly under the console and pretty much knew what it was right away. Between lowering the pinion angle 2 degrees and a slight raise of the body from the frame, my drive shaft loop was now just a bit too close to the drive shaft. With the car back up on the crib stands (Man, I've used the heck out of those things since building them) a closer inspection revealed that the loop was just a bit off center and just a bit too close to the yoke.

A couple of large washers were used to space the loop down a bit and that did the trick.

Another longer more intensive test drive proved the fix worked, no more interference.

It was in the 50s outside and sunny, which is warm but not really summer weather. The ride started out a bit springy I'll call it. As with most ride characteristic changes, they were more evident from the rear of the car than the front. There seemed to a be a bit more of a bounce after a bump from the rear than before. The more I drove it though, the better or closer to normal it got. Could have been just getting more heat into the tires or possibly even a little bit of a break in period on the body bushings.

The front felt a little bit different also, but I also made a pretty drastic change to the wheel alignment (-0.6 to -1.6 camber) which I'm sure had an effect too.

My GoPro battery was dead so I couldn't do any data acquisition but it's on the charger and I still might get another test trip in the books this afternoon yet. Plan on checking the front frame horn flex under hard cornering as well as pinion action under hard acceleration, braking and turning.

Overall though, I can not complain about any extra NVH from the Polygraphite Body Bushings. There may be just a touch more feeling from the smallest of bumps transferred through to the driver's seat, but nothing that a pound or two of pressure out of the tires wouldn't alleviate if it really concerned someone. Overall, I'd call the project a success.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/26/14 09:45 PM

Great to hear all is going well. It's a labor of love for sure!! I'm just happy to get something done in twice the time I think it's going to take,, and no more than double the money!!

I appreciate you taking the time for your build log, it's been a tremendous help to me,, and others I'm sure.

If you don't mind, I have a couple questions about your belt arrangement - these are pics from earlier in the post.

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Pretty good progress today...lots of little piddly jobs done or almost done.

Here's a picture of my new hard fuel line from the pump to the carb.


It doesn't touch anything but the fittings on each end and leaves plenty of room for the alternator.








With the air cleaner on...


I busted the sliding mount ear off the power steering bracket and have had trouble finding a stock replacement bracket. I was looking at the Alan Grove P/S bracket and saw their Sanden A/C mounting bracket. Did a search and found that you're running one.

I also see you're pulley system is pretty much what I envisioned running. I had been researching the MARCH catalog and glad I did. I was about to buy an earlier model P/S pump with the stud on the bottom to allow for more mounting bracket options along with the keyway pulley shaft,,, also to give more options for pulleys. What I didn't realize at first is the keyway pulley grooves are about .25" forward compared to the grooves of our press-fit p/s pulley. So if I want to run something like your have (stockish multi-belt system) it appears I'll need to go with the press-fit P/S pulley - I'm trying to find one with a bottom mounted stud and press on pulley,,, or may just buy an old style reservoir.

If you don't mind me asking,,, what is your pulley combination / arrangement? It looks like a stock crank pulley and maybe the March "replacement" P/S pulley for the SS (#522)? I'm also interested in knowing what water pump pulley that is,, (possibly March 6312 or 6322???) – I like how it cleaned up the “unused” belt grooves.

I was wondering before seeing your pictures if the belt would route to the AC right off the crank pulley,, good to see that it does,,, at least with the Sanden mount. Do you think it could still route like that with the stock AC and brackets?

Nearing the end of the interrogation!! Although I might cheap out a bit right at first and run the stock AC set up (I have two stock R4 compressors), do you still have the part number handy for that Sanden unit? There are some inexpensive ones on the market,, but I’d rather go with something that has been proven to work.

Only a couple more,,, lol. If you had to do it over, would you go with this arrangement again,,, or do something else?

I'm kinda wondering with the adjustments at the pump and at the AC unit,,, if I ran a dual drive serpentine pulley at the crank (like the March "retro kits - one for the passenger side and one for the driver's side),, if I could get a serpentine belt to engage enough to spin the P/S and A/C with that Alan Grove bracket set up. If so I could run the March dual serpentine crank pulley and their matching serpentine key-way P/S pulley.

Thanks as always, Kevin
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/27/14 03:13 AM

Kevin, I was mid post explaining my belt setup for you and ended up having to follow an ambulance to the ER for my Dad. He's gonna be alright but it may be a day or so before I get back to it.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/27/14 03:51 AM

Man,, I hope everything will be OK. Wish there was something I could do. Let us know how he's doing.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/27/14 12:25 PM

He's got a touch of pneumonia, complicated by COPD. They admitted him last night for a tune up on his lungs. Thanks for the kind thoughts.

I bought those March pulleys used from a friend several years ago, I'm going off memory here but to the best of my recollection it goes like this. The crank pulley was from the later model MCSS with the 5 groove Alt belt and the WP, Alt, and PS pulleys are underdrive units from March, not sure of the part #s. The AC belt is in the same location as it was with the Stock R4 Compressor I believe.

Regarding the underdrive pulleys, my cooling system is all stock configuration except for the electric fans, but all brand new and in great shape. I have never had an over heat problem, even with the underdrive WP pulley. The Alt is a C144 that has also always kept up with the demands as well. I run a stock style PS pump and while it has held up okay during all that I've put it through, it is leaking once again and needs to be replaced. I've been trying to decide which way to go with it considering my current activities with the car...still haven't decided though.

I bought that Sanden style compressor from NostialgicAirParts.com It's been good, no complaints...would do this upgrade again in a heartbeat along with the Alan Grove Brackets.

I'm not familiar with the dual serpentine belt setup from March, but it's worth investigating. I'm not sure how well the belt would engage the PS pump though as it wouldn't go but just on one side of the pulley...that might be an issue. I like the idea of getting rid of the V belt pulleys though (even though I've never had a problem with mine). I'll have to watch and see what you come up with there. What has to be done to change to a 5 groove pulley on the AC compressor, is that a big deal with the clutch and all?

Hope that helps a little anyway, keep us posted what you decide to do...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/27/14 12:26 PM

Was able to grab a bit of video today...check this out.

http://youtu.be/YvWLoyNaWMc

Kind of a big improvement don't you think?
Posted By: massaero

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/27/14 01:25 PM

Awesome, I would also like to add the under side of your car looks better than 99% of the cars new and old here in the north east.
Out daughter had her car serviced recently out in california and she said the mechanic asked her if her car had ever sunk in the ocean? The rust it has is just par for the course here in mass.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/27/14 09:03 PM

Well thanks... It used to look even better but now has a fine coat of power steering fluid and brake dust all over everything, which doesn't really show up in the pics but does show up on my hands every time I touch something underneath the car. But hey, at least it keeps it from rusting right? laugh
Posted By: BadSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/28/14 01:29 AM

Lance, I hope your dad feels better soon.

Thanks for the run down, I'm pretty sure if you're not having a belt alignment problem with the P/S pump the P/S pulley is the press-fit 522 from March - it's the only one I can find,, other than stock that will work with the belt alignment on the stock or stock replacement/under-drive crank pulley. All the other two groove pulleys have the grooves about .25" forward,, which would definitely cause a problem.

The pulley for the AC is not hard to swap, but does require a special tool - I have a buddy that's a mechanic,,, so what's not a problem for me. Some auto parts store local to you might have a loaner you could use - only takes a few minutes. Here's a video link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URqFd3KkSRY

I'm still debating on the pulley arrangement. Going with a set up like yours with an Alan Grove A/C and P/S bracket (need a pump with a bottom stud - new press fit black Tuff Stuff 6182b - $135 or March P349 - $112),, I'm looking right at $400 not including the P/S pump. Going this route I could cheap out a bit, only spend around $300 and use the stock R4 compressor and brackets,, then have the option to replace the R4 with a Sanden unit when if needed later for $100 (bracket). I really didn't want to have to unbolt the R4 compressor to adjust the valves,,, but I did it for years.

However,,, I really like this "mid mount" set up,,, putting the air conditioner on the passenger side - would make for a really clean set up. The complete bracket and pulley kit is $730,, but the cool thing about it is you can get the Alt and AC bracket for $300 (March 20188),, and run the stock or replacement SS crank and water pump pulley,,, and use a dual v-belt arrangement for the P/S.


My "problem" is that with me starting from scratch so to speak,, if I spend $300 now and $300 later,, I might as well drop the $730 now and have a nice shiny and matching P/S bracket, water pump pulley "cover", AC pulley cover (about $100 of "extras") and be done with it.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/28/14 01:39 AM

Hmmm mmmm... I like that setup, that is sweet. That opens up your PS pump options too doesn't it?

Dad is doing better, another day or so admitted I'm sure. Pneumonia and COPD, not a good mix.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 06:41 PM


Since I'm going to run street tires full time this summer, I had to find a way to get my billet wheels looking nice again and more importantly keep them looking that way.

First up, cleaning them up and polishing them. Brake N Parts cleaner on a rag was used to clean the back sides of them up of grease, gear oil and brake fluid then Mother's billet polish was used on the fronts. I've found the best way to do this job is to get a nitrile glove, dip a finger in the polish and work the polish onto the rim with the glove. This lets you control the amount of polish (little goes a LONG way) and also makes it easier to work the polish into all of the nooks and crannies.



I then take a Mother's Polish cone on an electric drill and work the polish back off the rim. This works pretty good to get the majority of the spots and blemishes off on the first go around. Usually still have some spots left though and I take my glove and work polish back into the areas missed. This makes it a bit easier to watch the spots work out as you work the polish in. I finish it off with a microfiber towel polishing all of the nooks and crannies.

Here's one of the rear rims polished out...



And here is one of the new rims to compare it too...



I realized that my cell phone takes terrible pictures of shiny billet aluminum...but it was snowing too damn hard to go back into the house to get the good camera so this is all we have for now.

I even did the back sides of all of the rims too...

Mother's billet polish applied



and taken back off...



The next step is a sealant to help keep them nice looking under daily driving duties and after races. I've ordered some of this stuff up and will be applying it to all 6 rims later this week.

http://www.shineseal.com/products.htm



It used to be called Zoop Seal but they have reformulated it and now call it Shine seal. It works a bit like Sharkhide, another aluminum sealant that I have used to seal the pontoons on my boat. It seals the porous aluminum surfaces and puts a protective coating on it to keep the aluminum from oxidizing, makes brake dust just blow off and resists water spots making clean up super easy.

There is a cleaner, sealer, slick finish and bright shine metal polish in the kit. They say the sealer goes on kind of like rain-X. Bit like a solvent applied best with a new cloth diaper, let it haze up...then buff it off with a microfiber towel. Once the metal polish is used, the aluminum is supposed to shine as good as if not better than freshly polished billet with no sealant on it. We'll see...

I can't drive it regularly with them the way they were though...this I know. Hopefully this relieves some of the hassle involved with daily driving billet rims. If this doesn't work...they are getting plasti-dipped...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 06:43 PM

That all happened Tuesday during the snow day...

Then I got the ShineSeal kit in, I ordered the Master Kit which is says is good for 80 sq ft. Here it is along with the diapers I'll use for applying the sealer and the microfiber towels for polishing.





The bottle on the left is their Bio Cleaner which I mixed 1 oz with 16 oz of water in the spray bottle. This is used to clean the metal surface of any contaminants before the sealer is applied.

The Metal Sealer is the bottle second from the left, this acts and works very much like Sharkhide. It's the sealer that gets rock hard and protects the aluminum from anything penetrating it. The third bottle from the left is the Slick Finish, this may be what separates this kit from the other aluminum finishes on the market. It goes on like a wax but you don't let it dry on the surface you just keep polishing on it until it is all taken back off of the metal. It's the cat's meow... The 4th bottle from the left is a Brite Shine Metal polish that you use should you ever need to clean the Metal Sealer back off of the aluminum. I guess if you ever wanted to polish a shine back onto the surface you'd clean the sealer off with this, then polish, then reapply.

I cleaned the outsides and the insides of all 6 wheels with the Bio Cleaner and a microfiber towel. This wasn't a big deal in my case because I had just polished all of these wheels with Mother's Billet polish so they were already what I'd call very clean but the directions said to so I did.

I then used a diaper to apply the sealer to the outsides of all 6 wheels. It goes on kind of like Rain-X, is very solvent smelling, and is tacky and kind of hard to tell if you are getting an even coat on, especially in all of the nooks and crannies most wheels have. I'd much recommend anyone that is doing this project to have the wheels off of the car laying flat and everything that can be taken out of the way (center caps etc) off the wheels as well. Once I was fairly sure that all of the outside surfaces had a good coat on them, I flipped the wheels over and coated the hoops on the inside. I didn't spend the time or materials to do the back sides of the spokes as they'll never be seen. Then it had to dry and set up. I ended up letting them set for about 24 hours. You can tell if it's not set up by running your finger on the surface, if it smears...it still needs more time.

After BioClean, before Sealer



Same wheel after Sealer applied but not dry yet.




Brand new wheel before Sealer



Same wheel after sealer



All 6 caps...can you tell which two are brand new?





This morning I went out to see if the sealer was dry, and it was...so I set about applying the Slick Finish. Before the Slick finish, the surfaces were kind of tacky...well not tacky but your finger still stuck to it just a bit as you drug it across. The Slick Finish goes on pretty easy and you just apply it and polish it back off working in small areas as you go along. It turns that somewhat sticky surface into a smooth as glass almost Chrome like finish. It is unbelievable... It also lets you polish smooth the top layer of the sealer if there were any areas where you got the sealer a bit too thick. Those areas showed up after the first coat of slick finish is applied and polished out and you just go back over them with a bit more Slick Finish and a clean microfiber and it polishes the surface out super smooth. This is the step that really finishes off this process nice and I believe it HAS to make the surfaces of the wheels MUCH easier to maintain nice looking. The highly polished areas of the wheels feel just like a chrome surface now.

After I was certain the outsides of all of the wheels were as polished as I could get them I flipped them over and applied the slick finish to the insides of the hoops as well. Probably over kill and unnecessary but remember my goal is to get these wheels as maintenance free as I could get them and that includes keeping the insides of the hoops as nice looking as they can be kept as well.

Here is a close up of a used wheel done...Sorry, it's taken with my phone but again, it'll have to do for now.



The camera makes it looks more scratched than it is...to the eye they look pretty dern good.

Here is a new wheel all done...



As you can see it looks great. I wouldn't hesitate to put this treatment on any brand new aluminum wheel...in fact, I'd recommend that you do apply it to your new wheels as soon as you can. The product does nothing to the shine of a billet wheel except protect it and keep it great looking much easier.

I did the insides and outsides of (2) 17x8s and (4) 17x9.5s and this is what I've got left of the kit.



Plenty of Bio Cleaner left over which they say you can also use to clean the wheels with now to maintain them, probably enough Metal Sealer to do the outsides of the wheels one more time, the Slick finish it's hard to see but there is still lots of it left also, I barely used any out of the bottle and never even opened the Brite Shine Metal polish.

And here's the instructions that came with the kit.



Later on after I've driven with the wheels and got them dirty a few times I'll revisit and update with how they have held up. I think it's gonna be good though, it HAS to be better than maintaining just the bare billet aluminum.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 07:02 PM

Looks good Lance, I would say caps 4 and 6 are new.

That's a tuff nut to crack keeping those shinny new without heavy labor. dunno
Posted By: jdpolzin

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Pretty much ever since I have had this Quick Performance 9" rear axle, I have fought the passenger side axle seal (or the lack thereof) leaking rear end gear oil. QP uses a Moser Billet Torino style (big Ford) axle end and Moser axles with sealed bearings pressed on them. Their thought is the sealed bearing will stop the gear oil from leaking...it doesn't.

I finally learned that there is a step down inside the end that a National part #473229 seal fits into so I picked a couple of them up last week. Here is what the axle end looks like.



and here is what it looks like with the seal pressed into place.



ID of the seal is 1.5" which matches the axle. Sure hope it works...

I cleaned a LOT of leaked gear oil up today. And I just LOVE the smell of gear oil.

Also put a new E-brake cable on the passenger side and test drove the car.



Everything feels pretty good but it was hard to make a comparison with those old stock size tires on the car, need to get my new rims cleaned up and sealed and some new rubber on them then really take it for a shake down run.


One word of advice, never listen to anything Quick's tells you. They have good intentions but attention to detail outside of the dirt track world is minimal. How did your shock mounts work? I sold my Quick Housing because the lower brackets were flat and not angled out for the shocks to not bind at lateral movement. The shocks didn't actually bind but the potential was there. My rear shocks don't use a rubber bushing. I also had no ability to use my Currie Correctrac lower control arms cause the shock studs hit them. Quicks said I need to use a rubber bushing shock in order to correct that bad angle and to cut the stud down and use a thin nut. I said, no thanks, rear was sold.
Posted By: jdpolzin

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 07:07 PM

FWIW, I also have a leaky passenger side bearing with my Currie housing. Not sure if there was a manufacturer defect but the bearing housing was a little tight and the bearing didn't seat all the way. I had to cut the race out of the housing and replace it. I used silicon on the outer race on both sides. This time around I haven't seen a leak on the passenger side yet but then again the car is just sitting in the garage.
Posted By: jdpolzin

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 07:08 PM

Id also like to see how you hooked your Ebrake cable up? What brakes are you running?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 07:40 PM

Originally Posted By: jdpolzin
How did your shock mounts work? I sold my Quick Housing because the lower brackets were flat and not angled out for the shocks to not bind at lateral movement. The shocks didn't actually bind but the potential was there. My rear shocks don't use a rubber bushing. I also had no ability to use my Currie Correctrac lower control arms cause the shock studs hit them. Quicks said I need to use a rubber bushing shock in order to correct that bad angle and to cut the stud down and use a thin nut. I said, no thanks, rear was sold.


I used wedge washers on both sides and rubber shock bushings to offset the incorrect angle of the shock mount. It worked okay... I built a custom drop shock mount when I converted to coilovers which alleviated that problem.

I use the Ford Explorer rear disc brake kit with Lokar e-brake cables that connect to the internal e-brake with clevis's.

If you go to page one of this thread, a couple of posts down there is a link to my 9" install thread which details how the brakes hooked up I believe.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/14 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: jdpolzin
FWIW, I also have a leaky passenger side bearing with my Currie housing. Not sure if there was a manufacturer defect but the bearing housing was a little tight and the bearing didn't seat all the way. I had to cut the race out of the housing and replace it. I used silicon on the outer race on both sides. This time around I haven't seen a leak on the passenger side yet but then again the car is just sitting in the garage.


Is there a seal in your Currie housing end?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/14 08:36 PM

With Ron Sutton's help, we picked out some brake upgrade parts for Barney and I got them installed this weekend.

We decided to upgrade the front calipers to the larger metric calipers with the 2.75" piston and use some EBC YellowstuffR pads. This should increase my front brake force from 1804 pounds with the R4 pads and stock calipers to 1973 pounds with EBC pads which will hopefully be a bit more street friendly while at the same time work well for autocross. If I want more braking or if the fronts tend to lock up significantly faster than the rears I can upgrade the rear pads down the road.

Best part was, this was all bolt in parts, no modifications or geometry adjustments needed after the upgrade.

Here's the stock D154 caliper with a 2.5" piston





And here's the new Afco Large Metric caliper with a 2.75" piston



They aren't sexy looking, but were bolt ins that didn't require any other modifications and provide a significant increase in braking force.



Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/14 08:49 PM

What made you choose those afco calipers over the speedway motors ones?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Big-Bore-GM-Metric-1978-88-Brake-Caliper,25158.html
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/14 10:36 PM

I let Ron choose them...and that's what he choose. The man has bought a lot of race calipers over the years and I figured I couldn't go wrong with his choice.

Not saying there is anything wrong with the Speedway calipers though. I'd be curious about the pads though... Hell I paid almost as much for the pads as I did for my calipers.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/14 12:12 AM

I was thinking of getting the speedway calipers, but I don't know what pads I would run. I'm sure the pads that come with them are just cheap stock replacements.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/14 01:32 AM

I'm sure they are fine, I say go for it.

I'll know pretty soon what I think about these EBC pads. I think I'm gonna like how they stop, just curious how much they dust up the wheels.
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/14 02:21 AM

I used those same calipers Lance,although I used Hawk HPS pads.It sure made a noticeable difference over the stock calipers and pads.
Jason,I remember reading on one of the other G body forums,although I dont remember which one,that the Speedway calipers werent quite as good quality as the Afco/USBrakes ones.IIRC,one of them had broken on whoever had posted about them.
Guy
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/21/14 08:28 PM

So Lance is pretty stoked today...My new tires came in!!! laugh

Old track tire on the right, new track (and everyday) tire on the left



Overall dimensions are just about exactly the same, the Falken has a half inch extra tread width though (hope they fit).





I'm betting...that these street tires give me just about as much grip and stability as the used Hoosiers did last season. Plus, they look a TON better and I can drive them to and from the racetrack.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/21/14 10:42 PM

Are those 275's on 9.5" for the front? Tires look sweet!!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/21/14 11:05 PM

Yessir...yes they are!!

17x9.5s all the way around with 275/40/17 Falken 615ks

I also still have a pair of matching 17x8s with pretty new 245/40/17s BFG Rivals for the front for daily use if I desire a more streetable look.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/14 01:04 AM

Same offset as the rears?
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/14 03:00 AM

woot nice choice
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/14 03:54 AM

Wohoo! Nice shoes Lance!
Post some pics on the car when you get a chance!
hail hail
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/14 12:04 PM

Teaser cell phone pic




I spent most of the evening last night putting my new PS pump in and plumbing my PS fluid cooler in place. Just bolted the tires on for a look see and grabbed a couple quick pics with the phone.

All four wheels and tires are exactly the same which will let me rotate them as needed for even wear.





I was hurrying to get it done and this is the best pic I got of the cooler mounted. This picture was taken looking through the grill at the condenser.



I was able to hang it from the bolt holding the center brace in place in front of the condenser. It's angled down but the lines to it come out right by the AC condenser lines so I didn't have to drill or cut any holes in my air box for them. Worked out pretty slick if you ask me and should have maximum airflow over the cooler. All I have left to do is flush the old fluid out of the box, fill and road test.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/14 07:02 PM

Put about 50 miles on her today, got the brake pads bedded in and shook everything down. Man...this car rides and drives NICE now...that's all I have to say about it. smile













Very happy with the fit, finish and form factor of the wheel tire combination. No rubs anywhere and it just flat sticks in high speed spirited corners.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/14 11:37 PM

Looks great! No rubbing while driving? How are the new brakes?
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 12:20 AM

looks great Lance.
Posted By: 93lt1s10

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 12:44 AM

Looks good man, if I kept my old polished wheels from my truck, I would have invested in that stuff. I am currently looking to not go with polished wheels because of all that labor lol.

As for the wheels, how much space do you have from the frame to the wheel and wheel to fender lip? And what BS are they?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 02:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
Looks great! No rubbing while driving? How are the new brakes?


I didn't hit the big dip at speed that I usually use as a test but I've hit it before with my old Nitto 275s on the front and they didn't hit then. I pulled into a driveway while turning around with the wheels turned to lock...and no rub either.

The new brakes are good, better than what was on there...but they still need to be bled more. I always have trouble getting the fronts totally bled with my mighty vac...need to get back out there with a pedal pusher to get them really good.

On the way home I did about (5) 60-20 mph hard braking sessions to bed the pads in and when they got hot, they really gripped and slowed the car down.

Funny story about that, I pulled into the garage right after and got out and felt how hot the brakes were, I got them pretty toasty. As I walked around to the passenger rear, there was smoke rolling out of the wheel. That was the wheel that had the axle seal leak and the gear oil had soaked the brake pads on that side. I clean them off real good before reinstalling but I guess the heat I put into the pads right before coming home was baking the oil that was left in the pad out...

I got paranoid about parking it with the brakes that hot so I pulled back out of the garage and drove it around a bit more without using the brakes to cool them down.

The good news is...still no evidence of gear oil leaking out the seal.
Posted By: JAWSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 05:16 AM

Looks great Lance. I am sure it feels great with all of your changes and upgrades coming together right on time.

J
Posted By: SKIDMARK

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 12:26 PM

When is your 1st race this year.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 01:17 PM

April 5th Test n tune, April 6th Event 1.

The list of things I still need to do to get ready is really starting to get short now.

Flush brake fluid and bleed brakes
Four corner weigh and adjust wedge
final alignment on digital rack
Lube Oil Filter change

Everything else on my list is cosmetic and not really necessary to compete

install new temp\comp mirror
fill shock reservoir holes in trunk
machine polish and wax
touch up paint under the hood
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 02:34 PM

Looks real good Lance !!!
I bet its a "Vette killer in the corners...
Guy
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I got paranoid about parking it with the brakes that hot so I pulled back out of the garage and drove it around a bit more without using the brakes to cool them down.


True car guy logic at work LOL "hmmm, better just drive the car more" laugh
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 04:49 PM

The stance and the wheel and tire combination looks amazing on the car Lance. Its good to see that all of your efforts are starting to pay off. Keep up the good work.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 07:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS
Originally Posted By: SSLance
I got paranoid about parking it with the brakes that hot so I pulled back out of the garage and drove it around a bit more without using the brakes to cool them down.


True car guy logic at work LOL "hmmm, better just drive the car more" laugh



The racers all tell you when coming off a road course run to take a whole lap just cruising without touching the brakes at all so you cool them down right. If you bring them right in hot and park the car, the calipers and pads hold more heat than the rest of the rotor and will warp the rotors as they cool down at different speeds. I did NOT want to warp my brand new rotors by doing what I did.

That said, it never hurts to just roll the car back out for another spin though. laugh

Brake fluid flushed, brakes bled properly, all is good.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 08:58 PM

Is there a pretty noticeable difference with the bigger calipers then?

Off topic, But I read in an old post of yours you had hagerty on your car for insurance? do you still?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/14 09:31 PM

The brakes aren't totally broke in yet, they say it takes about 200 miles for the break in coating to wear off the pads and them to really start working. I expect that I'll make that happen faster than that though. wink

Even then...there is still a noticeable improvement already over the stock calipers and Porterfield R4 pads when they were cold. Keep in mind that I also have a TON more gription between the rims and the road as well now.

Let me get a few more miles on her and some more spirited driving (enough to get these pads really hot) then I'll really give the low down. At this point though, I'm happy with the larger calipers. For the ease of installation and beneficial cost vs the gains made, I like 'em.
Posted By: Malibu Monte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/14 05:36 PM

Looking really good Lance. This car has changed so much over the years.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/27/14 06:43 PM

Thanks, I still remember the day we met at KCIR... Trying to launch on stock size tires with no rear sway bar... banghead

You are right, it has come a long way since then. You should come up and watch us race sometime this summer, might sway you away from the 1/4 mile at a time stuff. wink
Posted By: MecGen

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/28/14 03:26 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
  I clean them off real good before reinstalling but I guess the heat I put into the pads right before coming home was baking the oil that was left in the pad out.


Hi Lance
Just thought I would mention that when pads or shoes get soaked with gear oil they should be replaced, no matter how well cleaned - the oil penetrates into the pad matteral and after a while causes the pad to crack and come apart. Of cource this sugestion is for regular over the counter parts for stock cars and also depending on much oil was absorbed, so I don't know this translates to you car, but might be something to look into. Friendly heads up.
Nice car
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/28/14 04:29 PM

Oh I know... I'll keep an eye on them. I'm waiting to see how the brake distribution is before deciding on which pads to use to replace them in the rear.

Right now it seems pretty even but I need to get the fronts bedded in and broke in better before I decide for certain.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/10/14 03:23 PM

I finally fixed an ever present exhaust leak on Barney. The shop that put my X-pipe in last year used narrow cheap clamps on the slip connections and I've fought with them leaking ever since.



I finally bought some of the proper clamps to use and put them on Saturday.

No more than about 20 minutes of work total and less than $40 in parts...you'd think I would have done this sooner... shocked



Waalaa... No more leaky...

BTW, Dynatech and Magnaflow clamps like this cost like $27.99 each at Summit racing...but Summit has their house brand clamps that are identical in every way...for $7.97 each. They worked perfectly.

Spent the rest of the day on Sunday pressure washing the lawnmower real good, then pressure washed out the floor of the shop...and put the lawnmower on the lift getting it ready for it's spring tune up, oil change and blade sharpening. The wife has been asking when there is going to be time for me to work on one of her projects...figured it was as good of a time as any to start. LOVE this weather...
Posted By: Joe87monteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/14/14 12:51 PM

Car looks really good Lance.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/17/14 04:58 PM

Back in Oct 2012 was the last time I did a four corner weigh on my car

3/4s tank of fuel, no driver



Last Thursday I had the car back at the alignment shop so I had it weighed again as well.

3/4s tank of fuel, no driver

3511 lb empty... vs 3626 lbs before

LF 1056
RF 1022
LR 709
RR 724

Front weight Bias 59.18%
Left Side Bias 50.27%
Cross Weight Bias 49.30%
Left Side plus Cross Weight 99.57%

Somehow the T56 vs the 200R4 swap and the coils springs vs stock springs netted me a loss of 115 pounds!! And more importantly the cross weight and left side bias %s add up to real close to 100% so I didn't mess anymore with the corner weights.

It could be better as the ride height is a half inch lower on the left side with the driver in the car. To be optimum I need to raise the left side front and rear enough so that the car would be level with just me in the driver's seat. Then I could fine tune the corner weights a bit, then redo the alignment one more time to maximize the complete setup.

Here are the current weights with the driver in the car

Total weight 3678 (left side ride height .5" lower than right side front and back)
LF 1137
RF 1039
LR 748
RR 754

Front weight Bias 59.16%
Left Side Bias 51.25%
Cross Weight Bias 48.58%
Left Side plus Cross Weight 99.83%



What I'm struggling with is a LOT of the time I'm autocrossing, I have a passenger in the car with me. So do I set the car up to be at it's best when I'm solo, or have a ride along?

I figured I'd leave it as is for now, check it out at a test n tune and a few events,, then if it acts too much differently on left handers vs right handers, I'll raise the left side a tad and redo all of the weights and alignment settings one more time. I'm getting pretty good at it by now.

Anyway, wanted to update everyone on the weight changes of the car after all of the changes made.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/18/14 01:54 PM

Had to fill the Monte back up on the way home last night. 271.8 every day driving miles, quite a bit of it highway use but lots of around town stop n going as well as some spirited driving mixed in. Would be what an average tank of daily driving would be for me every week, week in and week out.

15.3 gallons... clap Works out to 17.76 mpg.

My truck gets about 10 mpg in comparison...

I am so happy with this result in the car, I never imagined it would get this good of fuel mileage while retaining the funability in it's driving style. Pleasant surprise for sure.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/20/14 05:09 AM

Qjet, lots of torque, and a 6 spd, equals economical fun.

When I did the 200R to T56 swap 12 years ago I weighed all the parts coming out, new parts going in, and found it was a pretty even weight exchange. When the new engine went in a Lakewood scattershield was installed along with a slightly heavier flywheel, the weight gain was about 40 lb.

Four corner weights when I weighed the car in 2011, driver (175) full tank of gas, 3798 lb:
LF 1153
RF 1077
LR 782
RR 786
Front weight bias 58.75%
Left side bias 51.0%
Cross weight bias 47.92%
Left side plus cross weight 98.92%

The reasons my car is so fat up front, scattershield +40, Dart block +20, 4 core copper/brass rad +15, B spindles/added braces/factory A/C comp. This amounts to a 54lb difference up front compared to your lighter car.

Out back you're 66lb lighter. I run the space saver tire/jack, an 8 1/2" rear with alum drums, NOTHING in the trunk except a clean blanket, some added bracing, an alum driveshaft, full tank of gas, just a pair of speakers. Not sure how there can be that much difference with you running a 9" and disc brakes.

Your front corner weights I think should be set closer to equal, now are a 98lb difference, I'm at 76, always wanted that number to be lower. That difficult because when you figure the steering box/column, A/C comp, clutch linkage, and the driver is on the left side with not more than the battery, alt, and A/C suitcase to offset that weight on the right side.

I believe when you start to change the front corner weights it can effect the rear corner weights, effecting the handling. With you having coilovers on all four corner I wouldn't hessitate to play with corner weights, it for no other reason than S&G.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/20/14 12:08 PM

I finally took my spare tire out the day I weighed the car, first time I've ever even unbolted it. It was flat btw...

Don't think it weighed anywhere near 66 pounds though. I'll weigh it and the jack today.

Playing with the corner weights is great, if you have time and the scales on hand to go back to after changes. I wish I could find a set of scales to borrow to use in my garage for a day or so...this has been tough to find though.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/20/14 01:23 PM

Spare tire, jack and mounting hardware = 49.8 pounds.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/21/14 02:22 AM

The lousy part of this chassis tuning stuff is the G starts out with such lousy F/R weight bias, 59% is very poor. I'd have to remove 400lb + off the front and add 200 to the rear to get close to 50/50. That's just not doable.

Was at my shop tonight to pickup a few things, did a ride height check as it sat for the past two weeks, no driver.
RF 26 1/2"
LF 26 1/2"
RR 27"
LR 27 1/2"
I've checked ride height 50 times on this car, it's always been higher in the RR, new body bushings didn't even change the RR height variance.

I've been told I can borrow a set of four corner scales anytime I want them. State inspection is due in July, will put the car on the alignment rack again at that time to play with the numbers and check bump in rebound. Will also 4 corner scale it again. Here's a PIC from my last visit to the rack.
http://ads.pottsmerc.com/pottstown-pa/co...on-the-ultimate
My car looks pretty good from 50'.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/30/14 05:41 PM

For anyone interested in 4 corner scaling their car Lance and Ron Sutton have a great discussion going on ProTouring.com

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/98063-Need-a-little-help-figuring-something-out/page15

About 2/3 of the way down page 15 Ron tells how to properly set up the scales to get accurate 4 corner numbers. Unless you have a dead level floor to work from Ron's info will help. Good reading!
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/14 02:59 PM

Racing in the rain
A recap of what I learned both in car setup and driving style for racing on a damp or completely soaked, standing water race track this weekend past.

For those that don’t normally autocross with the SCCA, a typical race event give you just 4 (or sometimes 5) chances to score your fastest time on a course that you have never driven on before. You run in heats and when it is time for your heat group to run, you head out to the start in order of how you are in grid and in our case anyway, there is typically about 10 minutes of downtime back in grid before it’s time for you to head out to your next run. What this basically means is you better have your car ready to go before your first run and any adjustments that you make to the car need to be done quickly in between runs. And lastly, you only get a handful of chances to get both the car…and usually more importantly the driver…ready for your runs.

This was my first time are really trying to be competitive on what looked like was going to be a wet racetrack. I talked with Ron Sutton a couple of times beforehand about what to expect and possibly what changes to make to the shocks to compensate for the wet track. Our game plan was this…for a damp but not fully soaked or actually rain falling track, adjust all of the valves on all of the shocks half way between my race setup and fully soft. If it was actually raining and track was covered with standing water, go full soft on everything.

The suspension on my car is designed to let the car pitch and roll to a predetermined spot where the tire contact patch and weight distribution is optimized for the element the car is going into. We spent a LOT of time getting the shocks and spring rates (along with the rest of the suspension geometry) set and adjusted to maximize this, which on a dry course is firmly planting all four tires on every element we hit and it works real REAL well.

The thought process was that on the wet track, there would be less overall grip therefore the shocks would need to be softer to allow the car to still pitch and roll fully to the predetermined spot.

I was set to run in heat 2 Sunday. We had rain off and on all morning long while getting ready, then the sky parted and the wind picked up and started drying off the track for heat 1 drivers. They all got 3-4 runs on a slightly damp to almost completely dry track before it started sprinkling again…their 5th runs were on a mostly wet track. Then it stopped raining again. There was a delay switching over to heat 2 drivers and frankly we were all stalling as long as we could hoping the wind would keep drying the track off for us. When we headed out for our first runs, the track was damp, but it had not rained in a while. Not knowing what to expect, I put my typical race setup on all 4 shocks and made a run. I was surprised at the grip available…the tires stuck pretty well and I felt I left a lot of time on the table. I was happy. Then…while in grid…it started sprinkling again. When the windshield was completely wet, I jumped out and adjusted the shocks to halfway between my race setup and full soft and made my first run in the rain.

Front
Low speed rebound -8/-14 (this means I took 8 clicks out to go from -6 to -14 clicks from full stiff)
Low speed compression -4/-19
High speed compression -6/-21

Rear
Low speed rebound -10/-14
Low speed compression -4/-19
High speed compression -24

The car felt horrible to put it bluntly, by the second element I knew I was in trouble but wasn’t sure exactly how bad yet…then I divebombed into the lefthander before the slalom and just slid the front tires under braking to almost the grass before I got it turned into the slalom. It had NEVER done anything like this before. Then into the slalom on the second cone the car rolled so much that it hit the bumpstops pretty hard and disrupted the car again. At this point I had to back off and just try to keep the car on the track for the rest of the run. Hindsight…I went way too far softening the shocks up which let the suspension travel right past the predetermined optimized spots. There was just still more grip there than we thought there might be. I guess you don’t know until you try. These Ridetech shocks have SO much adjustability in them that I have to learn to take smaller swings at changes on them. Changing a valve 8 or 10 clicks is a dramatic change to them, not to be taken lightly.

On a side note here, last year there was a lot of concern when some driver’s shock’s settings were messed with during an event and the drivers were very upset with the danger the perpetrator put the drivers in. I didn't really grasp at the time just how dangerous this was…I now fully do. When you head into an element at full speed expecting your car to do the same thing that it always has…and it doesn’t…it is VERY dangerous and I have a new perspective on this now.

Back in grid, fully disgusted with everything, the rain, the car, the day…I decided to put the shocks back to my race setup which I knew felt pretty decent on my first run in the damp. Then it began to really rain. It got increasing worse on my next 3 runs, but I got better. I was figuring out how to drive the car in the rain and it was doing pretty good. I didn't adjust on the shocks anymore because frankly, I didn't want to get out of the car and get soaked. I knew a class win was unreachable at this point as Patrick had already put a great time down in the dry in heat 1 so it was all just about fun driving in the rain and learning.

On my 5th run, Jeff who was gridded next to me got in for a ride and we put down a lap almost 2 seconds faster than any of my previous wet laps. This leads me to another observation.

Remember the predetermined spots that we have the suspension set up to hit on elements? Well, my current ride height has the car sitting level with nobody in it. When I get in the driver seat the driver’s side goes down a ˝ inch front and rear. This changes all of the travel and predetermined spots to hit. Ultimately the car should sit level with me in the passenger seat and all geometry settings set off of that initial ride height. By the time I figured this out, I didn’t have the time to reset everything and I typically have a rider with me on a lot of runs anyway…so I left it be.

Having run two full weekends now with a lot of time in the car on this setup, I will say that my fastest times on every course have come with a passenger in the car with me…usually almost a full second faster than my best runs in the car by myself. This is because the weight in the passenger seat sets the car level at ride height and it hits all of the predetermined spots correctly on each element on the course. When an already big fat heavy car can go even faster with an additional 150-200 pounds in the passenger seat, it drives home the fact of just how important getting the geometry correct is to making a car run faster times. I’ll be correcting this in the future but in the meantime I don’t seem to have trouble finding willing passengers to add ballast as everyone that rides in the car is grinning or flat out laughing by the end of our runs.

Loving the car, loving the setup and can’t wait until May 4th for our next event to race it again.

Here is the video of Sunday’s runs…

http://youtu.be/5pufvi6FZuo
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/15/14 03:19 AM

About two years ago my son ran an autocross in Schuylkill Haven, Pa, I was his tire transporter and pit crew.

Got the chance to do a ride along in an autocross prepped, Hoosier tire Grand Sport Vette. If you have ever rode the Wild mouse at the amusement park you can get an idea of what that was like.
Bob
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/18/14 02:17 PM

Hi Lance. Thanks for posting the video-very nice driving. Not sure I'd like to push a car that hard in the rain. Is that a cupholder with a cup in it behind your shifter? I can see something rolling around there in the video. You have the newer GTO seats in your car, don't you? I noticed in the video that the upper part of your body moves around as you're driving. Is there any interference between your shoulders and the bolsters on the upper part of the seatback? Just curious.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/18/14 02:27 PM

I wasn't so sure about pushing the car that hard in the rain either, but the harder I pushed, the more it kept gripping so I kept on going. Was really surprised at how much grip the Falkens had in the rain.

I do have a cup holder in my console behind the shifter. I typically keep it empty during runs but that day I had a soft side koozie in it and my tire pressure gauge inside the koozie. Everything else up front is put away, I even take the cigarette lighter out as I've had it fly loose before on a run. The driver side floor mat is on top of the passenger side one to keep it out of the pedals. It's a pretty violent ride on a dry run for sure.

The GTO seats are pretty damn nice seats, they work very well at holding the driver in place. Obviously as you can see, I still get bounced around a bit during a run though. I don't notice any interference during a run...but I'm a little busy. wink Preferably I'd have some sort of a harness to help hold my upper body in place, this would give me a more solid foundation to control the steering wheel from.
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/18/14 03:52 PM

Thanks very much for the reply Lance. I can see what you're saying about having a better harness in the car.
Posted By: Joe87monteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/19/14 12:24 PM

Lance, how tall are you? I'm 6'2.5" and find it uncomfortable pushing in the clutch pedal. I can just use my foot by only pivoting my ankle. If you can picture that. Anyway, my plans are for GTO seats. Do you find that you have a little more room as compared to stock seats? I wonder if I should mount them more rearward for a little extra comfort room..

Hope this makes sense..
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/19/14 12:41 PM

Looks like crazy fun. I need a ride. Cutting time off in wet conditions is amazing. Are there any good vids for that day from the OUTSIDE of the car to see what it is doing ??????
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/19/14 12:56 PM

Watched some more vids. I think FI would help you pick up some crispness and maybe 25 or 30 HP in the midrange. If you could come out of the straights a little harder you may save a few tenths. Too much more and you would completely blow the rears off in transitions. Of course you have to fix that loose nut behind the wheel first!!!

I think this is awesome.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/20/14 03:16 AM

Originally Posted By: Joe87monteSS
Lance, how tall are you? I'm 6'2.5" and find it uncomfortable pushing in the clutch pedal. I can just use my foot by only pivoting my ankle. If you can picture that. Anyway, my plans are for GTO seats. Do you find that you have a little more room as compared to stock seats? I wonder if I should mount them more rearward for a little extra comfort room..

Hope this makes sense..


I'm 6'0" about 180 but I'm more long in the torso less in the legs if that makes since. I have to lay the seat back a bit to keep my helmet off the headliner. The thing that is nice about the GTO seats is the 8 way power adjustment. I typically tilt the front of the seat bottom up, back of the seat bottom down and the seat back back a bit and it fits me pretty good. I actually move the whole seat forward when autocrossing to keep my feet closer to the pedals and there is still plenty of room for me. I can roll the seat far enough back that I can't reach to push the clutch pedal all the way in. These seats really have a wide range of motion.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/20/14 03:17 AM

Originally Posted By: 345HP87SSAC
Looks like crazy fun. I need a ride. Cutting time off in wet conditions is amazing. Are there any good vids for that day from the OUTSIDE of the car to see what it is doing ??????


I didn't run my camera outside that day, but a few other guys did. None down low though that I'm aware of.

May 4th is our next event, come on down, I'll take you for a ride.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/20/14 03:31 AM

I was gridded next to Jeff and was one car behind him on these five runs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6FV9Qbi-po
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/12/14 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Pretty much ever since I have had this Quick Performance 9" rear axle, I have fought the passenger side axle seal (or the lack thereof) leaking rear end gear oil. QP uses a Moser Billet Torino style (big Ford) axle end and Moser axles with sealed bearings pressed on them. Their thought is the sealed bearing will stop the gear oil from leaking...it doesn't.

I finally learned that there is a step down inside the end that a National part #473229 seal fits into so I picked a couple of them up last week. Here is what the axle end looks like.



and here is what it looks like with the seal pressed into place.



ID of the seal is 1.5" which matches the axle. Sure hope it works...

I cleaned a LOT of leaked gear oil up today. And I just LOVE the smell of gear oil.



Just an update on this... The axle end stayed sealed up through my second Autocross event. On the way home from that event I started to feel a shudder under load at highway speeds which turned out to be my axle bearings starting to give up. I'm assuming the bearing letting thee axle move around more also let gear oil past the seal and build up behind the bearing, eventually working it's way past and down my brake backing pad and onto my brakes and wheels.

I currently have the rear housing stripped down to the bare housing, the third member is getting refreshed with bearings and seals and I've ordered new bearings and seals to put back on both axles before they go back in the housing.

The new axle bearings come with an O-ring around the outside of them. The bearings that came on the axles originally did not have these.



http://www.moserengineering.com/other-pa...g-1-531-id.html

These are the new axle seals to go in the housings in front of the bearings



http://www.moserengineering.com/part-7s151-inner-housing-seal-1-531.html

I'm sure hoping this will seal things up well enough that I can run a heavy duty synthetic gear oil in the diff and it won't be tempted to leak out.

I have to make sure to drive the seal in just a bit further too as this is what the seal looked like when I pulled the axle out on Saturday.





Notice how the "wedding ring" on the inside of the bearing on the axle has rubbed just a bit on the face of the seal?
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/13/14 04:53 PM

What reacts the side-loading/thrust on that rear? Are the bearings tapered?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/13/14 05:52 PM

They are straight sealed bearings, Big Ford style 3.150 x 1.531 and they take 100% of the brunt of the side load.

The shop called and said that the pinion seal surface was trashed so a new yoke has been ordered. I asked about the pinion bearing itself and he said he hammered it off before looking at it very closely. I'm assuming it was what was giving up and shedding the metal I found in the fluid.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/14 11:05 AM

Okay, with the third member all freshened up and the new axle bearings and keepers pressed onto the axles, I'm ready to start putting it all back together. I have what may be somewhat of a dumb question, but remember, there are no dumb questions right...

Should this axle seal be put in the housing end the other direction?





The reason I ask is you can see the ring where the keeper wore against the seal a little bit the last time I put it in. I thought I drove it all the way home when installing it the first time, but it was a bear getting it started and really took some force to drive it in.

If the seal was installed facing the other direction that would give just a little bit more room for the keeper. It doesn't seem right to me though considering which way the lip on the rubber part of the seal faces. Curious what everyone else thinks?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/14 01:36 PM

I'm not sure exactly where I should share this...but it blows my freaking mind...

Here are the pictures of the yoke that came out of the third member that came with my rear housing kit from Quick Performance.





How it ever held any gear oil inside in the first place amazes me. That yoke has been in at least three different installations including this last one. You can tell where my seal rode as the black paint is on the outside of it.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/14 03:38 PM

That is a common problem with shaft seals. Seals tend to cut grooves into the shafts, classic tractor guys have to deal with this all the time. You can get either a speedi sleeve or use JB weld to fill the groove in and sand it smooth.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/14 04:00 PM

Or... Just buy a new one. Like what should have been done when putting together a new third member to sell to one of your customers...
Posted By: Pit

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/16/14 08:54 PM

If that part of the yoke was polished instead of painted, the seal would slip easily, no?

Btw i'm in love for this car!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/14 12:12 AM

I guess what you are saying is Quick Perf installed a well used yoke. Did you get a chance to inspect the pinion bearings?

IMO seal savers, as used on a harmonic damper and maybe a pinion yoke are a waste of time, not a long time cure. When I built my 8 1/2" a new yoke was installed, along with upgrading to 1350 joints on a Denny's HD alum shaft.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/14 11:49 AM

No, he said he hammered them off before looking at them. I'm certain it was giving up though. You should have seen all of the metal I mopped up out of the bottom of the housing. Everything feels so much tighter now.

Everything went back together very smooth, I liked the way the axle bearings felt as they slid into the housing ends. I'm certain the axle seals are going to give it the best chance it's ever had at not leaking too. I'm just waiting for the RTV to set up then I'll put the fluid in, mount the tires and take her for a road test.

Decided to run Royal Purple Max Gear 75W-90. I talked to them and it comes with the friction modifier already in it and is designed to run in limited slip clutch type differentials. Hopefully that will help with heat and noise and maybe reduce the friction a little bit as well.

My new brake pads won't be here until Tuesday so I just cleaned up the old ones and put them back in for now. When I get back from vacation next week I'll rebuild the rear hard brake lines and put the new pads in.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/14 05:24 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Or... Just buy a new one. Like what should have been done when putting together a new third member to sell to one of your customers...


Hopefully that doesn't mean replacement yokes have been discontinued like so many other parts.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/14 11:31 AM

There is a brand new one on my car now...

Drove the car for a little bit yesterday afternoon, everything feels so much better. It is amazing how much drivetrain slop is gone now. It even shifts smoother... I went out and did about 5 soft figure 8s in a parking lot to work the friction modifier into the trac loc clutches then went for a 10 mile jaunt down the highway and back. I plan on taking it back out today for another cruise and that should finish the break in period.

Fairly certain all of the metal I cleaned out of the bottom of the housing was from the pinion bearing.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/02/14 03:22 PM

So, how much does an aluminum rim flex when pushed real hard with sticky tires on it?

About this far...



Thought I had enough room so I left the 1/8" spacers out when I put it all back together this last time, apparently I was wrong.

No major damage though, I was checking it after each run and it wasn't until the 4th run that it burned through the shine seal on the rim...that stuff is TOUGH.

Here's the video, not for the squeamish if you don't like the sound of metal on metal...

http://youtu.be/ZMqR7Cl6XRE

Here are the raw time results for the day.

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_raw.htm

and here are the results by class

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2014/2014event4_fin.htm

Pretty typical finish for me as of late. Had I not hit those 2 cones I would have finished 29th I think, right in between two BMW M3s. I was working on a few things as a driver and really helped the car handle better but at the cost of taking out a few innocent cones along the way.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/04/14 12:01 PM

With a 3 week break between events I figured it was the best time to get after this, so last night I pulled the trans to inspect the clutch. When I pulled the slave cylinder out, these pieces of wire were laying in the bell housing there.



When I pulled the Pressure plate and disc out the throw out bearing just fell out. I'm pretty certain that wire used to hold the bearing onto the Pressure plate. This was a stock style LT1 clutch setup from a 1997 Camaro.



It has been noisey for a while now when you let the clutch out with the trans in neutral, almost like a rod knocking noise...I'm assuming this was the bearing flopping around against the PP fingers.

Good news is the flywheel looks like it can be cleaned up pretty easily.





I'll pull it this morning and get it to a machine shop for grinding.

Here are my top choices for a replacement clutch.

http://www.mcleodracing.com/index.php/super-street-pro-15647.html

SUPER STREET PRO Part Number: 75216

SUPER STREET PRO KIT, CAMARO LT1 '93-'97 11" 1 1/8 x 26 Excellent street/strip clutch capable of handling up to 550HP. Kit includes pressure plate, dual faced disc, alignment tool and throwout bearing.


http://www.ramclutches.com/Products/street%20strip.htm

Powergrip Performance Clutch sets
MUSCLE CAR PERFORMANCE TO 550 HORSEPOWER
As power levels move up to and beyond 500 horsepower. RAM POWERGRIP meets the challenge with a combination of organic and metallic disc friction surfaces that effectively increase the clutch capacity to the 550 horsepower level. The 8-spring hub is equipped with RAM POLYCOIL damper springs encapsulated in polyurethane. This spring can handle three times the shock load of just the coil spring, and is standard in all RAM competition discs. The RAM Competition pressure plate in this kit provides 30% more clamp pressure than stock, and meets SFI specifications. At this high level of performance RAM POWERGRIP provides surprisingly good driving characteristics with smooth, comfortable driver control. Sets include pressure plate, disc, release bearing, and alignment tool unless otherwise noted.


The car puts 400 lb ft to the rear tires at 2,000 rpm, weighs 3511 pounds and is heavily autocrossed and still driven on the street quite a bit. I want a clutch that will hold the power when put down on real sticky tires but not chatter when daily driven or be super stiff to disengage.

I've also looked at Modern Drivelines clutch which is a 2000 pound spring, 100% kevlar\organic disc that comes recommended from a friend. Superior clutch makes theirs out of San Jose, CA

http://www.moderndriveline.com/catalog/clutches.htm

Kevlar®/Organic Clutch
This clutch is a multi-friction type with Kevlar®, and Organic surfaces designed for extra grab and high heat tolerance from high performance applications. Available in 10" or 10.5". Great solution for a track/street car.

Curious if anyone has any experience with them? the price is pretty good, $395 for a complete kit vs over $600 for the other choices. But I'd like some first hand experience with them before going that direction.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/04/14 12:51 PM

Thst is the retaining ring that holds the TO bearing to the pressure plate.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/04/14 01:24 PM

You mean used to be the retaining ring...right? laugh
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/04/14 01:26 PM

I wonder why it would pull off like that.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/04/14 01:44 PM

I'm wondering exactly when it happened? The clutch has always been a little bit noisey, but got increasingly worse. Also, about the same time the clutch started slipping, the car also developed a vibration at highway speeds especially when hot like after an event.

When cool though, in a daily driving setting, the clutch still operated as normal.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/04/14 07:11 PM

10 thousands cleaned the flywheel right up. I ordered the Ram Powergrip clutch kit, should be here on Friday.


Powergrip Performance Clutch sets
MUSCLE CAR PERFORMANCE TO 550 HORSEPOWER
As power levels move up to and beyond 500 horsepower. RAM POWERGRIP meets the challenge with a combination of organic and metallic disc friction surfaces that effectively increase the clutch capacity to the 550 horsepower level. The 8-spring hub is equipped with RAM POLYCOIL damper springs encapsulated in polyurethane. This spring can handle three times the shock load of just the coil spring, and is standard in all RAM competition discs. The RAM Competition pressure plate in this kit provides 30% more clamp pressure than stock, and meets SFI specifications. At this high level of performance RAM POWERGRIP provides surprisingly good driving characteristics with smooth, comfortable driver control. Sets include pressure plate, disc, release bearing, and alignment tool unless otherwise noted.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/04/14 08:01 PM

Nice times therr, Lance!

Beating up on some seriously quick cars!
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/05/14 01:12 PM

Looks like you and I are working on the exact same thing right now! Good luck, I ordered a Carolina Clutch dual-friction for mine.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/05/14 01:57 PM

I've never heard of Carolina Clutch before, which one did you order, the Stage 2? You are running the LT1 style clutch correct?

Their website doesn't really say much about what materials are used on their clutches or what kind of spring pressure they have.

Hopefully my SickSpeed Clutch pedal helps to overcome the 30% more spring pressure my Ram clutch will have over the stock clutch it is replacing...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/14 12:02 PM

Man... I'm beat. shocked

With just 4 hours of sleep and a hangover, I set out to install my new Ram Performance Powergrip clutch Saturday morning. Things went pretty well until it came time to slip the trans back in place. I didn't properly attach the trans to the trans jack when I took it out, the middle portion of the T56 has a ridge along the bottom front to back which made it flop around like a fish out of water. It worked fine for taking it out but not so much for lining the input shaft up through the clutch disc and pilot bearing. After fighting it for a while we finally got it in. While slipping the clutch fork in over the throw out bearing, it didn't go in as I had remembered. I fought with it, finally got it to slip into place but it just didn't look right. The fork was in a different position than it was with the old clutch. It seemed like it was in place though so I shouldered on. Finished up everything else, cross member, driveshaft, exhaust, wires, shifter...then pushed the clutch in and it went halfway in, popped and fell to the floor, and didn't come back up again. :evil:

I was pissed...and very tired, so I quit for the day. After a shower, a meal and a rest on the couch I found myself going to bed at 8 pm...on a Saturday night. Bright and early Sunday morning, I went out to investigate WTF was going on. Pulled the slave cylinder and the pushrod fell out...I guess I missed the cup on the fork with it when I put it in. Still not trusting the clutch fork itself, I pulled the complete trans out to check the clutch fork to throw out bearing fitment. Convinced it was all as it should be, in went the trans again. This time I used a 2x6 under the trans that reached the flat parts on the front and rear part of the case letting me easily use the adjusting screws on the jack to position the trans exactly in place and it slid right into position. Reinstall everything cross member, driveshaft, exhaust, wires, shifter...clutch pedal feels great...start the car in neutral all good, press the clutch in...about halfway down a grinding banging noise happens. A BAD grinding banging noise. :!: The car will start in 4th gear, but not in 1st...the noise happens right about when the clutch is releasing.

We had a visitation service to go to so I cleaned up and left for a few hours. But before leaving I read up on the Camaro boards about an issue when installing an aftermarket clutch kit in LT1 style applications. Apparently the new pressure plates are thicker than the stock ones and an issue comes up where the clutch fork hits the pressure plate. This is what I found when I pulled the trans for the THIRD time this weekend.

Check out the marks on the clutch fork and all of the metal in the bell housing I found upon removal.



And I didn't run it like that very long either.

I ground an 1/8" off of the bottom of the Tee pivot block and rounded in smooth the ridges on the Clutch fork where it was rubbing the pressure plate just in case.

This is where it had rubbed on the pressure plate, the banging was from the edges of the bolt heads hitting the clutch fork ridges.





and where the yellow marks are on the side of the fork is where it was hitting the edge of the pressure plate and the bolt heads...the area that I ground down just a bit to make sure.



It all went back together pretty smoothly only this time I stopped after the cross member was in place and started the car (open headers, no driveshaft) and ran it through the gears to be sure. It all felt good.

I test drove the car tonight and it all works great, no strange noises and the clutch engages and releases just like it should. The pedal travel and engagement spot seem very similar to where they were before, so I'm gonna call it good. There is no chatter, really the clutch feels almost exactly like the old one I took out (except hopefully it won't slip now under extreme load). I just have to break it in now. I still have to put the interior back together but that won't take long.

Why do things have to be so difficult with cars sometimes...
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/14 01:07 PM

I had that same problem with the clutch fork and pressure plate.

Atleast you have a tranny jack, I'm still lifting mine in by hand!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/14 01:40 PM

Thanks for the heads up... smirk

Just kidding... Apparently it is very common, the Camaro boards were full of stories about this. What the biatch is is you can't see ANYTHING once it's all together and it has to be all together first to find out if there is an issue or not.

My heart sank and there might have been a four letter word or two fly when I pushed the clutch in with it running and heard the banging...I thought for sure I was going to be done pulling and reinstalling the trans at that point.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/14 02:08 PM

Sorry I didn't warn you sooner! I believe I was able to stick a small grinder up in there to clearance the shift fork. I'm sure you will, but let me know how you
Like that ram clutch. I'm going to be shopping for a clutch for my LS swap eventually.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/14 03:07 PM

So far the clutch feels good. In normal everyday driving it feels just like the stock clutch. I goosed it a couple of times and it appears to be snappier with the application of torque to the rear tires...but I never really put any heat into it.

Let me get a couple hundred miles on it then I'll start beating on it with earnest...and report back. So far, I think it's the ticket though.

The SickSpeed clutch pedal handles the extra 30% Pressure Plate clamping force with ease.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/12/14 02:13 PM

So I drove the car around quite a bit yesterday, the weather was fantastic and I had a lot of errands to run. I really REALLY like the clutch upgrade. It is apparent to me now just how much my other clutch was slipping under a hard load. I'd compare it to a torque converter on an automatic trans.

Now with the new Ram clutch though, when the torque is applied, the tires spin first before the clutch slips. Big difference... It should make me quite a bit faster on the course too, as long as I can keep the rear end from stepping out coming off corners.

Driveability is fantastic, shifts smooth both up and down, pedal pressure is nearly identical to the stock clutch and the engage\release point is nearly identical as well.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/12/14 08:43 PM

Great to hear Lance!

I'm heading home in a few minutes to continue working on mine. I built a couple master cylinder brackets yesterday and then started working on clearancing tunnel again. When I put the body back on teh frame, I trimmed the body mounts because I didn't want the body to sit higher with good mounts. Apparently it sits lower than it used to, and the trans touches the floor again. I ended up just cutting out a big section and I'll make a new piece to weld on... and then I get to paint it again. But then the good news is I shouldn't be able to hear much trans noise in the car with the damped clutch and the trans off the floor. After paint, I'll finish seam sealing from the inside, add some sound deadener, put the carpet in, and it will sound like a whole new car.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 02:08 PM

So, an intermittent vibration showed up again after the clutch install...which became constant eventually. Actually it first showed up after the first autocross event after I rebuilt the 9". I finally chased it down last night.

Bad axle bearing, driver's side rear. Pissed because a brand new part failed but happy I figured it out and it makes sense. Not knowing is worse. Not that expensive or difficult of a fix either.

[video:youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTVeoQqdFuw[/video]

I ordered the bearings from Moser on 05/12/2014. I installed and drove on them the first time on 05/16/2014, have put 270 miles on them including 4 runs at one autocross event. Apparently Moser buys their bearings from Green Bearing Company and they do not come with any warranty whatsoever. If I want I can send the bearing back to Moser and they will try to get a replacement for me.

OR...

I can pick up a different bearing from a local Napa for $59.00...I believe it's an SKF bearing. According to Moser it's a better bearing but does not have the O-ring seal like the cheap arse Green bearing...

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catalo...28RA_0297815522

Or Auto Zone has a Timken

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/_/N-5yc1s?itemIdentifier=766295

And O'Reilly and Advance Auto have a Federal Mogul National

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/BCA0/88128RA.oap?pt=03337&ppt=C0362

Advance is $39.99, everyone else is about $59.99 for one. Moser charged me $65.00 for a pair...

I don't care about the money, I want a quality bearing. One would have thought I WAS buying a quality bearing from Moser themselves... Shame on me for trusting them.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 02:41 PM

Damn, another bearing!

If you remember I bought my son a 76 Z28 for his HS graduation, car had a 9", 3.90 gears. Chased axle bearing leaks in that rear for two years. Finally told him we were changing it out for a 12 bolt, or, getting rid of the car. Car was sold shortly there after. Yahoo!!!!

Myself I prefer the Timkens, but that was past practice, like most things, probably China now. Been replacing a lot of front and rear hub bearing lately, pretty much all China parts unless you buy GM at 3 times the price.
Bob
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 03:20 PM

I would buy the high quality bearing and send it to a machine shop having it grooved for the O rings.

Lance I have always had great luck with Moser along with excellent service. Remember the root cause is from the original supplier of the rear (Quick performance). If you bought that rear from Moser they would have sent you the 'Good Bearings".... laugh JK.....

On a serious note cutting cost has affected all business now days. Dam shame but that's our fault(Americans)for always looking for the cheapest way out.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 03:22 PM

I ordered a set of Federal Moguls, they'll be here tomorrow. I guilted Moser into sending me a pair of new seals... They didn't even want to do that. "you must be doing something wrong" then wanted to argue with me about the application.

I'll replace the driver's side and then beat it like a rented mule and see what happens with the passenger side. I really don't want to change it out just because. The better bearings will not have the O-ring around the outside which worked to seal the axle up.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 03:25 PM

Bummer you are having these issues after dropping the coin on that 9"
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 03:25 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS


Lance I have always had great luck with Moser along with excellent service. Remember the root cause is from the original supplier of the rear (Quick performance). If you bought that rear from Moser they would have sent you the 'Good Bearings".... laugh JK.....



The QP bearings lasted over 5 years, the Moser bearings didn't last 5 days... wink

The guy at Moser said flat out, "you can get a better bearing from Napa..."

Things happen...and typically if a part is going to fail prematurely, it's going to fail right away. I put the thing together, had about 100 miles on it and took it racing. It started to vibrate on the way home from the track that day.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 06:39 PM

Lance it was a joke about the bearings. wink

Best of luck with your axle.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/17/14 06:51 PM

No problem, I got it. wink

Looks like I need a lot of luck with ALL of my parts as of late... thanks...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/18/14 02:38 PM

Well, I found out the cause of the flexing and rubbing at the last event. Check out the movement on the outer race...

http://youtu.be/yfeeUsZrYjQ

This bearing started to fail in less than 100 street miles. Here in the first autocross lap I ran on it you can hear it already failing...Go to about 34 seconds in

http://youtu.be/ZMqR7Cl6XRE

New bearing will be pressed on today, hopefully this will clear up several issues.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/22/14 04:13 AM

Have you seen these? Seals-it axle seals for 9".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv4-04UTcfo
About at 6 minutes into this video is the seal you need.

A 9" vender was at Carlisle Fri, All GM show, http://sprakerracing.com/ They were selling the Seals-it used by the roundy-round guys to keep the gear oil from running out past the axle bearings.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/22/14 12:34 PM

hmmm.... Thanks Bob. I'll look into that...
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/22/14 07:21 PM

http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand...mp;autoview=SKU

Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/22/14 09:43 PM

How far up the axle toward the diff do you put them?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/23/14 03:43 AM

At the show I just picked up the seal box, believe it was the EAS3-05 for 9", pulled the seal out and looked at it. There was instructions in the box but didn't look at them. Asked the sales guy standing there how they work, "gotta have them to keep the oil from running out of the axle bearing going around in circles" was his answer.

I would call Spraker Racing to get the install info you need, Summit would be clueless I think.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/23/14 11:59 AM

Looks like the high dollar ones ($70) go on the diff side of the axle tube, you pull the third member to install them.

I like the idea of keeping all of the gear oil on the diff instead of down the axle tubes. Need to talk to them more about the different choices those for my application.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/25/14 11:43 AM

Man, I do not want to jinx it...but I think I finally fixed it.

My driveshaft has two new washers welded to it and a brand new U-joint installed. My rims have been polished up inside and out and I put some strong duct tape over the wheel weights this time (there was evidence of the LR tire throwing a few weights, the LR was 1.00 ounce out of balance). The test drive this evening in cool weather was positive, car runs out very smooth.

I won't believe it for sure until I run it in the daytime summer heat as it's always been worse in the heat.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/07/14 02:12 PM

One of the 5 portions of the Ultimate Street Car competition I'm entering in a couple of weeks is a Design and Engineering judging. This is where the judges look your car over and make sure things are functioning like they should on a street car, windows go up and down, windshield wipers work, radio works, AC, signal lights, horn, etc etc...

For 7 years now, my horn has never worked and that is a two point deduction...and I'll need all the help I can get, so Friday morning we settled in to find out why. The wiring looked good but there was some sort of a side clip junction on the wire to the horns not far from them up behind the headlights. We clipped that wire and took the bad junction out. While the wire was exposed, we put the juice to it and the horns blared...test #1 passed.

Now all we had to do was get juice to the wire. After a new butt connector was put on the horn wire, we pulled the steering wheel cap to check out the contact circle and it all looked in place but I chose to not pull the steering wheel at this time to diagnose further inside. Pressing the ring still did not activate the horns though. Since I had to get on with the 4th of July festivities we just put it all back together and I headed home. As I was sitting in the parking lot getting ready to pull out into the street, I reached over to grab my steering wheel cap (horn button) to slip it back into place...as I pressed the button on, the horn honked!!! laugh

Not sure exactly what we did...but it's fixed and works regularly now. Hopefully that concludes my prep work for the Ultimate Street Car Challenge!!!
Posted By: 200kSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/07/14 03:03 PM

Forgive me if I missed it, but was the driveshaft built originally out of balance or did it throw a weight?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/07/14 04:42 PM

I'm not sure exactly, it was balanced when it was built the first time and it was balanced again when it was cut down to fit the T56. There wasn't any sign of a washer coming off of it but maybe this guy that balanced it this last time just spent some extra time fine tuning it as I made it apparent that I'd really like it to be smooth this time.

It is smooootttthhhhh now though for sure.
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/07/14 10:54 PM

Lance, if the horn is working good, don't fix it.
Mine was like that some time ago, I blamed it on the spring that is under the cup that the horn button fits into.
I cleaned the contact on the face of the wheel facing the driver, and the cup where the horn button clips into.
Mine had issues that went away after cleaning the spring and contact areas it touched, it was also 50% working until I cleaned it the second time.
tantrum
HTH
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/14 10:03 PM

I just thought I'd update a few things and report back on the upgrades I did to the car over the last winter.

This season so far the car has 2100 miles put on it, around 70 autocross runs, 15 speed stop runs, (5) 20 minute sessions of road course action, and the rest is daily driving miles. The car is currently leading the local SCCA CAM class championship points and has been invited to attend The Speedway Motors Classic American Muscle Invitational Challenge at the SCCA Pro-Solo finale in Lincoln, NE next month.

During all of this I had to replace the clutch finally and refresh the rear axle seals and bearings, both upgrades came with issues during installation, but once corrected have performed flawlessly ever since.

Last winter I rebuilt the Power Steering system replacing the stock style pump with a reman unit and adding a power steering fluid cooler inline between the steering box and the pump. The fluid was replaced with Royal Purple power steering fluid and I have not had to think about the power steering system once since then...it has stood up to a LOT of abuse this year and kept on running like a Timex. Successful upgrade...

I added 9.5" rims up front and Falken Azenis 615K 275/40/17s on all four corners and this might have been the best upgrade yet. They just flat out work and the extra width up front along with the ability to rotate them around to even wear has been a great combination. They are currently starting to get a bit thin...they might get me through the Pro-Solo and Nationals, but I have canceled my registration for our local events 9 & 10 this weekend as they are going to be at Heartland Park Topeka once again and that surface there just chews tires to pieces and mine won't last through another weekend of that abuse. I've put out some feelers trying to get a little bit of help with some new tires for Nationals, we'll see how that goes. Love the Falkens though...definitely the go to performance tire for the type of driving I have been doing.

The body bushing project...I can't really say it has made a huge difference in the car's performance, but I can say that I'm pretty certain the old bushings would not have held up to the abuse I put the car through this year. I'm glad I did it...and I'm glad I won't have to do it again any time soon.

Things currently being considered are some more front end alignment changes. I need to get less static camber in the front which will involve removing a nut between the driver side UCA shaft and the frame and then all new alignment procedures. I also need to 4 corner weigh the car again and get it set to be balanced with just the driver in the car. At the Pro-Solo and at Solo Nationals you can't take passengers so I need to set the car up to be at it's best with just me in the car.

I also recently split a sway bar end link bushing and instead of just replacing it, I've ordered a special order, one off custom RideTech MuscleBar front sway bar. I'm hoping I'll have time to get it, get it installed and get all of the other alignment and ride height settings updated before Nationals in a month...along with some time to test n tune on the car. This bar is around 30% stiffer than the bar currently in the car and will necessitate a rear spring rate change as well...but should make a huge improvement in the handle of the car on the track. It still just rolls way too much as it is now.

Overall the car has been fantastic to drive this year, everyone that rides with me on track has a blast in it, it always gets lots of pictures taken of it, and overall the response to it has been a lot of fun. I wouldn't change any of that.

Plans for next year are kind of up in the air right now...I really REALLY had fun at the USCA event and told the wife right after that if I could do a few more of those a year, I'd give up the local SCCA racing. That would necessitate at least a 4 point roll bar additions as well as some race seats and harnesses. I'm still mulling that around...
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 02:22 AM

Sounds like fun Lance.

I'm still kinda surprised that you haven't added a rear anti roll bar. You can mount them a bit wider on the axle for auto cross. They really help quiet a bit.

As fare as next year goes I would make a race car out of it. Cage it lighten the thing up and upgrade that motor.

Check out this crazy dude, I love the car!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ll_mLkVo4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv4qouMwhj8
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 03:22 AM

Yeah, I don't believe you one bit when you suggest I cut this car up... laugh
Posted By: mainer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 12:23 PM

that is one sweet TA racer . there is plenty of ratted out montys out there too start a project racer no need to gut one as nice as this.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 12:53 PM

Well actually the car has had it’s cherry popped we could say. I wouldn’t cut the car up in a bad way, as I would hate to see that happen. But if you tastefully do the work it could be really nice.

1) Roll bar painted to match the exterior paint. Having it fit the interior very tight with tight fitting trim parts where penetrations are needed.
2) Racing seats should be covered with interior material. Mike might have rolls of this still?
3) Engine upgrades should be at a minimum of 600 HP.
4) Lighten up the car / aluminum engine upgrade helps get nose weight down.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 01:22 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Well actually the car has had it’s cherry popped we could say. I wouldn’t cut the car up in a bad way, as I would hate to see that happen. But if you tastefully do the work it could be really nice.

1) Roll bar painted to match the exterior paint. Having it fit the interior very tight with tight fitting trim parts where penetrations are needed.
2) Racing seats should be covered with interior material. Mike might have rolls of this still?
3) Engine upgrades should be at a minimum of 600 HP.
4) Lighten up the car / aluminum engine upgrade helps get nose weight down.



I agree with all of that. The car itself is way too nice to cut up.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 02:05 PM

That's all fine and dandy...and I don't really disagree... I just might need some financial help to get all of that accomplished properly.

I have a few recommendations of some qualified cage builders in town that I know can cut, bend up and install the 4 point bar nicely. That shouldn't be an issue. The seats...they are just flat out expensive for some nice ones, no way around that. Harnesses are a no brainer once those two parts are installed.

I'm not as worried about the 600 hp, I have a hard enough time planting the power I have now on the autocross and speed stop. I don't care if they run away from me on the straights as long as I can catch back up to them in the twistys...
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 02:34 PM

I agree about the power. You're down on power compared to Dan, yet you seemed to have kept up with him.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance


I'm not as worried about the 600 hp, I have a hard enough time planting the power I have now on the autocross and speed stop. I don't care if they run away from me on the straights as long as I can catch back up to them in the twistys...



Think like this Lance. Why run them down in the corners when you could be in front of them. Anyone can hold the pedal down and delay the braking to catch someone in a corner. Also running more power is more challenging as a driver, much more.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/14 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
running more power is more challenging as a driver, much more.


Especially on an autocross or speed stop course. In fact, it is sometimes more of a hindrance than a help in those cases.

I already have to squeeze into the throttle coming out of corners to keep from breaking the back tires loose, it would be even tougher with more power.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/01/14 03:51 AM

But, but, but, drifting is FUN!!!
Bob
Posted By: CornerCarver1980

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/04/14 02:11 AM

Agreed. Lance, you don't need more power.... grin
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/04/14 02:43 AM

lol at Keith... Nice times today, you almost got Patrick!!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/06/14 09:01 PM

Business is about to pick up!! Stage 3 is just about ready for install.







Ridetech custom made the center part of the bar out of .250" wall tube and it was going to be a week delay to powdercoat it. I'll have it painted tonight and while it's drying I'll get the old one off and mounting tabs secured to the frame.

I can't wait!!! This should drastically reduce the body roll in the corners...
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/06/14 09:15 PM

Major jealous, i really want to hear your feedback on this upgrade. Why still no rear pro tour style bar though? Your car would definitely benefit from one
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/06/14 10:31 PM

Maybe eventually... We talked about going with a 0.375" wall bar up front and 300# springs out back, but this is getting into an area where a bigger rear bar would be better than stiffer springs.

It's just real hard to gauge the difference in roll control between a 1" solid bar mounted to the LCAs and a 1" solid bar mounted to the axle with the ends chassis mounted.

Technically, it's hard to argue that one would control roll better than the other. In fact, with the LCA mounted bar. the twisting forces originate much closer to the bend in the bar than any of the chassis mounted bar's endlinks let their twisting forces push on the bar.

Do the LCAs moving in opposite directions create more force (if everything else is apples to apples) than the chassis pushing and pulling on the end links all the way at the end of that type of bar?
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/06/14 11:15 PM


Back in the early 90's I made a similar set up on my 85 Monte Carlo. I reduced the body roll so much I actually had over steer. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/07/14 01:37 AM

I can't wait to have that problem... **drool**

That bar is MASSIVE!! and all of the relevant connections are solid or near solid as well. I can't wait to drive it with it on.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/07/14 12:58 PM

drool


I'll say it again.

drool
Posted By: clean8485

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/07/14 10:06 PM

That's a pretty beefy looking bar. Looks like it would be a fairly heavy piece. If that doesn't control the body roll, I'm not sure what will.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/07/14 10:11 PM

That reminds me...I need to weigh it and the old bar while they are both off.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/08/14 05:37 AM

Also need to do your math.
My "personal" PC is kinda junk right now, my pictures, bookmarks are in there. Have been using my wife's Windows 8 laptop, I HATE IT!!

A quick search and I found a bar rate calculator, maybe Ron has a better one.
If you need a wall thickness for a 36mm bar it should be the same as the 34mm bar I cut in half to measure. I'd have to dig that info up for you.
http://www.speed-wiz.com/calculations/suspension/anti-roll-bar-calculation.htm

If the rate is much higher than the 36 bar make sure the bar brackets/frame mounting is up to the task. The threaded holes in the frame are only .200" of thread. The stress increases quickly there from what looks like a substantial rate increase over the 36mm bar, and the almost solid end links, not to mention your driving habits.

That new bar looks very interesting, a little on the pricey side.
Hopefully the fitment will improve over the 36mm, more clearance at the pitman arm and will move the arms for better alignment. Personally never had a clearance issue with my 36mm, plenty of arm to frame clearance.
It will be interesting to see how the angles of the arms work out, what the links length is.
Bob
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/08/14 09:54 AM

I actually had one of those .200 threaded holes for my sway bar bracket strip on me a couple of weeks ago.My buddy drilled the hole out and welded the appropriate size nut in there flush with the frame.Its a lot stronger now.
Guy
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/08/14 11:48 AM

Got the bar in last night... Funny you should mention the threaded holes in the frame (not really). With the Musclebar you put a plate under the frame bracket which attaches to the two existing holes and you then drill a third 5/16s" hole towards the front of the car. They provide you with a self tapping 3/8s bolt to use there. I ran a tap up into the new hole thinking that would be better than trying to start a self tapping bolt while holding the whole bar assembly in place by myself.

Driver side went great, bolts sucked up tight and felt good. On the passenger side, I got greedy and put an extra little oomph on the bolt and felt it pop. mad Thankfully the holes to allow access to the back side of the idler arm bolts are right there and I was able to get a nut inside the frame onto a longer grade 8 bolt to snug it all down real tight. I'm trying to think if I should do the same now on the driver side...

Fitment is great, way more room up against the frame than the 36mm bar and about the same room around the jounce bars. The flat side arms give more room for tire clearance as well. As I figured, the end links look to be about an inch too short. The amount of caster I run raises the tie rods a ton and they look like they'd be alright for daily driving, but they'll hit the side arms under hard braking\front end compression.

That's an easy fix though, should have them lengthened today.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/09/14 07:50 PM

I spent most of the morning finishing up the Muscle bar install. Got the new rear springs in and got the new ride height dialed in with only the driver's weight in the driver's seat. This was a challenge and thankfully my wife was a willing helper. One of these days I need to come up with a clean compact 175#s of weight I can put in the driver's seat.

I got the ride heights dialed in perfect (fender at 25 7/8s" front, 26 7/8s" rear) which should translate into pretty even corner weights and cross weights...then started on the alignment. I knew the left front was off, was surprised how much it was off. It had -2.25 degrees static camber!! Not sure what moved, can't see anything...but it's a LOT better now at -1.1875 camber, +9.6 caster both sides.

Now I just need to get my extended sway bar end links back and do some test driving...before starting on the rear chassis mounted sway bar swap.
Posted By: mainer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/10/14 01:18 AM

man I wish I could get 9 degrees of caster out of my monte right now but Wifey would kill me if I spend any more money this year . soon tho soon I will have to bribe the ups guy or something LOL.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/10/14 01:27 AM

I got my newly extended Musclebar end links from my friend, they fit perfectly. Time for a road test...

I put my autocross shock settings in and headed to the school parking lot and made some turns. The car feels GREAT. I can make it tight or loose with driving changes, it's pretty neutral still overall though. What I notice though is the outside front doesn't dip on turn in nearly as much. That back feels VERY settled too. Whole car is very secure. I took the rebound out of the rear shocks and hit my favorite highway off and on ramps. I was mainly interested in how the rear rolled now...I could tell the front was staying pretty flat. The car felt very good at speed as well, I was a bit tentative not knowing exactly what to expect but it went great so I just keep picking up the speed and it kept sticking. I'm very happy with the balance, Ron nailed the setup once again, it felt very secure.

To recap, I'm happy with the upgrades so far, the MuscleBar is a very worthwhile investment. I found nothing to distract from it either, even driving it on some heavily beat up roads it was fine. I'm certain it's faster now on the course for sure.

Tomorrow I'll pull the LCA mounted bar and try to fit up the Hellwig piece. I don't think it'll be a big deal, main thing will be how level I can get the bar at ride height while keeping it off the diff under compression. If I get it in I'll take it back out and do the same loop I did today and see how it does. I think initially I'll set it on the middle hole leaving me the option of making it stiffer or softer if it needs adjusting.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/10/14 02:07 AM

250# spring on left, 162# spring on right.



Ride height, drivers front turned all the way right



Pass side








My GAWD the bottom of that car is dirty now...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/12/14 05:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Ron Sutton


As far as Lance's current package goes ... without making any major modifications (cutting up) the car ... it only needs a few things:
* Bigger front bar & matching rear springs
* A little more caster & a little less camber
* Scaled to be balanced with just the driver
* New tires to replace his current shredded ones smile
* Once he get's it running flatter, he may be able to reduce the ride height "a little."



I guess we could call this "Stage 3" of master plan...

Bigger front sway bar is now installed along with matching rear springs, but I went a step further and also installed a new chassis mounted rear sway bar to replace the LCA mounted bar the car had on it.

Static camber has been dialed back to -1.2 degrees both sides and caster bumped up to +9.6 degrees both sides.

The ride height has been corrected to balance the car out with the driver only in the driver seat. New ride heights at the fender are 25 7/8s" front, 26 7/8s" rear. Front is about 1/4" lower, rear is about 1/2" lower than with the stage 2 setup. I haven't scaled the car yet but I'm betting from past experience it's pretty close to as good as it'll get without moving weight around.

Still working on a way to get some new tires though...

Here are some pics. Front MuscleBar installed









Rear bar installed







To say the car corners flatter is an understatement...it is unbelievable how much less the car rolls now. I did the front bar and rear springs first, then did some testing with the car. It's like a different car...what I notice the most is the outside front fender doesn't dip down on turn in anywhere near as much as it used to. The balance is neutral, the driver can make the car a bit tight or loose just by making subtle changes. It felt VERY good, should be much faster on the course.

I then put the new rear bar in starting with the end links on the middle of the three adjustment holes and test drove it. The car rolls EVEN LESS now...huge difference. That setting made the car loose halfway through the roll through zone and was a bit sketchy. It was rolling a lot less and changed the handle on the car.

Yesterday I was able to move the end links to the forward hole and drive it on the street a bit more and it's closer to neutral again. It felt more stable and enjoyable to drive spiritedly.

The next plan of attack is to schedule some parking lot shock tuning time and dial in my shock settings to match the new bars and springs. I have to leave town for a week so I won't be able to get on that until next week...but I can't wait.

We've wanted less roll out of the car for a long time and now I finally have it. I can't wait to see how it races the next time out.
Posted By: Monte_ExpreSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/12/14 10:38 PM

Im glad things went in a posititve direction, i knew once you started getting that rear bar dialed in, you'd be loving how much less roll there was. Good job getting everything in so quickly as well.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/13/14 01:04 AM

Thanks... It still needs work but at least it's in there. Really wasn't too bad of an install. It's a bit of a trick getting the axle U-Bolts in place with just two hands though.

I ended up putting loose bolts in the end links first to support each end of the bar, then it just took one hand to lift the bar while the other put the u-bolt assembly together.

I kind of had to fudge a bit on the end link bracket to the frame position as well to keep them off of my tailpipe on the passenger side. I'm still pissed at the exhaust shop that butchered the install of that pipe after my T56 install. It slipped and rolled over a bit when he reinstalled the muffler on that side and he ended up welding it in that position. Someday I'll put new tail pipes on it and fix it right, but it'll have to do for now.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/13/14 01:33 AM

That really looks to be about as good as it can get Lance.

What's the plan? To run the car on a documented previous course. Then posting your before and after progression?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/13/14 02:04 AM

This car never sees the same course twice, it's always something different. I just need to get it as good as I can get it before the SCCA Nationals at the end of August. I'm racing it at Lincoln, NE in the Pro-Solo Finale at the CAM invitational on Sunday August 31st then again on the following Tuesday and Wednesday at the SCCA Solo Nationals.

There'll be a LOT of high end cars at both of those events so I gotta make a good showing. laugh

I really need new tires too. All of those events are on concrete and will devour what little is left of my current set in a hurry.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/13/14 04:27 AM

When you have the car on the rack again could you measure the new bar, OD, ID, Length and arm length. Curiosity is killing the cat.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/14 02:35 AM

So here's the plan... I'm gonna put the rear bar on it's stiffest setting and switch back in my softest springs (162#s) and drive it, hard... If it's tight, I'll stiffen the springs to the 185s, and if it still needs more I'll go to the 200s.

The idea is to have the rear bar as stiff as we can get it while reducing the total roll rate by softening the springs up until it's balanced again.

The springs apply their pressure 100% of the time, car going in a straight line all the way to full cornering pressure whereas the sway bar does nothing when the car is going straight and then gradually increases roll rate pressure as the car rolls harder and harder in a turn reaching max rate at the hardest part of the turn...where it is needed most.

Stiffer springs and less bar rate will give the same total roll rate but will affect corner entry and corner exit. More bar rate and softer springs will not affect corner entry and corner exit but still give the same total roll rate at corner center where it is needed most.

The adjustment holes on the bar are large changes, 60-100# each whereas we can make much smaller adjustments with springs (plus they are easier to swap out).

I like this plan, it makes sense to me. I'll post how it goes once I get back into town and get a chance to play with it some.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/14 12:38 PM

I feel like you're slowly backing into the Herb Adams "Soft springs, large sway bars" theory of handling.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/14 01:03 PM

That has been the theme ever since Ron started helping me... With an added dose of high travel thrown in.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/14 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Stiffer springs and less bar rate will give the same total roll rate but will affect corner entry and corner exit. More bar rate and softer springs will not affect corner entry and corner exit but still give the same total roll rate at corner center where it is needed most.


In *the biz* wink lmao we use roll rate to describe the rate of change of the roll angle. So mid-turn, the roll rate is essentially zero because the roll angle is relatively constant. I believe you are referring to roll stiffness, which is the suspensions resistance to roll, much in the same way a spring resists deflection.

I agree that if you are happy with how the car drives other than the roll, the bar is the way to go. The springs will affect LLTD (lateral load transfer distribution) when you transfer weight front to rear. By doing that, you'd have to re-tune your dampers, and it's still going to be different than it was in the first place.

On a side note, in terms of ride comfort, the springs also play a role in the ride stiffness/vertical ride frequency. If the front and rear ride frequencies differ too much (or not enough), it can cause a pitching response to vertical inputs. Imagine a step-input, like driving onto a milled road surface. The whole car drops 2 inches. If you have sufficiently different ride frequencies front/rear, the car will pitch and that is uncomfortable. Usually 10% higher frequency in the rear is a good target.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/14/14 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Originally Posted By: SSLance
Stiffer springs and less bar rate will give the same total roll rate but will affect corner entry and corner exit. More bar rate and softer springs will not affect corner entry and corner exit but still give the same total roll rate at corner center where it is needed most.


In *the biz* wink lmao we use roll rate to describe the rate of change of the roll angle. So mid-turn, the roll rate is essentially zero because the roll angle is relatively constant. I believe you are referring to roll stiffness, which is the suspensions resistance to roll, much in the same way a spring resists deflection.

I agree that if you are happy with how the car drives other than the roll, the bar is the way to go. The springs will affect LLTD (lateral load transfer distribution) when you transfer weight front to rear. By doing that, you'd have to re-tune your dampers, and it's still going to be different than it was in the first place.

On a side note, in terms of ride comfort, the springs also play a role in the ride stiffness/vertical ride frequency. If the front and rear ride frequencies differ too much (or not enough), it can cause a pitching response to vertical inputs. Imagine a step-input, like driving onto a milled road surface. The whole car drops 2 inches. If you have sufficiently different ride frequencies front/rear, the car will pitch and that is uncomfortable. Usually 10% higher frequency in the rear is a good target.


Does this mean when your car is done Bernie it will look like something from back to the future? You know the interior is full of PLC processors logging data from several load cells, transducers and lasers that are measuring all those frequencies, loads and such. Well so much for the traditional seat of the pants feel..... lmao

I guess I'm done with cars....This is just like work now. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/15/14 02:26 AM

I'mglad iI'mjust the driver... And the wrench... Leave all that figurin to the experts! laugh
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/15/14 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Does this mean when your car is done Bernie it will look like something from back to the future? You know the interior is full of PLC processors logging data from several load cells, transducers and lasers that are measuring all those frequencies, loads and such. Well so much for the traditional seat of the pants feel..... lmao

I guess I'm done with cars....This is just like work now. laugh


You can figure the ride frequency stuff out on paper, knowing the spring rate, motion ratio, and axle weights. That gets you plenty close enough to avoid the pitch response.

FWIW, this really is just like work to me. I don't think you have to be an expert with tons of instrumentation to have a fast car that you designed. I don't have access to all of the instrumentation that I use at work for my personal use. But I may very well, at some point in the future, have the first G-body with some form of vehicle dynamic data acquisition on-board. Lance has demonstrated the importance of testing and tuning, without doubt. I can take the hint on all the technical talk though smile
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/15/14 05:48 PM

Bernie,

It was a joke and honestly I don't consider your writtings at a high technical level. When you talk about frequency I'm used to measuring these values in my work to meet specific targets issued by engineering. I know this inside and out as I do it on a daily basis. So it's a bit funny to hear these conversations in such a generic form with no supporting values.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/15/14 08:00 PM

I like all the technical talk, I just ddon't always speak it back just right!
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/16/14 01:07 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I like all the technical talk, I just don't always speak it back just right!



Lance you don't need to say anything......You knew what you wanted. Procured the information and executed an excellent finished product.

No matter how good any of us are at building cars team efforts always seem to pay off better in my experience.

For sure Bernie is very smart and could teach me quiet a bit about suspension. I deal in values he speaks of in different concepts of mechanical engineering with large machines not cars.

Maybe one day I will build one of these and I will be relying on information posted here?

It was just the other day I was stripping out wires from my harness in the engine bay and I thought I pulled one to many from the fuse block. So what did I do??? I went to Lances wire identification plug sticky and was bailed out. I thought I chopped the temp sending unit wire verses the solenoid wire for the High idle speed on a ac car. I know this stuff inside and out. But once you get to comfortable sometimes you move faster than the brain and botch the job. I got lucky this time. laugh But anyways Thanks Lance.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/16/14 01:52 AM

No problem...I've had to go back there a time or two as well looking for things. It really should be stickied...as it's kind of hard to find.

I will say though, I didn't really know what I wanted when I started on this journey, I had a better idea of what I didn't want. As I slowly chipped away at the things I didn't like I started liking my changes more and more. It kind of snowballed from there.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/28/14 05:38 PM

I spent time last week fine tuning the installation of the Chassis mounted sway bar and got some road testing in last Friday night. We decided to try the stiffest bar setting and my softest springs I had on hand, 162# springs. The car felt fine on the spirited road driving but all of my parking lots had cars in them so I couldn't do any simulated autocross turns. It was just a touch tight if anything on the road, so Saturday morning I swapped in my 185# springs and went back out. I found a parking lot and made quite a few runs while adjusting on the shocks. I got the car "okay" but I had a weird hopping issue on the rear that made me loose when it happened. I couldn't place exactly what was happening but remember the whole setup is new to me. What I found when I got back to the shop is the end links on the rear sway bar had pushed on the axle mounts and rotated them back far enough for the endlinks to go up top over center and jam the sway bar ends pointing up. Thinking that this was causing binding which was causing my hopping issue I proceeded to have my friend John make me some 3/4" spacers to lower the axle brackets so I could rotate them forward enough to get the end links pointing straight down and keep the bar off the diff.

Then I came in the house and reviewed the videos I took...and found the REAL PROBLEM... The inside rear tire was lifting off the ground on hard autocross type turns.

I went back out Sunday morning and tried it again wondering if the new spacers and repositioned bar would fix this issue, it didn't. I could tell right away now that I recognize the feeling when the inside tire lifts. I then put the bar on the middle setting and tried again, no help. So I tried the softest setting...a bit better maybe, but still no good. No way can I autocross the car like this. It drives FANTASTIC on the street, on and off ramps are a hoot...car is balanced, secure, and just fun to drive...until I try to make a hard simulated autocross type turn...where it lifts the inside tire, the rear hops a bit...then slides loose.

I decided to punt and pulled the bar and put my LCA mounted bar back on as I know I can race with it and I have several big races coming up next weekend. At the same time I put the 250# pound springs back in that were matched to the LCA bar and new front sway bar. Except...I noticed a difference and upon further review found one of them to be a 200# spring instead of a 250#, wrong one came in the box. FML!!

So I put a set of 200# springs I had in so they'd match and test drove it.

Here is the video that shows the inside rear tire with the chassis mounted bar on all three settings and then the LCA bar...all taken Sunday in similar type conditions.

http://youtu.be/QzsIIIf5PaI

My conclusion... While the chassis mounted bar really helped the street manners, it was too much sway bar to use for autocross. There may be other adjustments that can be made to other parts of the setup to help it all work together, but right now I just don't have the time to be trying to find them. Maybe I'll give it a shot again in the off season. For now I'm going with what I know works.

I got the correct 250# spring in yesterday and after a quick install I made a trip to my favorite parking lot and could tell in just one turn that it was better...WAY better. It's back to being balanced in the turn like it has been since stage 2 was installed and the hoppity hop is gone. I then put the car on the scales, set the ride height properly with the driver's weight in the seat and adjusted the springs until the cross and left side weight equaled 100% and locked it down.





That was with me sitting in the driver seat and a full tank of gas which is usually how I start out an event. The ride height was adjusted right where we needed it as well, 25 7/8" at each front fender and 26 7/8" at each rear fender.

I'm pretty happy with how it turned out, especially since it's a fully trimmed street car with AC, battery up front...the whole nine yards.

Between those adjustments, the new 9.6* of caster and -1.2* camber settings, the new stiffer front sway bar and rear springs to match...plus a brand new shiney set of Falken rubber...it should run pretty well.

It's full of gas, just needs a quick bath, loaded on the trailer, rest of the gear loaded up and I'm heading to the SCCA Nationals in Lincoln Nebraska first thing Saturday morning. I was invited to participate in the CAM Pro Solo Invitational on Sunday which I'm really stoked about and then I'll be racing in the new CAM Contemporary Class at the Solo Nats on Tuesday and Wednesday.
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/28/14 06:05 PM

Just got all caught up on the thread, nice to see how well its coming along.
Incase anyone is wondering Afco along with Dynatech was bought by speedway motors a few years back, so was US brake which I believe was dissolved into Afco. They just bought PRO shocks as well. Most of "Speedway" brand stuff is repackaged from these brands, or comes from china. Not knocking them, just how it is.

And on the 9" as far as I know the outer bearings are never an "oil bath" and use the grease supplied with them. And circle tracker do always use an inner seal just outboard of the pumpkin to keep the carrier bearings oiled.


Anyways GOOD LUCK!

Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/28/14 09:55 PM

Those scale numbers look real good Lance. That baby is dialed in for sure.

I'm really interested to get the Feedback on the sway bar changes after you run. (I missed some of that part in the post got my answer earlier than expected) laugh. I was more so interested in the rear.

I'll be excited to get to that point someday. With a non AC car and the LS3 I might be 50 pounds less nose heavy if I'm lucky.



Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 04:39 PM

I suppose an update is in order here to catch everyone up on things I have done with the car. Since my last post the car has competed at the SCCA CAM Invitational and also at the SCCA Solo Nationals both in Lincoln Nebraska. When I got to Lincoln on Saturday, we had an hour of test sessions on the practice course in which I got to make 4 runs on my first autocross course on a concrete surface. I've learned that no matter how you practice in a parking lot, nothing really resembles actual on track performance. The car was loose, I spent some time adjusting on the shocks to try to tame the looseness and thought that I had it okay. There were a lot of different factors involved (new surface, new front sway bar and new rear springs) and with only 4 runs to dial it in, I did the best I could. Mental note to myself for future reference, don't make major setup changes to your car right before big National type events!!!

Early Sunday morning we lined up for 4 practice runs on the Pro Solo courses we'd be racing on later that day, two on left course, two on right course...all consecutively with no chance for adjustments other than tire pressures between runs (I never even got out of the car). The car was still a bit loose, enough so that I actually spun it near the start of my 4th run. I was trying to figure out if it was the tires and the new surface not playing nice, driving style, shock adjustments, basically I was at a loss and had no time to make any changes nor did I know exactly what to change to fix it before the challenge round. In the challenge round, after it rained, I spun the car again near the start of my first round effectively ending my day. Here's the video of my 4 practice runs and 2 challenge runs.

http://youtu.be/61sQ7grymAs

I did some soul searching that afternoon as well as talking to some of the regulars that run high horsepower rear wheel drive cars up at Lincoln regularly and came to the conclusion that I needed a softer spring in the rear. For some weird reason, I had stuck the 200# springs I had in my truck before heading North. I texted Ron Sutton to make sure he agreed and when he did I took the 250# springs out and put the 200# springs in. Thankfully with the Ridetech setup this is about a 15 minute project total start to finish in the paddock parking lot.

I had an hour of practice time scheduled for Monday morning at 8 am to finish dialing the car in before the Solo Nationals races started on Tuesday morning. Before the start of the practice runs, I put my GoPro under the car again pointing at the inside of the driver's rear so I could see exactly what the rear was doing in between runs and adjust on things accordingly. On my first run I could tell immediately that the car felt better. It was still a bit loose in the roll through zone but not edgy, I could still put power down and it would slide, but not enough that it would just step out and spin like before. Ever since this setup was put in and initial shock adjustments were made, it was always a bit loose at times in the roll through zone. I'd tell Ron this and he'd make a comment like "Really?" like there was no way it should be loose. I then watched the GoPro video of my first run...and noticed right away the inside rear tire was STILL lifting off the course a bit mid turn. I'm convinced now this has been going on all year long. You can't tell from the driver's seat, you can't even tell from the videos I ran with the GoPro on the fender looking down at the rear tire, but when you run the camera looking at the inside of the rear tire during an actual run, it becomes clear as day what is going on. I had 3 more practice runs to fix this, so I started taking rebound out of the rear shocks. It was the only way I could figure to keep the body of the car from lifting the inside rear tire mid corner. It started working...-2 clicks, tire just barely lifts. -2 more clicks...tire appears to stay on the ground, just the bulge at the bottom of the tire stretches out. The handle starts to change a bit also though so the next run I add two click of compression on the front. This caused the car to push just a bit so I decided to take the compression back out of the front and take 2 more clicks of rebound out of the rear and race it like that. I was out of test runs so there was no way to be sure if it was going to be perfect or not, but I knew that with the lighter springs in the rear and the adjusted shocks...it was going to be WAY easier to drive than it was in the Challenge on Sunday. Here are the 4 practice runs taken while I was adjusting on the shocks.

http://youtu.be/onn416PnaPE

Tuesday was race day... Man, what a spectacle this place is...200 acres of concrete, 1200 racers, two courses, all running like a well oiled machine. It is impressive what the SCCA does to put this event on and if anyone ever gets the chance to go, I highly recommend it. My class is working heat 1, running heat 3...which is perfect for me, feels just like home. I do my work stint on the East course then I have an hour or so to warm the car up and get it to grid before heat 3 starts. I'm feeling pretty good, have walked the course for the 4th or 5th time earlier that morning and when the starter tells me it's time to go, I'm ready. I take it pretty easy remembering how many times I've spun since being up there. First run was pretty clean, set a decent time and most importantly the car felt very settled. It was back to being my old car that I love to drive. So for the second run I decided I needed to get after it...and on the second element it got a bit loose sliding the rear out the exit of the turn. But it stayed in control and I kept after it. On the back slalom there is what I called a "gotcha" cone, it sneaks up on you if you aren't ready for it and on this run...I wasn't ready. I had to make an abrupt move to get past it and this abrupt move upset the rear of the car (probably lifting the inside rear tire once again) and I had to save it two or three times before settling the car down again while at the same time costing me a lot of time. The good news is, I could drive the car again, even with it upset like that I was still able to hang on to it and gather it back up again. On my third run, I scaled it back and trail braked a ton trying to keep the car settled yet maintain my speed. I think I picked up a half second over the second run but was still slower than my first run which ended up being my fastest on the East course. We were then done for the day even though I thought and really wanted a 4th run, apparently you only get 3 runs at Nationals...

On Wednesday the schedule was the same only we were running on the West Course which was more tight and technical whereas the East course was more open and flowing. I felt that tight and technical fit more into my wheelhouse and was ready to make up some time. I was sitting in 3rd place of 9 drivers in my Class and had been informed by Chris in 4th that he was coming for me. laugh That didn't bother me though as I was gunning for 2nd place. The car felt GREAT on my first run, I hadn't changed a thing on it since the practice course on Monday but it just did everything I wanted it to do. Maybe the driver was finally figuring the concrete out, maybe the surface was better over there...or maybe it was just my day...who knows but the run felt great. On my second run I really let it all hang out and I picked up almost 2 seconds...I was starting to feel it. We were all calculating between runs where everyone was and Mike in 2nd place had just eeked by Keith in first and I was still in 3rd with a decent lead on 4th. As I was rolling off the course after my 3rd run I heard on the radio that Keith had picked up 3 tenths and secured the class win, I had picked up a couple more tenths and felt pretty good that I'd finish 3rd which was the last trophy spot...which I did. I brought home a trophy on my first trip to Solo Nationals...how about that?!?!

Better than that though was my car was back and better than ever. Watching the videos and pictures back, it now corners much flatter with the new Ridetech MuscleBar up front and really sticks to the track letting me wheel the wee out of it while still maintaining control. My cousins drove down from Edmonton, Alberta to watch and my business partner came up from Florida as well and it was cool having them there during all of this. Jim even took my camera and got some great sideline videos of me running the car on course. This is my second run from both the East course and the West course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqVdpJOcipI

And here are my in car videos of all 3 runs from both days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK-8JjRrZaE

This picture was taken during my Challenge run on Sunday, probably right before I spun



These were taken early Sunday morning our practice runs before the Challenge











This is me lined up against Robbie Unser in the Speedway Motors prepped Nova for my second run in the Challenge







To sum it...it was an awesome adventure that I'll remember forever. I can't wait to go back and do it again and next I'll be better prepared for what to expect and will be in a better position to finish even higher.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 05:38 PM

After we were done racing on Wednesday, I booked an hour of practice time on the practice course again and took my partner and cousins for some fun runs...

http://youtu.be/_R2b8dP7GgE
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 07:34 PM

Great write-up and congrats on placing third!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 08:08 PM

Don't lie...ain't no way you read all of that!! laugh

Thanks...
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Don't lie...ain't no way you read all of that!! laugh

Thanks...


Not true. I only don't read everything when it's midnight and I need to get it published. smile


Here, I'll summarize:

The car felt loose, you found out that Barney was doing its best "dog marking a fire hydrant" impression, you fixed some stuff, won a sweet trophy. Done and done. lmao
Posted By: shaner85

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 08:18 PM

How many other Gbody cars in your class? I am not well versed in the classes so I apologize if this was asked and answered...

Cheers and great driving.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 08:48 PM

lol @ Dave!! You DID read it all...


I was the only G-Body up there that I was aware of. In my class there was an 82 Fox body with 335s on all 4 corners and 2 drivers, a 2011 Camaro, a 2005 Mustang with 2 drivers, a heavily modified 88 GTA, and a 85 Corvette that didn't post a time.
Posted By: mainer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/14 09:37 PM

good wright up Lance , to add to Dave's analogy Barney needed to be trained to squat and came of the corner like a scalded Dog headed for the next set of bones OH I meant cones. LOL
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/12/14 01:02 AM

Thanks... I put off the write up as I knew it would be so long to include all that happened. It was one busy and hectic week. I was wore out on racing by the time I got back home again.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/14/14 09:27 PM

I finally got through everything and watched the videos. You really can't squeeze anymore juice from that orange. The car is coming loose lightly but still holding on by a thread. It kinda makes me laugh a bit thinking of you being tossed around the car during all that. Man you must have really wanted that billet cone bad..... laugh

Congrats on the trophy and one hell of a job wheeling that girl around.





Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/15/14 11:47 AM

Oh there's still more in there...lots more. Most of it has to come from the driver's seat though. I still make mistakes on just about every run I make, the good thing is that I'm recognizing them easier and faster now which hopefully leads to stopping them before they happen next.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/15/14 09:36 PM

So, on the morning of the last day of racing in Lincoln, I heard a familiar noise when the clutch pedal was pushed all the way in...the old clutch fork against the pressure plate grinding.

Everything still worked though and I made it through my 3 runs plus 4 fun runs after, but after the last fun run it was getting to the point where the clutch wouldn't disengage before the fork hit the PP. I had a pretty good idea of what was happening but all I wanted to do was get the car on the trailer and get home.

Once back on the lift and after a few days rest, I pulled the slave cylinder off and my suspicions were confirmed.



This is the bolt that holds the Tee-block that the cluck fork pivots on. It had worked loose allowing the clutch fork to travel further forward eventually hitting the pressure plate when the clutch pedal was depressed.

Problem is, one has to remove the transmission to tighten the bolt. mad

Exhaust, drive shaft, inspection plate, starter, crossmember, and eventually the trans have to come out to get to the bolt head.

So I did all of this, soaked the bolt real good in blue lock-tite and reinstalled everything. Right before I put the slave cylinder back on I snapped this picture and started banging my head against the rack...



It appears that the reason the bolt came loose is because after I shortened the Tee-Block to keep the fork off of the PP the first time, the bolt now bottoms out before the Tee-block is tight against the trans housing.

I let it sit like that for about a week before deciding to go ahead and button it the rest of the way up and drive it like it is until it starts to happen again. If it comes loose again I'll pull it all apart once more and shorten the bolt.

Aren't cars fun...
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/15/14 09:44 PM

One little tip when using loctite blue. You have there 242 medium strength, its a lighter blue. That's a good choice but it's not oil resistant. On automotive / machinery I would recommend to use 243 blue which is medium strength, good to 360 degrees F and oil tolerant part#1329467.
Posted By: mainer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/15/14 10:18 PM

Oh that's a kick in the pants .
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/15/14 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: mainer
Oh that's a kick in the pants .


I would say it's helping someone that has helped me quiet a bit. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/16/14 01:23 AM

I had two tubes of new red loctite on hand but figured at some point that bolt may need to come back out on purpose, so I did use it. Not sure what flavor of blue I used, it's been around a while, I'll look though.

While I'm getting quite good at R & Ring the trans, I really don't want to do it again any time soon. Hopefully this holds for a while.
Posted By: mainer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/16/14 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Originally Posted By: mainer
Oh that's a kick in the pants .


I would say it's helping someone that has helped me quiet a bit. laugh

1 Slow SS I was talking about Lance's luck with the bolt/nut not you comment sorry for any confusion . I didn't think your input could be taking as anything but trying to be help full. guess I should have been clearer with mine. again I apologize.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/02/14 01:13 AM

So, the 2014 racing season is over for me. As I sit and watch updates from all of my friends heading to Vegas for SEMA and OUSCI I'm reflecting on this last season and making plans for next year. This year exceeded my expectations big time, but my plans for next year are even greater.

The event this past Sunday was great, I was able to hold off the rest in my class and take a win in CAM. The car just loved that particular course and all of the learning I did over the year as a driver helped as well. Here are some pictures taken of Barney on the course at Event 13 by David Peterlin of Peterlin Photography.



and no, I did NOT hit that cone. laugh



Took 4 first timers for rides...they all loved it.







Even let a fellow competitor run a heat in my car to measure myself up against him.





Here's a video I took with a Garmin VIRB Elite camera I borrowed on my 4th run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhaXueXzBvc

And here's a video of Bradshaw's daughter Braelyn getting her indoctrination to autocrossing the right way...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2AVNXzURA4


Stay tuned for the new plans for the off season. Updating safety equipment is job one, updating the rear axle bearings is another...and we'll have to see how much is left over in the kitty after that to see if there are to be any other upgrades made.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 11/02/14 01:41 AM

Thanks again Lance. She had a blast. I really need to figure a way to get my car worthy of a few runs ( on a tight budget).

I so wanted to go out there and give it a try.
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/07/14 05:10 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance







My GAWD the bottom of that car is dirty now...



did you have to shim the front frame brace to clear the sway bar?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/08/14 03:22 AM

I had to shim them both at both the frame and the crossmember ends considerably just to get the brace to clear the 36mm F body bar I ran before this one. Was hoping to take a few shims out when this bar went in but there were needed with it as well.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/09/14 04:33 PM

Lance what are the upgrade plans for next year if any?
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/09/14 06:16 PM

I don't know what Lance has planned but I have first dibs on his cast offs! lmao
Posted By: SicMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/09/14 07:59 PM

SS Ninja....I may have some Ridetech single adjustable coilovers for sale soon.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/09/14 09:27 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Lance what are the upgrade plans for next year if any?


Working on safety mostly, seats, harnesses, roll bar, bigger wheel bearings front and rear which also most likely includes bigger brakes as well.

Originally Posted By: SS Ninja
I don't know what Lance has planned but I have first dibs on his cast offs! lmao


You don't want any of my old worn out junk... poke
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/09/14 11:16 PM

How about adding some hp? poke
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/14 03:32 AM

On the list, but I'm afraid it's pretty far down the list for now...
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/10/14 03:36 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I had to shim them both at both the frame and the crossmember ends considerably just to get the brace to clear the 36mm F body bar I ran before this one. Was hoping to take a few shims out when this bar went in but there were needed with it as well.



ok, thanks. i had a buddy of mine put the braces in a bender to give them a tweak, i still had to add a washer, thinking once the car drops down onto the ground, i may get them tweaked again.
Posted By: notreadleft

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/15/14 02:50 PM

anyone running the jeep steering shaft upgrade if so what years??? also whose running 10" wide wheels with no frame notch ..whats your backspacing ?
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/16/14 12:21 PM

I have them on both of mine and it's the early XJ. If the steering shaft runs into the interior before you see the upper U-joint, it's the wrong one (the later one).

5" backspacing is as deep as you can go on the rear without a notch and 10" will stick out. 9.5" is the widest you can go or else we'd all have 10's out back.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/28/14 08:28 PM

Oh my...what have I done now? laugh





I've ran the stock CCC carb, distributor, and ECM on my car for the whole 7 years that I've had this 383 in my car and it has ran great. It's got many wins in it's class with the SCCA autocross, a Street Modified championship, a third place trophy in it's debut at the SCCA Solo Nationals, and several very successful track day events where it surprised a lot of people over the past couple of years.

During the later part of this season though, at our autox events held on larger more open courses...the car kept getting beat by the newer LS powered cars in my class. I wasn't sure what to do about it until the last event of the season which was held on our local tight technical course where I won over those same cars by over a second. I was getting beat by an upper RPM horsepower deficiency. It was time for a change...

This engine has always built fantastic torque down low, but the ECM would pick up noise from the knock sensor and start pulling timing out up around 4250 RPM which would kill the upper end horsepower.



I researched putting a MPFI setup on this engine but ultimately decided I could swap in a LS1 cheaper than to put EFI on this engine correctly...and I'm not really interested in doing that at least right now. So I started researching ignition boxes and found this super cool MSD unit #6530 for sale locally at a good price, so I picked it up. Bradshaw had a re-man quadajet left over from his car he didn't need anymore and I picked up a new MSD #85551 distributor and started the swap to pull the CCC out and put the MSD ignition box in.

My heater core sprung a leak last fall so it needed to be replaced as well, seemed like a good time to do it all at once.

My goal is to get the complete CCC harness out in one piece, put the ignition box somewhere under the dash and use the CCC grommet to run the MSD harness back to the engine. The distributor has had the mechanical advance locked out and is set back in place with the rotor pointed at the #1 spark plug wire and a basic tune has been loaded into the programmable MSD box.





I sent the carb off to a friend to have him make sure it is 100% ready to run so that when it's bolted on and the ignition box is fired off, my ignition problems should be solved and hopefully I can realize the true potential of this engine.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/28/14 10:02 PM

Done yet? poke
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/28/14 10:07 PM

For the day... laugh
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/14 12:08 AM

You're doing an awesome job Lance,I am planning on using a programmable ignition box next season too.
Have you given any thought to doing away with the ac/heater box and just using a small under dash heater ??
That "suitcase" is bulky,heavy and just plain ugly.
Guy
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/14 12:25 AM

Looks Great Lance. That 383 should run much better upstairs now!

I also looked at putting efi on my 383, and it just didnt seem worth it. I bought my complete ls2 for what a stealth ram kit costs.

If you decide to pull the a/c out of the car, I'll buy it!
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/14 02:43 AM

Hopefully that carb did not need much if anything. Cant wait to ride again!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/19/15 03:02 PM

I recently went to PRI in Indy to try on Race seats in preparation for major safety upgrades for the interior of Barney. I wanted to run a HANS device on any future track days and this meant I also needed to add harnesses, which meant new seats as well as a place to attach the shoulder harnesses too. After all of the groundwork was laid, seat style picked out, roll bar installation design and quote...I got cold feet and had pretty much decided to not go through with it. It was going to take a rear seat delete modification to make it work properly and still look good and I also couldn't find the exact seats I wanted...



That was until a week ago Friday. This is when I stumbled across a garage sale ad on a forum I frequent that had a perfect pair of seats in it at a fantastic price. I jumped on the seller, asked questions about the seats and then nearly after committed to purchasing them. After a week of waiting, talking, sending Fedex labels and money...Saturday the seats were tendered to Fedex so I guess this deal is a go.






These seats come with a winning pedigree already, they were in Mark Stielow's 1967 Camaro Mayhem when it won the Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge in 2012. Hope I can do them justice in Barney as well.

Saturday I took the GTO front seats and rear seats out of the car and Sunday delivered them to their new owner. Once the new seats get here I'll get them mocked into place...then once I get the car running again it's off to the fab shop for the roll bar and rear seat delete sheet metal to be put into place. Then I'll cover the sheet metal with sound deadener and eventually carpet that matches the maroon carpet up front for hopefully a very nice finished look on my now two seat street car.

It's a big change, but I'm certain I'll be much safer in the car plus I'll be more secure which should help the driving and the added bonus will be the roll bar structure will significantly stiffen up the body which will also help with the car's performance.

The getting the car running again bit entails a new carburetor, distributor, and ignition system. I've pulled the 1985 factory CCC computer system and am working on a new mechanical Quadrajet, MSD programmable ignition box\distributor and a wideband 02 meter install which should help me tune some more power into the upper RPM range to help me beat that Poncho and Camaro in this coming season on the bigger courses.

I also pulled the steering column and sent it out to be completely rebuilt and modified to more match the new features of the car. It'll be locked in park, the linkage arm removed, and the steering wheel lock disabled as well as the very worn tilt mechanism rebuilt and improved upon over the factory version and have a nice satin black paint finish applied before it's sent back.

Right now the car is in hundreds of pieces and I'm in parts jail waiting for everything to come back before I can reinstall. Hopefully everything will come in in the next week or so and once I get back from my trip to FL next week I can resume on the off season upgrade projects.
Posted By: 200kSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/19/15 10:57 PM

Those are some great looking boxes. wink

Assuming custom bracketry will be required to fit the Recaro's into a G-body?

Pretty sure the new owner of the GTO seats is happy you pulled the trigger on the upgrade.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/15 12:13 AM

That's good to see the car go more towards the race side. I think you'll be much happier this year with it.

Is that a new T56 magnum I see in the picture?

I can't wait to get back into my car again. I scheduled a couple months off of work this year. So I should be able too get back at working on mine soon.

Also seeing the direction you're going. I might just do my roll bar now while the interior is out.

Keep up with a Poncho???? Good luck on that Lance..... laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/15 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: 200kSS
Those are some great looking boxes. wink

Assuming custom bracketry will be required to fit the Recaro's into a G-body?

Pretty sure the new owner of the GTO seats is happy you pulled the trigger on the upgrade.


They'll look better once they get here Wednesday. I picked up a pair of Recaro sliders, seats have the side brackets on them...hopefully not too much needed to adapt the sliders to the floor of Barney. I think I've got a guy that can help me out. wink

I'm thinking the guy's wife is even happier that she'll have a nicer seat to ride in now.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/15 03:23 AM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
That's good to see the car go more towards the race side. I think you'll be much happier this year with it.

Is that a new T56 magnum I see in the picture?

I can't wait to get back into my car again. I scheduled a couple months off of work this year. So I should be able too get back at working on mine soon.

Also seeing the direction you're going. I might just do my roll bar now while the interior is out.

Keep up with a Poncho???? Good luck on that Lance..... laugh


Mark sent that pic to show me the boxes he crafted up, that's in his shop. Not sure what trans that is...he had several for sale as well.

I learned a lot about putting a roll bar in a G-Body. It's good...and bad. Good you don't have to go through the floor to the frame, bad as it seriously encroaches into the area the back seat is in. I'm actually pretty stoked that I'll have a place to securely mount other things now like a fire extinguisher and a permanent GoPro mount with a good view. Still curious if I'll be able to retain the 3 point belts to use for street driving, that's the only question right now.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/15 03:37 AM

I would think you can keep the factory style 3 point seat belts. I have been in a few G bodies with cages and I don't see any issue with retaining factory seat belt placement. But who bends and fits the pipes will determine fitment characteristics. Worse case mount the upper belt mount to the cage frame.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/20/15 12:27 PM

The main thing is how the belt fits over the seat. Some people say to run the 3 point belt though the harness holes in the seat but I don't think I want to do that.

If the factory belt fits snugly over my body (mainly my lap) when in the seat, it'll be fine.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/15 03:40 PM

It's possible that maybe I'm a tad too excited about these...

Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/15 04:10 PM

vvvrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRR, vrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, vrrrRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!
lmao
Posted By: 200kSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/15 04:51 PM

I KNOW THAT LOOK! My wife says I do the same thing. Those seats do look great.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/15 05:51 PM

lol... My wife sent an email to my store manager apologizing for the way I'm acting today...and CC'd me on the email laugh

Here's a better picture of just the seats.



They are darker black than I imagined and the grey on the shoulder bolster is very understated. I think they are gonna look fantastic in the car.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/15 06:13 PM

Are you changing so much about the car that now you are going to sit in the passenger side seat? Or is your real plan to be the fastest mail carrier in the KC metro area? poke
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/15 08:01 PM

OMG Lance! Those are very attractive. Mount one on a beer keg for work, and the other move from room to room in the house. How do they feel; support and comfort? (Don't tell us you haven't sat in them yet!). looking forward to the shots once mounted. Thanks.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 01/21/15 08:14 PM

They are a little tight in the shoulder bolsters for me, but I think I'll get used to them. Remember that I'm coming from a super comfy late model GTO seat. These bolsters push my shoulders forward just a bit but my arms still move freely around the outside of the seat.

Other than that, they fit like a glove. While being one piece seats, they are formed to hold your body in the perfect driving position. Hopefully I'll be able to get them mounted in a way to tilt me back the way I like while still letting me reach everything as I like with both my feet and my hands.

20.1#s each with the side brackets attached. The GTO seats were 65#s each.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/15 06:11 PM

"Put the coil under the dash" they said... "It's better for it and it'll last longer"

I guess "they" are all the ones with all of their AC and heat systems ripped out from under their dashes and have all sorts of room to mount the coils under the dash.

Me, not so much. This is about the best place I can come up with to mount it...



I'll have to fab up some sort of bracket off of that dash support area right above where the OBD1 port attaches and attach the coil bracket to it. I've already punch the hole in the firewall and put the pass thru for the coil wire on it.

Not much progress on anything else, came down with a killer cold that ruined any chance of progress this weekend.

We think we have a plan for mounting the seats, they'll fit great. The steering column showed up here today, it looks great...and Bob sent out my completely modified, tested and tuned Q-jet last Friday so it should be here on Wednesday.

Now, if I survive this cold...maybe we can make some progress soon...
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/15 09:18 PM

That's good to see you're back at it Lance.

That under the dash mounting job will make the coil last longer? I guess you really plan to keep that car some time huh? The 1974 trans am I have had the original coil mounted to the intake manifold for 39 years and it still worked fine. Even with all the heat from the monster 455. That is until I yanked in favor for the HEI. After my son left the key on and welded the points together while washing it. laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/15 09:32 PM

To be honest, I had just as much trouble finding a place out on the firewall to mount it... The oil filled ones have to be mounted vertical which limits things. I now have one of each, one that can be mounted in any position and the vertical only coil. I'm going to make this mount to hold it vertical just in case I ever need to change it out for the other.

Most of the last month or so has been planning and parts accumulation, things should go back together in a hurry once I get started.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/15 10:48 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
It's possible that maybe I'm a tad too excited about these...






How did I miss this? lmao


Those seats look killer!
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/09/15 11:43 PM

I can’t help but look and smile seeing you sitting in your new seat. You know what they say, if your going bear, go grizzly, none better . Good for you!!! You do us proud!!! beer
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/10/15 01:26 AM

The seat's heritage I think is really cool, the Mayhem Camaro.
http://ls1tech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/IMG_00092.jpg

The good thing about the seats is the 80 lbs you saved in the center of the car will be replaced with the cage in the rear section of the car, a nice tradeoff.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/15 03:46 PM

Took care of some little odds and ends this weekend, some had been needing attention for quite a while.

First up, ever since I switched to the Sick Speed Monte clutch pedal, I've had a gaping hole in my firewall...the initial hole for the John B pedal and then the adjustment to it for the Bernie Built pedal. I covered them up Sunday with a clutch rod boot that had been on my shelf for almost 2 years.



I then had to work on my pedals a bit. The powdercoat on the clutch pedal made it a bit sticky if the bolt was tightened down too tight, so by leaving the bolt a tad loose it let the brake pedal swing over and just kiss the clutch pedal sometimes if not pushed straight down. I shortened the head of the bolt that holds the clutch master rod to the pedal and then sanded on the clutch pedal swivel to make it fit the inner sleeve better allowing the bolt to be fully tightened down. This tightened up both the clutch and brake pedal and botho move smoothly now without touching each other. I then hung the pedals back in place.

Next up was the bracket to mount the coil. Wasn't a big deal and I think it turned out fine. No pics of it yet though. John also helped make up a couple of coil wires to help finish up the coil install before he started on the brackets to mount the new seats.

Packaging the seats in place is proving to be a challenge. We've got a good start on them and have a plan in place, we just need to raise the back mounts up an inch and then adjust everything once again for driver comfort. I'm super glad that I decided to have the tilt column rebuilt (which turned out beautiful BTW) as it looks like I'll need the steering wheel adjustability to get the driver comfort dialed in. Mainly I'm running out of room for my left elbow with the seat in "racing position". The side bolster of the seat and armrest on the door panel leave little room for my elbow so we had to raise the front of the seat bottom, tilting the seat back back...allowing my feet to be closer to the pedals but leaving more rooms for my arms to flail about during spirited driving. With the seat in this position, I have to tilt the wheel down for a comfortable grip and tilting it up for entering and exiting the seat will be necessary.

This is still a work in progress but at least I've sat in the seats bolted to the car and I know they fit within the area allowed. Fortunately the Recaro sliders allow for a TON of adjustability for and aft on both sides and we should be able to get things mounted in a permanent position on both sides that serves the intended purpose and will allow different size drivers and passengers to make themselves pretty comfortable.

Now I have to tackle the MSD box wiring once again to rearrange things since the coil was moved inside as well as bolt the carb back down and tidy up under the hood. I've ordered a new electric fan harness from Jabin to clean up that area as my homebuilt harness had some issues. Figured now is as good of a time to clean that up as well. Some other little odds and ends need accomplished as well, like making this throttle cable bracket play nice with my intake manifold.



Just little time consuming things... To be continued...
Posted By: oldtinsmith

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/16/15 11:34 PM

Lance, is there a hint of excitement for the up-coming race season in your posts? I really like reading your "build posts".
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/15 01:04 PM

I wish there was...hearing "fire in the hole" would go a long ways towards reviving that excitement...
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/15 01:19 PM

Looks great Lance. Did you make the bracket for the clutch rod boot?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/15 04:25 PM

No, I bought this boot and it came with the retaining ring. I just modified (bent) the ring to form to the floor and it worked out pretty well.

Clutch rod boot

Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/17/15 05:08 PM

Done, Thanks
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 12:25 AM

Pretty good progress today, lotta little things tidied up. Few questions though. Maybe someone can help?

I've got these three connectors in a harness coming from above the radio area with the other connectors that go onto the steering column...that I can't figure out where they go.



I'm afraid that they go to connectors up on the steering column that I forgot to connect before bolting it up.

I've removed the cruise module and harness from under the dash since I took this apart.

Here's the seats, sorry for the crappy pic.







I'm pretty happy with the location and fit so far. Still have room to tweak the position around a bit if needed, might tilt the driver's back a bit more...we'll see once I drive it.

Modified throttle cable bracket works...



Finish up the wiring under steering column and MSD box and put the passenger inner fender back in and should be close to test firing it.
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 01:50 AM

seats look good.....the blue and black ones close together go into the passenger side of the column. you should be able to get them without dropping the column. i could try looking up the other two tomorrow

oh, with the dakota gauge insert, do any of the lights above the rear defrost switch work?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 02:37 AM

Thanks, I'll look up there again tomorrow.

No, I think the 16 pin dash connector ran those and it's disconnected when the old cluster comes out. I've thought about rigging up a shift light or a low oil pressure light in those areas but haven't got around to it.
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 02:54 AM

I was thinking the same thing, a shift light
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 04:37 AM

Lance, I shipped your RamCharger dual speed fan harness as per your build request-I'll PM the tracking info!
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 08:40 AM

Man that is a good looking carb!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 05:42 PM

Pulled the column down again and got everything hooked up...I think. Couple loose ends but I think they are all cruise control related.

That is a beautiful carb isn't it Bradshaw. Can't wait to hear it fire up.

Will probably wait until the fan harness gets here then tackle what is left of the wiring all at once since it's all going to be in the same area. Then put the inner fender back in and battery and see if she fires up.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/22/15 09:44 PM

Looking good! Fixing all of those annoying little issues will make the car so much more enjoyable.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 03:11 AM

Originally Posted By: steve40
I was thinking the same thing, a shift light


I want to do the same thing. I think a module from dakota digital is needed?
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 01:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Onebadbowtie86
Originally Posted By: steve40
I was thinking the same thing, a shift light


I want to do the same thing. I think a module from dakota digital is needed?


No idea, I thought you could pull the signal from the output on the pcm.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 01:30 PM

There is a tach lead that comes from the distributor. I know you can get the RPM from the serial output of the ECM, but I'm not sure if there's a dedicated output pin. I can check my wiring diagram later.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 01:42 PM

The dakota digital dash module has a shift light output right on it if I recall correctly. I think you can hook a light to it, program the module at what RPM you want it set at and BOOM shift light...
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 02:33 PM

Guess I should read the book on them!
Onebadbowtie86, if the Dakota stuff doesn't work, I was looking at msd, they make a separate adapter that converts 12v into the signal the light needs
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 03:17 PM

The hardest part to me seemed like making some sort of bulb holder, light socket that will fit behind the dash face. I think Bob did something like this on his but don't remember exactly what he built to hold and operate the lights.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 05:23 PM

I have seen it but I can't remember either... I want to say he re-purposed one of the lights on the little info panel with the choke/brake/CEL/etc
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/23/15 05:53 PM

Yeah I agree...but for those of us that have switched to Dakota dashes that panel is gone now. It's all open back behind there now if I recall correctly.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/24/15 05:08 AM

Lance I sent you a couple pics of the sequential shift light and low oil pressure warning light mounted in the info panel. The top two slots are empty and can be repurposed for lights, just a not a lot room there without doing major surgery to the info panel. If you removed the alum bracket that holds the bulbs for the info panel you could gain depth.
You could just do away with the info panel, mount a nice piece of black plastic there, shift light, low oil pressure light, electric fan over ride switch/idiot light, brake light, and more could be placed there. You've kinda moved away from the stock interior look, something cool in the info panel area would be practical at this point.

There are not many sequential shift lights available, most are used in open wheel cars and 2 wheel rockets. The one I have is from the UK, doesn't appear to be available anymore, an Alpha unit. Here's another one from the UK.
http://www.cranston-racing.com/SequentialShiftLight.htm

Bob
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/24/15 06:34 AM

Lance....an option for ya to think about with your fans since we're on the topic of indicators here....the manual override switch you want to employ is wired in parallel with the temp switch trigger leads @ each respective relay so you can easily add (2) LEDs and send switched IGN power to one side of each of them, and on the other wires simply tie into the wiring on your 3-position toggle-this way the LED's will illuminate whenever low and then high speed is activated-whether automatically (as designed) or manually via your toggle.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/24/15 12:21 PM

That is a great and easily done idea Jabin, thanks...

Bob, just read your email and I remember now how involved that shift indicator project was. I guess I need to pull that info panel off and check out behind it. I was under the impression that it was all blank back there now, but last time I was in there was over two years ago and I've had a lot of stuff in and respectively back out of my memory bank since then.

I don't need a sequential shift light really, just an LED to light up at say 5500 RPM to let me know I'm close would be great. An LED for low oil pressure and one for low and high fan speeds would also be nice.
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/26/15 12:40 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Yeah I agree...but for those of us that have switched to Dakota dashes that panel is gone now. It's all open back behind there now if I recall correctly.


pretty open, figured i could shoot a pic while the dash is out.

Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 02/28/15 10:37 PM

Pretty good progress today...



Couple of connections to the battery, hook up the tach wire under the dash, then she should be ready to make heat...

I hate wiring, my hands are tore to pieces and my lower back is killing me from leaning over the fenders all day long. It all turned out pretty well though, sure hope it all doesn't burn down when I connect the battery. no
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/01/15 03:03 AM

Looks good Lance. What is to the left of the passenger side header?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/01/15 03:28 AM

Thanks...Are you talking about the reservoir for the Triple Adjustable shocks? Black cylinder with two aluminum brackets?
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/01/15 03:34 AM

Yes, got it.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/01/15 10:56 PM

It made heat!!!

Removed ECM, distributor, carburetor and all associated sensors and wiring...installed new MSD ignition box, MSD distributor, Innovate Air Fuel meter and a Bob Built carburetor...and rewired a TON of stuff under the hood and under the dash.

I poured some gas down the vent tube in the carb to help with startup, pumped the gas twice, turned the key and I swear...it fired on the very first revolution and jumped right to 1500 RPM high idle until it warmed up a bit.

Had a bit of a fuel leak at the carb so I shut it down to work on that. Every time after that it fired right back up and idled great. I need to learn how to time things a bit better with the ignition box, it is completely programmable box and I think you are supposed to phase the distributor in and then set the timing tables from there. I can barely move the distributor and it drastically changes where the idle timing is...but it's a PITA to see the timing mark on my engine. I'll get to that though...it's pretty damn good where it is right now considering everything I changed.

AFR bounces around 14.3 to 14.7 at idle once warmed up and jumps down to 10-12 under quick revs...and it never stumbled once. Granted no load on the engine but so far so good on the carb end.

The fans kick on when it gets to around 210 degrees or so and then kick back off after a minute or so of idling...they NEVER did that before. They also kick on when the AC is turned on.

Overall, I'm VERY happy...now I can settle down, schedule a trip to the cage builder, and work on fine tuning things a bit.

Here's a short crappy cell phone video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFYzo6YvAxQ
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/01/15 11:26 PM

looks and sounds great Lance.
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 12:11 AM

sounds great.....what kind of cage are you getting put in?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 02:29 AM

Just a 4 point bar, but built to SCCA specs... Thought I might add some sort of door bars but I don't think I have room for them unless they went below my arm rests and those might not be worth the effort...
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 02:49 AM

Great to hear Lance! Man, you really got to cracking getting it up and running! Sounds good!
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 02:58 AM

The nice thing about your 2-speed cooling fan system is you don't have to worry about the ecm running them, no aftermarket controllers to fail or change design every 2 years and/or go obsolete and the relays and temp switches can be found at any parts store should you ever have something fail-but those are GM style temp switches and Tyco relays rated @ 250,000 switching cycles at full 40A load, so in all reality your cooling system is as rock steady as you'll get. And running a 195 or so temp is the ideal temp to run at anyway-better fuel atomization and more consistent combustion chamber temps.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 03:22 AM

I liked to watch the fans cycle on and off a couple of times with the car sitting there idling. It NEVER did that before, the fans would come on, and the engine stayed right at 180*, but they never shut back off again.

I bet they didn't run for a minute at a time before shutting back down for 3-4 minutes before kicking on again.

High speed never kicked in...and I doubt it ever will. Maybe under extreme air temps and idling in traffic with air on. The idle speed would drop just a bit when the fans kicked on and then would catch right back up and stay where it was before.

Thanks again for building me a killer harness, wish I would have went that route years ago.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 06:29 AM

Don't pay to much attension to the A/F or carb set up until you get the timing curves dialed in, timing effect engine vac, effects A/F, they all go hand in hand. You should have somewhere in the neighborhood of 38 degrees total at idle. Once timing is setup then play with idle mixture to get a 13.8-14.0 steady idle A/F. Also be aware that the idle rpm may vary as the electric fans turn on and off due to the load on the alternator.

Happy that it fired right up!!!!!! Always nice when the fruits of the labor is the big grin.

Any questions on carb setup just give me a call.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 12:29 PM

Thanks Bob...I was super stoked when it fired up. Car sounds like it has more pop...it's hard to describe...but it does sound different. Can't wait to feel it with a load on it.

38 degrees? Really?

I was surprised at how little I had to move the distributor and the large amount it moved the timing marks. It's hard by yourself. I have to kneel on the radiator support, one hand on a valve cover and the other holding the timing light to see the timing marks. No extra hands to blip the throttle or move the distributor to see the changes. I need a helping hand to do this better. I'm also going to pick up a vacuum gauge today.

Do you always wait 30 seconds after turning the key on for the LM1 to warm the O2 sensor up before starting your car? Instructions say to do so if I read them correctly. I'm trying to decide if I'm going to permanently install the LM1 and deal with that or just get it set to use as a tuning tool then remove the O2 sensor once it's tuned.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 07:35 PM

My LM1 is wired permanently, it's slid under the passenger seat. that way if I need to change the 9vdc battery, or verify the gauge is reading the same as the LM1 it's easy. With an anolog gauge mounted on the steering column I can always monitor the A/F, kinda helps to keep your foot out of the throttle.

You'll find it takes longer than 30 seconds for the LM1 to finish warming up. I leave the slide switch on the LM1 on all the time, just throw a new battery in periodically. Yes I have a tendency on cold starts to wait until the warm up is close to 70%, but on hot restarts I don't wait. The Bosch O2s are pricey, about 75 bucks, I'm on my third one in 6 years, I consider them a consumable.

On my engine I run 17 initial 20 vac advance at idle. Just for FYI the CCC at idle has about 50 degrees timing. My guess is with the new MSD setup you're looking for somewhere in the area of 32-37 at idle. Because you are using a Vac sensor to simulate the vac advance to the MSD you will have to play around until you find that sweet spot where throttle responce, cruise MPG and lack of knock are good.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/02/15 09:55 PM

I've got the MAP sensor hooked up but I haven't programmed in any vac advance curves to the MSD yet. I don't understand vacuum advance all that well yet. Seems confusing to me that you want the timing that advanced at idle or cruise RPMs. I need some 'splaining on that part in laymens terms I guess.

I don't really care about cruise MPG, more concerned about as much power as I can get out of it without detonation...ever.

So if the CCC had 50 degrees timing at idle, what did it do, drop down to 8 degrees under initial load and then advance back up to 32ish at cruise to WOT situations?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/03/15 12:05 AM

Here's a couple pieces of info on vac advance and ignition timing.

http://www.nastyz28.com/~ericf/tech/vacadvance.pdf

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=109132

Many years ago when I was playing with the CCC is when I saw about 50 degrees at idle, thought WOW, something wrong here, no, just the way you maximize idle quality and very light throttle engine performance. Today's cars with high speed processors and elaborate "maps" adjust and tweek timing in micro-seconds using an array of sensors.

Now we just back a couple decades and put in a distributor with mechanical centrifugal advance, vac advance, and god forbid a set of points, old school. Every engine back then had a particular "program" installed from the factory. In the Autospeed article above is just a partial listing of the HEI vac advances used back then.

Confusing yes, but when you put the timing setup back to "old school" you need to find what makes your engine happy. Today everything has a knock retard feature, makes it easy to dump max timing in, the ECM will pull out timing if the engine knocks.
Every engine combo may have different timing requirements, just need to do a basic setup and see how your engine likes it.

On my engine I run 17 initial, 20 vac advance at idle, 19 centrifugal starting at about 850 rpm, all in by 2800. The vac advance at idle is about 20 degrees with 16" of vac, that reduces to zero at about 8" of vac. The vac advance application is linear and it's advance decreases as engine vac goes down. That way the vac advance is "off" when engine load is increased as the power circuit in the carb is applied.

Starting to confuse myself.
I would think you need to start with initial in the 10 degree range with you engine, advance starting about 850, with 25 degrees added linearally until about 3000, total advance of 35 at WOT. For vac input on the MSD, put 20 at idle, all out by 10" of vac to start, make it linier. From there you will need to tweak, idle quality, seat of the pants and knock will be your guide. A trip to the dyno is always good for a WOT setup.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/04/15 04:28 PM

Sometimes you have to take a step backward in order to make another step forward...

Ready to go see the cage builder...





Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/07/15 09:32 PM

I never really paid much attention to the tach when making spirited runs since the engine was so slow to accelerate from 4000-6000 RPM... Now I must pay much closer attention... laugh

This morning I tidying up a few more things under the hood, marked the balancer and timing tab better and set the distributor at 32 degrees advanced and locked it down. I then hooked the vacuum gauge and laptop up and started messing with the timing retard curve. I was able to get it pretty dialed in I believe for now. I have to say, being able to grab a dot with my mouse, drag it across the screen and watch the engine change idle to the new setting is pretty effing cool. With it at 7 degrees advance, it idles at about 850 RPM and pulls 20 inches of vacuum.





The timing advance makes a linear line from 1000 RPM to 3000 RPM, 7 degrees at 1,000 to 32 degrees at 3,000 RPM. I believe it would like a little more timing as I could not get it to ping anywhere, anyhow during my test runs. My issue is, it appears that the box won't accept a timing retard curve of more than 25 degrees and I think it would like just a little bit less timing at idle. It's pretty dang good like it is though.

The carb is nuts on, Bob did a FANTASTIC job setting it up and dialing it in. I haven't touched a screw on it and it drives out perfectly. No nozzle drip, idles perfect, not a hint of a stumble anywhere, it just flat out runs.

I've taken the wideband back off for now because I haven't hard wired it in yet and I don't want the guys at the fab shop to worry about waiting for the O2 sensor to warm up each time they move the car around. Once I get it back I'll put the wideband back in and finish fine tuning both the carb and the timing, but it's plenty driveable as it sits now. Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n7x4t6DpFc

I tilted the driver seat back one more notch and I like it. I think before I was trying to force myself back into the seat too much, if I just sit in it naturally, it feels pretty dang good. Even works real good with my factory 3 point belt.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/07/15 09:49 PM

Thanks for the phone link. Cool!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/07/15 10:12 PM

Figured you'd enjoy that.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/07/15 11:59 PM

Sounds good! Looks like it pulls pretty hard too.

I bet this plants the EFI seed in your head wink
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/08/15 06:18 AM

Always nice when a plan comes together. Really glad a smile was on your face. Hopefully the cage guy gets you in this week. Final tuning happens over a period of time, having an A/F on a carb just makes tuning so much easier, even though seat of the pants is still king.

Nice video by the way.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/08/15 01:18 PM

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Sounds good! Looks like it pulls pretty hard too.

I bet this plants the EFI seed in your head wink


Actually, it confirms to me that I made the right choice going this route over EFI... This car runs well enough I'd have no trouble letting my wife drive it on a daily basis. Well, maybe after I put the interior back in it. Was pretty racecarish feeling yesterday.



It pulls REAL hard...I can't wait to strap it down to the dyno once again. The top end feels MUCH different than before.
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/08/15 01:38 PM

I like! Question about the cage-what kind of certification are you having the cage built to in terms of 1/4-mile time? The reason I ask is because your interior looks so nice I'm wondering how your cage will interfere @ your kicks, through the package tray, etc. I assume it'll be a chrome-moly tig job?

Is your battery relocated to the trunk and are there drag strip plans for the car? Driveshaft safety loop? Battery cut-off?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/08/15 02:03 PM

I should probably word it differently to avoid confusion, I'm only putting in a 4 point roll bar, not a full cage. It'll be 1.75" chromoly, the main bar will start at plates welded to the floor brace near the bottom of the B pillar and have a one piece diagonal bar through it and the harness bar will intersect with it horizontally. The down bars to the rear will be straight (stronger) and go from the top of the main bar down through the seat back area and land on the floor brace above the rear axle.

It will be enough to let me run at any track day, PDX, or time trial on any road course. Basically everything except actual door to door racing.

I'm not sure about drag racing rules, I have no desire to lean that way with this car and even if I did I doubt it would be fast enough to get it into a bracket that requires a roll bar. My battery is in stock location with no cut off and I do have a driveshaft loop.
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/08/15 02:27 PM

Ok, cool. I wasn't sure if you might be planning a dual purpose kind of car or not-nothing wrong with walking light but carrying a big stick!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/08/15 02:35 PM

It's a dual purpose car...it's an autocross and road course warrior that doubles as a street car still!! laugh

BTW, I tested it yesterday, when the fans are on low speed via the temp switch, raising the 3 position switch puts them on high speed and lowering the switch does nothing...so it works as you described. I can't believe how much better the fans work with your harness than mine. I took it out and beat on it yesterday afternoon for a short stint and then when I pulled it right back into the shop, the fans weren't even running. They cycle on for about a minute and then right off again.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/08/15 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
It's a dual purpose car...it's an autocross and road course warrior that doubles as a street car still!! laugh


Hmmm...... I wish my wife would understand that! I got a ear full last night because I slipped and said I cant wait to race the car. She now is trying too cut into my car funds with her wants! I made her a promise years ago that I would stop building race cars. So I think I somewhat kept my promise. dunno

I just watched the video the car does sound good.

So by the seat of the pants do you feel a substantial gain in HP?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/15 01:08 AM

Well, the roll bar builder put me off until this coming weekend, and then informed me that it'll take him up to two weeks to get it done once he starts on it...so I rearranged some things and got back onto tuning a bit more on the car.

I won't bore everyone with everything I've been through, but lets just say I now understand, timing advance, vacuum advance, and air fuel ratios MUCH better now and the car is working fantastic. Every change I've made to the car has only improved it more.

It's now idling at 9* advance and has a steady curve up until a total of 34* at 2800 RPM. The idle air bleeds in the carb are a little large so it's idling at 950 RPM which doesn't really affect anything although I'd like it to idle slower. Bob will fix that up as soon as I get a chance to ship the carb back to him for some fine tuning. For now though, it's golden. Air fuels are low to high 14s at cruise and idle and high 11s to low 12s at WOT. I really think it'll take even more timing as I have yet to hear it ping.

The power increase it has over before is tremendous, especially between 3000-6000 RPM and the driveability hasn't been affected whatsoever. I wouldn't be afraid to let my wife get in it and drive it anywhere.

Being able to time and tune it by watching gauges and computers and making adjustments with a flick of the mouse is COOL! When the car had a stumble at low RPM cruise, one glance at the AFR and vacuum gauge told me it was loading up with fuel. Adding just a bit of timing at that RPM range cleared it right up.

Again, I gotta thank Bob not only for his help building the carb for me but also for his help in making me understand what the hell was going on and how to make things better. Huge kudos Bob...Thanks...

Can't wait to get this thing back on a dyno now to see just how much more it makes.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/15 01:34 AM

beer
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/15 02:28 AM

That's some cool stuff there.

Bob is really knowing his stuff and a great guy helping others out. Helped me out quiet a bit with my T56 swap answering everything I was worried about.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/15 12:14 PM

Bob really is a treasure trove of knowledge for these cars.

Lance, don't be afraid to drop some knowledge on us! I know I could learn a thing or five in regards to timing.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/15 03:32 PM

I'm working on it... Right now I'm exporting and getting ready to upload a video of my vacuum gauge, air fuel meter, and MSD ign box data from my commute to work this morning. laugh

It will bore some to tears, others will watch them all work together in harmony to create a fantastic running air pump that powers my car down the road.

I have to say though, the few WOT blasts near the end are disappointing...WAY too many things going on at once and things don't stay in place as they should under such hard acceleration...

laugh
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/15 04:51 PM

Lance post up a video of the wide open blasts. Surly you must most have captured all that power in the last vid. I'm sure with all that high end power on tap the car must incinerate those tires into 3rd gear. I'm expecting to see on a good 15 MPH roll tire carnage even with cold track tires.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/13/15 05:49 PM

My WOT blasts on the video this morning were captured in town...so they were basically just in one gear and very short. They are interesting though as you'll see the tach wind up very quickly to just over 4000 and then level off for a second before starting to gain again. I'm assuming it leveled off when the tires finally caught traction once again. laugh

I'll need a few more tests to verify this is what is actually happening though. wink

Trying to set up time to get it on a dyno soon...
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/14/15 07:07 AM

"Trying to set up time to get it on a dyno soon..."


Here let me fix this line for you.

"Tying to set up some time to make Bradsahw's car awesome too"
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/15 01:56 PM

It's the little truck engine that defies Hot Rodding logic...but I like it!! laugh

I strapped Barney to a chassis dyno once again yesterday and made some pulls to test and verify that the changes I made this winter helped...and I'm happy to report that they did. The peak HP and Torque numbers didn't change that much since the last time I had it on the dyno 2 years ago, I lost a couple of peak Ft Lbs and gained about 15 peak HP. The big difference though is between 4000-5000 RPM I picked up around 25 HP and around 15 Ft Lbs and the overall Torque and HP curves are much flatter and more consistent completely across the board. This backs up what my butt dyno had been feeling since the upgrades.

To catch everyone up, what I changed to accomplish this was pull the 30 year old carb, distributor and CCC ECM from the car and replaced them with a mechanical Q-jet, MSD Billet Distributor and a MSD 6AL Programmable ignition box. The new parts help feed and spark it better on the top end which is an area it sorely needed help in.

What was interesting to me was the timing changes we made during the 6 pulls. We started out with the total timing at 34* all in at 2800 RPMs. We made 2 pulls and liked what we saw, there was no pinging and the engine pulled strong all the way to 5500 RPM. Just to see what would happen, I took 1 degree of timing out...and it picked up about 5 HP across the board!! So I took another degree of timing out (now at 32*) and made another pull...this time it picked up another 2-3 HP across the board. What the heck, lets try one more...put it at 31* still all in at 2800 RPM and it picked up another 1-2 HP once again across the board. Air Fuels were steady at 11.75-12.25 all the way through every pull. We left it there at 31*. That's where it made the most power but more importantly, it's a very happy engine there...and safe.

We made 6 pulls within a half hour stopping only to examine the chart and adjust the timing between each pull and the engine never got hot enough to kick the electric fans on (we did have the floor fan pushing air into the front of the car). What I have here is a rock solid stump pulling engine that puts 300 HP and 400 Ft Lbs to the rear tires just about across the board that is very comfortable in daily driving situations and can light the tires up at will or run great times on course...without skipping a beat or getting hot. I love it.

The dyno printer was malfunctioning so I didn't get an official printout of the graph, so I took some pictures of it with my phone. This picture shows the whole screen but has flash glare right in the center of it. The blue line was the best pull from 2 years ago and the red line is the best pull from yesterday.



This one shows the curves a bit better



Here's a video of the last pull of the day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Cdbdeoaf0

I the left the shop and took the car to the fab shop to let them get started on the roll bar installation. Hopefully in a week or so I'll get it back and can start putting the interior back in the car again to get it ready for our first event April 11th...
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/15 02:57 PM

Yup that's a truck engine running just the way it should. Lower HP to torque ratio torque ratio. That's not a bad little engine for low end torque. Shift that guy at 4800 or a tad higher and it will move a heavy load quiet well.... laugh wink
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/15 03:12 PM

On our typical autocross runs on the short course, it turns between 3000 to 5000 RPM in 2nd gear, over and over and over again...max I've seen on the gauge recall is 5600 RPM.

Perfect for this little beast...

On the bigger courses there is more time spent between 4500 and 6000 RPM still in 2nd gear. This is where I was getting beat last year, and where I should be better this year with the new upgrades.

I still have a set of 1.6:1 rockers to throw at it as well when I get time. Hopefully get 15-20 more HP out of them across the board.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/15 03:50 PM

I have thought on this for a while. I'm setting my car up for a road course only. I won't run any parking lot autocross courses. My rush comes from high RPM pulls with speed. I'm sure the boys will run the smaller tracks with it while they get the feel?

Seeing Bowling green is only a 45 minute drive. The car will be on that track often next summer for practice.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/15 04:50 PM

They just had a big event at Bowling Green last weekend. The Kentucky Region of the SCCA does a great job with their events.

Here is Bret Voekel of Ridetech on their autox course last weekend with his brand new Z06.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0Z2xtlOXNA

The yellow Vette in front of him is the 48 hour Corvette they just finished building with Chris Smith driving it.

Don't knock autocross too much until you try it a time or two. It's when done properly, it's every bit the thrill high speed road courses are. In fact, I'll say this, it takes more skill and driving ability to autocross fast than it does to road course race any day of the week and it's pretty exciting when you put the nearly perfect lap down on your parking lot full of cones. wink

Also if you are setting your car up for road course runs only...you might as well start planning the roll bar, seats and harnesses now. They are a must for high speed road course action in my opinion.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/19/15 07:33 PM

I plan to cage the car but first I need to get it running.

I don't knock the small auto cross stuff it just don't do much for me. I like fender to fender competition. Something to drive me other than a stop watch. As fare as being a skilled driver. I'm a quiet a bit past my prime. laugh So I would expect most anyone in their youth to be better than me. That's what I have the two boys for. They have the fight and ambition to compete heavily. I'll do the dirty work and build a car that works. wink
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/21/15 03:53 AM

It was good to see your butt didn't lie to you, seat of the pants can tell you a lot. Picking up 25 hp was nice to see, and it makes a little more power all the way up. Would have been good to see if you lean the secondaries a little if it would make more power, maybe 12.75.

Hopefully the bar will get done quickly and you can go play again.

Watched the Vette video a couple times, looks like a fun car to drive. Gotta find one of those girls that giggle next time I run.
Bob
Posted By: steve40

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/21/15 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Later on after I've driven with the wheels and got them dirty a few times I'll revisit and update with how they have held up. I think it's gonna be good though, it HAS to be better than maintaining just the bare billet aluminum.


how has the sealer held up on the wheels?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/21/15 11:45 PM

Pretty well actually. I abused them last June, got them very dirty with brake dust then ran an autocross school in the rain and let the gunk sit on them for a week before cleaning them.

The shine took a bit of a beating with that but there still isn't ANY water spots on them which I really like. They got REAL dirty driving around on Wednesday in the rain and gunk and are now sitting at the fab shop and probably be a week or so before I get it back. I'll take them off, snap some pics and then give them a good cleaning and report back.

I'd certainly do it again though. so much easier than caring for bare billet wheels and they still look pretty good.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/22/15 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
It was good to see your butt didn't lie to you, seat of the pants can tell you a lot. Picking up 25 hp was nice to see, and it makes a little more power all the way up. Would have been good to see if you lean the secondaries a little if it would make more power, maybe 12.75.

Hopefully the bar will get done quickly and you can go play again.

Watched the Vette video a couple times, looks like a fun car to drive. Gotta find one of those girls that giggle next time I run.
Bob



What would I need in order to lean the secondaries out a tad? Different hanger?

I showed my business partner the Vette Youtube as he's looking for a C7 Z06 now. He said that he thought he giggled more during the ride in my car than that girl did with Bret, and asked if he bought a C7 Z06, would I drive it?

lol... Hell Yeah!!!!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/22/15 02:56 PM

The secondary rods in the carb are the ones Ruggles "machined" for you, they are stamped DR but tips are cut. Mike the tip of the rod, my notes say it was a .047", and I'll see what I have for a slightly leaner rod. The hanger is an "L", changing hangers just lowers or raises the rod in the jet, the effect of different hanger length is to "time" when the rods lift in realtion to the throttle opening. So a "short" hanger will cause the rods to get to the small OD of the rod sooner, but at WOT as long as the air valve is full open the rod will be on the small OD of the rod.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/23/15 02:50 AM

Here's what I don't understand... When those rods were in my CCC q-jet, it ran in the 14s at WOT which was almost dangerously lean...what's different with those rods in this carb that let it run on the rich side?

BTW, I'm alright with it being a tad rich...I don't mind trying to lean it out a bit but it is not way up on the top of my list of things to do.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/30/15 04:55 PM

Car is back home from the fab shop, now it's just a mad thrash to get things tidied up and back together before my first event April 11-12th. Will post pics once I get it presentable again...I'm happy though. smile
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 03/31/15 05:23 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSqcxFGFVas
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/05/15 03:33 AM

Originally Posted By: steve40
Originally Posted By: SSLance
Later on after I've driven with the wheels and got them dirty a few times I'll revisit and update with how they have held up. I think it's gonna be good though, it HAS to be better than maintaining just the bare billet aluminum.


how has the sealer held up on the wheels?


A year with over 4,000 street miles, several races and road trips in heavy rain, even a day on wet roads with salt residue on them...and the only maintenance has been the occasional rinse off at the car wash and wipe down with a microfiber towel.












They aren't perfect...they've got some crust in the nooks and crannies and some surface scratches in them...but ZERO water spots and still look pretty damn good considering the abuse I put them through in the last year. Yes...I'd use ShineSeal again on any billet rims I own.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/05/15 11:30 PM

While I'm certain there are pro-touring or street cars out there on the road with roll bars or cages that are more significant than this one turned out, I'm also certain that there are cars out on the road and track today with roll bars\cages that are not as safe and secure as this one turned out. There are also other cars out there that are doing track days and such that probably should have a roll bar or cage in them...but don't because the owners don't want to make the changes necessary to put a safety device such as this in their street car. I respect all of those owners decisions...it isn't easy making a modification this drastic to ones car. In fact, I had planned this whole thing out...and then promptly bailed...deciding to not make the change myself. I then stumbled on a great deal on the seats you see here...and it was on again.

This is a 1.75" dia, 0.120" wall 4 point roll bar with a diagonal cross bar and a harness bar. The feet of the main hoop are welded to plates that are welded to the floor of the car directly above a structural floor brace that is also right above where the #4 body mounts connect the frame to the body.

Here is one of the main hoop base plates



and in this picture you can see where the welding burnt through the paint on the bottom side of the floor in front of the brace. This shows the location of the base plate directly over the body mount area.



The down bars are straight and go back to the rear seat back area where they are welded to plates that are welded to the body structure directly in front of the #5 body mount. It's harder to get clear pictures here, but the body structure behind the plates is where the trunk floor meets the seat back brace and is directly over the frame just in front of the body mount.

Here is the base plate



And it this picture from the inner fenderwell you can see where the weld burnt through the paint not only on the fender well but also the bottom of the body just in front of the mount.



These cars are built with the body being the main support for the somewhat flimsy frames, not a whole lot different than a typical unibody car. What this bar does is just strengthen that unibody significantly while providing rollover protection as well as a proper shoulder harness mounting location. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

Here are some pictures of the inside. My good friend John bent up some sheet metal based on some cardboard templates I gave him to build a package tray with. This picture shows them in place. I'll eventually have matching carpet that will go from the rear speaker tray down to the floor finishing this area out nicely.







And also a few with the seats reinstalled once again





Just got the interior all buttoned back in place a few hours ago. I'm having some packaging issues getting the 5 point harnesses mounted the way I want...but there is now a plan in place and that still might happen before my two autocross events next weekend. If not, the factory 3 point belt actually fits me very well in these seats.

BTW, I've really grown to liking these seats. You fall down into them and don't move once there and they are very ergonomically correct which makes them very comfortable for a one piece fiberglass seat without a ton of padding. Eventually I'll look into getting them recovered a burgundy color but they'll do like this for now. Now, crawling back out of them, that's another story... laugh I need a grab bar or something to help pull me back out of them when exiting the car.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 02:56 PM

It's funny...this whole interior re-work project was done basically so I could run 5 point harnesses... New seats, new roll bar, everything...and the last thing that is going in is finally in...the harnesses.



I ordered some Flanged Alloy Socket Cap Screws, M12 Size, 50MM Length, 1.75MM Pitch and some Nylon-Insert Nonmarring Flange Locknut, Zinc-Plated Class 8 Steel, M12X1.75 Thread Size nuts and was able to use them to fasten the new lap belt brackets and the factory seat belt brackets to the factory holes in the floor. The bolts were long enough that I was able to put the lock nuts on the back side of them to prevent any loosening and give an extra sense of security for the driver. The hole in the lap belt brackets was just big enough to let the bracket swivel on the bolt to desired proper angle.

This is the driver side rocker panel attachment of the harness lap belt outside the carpet and the factory belt bracket under the carpet.





Bad picture but here is the trans tunnel attachment, you can't see the factory belt because it's behind the black harness lap belt.



And the shoulder belt attachment points.



One of the brackets I needed for the submarine belt is on backorder so I haven't installed them yet. I can see the need for them though as I noticed when I was sitting in the seat and pulling the shoulder belts tight, the lap belt pulled up from across my hips into my abdomen. I'll get those in when the bracket gets here...shouldn't be a big deal.

Can't wait to see how the new belts and seats hold me in position better when out on course...this Saturday!!!
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 03:00 PM

This Saturday? I'd be screwed if my region started this Saturday.

As is I'm in rough shape for getting ONE of my cars ready for the first event on the 19th.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 03:04 PM

Yep, Test n Tune on Saturday the 11th, Event 1 Sunday the 12th...

I'm not ready...but I'll be there. Still have last year's oil in the car and should probably flush the brake fluid...but not sure I'll get that done before Friday night...especially since Friday night I'll be scrambling to find all of my autocross day supplies I haphazardly laid about after our last event last fall... laugh
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 04:49 PM

What are you running for brake fluid? Anything special or just over the counter stuff?
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 04:50 PM

Nice clean install Lance! laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: SS Ninja
What are you running for brake fluid? Anything special or just over the counter stuff?


I ran Motul 600 for a couple of years...I think it's got over the counter stuff in it now that I flushed into the system last spring with my brake upgrade. Can't remember...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 06:14 PM

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Nice clean install Lance! laugh


Thanks... Quite the departure for me...it's growing on me slowly... laugh
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/08/15 10:58 PM

That's not too bad Lance. A cage is a hard one to settle into on a clean car.

I would personally look to re install the rear seat. Also I would drop the rear supports through the package tray. And then paint it a deep metallic burgundy. But I need to finish my other stuff before I bite off anymore... laugh
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/09/15 01:46 AM

The issue with dropping the rear bars through the package tray was you have to bend them to do so...which makes them not as strong...

Also, this bar was fit and tacked together inside the car, then pulled out and completely welded (and painted) then put back in the car in one piece. Not sure that could be done with down bars through the package tray.

Lotsa issues packaging a deal like this into a nicely finished existing interior.

I just put my new Ram mount on the harness bar and put my new Garmin Virb camera on it and it is going to be a great place to take video from... Just another plus to having a bar in the car.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/15 04:11 PM

And the payoff videos...

Here's my best run from yesterday taken from the GoPro behind the seats.

https://youtu.be/RAnkLxtYnEY

And here's the same run showing how well the new Recaro seats and Simpson belts are holding the driver in place.

https://youtu.be/hv8UEoCxpgY

Had a great weekend, car did great, driver did okay once the rust was shook off... Had a half second lead in class through 4 runs and on the 5th run Patrick picked up 7 tenths which is huge and clipped me by a tenth for the win.

We were about a tenth apart on Saturday for the test n tune as well. So much fun racing with someone right at the same speed you are...had a blast.
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/15 09:01 PM

Lookin' pretty good Lance !!
Guy
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/15 09:02 PM

Once you have better seats in it makes you realize what a POS the original ones are...
Guy
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/13/15 09:50 PM

Wow, great clips, compared to earlier videos, it looks much calmer in the cabin, some older videos you could see the driver/passenger bouncing around a lot harder.
I bet the support makes it less work to stay in the seat and focus on the driving.
driving
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/15 02:04 AM

The car sounds pretty good Lance. You definitely look more stable in the car with those new seats.

You heading to Vegas this month?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/15 02:35 AM

WHAT, no horn??????????

A little wet out there was it, saw some pics on the KCRSCCA forum, couple splash downs.

Car looked good, steering column looked good, seats looked good, must be nice to be glued to the seats. Watched the videos numerous times, I need to take notes from you.

The course sure looks like a nice place to run, something I would enjoy. Sun is my first autox this year at Maple Grove Raceway, nothing like your place, they run it in the paddock area, lots of off camber turns. Last Fall they had two 90s, a R, then L, back to back, even the Miatas had trouble making it through clean.

Looked at the results for your Sun event, interesting, lots of CAM cars, no SM to speak of.
Question, I can't figure out how they score the Novice class.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/15 12:02 PM

Thanks everyone. I can't say that I actually noticed that I was glued down in the seat...it was more like I did not notice having to hold myself into the seat anymore...one less thing to think about or deal with while driving.

Bob, about the Novice scoring...hell I never figured it out either. They give a special real heavy duty PAX index to anyone with an N indication and the novices only run against the other novices...not in their own class. I never did it as there were no other novices when I was one. Our region had a great novice class last year though and those guys ran their butts off against one another all year long. It was fun to watch.

Have fun next weekend...we still aren't sure when our next event is. Waiting to find out if we can run at Heartland Park on the 25-26th or not still.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/14/15 05:59 PM

Sunday's Event 1 raw time results

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event1_raw.htm

And by class showing each individual run time

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event1_fin.htm
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/17/15 03:19 AM

Looking good Lance. Give me a call or PM when you are ready for me to show you haw to drive it! J/K ALso have a AutoX ?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 04/22/15 08:03 PM

Okay, lets hope these do the trick...







They aren't exactly as I pictured them to be in my mind...but I think they should just slide into place exactly as the radial bearings did. We'll find out tonight. I'm glad to see the Timken stamp on them for sure.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/03/15 08:02 PM

5 point harnesses... #becauseracecar




Carpet... #becausestreetcar



Even fixed the horn button too.

I'm calling my offseason projects complete, and successful.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/04/15 12:09 PM

Cool. Ready for another blackgoldaero
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/14/15 06:21 PM

Great Googly Moogly....

Look at this!! Barney's new front sway bar.



That's a 1.5" diameter, 0.375" wall center piece for my Ridetech front MuscleBar.



Ain't she a beaut?



Now I have a dilemma though. I have a big event in 3 weeks...USCA at National Corvette Museum...and not a lot of time to prepare for it.

Last fall I swapped the last big sway bar upgrade in the car right before heading to the SCCA Solo Nationals and I swore I'd never make any big changes to the car right before a big event again.

Now, just how bad did I swear? laugh
Posted By: mainer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/15/15 04:13 AM

WOW that's a beast of a bar
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/15/15 04:53 AM

I was going to say throw the big dog in and take it for a run but have been was watching the weather out that way, looks really wet.

Man that bar puts a new spin on the "big bar school". Have seen rear bars that strong, can't say that for front, looks like something NASCAR would run. Any idea what the rate is ? Somewhere I have a bar rate calculator and rate guesstimates for the common front and rear bars.

Your bar would be simple, just need to know the ID, OD, length, type of steel for the bar. The effective length of the side bars. The arms on the factory bars make getting good rate numbers more difficult.

The only thing I dislike about big bars is braking on very uneven roads, not so much the tramming, fat tires do that. The big ripples at high traffic intersections, the ones the big rigs chatter across when they hit the brakes. Those are the ones big sways bars don't like.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/15/15 11:55 AM

The big bar\soft spring setup revolves around making the car work the inside front tire more in a turn. The matching of the front and rear roll stiffness is necessary to get the car to roll diagonally the proper amount to still plant the inside front tire while releasing the inside rear tire just the right amount. If the rear roll stiffness is too soft, the rear will roll more than the front which will release the inside front tire first and create havoc.

Ron calculated that I need to increase the rear spring rate from the 200s in there now to 250#...which I have here in stock...and that is an easy swap. IF...that is correct is the only question. Only way to tell for sure is to test on an autoccross course and I won't have time to do that before leaving either.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a touch concerned about this bar pulling the bolts out of the frame up front. As everyone knows, the frame is only .120 thick with m10 bolts threaded into one layer of it. The Ridetech mounts use the two factory sway bar mount holes and you then drill and tap a third hole a bit further up for the part that goes over the bar. When I put the first Ridetech bar in, I popped the threads out of one hole in the frame on the passenger side when tightened the bolts up. I was lucky as I could get a nut on the back side and used that to secure the mount. The ones on the driver side are completely boxed in, no way to get a nut on the backside of the frame there. Only fix is to weld a new nut into the frame.

If the same thing happened during the install of this new bar, or worse yet...during the event...I'd be screwed. It's not something I can't fix, but it's not something I want to be thrashing to fix so soon before or worse during the event.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/15/15 12:09 PM

Lance, take it from me: Don't chance it.

Run the proven setup you have now and enjoy the event. All the shiny parts in the world don't matter if your car can't even get off the trailer. smile
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/15/15 05:57 PM

I'm with you Dave... My thoughts exactly.

But I'm enjoying all of the egging on I'm getting from others that want me to thrash to get the new parts installed beforehand. laugh

Is Bangshift sending you to Bowling Green to cover this event by chance? **whistling**
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/17/15 02:10 AM

That bar is quiet thick. I would insert a .250" flat plate in the frame rail with the M10 hole pattern pre drilled and threaded.
Posted By: mainer

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/15 12:01 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
That bar is quiet thick. I would insert a .250" flat plate in the frame rail with the M10 hole pattern pre drilled and threaded.

I think your right on there , something is going to need to be done to keep it from pulling out of the frame , only I think I would go the plate a weld nuts to it for threads so it gets a good 3/4" of threads to hold on to , not that 1/4 wouldn't do it but there would be less stress on each thread with more to hold .
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/18/15 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance


Is Bangshift sending you to Bowling Green to cover this event by chance? **whistling**


I wish! Chad should be there, but unless something changes in the new few weeks, I won't be...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/26/15 12:10 AM

So with a big track day coming up, I took this weekend to tidy up some loose ends. First job was to replace the rear hard brake lines on the axle. My old ones had had the exhaust dropped on them a few too many times.





Think this will make a difference in brake performance?



I then flushed the old DOT3 out and replaced it with fresh Motul 600 and bled the brakes (with the wife's help).

Today I tidied up the trunk area a bit and then snugged the body bolts back up. 5-6 of them were a 1/2-3/4s turn loose.

As i was putting the rear tires back on I looked at the lug nuts and said to myself "Self, you really should replace those, they are looking kind of ragged" and then I promptly pulled the threads out of when when snugging it down.

Lugnuts are a wear item and after 250 or so torques tight (some of take our wheels off A LOT), they probably should be replaced.

Anyway, feel a lot better about the car being ready for the USCA at NCM. Now it just needs a good cleaning and some TLC in some details areas for some extry points in the D&E portion.

Oh...and I did NOT put the new sway bar in... Much as I would like to, I just can't chance an issue with it before the trip. We have a party at our house this Saturday and a local race on Sunday...then just a few days before we leave for Kentucky. No extra time to deal with issues or incidentals...
Posted By: Eric'sMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/26/15 04:57 AM

check the studs..
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/26/15 08:14 AM

Gee Lance,you had that brake line squished down pretty good.
I think that a new one should make a difference,although it might not be noticeable.
Good catch on those lug nuts,as was already mentioned,you may want to check or replace the studs.
Guy
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/26/15 11:41 AM

The studs are brand new as I just replaced the axles less than a month ago, but I'll give them the once over as well. That was my first thought, that the stud was spinning in the axle flange.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/28/15 02:04 PM

Have a great race. Let us know how it went!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/28/15 07:39 PM

Thanks...will do. TIme is getting short. Local race here this Sunday then leaving for Kentucky next Thursday.

New decals for this year are done, just need to get them put on. Plus it feels like the brakes need bled one more time...
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/29/15 02:43 PM

Wow that brake line! Did you ever notice them sticking with that?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/29/15 05:11 PM

Naw, worked perfectly... Road tested last night after bleeding the brakes once again and they feel just like they felt before.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/30/15 02:19 AM

Next weekend is coming fast. I will be working one day on the event for Larry. Not too sure where he puts me yet??
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/30/15 11:41 AM

SWEET!! Finally get to meet you in person...
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 05/31/15 01:51 AM

I look forward to meeting you to Lance.

The new track is awesome I'm really looking forward to this. I need something to give me a little spark for motivation. laugh I wish I could make time for the entire weekend. frown

Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/07/15 10:58 AM

Didn't see you yesterday...you coming today?

little video of my best runs from yesterday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvhqvUDphY
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/07/15 06:35 PM

looks like fun!
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/07/15 09:31 PM

Looks like a couple of nice runs Lance ,Congrats !!!
Guy
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/08/15 12:15 AM

Congrats, great runs, here's the results, finished 6th in class, way to make us proud.
http://clubregistration.net/clients/usca/results/overallDetails.cfm?subEventType=AX

Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/15 01:48 AM

Actually I ended up 9th, but I still think I did okay. My Speed Stop session was cut short because of Ken Twait's crash and my 2nd road course session was cut short because of my friend Jeff's crash and subsequent fire that destroyed his 63 split window. Then after my 3rd session I had a grinding noise, most likely a wheel bearing...so I loaded it on the trailer. Was a great weekend but at the same time was very herky jerky and made it difficult for me to put my best effort out on the track. Still think I opened some eyes and did well for myself.

I put my road course video up on the SS at track page.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/15 03:36 AM

Hopefully not another rear wheel bearing.

Noticed a snapping noise in the video.

Didn't make it to an autox this weekend. Harrisburg was pre reg only. There was a autox school at the Philly region this weekend, missed the pre reg for that also. Did drag race the car Fri night, 6 passes, 12.45's, engine won't rev above 5K, pulling the valve covers for a look see. Saw a Hellcat T56 car run a best of 12.2, and a new Shelby GT500 running 12.0s, only being 4 tenths off them helped ease the pain of running lowly 12.4s.

This past weekend should have been a good time for you, the wife and the two "kids". That's the way to go, hook up the trailer and car to the home and off to the races. At the track you can get away to the quietness of the couch. I'm envious.

Bangshift may have some pics up soon.
http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/bangs...-green-results/

Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/09/15 03:49 AM

My driver rear rotor was smoking hot when I came off the track, 100 degrees hotter than the pass rear and the fronts were 100 degrees cooler than that. Might be an indication of the subsequent problem...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/13/15 08:09 PM

So the trip to USCA at NCM went pretty well I guess...car did good, driver did okay...there are a couple of videos and pics on my event report thread.

On the cool down lap of the third session of the road course, I heard a slight grinding noise speed related. I put the car on the trailer at that point and decided to diagnose when I got home. Upon inspection today, I found this.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LVpx4D2GOGxmal3jUIhlHDKA_eE1fNpPBUifATTrU4sj=w1378-h775-no[/img]

Driver side front inside wheel bearing was just starting to eat itself. The grease in that bearing was cooked.

Here is the pass side next to it, pass side was still tight and rotated smoothly.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M9W3NgVVr9NS7fd2MxMGj9tpvRjVF64dSo9_TA7obl_J=w1378-h775-no[/img]

Super glad I stopped when I did, it would have surely completely failed in just a couple more laps at speed.

Since I had it all apart anyway, I pulled out the brake pads to inspect. These are EBC YellowStuffR pads that are about a year and a half old with maybe 200 autocross runs on them and 1 and a half track days.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Td7I0ij18qoZr7lm_wjDSiXKFLx8crfn3xY-5ihMKqsk=w1378-h775-no[/img]

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JGL3-fL9ZdjHB7f7fc-T-xpO6n8--_3iAPrTdQtfTfHC=w1378-h775-no[/img]

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4gnRp-BH3dX9IXCi7G_126f5ZFIzyXk5hszjGCUqvM6i=w1378-h775-no[/img]

There is still plenty of pad left, but they are glazed over and actually starting to come apart around the edges. The rear pads look similar.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/q3MlwBmUfXvY1C61QJ2hvSZtarYg2g1h41WOvbiCU-nU=w1378-h775-no[/img]

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/uOnNlE_vCkKu3KhQMLSx24u2B_8f2mRV9xmouZLFoYGg=w1378-h775-no[/img]

As I was checking the rotor temps during my post session stat taking, I noticed the rear rotors were about 100 degrees hotter than my fronts. I'm assuming this is because they are hidden behind dust shields and the front rotors aren't. Check out how hot the rear pads got...

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qE9a8jPEcOQ2UtLuUZXVCJ4TnZGFdgaPlSgdE2Fdv2bs=w1378-h775-no[/img]

It actually starting boiling the coating off of the back side of the pad.

Thankfully these are all pretty easy repairs and fall under the "wear and tear" category. New bearings, seals and pads will go back on soon.

The other issue will take a bit more thought...and money...to fix.

[video=youtube;tEeAaKxgCM0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEeAaKxgCM0[/video]

Driver side is better which makes me think the diff itself is starting to come apart. This is a 9" with a 31 spline tracloc diff that was refreshed with new bearings and seals about this time last year. I've been driving through the posi coming out of both left and right autocross turns, lifting and spinning the inside rear tire. Time to seriously consider some sort of upgrade here.
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/13/15 08:25 PM

Good thing you found that bearing when you did Lance,could have made for a bad situation otherwise.
You sure are working those brakes,but fortunately,the bearings and pads are fairly cheap and easy to replace.
What are you planning for the rear diff ??
Guy
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/14/15 05:32 AM

When you R&Red the front brakes awhile ago were they new bearings?

Beating on a car always brings out the weaknesses. Just gotta fix um and find the next one. Using the small rotors things get hot faster, and stay hotter long. On an autox course the brakes don't get abused much, not like track time. Maybe ducting cool air to them would help.

Would think all that axle play on just one side would be the splines on the axles or the splines in the side gear are worn.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/14/15 12:42 PM

Last spring put in all new rotors, bearings, seals and brakes...haven't touched them since. I've got no problem with that failure, kind of expected it really. Cost of doing business.

I may pull the rear axle today to inspect the inside splines.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/14/15 08:58 PM

May or may not make a difference but I'd try Timken wheel bearing if you didn't already have them. When I did the brake R&R a few months ago I found most over the counter parts houses sell the imported bearings. Rockauto sells the Timkens, USA, maybe try them this time. The races that came in my new rotors were removed, installed the Timken races also. Also think about a higher temp wheel bearing grease.
http://www.timken.com/en-US/products/lubrication/products/automotive/Pages/Racing.aspx

One of the problems with the G spindle is the outer bearings are small, B spindle outer is larger.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/14/15 10:14 PM

Pretty sure this failure happened because the grease cooked, the grease inside the driver side was hard and crusty like while the same amount of grease in the pass side still looked good and the bearings were still good. I'll upgrade the bearing grease when it goes back together too.

I'll look for timkens when I buy the replacements though.

The good news is it seems like the rear axle bearings held up pretty good...so far.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/19/15 02:11 PM

Little Barney love from the guys at BangShift Apex here
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/19/15 03:41 PM

That's awesome Lance,congratulations !!!
Guy
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/19/15 04:23 PM

Congrats Lance, nice article.
Posted By: The PC Surgeon

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/19/15 07:38 PM

Good Job, keep pushing Lance. Are you still using the Falken Azenis Tires?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/19/15 11:11 PM

Thanks guys, I think it's pretty cool to be recognized for all my hard work.

Yep, probably halfway through my second set of Azenis 615Ks. MIght get my third set before SCCA Nationals in Sept. These have some pretty good flat spots on them now. loser pointlaugh smokin
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/20/15 08:51 PM

Pretty good day in the garage today. I started in the front and swapped out my 0.250" wall front sway bar for my 0.375" wall MonsterBar...

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BVR5h3SCy6BMdIMr6mPLeOdv39xjEJRdr66OFogvImFN=w1378-h775-no[/img]

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c0p3TDy4P8uJDpkP2FYc-A9-MaY-Gj4bpp_QQRZBS_1R=w1378-h775-no[/img]

Install was pretty painless, the only fight I had was getting the 3 cap head bolts out of the swing arms. Ended up using a combination of heat, penetrant and patience. When I first put this bar in, these kept coming loose...so I put a dab of blue loctite on them to help keep them snug. Problem is the back side of the hole they go in is open and rust built up in there and made removal somewhat difficult. I put a liberal coat of antiseize on them before reinstall but I assume they'll start coming loose again after use. I'll just keep an eye on them for now while trying to come up with a better solution. No issues with the frame holes at all thankfully.

I then tried to install these trick front wheel bearing spacers from AllStar.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HaLBszg_lLvHbG2NcBSpzBI_klHBsESkM14GjgXx8V4m=w1378-h775-no[/img]

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5xAAoW9dQH6vYaYi_Pqde6ydm-TlPabbCw8bvsllIDLN=w436-h775-no[/img]

They are adjustable in length and let you preload the inner and outer bearing races so you can snug the spindle nut up tight while letting the rotor still turn freely.

AllStar has been wanting me to try these for a while so I figured since I had to replace the wheel bearings anyway, this was a good time.

Unfortunately, my rotors (which are still in fantastic shape) have too small of an ID near the outer bearing and the spacers won't work in them. I guess I could put these rotors on a lathe and trim out the inside of the rotor a bit, but with a race coming up next Sunday I need to get this thing back on the ground for now. This upgrade will have to be postponed for now, but I'll figure out a way to make them work eventually.

My last project for the front was to press out the old stock length wheel studs and replace them with 2.5" ARP wheel studs. This is where I got stalled as I need some different plates for my press to be able to get the last 4 studs in. I know I could run them in with a lugnut and if I was in a pinch I would, but I have the plates I need at work and will pick them up tonight, finish these up and pack the outer bearings and reinstall the rotors.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/EPTlsAmwrM-h1_UURShSx4wE6fyo3ug6s4UHqzGX4e3N=w436-h775-no[/img]

I had a rebuilt TracLoc installed into my third member and this fixed the backlash issue. Just a quick reinstall of the third member, then the axles..and lastly swap 250# springs in the rear for the 200# springs to match the rear roll resistance with the new stiffer front sway bar and the rear is just about tidied up as well.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JSEBy-ncAyfe9BkCSlrniWaiuExK-PyCT_UUWQbG40Xk=w1378-h775-no[/img]

Still waiting on my new brake pads to show up, should be here on Monday. Then I can get this thing back down on the ground, bed the new pads in and spend some time getting used to the new Stage 4 Ron Sutton Race Technology high travel, lower roll setup before next weekend.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/23/15 03:51 PM

Drove the car to work today to start breaking in all the new parts (tracloc, brakes, etc)...

Man...it's like a different car with that MonsterBar under there... This should be fun!!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/29/15 02:53 PM

Good day at the track yesterday. It was my first attempt at driving on course after Stage 4 of the Ron Sutton Race Technology high travel low roll setup was installed. Stage 4 consisted of a major increase in the stiffness of the front sway bar matched by a slight increase in the rear spring rate. Along with those changes, I also had new brake pads front and rear, a new posi in the rear axle and was trying a new set of air pressures front and rear based off of what I learned at NCM couple of weeks ago...so yeah, a lot of changes really.

The course was great, we all had a blast on it. It was free flowing, no pinch points, visually great, it was FUN. The car was a bit loose in the early runs, not step out sideways unpredictable loose, just a oopsy...gotta catch that there a bit free. I backed out one click on rear shock rebound as it was lifting the inside rear tire on corner entry and started lowering the rear tire pressure a pound at a time. This was my tire sheet after my first run

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rjcc-2wgbrBk1yDOjFGsPAjPdQFYSjBf0uytuDDWz1pd=w1161-h653-no[/img]

I started out with 37 psi in fronts, 35 psi in the rears. For a long time, I've been starting at 33 in the front, 32 in the rear. Not sure if it's in combination with the new front sway bar or not, but 37 in the fronts works a LOT better. 35 in the rear was too much, I started my 4th run at 37F, 32R and it worked great. This was my tire sheet after my 3rd run, I didn't check them after my 4th when I ran with 32 PSI in the rear.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UnBRFTp6AH3P77cbZ5BjvoS4oHbEoviDH-phVq09LiIj=w1161-h653-no[/img]

Here is a video of my 4th and best run, I already had a good time in the books and was really trying to let it all out. Pay attention to how flat the front stays in the slalom on the back, that is where I noticed the most improvement over stage 3.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsOAr3MoT94


Ron has made this car turn in really well ever since Stage 1, when the front suspension is compressed under braking, it just worked great. Where the front was lacking a bit would have been in the slalom or later in larger turns where the suspension wasn't compressed therefore hurting the front tire contact patch.

What this new MonsterBar does (and Ron will probably chime in here and correct the way I'm describing this) is on those longer turns or during the slalom where the front isn't compressed because of braking, when you turn the steering wheel, instead of the outside front dipping, rolling the car over too much and messing with the contact patch, the whole front of the car compresses and keep a better contact patch up front on both tires and more weight on the front as well. It is a HUGE difference in how the car handles and will take a bit more time on the driver's part learning how to take advantage of this new found front grip.

The best part is, this change up front did not make the rear any worse. Once I got the car dialed in, the rear is just a tick free on corner exit, just like it was before Stage 4. It is completely controllable though, not even close to being edgy. In the video you will notice two places where the rear was pretty free, but that was 100% course related. When you go from grooved concrete, to smooth asphalt, then back to grooved concrete all in one pretty fast turn, you are going to loose a bit of grip during the asphalt part of the turn. Also the last decreasing radius sweeper before the finish, the pavement is giving up pretty bad there and it's always a tiptoe through there at speed.

The timed results were encouraging, I finished 22nd in raw time out of 133 entrants and 2nd in class losing by just under a second to a 2015 Mustang with brand new 315mm Rival Ss on all four corners.

Here are the class results

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event6_fin.htm#camc

And the raw time results

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event6_raw.htm

When looking at the raw times, you should note that the Heat 1 drivers had a mostly wet course due to rain. I think it was drying out pretty good for their 3 and 4th runs but there was still some pretty wet spots during the course walk between 1 and 2. Everyone else ran in the dry though.

Anyway, I can't wait to get back out on course and test the new setup some more. I'm thankful to Ron that it was basically fast off the trailer (or highway since I drove it to the track) and only needed some minor tweaking to dial it in. I'm sure as I push it more it'll need a bit more tweaking but so far...so good.
Posted By: 200kSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/29/15 06:14 PM

Not going to lie, you're at a level where I'm getting lost in the technical data. Is the fact the LR rotor is 50 degrees warmer than the RR a concern?

Oh, and were does the line form to request your cast off speed parts?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/29/15 06:30 PM

Left to right isn't really a concern as this course had more hard left hand turns than right hand turns...the fronts being 50-100 cooler than the rears is a concern.

I thought it was an anomaly when it first showed at NCM couple weeks ago, attributed it to glazed over front pads and dust shields on the rear. With brand new pads all around and it showed it's ugly head again...it is a pattern.

I think I know what it is, just haven't decided on the cure yet. I still run the factory brake proportioning valve which holds a little pressure on the rear brakes after the pedal is released. Apparently it's the reason why I have no complaints about pad knock back with my rear discs like everyone else not running a floater complains about. It obviously has other drawbacks though...
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/29/15 09:47 PM

Id take that out and just run a 2psi residual pressure valve.

Usually its the fronts that get warmer, quicker. Unless its a dirt car and it has more rear weight and brake.

I wouldnt worry too much about it if the car feels balanced under braking. You dont want to risk locking one up too early over another.

The set up that Ron has you on is straight out of asphalt late model racing BBSS (big bar soft spring)
Do you have any sort of bump stops on that or are you relying on the lower control arm bump stop getting into the frame?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/30/15 12:52 AM

Yeah the braking is very balanced... The only time it surprised me was when I had just pulled out onto the highway Sunday morning and tried one more time to bed the new brake pads in. I guess the rears were quite a bit warmer than the fronts and grabbed right away locking the backs up. I let off right away and then tried again and it was balanced all the way from 60 mph down to about 15 mph. This makes sense to me now because I had just pulled away from several stops and the rears had probably built up some heat from the residual pressure while the fronts didn't get any heat into them at all.

My shocks have bumpstops on them and the suspension is setup to utilize the full length of the shocks both front and rear. The only bump stop that usually gets pushed all the way to the shock body has been the driver rear. I forgot to check it after yesterday's runs though...it might be just off of bottoming out now with the 250# springs in the rear.

Ron calls this his Big Bar Soft Spring front and Big Spring Soft Bar rear setup... All I know is this thing will turn on a dime and give you a nickel's change back. It really works. I have seen no side effects on street manners either...that's what makes it a really nice setup.
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/30/15 02:35 AM

My only concern with a set up like yours around here would be the roads. Anyone who has been on I94 across MI lately can attest to that.

Are you on the bumps alot while racing? Ever on the street?
Do you know what your front wheel rate is? With the soft springs can you notice the car settling down at speed?
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/30/15 02:36 AM

Oops noticed the "only on the rr" too late.
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/30/15 02:47 PM

What's your front spring rate? 250lb rear is pretty stiff. Stock was something like 160. I'm running 225 lb/in in the rear and just bought springs that will end up at 900 lb/in after a slight trim. That gives me the front and rear ride frequencies that I want. I'll probably need a rear bar that is bigger, closer to the auxiliary roll stiffness provided by the front. The good news is you get closer to a 1:1 motion ratio on the rear bar, so it won't have to be nearly as stiff.

The reason I chose my spring rate on ride frequency is because road disturbances won't induce pitching this way. If you have a big difference front to rear, you'll get pitching.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 06/30/15 03:13 PM

I run 600#s up front, 250# out back. The front will travel almost 3" at the shock from static ride height to full compression under hard braking, which is close to 5.5" at the wheel if I remember correctly. It never hits the bump stops hard, just kisses off of them at full extreme.

On the road manners are fantastic, I have zero complaints about the ride, NVH and handling whatsoever. Having the adjustable shocks might play into this as I can change the ride front or rear quite a bit by just adjusting the shocks.

I forgot that I loosened the rebound all the way up front and rear when I trailered it home from KY, so my first ride after all of the fixes and new sway bar, springs etc kind of felt like the old days when we used to run air shocks to hold the back up. The back was pretty planted and the front bobbed up and down as you hit bumps at highway speeds. After clicking the rebound I typically run back into the fronts, it settled the bobbing down and put it back to more of the European feel the ride has to it now. I never touch the compression settings, front or rear, they've been where they were set at during my initial test n tuning on them ever since.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/20/15 03:05 PM

I spent the day yesterday autocrossing with the Gateway Autox group...and by the day...I mean the whole damn day!! It was sort of the tale of two tracks, the first 8 runs in the morning session were on a rain soaked, standing water everywhere, type of surface and the second set of 8 runs (yes, 16 runs total in one day!!) were on a somewhat dry surface.

Even with the weather, the event was fantastic, well worth the 4 hour drive to attend. Huge thanks to the Luebcke family for hosting me the night before and keeping me nourished and refreshed throughout the day. Really enjoyed racing and just hanging out with you all, have to do it again soon. It was also good to see the rest of the KC group that came over to race, Frank, Georgia and Keith and to meet up with some STL friends like Dan and Eric. You all know it's your turn to come to KC for an event now right?

Here's the tale of two runs, first is my second run in the rain where I was still trying to figure out where the grip was...and where it wasn't and the second run was my fastest of the day in the dry. What a fun course...really enjoyed running on it.

https://youtu.be/FPjftt_dHJM

It is now time for some new tires...for sure...they should be here on Wednesday.

I also need to do something to back off on the rear brakes. The Ron Sutton Race Technology Stage 4 setup is working great in the slaloms and twisties letting the car carry way more speed there, but too much rear brake is making the car loose on corner entry which is holding the car back in the sharper turns. I've got a couple of quick fixes I may try, while planning a more important permanent fix for the future. It's true what they say, the more you fix, the better you make the car (and the driver), the more the little things that are still wrong show up...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/22/15 04:15 PM

So, this picture was taken during entry into the fastest 90 degree turn on the course last Sunday.



To me, it looks like the Ridetech MonsterBar is holding the front pretty dang flat.

This picture is taken entering the next fastest 90 degree turn. I believe my rear braking issue is showing up here as at this point in the run my pads were fully heated up and the rear brakes were making the rear axle wheel hop under braking and turn in. That might just be the driver rear tire up in the air...



Front is still pretty flat though considering how far the pass front suspension is compressed.

This picture was taken during a high speed, off camber slalom turn.



I can't get over how well this car slaloms now with Stage 4 installed, I'm still trying to find the limits there. It's like a completely different car now...
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 01:41 PM

That's awesome Lance. The car is now different and you can't find the limits. I can't say I ever had a car that was "so" developed that I couldn't find it's limits.

You think maybe you just haven't had it going fast enough on a track yet?



Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 02:25 PM

Yeah, I just haven't found how hard or fast I can push it before I loose the front end specifically.

I'm having some issues loosing the back end at times. There are a couple of different factors at play with that, mainly the rear brakes locking up before the fronts on corner entry. One way to tighten a car up in the roll thru zone of a corner...is to go faster...fast enough that the front end pushes.

I have yet to corner the car fast enough with the new setup that the front end pushes. laugh

I've raced the car so long that I have a reflex that says "slow down here" and that reflex just needs more adjustment. It's called a "driver mod".

I'm sure it would happen faster on a road course taking the same corners over and over while steadily logging laps, with autocross it's different because it's an all out qualifying lap over many different types of corners that you have never seen before on different surfaces...all done limited times in a hurry. One is trying to learn not only the car, but the course as well and set the fastest time on every run.

Hopefully I'll get some fun runs in Sat at the Solo school I'm instructing at to practice some more. I'm also going to slide my OEM style brake pads back in the rear calipers to try to tame the rear brakes down some to see if that helps with the loose in condition.
Posted By: Hey-O

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 03:53 PM

That was a bunch of fun!!! No man alive can drive hard in that much water, I don't care what your driving! It's crazy watching you make an old boat, remember I own one, turn heads with the best of them. To me, that's the best part. The fact that you took a car you loved from the start and turned it into a totally different car is a testament to what can be done. Your a trip to watch!!!!!! Don't ever stop!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 04:28 PM

Shoot Ulli, I was in your backyard and forgot all about letting you know we were there... I would have taken you for a ride for sure.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 05:08 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
I would have taken you for a ride for sure.



Can I take you up on that offer? CAM Challenge East is getting close!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 05:28 PM

Absolutely... I thought that was already agreed upon...

My new Falkens got here yesterday BTW...
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 05:30 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Absolutely... I thought that was already agreed upon...

My new Falkens got here yesterday BTW...


Making sure I lock in my spot! I'm sure there will be a line!

Better bring some locking lug nuts for those wheels or they may find their way onto my car... poke
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/23/15 09:40 PM

Lookin good Lance, the new sig is throwin me off, haha.

Unfortunately I cant make CAM as I am working the NSRA show in Louisville that weekend.
But, the head of marketing himself might be down there. Thats good news for everybody.
Get a good pic of the car at speed and Ill make sure it gets in a catalog.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 02:17 AM

Did you ask Ron about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61CoZ7O-RBg

May help the rear lockup.
Been running one for about 8 years, simple install, located just rearward of the #3 body bushing. My rear brakes are pretty effective although still drum. Kevlar linings, large wheel cylinders, alum drums, performance spring kit. The front 12" setup is also agressive. Several times have had to make some serious stops, can't say I've ever locked up the rears, smoked the fronts though. For me the Stewart valve is a plus.

The original concept of the valve has been around for many years, truck, buses, Ford passenger vans, vehicles that have large difference loaded and unloaded, used to help prevent rear lockup. Howard Stewart's son was racing cars, he re-engineered the valve for his son. Stewart water pumps, his recirc brake fluid system, and a few other components he produced. Sold Steward Ccomponents years ago, now has this product. Pretty bright guy.
http://www.racepumps.com/

Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: MC96
Lookin good Lance, the new sig is throwin me off, haha.

Unfortunately I cant make CAM as I am working the NSRA show in Louisville that weekend.
But, the head of marketing himself might be down there. Thats good news for everybody.
Get a good pic of the car at speed and Ill make sure it gets in a catalog.


Shoot, that sucks Mason...I was hoping to get to take you for a run while there. Make sure your guy introduces himself to me while there...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 01:39 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
Did you ask Ron about this?


I just did Bob... It looks interesting and the theory sounds good. I need all the braking force I can get so I'm not that excited about putting less pad in the rear, but I need to be able to brake hard and enter a turn without the rear stepping out.

I'll let you know what he says...
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 02:04 PM

I'm thinking this rear brake issue is a bit more involved than a quick bolt on. You need to install a variable pressure devise that senses rear wheel load to optimize rear breaking force under the range of suspension travel. I've seen some older trucks with this type of set up where suspension travel determined rear brake proportioning pressures. But that was equal to both rear wheels. I think you need to go one step further and split the rear braking pressure per side with load sensing and pressure distribution.

But I'm shooting from the hip here. I don't have too much time to research this stuff as I'm in the airport getting ready to fly to lovely Chicago.... frown
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 02:18 PM

LOL... Wouldn't it be easier to just upgrade the front brakes?

Say "hi" to Chi town for me...
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 02:38 PM

I told him to make sure to look out for a Monte with a n Allstar sticker on it!

Hes big into the Pro Touring stuff, the Motorstate Challenge is actually today at Gingerman.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 05:14 PM

LOL Lance.....

I thought you were going to install a lesser friction pad out back. Countering the rear wheel lock up.

Sure just buy some bigger front brakes. Better than tinkering with something out of the box that might be a bit of a pain and not work.



Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 06:09 PM

Originally Posted By: MC96


Hes big into the Pro Touring stuff, the Motorstate Challenge is actually today at Gingerman.


I know, half of my pro-touring friends are there, the other half ar at Charlotte for the USCA event.

I heard Robbie Gordon is going to run his stadium truck in the USCA event at Charlotte, that would be a BLAST to watch...
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/24/15 06:28 PM

Now THAT would be awesome, I heard quite a few guys talking about the event in Charlotte yesterday.
Our event is USCA associated but doesnt offer anything towards any points or contingency.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/25/15 08:49 PM

Bought a set of O'Reilly's finest OEM style brakebest pads for the rear and put them in today (and also washed the car and nut-n-bolted it). On the ensuing test drive, on the 4th 60 to 20 mph hard braking try the fronts locked up well before the rears...which is what I wanted. When I came back in the shop, the front rotors were 460f and the rears were 380f.

The rear tires were also at the wear indicators and the fronts still had a tad to go to the indicators, so I swapped them as well putting the better ones on the rear.

I've got a local race tomorrow to test everything out once again before I bolt the new rubber on next week.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/27/15 04:57 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
Did you ask Ron about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61CoZ7O-RBg

May help the rear lockup.



We talked about this on Saturday. Ron said he ran them on almost all of his race cars and personally knows the guy that still holds the patent on them.

They do not lessen the pressure to the rear brakes, just delay the pressure a tad. He said the design works pretty well as intended. He does not typically recommend them to Pro-Touring type cars though as they are known to fail. The rubber bladder inside them doesn't stand up to time. All of the race teams that run them keep a spare in the trailer, just like MSD boxes, not a matter of if but when. Not sure what happens when they do fail, I guess just quit working but not impede fluid from getting to the rear brakes?

Wonder how one could test if it is still functioning?

My O'Reilly BrakeBest pads in the rear really did the trick. It's like racing a completely different car yet once again...

It was strange to barrel into a corner and not have the car be loose on entry...nice...but strange. Took me a few runs to get used to it.

Now I can pick and chose the line to run in a turn instead of just choosing the only one that the car will work with. Also can change up the entry and roll through speed. I found many places I could carry WAY more speed than before, and a few places I couldn't... lol...

Here are my runs from yesterday.

https://youtu.be/hieGHZfDmI4

The way this car slaloms now is SICK!! Looking back at the videos I was WAY early into most of the slalom turns. I suppose I can carry MUCH more speed through them once I convince myself the car will stick. I was also early into a few other turns as well, watch me turn into a corner, then have to turn out a bit just to keep from hitting the inside cone. This is the line adjustment the driver has to learn with the new found handling.

I finished top 20 in raw time again out of 104 drivers, on old wore out street tires. Here are the raw time results.

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event9_raw.htm

Still took 2nd in class though, at least I'm beating the Poncho on a regular basis now...and reeling the Camaro in second by second.

http://www.kcrscca.org/results/solo/2015/2015event9_fin.htm
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/27/15 08:51 PM

Lance,you've come a long ways with your Monte,Congratulations !!!
It would be interesting to see how a Monte with a Jeff Schwartz chassis like Dan Howe's would fare against yours...
Guy
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/27/15 11:44 PM

Been there, done that already...bout this time last year in St Louis. I edged out Dan by a few tenths in autocross and speed stop, Dan edged me by a few tenths on road course and kicked my butt in design and engineering.

I'd like to line them up again though as we've both improved our cars and as drivers since then. I bet they are still real close to each other.
Posted By: Number1

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/28/15 03:03 AM

Man I would love to those two line up. Would be so awesome, the best of the best going toe to toe.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/28/15 03:37 AM

When Lance ran Dan he was quiet new on the track as a driver. The Schwartz chassis was just rolled out with little to no adjustments. Dan had openly admitted the car had much more on the table but he wasn't driving it as it could be. Both cars have changed a bit since then.

I know when I watched the video clips Lance sent me I was amazed. Dan's car pulled away from Lance like he was standing still on the straights. Dan would brake early and long then Lance would run him down in the corners.

The best way to see the accurate difference IMO would be too have the same driver run them both. On the same track on the given day with say the best of four laps. No cones do a road course IMO.

Lance is nearly a full time competitor. With much driver training and consulting from some best in the business. That helps a bit. wink



Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/28/15 03:47 AM

Yep, Lance has a good thing going right now, lots of seat time, and a car that keeps improving. I watch all his videos, over and over, and over.

I think he has an Optima event coming up, go get em.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/28/15 11:37 AM

No, no more Optimas for me this year I don't think. The wife wants to go to Road America but I don't think that will happen. I was thinking about going to Pikes Peak Aug 8-9 but since I made it to the Optima at NCM, I'm going to the CAM East Challenge Aug 7-9th instead.

Everyone that does this regularly is getting faster...WAY faster. It is just natural to progress, both as drivers and getting the cars better. For example, all of the Ridetech guys all have brand new super trick shocks on their cars now...Ron Sutton has been after me to get mine revalved with the latest stuff inside them as well. Mine are good...but apparently the digressive valving they've come up with now is night and day better than what I have.

At this level though, what it really comes down to every year is tires, which are the latest trick tires to run. The Bridgestone and Rival S seem to be the flavor this year but unfortunately neither one of them makes a 275/40/17 like Falken does...their widest 17 is a 255. Falken stepped their game up as well by changing the compound in their tires...I'm just not sure if the tires I just bought with date codes 0815 are the new compound or old one. Either way, they still have to be better than the old wore out Falkens currently on the car.

If I want to keep being competitive and have available the best of the best tire of the month, I'll need to step up to 18" rims.

Until then, I'll still be the guy with the small horsepower, small brakes, and small tires nipping at the heels of the big guys. That's alright with me, I kind of enjoy being a pest like that. smile
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/15 12:14 AM

Cool picture from Sunday...

Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/15 12:40 AM












Rest of the pics from the event here...

http://www.peterlinphotography.com/2015event9

David does a great job taking these and we all appreciate his posting them up.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/15 03:02 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Cool picture from Sunday...



Now THAT is awesome!

Thought only those pesky FWD cars lifted a rear tire in the twisties! poke
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/29/15 03:05 PM

That wheels up moment happened at 1:07 in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hieGHZfDmI4

I slid the front tires a tad in that turn but not the rear at all. Previously when I've had trouble when the rear tire lifted the back would hop on the outside rear tire upsetting the car. I think the setup is still pretty close to where it needs to be, I hauled the mail into that turn and just yanked the steering wheel. That much force and that much grip...something had to give. I'm just happy that I was able to attack the corner like that and not upset the car.

BTW...listen to the sound around the 1:35 mark as I go through the slalom section...hear that banging sound?

My electric trunk release solenoid came loose and was banging back and forth inside the trunk swinging by the wire... lol... #racecarproblems
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/30/15 02:43 PM

One thing I notice when looking at pictures of me in the car on track this year...is how different my seating position inside the car is.

Look at this picture from last fall, see how high in the car I am and how hunched forward my shoulders are...



Now look at how lower and further back I am in this picture.



My shoulders are also more relaxed and my grip on the steering wheel is more with just my fingers instead of a fist full of wheel.

I think this seating improvement is helping with my driving and just one more step in the process of becoming faster on the track.

I still haven't 4 corner weighed the car since all of the interior changes but I'm certain I moved some weight off of the front and possibly lost some overall weight with the addition of the much lighter seats and rollbar.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 07/31/15 12:48 AM

Looking good!
Posted By: Turbo6inKY

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/12/15 08:18 PM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Left to right isn't really a concern as this course had more hard left hand turns than right hand turns...the fronts being 50-100 cooler than the rears is a concern.

I thought it was an anomaly when it first showed at NCM couple weeks ago, attributed it to glazed over front pads and dust shields on the rear. With brand new pads all around and it showed it's ugly head again...it is a pattern.

I think I know what it is, just haven't decided on the cure yet. I still run the factory brake proportioning valve which holds a little pressure on the rear brakes after the pedal is released. Apparently it's the reason why I have no complaints about pad knock back with my rear discs like everyone else not running a floater complains about. It obviously has other drawbacks though...


The factory prop valve has an integrated 10psi residual pressure valve. That valve acts against the return spring in a drum setup to keep the shoes against the drum. You don't have a return spring to act against in a disc brake caliper, so you have a full 10psi of line pressure on the rears all the time, as if you were driving around with your foot resting on the brake pedal all the time. That's the cause of your extra rear brake heat.

The solution is taking the factory prop valve out, installing an adjustable prop valve, and a 1 or 2psi residual pressure valve in the rear line. That'll prevent pad knockback, but isn't enough pressure to drag the rear brakes.

As a bonus, the car will go faster. You're effectively driving with the parking brake on right now.

Been there, done that.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 08/30/15 04:38 PM

Been having an issue with the cap head screws holding the swing arms onto the centerpiece of my sway bar coming loose. Had this same issue with my old center piece and I solved it by a dab of blue locktite on them. When it came time to swap out the bar though, I liked to have never got them loose. Heat, penetrant, more heat, more penetrant and a large dose of patience let me finally get the bolts loose to do the swap. The problem is the back side of the bracket where the bolts thread into is open allowing moisture to get into the thread and rust them up. So I didn't use locktite when I put it back together this time...and have been tightening them up after every third autocross run or so or day of driving on the street.

[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c0p3TDy4P8uJDpkP2FYc-A9-MaY-Gj4bpp_QQRZBS_1R=w1378-h775-no[/img]

Today I pulled each bolt out, thoroughly cleaned the bolt and threads...then filled the backside of the threaded hole with clear RTV, put a dab of blue locktite on the bolt, then tightened down once again. The excess RTV squeezed out the back side of the bracket which I wiped off. Hopefully the RTV seals the threads from moisture preventing rust and also acts as adhesive to help the dab of blue locktite to hold the bolts tight now.

That and a good bath are my only jobs to do to get the car ready to head to the CAM Invitational and then the SCCA Nationals in Lincoln, NE next weekend. Well, that and try to be a better driver to get the most out of the car while there...
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/15 06:43 PM

So an old mechanical issue reared it's ugly head again at the SCCA Nationals. It took me a while to diagnose exactly what it was, it actually started at CAM East month or so ago. I initially thought it was the clutch posi giving up again as it seemed like the car was spinning the inside rear tire on exits from short sharper turns. The more I drove it and the more it happened, I finally figured out the clutch was slipping, not the diff.

If you listen close during these runs, on the exit of some corners you'll hear the RPMs spike up but the car doesn't move nor do the tires spin, that's the clutch slipping.

https://youtu.be/Mvs9OZX5Kpw

It hurt my times on the big long fast courses at Lincoln so I did not finish well in either event. The car cornered fantastic, much better than I thought it would...it just wouldn't handle down the fast straights. Time to come up with a new game plan. This clutch is a RAM rated at 500 hp I think that is just over a year old...and I'm making no where near that kind of power.
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/15 07:25 PM

Gee Lance you would think that a Ram clutch would last longer than a year.
I know its not an "Apples to Apples" comparison but I'm only on my 2nd LuK clutch in 15 years.
Now I'm up to 650 flywheel HP and it is still holding up...
Guy
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/11/15 08:03 PM

It probably has to do with the heat that gets built up hitting on and off of the gas over and over and over again during each run.

What is weird to me is other than the slipping coming off the corners, the clutch acts normal...it grabs just fine even under a hard launch.
Posted By: SS Ninja

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/18/15 12:14 PM

http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/apex-feature-barney-the-big-purple-corner-carving-g-body/
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/18/15 08:53 PM

Most of you following along here have seen the build since the beginning, but Dave does a pretty good job of summing it up in a somewhat short article.

Thanks Dave, appreciate it a ton!!
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/18/15 10:32 PM

Excellent, great article.
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/19/15 11:02 AM

Originally Posted By: SSLance
Most of you following along here have seen the build since the beginning, but Dave does a pretty good job of summing it up in a somewhat short article.

Thanks Dave, appreciate it a ton!!


That is indeed a very well written article.
Guy
Posted By: oldtinsmith

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/19/15 02:35 PM

Very cool article!

Doug
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/19/15 04:30 PM

That is a great article, congrats!
Posted By: 84 ZZ4

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/23/15 04:10 PM



Great article! Congrats Lance!
Posted By: MC96

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/23/15 06:43 PM

Nice read and nice pics. Congrats.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/23/15 08:48 PM

Thanks everyone!!

Now what I need is a brake company to feel sympathy for me and step up to help out with an upgrade! laugh

Or a clutch company...

Or a data logging company...

Or a crate engine company... **whistling**
Posted By: Number1

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 02:58 AM

So do you finally feel the need to upgrade your brakes to help improve lap times?
Posted By: Number1

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 03:01 AM

Also would buying the complete ridetech gear excluding the triple adjustable shocks be a good starting point to where your at now or do some measurements first? Thanks in advance. Just love this car and what your doing with it.
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 10:35 AM

After reading through these threads Lance its given me ideas for my 80 Monte. With regards to seating and handling, I'm exploring the idea of lowering my floor pans in the seats up front by 2.5-3 inches, and moving the engine/trans back at least 3" from its stock location to aid in improving my IC of the car.

I completely agree with the stock seat position making you dang near "hover" over the steering wheel.....lol. I'm 6' and 185 lbs. and its a bit snug for me. I think getting the interior to feel more like a 3rd gen fbody would be beneficial for better weight distribution. I think shifting the existing interior weight and drivetrains weight would add a lot to the braking performance.

Admittedly tho my Monte is stripped down at the moment so its not hard to make those mods now vs. doing it to a complete car. I remember an old dirt track guy telling me once that he would rather have a 300 HP car that handles vs. a 600 HP car that's setup wrong lol. His focus was always on proper weight distribution....improving IC, moving more of the drivetrains mass to the rear so the rear can dig and launch out of corners without breaking out, etc. A lot of dirt track methods apply to asphalt or roadracing.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 11:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Number1
So do you finally feel the need to upgrade your brakes to help improve lap times?


I think I'm at the point now where it is going to take cubic dollars to make the car marginally faster. On larger courses, I'm horsepower deficient for certain and I could probably drive deeper into turns to help make up for this a bit if I had a larger brake package.

I just have to decide if the return on investment will be there as these will be large dollar upgrades.

I also still need to get better as a driver as well. Ryan beat me by almost a second when he drove my car and he'd never driven it before...that driver mod is a lot cheaper than brakes or more HP...that's where the data logger comes into play.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By: Number1
Also would buying the complete ridetech gear excluding the triple adjustable shocks be a good starting point to where your at now or do some measurements first? Thanks in advance. Just love this car and what your doing with it.


If you really want it to turn properly, you need to blueprint the front suspension pivot points and correct them first, that more than anything helped my car. It will help if you have your new lower control arms on hand when you do that though. Problem with that is you can't use the same lower arms without and then with coil overs.

I did my measuring and placed everything using new DSE lower arms, ran them for about a month and then sold them to upgrade to the Ridetech arms and coil overs. It worked okay but in hindsight, knowing what I know now, I would have just done it all at once.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 12:28 PM

Originally Posted By: gmachinz
After reading through these threads Lance its given me ideas for my 80 Monte. With regards to seating and handling, I'm exploring the idea of lowering my floor pans in the seats up front by 2.5-3 inches, and moving the engine/trans back at least 3" from its stock location to aid in improving my IC of the car.

I completely agree with the stock seat position making you dang near "hover" over the steering wheel.....lol. I'm 6' and 185 lbs. and its a bit snug for me. I think getting the interior to feel more like a 3rd gen fbody would be beneficial for better weight distribution. I think shifting the existing interior weight and drivetrains weight would add a lot to the braking performance.

Admittedly tho my Monte is stripped down at the moment so its not hard to make those mods now vs. doing it to a complete car. I remember an old dirt track guy telling me once that he would rather have a 300 HP car that handles vs. a 600 HP car that's setup wrong lol. His focus was always on proper weight distribution....improving IC, moving more of the drivetrains mass to the rear so the rear can dig and launch out of corners without breaking out, etc. A lot of dirt track methods apply to asphalt or roadracing.


When I get caught up and have a bit of free time, I need to compare my corner weights before vs after the seat and roll bar upgrades. I think the car is just about the same weight overall, I'm just curious how much I've moved off the front tires to the rear.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 02:57 PM

Forgot to post this video from nationals...more bolts coming loose...

https://youtu.be/izD0NByp0_A

Found this after a particularly poor showing in the CAM Challenge, probably not related though.
Posted By: gmachinz

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 03:08 PM

Funny thing is I didn't give a lot of thought about IC and redistribution of weight until once back in the day I went for a ride along in an 86 Astro van setup with a mid mount 454. The whole setup sat fairly low in a well designed cross member which doubled as a humungous stiffening brace for the frame. On the street, @ stock ride height you could literally fly into a hairpin turn @ 70 mph and that van stuck like glue! Virtually no body roll, no rolling over on the rims (5x5 truck rally's with BFG's) and it was ridiculous how well it handled at all speeds.

After that little lesson in weight placement, I've looked at everything differently now...that was many years ago now.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/24/15 08:40 PM

Lance - been following the evolution of your suspension / handling projects for years. Is what you are learning and applying generic to all our MCSSs or does each one have to be specifically measured and tweaked by someone really knowledgeable and committed? How much is off the shelf and how much is custom measured and fabricated? Any chance you could pair with someone like Mark at SC&C to offer a staged and standardized but superior handling package (even beyond what is offered today) for the 99% of us who don't race (except in our dreams)?
Gordon
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/25/15 03:04 AM

The main reason I relocated my lower control arm pivot points is because the pass side front hole in the cross member was 3/16s of an inch higher than the same hole on the driver side. This made the pass side lower control arm travel in a completely different path than the driver side which meant the car acted differently on left turns than right turns. I'd imagine that most of our cars have some sort of the same issue given the "tolerances" of the day.

I found this by doing the pivot point measuring with the guidance of Ron Sutton, and since I was going to move one of the holes anyway, I decided to move all of them just a tad...to really make the front end work better.

Is this necessary for those that just drive on the street...probably not. Did it help the way the car drives on the street...absolutely.

My car handles good for several reasons really though, first is the corrected geometry, second is the balanced spring rates and sway bars, and lastly is the awesome shocks on it. Only the work done to move the control arm mounts to fix the geometry is custom, everything else can be bought off the shelf by any of you and bolted on and made to work. I did have to get creative with my sway bar end links to keep the tie rod off of the swing arms, but it wasn't that difficult. Also spent a lot of time plotting the bump steer curve to correct that. Both of those will be car specific and no kit will be bolt on and go, these cars are just too different between each one.

I actually have a great respect for the companies that design bolt on suspension parts because they have to make a part that will work on all cars...regardless of manufacturing "tolerances" and that isn't easy. It's probably why most of them error on the side of caution, not extreme.

That said, I knew nothing about any of this when I started and I did ALL of the work on this in my home garage (with a little help from my friends at times). It's like anything else, you just need the desire to make the changes and a little help to steer you along. I'd be happy to help out however I can.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/27/15 11:45 PM

Video from today, best examples of clutch slip are at 40 and 49 seconds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48L5UG0lRs

Rear sway bar was disconnected on the driver side and the rear shock rebound was at -7 clicks from full stiff. It still lifted the driver side rear tire twice that I saw which made the pass side rear tire shudder. Still very driveable though, not edgy at all. Not sure what corner exit grip would have been like because every time I was hard on the gas corner exit it would slip the clutch. Rear rolled over a bit more than normal with the rear bar disconnected but really wasn't even that noticeable. I got used to it very quickly.

This issues I have had in the past with loss of grip on corner exit were not evident today with the sway bar disconnected. It would be interesting to see how it would do while really putting the power down on corner exit.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 09/28/15 02:34 PM

More runs from yesterday from a different perspective

https://youtu.be/7eIeb_aAQrQ

Man that was a fun course!!
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/02/15 10:16 PM

I was impressed with how well that paint still reflects the horizon. laugh
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/02/15 11:05 PM

Do you notice a difference between the concrete with and without grooves and the asphalt?

That RT coilover bracket sure does appear to come close to the inside of that rim!

Did you notice it pushing more with the rear bar disconnected?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 10/04/15 02:14 AM

Oh yeah, major differences in grip on all 3 surfaces.

That is a "Lancebuilt" bracket you are seeing there, not a RT. It has hit the inside of the wheels in the past but I fixed it with a grinder so that doesn't happen anymore.

No, the front felt basically the same...the only time it pushed was when the driver screwed up and over drove corner entry (as usual).
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 12:04 AM

So a new phase of upgrades has officially started. I finally decided to crack the seal on the crate engine and upgrade the heads and cam in an effort to keep up with the LS powered cars I race against on the straights. I plan on doing more road course events from now on and less autoocross so this was a necessary upgrade and actually makes more sense than upgrading the rear suspension, wheels and tires just to try to keep up with all of the autocross specific CAM cars coming out of the woodwork.

I picked up the top end from a blown up 604 crate engine from a local racer, a set of worked over fastburn heads, 1.5 roller rockers, the 604 cam and a single plane intake. I had our local speed shop do a valve job on the heads since a few of the valves had been hit, ended up replacing three of them, all of the springs were checked and all of the valves were lapped in again.

I'm going to custom order a cam Monday to meet my needs and will reuse my dual plane intake, Q-jet, and MSD and just about everything else. Only thing I'm really swapping out is the heads and cam...but those alone should bump me about 100 hp in all the right spots with only giving up just a scant bit of torque way down low (built in traction control).

So we started today by pulling the transmission and then the engine. Only took about 2 hours to get the trans out, then we inspected the clutch a bit...took some time to loosen up a few things underside...then lowered the car to start under the hood.



The flywheel side wasn't too bad



The pressure plate side was toast though





The flywheel surface is okay, the pressure plate surface has some small ridges in and burn spots on it...so it looks like a whole clutch kit is in order.

This was taken when we stopped for lunch.



About an hour later...





These plugs have been in this engine since my "electric fan upgrade" 5 years ago now. Interesting to look at them and the corresponding header ports.









Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 12:14 AM

In the next day or so I'll start to tear this apart...



and get ready to put these heads to good use.







Purple and yellow is my current engine, Dark blue and Green is what we are shooting for power wise and lite blue and red are a stock LS2 like I'll be racing against.

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 06:31 AM

Well it certainly looks like that project is well underway.

I would suggest even though the flywheel may look OK a resurfacing with minimum materiel removal would be a good idea, pretty cheap. Just allows the new disc a fresh start, and insures the surface is true.
I didn't realize that the new heads are drilled for Vortec and a standard 12 bolt intake manifold. Not that there is much choice for a spreadbore intake to chose from in either bolt pattern. On Tom's car we run a Edel 7104, my engine a Weiand 7125 single plane which was discontinued several years ago. I know you are going to start out with your intake from the HT, but compare it to the 7104 before you do the bolt on. May see some more to gain on the top end for 220 bucks. Two things to consider on intake choice, installed height, the 7104 should be close to you present height. The second is carb linkage which I think you already have the bracket on the rear carb bolts, so that isn't a problem. Sell the GM single plane, it's a 400 dollar intake, it won't fit under the hood without a big drop base, put the 7104 on, stays on budget.

The plugs look pretty good considering you have oil coming past several intakes. Be sure to inspect the seals and guides on the old offending cylinders that show oil. Also inspect the intake gaskets for possible areas to suck oil. No experience with the Vortec intake/gaskets, but never understood why 4 bolts a side was better than 6. You have to eliminate the rings as the possible oil donor.
Bob

Posted By: 200kSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 03:12 PM

I run the 7104 intake as well. It fits nicely under the Goodmark hood with the q-jet, but you would have to change the spacer height to get the cowl induction seal to match the hood.

My bigger concern would be port alignment of the 7104 or any standard 12 bolt intake vs. a vortec specific intake.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 04:25 PM

So no wheel change? Darn...... Are you going to touch the short block?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 05:34 PM

Here's a nice piece of info on the Vortec circle track crate engines, lots of good info here.
http://staffordmotorspeedway.com/wp-content/uploads/GM-602-CRATE-ENGINE-TECH-MANUAL.pdf

It seems the Fast Burns have raise intake ports, so you need to make sure you check intake gaskets, and port matching between the heads and any intake you choose to run, even the HT intake. There is Fel Pro 1255 gasket which should work if you chose to go with a 12 bolt, non-Vortec intake. GM does seems to make a dual plane, Spread bore, 12 bolt intake, 10185063, not sure wheter it will mate properly with the Fastburn raised ports. Lots of gray areas when running Vortec Fastburns and intake manifold choices.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 07:11 PM

Originally Posted By: 345HP87SSAC
So no wheel change? Darn...... Are you going to touch the short block?


Don't plan too.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/27/15 07:15 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
Here's a nice piece of info on the Vortec circle track crate engines, lots of good info here.
http://staffordmotorspeedway.com/wp-content/uploads/GM-602-CRATE-ENGINE-TECH-MANUAL.pdf

It seems the Fast Burns have raise intake ports, so you need to make sure you check intake gaskets, and port matching between the heads and any intake you choose to run, even the HT intake. There is Fel Pro 1255 gasket which should work if you chose to go with a 12 bolt, non-Vortec intake. GM does seems to make a dual plane, Spread bore, 12 bolt intake, 10185063, not sure wheter it will mate properly with the Fastburn raised ports. Lots of gray areas when running Vortec Fastburns and intake manifold choices.
Bob


GM sells a couple crate engine combos with this intake and fastburnss and they use the exact same intake gaskets so I'm hoping I'm okay.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/28/15 07:37 PM

100 plus on both lines will be awesome. Cant wait to see it ride in it. Your numbers, are they at the flywheel or at the tire?
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/15 12:06 AM

Those are flywheel number comparisons...

Buncha parts ordered today...stuff is about to happen.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/15 01:12 AM

SSweet!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/15 06:16 PM

Disassembly just about complete...need to run up to O'Reillys and grab a balancer puller to finish up.



Everything looks good to me so far. Was surprised the pistons weren't further in the deck considering what everyone has said about these.



Need to figure our a way to measure it to be positive.

Oh yeah, iron heads weight 48.5# each, Aluminum Fastburns are 22.5# each. 52# savings... Woot!
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/15 07:17 PM

Lance the engine looks nice and clean still.

You can buy the fixture to hold the indicator to measure the distance the piston is in the hole. It's in there pretty good. I would think .025 at least shooting from the hip. Maybe just clean the deck surface good and use a straight edge and feeler gauges to get in the ball park.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/15 08:44 PM

Cam is out...



Overall very pleased with what I found.

This is how far the piston is in the deck.



I never have figured out how to read this damn manual caliper... lol... One of these days I'll get me a digital set that tells me what I'm seeing. laugh

Rods chamfered to clear pan rail



Just a couple of cylinder show just the slightest scuffing, this is the worst I saw.



Most cylinders still have the honing cross hatch visible, no wear edge at the top of the cylinders at all.

Freaking timing cover is plastic and has stamped on it "replace assembly if removed"... I hate the timing mark on it anyway...maybe an aftermarket one is in my future to go with my Canton pan.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/29/15 09:20 PM

With that dish in the center of the the piston you'll need to measure deck on the outer edges. When you take your measurement tap the piston on the upper and lower edges, to see how much the piston will rock, this will influence you reading. The piston will move, rotate, around the piston pin. I would think the piston to bore clearance is pretty tight on your engine and the rock will be minimal.

Suggested cylinder head bolt sealant, GM 12346004 is what I prefer to use. For an RTV to use at the ends of the intake I use the GM 88864346. There are several Locktite/Permatex substitutes but I have had very good luck with the GM stuff.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88864346
When you install the oil pump pickup be sure to have it welded to the pump, and check to see how far the pickup is off the bottom of the pan, don't take that for granted. A strip of modeling clay can be used for that, about 3/8" is what you are looking for.

The timing cover on the engine is not reusable, per GM, due to the compressing of the seal. The first time we had Tom's ZZ4 apart we reused the cover. The last time we bought a new one, they're pretty cheap. And you can cut the stupid looking tab on the top off.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88864346

Also before you install the damper have the engine at true TDC and verify that the timing make on the plastic cover is lined up with the damper mark for "0". I've found they can be off by 1 or 2 degrees.
Bob
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 03:41 AM

That measurement isn't correct Lance, it cant be in the hole .100. As Bob said measure the outer edge of the piston. The rocking of the piston Bob mentioned is going to be a small influence. I would say the factory has a .003 piston to bore clearance which you can split once you find the high and low.

That bottom end is full of good stuff for taking load.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 05:35 AM

Another trick to do on your engine is drill a small hole. .030", in the oil galley plug in the center, this supplies additional oil to the chain. The newer factory roller engines should have this done if not already done by GM. The cam retainer/thrust surface also benefits from this. Here's a little write up on that.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33560

In the hole will be .025 to as high as .032" on a stock shortblock, can't say I've seen a production Chevy engine lower than .025". When I thought I hydro locked my 4.3 in the Astro, head gasket at #5, checked the deck height on all 6 cylinders, all were .032", didn't bend a rod. The only way to accurately check it is with a dial indicator mounted to a bridge. You're welcome to mine. Priority Mail would have it there Sat.

Don't forget to throw a new rear main seal in while you have it apart.

Another trick is to cut a very small groove in the distributor housing, indexed so when the dist position is at your initial advance setting, say 10 degrees, the groove is pointing at the cam gear. This is helpful when a higher pressure or higher volume oil pump is used. The dist turns the pump, the pump load is on the dist gears. Make sure you read this.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/distributor-gear-wear.1701/

Also when you select a cam pay attention to what type of dist gear the cam manufacture wants. Could be melonized (most GM cams), could be cast iron dist gear if the cam is a two piece billet. My Comp custom roller is a two piece, requires a cast dist gear. Stupid me didn't figure that out before I ate up two expensive GM gears and finally looked at the cam card. A bore scope check of the cam dist gear showed it was still ok. Now I run a Comp composite gear, it take all the guess work out of choosing a dist gear, it's a fix all for roller cams.

Fuel pump pushrod, use what the cam grinder wants, could be a bronze tip one. Oh, I like spending your money. Sorry about all the details, but details is what engine building is all about.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 05:44 AM

Oh, that vernier caliper you have, looks like the same Craftsman one I've owned for 45 years. It's accurate enough for most things. Only problem I have now is I need a magnifying glass to read it anymore. Have two digital calipers, battery is always dead when I need them. By the way that magic number looks like .037".

When you degree the cam you will need to find TDC, then you can check the deck height again, at true TDC.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 01:31 PM

LOL at Bob, I still couldn't see it WITH my glasses on...had to take a picture of it with my phone and blow it up to read it.

Thanks for the details post above Bob, all great ideas.

Spent the last 12 hours contemplating taking it the rest of the way down, checking the bearings, and even hot tanking the block and putting new freeze plugs and cam bearings in it. This way I could clean up all of the oil drain edges, drill holes in plugs, those types of things while at the same time being absolutely certain everything is fresh too.

Wouldn't take much more to do it all now vs starting from scratch at a later point.
Posted By: 345HP87SSAC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 04:24 PM

Do it . YOu always do it all the way. Now would be a good time and not cost you much $$.
Posted By: FrankOC

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 04:44 PM

WhileI'matititis!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 07:57 PM

Originally Posted By: FrankOC
WhileI'matititis!



Precisely!!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 09:29 PM

Why does this project sound like the "I'm going to install electric fans and clean up the underhood area a little"?

Gotta be careful if you think you need to pull the crank out. Ever see the digital counter they use for the national debt, the costs don't increase quite that fast but it doesn't take long before a Cleveland dollar bill is gone.
Bob
Posted By: GuysMonteSS

Re: SSLance's Build thread - 12/30/15 10:00 PM

Oh come on now Bob,how much can a set of bearings cost ??? LOL
Guy
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