MonteCarloSS.com

88ssBrent's Build!

Posted By: 88ssBrent

88ssBrent's Build! - 01/03/21 03:40 PM

UPDATE: 6/7/21: TKX 5 speed discussion and install starts on page 12.

UPDATE: 9/21/21: 396 sbc discussion and build start on page 19.



So I've started my 305 build. I know it always sparks an interesting conversation when someone ask the question about trying to "get more out of my 305".

To get it out of the way why I'm building the 305, my engine has 18,000 miles on it and runs top notch as far as a stock l69. I wanted to venture into "learning my way around a sbc" and get a little more pep. Yes I know I could get more out of a 350 or ls engines are dropping out of the sky everywhere for $1000 but for me that was not happening.

I didnt want to take the chance on a junkyard pulled ls and if you really put it to pen and paper a ls swap is not cheap if done right. I looked around and any decent engines with trans were around $2500 to $4000, then you look into other aspects to get it swapped and you quickly get up in price. A stock 5.3 is listed at 320/340, hp/tq. It also did not align with my future goal.

On to the 350, yes I could get more out of a 350. Once again I did not want to go with a junkyard pull because of risk and unknowns. I could buy an engine, tear it down take it to machine shop then build and once again if done right Im sitting at $4000 or $5000 dollars and its not my ultimate goal.

My long term goal is a 400 sbc dart block, with a non ccc quadrajet on top. I really like the sbc/carb combo. Before I get there I want to upgrade my trans and rear end. So to hold me over and get my feet wet im building the 305. In the end I should be around 315 to 345 h.p. and I'm starting with a known dependable short block. Im doing all the work myself and with parts I should be around $2000 to $2500. At the end of the day its what I wanted to do and what made the most sense to me. It may not be what others would choose to do.

I figured i would start this thread so others could see if this might be an option for them. I also have full intentions of putting the car on a dyno when done to get a rwhp number.

Leading up to this i put a new exhaust on the car and this is the thread.

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1068550#Post1068550

I also went through the carb just to learn more about it and make sure everything is in good shape. I took advice from Badss and Mmc427ss and both helped me. I also talk to Cliff and ordered all my parts from him. Here is the thread

http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1067863#Post1067863



Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. - 01/03/21 04:05 PM

Here is a list of the main parts list. Badss has helped me spec every part of this build and ran through his computer dyno software. Im doing the work but through the forum, email, and phone calls he has helped me every step of the way. All his help is greatly appreciated.

Trick flow 23 175 heads
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30310005

Comp cam 12-249-4
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-12-249-4

Lifters
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-858-16

Scorpion 1.6 roller rockers
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1038

Arp head bolts
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-3601

Mahle head gaskets
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mah-5746

Cloyes timing chain set
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-c-3023x

Intake gasket
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30400921

3/10/21 update: if you keeping reading this thread you will see that I run in to some issues with parts availability and some manufacturing issues that get sorted out, Its a doozy. Here is the amended parts list. You would have no issues with the above setup. I end up being accidently sent roller lifter heads and my block was roller lifter ready so I went with it other than waiting longer.


Trick Flow 23 175 heads
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30310007

Cam
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-08-465-8

Timing Chain Set
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1145

Pushrod tool
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-90008

Fuel pump pushrod
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4607

Cam retainer
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-10088128

Roller lifter kit
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12371042

Scorpion 1.6 roller rockers
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1038

Arp head bolts
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-3601

Mahle head gaskets
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mah-5746

Intake gasket
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30400921



UPDATE: 6/7/21: TKX 5 speed discussion starts on page 12.








Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. - 01/03/21 05:01 PM

Engine before pulling
[Linked Image]

Engine pulled and on the stand
[Linked Image]

At this point I plugged all the holes and washed, scrubbed and degreased. Then I went over block block with wire wheel and washed and scrubbed with dawn detergent. Tore the engine down,taped everything up, final wipe with acetone and sprayed low gloss black.

[Linked Image]

Also sprayed oil pan and timing chain cover after prep

[Linked Image]

This is what all the cylinders looked like.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. - 01/03/21 07:30 PM

Dang, that is a clean car! It's going to be even cleaner once you get it tall back together.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. - 01/04/21 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by SSLance
Dang, that is a clean car! It's going to be even cleaner once you get it tall back together.


Thank you Lance. The original owner took very good care of it. I hope its a little cleaner and hopefully I can get it all back together without any problems and it can be a little faster. I know its not going to be much but it should have a little more pep.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. - 01/04/21 01:21 PM

Ready to install everything

Cam specs

112 lobe spread +4
249 int. / 260 exh.
206 int. / 212 exh.
.463 int. / 474 exh. with 1.6 ratio


[Linked Image]

Everything installed and ready to degree the cam. I know its overkill and probably not needed but I wanted to degree the cam. Ive read tons about cams but im the type that really doesn't understand things until I see it function how it works in person. I kept checking ebay and got the summit degree kit for $65 used. Also as I go along I have purchased some specialty tools as I plan on sticking with the sbc platform. I already had the indicator on the machined block so I made it work for checking TDC. I also purchased the comp crank socket and im glad I did i think it was $30. To degree the cam I used 2 solid lifters.

Luckily, Kevin (Badss) knew i was a novice and warned me that the second lifter back from front of block on #1 cylinder was the intake. Evidently its a common mistake. The one thing he couldn't teach me is how to read a degree wheel. Doh!

[Linked Image]

So my intake centerline was supposed to be 108.0°. After setup and getting TDC i kept coming up with a icl of around 113.5°. I reset everything and did it again by Comps directions. Same thing 113.5°. Just to prove what a moron i am I did it 2 or 3 more times and came up with the same thing. Sent Kevin a email and quit for the night.

Next day I set everything up and Kevin sent me some suggestions of things to check. Same thing, same 113.5°. I set down on a stool about 6 feet away and was staring at the wheel and realized I was reading one side of the wheel wrong going in the direction of the engine (clockwise). I went to full lift set my indicator at .000, went down one side of the lobe .050 I came up with 152°, back to full lift back down the other side of lobe .050 came up with 64.5°. 152+64.5= 216.5 ÷2=108.25°. The whole time I was reading the 64.5 as 75.5 on the wheel.

As a electrical troublshooter i should know better to step back and look from a distance when things aren't working out. When I train people I preach it. Well I didnt practice it and just kept digging my self in a hole for a little while. I felt like a idiot. But easy mistake being first time and being afixed on 1 thing. I hate to tell this but maybe it will help someone.

[Linked Image]

I checked the exhaust centerline and it was dead on 116°



Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent 305 build and other changes to my monte. - 01/04/21 04:44 PM

As a senior in my golden years I've learned when something like that happens I do three 360 spins, sit down in a chair, turn on the golf channel and forget about the
problem until my mind clears. So been there, done that.
I always wondered about whether there really is a Bizarro World, where up is down and down is up.

It's been a couple years since degreeing the last cam. A friend with a 440 68 Dodge Dart just got another Isky cam, looks like I'll be degreeing that cam for him.
Oh boy.

Seems like a lot of work to freshen a 305 but I get it. Another friend with an 84SS did the same as you are doing, his car has about 27K on it. A set of Trick Flow heads, nor sure which cam, and pulled the CCC and installed a Sean Murphy carb, which we had problems with, and an old school HEI. My old Edel TES headers I sold him years ago are also installed on the car. The older SS had a TH 350, he found a used 2500 stall converter and installed that. Unfortunately with the Rona only one trip to the track to see how it ran was a disappointment, an ignition miss plagued him.

Many years ago the T56, 8 1/2" rear went in behind the original 305 in my 86. Only the TES headers with a very good 2 1/2" cat-back and some tweaking on the Qjet, all CCC still intact and the car went 14.9 @ 93.5 granny shifting my way down the 1/4. Not fast but a large increase from stock. So there is potential from the 305.

And getting your hand dirty on a good old SBC rebuild is not a bad thing, it's an education for any dinosaur oil fueled engine.

Keep pluggin away on it.

You also know you are lucky. To have a 88 SS that is in such a pristine condition to play with is a HUGE plus.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/04/21 05:53 PM

So this is where I'm at now, I felt the lobes were sitting to far off center in the lifter bore.

[Linked Image]

The cam gear is also making slight contact with the block.

[Linked Image]

I was suspicious that the crank gear was sitting to far back and pulling the cam to far back. After some digging its hard to find a double roller timing set thats specified for the 87-up roller lifter block with a flat tappet cam in it. On the roller block you have the 2 holes for the cam plate at 3 and 9 position, you also have the three oil galley plugs that are machined flush with outer cam journal face.

[Linked Image]

A non roller lifter block the 3 plugs set back from the machined cam journal face.

[Linked Image]

It looks like this is the only difference and the plugs might need to be clearanced. Does anyone know if anything else is dimensionally different?

Also I contacted comp through email and they said cam lobe is setting in the correct area of lifter bore and that it should be slightly offset and by the picture it should be fine.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/04/21 07:31 PM

I'm guessing here:
The old sprocket and chain were a single row, not double.
The two threaded holes at the cam bearing are for later engines with a roller cam that used a thrust plate bolted to those two holes. The later roller cams had a step ground into the front of the cam to accept that thrust plate. That thrust plate limited the forward movement of the cam. In 87 they started to incorporate those two bolt holes into the blocks even though they still used a flat tappet cam. The later blocks that had a roller cam and the cam thrust plate also used a plastic timing cover.

The gear on the crank gets installed against the step in the crank, the harmonic damper when installed touches the crank gear and prevents it from moving forward.

My thinking is you need to clearance, as in grind away excess block to insure the gear doesn't rub the block. The back face of the cam gear limits travel rearward of the cam as it will rub the block around the front cam bearing. Cam shafts move forward when rotating when the engine is running. Typically without a thrust plate a cam button is used along with a metal timing cover. Look at the inside of you 305 timing cover for wear fron the cam rotation.

Kevin will be able to shed a lot more light on your problem. Turn the TV on to the golf channel and wait for his reply.
But I think to use the double tooth chain you need to get the grinder out.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/04/21 07:47 PM

Also ask Kevin about drill a very small hole in one of the galley plugs to spray oil directly onto the cam sprocket/chain. That was a mod we did to the last roller cammed ZZ4 I built.
Think it was a .030" hole, been 15 years since that build.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
As a senior in my golden years I've learned when something like that happens I do three 360 spins, sit down in a chair, turn on the golf channel and forget about the
problem until my mind clears. So been there, done that.
I always wondered about whether there really is a Bizarro World, where up is down and down is up.

It's been a couple years since degreeing the last cam. A friend with a 440 68 Dodge Dart just got another Isky cam, looks like I'll be degreeing that cam for him.
Oh boy.

Seems like a lot of work to freshen a 305 but I get it. Another friend with an 84SS did the same as you are doing, his car has about 27K on it. A set of Trick Flow heads, nor sure which cam, and pulled the CCC and installed a Sean Murphy carb, which we had problems with, and an old school HEI. My old Edel TES headers I sold him years ago are also installed on the car. The older SS had a TH 350, he found a used 2500 stall converter and installed that. Unfortunately with the Rona only one trip to the track to see how it ran was a disappointment, an ignition miss plagued him.

Many years ago the T56, 8 1/2" rear went in behind the original 305 in my 86. Only the TES headers with a very good 2 1/2" cat-back and some tweaking on the Qjet, all CCC still intact and the car went 14.9 @ 93.5 granny shifting my way down the 1/4. Not fast but a large increase from stock. So there is potential from the 305.

And getting your hand dirty on a good old SBC rebuild is not a bad thing, it's an education for any dinosaur oil fueled engine.

Keep pluggin away on it.

You also know you are lucky. To have a 88 SS that is in such a pristine condition to play with is a HUGE plus.
Bob


Bob,

Even though it was a little frustrating it was still enjoyable in a odd way, any time im learning something new its a good thing. I get why people don't get the 305 thing. Not for everyone but It was what I wanted to do. I think with a 18,000 mile short block its a good little amount of power for the money.

It would be interesting to see what your buddy's car would run. Out of curiosity what was the issue with the s.m.i. carb? I thought about going with a non ccc carb and distributor but thats going to far at the moment. It would clean some things up though.

Also I feel very lucky with the car I have . It is my 16 year old me dream car. I had a rough 87 ls monte when I was 16.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 05:47 AM

Yes you hate to throw away a low mileage shortblock these days. They are extremely hard to find, it's over 30 years old now. It's even hard to find a good Vortec 350 at the yard today.
As far as a SBC build goes my Dart 427 build will soon be 13 years old. Back then is when the LS started to take off as the choice for a hot rod. The LS7 was introduced as a wet sump crate about that time. Just couldn't hide the high price tag for that crate engine from my wife, plus the fuel system mods,dry sump system, no real good fitting headers available, clutches, no real easy programming available either. Cams, heads, and most everything for even an LS1 build were much higher priced parts compared to the old Gen1 SBC parts back then.

But as we know even the LS is being squeezed by the cars than run on a big battery. We will see the SBC parts being harder to have dropped at your door. My friend with the 440 decided to buy a new dist drive shaft for his cam install. He found they are drying up, he bought three cause they were clearanced, cheap.
I have no problem with someone building a SBC, still a good engine design.
The alum block of the LS is one of the big advantages of the install. There are a couple other things that make it an all around better engine, seals, taller deck height, better out of the box heads flow, not to mention FI with a smart PCM. All that comes at a cost.

You mentioned a 400 SBC Dart block build earlier. Looking at the that build and a comparable LS build for that 1.2-1.3 hp per CI I think today the LS would be the cheaper. Although as we know it's hard to build a really potent LS, 500 hp that makes a LOT of torque down low for cheap. Stock high performance LS engines from the junkers are hard to find for cheap, then there's all the misc install parts.
The Dart 400 SBC starts off expensive for just a shortblock, could be +4K with good parts, that's what I paid 15 years ago for that shortblock, with the Little M block. You can spend a pretty penny making 500 with a SBC, but so goes an LS if I was to build it.

As you go through this upgrade to the L69 you can get a good idea of what it takes to upgrade to an LS. Just about everything under the hood goes away by the time you've got an LS running. I would like having A/C, cruise control, and a few more details on an LS swap. Going the large cubic inch SBC upgrade, everything you reuse, even the water pump.

The other night I saw a Leno's Garage and he had the remake of the 63 Corvette Grand Sport on a U-Tube video. Company called Superformance produces them built to order, along with several other "replica" Ford race cars, Cobra, F40. Did i mention the engines in the new GS were Lingenfelter, one a new LT4 with the Lingenfelter touch. A video worth watching if you have nothing to do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjFcrhQNHd8
Both my son and I have replicas of the 63 GS Corvette, mine about 2" long, his about 6". As close to real we will ever get.

Enjoy the engine process, ask anytime, opinions are always worth hearing.
Bob

Oh, the Qjet problem on the 84SS, nozzle drip, high fuel pressure. Played with float level height, changed needle and seat, changed fuel pump, ultimately a regulator installed at the carb to drop pressure on the seat. We then get back to the quality thing, all needles and seats out of the bag are questionable.

Keep plugin away at the 305, Spring is just 74 days away.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 01:32 PM

A lot of work just for 30 seconds of grinding. Problem of resistance solved. I ended up not drilling oil galley plug. I think for my purpose it will be fine after doing some research and talking it over with Kevin.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 04:01 PM

I thought that would be the fix for clearance. Luckily you could do that while on the stand, some don't have that luxury.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 04:21 PM

The builder that put my engine together this last time caught the exact same issue with my block and corrected it the same way. The previous builder did not catch it and rub marks resulted...
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
I thought that would be the fix for clearance. Luckily you could do that while on the stand, some don't have that luxury.
Bob



That is very true, definitely a luxury with the engine out. I originally started this project that I was going to do the work with engine left in the car. Glad I didn't. Im only 40 but 6' tall and was not looking forward to being leaned over the fenders. After looking at the project I wanted to clean some things up and only a few more moves and I could have everything out. Im glad I did.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by SSLance
The builder that put my engine together this last time caught the exact same issue with my block and corrected it the same way. The previous builder did not catch it and rub marks resulted...


When I put the cam, gears, and timing chain together I rotated the engine and felt slight resistance but just figured it was drag from all the engine components. During disassembly I didnt really turn the engine over so no comparison to go off of. While I was going through my self inflicted problems on degreeing the cam and looking at how the lobes were centered in the lifter bores I slightly pulled the cam a little out while it was attached to everything. Went back to rotate and it was free about 2 or 3 rotations then had slight resistance again. Thats how I found out.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 04:45 PM

This is a email from cloyes concerning the timing chain. I think it would help for them to put this info in the paperwork provided with their product or with application info on the website. But it is what it is.

Brent

No it should fit as long as you are using a steel type cover and a factory flat tappet style cam. If you are using a roller cam and roller lifters you will need a different set and a cam retainer or cam button. Some of the newer blocks you might have to clearance the oil gallies slightly to give the chain pins clearance but it should not take much.

 Thanks,
____________________________

JOSH MAHFOUZ

Technical Support

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/05/21 06:55 PM

I really wouldn't want to change a cam in a Monte when the engine is in the car, but it's been done hundreds of times I'm sure. Rad and condenser would need to be removed and leaning over that pretty front end on your car would not be pleasant. My back aches just from thinking about that.

Glad you got some feedback from Cloyes. As noted that clearance issue should have been noted when they sell it.
I have the Cloyes hex-adjust timing set and a Cloyes timing cover. The timing cover had to milled and modified in several places to work with the Dart block. wasn't a bolt on!
Also I had to make a dist/oil pump shaft for the Dart block, a BBC shaft had to be shortened to my spec in order to have the proper endplay in the drive. These are just some of the many issues you have when you do aftermarket parts. Dart made no mention of that in there block instructions.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/06/21 02:01 AM

Finally received my speedhut air/fuel ratio gauge. I ordered it during Black Friday 20% off sale. I ordered the gauge blank off another site for $4. Looks nothing like the picture showed but its better than a open hole until I need another gauge.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/06/21 06:18 AM

Huh. That's the first time I've seen that coin tray/gauge pod. Looks like a nice part. Being a carbed car a vac gauge on the right would fill that void. Cars with 'puters don't need a vac gauge.
Bob
Posted By: Crusher

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/06/21 02:02 PM

https://www.dixierestorationdepot.com/Product/Detail.aspx?s=DM00625%20%20%20MEDDKGREY&d=1043
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/06/21 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Huh. That's the first time I've seen that coin tray/gauge pod. Looks like a nice part. Being a carbed car a vac gauge on the right would fill that void. Cars with 'puters don't need a vac gauge.
Bob




Yes, I looked at the vac gauge $168 from speedhut . Definitely will more than likely get it, just need to wait a little while to slide it by the wife. Haha. I ordered gauge pod through mikes montes. Seems like a quality piece, texture matches perfect.

https://www.mikesmontes.com/Console-Front-Gauge-Pod_p_2649.html

Also ordered this when I ordered the gauge pod. I will see how good it works. I hate putting fuel in the car with the license plate the way it is.

https://www.mikesmontes.com/Flip-Down-Stay-Down-Modification-Kit-for-Rear-Plate_p_1247.html
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/06/21 03:26 PM

Brent - Love your project and appreciate your discussion and documentation. Good info! Kevin is a Godsend! Working on my cam swap now with him moving the 383 from flat tappet to roller cam. I have 9 SpeedHut gauges, with wideband, vac and trans temp mounted under the dash in center, a few inches above yours. I think the vac is a good investment (assuming you don't have an issue with financial infidelity with your wife... hahaha). Keep posting.
Gordon.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/06/21 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by AkronAero
Brent - Love your project and appreciate your discussion and documentation. Good info! Kevin is a Godsend! Working on my cam swap now with him moving the 383 from flat tappet to roller cam. I have 9 SpeedHut gauges, with wideband, vac and trans temp mounted under the dash in center, a few inches above yours. I think the vac is a good investment (assuming you don't have an issue with financial infidelity with your wife... hahaha). Keep posting.
Gordon.


Gordon, I enjoy the forum and I have used it alot. Thankful for the many people that have posted through the years and documented their adventures, so I try to do my small part in giving back. If it helps atleast one person its worth it. Kevin is worth his weight in gold. Bob and Lance have also both steered me in the right direction when discussing issues.

I have to give my wife credit, out of all the projects I've tackled over time she has never really said much about the money part, but I like to think I do a pretty good job at pulling the reigns back when I get close to that line. It always helps if I stay on top of the projects she wants to do around the house. Now, I think you and Bob have talked me into that nice vacuum gauge. Lol. It will be alot easier installing 2 gauges at once instead of waiting to get the other and remove everything to install. Just like that I was able to reason with myself why I need it.
Posted By: CM1SCW

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/06/21 08:35 PM

Brent nice work you are doing. Just an update on my project kevin has all the old parts out, rack and pinion and new fuel tank in. They have the interior removed for tunnel mod. Kevin posts photos on his Facebook kevin riffey hot rods. Just thought I give you a status and hope to see yours later this year.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/07/21 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by CM1SCW
Brent nice work you are doing. Just an update on my project kevin has all the old parts out, rack and pinion and new fuel tank in. They have the interior removed for tunnel mod. Kevin posts photos on his Facebook kevin riffey hot rods. Just thought I give you a status and hope to see yours later this year.


Thank You Andrew. I saw it on there I think about a week ago. I already followed him and figured it was your car. Thats a great color combo (black,gold stripes,saddle interior). That will be one mean car when done. Thanks for the update and can't wait to see it when done.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/07/21 02:05 AM

Brent and Gordon, thanks for the Kudos. Glad to be able to help those on the board when I can - especially those that give back to the community!

I’m very interested in Brent’s build log and results. There have been a couple magazine builds of 305s with Vortec and the better flowing TrickFlow heads that delivered very good results. He’s doing all the right things and I’m expecting him to be very happy with the outcome. I’m sure he will enjoy it while he works toward developing his 400 build.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/07/21 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
I think you and Bob have talked me into that nice vacuum gauge. Lol. It will be alot easier installing 2 gauges at once instead of waiting to get the other and remove everything to install. Just like that I was able to reason with myself why I need it.


LOL, there are some enablers on here - that's meant in the best possible way, as I consider myself one!

I might would have to call SpeedHut and ask them why their vacuum only gauge seems priced on the high side. Their pricing on the Boost/Vacuum combination gauge seem to be reasonably priced, but their vacuum only gauge is over twice what Autometer gets for theirs. Never know, as a repeat customer they might cut you a break. Worst they can say is bug off and you're still no worse off than you started.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/07/21 04:17 AM

Still, you get the separately adjustable needle and backlight plus high/low alarm light....
Wiring is a pain esp with 9 gauges. I told Speedhut they need micro connector block (terminal strip) to consolidate it all. I am happy with them but see why others drop in Dakota Digitals.

Speaking of enablers, I would not have tackled the restomod without this site and input from Lance and many others who started me down this rabbit hole. And I definitely would not be tearing into a nearly new 500+ hp 383 if you hadn't been there Kevin to feed my addiction! Why they ask? Because I can! Thanks to all.
What's next Brent?
Gordon
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/08/21 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Originally Posted by CM1SCW
Brent nice work you are doing. Just an update on my project kevin has all the old parts out, rack and pinion and new fuel tank in. They have the interior removed for tunnel mod. Kevin posts photos on his Facebook kevin riffey hot rods. Just thought I give you a status and hope to see yours later this year.


Thank You Andrew. I saw it on there I think about a week ago. I already followed him and figured it was your car. Thats a great color combo (black,gold stripes,saddle interior). That will be one mean car when done. Thanks for the update and can't wait to see it when done.

[Linked Image]



Looks similar to a black MFP interceptor from Mad Max 1.

I also had fuel pressure issues with my SMI rebuilt CCC Qjet. Installed a fuel pressurd regulator and fixed everything and now have finer control over the fuel mixture dwell. Nobody seems to make mechcanical fuel pumps with the correct fuel pressure anymore. Probably every carb engine will need regulators installed anymore.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/08/21 01:03 PM

I put one of the heads on to check piston to valve clearance and pushrod length. Really should be no worries about piston to valve clearance but figured I would take the extra time and check it. Also decided to take the extra time and try both methods of checking pushrod length (half-lift center method and witness mark method). I also checked pushrod length with the solid lifter. After some discussion with Kevin we decided to check with the flat tappet hydraulic lifter because there was a .050 difference in seat height between the two lifters and the check springs should not have enough on them to preload the lifter.

Half-lift center line method

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Witness mark method

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While doing this I kept coming up with different readings. I noticed that the pushrod tool was catching the guide plate as you can see in the half-lift picture. So I removed the guide plate and noticed it was making contact with the head.

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The heads are advertised as recommended 1.6 ratio rocker and 5/16 pushrod. I checked the pushrod tool and it was .313. Im going to move to the next cylinder over and see if issues continue. Try another rocker and a few other things. Also try to call trick flow to see if they have any know issues. I tried calling them yesterday atleast 5 times. I would sit on hold for 10 minutes then the system would hang up on me. Then I tried leaving a voice-mail but it was full. I guess try to email them. If anyone has anything to try just let me know.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/09/21 05:48 AM

Man you would hope it's not time to get out the die grinder again. The 1.6 rocker would move the pushrod closer at the point. But you would think Trick Flow would know that and allowed for it. A sigh of compassion.

Had something like that with valve train parts on the AFR heads. Checking stem contact realized the 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers where close to hitting the spring retainer. Should be .050" to be safe at all points in lift, had zero. Sent them back to Summit and had to go Crane Gold which had plenty of clearance.

Several years later had three valves where the keepers were failing. The retainer was sliding up on the valve stem. Luckily the ticking noise from the valvetrain told to pull the valve covers before dropping valves. Called AFR and got new stem seal "for my heads", Manley keepers and replaced everything. Turned out AFR sent me 8 mm seals instead of the older 5/16" seals, .027" difference in stem size, Yes I should have caught that. When you install new seals with the heads on the engine, valves in head, you put a plastic sleeve over the stem to protect the seal from getting cut by the stem's keeper grooves. Never realized it was wrong seals when installing. Found that out when I couldn't stop the smoking on a trip to Carlisle. Opps, AFR bad. Take it apart again and do the correct seals.

Later upgraded to PSI beehive springs, tool steel retainers and new keepers and seals again. Because the heads are 15 years old, having 5/16" stems instead of the newer 8 mm valves and when they are combined with the tool steel retainer's for an LS7 fitment odd keepers need to be used. Putting that collection of parts together wasn't easy, required some researching the Manley catalog.
Very soon time to do an R&R on that expensive valve train.

I think your contact pattern is very good. I found some black magic marker on the stem works well, just make sure you check a few intakes and exhausts. And lifter should be the one you are going to use. When you throw aftermarket parts on an engine you shouldn't take things for granite. I like misspelling that word.
Pushrod length required can change from a lot of different parts. Even milling a set of heads and doing a valve job where the seat is sunk a little will effect stem contact.

Out of the box heads quality I've read you need to not assume everything is hunky-dory. Besides alum chips being present there was a question of valve sealing.
The PITA would be removing the valves without damaging the brand new seals to inspect the seat sealing. You could blue the seats and spin the valves and have a good idea of seat contact. Maybe Kevin could elaborate on that, whether he see's that as necessary.

Keep after it.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/09/21 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Man you would hope it's not time to get out the die grinder again. The 1.6 rocker would move the pushrod closer at the point. But you would think Trick Flow would know that and allowed for it. A sigh of compassion.

Had something like that with valve train parts on the AFR heads. Checking stem contact realized the 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers where close to hitting the spring retainer. Should be .050" to be safe at all points in lift, had zero. Sent them back to Summit and had to go Crane Gold which had plenty of clearance.

Several years later had three valves where the keepers were failing. The retainer was sliding up on the valve stem. Luckily the ticking noise from the valvetrain told to pull the valve covers before dropping valves. Called AFR and got new stem seal "for my heads", Manley keepers and replaced everything. Turned out AFR sent me 8 mm seals instead of the older 5/16" seals, .027" difference in stem size, Yes I should have caught that. When you install new seals with the heads on the engine, valves in head, you put a plastic sleeve over the stem to protect the seal from getting cut by the stem's keeper grooves. Never realized it was wrong seals when installing. Found that out when I couldn't stop the smoking on a trip to Carlisle. Opps, AFR bad. Take it apart again and do the correct seals.

Later upgraded to PSI beehive springs, tool steel retainers and new keepers and seals again. Because the heads are 15 years old, having 5/16" stems instead of the newer 8 mm valves and when they are combined with the tool steel retainer's for an LS7 fitment odd keepers need to be used. Putting that collection of parts together wasn't easy, required some researching the Manley catalog.
Very soon time to do an R&R on that expensive valve train.

I think your contact pattern is very good. I found some black magic marker on the stem works well, just make sure you check a few intakes and exhausts. And lifter should be the one you are going to use. When you throw aftermarket parts on an engine you shouldn't take things for granite. I like misspelling that word.
Pushrod length required can change from a lot of different parts. Even milling a set of heads and doing a valve job where the seat is sunk a little will effect stem contact.

Out of the box heads quality I've read you need to not assume everything is hunky-dory. Besides alum chips being present there was a question of valve sealing.
The PITA would be removing the valves without damaging the brand new seals to inspect the seat sealing. You could blue the seats and spin the valves and have a good idea of seat contact. Maybe Kevin could elaborate on that, whether he see's that as necessary.

Keep after it.
Bob



Like I told Kevin the other day, if it was easy everyone would do it. I agree that trick flow should add more clearance in that area seeing that the recommended rocker is 1.6. I might have to break out the die grinder. I have no problem grinding the heads and I would probably just set the guide plates up on the old Bridgeport mill I have access too. Might be a little easier.

I dont really understand why trick flow says that the half lift method is more accurate and the one you should use. I tried both ways and I like the witness mark better but thats just me.

One thing I have learned with this whole engine building/aftermarket thing is to double check, then triple check. Just like the piston to valve clearance yes it was fine but what if not.

Are all 1.6 rockers created equal dimensionally? I drew this picture, excuse my eraser marks as I was thinking it out in my head as I was drawing. If dimensions 1 or 2 were different it could make a difference? At some point today I'm going to call Kevin and work through this and look at my options. If any one has a thought about it I would like to hear it also.

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I thought about ordering these tfs rockers just to see if there is a difference. I usually can order from summit and get them the next day. If not I could just return them.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-31400513


One thing I don't understand is trick flow says you will need a longer pushrod than stock (7.800) which clears the guide plate and pushrod slot. Everything ive checked to get the right geometry i will need shorter (roughly around 7.700) to get my witness mark in the center of valve tip.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/09/21 07:26 PM

I should clarify. Does anyone know if different rockers have different dimensions as far as between the solid and dotted line?

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Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/09/21 08:11 PM

I have a damaged Crane 1.6 rocker in a box at my shop but not able to access it for a while. That would be an easy rocker to measure. Looked at several rockers manufactures and other than ratio no one seems to tell you what the actual measurements are. A stock stamped rocker would be much harder to check, and they seem to vary several hundredths of a point in ratio.

My thinking is the Y is a standard length and the X is where you change the ratio. A quick guess would be a SBC 1.6 is .050" shorter at X than a 1.5 using 1.25" as Y.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/09/21 10:09 PM

I texted him earlier - I measured a set of new-old-stock Crane 1.6 rockers I had left over from my old speed shop.
I measured y at 1.408 and x at 0.8785 = 1.6027. Pretty sure Crane's target was and it probably is 1.4 and 0.875 = 1.6.

As far as 1 and 2 in the diagram. I'm pretty sure their relation wouldn't make a difference in the ratio generated, However, looking and doing the best measuring I could, it appears that the bottom of the roller tip and the flat part of the pushrod cup is parallel to the flat portion of the rocker pad fulcrum. That would make sense to me but if that really doesn't matter, I could definitely see where that would affect how high or low the rocker sat on the stud and subsequent pushrod length. I'd have to do some research or think a lot harder than I'd want to stress my brain to figure out all that smile.

Anyway, just spoke to Brent and he's measured y and x on his rockers at 1.38 and 0.85 for a 1.623 ratio. So it appears there are some fractional differences between brands of rockers. He's thinking that extra 0.025" or so may be enough to clear the heads - still would need to clearance the guides for .010" clearance, but that would be easy enough. Don't want to infringe on his post, but it looks like he's going to order some TFS narrow body rockers to see how they work out. At least that way TFS can't say it's because he's not using their rockers. Hopefully they'll work out for him.

Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/10/21 02:14 AM

You are not infringing at all. I enjoy the open dialog and this might help someone. That one guy will be looking for answers to his problem and stumble across this.

So we came up with 3 options. At the end of the day this is not a huge problem and can be worked around. Alot of times when I first come across a problem it seems like a mountain but after research and talking it over with someone and a night of tossing it around In the brain it just becomes a mole hill. Numerous people have came across this same problem. Its all good experience.

1. I ordered the above tfs 1.6 rockers . As it seems there is quite a bit of variance in rocker arms. Interesting article https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1305-rocker-arm-comparo/
See what we come up with. If no change send them back to summit.

2. See what Trick flow says after trying their rocker arm. Who knows what they might say.

3. Pull valves, lap valves, check all machine work, then if all is well break out the grinder and throw the guide plates on the bridgeport.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/10/21 06:38 AM

I think ratio may change a very small amount on roller rockers as they travel from 0 to full lift. But a stock rocker with a pallet instead of a roller the ratio will change a fair amount. Another advantage of the roller rocker. It's probably difficult to get a good Y and X measurement off your old stock rockers.

Brent another thing to check. If reusing the stock valve cover make sure the rockers aren't going to rub the PCV baffling inside the covers. Going to a narrow body rocker should insure the rockers don't touch the baffles. The stock baffling is very good at separating air/oil and potential oil pulled into the PCV. Reusing the stock valve covers on this build would be a good idea. To many aftermarket covers lack any notable baffling.

Some of the high flowing SBC heads splay the valves, move them apart to allow a larger diameter valve, usually intake. Moving the intake away from the exhaust will change the angle of the rocker, it will need to rotate a little to align to the center of the valve stem, so rocker stud is also moved away from the exhaust stud. Guide plates help you align the whole mess.
On a SBC intakes are paired together so the distance between rocker arms gets closer by two, say .050"x2. Throw a fat rocker arm on and not much room for baffles. Been that whole route with valve covers selection.

Had four sets of very expensive aftermarket valve covers test fitting them on my build, engine on the stand. One fabricated cover was baffled like stock and would not fit between the rockers, one had no baffling, another wanted you use a rubber baffle "tube", the GMPP covers had a just a piece of alum across the opening. And all of those covers were in conflict with either the A/C compressor, EGR, throttle/cruise. All were returned to sender.
Ended up having a set fabricated to my height specs. They came sans any PVC openings. Stealing GM's baffle design reduced their size in alum and TIGed them in. Before they got all oily had them black anodize locally.
One of the most unusual valve cover around and guaranteed a candidate for most expensive set. Nobody sees them on an all black engine. But they physically fit and PCV works great.
Why did i bring all that up. IF you go bigger SBC later and have that need to go faster valvetrain, heads is a big part of the build. Heads as you found out can throw you a curveball. While getting you hand dirty now it easier to see how aftermarket parts effect each other. So even pretty valve covers can cause issues. Baffles are part of the build. A good PVC system is a big plus whether carbed or injected.

Rocker arm studs. You can manipulate the guide plates to align the pushrods. The threaded hole for the studs may or may not be blind, Thread sealant on your final install may be necessary.

Question. header gaskets and bolts with the new heads?
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/10/21 03:46 PM

This is the set of valve covers im using.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-00-SB...362383295?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

They seem good quality, everything was flat and true so we will see. When I first got them I test fit them with all the rockers on the head and everything cleared. They have the baffles in them. Once all the bugs are worked out on the heads and valve train im going to try the stock valve covers, I didnt realize rockers would ride so low. I dont plan on having egr or cruise control. If I run the tall valve covers it looks like I might be alright but I might have to run a little longer ac belt.

Header gaskets im using

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pte-h7585

Probably not the best gasket but my headers are raised weld oval, heads are d port. Difficult to find a gasket to fit the the headers i have.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pte-h8096

High collar lock washers

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-4710

And header bolts

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-1209
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/10/21 05:28 PM

Yep a tall valve cover and compressor clearance can be a problem. I "stretched" the compressor locating bracket outward 1 1/4" to get more clearance for my taller than stock but shorter than the tall covers sold. That allows the cover to be pulled without removing the compressor. I don't need to run a stud girdle on the heads, the reason for the really tall covers. But needed more room for the valve train. Have a few set of stock height covers that just wouldn't work. Some of the covers sold have an angle on the front corner to clear the compressor, most won't work with big rocker arms.

Matching the D port head to a header that compromises it's flange contact has caused some to hate headers, Sealing at the head to header flange can be a continuous fight. Ask Lance. Nothing more annoying than a tick from a leaking gasket there.
Have used the Fel Pro 1404 gasket, ARP stainless bolts, no lock washer, Never-sez (alum heads) and haven't touched the header bolts in years. Once you go through the bolts a 1/2 dozen times snugging then after the initial start up they haven't needed touched since.

Another option for annoying header flange leaking is to use the FelPro MS9275B that is sold for stock heads and cast iron manifolds. When I had the TES headers on the 305 I had to resort to them.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/10/21 09:44 PM

I ran 3.5" tall "squared" valve covers (Moroso 68415) on the SS with the factory air. I was lucky enough to find a belt that fit perfectly with the compressor maxed out on the bracket. I don't remember the procedure, but I could loosen the brackets to move the compressor out of the way enough to remove the covers for valve lash checks/adjustments. I do remember I never loosen the top bolts on the compressor and would just tighten the bracket back up to put the tension back on the belt. It wasn't all that bad considering the benefit of having AC on a daily driver.

The covers that Brent bought are 3 3/8" tall (0.125" shorter than what I ran) but I noticed the other day that the head's instructions said the valve cover rails were raised 0.300". If not for that I'd think his new covers would clear - now it might be questionable. Best I remember I had maybe 0.25" wiggle room - so hopefully they'll clear.

Oh, I did have to run the really thick valve covers to be able to have enough room to run the PCV with the stud girdles - so thinner gaskets may end up being the key for clearance.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/11/21 02:06 AM

Brent, Bob and Kevin - a further question on exhaust gaskets...
I am running a 383 with AFR 1036s (195cc and straight plugs) mated to Hooker Comp full length headers.(2451-2HKR 1-5/8" in 16ga 304 SS which calculates to 1.495" ID).
Had some problems getting a good seal when we put this together 8 years ago and settled on two (unknown) aluminum gaskets on each side.
Pulled to replace cam and lifters and found carbon on flange faces showing poor fit of gasket to headers and some leakage, primarily at the extreme ends where the gaskets are very narrow.
* AFR exhaust is listed as "square" and then as 1.46" H x 1.56" W; raised 0.10"
* Hooker tubes are somewhat squared and welds not uniform in thickness so coverage not consistent although generally adequate except the ends....
* AFR recommends Fel-Pro 1404 (as Bob mentioned) with 1.5" x 1.5" holes - as with my current gaskets they are thin at the ends: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1404
* Hooker recommends their Hooker Super Comp 10808HKR - Hole is 1.34" H x 1.34" W and has more meat at the ends; https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hok-10808hkr
Would you recommend the Fel-Pro 1404s? Or go for the Hooker gasket with the meatier ends? And if so would the smaller holes (1.34" sq) cause much restriction?
Any sealant suggested?
Thanks in advance,
Gordon
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/11/21 04:54 AM

Gordon, I've been using Mr. Gasket Ultra Seal header and collector gaskets for many years. Before using them I had constant problems with header gaskets. Tried them all (at that time and nothing else seemed to work). Headers overlapping the cylinder head ports have been a pet peeve of mine since day one. Hardly any of them make a true "same as (exhaust) port" or square flange - makes no sense to me other than I'm sure the extra step in shaping the tubing would increase costs (which I for one would be willing to pay).

I was looking for a part number on the Mr. Gaskets that looked like would mate up to your heads and ran across a new-to-me (Remflex) headers gasket. Never seen as high a rating for header gaskets before. They're thick graphite gaskets and have one that is specifically for AFR heads that match your cylinder head ports perfectly. The end bolt holes are not notched and appears to have the extra meat you're talking about. Think I would have to try them. They also look like they have one for the Dart heads I'm running with the slightly wider centered bolt holes that I always have to modify on all other gaskets. Just might try them myself.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rfl-2081
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/11/21 07:16 AM

Nice find Kevin. Will buy a set just to have on hand, cheap enough for a possible fix for a hundred year problem, header seal. Their catalog is extensive.
http://catalog.remflex.com/

Gordon, no experience with other than the Felpro 1404. The 1404 set I used to break the headers in before the black Jethot a decade ago are still under the bench in case they need to be called up in an emergency.

My AFR 210 heads are old and can't verify the exhaust port opening size, 76cc, angle plug, also a raised port, memory says .100". They recommend a 1405, I run the smaller 1404 to suit my flange rather than port. Running, believe it or not, a Hooker 2050 emissions header/crossover pipe, cat back. They are a 1 3/4" shorty but quality I consider excellent. They are a major reason for the seal at the flanges. I did draw file the flanges before install to remove high spots. The rigidity created between the left and right headers when connected by a HD crossover pipe prevents anything from moving. Long tubes have 8' of pipe hanging off the collector, it stresses the header flange, also how you hang an exhaust system plays a big part.

I look at gasket overlap in the port exit as a problem but it's a necessary compromise most times. As Kevin said the problem is pretty much every out of the box header flange is not a good port match for whatever head you run. You pay well over a grand for custom headers to have that luxury.

You could also trim gaskets to fit to minimize overlap/ maintain seal. I use a hand nibbler. On those same AFR 210 intake gaskets are a PITA, they said to use 1206, way to big for the head intake ports and way to big for most street intake manifold openings. With a nibbler the top black area of the Felpro 1205 is removed to raise the gasket opening to the blue seal. The gasket now matches the port. The intake was then port matched to the modified 1205. The intake manifold sealing area at the top of the port was compromised after that port matching. Eventually TIGed 3/16" alum filler to add sealing area above all 8 areas. And had the intake faces milled to better match the head angles.
Again same thing, adapting and making the best of a collection of aftermarket engine parts.

If running an O2 sensor for any reason upstream leaks will effect the O2 output. Header seal leaks should be zero.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/11/21 12:17 PM

So here is kind of a comparison with the stock vs. tall stock valve cover. I should be able to run my stock covers but I will have to wait till ive decided on all the valve train. As of now the stock valve covers seem to clear everything. The trick flows have a pretty good sized lip.

[Linked Image]

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I only ran my headers probably 200 miles and I could hear a slight tick. When pulling them off this is what I found.

[Linked Image]

I made a 3 bolt cover plate with a small psi gauge and a schrader valve. Before I put the rockers on while all the valves were closed I was going bolt the headers to the heads, pressurize a small amount and see if I could find a way to fix where it was leaking. Might not even worry about it now and just order the remflex gasket. They make one for my headers oval with raised weld. Good find Kevin, they also have all 5 star reviews. Thanks for bringing this subject up Gordon, at some point I was going to get there but now I can order them and already have them waiting.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rfl-2032

Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/11/21 04:06 PM

Where else can one find this level of free expertise and sharing? The Remflex is 0.125" as compared to others at 0.06" (1/8" vs 1/16"), and like Brent I will buy/install this later this month. Brent - keep us posted on the fitment. Bob - thanks for the link too. Kevin - thanks for digging in as you always do! Wish you were 900 miles closer.
Gordon
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/11/21 07:35 PM

They say the Remflex crush to 1/16" when installed which is a plus. Also they sell gasket sheet stock to make your own gaskets. There have been times when I had to find a comparable product for other high temp uses.

Brent with the raised lip on the new heads and those very tall valve covers stock compressor location will be a problem. One nice thing about the raised lips is puddling of oil next to the rails will help get oil away from the cover gaskets in the back corners. Most would be surprised at how much oil is laying in the heads when the engine is running.The large OD valve springs, 1.550", that came on my AFR heads really narrows down that channel for drain back, almost dams it x 8.

Are the headers off the car right now? I would straight edge the flanges and knock any high spots off the flanges.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/12/21 01:12 AM

Got the new tfs rockers arms in to try. Im going to go out on a limb and say they were made at the same factory. Dead same measurements so that did not solve anything. They will be headed back to summit.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Waiting to see what Trick Flow says. They wanted more pictures and videos so we shall see. I did get the lapping compound when I ordered the rockers. Checked a few more areas. The pushrod tip would not even go in the cup. This is cylinder #1.

[Linked Image]

Cylinder #7

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/12/21 03:46 AM

Gettin kinda frustrating ain't it. Hang in there, eventually it all works out.

And as we know in today's marketplace you need to check and double check parts, take nothing for granted.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/12/21 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Gettin kinda frustrating ain't it. Hang in there, eventually it all works out.

And as we know in today's marketplace you need to check and double check parts, take nothing for granted.
Bob


It is frustrating but it helps me for down the road.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/12/21 06:52 PM

Not sure what the final solution will be with some of the machine work but a guy I talked to at Trick flow felt that in my original pictures that my sweep was to wide. He felt that I should try a much longer pushrod which would push the sweep mark to the exhaust side of the valve but it would be a more narrow sweep. It also would allow the extra room for pushrod clearance.
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/12/21 07:53 PM

(Anyone know how I can copy/paste a previously-posted image here?)

Hi Brent - I'm in the process of ever-so-gradually forgetting my ICE-building experiences since even my most recent one is about 10 years ago, but I can say this about the side view of the rocker arm in your post #1069139:

The rocker ratio is not y/x. On the valve side, construct a virtual line along the valve's axis of symmetry upwardly. Ditto on the pushrod side. The perpendicular distance between each line and the axis of rotation of the arm defines the effective moment arm of that side. The ratio of the valve-side moment arm to the pushrod-side moment arm defines the rocker ratio.

An immediate consequence of this construction method yields a surprise: the rocker ratio isn't constant, but varies continuously as a function of valve lift (or pushrod lift: take your pick.) I believe the nominal rocker ratio is defined at zero valve lift, but I don't have certain knowledge of this.

I remember concerning a set of World Product heads I had, that I studied the sweep pattern of the rocker roller across the valve stem face throughout the valve lift range, and determined that for minimum valve guide wear, adjusting the pushrod length alone wouldn't suffice. So I had the heads machined to displace the rocker studs 0.050" inboard. World Products was surprised by this and asked to see proof, so I furnished it. Never heard back from them, unsurprisingly...

Anyway, if you adjust pushrod length for centering the wipe range on the valve stem face, you won't be far off. But neither will you be exactly on. Some builders say to center the contact at 2/3 valve lift, and I think this tends to get closer, but I can't get more specific without knowing the cam profile and the spring restoring force. But basically, if the guide is made from cast bronze that's machined, and if the guide gets a good oil supply, and if you adjust pushrod length for outcome (choose your paradigm,) you should be OK for the life of the engine.

Best,
MAP




Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/12/21 08:49 PM

I thought one of the reasons to have the rocker's roller on the top of the valve stem to move equally inboard and outboard from center of the stem was to minimize the side loading of the valve stem in the valve guide.
It seems moving the pattern outboard would cause a higher side load on the stem.

Regard to the rocker ratio changing as it goes through lift.
http://performancetrends.com/Definitions/Rocker-Ratio.htm

My friend with the 305 and Twisted heads is stopping by later to drop off another damn plastic plenum the wife's 02 SS. He works at NAPA. Replaced it once already, hot antifreeze and garbage Dorman plastic plenum, not a good mix. Will ask if he had pushrod issues with his heads.
Bob
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/13/21 12:19 AM

Hi Bob - That diagram is physically and graphically wrong. I expected better from - is his name Gertner (+/-)? I used his "Engine Analyzer Pro" for years.

OK, looks like I need to post a sketch...

(7 minutes later) let's see if this works (credit for the original picture to the link Bob provided):

[Linked Image]

I need to explain a bit of a subtlety: I've shown the valve in its closed position, with the roller tip contacting the valve stem face inboard of the valve stem CL, just as we'd expect. The moment arm isn't referenced exactly to the valve stem CL, but to a line parallel to it that contains the point where the roller tip contacts the valve stem face. The difference is small but still significant.

Ok - correction - found it: Performance Trends is Kevin Gertgen.

Notwithstanding all of the foregoing, what Kevin wrote about rocker ratio changing throughout the lift range is exactly correct.

Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/13/21 03:31 AM

Now you see why crate engines are so popular... laugh Sorry, couldn't resist. wink

Stay after it, you'll get it figured out. It sucks that we (the paying customers) have to be the guinea pigs and trial and error folks for the parts manufacturers anymore but it happens over and over and over again it seems.

Oh, and those rockers are identical for sure which is very interesting to me.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/13/21 04:32 AM

Trick Flow is actually owned by Summit Racing, as are several other companies.
In the aftermarket business, many suppliers use the same manufacturer, which makes perfect economical sense.
Not unusual to have one guys parts in a competitors product line, rebranded, to complete their offering.
Gordon
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/13/21 07:40 AM

Looking at the math again of the rocker. Using Kevin's rounded off measurements from the Crane Gold 1.6 rocker, 1.4" valve side and .875" pushrod, side to produce a 1.6 ratio. Using that same 1.4" to create a 1.5 ratio that numbers becomes .933". that would mean that the pushrod has moved .058" closer to the head at that point of contact. That's a lot. Using Brent's 1.38" and .85" for his 1.6 then a 1.5 would be .92", that .070"
Just can't understand the logic of them not making a 1.5 or 1.6 rocker an easy install, it's done all the time. It's just another 23 degree head, the lift at 1.6 is .470", standard base circle, standard lifter, why all the problems.

Couple reads about others having the same pushrod clearance problems.

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32034

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/16pushrodtoheadclearance.php

https://www.460ford.com/threads/pics-of-tfs-street-head-pushrod-clearance-problem.110445/

Talked to my friend with the 305 SS, not Trick Flow heads, Dart iron so no help. He's wondering the same thing, why is this so complicated.

Just another side note. Did you eliminate the EGR? If memory serves me the 305 EGR system dumps into the intake plenum somewhere, there is a port. Insure there are no leaks when closing off the intake gaskets and hole left by the EGR removal. A pipe plug was installed in my intake plenum to insure no vacuum leak possible.
When taller valve covers are used the EGR will interfere with the valve cover. Test fit if reusing the stock covers, if losing the EGR insure no possible vac leak.

Those 5746 head gaskets are .040" and are for a 4.125" bore, I would think gasket for the small 305 bore, 3.74", should be used. Like either the Mahle 3514SG which is 3.86".
One of the things you try to do is improve on the quench. Typically a SBC from the factory will have the piston .025-.030" down in the hole at TDC. That is deck height. Now add the thickness of the head gasket at .040" and the piston to head clearance at TDC is in the neighborhood of .070". The clearance for the quench to be OK should be in the low .040s. Because you can't decrease the deck height gasket thickness is the only other way to improve quench. For alum head the norm is .040 gaskets. Not really much choice other than a .040".

Just throwing more stuff out there to confuse ya.
Bob
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/13/21 08:46 PM

A side detour to the exhaust gasket discussion, if you continue to have problems, that graphite material has been around for a while and is pretty easy to work with. Look up a local gasket making shop and see if they have any scraps you can have, or if they can sell you a piece of it to make your own.
Get extra material if you can, the stuff without a steel shim is very easy to work with, but it is also very easy to bend and break. You can cut it with a butter knife (not recommended, of course), and bolt holes can be made with a punch on semi-rigid material like rubber sheet or maybe cardboard, or just hit it with a drill if you can hold it steady. They are quite fragile, but crush and seal well and can take almost any conditions. Get it locally, since it comes in sheets that can't bend. Buying online is probably expensive given how hard it is to handle, so local should take a good chunk of cost out of it. I think we used to get it in 4'x4' sheets sandwiched between plywood and banded together when I worked at a gasket shop in college, and had to be super careful receiving, stocking, and handling it. I'd guess that the ready made ones have a stainless shim in them to give some strength, but it pretty much eliminates the ability to easily cut one yourself at home.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/13/21 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by SSLance
Now you see why crate engines are so popular... laugh Sorry, couldn't resist. wink

Stay after it, you'll get it figured out. It sucks that we (the paying customers) have to be the guinea pigs and trial and error folks for the parts manufacturers anymore but it happens over and over and over again it seems.

Oh, and those rockers are identical for sure which is very interesting to me.


Yes Lance I have thought about the crate engine thing quite a few times the last few days or why didn't I just leave it stock but what fun would either of those be. Lol.

I have lost a lot of confidence in the aftermarket the last couple of weeks. I get that there can be problems with matching different components but I feel both issues I have had could have been avoided. Now to see what comes of them.

Originally Posted by AkronAero
Trick Flow is actually owned by Summit Racing, as are several other companies.
In the aftermarket business, many suppliers use the same manufacturer, which makes perfect economical sense.
Not unusual to have one guys parts in a competitors product line, rebranded, to complete their offering.
Gordon


Both in Tallmadge. Just like the holley, speedhut, and nos gauges are all the same along with lots of other parts.


Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Looking at the math again of the rocker. Using Kevin's rounded off measurements from the Crane Gold 1.6 rocker, 1.4" valve side and .875" pushrod, side to produce a 1.6 ratio. Using that same 1.4" to create a 1.5 ratio that numbers becomes .933". that would mean that the pushrod has moved .058" closer to the head at that point of contact. That's a lot. Using Brent's 1.38" and .85" for his 1.6 then a 1.5 would be .92", that .070"
Just can't understand the logic of them not making a 1.5 or 1.6 rocker an easy install, it's done all the time. It's just another 23 degree head, the lift at 1.6 is .470", standard base circle, standard lifter, why all the problems.

Couple reads about others having the same pushrod clearance problems.

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32034

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/16pushrodtoheadclearance.php

https://www.460ford.com/threads/pics-of-tfs-street-head-pushrod-clearance-problem.110445/

Talked to my friend with the 305 SS, not Trick Flow heads, Dart iron so no help. He's wondering the same thing, why is this so complicated.

Just another side note. Did you eliminate the EGR? If memory serves me the 305 EGR system dumps into the intake plenum somewhere, there is a port. Insure there are no leaks when closing off the intake gaskets and hole left by the EGR removal. A pipe plug was installed in my intake plenum to insure no vacuum leak possible.
When taller valve covers are used the EGR will interfere with the valve cover. Test fit if reusing the stock covers, if losing the EGR insure no possible vac leak.

Those 5746 head gaskets are .040" and are for a 4.125" bore, I would think gasket for the small 305 bore, 3.74", should be used. Like either the Mahle 3514SG which is 3.86".
One of the things you try to do is improve on the quench. Typically a SBC from the factory will have the piston .025-.030" down in the hole at TDC. That is deck height. Now add the thickness of the head gasket at .040" and the piston to head clearance at TDC is in the neighborhood of .070". The clearance for the quench to be OK should be in the low .040s. Because you can't decrease the deck height gasket thickness is the only other way to improve quench. For alum head the norm is .040 gaskets. Not really much choice other than a .040".

Just throwing more stuff out there to confuse ya.
Bob


If I remember correctly we decided on the 5746 because it has a compressed thickness of .026 and its 4.100 with a volume of 5.4, the 3514sg is .045, 3.840, with a volume of 8.4. Not sure why the Summit link says .040 and 4.1125. Jegs and Mahle catalog both have the 5746 at the numbers I just listed. I will check when I get a chance. Kevin sent me this its from the mahle 2020 catalog.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/13/21 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by Hunter79764
A side detour to the exhaust gasket discussion, if you continue to have problems, that graphite material has been around for a while and is pretty easy to work with. Look up a local gasket making shop and see if they have any scraps you can have, or if they can sell you a piece of it to make your own.
Get extra material if you can, the stuff without a steel shim is very easy to work with, but it is also very easy to bend and break. You can cut it with a butter knife (not recommended, of course), and bolt holes can be made with a punch on semi-rigid material like rubber sheet or maybe cardboard, or just hit it with a drill if you can hold it steady. They are quite fragile, but crush and seal well and can take almost any conditions. Get it locally, since it comes in sheets that can't bend. Buying online is probably expensive given how hard it is to handle, so local should take a good chunk of cost out of it. I think we used to get it in 4'x4' sheets sandwiched between plywood and banded together when I worked at a gasket shop in college, and had to be super careful receiving, stocking, and handling it. I'd guess that the ready made ones have a stainless shim in them to give some strength, but it pretty much eliminates the ability to easily cut one yourself at home.


Thanks for the heads up.
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/14/21 12:24 AM

About crate engines, a lot depends on who's doing the crating. It's always been true that most aftermarket hotrodding companies were started by enthusiasts first, technicians second, and engineers a distant third, if at all. My experience is that the quality of engineering is often poor, and design for robustness, miserable. It seems these people were thinking, "If gets down the strip once in one piece, the design is proven. Ship it."

I'm not saying this is true for all companies, and thankfully the situation isn't as bad as it used to be, but when I think of the thousands of dollars I wasted over the years due to poor quality engineering, let's just say an indelible mark has been left. If you want to call this hyperbole, so be it...

I'd shop from a company with a long history of producing quality products, who backs their products with a good warranty, and has a good BBB (or similar) rating. The downside of this is that you'll probably spend more money than you'd like. But my philosophy is to spend more to do it right once, than to spend less, roll the dice, and probably do it twice. Or three times. Or...

If you assemble your engine using parts you source from different manufacturers, the job is tougher since you need to do this for each supplier, and the chain is still only a strong as its weakest link.

About common parts from the same OEM: these bulk houses are often overseas. That doesn't necessarily make them worse, but I don't generally trust them as much as a proven domestic supplier. Again, the cost is likely to be higher.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/14/21 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by MAP
About crate engines, a lot depends on who's doing the crating. It's always been true that most aftermarket hotrodding companies were started by enthusiasts first, technicians second, and engineers a distant third, if at all. My experience is that the quality of engineering is often poor, and design for robustness, miserable. It seems these people were thinking, "If gets down the strip once in one piece, the design is proven. Ship it."

I'm not saying this is true for all companies, and thankfully the situation isn't as bad as it used to be, but when I think of the thousands of dollars I wasted over the years due to poor quality engineering, let's just say an indelible mark has been left. If you want to call this hyperbole, so be it...

I'd shop from a company with a long history of producing quality products, who backs their products with a good warranty, and has a good BBB (or similar) rating. The downside of this is that you'll probably spend more money than you'd like. But my philosophy is to spend more to do it right once, than to spend less, roll the dice, and probably do it twice. Or three times. Or...

If you assemble your engine using parts you source from different manufacturers, the job is tougher since you need to do this for each supplier, and the chain is still only a strong as its weakest link.

About common parts from the same OEM: these bulk houses are often overseas. That doesn't necessarily make them worse, but I don't generally trust them as much as a proven domestic supplier. Again, the cost is likely to be higher.



If I was to buy a crate engine it would be from chevrolet performance. I dont plan on buying one but if I did it would be them.

I've not heard much bad about trick flow and really don't have much to say, but we will see what their final answer is and go from there. Trick Flow was a name I had heard of and assumed it was a quality brand and at this point I will give benefit of the doubt, things happen and slip through the cracks. As far as the heads go I wouldn't have mind to spend more but it was the best for a 305.
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/14/21 04:19 AM

Sounds good, Brent. Not trying to kick sand in your eyes, promise.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/14/21 04:53 AM

Just shows how important it is to be able to pick parts from reliable sources. Those 5746 specs are listed as .040" and 4.125" on the Summit webpage, that's why I mentioned looking for a better fit for your engine. It's hard to find a composite head gasket that is less than .040" for alum heads.

Talking about aftermarket parts. Had to replace the oil pressure gauge sender on the 86 several times. Had a Standard Products sender and it failed, got stupid and and would read zero and then normal. Bought a GM sender, it failed. Went to buy another sender and found out Wells was bought by Echlin, Echlin was bought out by Standard. Purchased a Wells, Echlin and another Standard to compare. They all are exactly the same even the old GM had Taiwan stamped in exactly the same place, just went in different boxes when they went down the line. So the choice of products for even OEM has narrowed greatly. You get what you get and be happy you can still get a part. Most everything is made overseas by a few, it's not about quality, it's about corporate profit. Even Edelbrock corp was bought out. Today a few Hedge funds own most all the aftermarket parts that supplied the car hobby. There goal is money, not product.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/14/21 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Just shows how important it is to be able to pick parts from reliable sources. Those 5746 specs are listed as .040" and 4.125" on the Summit webpage, that's why I mentioned looking for a better fit for your engine. It's hard to find a composite head gasket that is less than .040" for alum heads.

Talking about aftermarket parts. Had to replace the oil pressure gauge sender on the 86 several times. Had a Standard Products sender and it failed, got stupid and and would read zero and then normal. Bought a GM sender, it failed. Went to buy another sender and found out Wells was bought by Echlin, Echlin was bought out by Standard. Purchased a Wells, Echlin and another Standard to compare. They all are exactly the same even the old GM had Taiwan stamped in exactly the same place, just went in different boxes when they went down the line. So the choice of products for even OEM has narrowed greatly. You get what you get and be happy you can still get a part. Most everything is made overseas by a few, it's not about quality, it's about corporate profit. Even Edelbrock corp was bought out. Today a few Hedge funds own most all the aftermarket parts that supplied the car hobby. There goal is money, not product.
Bob


I have always been leary of a lot of the magazines. I one time read this from a "magazine" guy named Tony Defeo.

"The entire magazine thing left a really bad taste in my mouth. I enjoyed doing the work, and the feedback I got was always fantastic, but the system (in my mind at least) is corrupt to the core. The industry only exists to get the reader to spend money, where I on the other hand always looked to help my friends (The guys reading that stuff) get the most amount of bang for the least amount of bread. That's what makes the internet so great. No publishers or advertising people to pervert the gearhead lifestyle..it's one to one, and we can all share at whatever level our experience and knowledge allows."

I kind of panicked when you listed the head gasket sizes. I ordered them from summit around 2 months ago and that was not the size listed when I ordered it. Not sure why summit would change it but today I'm going to check it to make sure.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/14/21 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by MAP
Sounds good, Brent. Not trying to kick sand in your eyes, promise.


I didn't take it that way at all. As the the saying goes, it is what it is.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 05:15 AM

Some of us older guys got our feet wet with car magazines, there was no xxxx Monkey Garage, no Forums, you learned from the guy down the street and the car mags had articles about making cars go faster. Rarely was there anything about stopping or turning a corner. When you wanted a cam you went to a speed shop and hoped the owner had enough catalogs to look at. Early on learned the basic engine stuff from mags. For me it was more about all the advertisers where I learned about what was available. Not about what they boasted about but what was available. I passed thousands of dollars over a speed shop counter. It was the only way to get parts and mags were where you found out who was offering what. You made a long distance phone call to a performance parts maker and asked about the product he sold. Internet made that a little easier 20 years ago to get parts and still same problem, you don't know if it correct until you have it in your hand.

For years had either Super Chevy, Popular Hot Rodding, Car Craft, Hot Rod home delivered "at 1/3 their newsstand price". As mentioned they become nothing more than advertiser promotion. Later in life spent 26 years working for a newspaper, gave me another prospective on how advertising pays the bills.

We actually still have two speed shop in town. Both have changed hands several times. Never seems to have what I needed that day. No catalogs to look at, just a computer screen, just not the same shopping experience. Easier now to sit at the keyboard with a cup of coffee and call BS on a product. And I haven't had a car mag delivered in many years.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 07:24 AM

Bob, reading your earlier post, I wasn’t sure if you were thinking the 1.5:1 ratio rockers would have fitment problems or not. The 1.5” rockers will have the pushrod cup moved out towards on the lifter body, away from the rocker stud and towards the intake side valve cover rails. This will give more head (and guide plate) to pushrod clearance at the inward side of the pushrod (toward the rocker studs). There’s rarely if ever an interference issue with 1.5 rockers even with stock heads - I've never seen or heard of one.

Not so much here lately, but I’ve used a number of aftermarket heads over the years on builds I’ve done (mostly Dart, AFR, TFS, and the old Canfields). I used 1.6 rockers on most all of those builds and none ever had an interference issue with the head. However, I typically buy bare heads and would run .100 or longer valves for the added installed height needed for the particular springs needed – which means running longer pushrods.

I have had to grind one set of guide plates that came with a set of assembled heads (years back), but I typically buy bare heads and use the Isky adjustable guide plates on the higher horsepower applications (as you indicated, especially needed for those with non-stock valve spacing). The latest set of heads I had anything to do with were assembled 220 AFRs (decent hardware and the springs matched the cam well). Everything checked OK and there were no pushrod to head or guide plate clearance issues with the 1.6 rockers used. However, the rocker arms would not clear the spring retainers without running lash caps, which was no big deal as they were planned and I always use them with solid lifter cams anyway.

The issue I’m having in general and with Brent’s build in particular is it’s become increasingly obvious that it’s become even harder for me to have faith in any parts you buy from any company. I mean, I’ve always known you have to check parts but I kept spreadsheets with part numbers on builds to insure things would go together smoothly for the next similar budget and power build. I would hit an occasional snag but back then for the most part even things on the first build of a “series” went together fairly smoothly.

Fast forward to recent times,,,,, the 406 I built for my buddy last year had one issue after another – seemed like there was some issue with just about everything he had bought before he asked me to build the thing for him. Two things REALLY got to me. I had to elongate the holes on the cast timing chain cover so the crank seal would be centered and the oil pan would seal. I can’t help but feel sorry for the guy that would have missed that – he would have known soon after cranking with the oil leaks though. I even had to modify the carb mounted fuel pressure regulator bracket to clear the accelerator pump arms and hoses to the fuel bowls. Really???? Obviously NO one there even checked to see if THEIR product would fit the application it was supposedly designed for.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 08:17 AM

Breaking up an already entirely too long of a post – lol

Magazines – they used to be pretty good back in the day and were a good source of information. I got most my initial basic knowledge from spending almost every day for a little over a week with an out-of-state uncle in his shop that bracket raced (numerous trophies and track records) AND he built his own engines - as luck would have it he happened to be building a new engine for his car at the time. Bought books by Smokey Yunick, Grumpy Jenkins, and David Vizard but the most knowledge came from trial and error. A close friend and I intentionally built near identical engines. He was the only person that knew what I had in my engine and vise-versa. I would try a part and if it worked he would buy it also. If he bought a part and it didn’t work I’d know NOT to buy it and vise-versa. Doing this, we about doubled our learning curve in half the time anyone else would have.

Almost 18 years ago now,,, I wrote a couple free-lance technical articles for GM HighTech and a number of feature articles for Popular HotRodding. I can tell you it was all about the advertisers. I wrote one about swapping out a ported stock TPI for a StealthRam intake. All was well there as the results were favorable for Holley. I wrote a follow-up article where I swapped the Holley for a FIRST TPI (like a GM TPI on steroids). I had comparison data and the FIRST was actually a few hundredths quicker – it was a MUCH better fit for the car and had insane throttle response. He said he loved the article but couldn’t run it because he knew he would get crap from Holley and couldn’t afford for them to cut any advertising dollars because of it.

I said, OK let’s take out the comparison data and not mention Holley. I said I could even take out the comparison to the ported stock TPI and just write about the FIRST's own merits. I was given two reasons for a no go on both accounts. 1) The StealthRam article was only a few months old and people would remember it was the same engine/car and could pull the older article to compare. 2) FIRST LLC was (still is) a small mom and pop company and not an advertiser. Quoting him, “I doubt they could afford to advertise enough for me to even chance ticking off the folks at Holley”.

I never brought it back up and never did another technical article for them or anyone else. Eventually stopped doing the feature articles – loved talking to most of the car owners, but it was obvious the magazine only picked the cars with high dollar parts - again advertising related. NOW, do not get me wrong, I TOTALLY understood – business is business and at that point in time the magazines were really fighting to stay alive in a digital world.

Last magazines I bought have all been Engine Masters Challenge related. Love seeing SAM related articles also. One last thing (I promise lol), there has always been regurgitating of older articles, where they change just enough stuff around for it to kinda look like a new article. However, I’ve noticed a lot more of that lately and some are rather disturbing to me. Some were originally written saying one brand of product was used and 10 years later the same results but now indicating another brand. Was it a mistake then, or now? Or,, was/is it a mistake at all? Who knows.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 05:33 PM

So here is a update to the trick flow head situation. I contacted them about the issue on the 8th of January. I spoke with Howard Woodburn originally he took my info and we had a couple of emails go back and forth over a few days. I suggest any questions you have with them be through email, phone system you wait a long time, sometimes you get through sometimes system just hangs up on you and voicmail is always full. Email they answer back pretty quick.. Then I didn't hear anything so I got a little frustrated with the situation. I contacted them again and was dealing with a gentleman named Eddi Pinegar. The reason I did not hear back from Howard was he was off for a day or rest of week. I get it people have lives outside of work. So I sent emails back and forth with Eddi mostly the same stuff but I understand he needs the info. So Eddi sends me an email this morning saying he will mock up everything on a engine with the components I have. He will send me new heads, pushrods, and rockers with everything taken care of and I will send my heads back in supplied boxes. At this point my faith is restored and I have recieved good customer service from Trick Flow and Eddi. This is more than I expected and it seems that Eddi stands behind the trick flow products and is willing to help the consumer and make things right. I will keep everyone up to date.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 06:06 PM

Kevin good to see you're not shy about banging on a keyboard. Brevity seems to be the order of the day. Ask a question and hope for an answer, "yep" is what you get most times.

Back in 1970 was building my 62 Nova, DZ shortblock, Muncie and a 4.88 12 bolt. I found Headers by Ed advertising in the back of one of the mags. A couple phone calls to give him specs on my build and an excellent set of tuned under chassis headers were delivered to my door. No one sold under chassis headers for a Chevy II back then except Ed. My sister lives in Minneapolis, Ed's shop was located a few miles away. I made it a point to stop by his house/shop two different times to meet up with him. His stories about advertising costs and how the mags were all about "he who paid the most for advertising is the best product". They priced him out of the car mags.
http://www.headersbyed.com/

I understand when we read mag articles, posts on forums, internet advertising and stories that they need to be taken as opinion. We all know what opinions are like, and everyone has one, myself included.
Bob

Kevin on the home stereo side. Ever heard of a speaker company called Design Acoustics back from the mid 70s?
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
So Eddi sends me an email this morning saying he will mock up everything on a engine with the components I have. He will send me new heads, pushrods, and rockers with everything taken care of and I will send my heads back in supplied boxes. At this point my faith is restored and I have received good customer service from Trick Flow and Eddi. This is more than I expected and it seems that Eddi stands behind the trick flow products and is willing to help the consumer and make things right.


That is excellent news and I'm glad they're doing the right thing and then some for you!!! It does restore faith knowing there are still people and companies out there that care about their products and consumers!!!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 07:59 PM

Bob, in the emails you sent me with your fuel regulator I noticed you had the dual snorkel. Did you use the camaro air ducts or something else?
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/16/21 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Kevin good to see you're not shy about banging on a keyboard. Brevity seems to be the order of the day. Ask a question and hope for an answer, "yep" is what you get most times.

Yep smile

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Back in 1970 was building my 62 Nova, DZ shortblock, Muncie and a 4.88 12 bolt. I found Headers by Ed advertising in the back of one of the mags. A couple phone calls to give him specs on my build and an excellent set of tuned under chassis headers were delivered to my door.

I never ran a set but I've always heard good things about them. There are a number of companies generating exceptional products that the typical consumer knows little to nothing about. They typically cost a good bit higher than the mass produced products, but many times the costs are well warranted. I too remember all to well the days looking in the back of the magazine at those stamp sized ads for phone numbers.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
I understand when we read mag articles, posts on forums, internet advertising and stories that they need to be taken as opinion. We all know what opinions are like, and everyone has one, myself included.

I can get hung up on the word opinion. If there truly is a right or wrong, there's not really an opinion involved there. I get what you're saying and agree. Everyone should take what they read anywhere with a grain of salt. I've debunked a number of things over the years that were considered gospel - you truly don't know for sure until you try it yourself. No one knows everything. For instance, I've been wrong before - I thought I was wrong. LOL - that was one of my favorite sayings that my dad used.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Kevin on the home stereo side. Ever heard of a speaker company called Design Acoustics back from the mid 70s?

I have heard of them but can't recall if I ever heard any of them. In the late 70's and early 80's I did go around to the home audio places to listen to find speakers I liked and then tried to get replacement drivers that I could use in the car or for home use in home-made enclosures.. Talk about hard to get parts before the internet!! I can only recall back then what I liked and tried to get raw drivers for - which were KEF, Acoustic Research, and Altec Lancing. I also really liked their car audio speakers in the 80s (along with A/D/S).
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/17/21 07:23 AM

Brent hoping Trick comes through for you and remedies what I think is a bad case of core shift. It does happen and even the Big Three have had problems.

That dual snorkel setup is the one used on a few 3rd Gen F-body. The first one I bought was ugly, needed HD resto to make it pretty again. Got lucky and found a second one that was in VG condition, 10 bucks, the first one I later gave to a another friend with an 85 SS, he threw it in the trunk, later dumped the car. A pity.
The key to that F dual snorkel is the two duct hoses that attach to snorkels. The duct snorkel sheetmetal opening is an odd size, 4"+, no over the counter hose will fit on the snorkel. But the opposite end of the factory duct hose is 4" hose. Go figure.
Before those two factory F duct hoses and the plastic "scoop" were discontinued by GM I bought the two hoses and scoops new from my local Chevy parts. I destroyed the scoops trying to make them fit between the hood and rad support, like the SS scoop was mounted. That didn't work for me.

Sourced two 4"x36" ducts from the Four Seasons catalog, made two 4" OD alum couplers and now had two 6' ducts. Then passed the 4" ducting through the rad support and had them getting cold air right above the front bumper "shocks". Later acquired two manometers from a large commercial Carrier A/C tear out at my newspaper employment. As building super I supervised the million dollar renovation, learned a lot about dealing with people who know everything.

Using those manometer and duct work I tested a half dozen places in the front and the cowl hood of the car looking for consistent positive flow. Went out and drafted tractor trailer, cars, low speed, high speeds, cornering, all the time watching two manometer mounted in a cardboard box hanging off the right inner door panel. "in my opinion" the best place to get more consistent, positive, cold air is through the grille. The 4" ducts are ported into the sides of the SS radiator airbox. They pick up almost zero dirty air, or bugs, my air cleaner filter never gets dirty. The only negative to using the airbox is at idle when the two dual Spal fans turn on you can see the idle A/F mixture richen about .2 on the gauge. this because the fans pull a negative pressure through the airbox when the car is stopped. Not a big deal, doesn't effect the idle quality and is only an issue at idle when the fan run on high which is a rarity. As an SS owner we should know that the best thing about an SS is the airbox and front nose, a big reason 80's Monte SS are the winningest car in Nascar history. I was really reluctant to drill those 4" holes in the side of the air box. Finding nice OEM airboxes today doesn't happen. But the cold air system on this car works very well.

Just to add a little more info on the F dual snorkel. About 5 mods were done to it to make it fit the new engine. My compressor is moved outboard 1 1/4" for easier valve cover removal, the compressor and left snorkel then collided. A Qjet air cleaner housing has a indexing tab in the front center to locate the housing. That tab's location was moved to allow the duct to pass the compressor. Because the housing is rotated, reindexed, I run 4 stacked air cleaner to carb gaskets to raise the housing up enough to prevent interference between the housing and the carb sec linkage on the right side. There is a factory dimple in the GM housing to provide clearance for that linkage, reindexing moved it, thicker gaskets necessary.

Had to have two 1/8" OD steel rods TIGed into each snorkel openings to support the flimsy sheetmetal.

The F-body air cleaner got hot air off the exhaust manifold on the left side, SS on the right. That was flipped to allow hot air from the right. Although the entire Thermac system for the dual snorkel is 100% intact but I never have the vacuum supply hooked up. You don't really need it if the choke works properly.

The charcoal ring inside the housing got removed. Does it help, does it hurt, should help.
You reuse the top lid of the stock air cleaner which allows running the 1" taller SS stock air filter (depending on intake manifold height).

Must be more I'm forgetting but to make the dual snorkel perform rather than being an ornament there was a lot that went into it. That air cleaner is also a large part of my PVC/catch can system on the engine, there are two filters inside the housing for that.

Here's a link to an old discussion about getting cold air.
http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=740886&page=1

Kevin, Design Acoustic infamous for this speaker. D12 in the early 70s.
When I got pregnant in 73 the Nova had to go and needed only a family car, had just bought the new 72 Chevelle SS the year before. But was able to take the proceeds from the Nova part out and buy a Marantz 2270, Technics SL1300 and a Wollensac 8 track recorder. Most of today's kids have no idea what an 8 track is but in the early 70s that was the mobile music medium. The 72 SS came with an AM/8 track. I gutted the AM from the Delco head unit, built a board to added bass, treble, fader and balance right into the face of the unit. Bought a Heathkit FM tuner and tied it into the Delco . For 1974 that was an assume hand build FM/8 track sounding system. Wollensac made high quality 8 tracks. There are still a couple three dozen 8 tracks in a storage area, oh boy.

The last piece of that 70's home stereo was finding a set of speakers. I travel a 75 mile radius from home going to every stereo store with my two LPs in hand and audition hundreds of speakers. This is 1974 and found most were out of my price range that I liked. Those 3000 electrostatics sounded good, those 1500 Klipsch were nice but back in the day that was two months pay for a new father buying a house. Finally found an affordable speaker I wanted but the money dried up. My uncle gave me his old set of Dynaco A25s when he bought his 901s, the 25s satisfied me for years. I never bought the speakers I found in 74. Well until about 2 years ago I was cruising through ebay speakers and saw a pair of Design Acoustics D4A, the speakers I had my heart set on 40+ years prior. The D4A are now in my shop running on the Onyko receiver there, I listen to them often, Abbey Road still sounds good. My Marantz 2270 I still own but a recap is necessary, that's a 600-700 dollar job. So 1/2 of another bucket list item is done, D4A speakers obtained, just need to get the Marantz fixed, buy a new cartridge for the Technics to relive my good old days, the 70s.

Hijacking done. Back to the topic at hand.

Brent, got the heated O2 sensor done?
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/17/21 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Brent hoping Trick comes through for you and remedies what I think is a bad case of core shift. It does happen and even the Big Three have had problems.

That dual snorkel setup is the one used on a few 3rd Gen F-body. The first one I bought was ugly, needed HD resto to make it pretty again. Got lucky and found a second one that was in VG condition, 10 bucks, the first one I later gave to a another friend with an 85 SS, he threw it in the trunk, later dumped the car. A pity.
The key to that F dual snorkel is the two duct hoses that attach to snorkels. The duct snorkel sheetmetal opening is an odd size, 4"+, no over the counter hose will fit on the snorkel. But the opposite end of the factory duct hose is 4" hose. Go figure.
Before those two factory F duct hoses and the plastic "scoop" were discontinued by GM I bought the two hoses and scoops new from my local Chevy parts. I destroyed the scoops trying to make them fit between the hood and rad support, like the SS scoop was mounted. That didn't work for me.

Sourced two 4"x36" ducts from the Four Seasons catalog, made two 4" OD alum couplers and now had two 6' ducts. Then passed the 4" ducting through the rad support and had them getting cold air right above the front bumper "shocks". Later acquired two manometers from a large commercial Carrier A/C tear out at my newspaper employment. As building super I supervised the million dollar renovation, learned a lot about dealing with people who know everything.

Using those manometer and duct work I tested a half dozen places in the front and the cowl hood of the car looking for consistent positive flow. Went out and drafted tractor trailer, cars, low speed, high speeds, cornering, all the time watching two manometer mounted in a cardboard box hanging off the right inner door panel. "in my opinion" the best place to get more consistent, positive, cold air is through the grille. The 4" ducts are ported into the sides of the SS radiator airbox. They pick up almost zero dirty air, or bugs, my air cleaner filter never gets dirty. The only negative to using the airbox is at idle when the two dual Spal fans turn on you can see the idle A/F mixture richen about .2 on the gauge. this because the fans pull a negative pressure through the airbox when the car is stopped. Not a big deal, doesn't effect the idle quality and is only an issue at idle when the fan run on high which is a rarity. As an SS owner we should know that the best thing about an SS is the airbox and front nose, a big reason 80's Monte SS are the winningest car in Nascar history. I was really reluctant to drill those 4" holes in the side of the air box. Finding nice OEM airboxes today doesn't happen. But the cold air system on this car works very well.

Just to add a little more info on the F dual snorkel. About 5 mods were done to it to make it fit the new engine. My compressor is moved outboard 1 1/4" for easier valve cover removal, the compressor and left snorkel then collided. A Qjet air cleaner housing has a indexing tab in the front center to locate the housing. That tab's location was moved to allow the duct to pass the compressor. Because the housing is rotated, reindexed, I run 4 stacked air cleaner to carb gaskets to raise the housing up enough to prevent interference between the housing and the carb sec linkage on the right side. There is a factory dimple in the GM housing to provide clearance for that linkage, reindexing moved it, thicker gaskets necessary.

Had to have two 1/8" OD steel rods TIGed into each snorkel openings to support the flimsy sheetmetal.

The F-body air cleaner got hot air off the exhaust manifold on the left side, SS on the right. That was flipped to allow hot air from the right. Although the entire Thermac system for the dual snorkel is 100% intact but I never have the vacuum supply hooked up. You don't really need it if the choke works properly.

The charcoal ring inside the housing got removed. Does it help, does it hurt, should help.
You reuse the top lid of the stock air cleaner which allows running the 1" taller SS stock air filter (depending on intake manifold height).

Must be more I'm forgetting but to make the dual snorkel perform rather than being an ornament there was a lot that went into it. That air cleaner is also a large part of my PVC/catch can system on the engine, there are two filters inside the housing for that.

Here's a link to an old discussion about getting cold air.
http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=740886&page=1

Kevin, Design Acoustic infamous for this speaker. D12 in the early 70s.
When I got pregnant in 73 the Nova had to go and needed only a family car, had just bought the new 72 Chevelle SS the year before. But was able to take the proceeds from the Nova part out and buy a Marantz 2270, Technics SL1300 and a Wollensac 8 track recorder. Most of today's kids have no idea what an 8 track is but in the early 70s that was the mobile music medium. The 72 SS came with an AM/8 track. I gutted the AM from the Delco head unit, built a board to added bass, treble, fader and balance right into the face of the unit. Bought a Heathkit FM tuner and tied it into the Delco . For 1974 that was an assume hand build FM/8 track sounding system. Wollensac made high quality 8 tracks. There are still a couple three dozen 8 tracks in a storage area, oh boy.

The last piece of that 70's home stereo was finding a set of speakers. I travel a 75 mile radius from home going to every stereo store with my two LPs in hand and audition hundreds of speakers. This is 1974 and found most were out of my price range that I liked. Those 3000 electrostatics sounded good, those 1500 Klipsch were nice but back in the day that was two months pay for a new father buying a house. Finally found an affordable speaker I wanted but the money dried up. My uncle gave me his old set of Dynaco A25s when he bought his 901s, the 25s satisfied me for years. I never bought the speakers I found in 74. Well until about 2 years ago I was cruising through ebay speakers and saw a pair of Design Acoustics D4A, the speakers I had my heart set on 40+ years prior. The D4A are now in my shop running on the Onyko receiver there, I listen to them often, Abbey Road still sounds good. My Marantz 2270 I still own but a recap is necessary, that's a 600-700 dollar job. So 1/2 of another bucket list item is done, D4A speakers obtained, just need to get the Marantz fixed, buy a new cartridge for the Technics to relive my good old days, the 70s.

Hijacking done. Back to the topic at hand.

Brent, got the heated O2 sensor done?
Bob








I believe trick flow is going to come through but we will see. Thanks for the info on the dual snorkel. Someone is making the f body scoops https://www.ramairbox.com/snorkels.html if you scroll down on his page they are at the bottom. Price is $73/piece. Probably just leave it alone for now, just keep my eye out for parts and come up with a good plan first.

Yep the heated sensor is in everything works good. How I datalog the ccc system is bluetooth off a phone app aldlscan it puts it to spread sheet which isn't the best but atleast I can see kind of whats going on. It also has 4 extra channels so I will be able to log my speedhut a/f reading. I also ordered the vacuum gauge since I plan on sticking with carb. There are a few other apps I might try to get better logging.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/17/21 09:03 PM

Those two at the bottom of the page #917-918 are the two that don't fit on top of the rad support, except now they are fiberglass. They need to be reduced in height, hood won't close. 75 bucks a piece, I paid $7 each from GM when I bought them in 1999.

I would just pass the duct through the rad support and pull cold air there instead of on top the rad support. The evap canister on the left inner fenderwell I relocated just slightly outboard and the 4" duct passes with no problem. On the right side i run a smaller battery, 75 series, and position it outboard as far as possible. Trimmed just a little sheetmetal where the hose passes through the rad support. The 4" duct hose is then ovaled to allow it to pass the battery/battery tray and through the rad support.

If you need to do the dual snorkel use the original housing and add another snorkel to the right side. Locate it to pass by the compressor. Back when i did the dual snorkle F they were easier to find, today they are this price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/83-86-Camaro-Z28-H-O-Air-Intake-Assembly-Air-Cleaner-Housing-Dual-Snorkle/114427207448?hash=item1aa4649f18:g:qmkAAOSwhC1fbUri

Or ridiculous at this price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-83-86-Camaro-Z-28-Firebird-Trans-Am-L69-V8-Dual-Snorkel-Air-Cleaner-Assembly/233613196904?hash=item36646e7e68:g:~J0AAOSwMThe3ixP

Neither air cleaner has the most important parts, the two factory duct hoses.
The Standard Product DH30 4" hose is not available anymore. Some of the stock car parts sellers have hose used for brake cooling ducts.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3620

One of my Monte friends used 4" alum dryer duct hose to run his ducts. It only comes silver (alum).

You're a little ways from worrying about a cold air package.

Pretty cool being able to produce a spreadsheet for the CCC. Can you see Vac sensor and dwell in real time?
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/17/21 10:39 PM

I know I'm putting the cart before the horse on the air intake but just thinking a little while I'm waiting for the head issue to be resolved.

This is what I see on my phone live. Of course the numbers aren't there right now cause the cars not running lol. But it gives you and idea. It doesn't show dwell but does show mixture control %. No vacuum it does show MAP voltage. This is what it shows analog which i will wire my speedhut a/f into extra channel.

[Linked Image]

Here is the digital screens one can watch live. Alot of them are just flags for throwing a code.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I like it. Probably not the best but we are dealing 1980's technology.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/18/21 05:23 AM

Pretty cool you can datalog the CCC system like that.

About your pushrod clearance issues, I wonder if head gasket thickness is throwing your geometry off? The stock 305 head gaskets are .015 steel shim type You said that you are using .040 head gaskets which are .025 thicker. Does Trickflow recommend any head gaskets to use?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/18/21 03:17 PM

Brent the only thing I noticed was the MAP voltage. The CCC doesn't use a MAP, it's a VAC sensor. A MAP shows high voltage at idle, high engine vac and voltage decreases as vacuum is decreased. A VAC sensor is the opposite, low voltage at high vac, high voltage at low vac such as WOT.

Pretty cool that today's technology can simply read what the antique CCC system is doing.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 02:13 AM

By the spreadsheet above it is saying at idle with car in drive the t.p.s is .627 and it is showing the "map" voltage at 3.175 volts. When im on the throttle decent t.p.s. is 3.881 the "map" voltage is reading .706 volts. Not sure why he has it programed in as map I will probably call him and ask. You are correct in saying monte doesn't have a Map its Vacuum sensor. I had never really thought of it and why it was there. So what is the value its showing or what is that reading. Im confused. I understand there is a lot of variables but what is the vacuum reading at idle on a stock Monte with the ccc?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Buick Runner
Pretty cool you can datalog the CCC system like that.

About your pushrod clearance issues, I wonder if head gasket thickness is throwing your geometry off? The stock 305 head gaskets are .015 steel shim type You said that you are using .040 head gaskets which are .025 thicker. Does Trickflow recommend any head gaskets to use?


I tried with no head gasket and it didn't make it any better. We will see what they come up with at trick flow. I was supposed to hear from them today but didn't.
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 04:19 AM

(Hi Bob - Design Acoustics - well known in their day. D4's - OK; typical for the epoch. PM me any questions? Recaps are usually doable at home.)
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 03:45 PM

Logging the CCC system like that IS cool... After logging and tuning the Holley EFI, I can really tell just how much easier logging data makes the whole process. You are going to love that...
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by SSLance
Logging the CCC system like that IS cool... After logging and tuning the Holley EFI, I can really tell just how much easier logging data makes the whole process. You are going to love that...



Whats funny is the only reason I bought it originally was to read codes. It was cheaper than any obd1 reader I could find at the time. It works well its also compatible with tunerpro rt but I've never messed with it. The guy that builds and sales them is really knowledgeable and always a phone call away.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 06:51 PM

Looking around online, CompCams does make offset rocker arms. Investigating some more it seems that some Trick Flow heads require offset rockers on the intake valves, but this seems to mainly be a issue with their Twisted Wedge heads.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 07:42 PM

Mark I was figuring you'd jump in on that Marantz and Design Acoustic reference. From all the research I've found on the 2270 there are dozens of components that need to be replaced or upgraded to do a refurb. The electrolytic caps are just a small part of the refurb. It's a lot of labor to tear that 2270 apart to get to all the boards
As you called it, epoch of the day, speakers performance today has been defined by size and squeezing "good" sound quality from smaller boxes. The Bose Wave in my kitchen I'm sure you are familiar with........
One of the 8" woofers in the D4 may have to be reconed one of these days but overall pleased with them. To bad they are so particular to placement in a room.

Brent, who supplied the software for you to get that logging? With the ability to put that on your phone others may be interested in the source. Occasionally I run into cars that still run a form of the CCC which was used for almost 10 years on the several GM vehicles, not only the V-8s. But my Brainmaster is still nestled away under a workbench in case I ever need it again.
Bob
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Mark I was figuring you'd jump in on that Marantz and Design Acoustic reference. From all the research I've found on the 2270 there are dozens of components that need to be replaced or upgraded to do a refurb. The electrolytic caps are just a small part of the refurb. It's a lot of labor to tear that 2270 apart to get to all the boards
As you called it, epoch of the day, speakers performance today has been defined by size and squeezing "good" sound quality from smaller boxes. The Bose Wave in my kitchen I'm sure you are familiar with........
One of the 8" woofers in the D4 may have to be reconed one of these days but overall pleased with them. To bad they are so particular to placement in a room.

Brent, who supplied the software for you to get that logging? With the ability to put that on your phone others may be interested in the source. Occasionally I run into cars that still run a form of the CCC which was used for almost 10 years on the several GM vehicles, not only the V-8s. But my Brainmaster is still nestled away under a workbench in case I ever need it again.
Bob


While datalogging and Brainmasters are quite useful for CCC work, one still needs a analog dwell meter to see the sweep and avarages of the dwell responses. Moreover, one can't have too many tools.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/19/21 08:52 PM

This is the one i have. You have to use the link on the page to go to ebay to buy. Like I said it was super simple to use and owner is very helpful.

http://www.1320electronics.com/12pin_ALDL_BT_MK2.html
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/21/21 03:45 AM

Hi Bob - I'll PM so I don't further derail this thread (!)
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/24/21 11:41 AM

Just to let everyone know I'm still here. Trick Flow said they hope to get the heads finished and sent out sometime this coming week. I wish they would hurry up and get here, my wife has all of a sudden came up with building and installing a fireplace. Not what I wanted to be doing but if it keeps her happy so be it.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/24/21 01:54 PM

Oh man...we are in fireplace mode here as well. Good luck with that...
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/24/21 06:05 PM

Make sure you do natural gas or propane for the fireplace. From experience of 40+ years of doing firewood it gets old rather quick. Gotta go downstairs and throw another log on.

COLD, I thought Phoenix was a hot spot, no need for anything but relief from the 90+.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/24/21 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Not what I wanted to be doing but if it keeps her happy so be it.

Happy wife, happy life!!! Hope all goes well with TFS next week.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/24/21 10:08 PM

In the 50s today and rainy, actually heard the furnace fire off a few times this afternoon. We are looking at electric linear fireplace purely for installation ease.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/25/21 12:02 AM

I know alot of people don't care for them but me and my wife both have lived in houses with a ventless propane and that's what we are going with. We live out a little so no natural gas available. Its actually a zero clearance ventless. I hired someone to run the gas line due to inspection. Im doing the framing and building the surround/mantel. We had the house built 3 years ago and she didn't want a fireplace. Sure would have been a lot easier then. Electric linear is very nice we wanted it gas in case loss of power. We had a good snow on Christmas and people were without power for 2 days. Luckily ours never went out.
Posted By: Crusher

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 01/25/21 12:08 AM

FWIW, I have had a ventless gas fireplace for 15 years. No problem at all. Love turning it on or off from the couch.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/06/21 05:59 PM

Waiting on heads still. Trick Flow has been decent about keeping me up to date. They sent email Friday saying they were waiting on retainers.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/07/21 04:02 PM

Brent, only 43 days until Spring. Unfortunately you are not alone with the parts shortage problem. One friend has been waiting months for his builder to get Pontiac engine parts, another had to settle for his second choice for an Isky cam. It's pretty much the norm. I do appliance repair as a side gig, waiting since Dec for very common replacement parts.
Remember, patience is a virtue.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/20/21 01:30 PM

At this point I'm not sure whats going on with the heads from trick flow. Last week still waiting on retainers. Heads were supposed to ship last Friday or earlier this week. Not heard a thing. Emailed yesterday to see where we are. Spring is getting closer and closer, atleast the whole fireplace project is done and the wife is happy. Now I'm getting more anxious about getting the car ready for upcoming year. A few of the shows and cruise ins are already canceled. Looks like autox is still on but at this point not sure I'll make the first one as I had hoped. I would like to get some decent miles on engine first before trying to push it.
Posted By: CM1SCW

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/20/21 02:07 PM

I am with you. riffey's is close to initial start up of my car hope fully in a week or two i'll get her back. Ready to see how she runs.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/26/21 06:24 AM

While impatiently waiting to get heads back on the shortblock couple questions.
Is the carb ready to go back on? And what did you end up using for choke pull-off, sec rods and hanger. If i remember you pull the carb apart and threw some gaskets in and some Ruggles parts. What sec rods and hanger are in the carb now. Carb needs to be done and ready to bolt on.

Did you check out the dist, connections, internal wires, and endplay. Most of those Delco dist had to much endplay, maybe .030", shimming the gear drive can reduce that to .010-.012". Setting endplay can reduce ignition timing change, wear on the rotating parts. Just a common adjustment on Delco dist, endplay check.

Torque converter? First flex plates can be a problem. Double check for any cracks at the mounting flange, Also inspect the ring gear. A new SFI flex plate isn't that expensive.
Are you installing a higher stall converter? I believe the original stall was 2100, upping that to high 20s would be a plus without any real negatives. Just help the little mouse get out of the hole a little quicker.

Did you replace the front and rear crank seals? The one piece on those engines is actually a decent setup, much better than the old 2 piece. Changing rear seal is easy and insurance. Timing cover crank seal can be seapers even when new, also check the new chain doesn't rub the cover. Later years SBC went to the plastic front cover with the one piece oil pan gasket. When the oil pan goes back on paying attention to the corners of the gasket and super clean everything and RTV a little in each corner. The leaks on those one piece gaskets are at the 4 corners. For RTV sealers tried many, use the GM for those pan areas and intake manifold, it's gray. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88864346
Also like the GM https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-10-2024 for the bolts that need sealant, head and intake manifold. If you use new head bolts that come with sealant on the threads, Dorman for one, judiciously apply more to insure 100% seal of head bolts. Been there done that.

Lucky you, the car is so low mileage that many things are not even broke in yet but are after all 35 years old. The P/S hoses are one of those things. If you replace the high pressure hose on the P/S you can eliminate that switch on the steering box that turns off the A/C compressor if the pressure in the P/S system goes high. That happens when you hold the steering full lock one direction and pump pressure goes high, engine rpm slow down due to extra pump load, the switch turns the A/C compressor off until pressure goes down again. That was something GM had to do for Grandma in the parking lot.
Edelmann makes the necessary hose, bolt in, eliminates the switch, EDELMANN 71074, used on the non A/C cars. Edelmann hoses were good stuff several years ago, USA, who knows now. Rickauto says 7 bucks, wow.

Motor mounts. If your's are still in good condition, not oiled, not cracked or separated reuse them. Poly motor mounts will add harshness and more vibration feel into the steering wheel. Motor mount and steering box are side by side. The aftermarket rubber mounts are less than 20 bucks a pair, but i question quality. Bought Anchor mounts and looked at them, hmmm, definitely cheaper. Why am I putting 500/500 on these mounts with launching in mind. Was lucky enough to get one of the last GM sets before they went overseas,. #22188497, list price is 137, each! So reuse your mounts if possible. Ran the GM mounts for a few year. In search of wheel hop problems change to black Energy poly mounts, yep, noticed the difference in the steering wheel. Doesn't help the steering intermediate shaft has no dampening now.

Always a good idea to have the radiator tested. The G rads I was told were thin to start with and that's why the original 86 rad was to his shop for core leaks twice. The third time it leaked a new copper/brass 4 core was bought, small company up where all the lakes freeze, dirt track guys were using his rad, more durable to take the punishment.. Got 20 years on that rad now, soon time to service it again, cooking, cleaning, pressure testing and a light fresh coat of rad paint The evap get a cleaning at that time too. Lots of winged stuff get in there.

Bored in suburbia.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/26/21 06:36 PM

So, I typed out a long detailed response and while keying in the last paragraph I accidently hit the back button while going to look for a link and erased everything, doah! So the short not very detailed version.

Went through carb and replaced oem choke pulloff with Cliffs. Put about 300 miles on carb before removing engine and everything was working good. Oem K hanger, and just put the DA secondary rods in. Cliff felt thats what my combo would need.

Distributor was working good when removed but I did take it apart and look through everything and all looked well. I didnt think about end play I will definitely look into it.

Going to stick with oem flex plate and stall. I did look at the flex plate mounting a week or 2 ago and all looked good. I will give it another good inspection before i install now that you have brought it up. Stall on my car seems to be around 2200 r.p.m.

After talking with Kevin and inspecting rear seal we decide if not broke dont fix it. No leaks and all looks good. Checked timing chain clearance without gasket, did not hear or see any signs of clearance issues. I did replace the front seal. Cover had surface rust so I took to bare metal, primer, then low gloss black and put new seal in. Will look into the above mentioned rtv. If it works good for you it will work for me. Went with new arp head and intake bolts and just got the arp thread sealant. Hopefully a good product.

Ps switch to ac does get on my nerves. Hoses look top notch so I will stay with the oem for time being.

Factory motor mounts are in good shape and drivers side mount was trimmed a little for header clearance so I will stay with them.

When I purchased the car the only thing was a small leak in the radiator. At the time I purchased a 3 row brass/copper radiator so the radiator is only 3 years old. At that time I sprayed out the evaporator. So hopefully I'm all good there. That reminds me of something. When I replaced the radiator I decided I wanted to refinish the top airbox plate due to some paint peeling from water getting under it. That has to be the worst piece ever to try to remove and the one bolt behind the nose is a bear to get to. I said a lot of not so good words. Off topic but it was frustrating.

Bob, thank you for bringing the topics up and its greatly appreciated. I take your advice serious. The knowledge you and Kevin have on these cars is impressive.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/27/21 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
For RTV sealers tried many, use the GM for those pan areas and intake manifold, it's gray. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-88864346
Also like the GM https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-10-2024 for the bolts that need sealant, head and intake manifold.

I never used the GM RTV, been using the Ultra Black since it came out. Seem to remember the first sensor safe RTV (that I could get around hear anyway) was blue or maybe copper - can't be sure other than I didn't like the color - lol. One of the best engine builders around here uses "Pro Seal" RTV. Yes, this is the stuff sold at Harbor Freight for about half the cost of the Ultra Black tubes I've been using. He buys 11.1oz cartridges of the stuff from a wholesaler to use in a caulk gun ($9.87).
https://www.grainger.com/product/PRO-SEAL-Oil-Resistant-RTV-Silicone-1FBH8

Funny thing, it's made in the USA by Pace Technology - "the home of the original super glue". So, I'm sure it's a quality product. If I were building more engines than I do now, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. That said, no more engines than I do now and being a creature of habit (keep using what I know works), I'll just splurge for the Ultra Black - lol

For thread sealant, I like using those 1.69 oz. squeeze tubes with the rotating open and close tip, just like the GM brand that Bob linked above. I've used the brush on sealant that my buddy already had when I built his engine and didn't care for it. Much better control during application with the rotating open and close applicator tip and less chance of it gumming up over the years. I've been using the 1.69 oz. ARP sealant for about a long as I can remember. I wouldn't doubt if all the brands of the 1.69 oz. tubes weren't the same stuff either. The ARP is $5 less and I know it to be good stuff as well.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-100-9904

I can't remember if there's been any mention of anti-seize, but that's EXTREMELY important to use on all the spark plugs and bolts going into the heads. I've been using the same tube of Permatx anti-seize for a LONG time - check out the picture lol. Just a little dab-a-do-ya on the beginning threads.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/umi-81343

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/27/21 10:59 PM

Trick flow sent out my heads yesterday. Here is the email concerning the heads.

"Hello  

 Heads are going out today sir and I'll tell you this was a weird one. We have never had this call before and we have sold this head forever.  But your combo brought it out LOL. Hydraulic roller cam no issue, flat tapped with 1.5 rocker no issue any combo but your has been an issue. So just so you know we will make a production change in the head so no one else will have this issue.  Thank you for your patience and all your components will work with this you'll just need to check pushrod with your engine but it will work this time LOL 

Thanks so much 

Eddi"   
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/28/21 12:06 AM

Well, it took a bit of time, but it sounds like they took care of you. Now it's just a matter of checking out the valve seats to make sure all is well there - hopefully they did that too while they were at it, but you never know until you see for yourself!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 02/28/21 04:36 PM

You would think that a hundred sets of those heads were sold and lots of guys go 1.6 rockers. Sound like a casting mold shift problem to me.
Glad, hoping, that gets this engine back together soon.

I'm a big Never-seez user, wheels, drums, rotors, steel bolts, exhaust clamps, buy it in 8 oz bottles. Never use it on wheels studs or lug nuts, they go on clean and dry. The 8 oz containers come with a brush cap, the contents need to be stirred often as the liquid and solids separate when sitting, and the solvents will evaporate overtime making what's left is a thick unusable paste. In tube form you need to knead the tube to keep the "mix" the same.

Was using it on spark plugs no matter alum or iron heads but switched to the copper based antiseize awhile ago. I found the silver antiseize gets sticky, pasty, as the heat cooks out the solvents.
Interesting that when you look at various plug manufactures they say use no antiseize on plugs that have a coating on the threads to prevent seizing, increase conductivity of the ground and make removal easier. NGK, my choice, has a trivalent coating, I've been neverseizing them, may try dry next time.
https://www.ngkplugpro.ca/content/contentfiles/pdf/NGKSP-0907-1R-Anti-SeizeonSparkPlugs.pdf

Are the head bolts torqued yet?
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/03/21 02:39 AM

Well the head saga continues........ got the heads today and they are clearanced but they are the wrong part number. Same head just bigger diameter dual springs. I assume for a roller cam. Not had time to check anything else as far as valve length, I will compare my part number and the heads I recieved part number and see what the difference is. I did check every slot with guide plate on and everything cleared. It looks like they have just put them on a mill and knocked the protruding tabs down and maybe a little more. Also milled the slots a little deeper in guide plates. This whole thing started January 8th. In hindsight I could have done what they done with a grinder in a couple of hours. If I would have messed it up it would be on me. It was the point of it being bolt on and me thinking that they should fix the problem which they did fix but sent the wrong heads.

At this point I'm beyond frustrated. It shouldn't be this difficult. Hard for me to believe I'm first ever person to use hydraulic flat tappet with a 1.6 on these heads.

At this point I wish I would have took the money I spent and the money I have for the trans upgrade and bought a gm crate engine. We will see what happens with all this.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/03/21 06:34 AM

Man, you can't get a break. I've been down that road a few times, customer service is #1, just wish more would understand that. The worst offender I find today is the health care system.

What always pops up in my mind is a skit from SNL, 1976, Ernestine, Lilly Tomlin, as Ma Bell operator. "We're the phone company, we don't care," because we don't have too. It's a classic!!! For some reason now you need to rent that video to view it, hmmmm, dozens of her other Ernestine's on the tube.
Saw that sketch live in 1976, it's stuck with since.
Her phone call to the president of GM is funny.

Just trying to put a little humor to a, really pissed, situation. Hang in there.

Is it just the wrong springs, is the chamber cc correct, several things to verify. I found it odd that you said they clearanced the pushrod guides also. After looking at Trick's website seems they may be having a supply problem, not a lot of inventory.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/03/21 04:31 PM

Bummer...
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/03/21 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by SSLance
Bummer...


You are correct.

At this point all there is to do is move ahead. I will check everything out tomorrow when I get time, see what the difference is.

My heads are:

https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-30310005

The heads they sent me:

https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-30310007
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/03/21 11:55 PM

Brent - they sent you an upgrade?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/04/21 03:20 AM

Looking at the specs for both heads it appears the only difference is the spring OD. But you need to know the specs on those springs to match what your cam calls for. Again looking at Tricks website they show a lot of valves for heads but I see no springs listed.
You need to call and get springs specs.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/04/21 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by AkronAero
Brent - they sent you an upgrade?


Price wise yes its a upgrade. Dual larger diameter valve springs and .600 lift. Heads i have are smaller diameter single valve spring spring and .520 lift.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Looking at the specs for both heads it appears the only difference is the spring OD. But you need to know the specs on those springs to match what your cam calls for. Again looking at Tricks website they show a lot of valves for heads but I see no springs listed.
You need to call and get springs specs.
Bob



1.250" O.D. single spring with damper 110 lbs. @ 1.780" installed height 300 lbs. @ 1.280" open 360 lbs. per inch rate .520" maximum lift

1.460" O.D. dual spring with damper 125 lbs. @ 1.800" installed height 376 lbs. @ 1.180” open 420 lbs. per inch rate .600" maximum lift

Bob, the heads they sent, as far as spring rate will not work with my current cam and lifters. So at this point it looks as though I have 2 options. 1st option take the springs and components from previous heads and swap them over. More expensive 2nd option take the heads they sent and go roller lifters, components, and another cam. I went over both my options with Kevin and he is going to run some numbers and we will see what I decide. My block has provisions for roller. Its quite a bit more money and I can still sale my cam, timing gear set, and lifters. More than likely for pennies on the dollar but I could recoup some. Kevin thought around $700 to go roller. At the end of the day what type of power increase will i see going roller and is there any unforeseen problems with swapping everything from one head to the other. We shall see.

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/04/21 06:07 AM

I know the original intent of the build was to keep it affordable and make lots more hp using the shortblock you have. Throwing a roller cam in anything is a big plus, but not something in the original budget.

Me I would TELL Trick to send me the correct springs, retainers, spring seats if different and appropriate shims to change the spring to match the cam you already have. They should be able to box that out that day.

Spring compressor and spring height gauge gets the job done. Gotta get back to where you were two months ago, bolting heads on.
Bob
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/05/21 09:19 PM

Brent - You are in good hands with Kevin, as he is a major and willing resource for many of us. I was swapping the big flat tappet cam in my 383 crate engine for something more refined/streetable with better low end and nearly same upper end. He modeled out several options (still has the software from when he had his own speedshop). We hoped to swap to roller cam (best numbers and much easier break-in) but discovered when we opened it that the block was an older design Gen 1 (nuts!) so he reworked everything (yet again), cut a new flat tappet cam at COMPCams, and we should finish up the install next month. Adding 1" carb spacer too. Increasing vac from 5 to 13.5 (modeled) with tons more low end TQ and even HP (really not needed but a plus). Fortunately I have AFRs with 1.6 roller rockers so that stays the same. Sorry this is turning out to be another damn "learning experience" for you, but you are more than capable, and patient. I did notice the grind marks under your timing chain and really appreciated that post - I checked and found the same on mine and we are grinding that down before re-assembly. So thanks again for all your posts.
Gordon
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/06/21 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by AkronAero
Brent - You are in good hands with Kevin, as he is a major and willing resource for many of us. I was swapping the big flat tappet cam in my 383 crate engine for something more refined/streetable with better low end and nearly same upper end. He modeled out several options (still has the software from when he had his own speedshop). We hoped to swap to roller cam (best numbers and much easier break-in) but discovered when we opened it that the block was an older design Gen 1 (nuts!) so he reworked everything (yet again), cut a new flat tappet cam at COMPCams, and we should finish up the install next month. Adding 1" carb spacer too. Increasing vac from 5 to 13.5 (modeled) with tons more low end TQ and even HP (really not needed but a plus). Fortunately I have AFRs with 1.6 roller rockers so that stays the same. Sorry this is turning out to be another damn "learning experience" for you, but you are more than capable, and patient. I did notice the grind marks under your timing chain and really appreciated that post - I checked and found the same on mine and we are grinding that down before re-assembly. So thanks again for all your posts.
Gordon


Gordon, I'm into the opposite of you now. Started with flat tappet hydraulic and now going roller. Kevin is great, he is working on another cam for me for the roller lifters. Not sure what I would do without his knowledge. I have been worried about the break in for a while so im a little relieved going roller and as you stated more h.p. This was not the plan but there is a reason for everything. Im glad my earlier post helped out.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/06/21 06:20 AM

I'm all for roller cams in engines, all engines, significant advantages. What I was saying was this build was going to be the learning experience for more cubic inch later. The saving on reusing the shortblock made the investment into heads and cam specific to a 305 not a bad expenditure of green. 300+ hp potential and fun. Parts from the 305 most likely can't go in a bigger engine.

Been a long time since buying parts for a roller cam install. Amazed at the price for a set of Comp lifters.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-15853xd-16

The GM lifters and spider can be had for reasonable. We have them in a ZZ4 build with a Howards cam, beehive springs and it buzzes 7K on stock lifters and makes power to 7K. We did have failure on one lifter, plunger seized but that was on the old Comp cam we had in the engine.

Before i forget, new heads are angle or straight plugs? Headers and plug install not a problem.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Before i forget, new heads are angle or straight plugs? Headers and plug install not a problem.
Bob


Angle plugs. It's the same as the other heads that I originally fit my headers on so I should be good on that.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 02:51 PM

So as most know I have not been happy with how things have went customer service wise with Trick Flow. Still not sure why it has went the way it has but time to move forward. As quick as I am to to talk about the negatives of how some things have went I want to talk about the positives of it. I broke the new heads down to further check everything, lap the valves, and drill and tap the heat crossover with npt plug. I must say I am more than pleased with the machine work and with my little bit of experience feel that these heads are top notch.

[Linked Image]

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Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 03:12 PM

This is exactly how every exhaust and intake valve looked after lapping with clover fine compound.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 03:18 PM

Drilled and tapped the crossover plug.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 03:29 PM

Combustion chamber to cylinder overlap is roughly .050" on the intake and exhaust side for a total of around .100".

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 04:19 PM

To get a rough idea of where I was at on my intake runner to intake port alignment and if there was any porting needing to be done I grabbed some $7 gasket stock and trimmed it to intake ports. The intake runner overlaps the intake port by 1/16" at the most and with a quick gasket match I think its a pretty good match stock so no porting on the intake runner. The intake head port is not overlapping the intake runner anywhere so that is good. On the intake picture the gasket has slid down a little but it does match up good when held tight.


[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 05:39 PM

Brent - you have the patience of a saint and the passion of a sinner!
Gordon
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/07/21 11:06 PM

I have no hands-on experience with the TFS 175 heads, but those do look nice. In the first picture of the chamber and seats it looks there might be a ridge at the seat, but I didn't see that in the video Brent sent me and he has confirmed no ridge can be felt at any of the seats (both at the combustion chamber and at the bowl area). He's also confirmed he can't feel a ridge or indention at the casting's parting lines (even though it sure looks like it in the pictures).

I was worried a little about the chambers overlapping the bores and it's not as bad as it could have been. I just wished since these were originally marketed as 305 heads (IIRC) and they say on their website “These heads only fit engines with a 3.736 in. bore or larger.”, that they wouldn't overlap the 305’s, 3.736-in bore.

Brent, I know you can’t wait to get this thing back on the road with the extra power – it’s going to be a considerable increase over stock for sure! You’re doing things right and hanging in there. I’ve seen many people run into fewer issues, get discouraged, and end up throwing in the towel. I do believe this is one of those cases where the juice will be worth the squeeze!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/08/21 06:48 AM

I agree, even though I've never heard that expression, "the juice is worth the squeeze".

If it helps here's an old video of a 305 Monte running a 9.99.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ1NnyIqEtg

And a pic of that car at lauch, about 1/2 way down the page.
http://www.competitionplus.com/drag...eilly-auto-parts-route-66-nhra-nationals

So that little mouse does have potential.

Trick calls that chamber heart shaped. Being only a 56cc chamber to keep compression up and not shroud the valves chamber look like that I guess.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/08/21 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
I know the original intent of the build was to keep it affordable and make lots more hp using the shortblock you have. Throwing a roller cam in anything is a big plus, but not something in the original budget.


Bob, It was not in the original plan or the budget I had for this build. It will increase the cost a pretty good sum. Two of my good friends, 1 who has kids and no time at the moment for car stuff, the other who is a 1000+ h.p. ls engine guy have rolled a lobe when starting up sbc flat tappet cams in the past 15 years. Both of these guys are meticulous. So over time I've became more and more nervous. I know tons of flat tappets are started up every day sucessfully but It has been on mind.

At this point after receiving the heads setup for roller cam and all the things that have happened i changed my mind. Im a big everything happens for a reason guy. Yes, plenty could go wrong with roller but I feel better about it. I guess buying a little insurance is how I've justified it.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/08/21 03:21 PM

So, let's talk lifters. While Kevin was working his magic dialing up a cam I went to doing roller lifter reasearch. My first thought was the comp cams hydraulic roller lifters.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-875-16

I read some not so good things about these lifters on other forums but it seems alot of those might have came from not setting the preload right. Also they were not in stock anywhere. Called comp they said 4-6 weeks. Scoggin- Dickey showed they had some but I have seen in the past where they do not have things that they show in stock so I made a phone call. The guy on the phone said they did not have any in stock but if he did he could not recommend them. Said he has personally seen some quality issues out of them. He said in the majority of roller sbc builds they do they use the ls7 lifter.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12499225/make/chevrolet

Did some more research and a lot of people like that lifter in a sbc. Seems like a popular choice. So it was down to the ls7 lifter and the chevrolet performance lifter:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-17120735

It also comes in this kit.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12371042

For some reason the recommended .082" preload made me nervous on the ls7 lifter. When used on the ls engine some are running .100" preload. Gm says .082". The ls7 lifters are cheaper.

Bob, I think you mentioned using the chevrolet performance lifter, also its what chevrolet performance uses in their roller crate engines. Talked to Lance and he is still using the same lifters since getting the ht383 new and he has put them through the paces. Chevrolet says 1/2 a turn after zero lash for preload.

In the end I decided against the ls7 lifters went with the chevrolet performance roller lifter kit.
Posted By: PB86SS/87LS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/08/21 05:23 PM

Just catching up on this thread now, not sure how I missed it. Nice to see a 305 build, over the years you hear of people saying they did X or Y with their 305 and claim some numbers, to see one get done and hopefully you get some numbers (dyno?) to see how far it's gotten will be nice.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/09/21 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by PB86SS/87LS
Just catching up on this thread now, not sure how I missed it. Nice to see a 305 build, over the years you hear of people saying they did X or Y with their 305 and claim some numbers, to see one get done and hopefully you get some numbers (dyno?) to see how far it's gotten will be nice.


Glad you like the thread Paul. I plan to put it on a chassis dyno once I get the engine built and the a/f ratio dialed in and fine tune everything. Its not going to be some huge number but I would like a h.p. number to be out there so people can decide about building a 305. Ive found tons of 305 builds but rarely have u seen a number.

Also thank you for all the things you have done forum wise. This is a great place with some very knowledgeable and nice people. I really enjoy it. I just hope I can help some people along the way.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/09/21 06:41 AM

Hi Paul, been awhile. Question, was it the Columbus, Nashville or Cleveland?

Brent I'm a funner, like to keep thing lite if at all possible, life is too short. But i thought you might get a kick out of that video, what you can do with a 305 in a Monte, when you have big bucks and a national NHRA event to win.

My friend with the 84 SS, 305, Dart heads and some cam, a converter and aspirations to get it into the solid 14s on street tires we have discussed your build a couple times now. Like you he pulled his 27K mile shortblock, cleaned and painted it, and went from there with cam, heads, old school Qjet. For years he campaigned a 67 Nova, 355 running 10s trying to win money at bracket racing. He shed a little more light to me on what it takes to get a 305 Monte in Super Stock to run a 9.99 @130 mph in that video, calculated a little north of 600hp. It's huge air flow through small heads at 8000 rpm supplied by huge amounts of dollars spent to do that. An old adages applies: the only substitute for cubic inches is cubic money.

By the way bookmark this website, lots of usable calculators here:
http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

A far as the GM SBC roller lifters the only problem we had with them in the ZZ4 build was #8 exhaust lifter seized the plunger and we had to replace it. The car never sees many miles in it's life so mileage wasn't a factor. Can't say for sure why that happened, failure or an adjustment problem by him. I do know we pulled the Comp 270 roller cam and installed a bigger Howard roller with those same lifter's, beehive spring and the engine on the chassis dyno was still making power at 7K. I was impressed by those GM hydraulic lifters. That old Comp roller cam rolled over at 6K, mine does the same thing, done at 5800. I do think for an engine that will run to 6K the GM lifter are a very good, reliable, and are a very good deal as far as the cost and were used in millions of engine. Same basic roller lifter used in all GM roller engines until the LS. The V-8 uses a spider and engines like 4.3 and 3.8 V6s because of the countershaft in the valley use a plastic lifter retainer on each side.

Several advantages of running a roller cam, that's why almost all the factory stuff is roller for years. Break-in just one, area under the valve the biggest reason.
I think you'll be happier with the roller cam.
I have nothing against rollers, just the initial cost. In fact in 1971 my little 302 62 Nova had a Crane R298 solid roller that was my daily driver for more than a year, that was 50 years ago. But money wasn't an issue back then, you did what made the most power and could buzz all day to 7+.

Don't forget, pushrod length needs to be determined again.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/09/21 03:40 PM

Bob, nothing like having a little fun, thats one thing I dislike about social media/forums its a little harder to express emotions.

I was unable to find anything out about the 305 Larry Hodge drag car on Google except for pictures. I was really curious about his setup. Not that I wanted to do anything he had but I was curious.

Everything should be here by Friday then set it up and check for pushrod length. Luckily i never ordered pushrods. I also ordered another pushrod length check tool for the roller lifters.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/09/21 04:05 PM

Make sure your pushrod checker won't do the length you need first before order another length one. There shouldn't be that much difference in pushrod length from stock with the roller lifters. Been to long since i built my last engine to remember what we did with the pushrods on that ZZ4 build.

One thing you won't find is specs on that Hodge build. SuperStock is like NASCAR, nobody shares that info. Yes there are rules they need to build to but stretching the rules is what make them faster than others. Even on his website there is no info on his car.
https://www.larryhodgeracing.com/

It's going into the 60s here for part of this week, my bed sheets are going on the clothe line to get some sun shine. A WELCOME after this lousy Winter. So around the corner is Spring, cars and coffee, might even have a couple shows this year. The swap meet, flea market at Maple Grove may even happen next month.. Not your fault you are behind but don't rush to get it done. You've come so far, just keep at it.
My 427 build was almost two years on the engine software of the day, engine stand and eating away at the Visa. But now 14 year since the firing up and still the heads have not been off the engine.
I was told patience is a virtue.
Bob
Posted By: PB86SS/87LS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/09/21 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Hi Paul, been awhile. Question, was it the Columbus, Nashville or Cleveland?




Hmm, not sure whatcha mean Bob. I never have been to Nashville if that clears anything up, Cleveland/Elyria I think was the first NMCOA I went to and where I got your shirt (still have it!). Now I had to look up the ones I attended, 2005 was Decatur, 2007 Cincinnati and 2009 Richmond Indiana. I signed up for the 2014 event in Decatur but didn't go, I think after not going when it was only 4 hours away I realized I probably wouldn't attend them again. They were fun, the most fun was meeting up with people I knew some locally and others on the forum.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/09/21 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Make sure your pushrod checker won't do the length you need first before order another length one. There shouldn't be that much difference in pushrod length from stock with the roller lifters. Been to long since i built my last engine to remember what we did with the pushrods on that ZZ4 build.


The length tool i have is 7.500"-8.700", stock pushrod for the hydraulic flat tappet was 7.8. I know a lot of variables are different on mine but it looks like the gm crate engines that run those roller lifters have a 7.122 pushrod so I ordered the 6.125"-7.500" tool. Hopefully I guessed right.


Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Not your fault you are behind but don't rush to get it done. You've come so far, just keep at it.
My 427 build was almost two years on the engine software of the day, engine stand and eating away at the Visa. But now 14 year since the firing up and still the heads have not been off the engine.
I was told patience is a virtue.
Bob


I try to take everything in stride. I mainly just go to a local cruise in on Friday evenings, and a couple of other cruise ins and cars and coffee. No way I will make it to for the first autox I was going to try to make. Next one where I could make it is in September. I don't do the Pigeon Forge rod runs anymore and might take it to the Dragon a time or 2 during the week this year for some spirited driving, no real plans. I really enjoy wrenching on it out in the garage by myself (my quiet time) and learning things so im not in a big rush. It will get on the road soon enough.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/09/21 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
One thing you won't find is specs on that Hodge build. SuperStock is like NASCAR, nobody shares that info. Yes there are rules they need to build to but stretching the rules is what make them faster than others. Even on his website there is no info on his car.
https://www.larryhodgeracing.com/


I know all about being tight-lipped and I'm just an old grudge racer - lol. I looked around and found this post from TGO from 2009 under "Who has the fastest 305?". Not super specific, but gives you an idea of the power he's making and lets you know how high he's turning the thing! I suspect with the way it is worded "must maintain stock volume of 163cc" that unless it says they have to be "as-cast", there's probably some filler in the head with some major port shaping.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/org...6-who-has-fastest-305-a.html#post4262088

The guy says, "I know of a Super Stock Monte that runs 6.50's in the 1/8... Flattop pistons, .700" lift cam, single plane intake of some sort with a QuadraJet, 1-7/8" headers with merge collectors, 416 heads must maintain stock runner volume of 163cc with 1.84/1.50" valves....Makes 538HP at 7800rpm...goes through the 1/4 around 8800rpm... his name is Larry Hodge..."
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/10/21 03:29 PM

My new parts list to switch over to the roller cam. Roughly $900, not cheap.

Cam
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-08-465-8

Timing Chain Set
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1145

Pushrod tool
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-90008

Fuel pump pushrod
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4607

Cam retainer
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-10088128

Roller lifter kit
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12371042

If anyone sees anything out of sorts or anything I've overlooked just let me know. It would be appreciated. Kevin dialed in the cam for me. He was between a custom grind and the cam above. After some conversation we went with the off the shelf cam. Lift with the 1.6 rockers should be around 0.560"/0.555".
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/10/21 06:14 PM

So I decided to port the top side of the intake. Mostly with pointers from Badss (Kevin)from his past experience, some reasearch, reading, and imitation. Not sure how much I helped it but I gave it a go. If I only had a flow bench.It was my first time porting anything. In the photos, coming off the center section the casting is not the same on both sides and the center section is hollow thats why its not symmetrical I did not want to go through. Once again I learned alot, I enjoyed it but wouldn't want to do it for a living. I decided to stay with the factory intake because of the carb and trans linkages, cost, and through research the factory intakes are pretty good. The gain of the aftermarket intake, if any at all was not worth the hassle of figuring out the linkages. So on to the porting.

Stock

[Linked Image]

Ported

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The 2 rails were removed to prevent fuel puddling and also provide a notch for crossover air to hopefully gain a little up top.

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Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/11/21 01:44 PM

So, this is the simulations Kevin came up with on the new roller cam setup. I must admit if I get to 350 fwhp I would be pretty tickeled. Even though I spent the $900 for the roller setup I would still be around $2600 for parts not counting the purchase of the flat tappet pieces and the price figure does include the price increase for the roller cam heads.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/11/21 04:38 PM

I did not care for the protruding tabs in the center of the intake so I ground them down then went 80, 100, 120 grit. Also cleaned up intake runners, smoothed casting flaws and rounded edges with a 6" long arbor. I tried to really think about how the air would move and try to help it move but without a flow bench its hard to tell.

[Linked Image]

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Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/11/21 07:30 PM

Brent - The biggest kicker has got to be the increase in low-mid range torque.
Do you, Kevin or others have a comparative dyno/model curve for stock to reference?
You are making it too pretty to drive?
Stop having fun playing with it and lets get on the road...
Gordon
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/11/21 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by AkronAero
Brent - The biggest kicker has got to be the increase in low-mid range torque.
Do you, Kevin or others have a comparative dyno/model curve for stock to reference?
You are making it too pretty to drive?
Stop having fun playing with it and lets get on the road...
Gordon


I know Kevin made one for stock and the flat tappet cam. I looked and I must have erased it. Maybe he could dial us one up. As much as I bother him he should probably count me as a dependent. Lol.

I'm off today and tomorrow so im dotting i's and crossing t's. Im double and triple checking things. I have all the new parts except for lifters. They should be here tomorrow evening. Hopefully get everything in tomorrow and get my pushrod length and order them.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/12/21 02:39 AM

You know, it takes some guts to grab a grinder and go to town with it when you’ve never really done it before. Kudo’s on that and doing a great job on the intake.

As far as how much the intake mods help:

Back in the day I used a Vericom to get before and after ETs of each car I worked on it. I told Brent that I had no before and after ETs with just tricking out the intake. However, I ported a buddy’s SS intake much like Brent did his (I used to fill in that reservoir area at the primaries with epoxy) and installed the same cam and exhaust system that I did for another SS, except that guy wanted a Performer intake. It’s been SOOOOO long that I can’t remember the before and after ETs for either, but I do remember that the drop in ETs on both cars were almost identical. I also remember thinking after seeing the ETs for the SS with the Performer intake that I was going to charge more for modifying the stock intakes - lol

When I was talking with Brent about epoxying the reservoir area (like I used to do), I mentioned that while I hadn’t done it before, if I ever modified another stock intake, I was going grind the “rails” flat and make somewhat of a notch, not as deep (but the thick gasket raises the carb an additional 1/4"), but similar to that on the Performer RPM intake. Him being as courageous as he is, he was down with the idea. If I had to guess, I’d say it would be worth a few extra horses and could bump the peak power up 100 - 150rpm over what I used to do.

So, if you believe the old dyno article where a stock 1982 LG4 with dyno headers and dual 3” pipes with FlowMaster mufflers picked up 19HP with just a Performer intake (not sure I do), then those intake mods could be within 15-20HP over stock on a modified 305..
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/12/21 02:55 AM

As far as a stock 305 dyno reference, I pulled most of this from a 2006 post I made on TGO. It’s an LG4, so an L69 should make a few more horses with the bump in compression and the larger cam.

Back then, I was weeding through some of the old magazines and ran across a couple 305 dyno articles. I’m revising that post as I thought those watching this thread might find the info interesting.

“305 CHEVY” – March 1999 Car Craft by Marlan Davis - Dynoed at Westech
8.6:1, stock 1982 LG4 305 – 1 5/8” dyno headers into dual 3” Flowmasters
197HP @ 4600 rpm and 261TQ @ 3100 - Baseline
-------They added--------
L31 Vortec heads milled to 55cc chambers for 10:1 compression
Hydraulic flat-tappet XE-262H10 (218/224 .462 / .469 – 110 spread +4)
Super Victor intake (made better power than the Performer RPM) - 750 DP
325HP @ 5800 rpm and 317TQ @ 4800
(It made a bit under 325 HP at 5500 and 5800 rpm, but dropped like a rock past 5800 rpm)
--------------------------------------------------------------
“Potluck Buildup” – December 1993 CHP by Mike Magda – Dynoed at Bonded Motorsports
8.87:1, .030 over 305 – 1 5/8" dyno headers uncapped
AFR190 “305 Heads” w/58cc chambers - 1.99” intake / 1.55” exhaust
Heads flowed 245cfm intake / 174cfm exhaust @ .500 lift
AFR hydraulic flat-tappet (218/223 .491/.501 w/stamped steel 1.6 rockers – 110 spread +2)
Performer RPM with Carb Shop modified 650 DP (approx 730cfm)
387HP @ 6000 rpm and 368TQ @ 4000
----------------------------------------------------------------
Those AFR190 “305 Heads” are no longer available, the article showed 387.1 HP @ 6000 rpm and 367.4 lb/ft TQ at 4000 rpm. I ran a simulation back then and got 388 HP @ 6000 and 375 lb/ft @ 4400 rpm. TQ is a little high on the simulation, but they mentioned in the article it was running rich in the lower RPM band and with more time could have picked up the torque numbers.

So - fast forward to 2021. Those AFR heads and Brent’s TFS175 heads have very similar, really close, flow numbers.
“Unseen” differences in the old AFR’s simulation (388HP) vs Brent’s simulation (350HP):
Lightweight pistons vs stock/production design (more parasitic drag)
Low windage vs typical windage
Electric water pump (no accessories) vs 1980’s accessories (more parasitic drag)
Uncapped vs Capped (Using flow number for Brent’s mufflers)
Other variables are known

That said, I’m fairly confident, assuming his heads flow as advertised and the intake mods help as much as I estimated within the program, Brent’s 305 should come really close to the 350HP mark.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/12/21 07:25 AM

Brent you're a lucky guy to have Kevin in your corner. It's so hard these days to have people bring knowledge to someone else's SBC build. People just don't communicate anymore.

Always thought that intake was a good performer and worth keeping. The fact that it has all the attachment for linkage, A/C brace, coil, and fits nicely under the hood to allow any air cleaner clearance is big pluses. The plenum mod Kevin had you do i think will help the distribution. Years ago when the Torker intakes was the rage putting a plenum divider in the open plenum with the bottom open was one I tried. Brodex sells the Turtle which is an insert that lays on the bottom of the plenum. I forget who it was, a NASCAR engine builder, that was one of the early makers of Turtles. Plenum area is important.

I was a little surprised at the lift of that cam. It will be interesting to see how short duration and high lift works out. The 113 will help the low rpm range and may keep the CCC happy. Most all these new high hp factory cars have similar grinds with the rollers, shorter duration, more lift and to keep idle vac happy will have even less overlap, in the 114 degrees +. Funny, i saw your numbers and thought, my 427 only has ,560-.570 lift, that's a lot of lift for a little engine. I run a 112 for that reason, trying to keep the idle high. Of course my duration is a tad more, 30 degrees. I actually ran the 427 on CCC for 6 months, it handled that cam with no problem. Hoping your CCC won't even notice there was a cam change. Can't wait to see how this engine runs, think it will be real awaking.

Just a couple thing to make sure they are good. Can't remember how the dipstick and old cast iron headers on a 305 coexist. But make sure the stick's tube is mounted securely and doesn't leak where it goes into the block.

Intake gaskets where the EGR ports are, insure no sealing issues there. The intake I run a pipe plugs was installed in the plenum where the EGR port was just for insurance.

Install a drain petcock in the right side drain hole . You'll be glad later on. When you pull the pipe plug from that location stick something in the holes opening to make sure it's open, clear of junk. Junk can clogged a petcock if you drain coolant later. The other side drain hole is used for the knock sensor. do the same before sensor is reinstalled. Don't go nuts on the pipe tape when you reinstall the sensor, and don't over tighten, you may need to remove it later to drain. Without those plugs removed you can't get The the coolant out of the block.

That intake has the coolant port at #8 that ran to the T in the heater hose? There was always the question of why GM did that, 86 and older didn't do that.

Check the port match on the head exhaust port to headers. Can't remember if they a D ports but several have had problems getting good seal with some headers and D port. Something to address while on the engine stand, not in the car.

Cam thrust plate. Is the 305 drilled for thrust plate? Just went back and looked at early pics, yep already drilled, cool. Makes worrying about cam endplay a none factor when you can use the plate.

Test fit the accessory brackets while on the stand, Alt to intake bracket, compressor brackets to head, compressor bracket to #1 exhaust port,
P/S bracket that bolts to #1 cyl front header bolt. If exhaust ports are different it will not align and easily bolt on. Bolt all those brackets onto the engine to insure the holes drilled in the new heads are correct.

If replacing the 30+ year old water pump and going alum i suggest Stewart. Weiand is China, Edelbrock another good one but i had bad luck this one.

The stock fuel pump is more than adequate. The fuel filter in the carb is also more than adequate, no need for anything else. reuse the steel fuel line between the pump and carb if not kinked, neverseize all flare fittings nut male threads and the fuel filter nut threads into the carb.

If replacing belts use Gates, Dayco were to noisy for me with the Top Cog design.

Any rubber fuel hose use FI fuel hose, much better quality than the junk rubber 3/8" on the market.

As I watch the build will throw bones.

Paul, it was Cleveland 2002. That was one of the best I went to. 15 Montes from the Mailing List caravan for group pics and burnouts. Still have my T-shirt, and my son still is in that business.

Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/13/21 12:48 PM

Bob, all your suggestions have been noted. I have a note book in the garage and as things come to mind or are suggested on here I write them down to check when the time comes. Im glad you mentioned mounting the accessory drive while still on the stand definitely need to do that, petcocks are a good idea also. To go with that while marking and measuring everything for intake to port alignment I noticed the 2 center holes on each side of intake were off a little. I had to go up 2 sizes on drill bit for hole alignment. I think mocking up everything ahead of time is a great idea.

At some point the water pump has been changed. Old water pump and
old alternator were in the trunk when purchased along with a new in the box ac delco fuel pump. Water pump that is on the car is ac delco. Those Stewart water pumps look nice. I will keep that in the back of my mind going forward if I have water pump trouble.

As far as cam numbers go I'm a ball in high weeds. I rely 110% on Kevin's expertise. I think he simulated a little over 18" inches of vacuum for my setup. Ive read and studied a lot of things during this process, one thing I have not put a lot of time into is understanding cams. Im going through the basic of engine building right now. After some hands on and understanding how things move and work I plan to dive in more. Im more than lucky to have Kevin helping. At this point he has spent numerous hours on phone, text, and email helping me and helping me better understand things and get through problems. I enjoy it and I hope he does to. People like him and this forum help remind me that there is lots of positive things. Facebook helps remind me whats wrong with the world. Lol.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/13/21 08:33 PM

Be careful about mechanical fuel pumps as most put out too much pressure and cause rich running issues. Nobody makes a replacrment 3 port pump with the correct pressure anymore. I had to install a fuel pressure regulator to resolve high fuel pressue issues for my E4ME Qjet with a .135 needle seat. This is with the deep can L69 fuel pump.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/14/21 01:20 AM

Well, saw what looked like a hairline crack compressed the spring and pulled it off. I was able to snap it with my fingers. Saw one other one that looked suspect. Back to summit to order another round. Im really starting to wonder about my luck.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/14/21 02:07 AM

I have a question in the electrical section also if anyone has any suggestions. Trying to knock a few things out while waiting on valve train.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/14/21 02:16 AM

OUCH!!!!!!

I had keeper failure even on my expensive AFR heads. They didn't crack, the grooves on the keepers that retain the valve wore and the keeper/retainer was sliding up the stem. Heard excessive rocker clatter and luckily pulled and replaced them before they dropped a valve.

I would suggest going with Manley keepers.
There are 10 and 7 degree keepers, make sure you order the correct ones for your retainers. Most newer stuff uses a 7 degree.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/14/21 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Well, saw what looked like a hairline crack compressed the spring and pulled it off. I was able to snap it with my fingers. Saw one other one that looked suspect. Back to summit to order another round. I'm really starting to wonder about my luck.


Like I told you earlier Brent, I'm glad I'm far enough away that your luck can't rub off on me. Also, thanks for the kind words earlier. I have enjoyed talking with you and helping you out. I’ve taken away a few things myself – mainly, manufacturing and quality control of performance pieces and parts have gotten exponentially worse the past 15 years or so. However, the vendors can't be held totally responsible for all the parts they source - most everyone is manufacturing in China now and apparently not staying on top of the quality control.

I had a number of minor headaches that compounded into a migraine with the last engine I helped a buddy with and eventually built for him (2018). Most all were relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, but I never ran into that many things like that back in the day. One good thing from that last build was the AFR220 heads were clean and stellar - they literally could have been bolted on right out of the box. Now, I just hope the valvetrain components hold up!!

Bob, yes Brent’s cam with the 1.6 rockers is making more lift than the old norm for a SBC, but as you said, the short-duration, high-lift cam combination has been embraced by the OEM for almost 20-years. One of the first was the 2002 LS6 (1.7:1 rocker ratio) Corvette at 267/282 (.004”), 204/218 (.050”), .551/.547 lift – 117.5 spread. Then in 2008 a similar type cam in the LS3 at 267/275 (.004”), 204/211 (.050”), .551/.525 – 117.5 spread.

Brent’s 260XFI-HR-13 cam has a little more rate of rise, but it's not all that far off from the OEM LS cams - 260/270 (.006”), 210/218 (.050”), .560/.550 (1.6 rockers) – 113 spread. The difference in advertised/seat duration is due in part to the referenced measurement point.(.004" vs .006")

Also, while the extra lift adds a considerable amount of total duration, due to the rate of rise of the roller compared to a flat-tappet cam, the overlap area (which effects vacuum) doesn’t change much at all. Below is a visual of the XFI260-113 vs the closest matching XTREME flat-tappet (at .050” duration) on a 112 spread (they're usually on a 110 spread which would add more overlap).

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/14/21 06:51 AM

I do appliance repair for, car cash my wife tells me. Because of production problem and importing issues from China starting to see stuff pulled to this side of the ocean. Waited three months for three Whirlpool dryer door switches. Always made in China prior, they finally showed up this week, made in Mexico. Maybe there is some hope.

One thing I always look at when I see an engine build is the cam specs if they are given. I'm aware of the specs of the new LS cams, people have a hard time understand that overlap is 114 and up. Everyone thinks you need to be 108 or as Comp does most everything is 110. I'm a degreed in 12 1/2 and asked for 113 when Comp ground my cam. Even with an advertised 236/242 engine has 17" idle vac. Idle vac I feel is very important. Never worried about it much when younger but learned my lesson.

The cam is the brains of the engine, especially a carbed engine, FI the processor thinks it's the brains, but it's a slave to the cam. Probably forgot most of what I learned about cam design but know the correct roller is the way to go,

Brent. Is the roller lifter that much longer than a stock lifter? Can't remember the last time I had a SBC flat tappet hydraulic lifter in my hand.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/14/21 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Brent. Is the roller lifter that much longer than a stock lifter? Can't remember the last time I had a SBC flat tappet hydraulic lifter in my hand.
Bob


I wish I could could give you a measurement. Funny story with that, I ordered the chevrolet lifter kit last Sunday. It usually comes from Atlanta summit within 2 days at the most via ups. This time it was coming from Las Vegas summit via fedex. Left Las Vegas to Utah, Utah to Kentucky, Kentucky to New England, stuck in a weather delay, New England to Kansas, Kansas to Nashville and has been sitting in Nashville not moving since arriving. That all makes my head hurt.

I assume the difference is a lot, I will let you know when I get them. Pushrod length for gm sbc crate motor is 7.122", my pushrod length was 7.800".
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/15/21 01:14 AM

Well I was able to take a few steps forward today. Fedex delivered my parts I have been waiting on. Mocked everything up on the roller setup including timing chain cover and everything cleared and seemed in good shape. Got the cam degreed in and was able to get a pushrod length. Its smeared but the picture is with the pushrod at 7.112". After putting .021" for 1/2 a turn preload and .010" for gasket compression that puts me right at 7.122". Ordered pushrods and valve locks.

[Linked Image]

Here is the measurements on the lifters. The hydraulic flat tappet was a total height of around 2.000" a rough measurement of cup height is 1.500". Cup height is not real accurate as what I was measuring with had a square end so not seated all the way in the cup. The hydraulic roller lifter total height is around 2.600" with a rough cup height of 2.300".

[Linked Image]

Here is after everything is checked and degreed in. Plenty can still go wrong but I sure was glad to order pushrods. Ive been trying to order pushrods for 3 months.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/15/21 03:34 AM

Moving along nicely, won't be long now.

Thanks for the lifter info.

Three wire O2 installed? Just checking.

New oil pump? Did you check oil pan to pump pickup depth. Always a good idea to TIG pickup to pump.

Wix oil filters. Tall if it fits the confines of the header.

Same starter? On engine stand may be able to set up an aftermarket mini starter if you have one. Backlash and pinion depth something that needs to be checked if not original starter.

Spark plugs wires. Under headers usually a better option than over headers. Reuse the factory wire holders, nothing better.

Spark plugs. Buy a less expensive set of plugs in what you think is the correct heat range until you think you have all the little gremlins sorted out. Then once heat range is decided on buy a better plug. NGK double platinum my preferred for longevity, and heat range. Tried various Autolite, A/C Rapid Fire, A/C, like the NGK. But NGK are harder to get a good ignition timing reading from the ground strap, must be the plating they use. Changing plugs with headers and all the other stuff under there is no fun. Dielectric grease in the boots and plug insulator, a little goes a long way. I use it on all electrical connections.

Just more random stuff.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/15/21 11:03 AM

I've seen the charts and read some stuff about lobe profiles but it was good for my mind to see the difference with my own eyes. Made a little more sense to me.

Flat tappet

[Linked Image]

Roller

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Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/15/21 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Moving along nicely, won't be long now.

Thanks for the lifter info.

Three wire O2 installed? Just checking.

New oil pump? Did you check oil pan to pump pickup depth. Always a good idea to TIG pickup to pump.

Wix oil filters. Tall if it fits the confines of the header.

Same starter? On engine stand may be able to set up an aftermarket mini starter if you have one. Backlash and pinion depth something that needs to be checked if not original starter.

Spark plugs wires. Under headers usually a better option than over headers. Reuse the factory wire holders, nothing better.

Spark plugs. Buy a less expensive set of plugs in what you think is the correct heat range until you think you have all the little gremlins sorted out. Then once heat range is decided on buy a better plug. NGK double platinum my preferred for longevity, and heat range. Tried various Autolite, A/C Rapid Fire, A/C, like the NGK. But NGK are harder to get a good ignition timing reading from the ground strap, must be the plating they use. Changing plugs with headers and all the other stuff under there is no fun. Dielectric grease in the boots and plug insulator, a little goes a long way. I use it on all electrical connections.

Just more random stuff.
Bob


Yep, 3 wire is in.

Same factory oil pump, it looked in great shape only 18,000 miles so I think it will be good. I have to repair a friend's aerator tomorrow evening so while I have the welding cart out I will tig it.

I have the original starter. Will it be up to the task?

The spark plugs i bought are the autolite 3924.

This is what my plug and header setup looked like before. I did get some 2 wire separators in place of the zip ties. Im always looking for opinions and recommendations so anything helps.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/16/21 08:49 PM

Hi Brent,

One thing to remember that when comparing rollers to flat tappets, the lift profiles are not the same as the lobe shapes, because of how the roller and the flat tappet contact the lobe differently. Those two lobes may actually yield a very similar lift profile despite that the roller lobe looks so much rounder near its peak.

Going back to those valve lift profiles in EA Pro: those flat sections at maximum lift is something I've not seen before - curious if that's real or a new development within the past decade or so? The lift profiles I've seen in the past have been closer to sinusoidal in shape, with continuity through all derivatives. The OE, I know, likes continuity because other things being equal, it makes for a quieter valvetrain.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/17/21 12:56 AM

Map, the flat spot is probably more a limitation of the simulation software than anything – the EA3.4 Plus version is limited on the cam data points for duration. Duration at 0.200” lift data point is constant but you have to pick between entering either seat duration at 0.006” lift or duration at 0.050” lift. I used seat duration (and .200”) for the earlier example which gives a little better depiction of the differences in overlap between the two profiles. However, when you enter duration at .200 and .050, it shows a more conventional crown area.

I have EA Pro that can take Cam Doctor data and will generate an actual cam profile curve, but I rarely used the Pro version for anyone even before the power supply on PC it is on fried. It’s rather complicated with probably 10x more data points you can enter and 3x more data points you need to enter. Compared to known dyno pulls, there is little difference in peak numbers between the two programs using conventional components. However, from 3000 and under and how long the engine holds power past the HP peak the Pro version will better match the actual dyno pull – as it should. The Plus version isn’t bad – it’s actually quite good (especially for the money), it’s just the Pro Version is better.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/17/21 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Spark plugs wires. Under headers usually a better option than over headers.


I'll second that!! They usually cost a little more, but will last a lot longer without looping over the header tube and dealing with the heat soak from the headers - especially on a daily driver. An engine can look really sharp with the over header plug wires run along the valve covers though.(like yours Brent).
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/17/21 01:25 AM

Bob and others - Any suggestions on best methods to hard mount and hold ignition wires under the headers to keep them from contacting? Something I can bolt into beside the header bolts? I have spacers etc but want to avoid all play and movement. Saw some are using the looms for valve covers and mounting off the oil pan???

Brent - Is that the Ti / darkside ceramic JetHot coating on the headers? I prefer that look but opted for their Chrome only because its coated inside and outside and reduces more heat. Very nice.

Gordon

Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/17/21 01:28 AM

I was lucky enough that within 30 minutes of my house is m&r coatings. They do alot of headers. Its just black. They also did 2 coats inside and 2 coats outside.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 03/17/21 01:32 AM

Brent - my daughter lived in Dandridge TN near you for a number of years with the Park Service - now in Gettysburg. Wish I had known you were there - it would have made those month long visits more interesting if not more expensive!!! Again, headers are nice.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/19/21 01:42 AM

Well, another interesting day of bad aftermarket quality control. I ordered some crower chromoly machined valve stem locks. When they came I went through inspecting them. 31 good locks and 1 oddball sized lock.

[Linked Image]

Called summit they said they would send another pack.

While I had everything apart I went ahead and checked spring height with a micrometer. Trick Flow says 1.800" installed height. The micrometer i used is proform from summit, I check it against 3 calipers and the gauge was .007" off. All of the specialty tools I have bought are either proform or summit, I believe they are great for what I'm doing.

[Linked Image]

Heights on first head:
1.813, 1.816, 1.812, 1.821, 1.821, 1.807, 1.820, 1.809

Second head:
1.810, 1.815, 1.818, 1.825, 1.829, 1.814, 1.810, 1.820

The numbers listed are from the gauge so subtract .007" from the numbers. Kevin did some figuring and after some discussion he recommended shimming 7 of them with a .015" shim just to bring them all with in tolerance.



Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/19/21 06:06 AM

I also have the Proform spring height gauge, all be it 15 years old, good tool for the money. Buying specialty tools you may only use once we all reluctantly do. I have an expensive rod bolt stretch gauge I need for my built. Used once, hoping not to use it again on that engine.

It usually is some what of a compromise getting all the springs set the exact height, you learn to juggle.

Valve seals. Important. A final assemble item and protect it from damage by the valve stem grooves.


What's that saying, if it wasn't for bad luck I'd have no luck. You are really getting indoctrinated to the world of aftermarket parts. You would think as 1000s of locks roll off the production line they could keep the odd one at bay. Good luck with the new bag.

One of the best tools you can have for a hodge-podge of parts engine is a oil filter cutter. Once drained, cut open, you can look at the pleats and it will tell you what's if anything is going on in the engine. It's such a simple procedure, find myself cutting even the daily driver's filters. With not a Chevy parts in my Chevy engine I inspect every time. Run the Mobil 1 for a long time between changes, just change filter several times a year and add a qt.
Have this one. Pricey. Cheaper ones on the market.
https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=FC01&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

Gordon the stock 305 ran the left side under the header. A bracket was bolted to the block above the oil filter area that held 4 wires. Same side on the back of the head the cruise bracket was mounted, a wire divider went there. I routed a similar route on that side. A 4 wire GM loom on the back of the head, used the 4 wire GM bracket at the oil filter area. Right side made an angle bracket for the back of the head for 4 wires. Welded a 1/4 steel rod off the header flange between 6 and 8 pointed down toward the starter. A GM slide on four wire divider go on the that rod.
Initially a set of Magnacore wires for a 305 L69 was bought, they were a cut to length to fit. So the left side was very close to length. I knew the routing on the right was not stock. Once routed the wires I marked a couple to be shortened. Sent them back to Magnacore and they cut to length and installed the boots. Just cost me one way ship. Expensive wires even back then but felt they were the best wire on the market at that time.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/19/21 12:47 PM

Bob, On any project I do even outside of the car hobby I justify buying specialty tools by the amount I save by doing it myself. I originally didn't have plans of checking all the things I have but I tend to like to learn things and check things with my own eyes, kind of insurance and it makes me feel better. After everything has went the way it has im double and triple checking everything I can within reason. Lol.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/19/21 09:47 PM

So there is one thing I need add about the Trick Flow situation. In the end they stood by their product and customer service. I tried not to be too hard on them but I can't say I was very easy on them either. In the end Eddi admitted they were struggling like alot of companies on staff and inventory due to back ordered parts. He also took full responsibility for sending the wrong heads and apologized. I truly feel all the way through he tried to right the wrongs but the cards were always stacked against him. By doing research about him through this ordeal he's a drag racer and helped a lot of people when they have had problems at the track. I never ask for it but he said in an attempt to make it right he would refund all the money and he did. So in the end Trick Flow, Summit, and most of all Eddi made things right. I have to give them a lot of credit for that. A lot of companies will not do that once they have your money, its on to the next customer.

Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/22/21 12:38 PM

Right now I'm at a small stand still waiting on the valve stem locks from crower. Kevin was nice enough to donate some .015" shims. The pushrods came Saturday so its starting to come together.

I spent all day Saturday and Sunday cleaning up some wiring and making brackets for fans and relays. Its amazing how much time is spent just making little things. Only thing I took pictures of was one side of the fans. They had a big opening so I filled that in, I didnt want it pulling air from the side only straight through the radiator. If you notice the moulding on the center section i have it to go around perimeter also.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/22/21 03:10 PM

This thing didn't make heat yet? What the hell already??? laugh

Keep up the hard work Brent, I know you want it buttoned up more than anyone.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/29/21 01:23 PM

[Linked Image]

Well I was finally able to make some progress. It took a little over a week to get the valve locks shipped from crower. Work comibined with springtime chores has left me short on time. Last night I was able to get the oil pump, oil pan, timing chain cover, and the heads mounted and torqued down. Hopefully tonight or tomorrow evening I will get pushrods in, preload set, intake, and valve covers on. I need to finish a few electrical things and im waiting to get my top airrbox piece and and radiator hold down back from paint. The airbox piece had some paint bubbling and the olds radiator hold down was an odd sheen of black. Semi gloss is what its getting painted. If the rest goes well hopefully I will have it in and buttoned up by the end of next week. Once I get everything going i have a leak to track down. I pulled the carpet back to do some electrical work and found the liner was soaked and molded in this area. Check the rest of the floor and this was the only place.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/29/21 03:12 PM

Seam sealant is leaking. Most likely going to need to pull the fender off to gain access to the exterior firewall corner seams.There is a panel alignmet hole in the corner of the firewall that is poorly sealed with foam.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/29/21 09:34 PM

Man that's some ugly rust, just kidding. Most would say that is pristine and would kill for your floor.

Water can leak in at the cracked seam sealer were the A pillar is joined to the firewall, this a common place. The wipers, cowl trim, and plastic sheeting under the ends of the cowl trim need to be removed to see this area.
Also possible water can come in around windshield and get into the A pillar

To me it looks like the window was open and the carpet got wet. It takes forever to dry out a wet car carpet.
Bob.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/29/21 10:38 PM

Looking good Brent, get that thing buttoned up and installed already.

You know how I dealt with leaking seals? Moved somewhere that in never rains... laugh
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/30/21 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
To me it looks like the window was open and the carpet got wet. It takes forever to dry out a wet car carpet.
Bob.


In the 3 years I've had it, its not ever been in the rain. Never worried about driving it in the rain just hasn't happened. Could not feel any dampness in the carpet at all, just the grey sound/heat insulation underneath. It was not wet on any of the firewall pieces just where I have it circled. I figured once motor is in I will pull the car out, leave carpet pulled back and spray water to see if I can locate a leak.



Originally Posted by SSLance
Looking good Brent, get that thing buttoned up and installed already.

You know how I dealt with leaking seals? Moved somewhere that in never rains... laugh


Its hard to make much progress when you only have an hour or so most nights but it is progress. Starting Friday at 3:00 p.m. I will be off for 11 days. Hope to get everything in and done by end of next week and be driving if all goes well.

I will just have to deal with leaky seals. I love the Smoky Mountains and East Tennessee. I hope I never have to move.

Last night I was able to get guide plates, pushrods, and rockers centered. Guide plates torqued, pushrods in, and rockers on with 1/2 turn preload. Slapped the stock valve covers on and didnt see or hear any issues. Tonight I should be able to get intake on and valve covers. Prime oil pump and make sure I get pressure and everything lubes.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/30/21 04:03 PM

Looking good. I know you can’t wait to put some heat in that thing. 😀
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/30/21 05:36 PM

That is a thing of beauty... And it's gonna ROCK!!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/31/21 02:02 AM

I searched a lot and never could find out if my stock distributor gear is melonized. You find where people say 87 and up was melonized and some people say its not. Its hard to find anything for sure. Here is a article that Kevin found talking about the gears.

https://www.onedirt.com/tech/engine...n-out-of-distributor-gear-compatibility/

I ended up ordering one. One on left is new melonized gear, one on right is oem stock. I dont think going off color that the oem is melonized. It has no type of silver like color where the new one does.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/31/21 05:09 AM

On the cam card that came with the cam it should tell you what material the dist gear should be. Cast, melonized or composite. I looked at Comps specs for that cam on their site and it suggested composite. My Comp is a billet steel with pressed on stub shaft that has the dist drive gear and back bearing journal cast steel. requires a cast gear or composite, I run the composite. A composite gear take the guess work out of what type gear.

Checking the dist gear wear should be another one of those thing you do at a 1000 miles of engine use. With all the variables of part measurements and the mesh of those dist gears is overlooked. It's no different than how important a ring and pinion depth and backlash is important. Just another one of those little details.

When I built the Dart Little M block engine no one told me a stock length oil pump rod was going to be way short. Had to have a BBC oil pump rod machined shorter to have the proper endplay between the pump and dist. Just little details that need to be attended to.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/31/21 12:32 PM

The cam material is austempered ductile iron. It did not say on cam card which gear to use. I called Comp Cams, tech support said to use their composite gear or melonized gear. I would have used the composite but they did not have one for the 0.427" shaft. They only offer a 0.491" and 0.500" shaft size. After that conversation I was on the search to find out if my stock oem gear was melonized. There is lots of references on this forum and 3rd Gen forum that say 87 and up l69 had a melonized gear. After researching with help from Kevin and ordering a melonized gear I do not believe that the oem stock gear is melonized. Thats my guess just going off color and texture and reading what it should look and feel like.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/31/21 08:49 PM

I never knew the 87 CCC dist had a smaller shaft than other SBC dist. 86 and older CCC dist use the .491. Of course 87 up is a different dist than the 86 down. Thought the .491" was the norm for all SBC. Live and learn.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 03/31/21 09:39 PM

Hi Brent, I just read this entire thread and it was a very interesting read. You have been very meticulous, and I expect you will be happy with the result.

Regarding your potential water leak, I also have a leak in both of my Monte Carlos on the driver's side. My carpet didn't have padding underneath, just the hard rubber backing, but it is damp underneath. In this linked thread, I discussed what I did and included pictures that I couldn't find elsewhere. I hope they help you find and resolve your leak.
http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1070151

I hate the timing marks on the top of the balancer; it is very hard to see. On my old Malibu wagon, while the engine was on the stand, I used an older style timing indicator that sits off to the left side and indexed the balancer to match the timing indicator. I used a degree wheel and a piston stop to find TDC and then cut a groove in the balancer for the alternate TDC.

I am a fan of installing the spark plug wires under the header, just as the factory did on the left side. You can use the factory wire holders that bolt to the back of the block (behind the cylinder head) and to the side of the block. The wires will be further away from the header tubes and won't get in your way if you have to remove the valve cover.

In my 1986 Monte Carlo SS, I have a flat tapped Summit K1103 cam, and the computer is happy with it. Your computer will likely be good with your combination.

I always replace the block drain plug (that doesn't have the knock sensor in its place) with a drain valve from a brass/copper radiator. The valve is far easier to operate than using a 9/16 wrench.

Marc
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/01/21 01:24 AM

Bob, I wouldn't have known either way but luckily Kevin came through and helped me once again on the distributor shaft size.

Marc, glad you are enjoying the thread. Ive learned alot and really enjoyed the process.

I meant to comment on your thread about the leak but forgot. Once motor is in and all is well I plan to pull car out and spray with carpet pulled back and see what happens.

I never had any trouble seeing the timing marks before. I took a white paint pen went over the numbers and mark and wiped it off. But your idea is a good one. Might have to look into it down the road.

[Linked Image]

As far as running the plug wires for right now they will stay over the headers. Plug wires are cut to length and the money is already spent on the mounting brackets. They worked good before so hopefully they will be OK.

I already place the drain valve in the block after Bob recommended it. I can imagine that it will be much easier.

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/01/21 02:08 AM

When you screw the knock sensor back in the drain hole on the right side don't over tighten it, no need to. I still run a knock sensor in the same location for my Safeguard. Recently had to remove it to drain coolant. It came out easy but is a mess. The price you pay to have knock retard.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/02/21 01:48 AM

I meant to post this last night because we had some discussion about fitment of stock valve covers earlier in this thread. The Trick Flow 23 175 head has a 0.300" raised lip its hard to see it in the picture but there is right at 1/4" clearance between the valve cover and poly lock. Also once the valve cover is down resting on the lip I was able to move the valve cover front to back with plenty of wiggle room without the baffle making contact with anything. I did not modify the covers at all.
[Linked Image]

At this point I have test fit everything on the stand. It seems all accessories line up with holes. I primed the oil pump to a little over 40 psi and rotated the crank so hopefully got oil everywhere. Before putting valve covers and intake on I poured 1/2 a quart of vr1 on each head covering springs and rockers and used a squirt can to get the valve guides. Hopefully early next week it will be ready to crank. Here is a picture with most of the stuff mounted.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/02/21 03:11 AM

Sure starting to look like an engine again, purty.

Don't think the exhaust ports are raised at all but test fit the P/S bracket that bolts to the first header bolt. Can't tell by the pic if that bracket is on there.

There is a bolt hole in block that isn't bind and is used to hold the fuel pump rod up when installing a pump. Can't remember if it also served as an Air Pump mounting bracket point. It should have a very short 3/8" bolt installed to prevent leaking of oil and crankcase pressure.

The Scorpion rockers are a pretty narrow body, the valve spring OD isn't huge, looks like plenty of room for the valve cover internal oil separators, baffle.
Fel Pro does make a thicker, .250" valve cover gasket if necessary.

Initially tried Dayco Top Cog belts on the engine. Switched all the belts later to Gates, found they ran quieter than those Dayco. A little bit of effort and all that painted on letters and numbers on the belts can be removed. Anal I know.

Is the cruise control going back on?
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/02/21 12:01 PM

Does the oil pressure sender fit with the headers installed? I had to move my sender to the port behind the intake manifold because my Hedman headers interfered with the oil pressure sender. I had to move the knock sensor, too.

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Marc, glad you are enjoying the thread. Ive learned alot and really enjoyed the process.

I meant to comment on your thread about the leak but forgot. Once motor is in and all is well I plan to pull car out and spray with carpet pulled back and see what happens.
Before removing the fender to tackle the seam sealer, I was filling visible voids with butyl ribbon caulk or Ultra Black. I used the hose to check on progress. After some time, I was satisfied I had solved all leaks. Then I had to leave the car outside for a couple of days and it rained. When I opened the door to put the car back inside, there were traces of water inside. I am glad I didn't put the new carpet in yet.

If you check with the hose, it may not be sufficient. When you feel you have no more leaks, leaving it in the rain may be a good validation test.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
There is a bolt hole in block that isn't bind and is used to hold the fuel pump rod up when installing a pump. Can't remember if it also served as an Air Pump mounting bracket point. It should have a very short 3/8" bolt installed to prevent leaking of oil and crankcase pressure.
Brent, be sure to put some thread sealant on that short 3/8" bolt that Bob mentioned.

Marc
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/03/21 01:10 AM

Bob,

Exhaust ports are in stock location on the trick flow 23 175. Its not in the picture but I did test fit the p.s. bracket. No through hole on my block for fuel pump rod. When I put the headers on I did away with air pump. I read lots about that bolt at the time so I put them back in and sealed them. When pulling the motor I needed to pull the fuel pump off for some reason so I got a longer bolt screwed it in til I felt resistance, pulled fuel pump and the rod slid right out. Looked at hole and its blind. Cruise control is not going back on. Its not worked since I had the car and im not a big cruise control person. Also by removing it I had a good hole in the firewall to run my added electric circuit along with the a/f ratio and Vacuum gauge cables.

[Linked Image]

Marc, when I installed the headers I put a close nipple with a 90° and then the sender. It is in the picture below. Everything worked fine. If I remember right I think Lance used a 45° elbow. Knock sensor was fine also.

[Linked Image]

Here is a picture of my thermostat spacer block. Not sure on configuration I will use but everything cleared and all plugs had room to plug in. I posted it in case someone is looking for options.

[Linked Image]

Also this is my plug wire setup that I spoke of earlier in the thread. No issues at all with taking valve covers off. I understand the heat soak issue with them being above the headers but its what I have at the moment. I also got this idea off Lance.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/03/21 01:22 AM

The hole right below the blind hole, appears to be through.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/03/21 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by T5montecarlo
The hole right below the blind hole, appears to be through.


Yes, it is a through hole to nothing but open air. I was just showing that there is no open hole at the fuel pump rod passage. Maybe just another oddity of my block.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/03/21 04:17 PM

No wonder that engine looks so familiar... laugh beer
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/04/21 11:47 AM

One of the things I did today was checked the remflex gasket against the head and the header flange. They needed a small amount of opening up and a little trimmed off for my plug wire mounts. You need to be extremely careful with the gasket they crack very easy. Only way I could clearance is with a sanding roll. The stuff makes a mess. Almost like anti seize, it was all over the place and all over me. I know some of you have unusual situations when it comes to gaskets and I noticed they offer custom gasket making. Not sure on the price but its an option.

[Linked Image]

I did make some progress last night. I didnt plan on doing anything with it till Monday morning but I had some free time. I got motor mount bolts in and all but one bell housing bolt. Probably won't get to do anymore till tomorrow.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/04/21 01:10 PM

Happy Easter all!

You did make good progress. Won't be long now!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/06/21 01:26 AM

I should be ready to fire off at some point tomorrow. Thought it would be today but I took a lot of time trying to get everything right and cleaning up everything. Plus I'm pretty sure I have checked every bolt atleast 6 times. Finished running everything for my Vacuum gauge and wideband. I decided against the electric fans at the moment, for one I didnt want to be worried about cooling on start up and im just not very happy with the spacer block under the thermostat for the temp sensors. Sits up too high and gets in the way of several things. This is one of the things I regret because I should have put a lot more thought and research into it. Might still end up going the route Bob did on the fan controller. Atleast I upgraded to the 12si 140 amp alternator and upgraded all my wiring so thats done. I am really impressed with all the cables I ordered from ce electric. Hopefully be back here tomorrow with all good news. One other thing, ive been a nervous wreck all day thinking of everything that could go wrong on startup. Is this the same for everyone else?

[Linked Image]
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/06/21 02:20 AM

I think most are a bit anxious when firing an engine for the first time after major mods, but as you do more it ends up being more excitement than worry.

Last time I did major mods to mine, I wrapped up about 2:00 am Saturday morning. I wanted to fire it off so bad I could taste it. However, it involved installing new headers that wouldn't bolt up to the old exhaust and I like all but one of my neighbors. I tossed and turned all "night" trying to get a few hours sleep. Fired if off about 8:00am heading to the muffler shop and "that" neighbor had walked out into his yard before I could get out of the drive-way - lol.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/06/21 02:30 AM

Lots of little thing to check, especially when it been out for a while.

Just fire it and shut it off right away, fuel leak check.

Trans and P/S fluids check right away if you lost any of those fluids.. Most 200 owners run that trans over full, 1/2 qt if I remember.

Timing light ready to set timing as soon as it idles. Timing tables on the PROM don't like to much initial timing, 8 should be a good starting point. Follow the directions on the sticker on the fan shroud.

My first start took a month to get right. A Steward water pump on a Dart Little M block. Have done dozens of refills on a SBC but never had one that wouldn't circulate right away. Tried everything, called Steward to insure they sent me the correct pump rotation, raised the front bumper 2' to make the rad cap the high point, ran a hose right into the rad, called Steward several times, no help, no circulation. Pulled the pump and sent it back to Steward and while waiting install an Edelbrock pump. Circulated right away, HUHHHHH? Ran that pump for several years until it exploded the powdered metal impeller. Bought a Weiand pump and after examining it saw CHINA stamped on the back, sent it right back to Summit. Steward had sent me a replacement pump previously which was sitting back on the shelf. Gotta give this another try. What i concluded was the problem and first time was the pump as cavitated. A Dart block does not have a bypass hole in the block, only one hole on the left and one on the right. All SBC have a big and small on the left, the small is bypass. The heater core inlet is the highest point in the cooling system. The trapped air in the top of the pump wouldn't allow coolant to be pulled from the heater core to vacate the air.
On lots of GM engines they have a bleeder right in the thermostat housing to purge the intakes. I made a brass 3/4" hose coupler with a GM purge installed in the Tee and located just before the heater 3/4" outlet. This allows all the air in the heater core and suction side of the pump to be purged. Works great.

So yep stupid stuff happens.

The roller cam really doesn't care much about breakin. The shortblock bearings and rings are already broke in, I would make sure the tailpipes are pointing out the open garage door cause there should, will be smoke for a few seconds from excess oil in the cylinders.

Leave the rad cap off until you see it's full and you have warm circulation coolant visible. As the air is purged from the system the coolant level will keep dropping in the rad, keep a close eye on that. Once satisfied before the really hot water circulates put the cap on and fill the overflow reservoir. Fill it to the specific level when hot. In the morning see where it is and refill to the cold level on the reservoir. Keep and eye on that level over the next couple driving cycles. Always monitor the reservoir level when the engine is stone cold. It should never move if there are no leaks. It's level is as important as the temp gauge readings. 70 degree day, cold engine level should never deviate. First thing my eye sees when I open the hood on a cold engine.

Of course the oil pressure gauge and temp gauge need to be minded for the first 15 minutes. After that it just work on the tune.

Throw the VOM across the battery terminals to insure you are seeing 14+, this to know the alt upgrade is done.

Alum heads and header bolts require frequent checks after heat cool cycles.

I did my electric fan, cold air package, alt wiring upgrades before installing the new engine and drove the car for months to insure all were good. Smart to not complicate your new engine install with potential electric fan problems, fans can get done later once the engine is tweaked.

Just more random thoughts.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/06/21 06:07 PM

Well, fired right up. Shut right down alternator belt was making noise. Fired up again ran for about 5 minutes then shut down. Gauge never got over 180 but the extreme heat off the headers melted all kinds of things within 2 or 3 inches. The main thing is I have a coolant leak that seems to be coming from behind the passenger side head. This sucks.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/06/21 11:01 PM

Oh boy, not what you want to chase on a startup. Could be intake gasket at the #8 area. A little RTV on both sides of the intake manifold gasket at the two front coolant passages. On the back of the engine, #7-#8 the coolant doesn't crossover from the heads into the intake but the manifold gaskets need a smear around the holes in the intake gasket to seal the head coolant port there.

The only other possible is the head gasket or a head bolt leaking and getting past the head gasket. HOPE NOT.

Did the cooling system fill and circulate right away?

Headers cooking everything. Keep an eye on the A/F which will show 14.7 all the time except WOT on a CCC. Monitor the dwell, a lean engine will run hotter and the Dwell will go very low showing the ECM is trying to richen the mixture
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 02:48 AM

My inexperience cost me on this one. I was too worried about getting up to rpm that I really wasn't paying much attention to anything else. Evidently the timing was retarded and it heated up the exhaust so hot that it melted everything within the area and by the time I realized I burnt plug wires and other stuff. After smelling plastic burning I shut down maybe around 5 minutes. While inspecting everything I noticed a pretty good size puddle of coolant maybe a 10 inch circle. Hood is off car, looked behind intake didnt see anything. Felt under passenger side head and it felt wet. It was running down back of block on top of starter. Pulled plugs and none looked wet. Turned it over nothing came out. Took everything off , hit it with a rubber mallet and retorqued the head.

Talked to Kevin and he was the one that realized that the timing was probably off. Told me to turn it a some counterclockwise and see how it fired. Fired right up and checked the timing and it was at 0. Adjusted to 10 degrees and no leak. Ordered some more plug wires and will need to run some new wire loom also ruined the ceramic coating on the headers. Even melted the plastic piece that goes around the steering column and hooks the p.s. tube. Man it was hot. Pay to play. Once again Kevin talked me through it and got me on the right track. Tuned everything and it was running good. Test drive tomorrow.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 06:30 AM

Timing will do that. People don't realize how much timing you need at idle. I run 36 degrees, 17 initial and another 19 with the vac advance, but that's an old school setup, not CCC. Cruising down the highway at 70 over 50 degrees , about 32 degrees total plus the 19 vac advance, Your CCC setup will be over 50 on cruise, I measured it years ago when I ran CCC.

What for antifreeze are you using? Hopefully one of the new universal blends. Have tried various antifreezes over the years. in the old days there was two or three to chose from, today there are dozens. Every manufacture has a special blend. My choice right now is this, a little pricey, hard to find, had to special order a case at Napa, no one else stocks it.
https://peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-and-cool/auto/global-lifetime-full-strength/


I had, have, a leak at the cylinder head gaskets at the back corners when I beat the engine hard, get the juicy flowing in it, oil temps, coolant temps and pressures go up a little. The coolant recovery tank is used to monitor that leaking. Engines been together now 14 years same head gaskets, time for some R&R off the top end, maybe a cam change. NOT, we know how that can snowball.
The intake manifold was removed to do some improvement to it, a little TIG work, and changed the antifreeze to a Zerex G-05.The leaking started with that change to G-05. Even add two tablets to the system and still had to much loss to make me happy. One thing nice about the yellow universals is they are easy to see leakage places, they will appear as whitish yellow dots or trails, old greens just look greasy and wet.

The pills I prefer are these, used them many times but they have there maintenance involved with there use.
https://barsleaks.com/product/radiator-stop-leak-tablets-hdc/
You just can't drop them in most cooling systems, instructions NEED to be followed. Rad cap and neck area need to be looked at often as it's one of the collection points for floating stuff. All the old stuff I work on lately gets a tablet or two anymore.

The head gasket pissing started with the change over to the G-05, two tablets slowed leakage down a little but starting thinking head gaskets, valve job, surfacing, oh boy.
Starting do some reading on antifreezes, and most particularly the universals and what they are all about. Found the G05 is an HOAT, hybrid organic acid technology that is supposed to prevent rust and corrosion, also G05 is supposed to be help stop leaks but think the HOAT causes the leaks.
The system was drained completely of the G05, flushed thoroughly and the Peak Lifetime concentrate and distilled water infused 50/50. One tablet was crushed and deposited into the rad, that was about 1 1/2 years ago. Can say the pissing from head gaskets has stopped, the switch to the Peak Lifetime which is an OAT was the temporary fix for leaking head gaskets. Don't confuse Peak Lifetime with Peak Longlife, or other Peak antifreezes.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 12:18 PM

How much timing is stated on your emissions sticker? My 1986 MCSS states 6 degrees of initial timing; 10 degrees seems high.

To set timing after removing/replacing the distributor, I move the distributor back/forth until I see a spark at the #1 spark plug when the balancer is aligned with the desired timing mark. The distributor location can be fine tuned and then the distributor locked down. The timing will be very close to the desired timing upon startup with that technique and then adjusted, as needed, upon startup. Initial startup is quick. If the distributor is off by a tooth, you will know before trying to start the engine.

I have used this technique several times with both HEI and points distributors.

To see a spark with HEI, you need to move the distributor more quickly back and forth than you need to with a points distributor.

If you have to take the top end off, again, try this timing technique to get it started again. Hopefully, your coolant leak is sorted and you don't need to take the engine apart, again.

Marc
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 12:56 PM

Once I put the custom eprom ive always ran 10 degrees. Even with the stock engine. I did a lot of test drives and to me thats where it seemed to pull the best. When the stock engine was in i marked the distributor and intake so I assumed i would be atleast in the ballpark. But I guess not.

Does anyone have a clue what their ccc idles at as far a/f ratio? With the dwell bouncing between 28-32 im getting 14.2 - 16 on the a/f gauge.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 01:01 PM

Sorry to hear about the troubles Brent. Hope you have everything squared away now though.

I HATE headers on a street car...
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Once I put the custom eprom ive always ran 10 degrees.
Did you program and burn the EPROM? That is quite a unique skill.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 02:39 PM

There is a guy on here that goes by bitflipper. He is the one who programmed and burned the eprom. I still see him on here from time to time.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 02:52 PM

Will you need a new EPROM to match your new combination? The CCC may compensate for fuel, but wonder if your timing table might benefit from changes with the different cam and heads.

I was recently reading about an Android app, called ALDLDroid, that will read live data and log from the ALDL of the early OBD cars that we have.

Marc
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by SSLance
Sorry to hear about the troubles Brent. Hope you have everything squared away now though.

I HATE headers on a street car...


As of now everything is squared away. So far the headers have not really been a problem. The problem has been my inexperience., but you live and you learn. Thank goodness Kevin has been there to bail me out when im lost.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by T5montecarlo
Will you need a new EPROM to match your new combination? The CCC may compensate for fuel, but wonder if your timing table might benefit from changes with the different cam and heads.

I was recently reading about an Android app, called ALDLDroid, that will read live data and log from the ALDL of the early OBD cars that we have.

Marc


If you go to page 4 of this thread you will see all my datalog info and how it converts it to spreadsheet. I also now use one of the extra channels to datalog my a/f gauge. I use ALDL SCAN app on my phone on page 4 it shows all the screens on my phone and all the data I can see. Once I hit record I can make a run and it shows it live on phone but also records and sends it to spreadsheet for my review. Also reads all the codes. I got the setup from 1320 electronics http://www.1320electronics.com/12pin_ALDL_BT_MK2.html
It works with aldl Droid, aldl scan, tunerpro, and tts data master. The guy that builds them is really knowledgeable and a great help.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 03:50 PM

I thought it was this forum where I read about the ALDL app, but couldn't find it in the search. conf
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/07/21 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent

As of now everything is squared away. So far the headers have not really been a problem. The problem has been my inexperience., but you live and you learn. Thank goodness Kevin has been there to bail me out when im lost.


Thanks for the Kudos but it’s your hard work and perseverance that’s paying off for you in the long run. I’ve seen people get frustrated and throw in the towel on a project that’s had less problems pop up than what you’ve had. Hats off to you for rolling up the sleeves and getting right back on that horse after the leak and high heat issue also.

Now I hope you’re going to be able to enjoy the car and take pride in having done all the work yourself. It looks great and anticipate it to run as good as it looks.

With the computer controlling everything except wide open throttle you’re going to be stuck with some things you’re not going to be able to control. Adjustments to the rich and lean stops can help a bit if needed. However I think by keeping the cam reasonable you’re going to be close enough that it shouldn’t be problematic.

if the hack was available to do your own tune via tunerpro like on the tpi cars you could push the envelope a little more. Still. I think you’re going to be happy with the drivability and WOT once you’re able to tune what you can.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/09/21 06:13 AM

I was hoping to hear, "it burns rubber all the way through 2nd gear".

And to add to what Kevin said, patience is a virtue.

About ignition timing using the CCC:
It would be nice if you could actually see what the total timing is at any given engine condition but don't know how to do that. Putting the timing light on the when in closed loop idling in drive will tell you what total is at idle, that can be done. Revving while in Park will most like show timing change but is worthless info because there is no load on the engine. Total timing in cruise, heavy throttle, WOT is what would be good to know but because it's PROM based it runs that program which is programmed,tailored to TPS, VAC, TEMP, even KNOCK input. VAC is the primary driver of that program.
One of the first gift for the 86 was a Hypertech PROM for the 86 ECM. Supposedly a little more aggressive timing, add a few ponies. What I found was the 305 didn't like it, much more ping prone under normal driving, may have been a tad quicker at WOT. Ended up removing it, 20 years later it's resting in the original box on a shelf somewhere, right were it belongs.

So timing is important but just not something you can measure when driving the car. Today's FI capabilities you can see it on a laptop. old school engine you could see it on a dist machine without running the engine, the CCC your at the mercy of the PROM and unable to see how much timing and when.

One thing you could do is monitor the KNOCK module output to the ECM with a VOM. That would tell you the one thing you need to know, whether the engine is detonating under certain conditions. A simple jumper from the module output to a VOM and ground and watch the voltage as you load the engine. Forget just what that is, think like 7.5 volts when happy lower as knock is detected. My 305 would rattle under load when the 200R would shift to 2nd to early while lugging the engine up a hill. Installing the T56 fixed the detonation problem.

As far as that O2 jumping back and forth 14.4- 16 when the Dwell is correct at 28-32 varying could be a couple things. The ECM is trying to maintain a 14.7 most all the time, except WOT. The O2 for the ECM is a narrow band, not as fast as the wideband A/F sensor, so there is lag there. The new cam is not the old cam which the PROM was programmed for so reaction to the new vacuum idle number the cam produces may require a more active MC. The primary rods may not add enough fuel quickly enough to compensate and also lag behind maintaining that 14.7.
That was one area I played with when I was trying to get a little more out of the L69. At the U-pull I took primary rods for ever CCC Qjet and CCC Dual jet carbs laying around in the yards. What i found was virtually all the V-8 Qjets used the same primary rods, a .056 or ,057 with a .026 tip. But the V-6 and some V-8s using the Dual Jet had a far greater range of rods, leaner and richer than the .056/.026 SS rods. I found a .053 with a .025 tip and ran that in the CCC carb. I felt the car was quicker to react for that very brief period of time before the ECM caught up to being fooled, we're talking less than a second.
A slightly richer rod on both the lean and rich steps of the rod I think helped the engine. The L69 carbs primary jets are rich, think they were a windowed 75 jet. I have a few 76 windowed jets pull from i believe 350 CCC. Going from a .056 to a .053 should help tip in from light to heavy throttle. A smaller .025 instead of .026 would richen WOT on the primary side a little.

That was something i was playing with back in the CCC days. But I think it was a win-win. With one of my tweaked Qjets, a set of TES and very good exhaust system and the T56 swap in granny shifting my way down the track ran 14.8s and 94 mph. That's more than a 1/2 sec and 4 or 5 mph over what it ran showroom stock. If it was an automatic with better 60' times it would have been a good bit quicker ET but not mph.

Just more food for thoughts. I should look through my CCC primary rods to see what's in that pile of 20 or so.

Next up is maximizing the use of those huge secondaries.
Bob



Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/10/21 12:51 AM

Sorry I've not gave updates. I fell behind on my honey do list while messing with the motor. I have to say I am more than pleased with the motor. Once I get a few bugs worked out It will be a blast to tap its full potential. It has fully passed my expectations. No one would ever know its a 305 by riding in it. Ive not pushed it to hard yet though. So on to the bugs.

Bob here is the timing table that I found on here for the l69 . Im using a zz4 chip with a few tweaks that I got from bitflipper it supposedly has a more aggressive spark table but I've been unable to find it. Anything above 6° initial timing you would add across the board. Ecm gets to 36 by adding 30 to the initial 6.

[Linked Image]

Luckily my data recorder is supposed to show knocks but I've been unable to get the right program on the data logger so it will get counts. Im waiting now to get a solution back from 1320 electronics always helpful and I just think it's a small glitch on his software. If not ill get out the fluke and try that.

Right now I have the DA rods and the K hangar. So the issue im having now is starting at 3800-4000 rpm im going very lean and just don't have enough fuel and it starts to stumble. Im not sure what is going on there. Its consistent everytime at the same point, here is one of my quick datalogs it looks the same every time. Pay attention to the throttle position volts, rpm, and channel 3 to the far right is my a/f ratio volts. Also below is my A/f ratio chart to volts. Im going to check my float level in the next day or 2 and read up Roes book again and freshen my memory. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Tonight I went to the local cruise in and ran into forum member CM1SCW. Super nice aerocoupe, saddle interior and a ls3 6.2 with the 6l80 I believe.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/10/21 01:16 AM

Hi Brent,

Did you go through the carb adjustments? Set the TPS to 0.5 volts at idle (I think you said it was higher), adjust the mixture screws to set the dwell at 28-32 (I think you said you did this)?

The mixture control column has odd data, where the value didn't change and corresponds to your lean readings. Did it go into open loop for that period?

I don't have a stumble, but I don't have any means to monitor A/F ratio.

I have CE secondary rods in my CCC quadrajet and the original hanger. I remember looking at the Edelbrock tables and chose the skinniest rods I could see. Rochester made skinnier rods; they were so skinny the tips would easily bend.

Marc
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/10/21 02:05 AM

I think before taking the carb apart you see if you can richen the WOT A/F up first.

The choke pull off came from Cliff, do the suck and release test and time the diaphragm takes to go back to 0 applied vac. A good time would be 1 1/2 sec range. Don't want it to fast but needs to be less than 2 sec.

Make sure the sec air valve moves freely. it's possible by over tightening the rearward two airhorn screws to deform the potmetal and touch the valve. At zero tension on the air valve it needs to move freely and touch nothing on it's edges.

How much windup do you have on the sec air valve spring. Don't go by factory number which could be 1 to 1 /2 turns of windup. I would start at 3/4 turn and reduce it until you feel the sec air valve opening quickly and bogging the engine down from an over rich mixture. You would see it on the A/F gauge and on your data logger.
Then add a little tension on the spring, 1/16 turn, until the stubble goes away. Then tune for a 12.0 starting point for WOT.
For S&G I run 1/2 turn there abouts depending on the weather.
Also on the airhorn scribe a O index mark at the windup screws slot to use as a 0 points. Makes playing with the windup visually much easier. Just add one turn or what ever from that mark.

I wouldn't worry to much about breaking anything in. Once you know the cooling system, engine temp, everything is getting oiled, do a couple WOT runs in 2nd up to what you decided max rpm should be. My guess is the heads and cam say +6K, my limit on the bottom end would be stay under that, 5800 or so. Kevin could put good numbers on that.

When to really tune WOT is in 3rd gear on a full pass, 1st to 3rd, like a 1/4 trip at the track. That time in 3rd gear is a good time to be watching the A/F gauge. That is when you know if the fuel system is up to the task, fuel pressure, volume, float level, secondary A/F mixture will tell the story.
Besides a really good primary side of a Qjet it's the secondary side that gets a gold star. At roughly 500 cfm possible it will flow whatever you desire up to 500 and versatile enough to be calibrate at whatever A/F you desire at whatever air valve opening. But that's were the knock on a Qjet comes from, people who can't understand how to tune the secondary.

As far as that timing table for the L69 PROM I could see that as maybe the WOT table but believe that is just a piece of the timing story. With the engine hot , closed loop, idling, timing light on, increase the rpm slowly and watch the timing change. Having a damper or timing cover with at least 50 degrees marked is necessary to see the full range of the timing advance as you go from idle and increase the speed. Throttling the engine, a quick stab, will show a larg increase in timing. Most SBC like all 34-38 total timing in early, 3K rpm or so. To many variable to give a precise number. That's what a chassis dyno is for, tune a specific combo of parts. Timing and A/F at WOT.

Memory tells me when I was playing around with the CCC years ago I saw over 50 degrees BTDC with my light doing the tests above. As a piece of useless info stock LS7 Corvette has well over 50 degrees while cruising down the turnpike. Correct time to match engine load, A/F, rpm, is everything.

Pay attention to the voltage of the Vac sensor. That is key to what the ECM does at WOT. You need to determine at what voltage is the vacuum in the engine is at the lowest, generally below 3" of vac. I see .6 and .7 vdc. i still confused by the MAP and VAC readings but memory says idle is 4+, WOT is less than 1 vdc.
This is when the sec is flowing the most air. You tune WOT A/F ( metering rods and somewhat hanger).

Whole bunch of other tuning tips but lets get into the ball park first.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/10/21 03:08 AM

Bob, you are right in line with what Kevin said as far as things to try on the qjet. When I tried the choke pull off from cliff originally it was right at 1.5 seconds. Ive never messed with the secondary air valve spring. I guess now would be a good time to learn.

As far as cooling goes I decided to go with the hf-125 and the inline copper sensor in bottom hose. Daryll seemed really knowledgeable and helpful. Controller should be here Monday. I just was not happy how things were shaping up with my other option, too many sensors and no adjustability.

Also as you can see on my above data to the far left the new alternator and upgraded wiring is doing a good job. Im definitely pleased with the 12si 140 amp. Ac running, headlights on and no dimming. Thank you for suggesting the alternator company. Great bolt on option.

This chart is not real close to what I have seen but this chart helps me keep it straight in my head, says its to a 5.7 gm sensor. I wish my vacuum gauge had a output to put to my datalog so I could compare to the vacuum sensor. With a little more time I will come up with a baseline and make a chart based on my gauge and sensor voltage.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/10/21 05:03 AM

Brent if you have the Helm shop manual look at Code 34 trouble shooting. .50 to .64 VDC with the key ON engine OFF, so that would be 0 vacuum. Found my notes from 20 years ago. .56 WOT, .382 at idle. Note on the code 34 it states "high voltage (VAC output) increases spark advance, while low voltage reduces spark advance".
That's what makes ignition timing complicated. The ECM is using the PROM's programming for the inputs it sees and adjusting timing and A/F (to maintain the 14.7 at all times except WOT).You are pretty much at the mercy of the timing tables programmed into the PROM. And other than playing with the initial timing it's difficult to see how the PROM uses Vac, Temp, TPS, A/F to change timing.

On the old school 427 a large vac gauge has hung off the rearview mirror several times to see where the engine vac dropped to at WOT. If you had a passenger on board to read the gauge while you are busy running the engine through the rpm range it makes things easier. I've done that also. And I prefer analog gauges to digital any day of the week because my brain can look at the sweep and know instantly what i see, digital jumping all over the place scrambles my brain. Yes I love my digital Fluke VOM for pure accuracy but will use the analog VOM often when questioning a digital reading.

Spend time on the car/engine getting the all the necessary drive ability functions done before dialing in WOT, that's the last thing to do.

Also as a note if you're thinking about chassis dyno time in the future be aware that also is a learning curve. And the guy doing it will be clueless because of the CCC and the super clueless in most all cases on how to tune a Qjet. You are the one who needs to understand the Qjet to reap any rewards from the dyno. Also need to have what you need on hand to make a change. I'll see if i can donate some Qjet stuff to that end.

Oh, love the car form the get-go, you should be proud to pop the hood at a show. You may see many other SSs from bone stock to wild as you go to events. I always like the understated ones, the wolf in sheep's clothing.

I felt the Autocool fan controller was the best choice for me, standalone, robust, weatherproof not waterproof and the sensor in the lower rad hose, I just had to try it. Read to many thing not good or not functional enough about just about all the other standalone controllers.
I bought the 85 because my dual Spals don't pull high current like most of the other high current choices. I also think fan cfm ratings are somewhat like the desire for lots of hp, to much is what you think you need but just a waste of effort and is only about bragging rights. The front nose and the airbox on an SS is there for a purpose and really enhances, directs the flow across the rad any time the car is moving. Electric fans verses the stock clutch fan I feel is about an even trade except maybe at idle when the fans are running full rpm. My fans only run fast if I've been beating on the car and it's sitting idling afterward. Normal driving they may run at low speed but for the most part are off if the A/C is off.

The previous Spal controller was PMW control for one fan and would ramp up that fan's speed to high when necessary. If the sensor saw the engine temp wasn't coming down the second fan would turn on at high speed.
The Autocool is PWM for both fans and they both run at the same speed and ramp up together. A different concept but very effective at keep the engine running a consistent coolant temp.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/10/21 09:51 PM

Bob, Its like you and Kevin have done this all before. I just had a little time to make some changes to the car this morning and made one quick run down the road before the down pour. Supposed to rain for a day or 2.

I was curious to see how the carb would respond. I removed the airfilter and saw that I didn't tighten the screw down that holds down the hanger on the secondaries when I changed the rods for the new motor. I dodged a bullet, the screw had almost came all the way out. That would not have been good. It was also allowing the rods to sit alot lower so that might have been some of the problem. Here is a video with the screw loose and the ill effect it has. Also note how much tension is on the air valve spring.

https://youtu.be/PnncrM-J8t0

I really should of made a test run just after fixing that to see the difference if any but I went ahead and broke the set screw loose and relieved the tension on the air valve spring and might have went back a quarter of a turn. I went too far, but I am glad I got to see that it actually responds to the change. Im very new to this so it was actually good for me to see a change in numbers from a change I made. I went way too rich but here is a quick snippet of it. The engine stumbled pretty bad from going so rich.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

All my gauges in the car are analog. It just wouldn't feel right to me to have digital in the car. I actually love the stock gauges. Yes digital fluke vom is nice. Everything at work is 480v and above, when checking motors windings going phase to phase and phase to ground we use the analog triplet meter, just easier too use and more trusted. If we aren't satisfied with what we see next we get the megger meter out but we all have our own digital and analog meter but only one megger for all to share.

I feel like I'm in good territory with the normal drivability settings. Still plenty of tweaking to do but I just wanted to get the secondaries in the ballpark. I have all day Tuesday to myself so I plan on fine tuning everything the best I can and just learn from there and keep making it better.

It will probably be winter before I even think about the chassis dyno. Definitely going to do it but I have a lot to learn on the tuning side. I have a long ways to go but I am enjoying it.

Thank you for the compliments on the car Bob. I am proud of it. I get why people have the frown on their face when they ask if its a 350 and I tell them its a 305. Ive also found that most people in their mind believe that their 350 is making 500 h.p. because they put an exhaust and a intake on it with a "rv" cam. When in all honesty they are probably just a little over 325 h.p. at the crank. Its funny what people think based on what they read or what their buddy told them. I really had put it in my mind that the 305 would be a disappointment but it was something to learn on and get a little extra power from while I planned beefing up the rear-end and deciding on a transmission for a bigger engine. I don't regret it all and the engine has already exceeded my expectations and if in the same situation would do it again. Its a beast by no means but its a pretty healthy little engine and I've not come close to its full potential. I think people frown about the 305 because they or someone they knew had one and they weren't realistic about what it is and tried some mods and didn't respond the way they thought it should.

Im looking forward to the autocool controller. I actually read about and looked at some other controllers after not being happy with the controller I have and I feel that its the best option. Also Daryll seemed like a straight shooter and that helped also.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/11/21 02:32 AM

Before these links disappear for good here's some good reading on Qjets. Self education on a carb, particularly the Qjet is necessary because the info is literally dying, along with the people who know how to tune them. I was playing with Qjets 20 years before Al Gore invented the internet. The internet opened the door to information sharing, that door is closed now. Many of my bookmarked info sites are gone now.

Not sure how many links work here but it was an extensive collection in it's day.
http://www.florida4x4.com/tech/quadrajet/index.php

http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/damon.htm

http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/damon2.htm

Print this one and put it in your tool box. I have a copy that is part of my carb track tuning cigar box. The page of the range of sec rods i use is glued to the lid of that box.
https://www.thirdgen.org/rods/

Notice how much variation there is in each cluster of rods, HUGE. One of the things that makes a Qjet so versatile. Most all of these rods are long gone. I have maybe 20 of the important rods that would be used in a perf engine. Aslo another dozen really fat, lean, rods which could be machined to a smaller, richer, rod. That's what Ruggles has been doing to provide rods now.

When Edelbrock bought the Carter carb business, ie his Performer carbs, he also got the Carter Qjet rights and produced Qjets also. When Rochester couldn't produce enough Qjets to meet demand Carter was used to produce Qjets. On the side of the Qjet you will see Rochester cast into the main body. If a Carter casting then Carter was cast into the side of the body. Having several dozen Qjets bought for parts and cores I have seen a few Carters.
https://www.carburetion.com/Rochester.asp

That is why Edel was selling Qjet parts for years via Summit but i see they are no longer there. Big needle and seats, main jets, pri and sec rods but limited in scope and gone now. The primary side of a CCC is unique to it, but he sec side is virtually the same as all the Qjets produced since, well the 70s.

Some good videos.
https://gbodyforum.com/threads/gm-ccc-service-videos.76761/

This is the factory's bible on setting up a Dualjet carb. It is identical to the primary side of a CCC Qjet.
http://tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/Rochester/DualJet/E2M/service/1980DualJetE2M.pdf


Lars Grimsrud was a wealth of info back in the day. His links and info are falling through the cracks in the internet today.
https://www.digitalcorvettes.com/threads/quadrajet-info-by-lars.88376/

Nothing good on tv, more rambling.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/11/21 12:37 PM

Bob, if you are concerned about a link dying, check to see if it has already been saved in Archive.org. If it hasn't, follow the prompts to save it. Some of the links you provided were not archived, so I saved today's snapshot.

Check archive.org to see if your dead links can be retrieved from archive.org. If so, you can update your links.

Marc
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/11/21 07:40 PM

I removed the charcoal ring and the deflector plate inside my stock air filter housing. I have never replaced the air filter. Does anyone of suggestions on good flowing air filters for the stock setup?
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/11/21 09:52 PM

Hi Brent - Here's a nice way to cut through the hyperbole/stigma of the 305 vs. the 350: the 305 is 87% of the displacement volume of the 350. Everything else is subordinate to that ratio.

Here's my global impression of how hotrodder's opinions read to me:

1. Torque, or hp, or acceleration of two different motors goes as: (CID1/CID2)^10. That's why a 350 is four times better than a 305, as everyone knows.
2. Hotrodder's version of Newton's second law: a~ f^10 and a~m^-0.0001. That's why adding 1,000 lb to a car is nothing, but adding 10 hp is everything. (Deliberately playing fast and loose with quantities and units.)

Of course, I'm being sarcastic. Well, almost... smile

Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/11/21 10:02 PM

I always felt the 305 stigma came from the low HP 2-barrel version in the late 1970s.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/11/21 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Before these links disappear for good here's some good reading on Qjets. Self education on a carb, particularly the Qjet is necessary because the info is literally dying, along with the people who know how to tune them. I was playing with Qjets 20 years before Al Gore invented the internet. The internet opened the door to information sharing, that door is closed now. Many of my bookmarked info sites are gone now.

Not sure how many links work here but it was an extensive collection in it's day.
http://www.florida4x4.com/tech/quadrajet/index.php

http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/damon.htm

http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/damon2.htm

Print this one and put it in your tool box. I have a copy that is part of my carb track tuning cigar box. The page of the range of sec rods i use is glued to the lid of that box.
https://www.thirdgen.org/rods/

Notice how much variation there is in each cluster of rods, HUGE. One of the things that makes a Qjet so versatile. Most all of these rods are long gone. I have maybe 20 of the important rods that would be used in a perf engine. Aslo another dozen really fat, lean, rods which could be machined to a smaller, richer, rod. That's what Ruggles has been doing to provide rods now.

When Edelbrock bought the Carter carb business, ie his Performer carbs, he also got the Carter Qjet rights and produced Qjets also. When Rochester couldn't produce enough Qjets to meet demand Carter was used to produce Qjets. On the side of the Qjet you will see Rochester cast into the main body. If a Carter casting then Carter was cast into the side of the body. Having several dozen Qjets bought for parts and cores I have seen a few Carters.
https://www.carburetion.com/Rochester.asp

That is why Edel was selling Qjet parts for years via Summit but i see they are no longer there. Big needle and seats, main jets, pri and sec rods but limited in scope and gone now. The primary side of a CCC is unique to it, but he sec side is virtually the same as all the Qjets produced since, well the 70s.

Some good videos.
https://gbodyforum.com/threads/gm-ccc-service-videos.76761/

This is the factory's bible on setting up a Dualjet carb. It is identical to the primary side of a CCC Qjet.
http://tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/Rochester/DualJet/E2M/service/1980DualJetE2M.pdf


Lars Grimsrud was a wealth of info back in the day. His links and info are falling through the cracks in the internet today.
https://www.digitalcorvettes.com/threads/quadrajet-info-by-lars.88376/

Nothing good on tv, more rambling.
Bob




The internet is temporary and infomation can still become lost in time. Alot of these various writeups were posted back in Web 1.0 days and stuff from that era is dissppearing fast in these Web 2.0 times. This is in conjuction with real world issues of most gearheads and mechanics only learning OBD2 EFI and scorning anything pre OBD2. Further compounding this are marketers who push modern engine swaps to make your old car that was never ever cool even back when it was new finally cool. Any info you find must be saved.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/12/21 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
I removed the charcoal ring and the deflector plate inside my stock air filter housing. I have never replaced the air filter. Does anyone of suggestions on good flowing air filters for the stock setup?


Couple of options.
1) Get a stock replacement K&N E-1500 (3.5" tall)
.. a) Run with the lid "closed/down" - Not much increase in power over stock
.. b) Get a 12" air cleaner lid to run in place of the stock lid - similar to 'flipping the lid". More available air, although hotter, still performs better than the stock lid down
......This is a link to a $38 (shipped) knock-off K&N 12" x 3.5" filter with a 12" lid. This should work in the stock air cleaner with the stock lid and give you the 12" top to play around with
...... https://www.assaultracing.com/item/4681977-chrme-12-air-cleaner-wfilter-flat-base
;;;;;; Looked around and can only find one place that sells a 12" lid (chrome or black) - both appear to be around $31 shipped though (surely one can be found for less)
...... https://www.cfrperformance.com/searchresults.asp?Search=12%22+AIR+CLEANER+TOP&Submit=

2) Stack two Wix 42101 filters (or comparable - same dimensions except 2.5" tall - 5" total). 1.5" taller overall but only about an 1" more filter area ( due to the stacking). You can still get the hood closed and it won't booger up the hood lining like flipping the lid will do. Cheaper than buying the K&N and a 12" lid but with about the same performance.

3) Build a custom dual snorkel ram air set up to pull in fresh-air. I removed the two high-beams and opened up the bucket area to get a real "ram-air" effect. It was crude looking, but effective. That was then and not going to do that when I get the car back on the road. I've relocated the battery and it'll have that FIRST TPI instead of a carb, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to run a "Y" pipe and drop two big cone filters in the front fender/bumper area.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build - 04/12/21 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
When I replaced the radiator I decided I wanted to refinish the top airbox plate due to some paint peeling from water getting under it. That has to be the worst piece ever to try to remove and the one bolt behind the nose is a bear to get to. I said a lot of not so good words. Off topic but it was frustrating.
When I replaced my airbox cover, I also had a very hard time with that bolt you mention. I bought a ratcheting 10-mm box wrench and reassembly was a breeze. I wish I had that ratcheting box wrench when I took the cover off.

Marc
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/12/21 04:09 AM

I agree with Kevin, put a K&N 1500 in the stock housing and lid. Have been using the same one for must be 20 years. Easy to clean and if you get it's air supply from a clean location it doesn't get dirty.
Bought the K&N filter cleaning/lube stuff way back when, used it once.

We flipped the lids when I was a kid, sounded cool, filter got dirty fast.

For cold air a pair of 4" ducts are feed from each side of the airbox to a dual snorkel F-body housing. Clean air, most consistent air i determined on the front of the car. Manometer testing at most all the possible places to get cold, clean air, had possible positive pressure, and most importantly, consistent, the airbox seemed the winner.
There is a small price to pay for using the airbox, just small. When the electric fans are running at full speed they pull a lot of air through the grille, 95% or higher, a paper test is cool. The fresh air for the carb is coming from the ducts in the airbox, the fans at high speed will pull a negative pressure on the ducts when the car is not moving. The carb knows that and the A/F changes while the fans are cranking, the idle vac changes. It's not really noticeable in the way the engine idles, you see it in the A/F gauge and vac gauge. This will also happen when the A/C system cycles the fans but the load the compressor adds to the engine hides it .

The stock PCV works well, don't change anything about it. Reusing the stock intake, valve covers, and everything fits back together.

In the filter housing is a white fiber filter, this is fresh air supply inlet to the crankcase as long as the PCV valve is used to suck the fumes from the crankcase. At WOT crankcase pressure is higher, the engine vac goes real low, the valve restrict flow to the carb and the fresh air intake becomes the crankcase exhaust port. The carb at WOT is sucking air in the housing, the fresh air is now blowing crankcase fumes into the housing. Again a good setup.
You can use the white filter as a monitoring tool. At WOT the crankcase "fumes" will show up as a oily ring on the filter. How much or how little oil shows up there
gives a little info on the health of the engine.

Recently added a Mighty Mouse catch can system to the engine. It at WOT, low vac. purges crankcase pressure to the front of the air cleaner housing and used the same filter/housing as the stock clean air setup. I just buy the white filter cheap, and monitor the dots on both filters. Works great to keep an eye on blowby.

Blowby also shows up on the carbs throttle body where the 3/8" PCV hose dumps the fumes on a stock system. This is true of all GM PCV that dump under the carb, they get dirty there. More blowby from a loose engine, more oil. A catch can help catch the oil and water, less dumped under the carb.

Also removed the charcoal ring in the housing. Yes it's part of the emission system design, but nobody will ever know it's gone. It's purpose was to soak up the evaporating fuel vapors from that stinky carb as the car cooled down. Air flow through it when the engine was sucking air purged it. It's presence I felt impeded air flow through the filter being so close to it. So it went.
Never smell fuel when the car is parked hot inside. Besides the crap ethanol gas today evaporates in no time out of the carb.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/14/21 01:45 AM

Drove the car quite a bit today, maybe 50 miles. Just out driving normal it stayed between 14 and 15. I ended up going with around 1/2+ 1/16th turn on the air valve spring tension also took out the DA rods and went back with DR rods and that leaned it back up enough to get it around 12 on the a/f at wot. One thing I don't care for is how rich it is at idle. As stated earlier it bounces back and forth between 14 and 16 and sometimes to 17 a/f ratio. Im pretty sure when it goes lean to 16 or 17 the computer dumps the fuel back to it to get it back to 14. Not sure when it started doing this but I noticed first when I did my exhaust back last year. Any suggestions? I tried different idle rpm, messed with rich and lean stop, checked for nozzle drip, messed with the dwell. I have no clue. Not a huge deal considering how well everything else is. I ran it up to 5500 r.p.m. and man that thing has some zip. Im really pleased.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/14/21 02:28 AM

If your engine is running lean at idle it could be a vacuum leak as they can suddenly appear without warning. If the engine is running lean, the computer will respond rich to offset it. Of course if the engine is running rich, the computer will respond lean.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/14/21 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Buick Runner
If your engine is running lean at idle it could be a vacuum leak as they can suddenly appear without warning. If the engine is running lean, the computer will respond rich to offset it. Of course if the engine is running rich, the computer will respond lean.


Here is a quick snippet of the a/f gauge. Its not very long. To me its like its slowly going lean then it dumps the fuel to it to make it go rich. I will look for a vacuum leak.

https://youtu.be/s7IzebbJGT0
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/14/21 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Here is a quick snippet of the a/f gauge. Its not very long. To me its like its slowly going lean then it dumps the fuel to it to make it go rich. I will look for a vacuum leak.
https://youtu.be/s7IzebbJGT0


I don't see anything that would concern me at all in that video. I sure wouldn't consider 14:1 "rich" (even at idle). Plus, while the gauge is more than likely accurate, you really need to pull a front and rear spark plug to see if the color on the plugs are consistent with what you're seeing on the gauge. My guess is they're going to look pretty close to perfect, if not perfect.

However, as Buick said, the creeping to 17 very well could be an indication of a small vacuum leak. Does it creep more when it's cold and less when it warms up?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 01:04 AM

I planned on pulling the plugs tonight but had some other things to take care of. Hopefully pull them in the next day or 2. The idle A/f ratio does not bother me but when idling in the garage it definitely has a rich smell to the exhaust. Maybe thats just how it is with a lot of the emission stuff gone.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 01:38 AM

Check the fuel pressure. Most replacement fuel pumps these days put out too much PSI and force the needle valve open. If the PSI is too high you will need to install a fuel regulator, this is a widespread problem for older cars that use mechanical fuel pumps anymore. As for vacuum leaks, a newly installed carb gasket will need retorquing after a few heat cycles, I just updated my old thread about Qjet retorquing with the factory procedure.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 01:44 AM

Still using the original fuel pump. On the gasket I will check again but this has been constant during idle back last year since the new exhaust. May have always been this way just didn't notice it till the exhaust was opened up. At this point if this is the biggest problem I have im golden. Im more than happy with everything. Just something small to nitpick.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 05:01 AM

I wouldn't be to worried about fuel pressure, just pay attention to nozzle drip when lid is off the air cleaner.

The varying vac at idle i would also be double checking for a potential vac leak somewhere. I think 15" is on the low side, 17 would be normal. But just a guess on how the engine likes the new, bigger cam. Also vac while idling in park with no load shouldn't vary much. Also would think a steady vac would also make the A/F gauge deviation a lot more steady, maybe + or - .2 from the 14.7 the ECM is trying to maintain.

You can do the process of elimination. While idling disconnect the various places one at a time that use vac and plug them, see if that effect the vac.

Did you install a new carb to intake gasket?

Something I thought about, polylocks on the rocker arms. I've seen plenty of poly locks back off because the setscrew didn't bite the top of the stud. I don't tighten the Allen while holding the polylock hex. I find where the polylock is turned to to get proper preload, back it off a hair and turn the Allen until it tight against the top of the stud, then turn the polylock and Allen together to that predetermined polylock position. That does a lot better job at preventing the Allen from backing off.
Hope that makes sense.

Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 12:50 PM

No nozzle drip that I could see a day or 2 ago when checking. Brand new carb to intake gasket from cliff torque to gm specs listed in my book. At the end of the video I put it back in park. In park just idling the gauge is between 19-20". The vac gauge varies with the air/fuel mixture.

Probably be a day or 2 before I get to mess with it. Drained the radiator last night to install the inline copper sensor in the bottom radiator hose. Then install electric fans and get all the wiring done. Bob, I hope you don't mind but im copying your box and placement for the autocool controller. Im pretty sure if you and Lance saw my car you both would see ideas from both of your cars and Kevin would see all his knowledge and ideas in the motor. Gordon would see his ideas in some of the wiring. What is it they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I figure if it works for you guys it will work for me.

Bob, where did you pull switched power from for the fan controller? I thought about the choke heater but not sure yet.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 04:47 PM

Not a problem, I've done more than my fair share of imitation.

I would need to go back and look at where I got IGN power for the controller. Don't want to tell you something that may not be correct. That info is probably in a folder at my shop.
The amp draw on the IGN power terminal of the controller would be very low. The Choke heater circuit could be used but would need to get power at the oil pressure switch input power, not at the choke. You may have also got power for the heated O2 sensor at that switch. The C/H fuse should be a 20A fuse. Would think the choke heater coil, O2 heater and fan controller IGN would be less than 20A total. But they are all consuming amperage full time.

As i said i will need to check where I got IGN power for the controller.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 05:42 PM

Don't go to all that trouble Bob. Just wondering if you could remember off the top of your head. Yes c/h is powering my ccc heated o2. I will look in my electrical supplement book and see what my other options are. Instructions say all wires to 7 pin terminal should be 20 awg so it shouldn't pull much.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/15/21 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
No nozzle drip that I could see a day or 2 ago when checking. Brand new carb to intake gasket from cliff torque to gm specs listed in my book. At the end of the video I put it back in park. In park just idling the gauge is between 19-20". The vac gauge varies with the air/fuel mixture.

Probably be a day or 2 before I get to mess with it. Drained the radiator last night to install the inline copper sensor in the bottom radiator hose. Then install electric fans and get all the wiring done. Bob, I hope you don't mind but im copying your box and placement for the autocool controller. Im pretty sure if you and Lance saw my car you both would see ideas from both of your cars and Kevin would see all his knowledge and ideas in the motor. Gordon would see his ideas in some of the wiring. What is it they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I figure if it works for you guys it will work for me.

Bob, where did you pull switched power from for the fan controller? I thought about the choke heater but not sure yet.



You should check the fuel pressure just to rule it out. With bigger cams you often need to advance the base ignition timing more than stock to improve idle quality and be able to further close the throttle valves at idle. Check the carb mounting bolt torque, if they ard still at least 60 in/lb leave them alone. However, if they are less than 60 in/lb you need to retorque them to 96 inch/lb. A inch/lb wench really should be used for torquing the carb as it is more accurate than foot/lb wenches.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/16/21 04:39 AM

Brent look as I might I couldn't find, remember where, I picked up 12 vdc IGN power for the controller. I reused the IGN supply feed wire that was first used on the Spal controller 15 years ago. Time doesn't heal things, it makes you forget things. I can follow my orange 16 gauge feed until it gets to the pass valve cover. When the engine was installed all the harnesses were taken apart, both engine and ECM harnesses , and lots of relocating was done and then all tidied up to bury all the changes made. That orange wire is buried in the engine harness.
I found the wiring diagram/instructions for the Autocool 85, I ran 16 gauge for most wires and 12 for the fans, 6 for the common fan ground.
Install a switch for the fail safe mode under the dash or somewhere convenient. Mine is in the console behind the shifter. A lighted rocker switch turns the fans ON, the light tell the dummy they are in Fail Safe mode. I've used it several times at the drag when running round robin.

What are you doing about A/C request to the controller? A high pressure switch was added to the high pressure port behind the accumulator. IGN power comes from the low pressure switch to supply 12vdc to the HP switch, then runs to the controller. The controller now turns ON when system pressure goes up and turns off as system pressure drops to not needing fans. Most will run the request off the low pressure switch. So every time the compressor clutch pulled in the fans turn ON.
You have the electrical load of both the clutch and fans hitting the electrical system at once. And also the load of the compressor on the engine at that time. I found it better to separate the the "hits", A/C cycling is a lot smoother, less deviation in idle speed load.

My system is R12, it uses an R12 high pressure switch, a 134A system would require a different, higher operating pressure, switch. Somewhere I have that part number for a 134 switch.

Did you break open the A/C system when you pulled the engine? If so while you have all that electric fan mounting being done, coolant drained, it would be a good time to change the condenser for a more efficient one. There is a drop in, plug and play replacement for that. If i was using 134 that would be high on my list of A/C improvements. Ice cold A/C is a good thing, wouldn't leave home without it.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/16/21 01:38 PM

After looking at the electrical supplement manual im probably just going to pull power off the c/h at the oil pressure switch. Checking several times with a fluke amp clamp I've not seen over 3.5 amps for the heated o2. Not checked the amps on the c/h but I can't imagine it pulling many amps. Not 100% sure I'm going that way but its looking like it.

I have a small toggle switch i was going to use on the fail safe but hadn't really thought where to put it. Console is definitely a option. I am sizing per his instructions and based off of fan amp draw. 10 awg for fans, all wires to 7 pin terminal 20 awg, 6 awg on the ground.

I was going to to just pull off the low pressure switch. To be honest I haven't put much thought to it. What you are saying about electrical load on system using low pressure switch is true. If I get time today I will see if I can hunt down the part number for a high pressure switch for the 134a.

I did not break the ac open . Down the road if I have ac problems I will definitely get the part numbers for the upgrade. Im not completely satisfied with the ac output but it will keep it cool. Another project for another day.

The hf-125 controller might be a bit larger than the 85 that you have. Doing some test fitting im not so sure it is going to fit where you put your controller. Last night I kept trying other options. I found a few other places but I would probably remove the white lettering on the case so it wasn't as obvious, just kind of sticks out, not really what im going for.


Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/16/21 03:25 PM

Not sure how much I've chimed in here, but I'm glad you got it running, and it has been quite the rollercoaster for you. I enjoy doing things as a learning process, so even watching you has been an enjoyable (though frustrating on your behalf) learning experience.
That said, I will second Bob's suggestion for driving the fan from the high pressure port. From a system controls perspective, it is the most direct, most efficient, and most effective way to do it, fans are meant to reduce high head pressure. Having the head pressure control the fan is the "right" way to do it. That said, there are thousands of cars running around with electric fans run off the clutch signal or low pressure side or a manual switch that stays on that work perfectly adequate(ish). Add it to the list, it's a worthwhile upgrade, but don't worry if it doesn't make it into the current project phase.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/16/21 04:58 PM

Shawn, Thank you for chiming in, glad you have enjoyed following along. Like you said its been frustrating but enjoyable and rewarding. I would do it again in a heartbeat and I have learned a lot for down the road when building the next motor. Also the engine has exceeded my expectations. A few problems have been self inflicted but there is always a lesson to be learned

What you have suggested is what I plan too do. Use the low pressure switch until I can acquire a high pressure switch. I didnt even give it any thought as I have just always seen people run it off the low side until Bob pointed out the positives and you reaffirmed them for running off the high pressure switch. Tonight when wiring i will make it easily reversible.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 Build - 04/17/21 01:56 PM

A high pressure switch for the A/C would install right into the high pressure port behind the accumulator. The only down side is with the switch in that port you have no place to hook a high pressure gauge to check the high pressure. This shouldn't be a problem and can be worked around. if necessary.

Being I'm running R12 my hp switch is different than a 134 switch because high pressure in a 134 system is a good bit higher. The switch i uses is a Four Seasons 36663 which is a 125-190 OFF/ON. The switch I think for 134 would be a 36660 which is a higher operating pressure, My old Four Seasons catalog lists specs at ON 150/260 and OFF 100/200 but says it's a two speed fan switch. When i look at that switch on Rockauto it says 150 ON. Also it has three terminals which suggests it was used to control factory dual fans. Would think it can be used as a single switch to control high pressure, one pressure.
Also because the Monte was an original R12 system finding a simple switch to install on the high pressure port is harder as the 134 systems use different threads at the high and low ports. Adapters are need at those ports when you change to 134.

Both the hp switches listed will just screw right into the hp port which I believe a 3/8-24 thread.

The 36660 switch uses a 37226 pigtail connector which may be hard to find. The 36663 R12 switch i used has a 37227 pigtail which i bought and made it a simple factory looking install.

Shawn may be able to better define working high pressure on a 134 conversion in our cars. My guess is 150 OFF, 250 ON is a good guess.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/20/21 01:30 AM

I'm happy that the old fan shroud is out of the way, I didnt realize how much it would clean it up. Fans are installed. Still need to finish wiring. Hopefully be done Thursday afternoon.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/20/21 01:59 AM

Is that an Oldsmobile or Buick radiator hold down?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/20/21 10:10 AM

Olds, I kept looking for an original but every one I found was pretty rusted and not cheap so I just bought a repop.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 03:59 PM

Fans are in and all the wiring harnesses are made. Hooked all my wiring to the autocoolguy fan controller for a test run. Controller was not bolted in and car was idling while I set everything up. Im really impressed with the autocoolguy controller. Instructions say to adjust controller where the outlet temp out of the radiator is 10-15° below the thermostat temp I did that using my fluke temp gun. It is set around 165° which kept the engine temp for ccc at 182-185 ,turned Ac on fans sped up. Tested fail safe switch in console and all is good. Today I plan to mount and wire loom everything.

I did have one problem. I have the 140 amp 12 si alternator. I upsized the cables from battery to alternator and battery to starter, ofc cable. Can't remember the info on the battery but its a 2 year old ac delco. With the car idling, fans on and ac on the power went low enough that the a/f gauge quit working. Ive not looked it up but I think Gordon or Kevin said the gauge needed 13v + to function. Do I need a better battery ( I will list battery info this evening)? Was it just from all the sitting and idling it has done? Im going to get the meter and amp clamp out tonight and dig around? It surprised me, I thought I had tied up all my loose ends but evidently not. Another install picture, I will get some of controller once its done.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 04:48 PM

Is your pulley on the alternator oversize? Or the crank pulley undersize? I had to go back to a smaller pulley on my alternator to get it to put enough amps out at idle to run all my stuff on full blast. Mine was dipping down into the low 12s at idle with everything on high. Now it never drops below 13v and is typically closer to 14v.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 05:01 PM

Brent, with the car running in idle, run a voltage profile starting at the alternator, to battery, to fuse block to A/F connection behind radio (do not break connection to A/F, but get it while operating). Any other spots that seem to be accessible along the way? You have installed a new chassis ground at the gauge but also check other grounds: resistance between it and battery ground and resistance between alternator chassis/ground to battery. You have upgraded power out but the ground is the power return part of the loop and just as important. Check voltage drop across A/F power and gauge. May be poor connections, Wiring from power lead at radio might be too small (despite fuse being large enough)? There is no problem when you give it a bit of gas? SpeedHut told me 12.6v is minimum at which it (sensor heater) turns on, so they recommend 13+v. What is idle for you - 650? Should jump to 800+ with ac on? Unless the battery is dying, it is not a necessary part of this circuit.
Looks like a primo install!
Gordon
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 05:02 PM

Good to know Lance. I haven't even thought of pulley size. Im running the stock pulley on everything. I will dig in and monitor voltage and amps tonight or tomorrow. Pulley size is something to think about.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 05:11 PM

Gordon, will look at everything and measure as you have suggested. Idle is 650-700 and ac around 800-850 if I remember correctly. I didnt get into it too much last night. My focus was mainly on fans. When I flipped ac and lights on the gauge quit working. As soon as I saw that I knew from what you had said that my issue was the voltage.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 05:27 PM

Look for the weak links (that may be problems later) and then change the pulley. I like that. Thanks Lance!
Gordon
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 11:13 PM

Lance, I'm going to check everything first and monitor my voltage. If I decide its needed is this what you would be referring too?

"March Performance - Black Aluminum Alternator & Crank Power & Amp Series Pulley Kit" https://marchperformance.com/chevy/...luminum-alternator-crank-pulley-kit.html

Also, anyone have any negatives that might come with going this route?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/21/21 11:22 PM

Brent glad you're liking the controller. Once you get the coolant temp desired dialed in you shouldn't have to play with the controller again. After a couple seasons with mine I moved it one click just to increase the engine temp a little, the only time i ever touched it in two years.

A #4 on the Alt output now runs to a + terminal on the fender. From there it feed the battery + and the two fans. This allowed me to reuse the OEM battery cable which is sufficient to run the all of the car needs. No 10000 watts amps here.

Currently running a 12SI 140 A alternator, and I feel you should see 14+ if you take a reading right off the battery post while idling, I'm at 14.3. Put a load on the system , headlights and blower fan, take a reading at the battery. Next turn the fans on, check the volt again. You shouldn't see much change in voltage at the battery. I drop of less than 1/4 volt would be good. Low to mid 14 is what you want, everything will like that slightly higher voltage, with the exception of the 12 volt bulbs in the car, that shorten their life.

Previous 100A alt couldn't keep up to in rush when the headlights were on and both fans licked in when running A/C. Both fans turn ON high speed when used as condenser cooling. There is no PWN control so inrush of the load on the system is high. Most noticeable before when the headlights were on with the 100 A alt. Now with the 140A barely noticeable. The Spal dual 11" fans are fused at 25A each, they pull less than that, one of the reasons I run them, lower amp draw. If the fans used pull a lot more than that it will be noticeable when they turn, voltage would drop but should come back up to 14s after the inrush.

When the engine is hot idling disconnect the - from the battery and see what voltage is at the battery wires. You should see very little voltage change, the engine can run without a battery and you should see close to the same voltage as with the battery tied in. Could be a battery problem, could be a somwhere in the wiring or grounding but don't think so.
Check the output right off the alt output, everything turned off and engine idling. Throw a load on the alt and see if the output changes. It may drop a little but should jump right back to close to the no load voltage.

You should have mentioned if anyone had a nice rad support cover, there may be one nice one left at the shop, Sold a 1/2 dozen nice one I picked back in the day. Of course the nicest one is on my car. The OEMs were a very nice stamping, a heavy gauge, but OEM finish varied. And they are difficult to just do a quick respray on due to the paint GM used, grazing at the the edges of a spot repair was common.
You need a couple more plastic clips on the rad support that hold the hard line to it.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/22/21 12:20 AM

Bob, running from the battery + to the alternator is a 4awg, battery + to starter is 2 awg, and battery+ to terminal block above my battery is a 8 awg . It feeds the fused 40 amp 10 awg wire that powers the fans and a fused 1 amp 20 awg that feeds the fan controller. Nothing extra electrically on my car other than 2 gauges, 2 o2 sensors, fan controller, and fans. I will test everything electrically tomorrow as far voltage goes, check grounds and let everyone know what I find. Great suggestions from everyone.

Didn't even think about asking on here about the radiator hold down. My airbox top plate had some paint bubbling so I had it and radiator hold down sprayed ppg defleet semi gloss black. Hold down is kind of thin kind of common with overseas repops. Why more clips for the hardline?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/22/21 03:23 AM

Three holes in the rad cover. You easily straighten that tube out and it will lay nicely across the cover, three clips make it look pretty and keep it from moving around. I'll send you a pic.

The top of the air box can get kinda crappy looking with age. Mine had a quarter size bubble at the back right corner viewed from the front. That required surgery, cut the rusted sheetmetal out and make a 2" patch, MIG it in and hide it. Repainting the top of the air box is a PITA when it install on the car. Lots of work and even had a small fire from the welding. Learned a good lesson there, don't use anything for spark protection that has wax on it. Only cost me a couple hours to repair a couple wires that got cooked and some repaint. Not a big deal, just a dumb deal.

I was lucky and caught it early. Worked at a factory were we built utility trucks, frame extensions, diamond plate bumper fab, that kinds stuff. As a rookie they "learn ya" what a fire looks like with your helmet on. The clown would throw a solvent rag behind you while your welding up a 6" channel to the back of the F350 chassis. Doesn't take long before you know a glow in the helmet needs to be attended to. Funny guys.

I deviated from the wiring diagram with the 85 unit. I ran 12 + power to a 25A fuse, then to the fan. Each fan has a 12+ and a fuse. One fan's - to the A and the other fan's - to the B. Also ran 12 AGW for all fan wires.

Did you check the amp draw of those fans? Some of the dual gets to 40A+ on high. You could run the fans on high for a few minutes and see if the fuse is warm. That's a good indicator of whether the circuit is good to go on a fuse. Warm, trouble down the road.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/24/21 01:55 PM

Brent, found two of those plastic clips for that A/C hard line.

As far as a high pressure switch hoping Hunter will jump in here with numbers for the operating high pressures on a 134 system. If you look at GM vehicles on Rockauto that are 134 and use a high pressure switch to control fan ON/OFF they all use the same switch. They are a 283psi ON, 210psi OFF.
The problem you always run into when a R12 is changed to 134 is the threads on the high and low test ports are different. Adapters are installed to allow 134 into an old 12 system. The high port on the 12 is a 3/8-24 thread. Not sure what thread 134 uses but isn't important if you find a switch with correct ON/OFF high pressures and is 3/8-24.

That switch I suggested is 3/8-24, 36660, and has three wires, and has available two different pressures. According to my 2000 Four Season parts catalog it has ON 150/250 and OFF 100/200. With three terminals on the switch I assume you could do either 150 ON-100 OFF, or 250 ON- 200 OFF. The catalog also states it a fan control switch.

At the high pressure port you could screw that switch onto the hp port with no 134 loss and meter the switch as the fans are run to see when the switch goes closed.
My thinking on 134 is the 250 ON and 200 OFF is close to what is needed. R12 runs at a much low high pressure so the switch I use, 190-125 doesn't work well with 134.

Not the A/C guru, just trial and error, a bunch of reading and talked to a couple A/C techs I knew back 15 years ago when i did the swap from 134 back to R12.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/25/21 01:21 AM

Not what I would want to use but it's an interesting option if some one is looking. Pressure switch is not correct but it would give you more options for switches.

https://nostalgicac.com/oil-flush-r...switch-w-r-134a-discharge-port-7-16.html
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/25/21 04:13 AM

That adapter I bought just to see what it offered. Think it's #59965. Wanted a T for the high pressure access port so one side was for the high pressure switch and the other to be the gauge test port. Unfortunately no such T was available for R12, It would be nice to have the high port available for a gauge on my R12 system. Think that 134 T is in the A/C build parts box now.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/25/21 04:23 AM

Switch, #36660 Specs shown.
https://www.4s.com/en/ecatalog?part=36660&type=p&search=s
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/25/21 05:38 PM

Ordered the 36660 switch. I will test it when I get it. Not a easy piece to find. Only place I found in stock was ebay NOS was $32 . Can't find the pigtail but it looks like this one is the same just made by standard motors. In over places the s594 is used as a ac switch wiring. Does it look familiar?

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=50249

Also cross references to this gm part

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005E3Q32W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_YXKR82MA4JR6FVYQNWCT
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/26/21 05:01 AM

It appears that switch and that plug should mate up. At the least a cheap trial and possible error. Gotta buy and try stuff before it gets any harder to buy good stuff.

That switch was kinda the 134 standard for the early GM electric fan cars, and it could do duals. Once the PCM/BCM took over the fans operation things changed. You'll know right away whether the fan cycling and the compressor cycling events work together.

Assuming the low pressure cycling switch is an adjustable and low side for a 134 has been tweaked already.

Write down the low and high pressures as the clutch and fans cycle. Ambient temp and humidity, outlet temp in the center dash port. All kinda simple but lets you know what the system is doing.
With the new HP switch then installed you can only read the low pressure side, how often the system is cycling off the low press, and dash outlet temp, they will give you good indicators of how well the high pressure set points are working. Sounds simple enough but we need to remember that the system is designed for R12, had a constantly running mechanical clutch fan with no current draw, and now we are guessing at what pressure on the high side do we want the fans to turn on and off on. And the switches available that will plug and play are limited. Good thing is the wiring is very simple for a high pressure switch. You can easily use just wire nuts temporarily to change back and forth between using either low or the high switch to control the fans.

Advantages of doing the high pressure switch I've found.
Less current surge with A/C clutch engages, compressor clutch turns on first, followed by fans shortly after, less effect on idle speed.
When a cold day and you need defrost both heater and A/C are ON. High pressure in the system builds much slower because of the cold ambient, fans will run less often and for less time to cool the condenser. That benefits the warm up of the engine and engine coolant. Why runs the fans if not necessary on a cold day startup needing defrost.
When at highways speeds and air flow over the condenser is very high the fans most times don't need to run. If fans are cycled off the low pressure switch at highway speeds they are running excessively, every time the compressor clutch kicks in.

My Fluke has a very accurate temp probe, termistor, I stick in the center port of the dash. Have seen high 30's on a 90 degree day idling, sometimes frost on the vent area. Reminds me of the big Caddies and Chryslers of the day that spit ice cubes out the vents.
Don't rely on infrared guns to monitor the outlet port temp. Used to have those little analog probes I stuck in the vent grille. The digital Flute gives me a lot quicker and accurate reading when the system is cycling. You also should drive the car monitoring the vent temp.

Slow day here, stuck in the house, HTH.
Bob
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/26/21 07:52 PM

Sorry I was late to the game, but I'm not sure I could be much help anyway, looks like Bob steered you in a good direction. He also hit the nail on the head for why running fans off the high pressure is the best option. 200 or 260 psi should work fine either way, any difference is going to be personal preference and based on your conditions. You could go as high as 300, but I probably wouldn't unless you needed to for some other reason. And if your switch is not the right configuration as far as Normally Open vs Normally Closed and your fans run at anything UNDER 200 psi, you can run it through a relay to flip it back around. From the specs shown, I'd read that 36660 as opening contacts at the higher pressure, but I usually have a way of overcomplicating stuff like that and flipping it in my head.
Running a Tee would certainly be the best option, but as a backup, just make sure you run the fans at full speed when you are charging, and (as long as the switch has the schrader valve compressor in it) just remove the pressure switch when you need to test operation or recharge. You would want to lock on the fan operation anyway when charging, otherwise you wouldn't get system stabilization like you want.

I worked in R&D for Lennox commercial units, we had 3 major variables (outdoor temp 45-120 degrees, indoor temp 60-85 degrees, indoor humidity 40-80%). We worked to fix the other variable as much as possible (outdoor fan speed was typically fixed, indoor fan speed varied but generally was set to a handful of set volumes, Compressor speed was fixed..). And that was a crew of engineers and technicians spending hours in controlled laboratory conditions to get charge levels right. On automotove, you have variable indoor temperature 20-150 degrees, variable indoor speed, variable indoor humidity including cold but humid all the way to hot and dry, variable outdoor temps, variable outdoor fan (when you are talking clutch fans), variable compressor speed and operation, and coils that are 10% of the volume of a residential system at best, but still expected to put out between 5 and 15 tons of cooling under certain conditions. And you are typically doing it in a garage rather than controlled environment. So basically, math goes out the window and you end up making decisions based on what "ought to" work and trial and error. I don't envy the HVAC design engineers for the OEM's, they have their work cut out for them.

But back in the real world with old cars and retrofit solutions, parallel flow in a 134a system, high pressure controlling the fans, low pressure controlling the compressor cycling, changing your filter/drier when you open the system, and adjusting charge based on the temperature charts you find online are basically the way to go for most folks smile
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/27/21 01:23 PM

Thanks Hunter.
Even though I have a good friend that is a commercial HVAC engineer and another that works for Trane programming commercial new installs when it comes to car A/C and trying to make something designed for one freon to work with another different one it's always been a trial and error and trying to make the best of the what you have to work with.

So finding a good fan/high pressure turn on point and how that point effects the system is trial and error. Lots of variable like fan cfm, ambient, charge in the system, compressor performance all play a part in the end result.

I don't think Brent system was opened during the engine R&R. If necessary later that's when the better condenser goes in,, new accumulator and even replace the R12 line set with a 134 rated set.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/27/21 04:36 PM

When my friend charged my setup, he used a meter to measure the temps of the two lines going into and out of the evaporator. I don't remember what ratio he was looking for but he added touches of freon until he got those two temps in his comfort zone. We had AC on Max and blower fan on high, engine idling and cooling fans on low speed. He liked the high and low side pressures but was a bit concerned because the compressor stayed running, it would not cycle off at idle. Once we bumped the RPM up the compressor started cycling as it should and kept the high and low side pressures where he liked them.

Being in Arizona and owning an auto repair shop for 25 years, my friend got very good at maximizing AC efficiency in cars. He had a Snap On AC setup\recovery system and when used with his knowledge and simple temp measuring tools he was able to dial it right in.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/28/21 01:43 PM

Not had time to do much been working in the yard . I rarely pop the hood anytime i go anywhere but there were a few more things I wanted to do. I tried scrubbing overflow bottle but could never get it clean so I ordered a new one along with a new hood liner. One other thing I did was add the 5.0 liter h.o. decal. When I was 16 and had the monte ls with European front end I thought the Pontiacs and Camaros with that decal looked so cool and always wondered why the monte ss didn't have it. I know its been done a million times over but i put one on and have to say I'm pretty happy with it and the engine bay overall.

[Linked Image]

I've been driving the car and everything is good . I still have a few minor issues that I'm going to troubleshoot and work on ive already brought these up just haven't took the time to dig in.

1. The power issue i am having, fire the car up 13.9 to 14v, fans kick on 13.4v to 13.5v, ac on with fans going 12.8v to 13.v. All this happens driving or idling. Everything works fine except my a/f gauge as soon as it hits 13v it just sways between 14 and 15 volts and soon as the system even dips to 12.9v or below it completely stops working. Voltages above is at the alternator to battery ground. I checked all grounds and they seem to be solid. Didnt put the fluke amp clamp on yet to see amp draw on fans but with them on high in fail safe mode for around 15 minutes , wiring or 40 amp fuse was hardly even warm. Ive not disconnected
completely from battery to see how it does. Im off 4 days this weekend so on Monday and Tuesday I plan to test and dig in more. At first thought I dont feel like the alternator is recovering like it should. Who knows.

2. When idling still having issue with keeping a/f around 14.7, it will still slowly creep leaner and leaner and finally it will throw enough fuel to it to bring it back to 14.7 then it slowly starts to creep again and just does it over and over. Exhaust smell is not pleasant and the wife for sure does not like it. Everything is torqued correctly and no nozzle drip. Sent Cliff a video of a/f and vacuum gauge while idling and also sent him my datalogging info while idling here is some of his response :

"Try bottoming out the upper idle airbleed adjustment and re-adjusting the mixture screws to see if you can get some control or sensitivity with them.

 If not, a larger idle tube will be needed, but before you do that make sure you don’t have any “nozzle drip”, or throttle plates open too far......"

I plan to work on that on Monday or Tuesday.

3. Pull the valve covers to take a look and check everything and make sure polylocks are good to go.

4. Look for what sounds like a small exhaust leak. Might just be my imagination. My friend from work says he doesn't hear anything. Last time I had success finding a leak I taped a plastic bag around one exhaust pipe, shoved the vacuum wand in the other with tape around it and went everywhere with soapy water. It was leaking from the bottom of #7. The new remflex gaskets fixed that one.

5. Once I get the high pressure switch and harness im going to experiment with that triggering the fans.

Nothing major just small annoyances.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/28/21 02:58 PM

An exhaust leak at the exhaust manifold can let fresh air in and trick the O2 sensor into thinking its leaner than it really is. Other thing is since some of the emission componets are timed to engine temps, perhaps one of them does not begin to leak vacuum until after warm up. If you have a Mityvac check the various vacuum motors and diaphragms for leaks.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/28/21 04:19 PM

Either I have an exhaust leak on both sides or the leak (if I do have one) is not changing what the o2 sees. One of the first things I did was swap sides on the standalone o2 and the ccc o2 and I didnt see any changes. I removed the lines one at a time and placed vacuum caps on each port on the carburetor and would wait a minute or 2 I never got any change. I also moved the idle mixture screws from 3 turns to 7 or 8 turns out and never saw much of a control change at all. Of course when you kept screwing them in it would bog it down. A lot of this was done hurrying around. On my days off I plan to give it a more systematic approach on the carb and power issue and will try these things again.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/29/21 01:14 AM

45° Double flare or single flare on fuel lines, or use 37° an flare? I would think the 45° double flare would be the way to go. Putting a tee in fuel line to check fuel pressure.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 04/29/21 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Either I have an exhaust leak on both sides or the leak (if I do have one) is not changing what the o2 sees. One of the first things I did was swap sides on the standalone o2 and the ccc o2 and I didnt see any changes. I removed the lines one at a time and placed vacuum caps on each port on the carburetor and would wait a minute or 2 I never got any change. I also moved the idle mixture screws from 3 turns to 7 or 8 turns out and never saw much of a control change at all. Of course when you kept screwing them in it would bog it down. A lot of this was done hurrying around. On my days off I plan to give it a more systematic approach on the carb and power issue and will try these things again.


I would start checking the various vacuum motors and diaphragms for vacuum leaks with a Mityvac, including the brake booster. See if the carb needs to be retorqued and check the vacuum source fittings for the brake booster and HVAC. Check the back of the baseplate to make sure it didn't crack under the port for the brake booster vacuum fitting. Overtightening that fitting can crack the baseplate.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/03/21 02:53 AM

Another possible vacuum leak I didn't think of until now is the two O rings for thd IAB valve. If they are bad they can cause a nasty leak. Also may want to check thd IAB valve itself to make sure its not sticking.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/07/21 11:16 AM

Finally took some time to see what was going on with the power and take some measurements here is what I came up with. Where i have fan listed in fail safe mode that means they are at full power. Alternator is a 140 amp, 12si from alternatorparts.com.

Hooked to battery to check volts= Fluke 177
What i used to check amps =Fluke 374 FC

IDLE, no load, r.pm. at 800
Battery 14.43v
Alt. to Battery cable 10.1 amps
Battery to starter cable 12.3 amps

Idle, lights on, r.p.m. at 800
Battery 14.36v
Alt to battery cable 27.4 amps
Battery to Starter cable 24.3 amps

Idle, lights on, blower on high heat, r.p.m. 775
Battery 14.2v
Alt to battery cable 46.7 amps
Battery to starter cable 46.9 amps

Idle, lights on, blower on high heat, fans on fail safe, r.p.m. 725
Battery 13.6v
Alt to battery cable 67 amps
Battery to starter cable 41 amps
Fans in fail safe 22 amps

Idle, lights on, ac on high, fans on fail safe
700 r.p.m.
Battery 12.8 v
Alt to battery cable 59 amps
Battery to starter cable 42.3 amps
Fans 20.8 amps
Ac clutch green/white wire 2.6 amps

Idle, everything off except controller running fans. 800 r.p.m.
Battery 14.2v
Alt to Battery cable 21 amps
Battery to starter 8.5 amps
Fans ran by controller 9 amps

Idle, ac on high, fans ran by controller, 800 r.p.m.
Battery 13.7-14 volts 
Alt to battery cable 54.8 amps
Battery to starter cable 33 amps
Fans ran by controller 18 amps
Ac clutch green/white wire 2.5 amps


Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/07/21 01:14 PM

Looks like to me the 700 rpm with AC and fans on high is your issue. Wonder what would happen if you set base idle to 850?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/07/21 03:08 PM

Lance, I sent these numbers to Bob last night via email. His electrical system is pretty close to mine, even the same alternator. He seemed to be at the same conclusion as you and I would agree. My car has the idle solenoid which would kick it up some rpm but you have to tap the gas to get it to kick in. It will not push throttle open by itself. Bob said his car is a manual, 850 r.p.m. at idle and nearly 50% more cubic inches so should have a little more torque to help overcome drag of ac compressor. I will raise the idle this evening and see how it behaves. My plan is to initiate the load on the system, as I monitor rpm on my phone I will slowly increase rpm 25-50 rpm at a time, watch amps on the wire coming from alternator to battery, and monitor voltage and battery and see what happens. Its hard to beat having good solid data in front of you to help make decisions and trouble shoot.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/07/21 04:00 PM

Yup, agree completely... I used the data coming in on my Holley LCD screen to diagnose the issues I was having with my voltage drops. When you can see the changes happening in real time it really helps diagnose the root of the problem.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/07/21 09:37 PM

Brent checked my voltages, engine hot today.
Battery 12.6 engine off.
14.6 no load on system, engine idling at 800.
14.2 fans on fail safe, 800 rpm
14.1 fans on, A/C, lights , A/C with blower on high, 800 RPM

When i drop the engine rpm to 600 rpm the voltage drops to 12.9 with the full load on it.

So pretty much mirrors what you are finding. At lower than 750 rpm the alt isn't outputting 14+ when loaded. I rarely see below 750 RPM at idle even with the A/C on and the solenoid not extended. My guess is that alt just can't put out 14+ when heavily loaded and below 700 rpm in my case. The lowest reading for me under all conditions is 13.7, 750 rpm with everything running. Only turned the idle speed to 600 to see what would happen to voltage.

Checked the coolant temps with the pyro after a long drive. Brass inlet to the rad was 183, on the side of the sensor in the lower rad hose saw 145, inlet alum of the water pump was 155.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/08/21 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by SSLance
Is your pulley on the alternator oversize? Or the crank pulley undersize? I had to go back to a smaller pulley on my alternator to get it to put enough amps out at idle to run all my stuff on full blast. Mine was dipping down into the low 12s at idle with everything on high. Now it never drops below 13v and is typically closer to 14v.

If you're not happy with an increased idle speed, then I'd look into a smaller pulley as Lance indicated. If the new alternator came with a pulley, might want to check to see if it happens to be larger than the stock SS pulley.

Never dealt with these folks, but it lists the most common sizes and gives enough information you could calculate how much smaller a pulley you would need. You don't want to go any smaller and it takes to get the desired results.
https://alternatorparts.com/alternator-pulley-size.html
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/08/21 05:04 AM

A month or so ago when the plastic fan exploded on my Quick Start 140A a phone call to talk about exactly that was made to them. The discussion was about max operating rpm for an alt and relationship of pulley ratios. And was told a 6K rpm engine speed at a 3:1 is 18K at the alt. Not good, exceeds the max rpm of the alt internals. For me going to a smaller pulley to spin the alt faster is not a good idea.

The pulley on the new alt is the same size as the previous alt I ran for years which was a 100A 12SI from another alt builder who is now defunct. With the upgrade to the new 140A 12SI I have no issues with low rpm voltage output because my engine rarely sees idle speeds below 800 rpm with very high amp loads.

I was actually thinking about going to a larger pulley to reduce alt rpm when the engine runs above 6K, which is also rare and only for a short time. I've already paid the price for a alt cooling fan explosion, a goose egg size dent in the cowl hood. Just got my fingers crossed that doesn't happen again.
Bob
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/08/21 02:47 PM

Might want to think about going with a CS alternator as that put out more at lower RPMs. A CS130 is a near direct replacement for a SI.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/08/21 05:53 PM

Will, how near is near? Apart from the plug, are the mounting points the same?
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/08/21 07:51 PM

Interesting. As with all electromagnetically-based generators, unregulated current will go in proportion to RPM, and output power as the square of rpm. In addition, each goes in direct proportion to the Bl product (the key metric of generator force factor) of the generator. Generator mass will tend to go as the square root of Bl. That's basically it.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/08/21 08:24 PM

I have to say that for 99.9% of people the 12si would be more than enough. I actually have no problems at all with the system fully loaded except my a/f gauge from speedhut drops out at anything below 13v. Im more than happy and have been other than the gauge dropping out. Driving around even with air and headlights on and fans running voltage stays above 13v and all is well. Its just when sitting and idling for a while it starts to take its toll.

Last night I put the car in gear and set the rpm to 825, might play around with it and see how low i can go while watching my amps and voltage. Surprisingly when put in park that is 1125 rpm. To me that seems like a lot but im fine with it. It cured the voltage issue and I don't sit around places and idle in park. Can anyone else confirm difference of park and in gear idle rpm on a 305 with ccc?

So I ordered 2 extensions for my nb & wb o2 so when I want to move them from side to side its a lot easier. While I was doing the above with the rpm all I had plugged in and available was the ccc nb o2. I adjusted the rpm and was checking tps, adjusting the mixture control%. While doing this I noticed the o2 milivolt was going back and forth the way it should and my o2 cross counts where counting up faster than they have been since I built the engine which should mean a lot more steady a/f ratio and the bad exhaust smell was gone. Also vacuum at idle was a steady 20".So maybe i have just been letting the car idle way to low. Atleast the voltage issue is solved for the moment and maybe the carb issue we will see.

Would the smaller pulley work? Sure it would. No telling how many high horsepower cars are running around with one. I might even look in to it but for now I will just ride with it and see how it goes.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/08/21 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by T5montecarlo
Will, how near is near? Apart from the plug, are the mounting points the same?


They come with the mounting ears clocked at different positions. The 180 degree versions mount nearly directly to stock L69 mounting brackets. I only needed to insert a washer as a shim under one the alternator bracket's mounting tab to the intake manifold to align things up. The one I got even had the correct 5 rib pulley.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/09/21 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by MAP
Interesting. As with all electromagnetically-based generators, unregulated current will go in proportion to RPM, and output power as the square of rpm. In addition, each goes in direct proportion to the Bl product (the key metric of generator force factor) of the generator. Generator mass will tend to go as the square root of Bl. That's basically it.


Map, I agree atleast until I take the time to work through what all you said then I probably will still agree. 1+1=2 , math doesn't lie.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/09/21 05:12 PM

Supposedly the SI series have design limitations that affect their cooling capacity and low RPM current output. The SI series are infamous for their low current output at idle speeds, even with modified high amp versions. Basically the SI alternators could not keep up with increasing electrical demands such as EFI, electric fuel pumps, electric fans, etc. This is supposedly why GM designed the CS series with better low RPM current output. The 105 amp CS130 is supposed to put out 60 amps at idle speed and the CS144s are even better. The CS series also are more efficient, consume less HP, weigh less, have fewer parts, run cooler, produce cleaner electricity, and last longer than SI alternators.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/09/21 11:30 PM

12si did have upgrades from 10si as far as cooling. I was told by the guy who built mine who also offers cs that the cooling was just marginally better from his 12si. Also as far as low output at idle Lance even though he is running a few extra things went with a cs-144 with a smaller pulley, he states he is at 14.3v with just fans running at idle, im at 14.2v with just fans running at idle as is Bob. With everything on at idle and small pulley Lance is at 12.8v, with everything on and 700 r.p.m. im at 12.8v, with rpm over 800 im around 13.4. Now that my idle is 800 or a little above im not having the issue and im still running the stock pulley. Im sure gm did improve some things with the cs, but as seen in his thread even the cs comes up a little short depending on what you are running and might need a little help with the small pulley idle. Im completely happy now with my choice with the idle bumped up and would do the same again . Again the only issue I ever had was it dropping barely below 13 with everything on and my a/f gauge dropping out.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 01:27 PM

I think the real answer is a T56 swap... laugh

That would most certainly solve the idle speed drop in gear issue.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 01:58 PM

I've been weighing options for which route I want to go. Winter project, this is one of the options.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 03:53 PM

So... YES!!! laugh

Is your engine a 1 piece rear main seal setup? That will determine a lot of factors in clutch and transmission choices.

If you haven't already there is a crap ton of great info in the G-Body manual swap thread here. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to buy one of these "bolt in" kits knowing in advance I'd be wanting to modify the crossmember to get the tail of the trans up as high as possible. Also Header choices play a big part in these decisions...

Can't wait to see where this goes...
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 04:52 PM

That's some awesome advice going on here, exactly why car guys stick together so well!
Alternator not charging at idle? Well, you can increase the idle speed, but that causes a few irritations and compromises. Swapping to a different style alternator is also an option, but costs more and may require some trial and error modifications, really needs to be looked at closely for the right parts combo.
Swapping out the transmission from an automatic to a "row-your-own" will completely fix the idle speed in park issue though, and there's an entire thread (or 8) on the parts combinations for a stick shift. Sure, it costs 20 times more than the next most expensive option, but clearly it's the right choice in the long run lmao
I love this hobby...

I hope you bought nice flowers yesterday. If so, leave the print out of the parts list on the table next to the vase. Guaranteed to work driving
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 05:40 PM

Lance, 1 piece seal. The place the quote came from is silver star transmissions (formerly Keisler), they are about 15 minutes away from me so I checked them first. I also have a running list for pieceing it together myself. Also still on the fence between tkx and t56. Why the trans tail up high as posssible?

Shawn, earlier in this thread I was looking for a $5 gauge pod blank. In a matter of hours I had multiple post about needing to buy a $200 vacuum gauge. Things can escalate quickly here and yes I bought the vacuum gauge to fill the hole. It was the only logical decision, nothing else would work, lol. I hope my wife never gets on this forum,, she will see where all my ideas that cost money come from. I have the high pressure switch and pigtail, just haven't had time to mess with it once I do ill report back on it.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 05:57 PM

"I hope you bought nice flowers yesterday. If so, leave the print out of the parts list on the table next to the vase. Guaranteed to work."

Shawn, don't think you've been married long enough. Getting close to 50 years of bliss and that doesn't work anymore. The "no news is good new" works better now.

As a big proponent of putting a stick shift in a car I'm all for a swap. But today the price can get really hefty to do the swap. My T56 brand new was $1950 delivered to the front door. Today we're talking twice that just for a trans. But it's all the other pieces of the swap that can really add up quickly.

And with a driveshaft it's length can need changed if you swap rear end, another high dollar item.

And having a Muncie 4 spd when i was a kid that you could hold the gas pedal to the floor and bang gears is something a T56 is not good for. The new TKX 5spd is supposed to have that capability and would be a trans I would definitely need to consider.

Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by 88ssBrent
Also still on the fence between tkx and t56. Why the trans tail up high as posssible?



Especially on lowered cars, it is important to get the tailshaft as high as possible in order to be able to get U-joints in sync. For example, on my car we got the tailshaft up high enough that the trans is pointed 3.5* down which means I pointed the rear pinion shaft 3.5* up and I have zero driveline vibration issues. Say you use a bolt in crossmember and the trans is pointed 4 or 4.5* down, then you'd need to point the pinion 4-4.5* up to get them back in sync...huge difference.

A friend is putting one of the new TKXs in his GTO right now. I'm very interested to see how he likes it. I'll report back.
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/10/21 08:36 PM

12 years for me, guess I still have some learning to do!

I'll be watching the TKX with interest as I know a bunch of other folks are too. There's slim chances I'll be able to actually do one, but I enjoy the dreaming and planning as much as I like the doing and driving. It seems like a good option for a relative budget option that has plenty of strength etc.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/11/21 12:10 AM

Bob, the more ive searched the more I like the TKX. From what I have seen to budget for the swap a person probably needs to have around $6000. Not cheap. If I was to buy everything putting my own "kit" together and modify my gforce cross member I think I could get it done for around $5000. Not a solid number but once I'm done figuring i will know where I stand before committing too it.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/11/21 12:43 AM

Do you need an 11-inch clutch vs. a 10.5-inch clutch? The larger clutch will take more energy to spin, but will hold more power than the 10.5-inch clutch.

It isn't clear to me from the parts list, but is the clutch slave built into the release bearing?
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/11/21 01:08 AM

The TKX does look like a very well-made transmission.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/11/21 04:37 AM

The one thing you need to remember about the TKX is it's a replacement for an old school Muncie, T10, Saginaw, some T5 swaps. It's 4 bolt pattern, input shaft length and it's bearing retainer (throwout bearing support) are for that install. So the trans will work with an old school bellhousing, 153 or 168 flywheel (one or two piece seal) and either mechanical or hydraulic pedal. It would bolt right into my car after extensive crossmember mods and a longer driveshaft.

I've been reading what I can find on that trans. I find it interesting that market, classics cars, is finally being served with a new trans you can bang gears with, and for the most part a bolt in if the car is already a stick. I'm sure Quicktime already has a bellhousing to put that trans behind an LS.

Brent. The next engine is what you are spending money on for a stick swap, build accordingly. It can make an expensive stick swap more expensive if the engine changes later.


Shifter location. Tremec says 25 3/4" from the back of the engine to the center of the most rearward shifter location. I wonder how that aligns in the console?

Only time will tell how much tunnel dollying will need to be done to get it high up in the G body tunnel.

The manual for the TKX.
https://tremec.com/anexos/TKX-Parts.Manual-PL_TKX_09.2020.pdf
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/11/21 12:27 PM

The Parts Manual and Service Manual state max rpm is 6200. Modern Driveline stated 8000.

The Service Manual conveniently ignores removing the front race for the cluster shaft, which is in a blind hole. I hope there are notches behind the race to allow use of a puller attached to a slide hammer.
https://www.tremec.com/anexos/TKX-Service.Manual-SM_TKX_09.2020.pdf
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/11/21 04:00 PM

Silver star sales the individual components. I atleast will order the trans tkx or t56 from them, once again they are only 15 minutes away. He said they have 26 different options as far as shifter placement for the tkx. He said the one they have for my car would be exactly where my shifter is now. Below is a picture of some of the positions. Also a link from holley that compares it to other transmissions measurement wise. Silver star says 7500 r.p.m., When I spoke to American powertrain they said the stock one that they tested for tremec was around 8000 r.p.m. and had no issues running it for half a season at the drag strip. He also felt that the numbers for torque were underrated at 600 ft/lbs. At the time he gave me tq numbers that they were running but I don't recall what they were. American powertrain also had options already to strengthen it for bigger numbers if needed (900 ft/lbs)

"TREMEC TKX Extreme Upgrade - American Powertrain" https://americanpowertrain.com/shop/transmissions/tkx-5-speed/tremec-tkx-extreme-upgrade/

https://www.holley.com/blog/post/in...sion_and_how_it_compares_to_the_tko_t56/

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/11/21 05:20 PM

Paul Cangialosi of Gearbox Video (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxP2351joupD-Re3KFpDTNQ) is currently working on finishing up a video on the TKX.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/12/21 01:23 AM

It's when you look at bellhousing options that the swap becomes a little more complexed. With a T56 swap normally the bell is included with the trans when you buy a used trans. When you buy one of the new Magnum T56 you may need and adapter bell to match your engine needs.

When you would do a TKX the bell would also need to match what you are mating it to. But you would find the norm would be for a hydraulic clutch. By the way on a G with long tube headers the hydraulic is really the only thing that fits. The headers and mechanical compete for the same real state.

Also be aware that the mech uses a fork which projects out from the side of the bell, some hydraulics also have an external slave which pushes on the fork. A lot of the T56 use a slave inside the bell which eliminates the header clearance issue. I'm sure today that could be done on an old school bell.

One of the complication to going with a bell that uses a fork is the fork is angled down at a 17 degree angle. to move the end of the fork away from the floor pan. Several SBC cars used a 17 degree bell, G-body mechanical, 3rd Gen F mech and hyd, 85-88 Vette 4+1 used hyd. The 1st and 2nd gen Nova was angled down, forgot the angle, maybe 19. Some have installed a bell were the fork comes straight out it's side, think some tunnel relief was in order.

Go to Mark's site and read up on the old school bell choices, they are still relevant for a TKX.

One thing you find is when you want to go to an aftermarket bell, Quicktime or Lakewood, they are pricey as hell now. My first Lakewood was bought for my 62 Nova SBC in 1970, 100 bucks for that Lakewood scattershield. In the 86 the first bell when the aftermarket T56 was installed was a 3rd/4th Gen G-body stick bell, the 606, think it was 60 bucks used. The new engine got a Lakewood 15015, 1982 F-body mech application, was 400 bucks about 15 years ago. Lakewood and Quicktime are now owned by Holley and their scattershields are over 700 bucks, ouch. And most of the old Lakewood bells are discontinued, mine included.

When you get the current car/engine sorted out and you have time to read go to Mark's site and read everything. Back in the day it was pretty much the only place where pre T56 stick in a G-body info was compiled.
https://www.garage-scene.com/t5-into-ag-body/
Also here is a lot of info.
http://www.montecarloss.com/community/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=466549#Post466549

Make yourself knowledgeable about all the possible choices and then plan the route. It's possible to do a stick swap for reasonable, also possible to spend 10 grand by the time you throw in a rear to handle banging gears at 7 grand.

Don't leave receipts laying around, flowers don't always fix somethings.

Bpb
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/19/21 01:00 AM

Been a while since an update. As far as my electrical issue of dropping below 13v on my a/f gauge put a smaller march pulley on. I have lowered my idle back down and all is well so far.

[Linked Image]

So I have fought the a/f ratio leaning out at idle. With the help of Bob, Cliff, and Kevin i finally got somewhere. The less vacuum the more steady the a/f ratio. I truly believe there is a underlying issue but I can't find it. Ive had the airhorn off numerous times, ive checked fuel pressure, ive check gaskets and torque, I cant find any vacuum leaks, checked float level, no nozzle drip, and throttle blades all the way closed. The cam is not big or radical and its just a 305 making around 350 h.p. As of right now I have .135" idle bypass air, iab down 1/4 turn from the gauge, mixture screws 6 turns out, and dwell between 24-28. I have the t that goes to choke pull off uncapped where the thermac valve was and drilled to .135". Here is a video of a/f and vacuum today at idle. I have to say right now I'm happy with where it is at.

https://youtu.be/sFg15GBGiic

Video of a/f and vacuum cruising between 40-50 on backroads.

https://youtu.be/eiKtI-UGMsA

Merging on to highway from 30 - 65

https://youtu.be/R-xGwLzBZdg

Spark plug from #3

[Linked Image]

Spark plug from #4

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Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/19/21 01:55 AM

If you have a Mityvac you should check to see if the various vacuum diaphragms are holding vacuum. This would include choke pulloff, brake booster, EGR valve, Thermac damper motor, etc. The idle airbleed valve has O rings that can go bad and leak vacuum, another overlooked source of vacuum leaks are the intake valve stem seals. Double check your PCV valve, an incorrect spec one can flow too much and mimic a vacuum leak. I know FRAM PCV valves tend to be incorrect for L69 engines even through they claim they are. You have to look to see what letter is stamped on it, should be an E for L69s.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/19/21 11:09 AM

I have checked all the above atleast 3 times each. Cliff has stated the whole time that I need .080" - .100" idle air bypass drilled on each side. As seen in the videos I feel that I've got my a/f honed in at idle pretty well now using the .135" hole in the t. Bob had used that passage to get idle air bypass on other carbs and gave me the idea. I just feel that I shouldn't need that because others have ran the ccc on bigger, more radical cammed engines and not needed it. So who knows.
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/20/21 02:37 PM

Did you test the HVAC system to see if it holds vacuum? Sometimes the HVAC control valve in the dash can develop vacuum leaks. Other thing I can think of are the idle down tubes in the carb. Sean Mirphy recommends to drill the idle down tubes to .034.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/27/21 04:04 PM

So I've been throwing the idea around about my next move. The 305 is a healthy little motor and im happy with it, it really has exceeded my expectations. While I had planned on upgrading the transmission and rearend the next couple of winters, as it is in cartoons the little devil on my shoulder started trying to persuade me to go ahead with that 383 or 400 build I have in my head.

I have been flip flopping back and forth for a couple weeks. I have broke all three projects down into rough estimates. I would be buying pieces one at a time, easier to keep peace at home. To do the 383 around $6000 to $7000, 400 around $9000 to $11000, and tkx $5500 to $6500. The car at most might be used for a drag /autocross once a year and maybe not even that. Its a weekend car to drive for fun.

I miss having a manual. Don't want one for a daily but it sure is fun when its on a weekend car. I messaged Lance yesterday asking a few questions about his gm shortblock and told him I was swaying back and forth between projects and weighing options. He felt the manual added the most to the personality of his car. I know Bob enjoys his manual. The more I think about it I want to stay on my original course so manual it is.

First up is ordering the actual transmission. Its on backorder now depending on what ratio, Some are 2 to 3 months out. What is opinions on ratio? I plan to do some figuring on rpm's in what gear over the next few days. My rear gear 3.73 and and 99.9% of the time this will be a around town and backroads car with some highway driving.


Wide Ratio - 3.27, 1.98, 1.34, 1.00, 0.72
Close Ratio - 2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, 0.68
Close Ratio - 2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, 0.81
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/27/21 08:31 PM

I've got a calculator that should be helpful to see what each of those sets will do for you as far as MPH, RPM at speed, shift points etc. PM me your email and I can send it to you.

Punching stuff in, assuming you have stock size tires (215/65-15?) and 5500 redline, the biggest difference is obviously the first gear performance on the first set, then the OD difference on each of them.

First gear redline is 35 mph vs 40 for the closer ratio setup (#2 and 3).
0-60 can Juuuust be done with the 3.27 ratio set if you really want the bragging rights on your 0-60 times, OEM's sometimes choose ratios based on that...
100-120 mph is the same for all of them (4th gear), so your RPM's at trap speed in the 1/4 should be about the same.
Average torque at the wheels will be higher with the 3.27 set, but only if you have traction.
RPM at 70 MPH is 2430, 2295, and 2734 for the three gear sets.
RPM at 80 (we drive faster here in Texas...) is 2777, 2625, and 3124.

My analysis is that set #1 would be better if you were to stay with the 305. A little more down low, but I would think you could put most of it to the ground. If you plan for a built 383/400, I don't think you would go wrong with Set #2 or #3 now and it would be a little easier to not vaporize the tires later on. The RPM at 80 would be enough for me to skip Set #3 but that is just my personal opinion.
Other folks have a lot more experience with high HP and stickshifts, but that's my first pass thinking at it.

Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/27/21 10:56 PM

In my T5 experience (2.95 1st gear), the gearing is perfect. I feel that 3.27 would make you hate 1st gear as it would run out too quickly. Mustang T5s had 3.31 first gear and 2.73 rear gears. Mustangs owners with 3.73 gears hate the 3.31 1st gear.

I recommend the 2.87 1st gear with 0.68 overdrive. You will notice a large drop in rpm in 5th gear. If you want a closer gear to 4th, then get the 0.81 OD version.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/28/21 05:28 AM

It looks like you are definitely staying with an SBC at this point and the TKX mated to a Gen 1 would be a good combo, easy install. Doing a good hydraulic clutch setup is not that difficult today with the proper parts.

My choice for a trans would be the 2.87 and .68 5th. With the 3.73 gears that would be 10.7 in 1st gear. Funny but with the 3.27 1st and 3.73 that would be 12.2. My T56 is 2.94 1st and rear gears are 4.11 = 12.2. The reason for the 4.11 was to increase rpm through the traps at the 1/4 mile. Something not really necessary anymore. But I can tell you with that much multiplication in 1st gear it makes driving the car much easier, much easier also on the clutch. Is 12.2 to much, in my opinion on a street car no, especially if the engine is temperamental.
But I would do the 2.87 because the 1st to 2nd rpm drop is also better, only 35 % while the 3.27 box is 39.5 %. Being the TKX is a bang the gears trans the engine will like it better, pull better.

As far as the 5th gear I would go with the .68 because you need more OD for cruising. On even a 6 speed you rarely ever are doing a hard pull in 5th or 6th gear. 4th will run you out to 115 mph by itself at 5600 rpm. That .68 is needed for those runs down the 4 lane at 70. My T56 has a .80 5th and .62 6th gear. What i find is downshifting from 6th to 5th with those ratios a huge plus.While downshifting the increase in rpm from 6th to 5th is 28%, from 5th to 4th is 25% rpm increase. The early ZO6 Corvette and some Shelby GT500 used the same 1st to 6th ratios as my trans.
Trans ratio from 1st to 4th is most important for a street car, the OD 5th is the cruise gear in a 5 spd.
The 200R is .67 in OD with the converter locked up you see about a 33% in rpm drop. This would mimic the TKX .68 5th OD.

But I would bet the 2.87/.68 trans is the one most commonly bought, and probably backordered.

They should have made the TKX years ago, a lot of the cars that got swapped to a T56 would have gone the TKX route when they pulled the Muncie or T10 out of their classic. The one thing I miss about a T56 is it's not a bang the gears trans like the old 4 spds. The TKX is billed as the trans that you can bang gears with again. Haven't seen any locally yet, can't wait to get my hand on that shifter to see if it's true.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/30/21 06:35 AM

Some thoughts on going old school stick setup.
The bellhousing is the key to the swap. Because you are running a long tube header it most likely will not work with mechanical linkage. So the bell needs to be a hydraulic bell with the slave external, or, I believe it may be possible to do internal with some of these new slaves available today.
The TKX is replacement for old school 4 spds that Chevy used in cars. The trans to bell bolt pattern, 4 bolts, has been the same for all the trans and decades, the TKX mimics that. The front bearing retainer on the trans locates in the center hole of the bell. The length of the input shaft from the face of the trans to the tip is specific. A stock alum stick bell depth in a Chevy is 6.3" if I remember correctly.
The TKX is designed to bolt right into a stock bell.

Not sure what is available for a new bolt in, old school, hydraulic bell. You need to be careful when looking at "stock like" replacement cast alum bells. There were numerous OEM mechanical offered through the years, but hydraulic only a few and with external slaves, 3rd gen F and 85-88 Vette. From what I've seen on the aftermarket alum they are mechanical bells.

By the way I have the 85-88 Vette hydraulic bell, fork and slave sitting in a box at the shop. And also a 168 alum bell in great shape, but it's mech. Bought both just to look at them. By the way both need to part the shop.

Lakewood and Quicktime bells are salty to say the least. I run a Lakewood 15015, which is no longer produced, and SFI flywheel and clutch. I've seen the carnage from those rotating parts coming apart. This is the Quicktime bell.
https://www.holley.com/products/drivetrain/bellhousings/chevrolet/parts/RM-6022
And I guess this is a hyd throwout bearing that could be used with that bell and the TKX.
And this is the Lakewood 3rd Gen bell. Kinda ugly slave hanging off the bell, possible header clearance problem.
https://www.holley.com/products/drivetrain/bellhousings/chevrolet/parts/15020

Powertrain's alum bell for your swap. not sure how hyd works on that bell.
https://americanpowertrain.com/shop...mall-block-big-block-tkx-gm-munice-t-10/

Flywheel size, 153 or 168, you hear talked about. 153 is the simple swap size to use, no need for 168, plenty of good clutches available for a 153.
Also the flywheel you buy for the 305 will not work on the new engine, one piece seal-two piece seal, and also balance, external-internal. So choose a 305 flywheel accordingly. The 305 stick flywheel comes from an F-body with T5. I traded my local Chevy dealership owner my old exhaust manifolds for that flywheel. Good deal for me, 21 years ago. New flywheel should be a 153 billet, not to heavy, not to light, low 20s. Mcleod will make you what ever weight you want, mine started out as 20 lb. Been cut a couple times now.

Now running a Mcleod RST on a 153. First clutch behind the 305 was a Centerforce.
https://www.centerforce.com/product/dual-friction-df161911-0002?gfid=p60379-c322117
Loved the clutch, several locals also have that same clutch and love it, my wife could drive the car. Only one application for that clutch, 85-88 Vette with the 4+1 trans. It's an usually size, 10 3/4", bolted to a 153 flywheel. It's disc surface area is equal to an 11" clutch and significantly more area than the usual 10 1/2". AND bolts to a 153. By the way it easier to get a 153 flywheel for a 305, not sure a 168 is available. Several conversation with Centerforce tech led me to that 161911.
The clutch was reinstalled behind the 427 and ran it until I thought the answer to quicker 60' times was bias ply slicks. Replaced that Centerforce clutch with an ON-OFF switch. Another 10 3/4", rated 700, from Science Friction, now American Powertrain. I hated it from day one and it didn't get any better until i threw it out. The disc was their Ceramix, WAY to aggressive for me, chatter in reverse. It did work well with the slicks. The disc was junk, in 4K miles, worn, gone when i pulled it.

Always wanted a twin disc clutch and the RST went in 5/19, 4K miles ago. Love it, easy to drive, smooth engagement, no noise/quiet, a little more pedal pressure than the Centerforce but tolerable. It has two organic disc which are less aggressive, and should not be used with slicks even at a 700 rating. The slicks are heading to the recycle bin. A good clutch bought up front can be cared over to the next build.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-6913-07

Don't jump into anything before the homework is done.
Rainy, cold, raw couple days here. To much time on the computer.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/30/21 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
And also a 168 alum bell in great shape, but it's mech. Bought both just to look at them. By the way both need to part the shop.


Bob, if the large bellhousing is a 697 with lowered ball stud, I can put in touch with someone who recently contacted me looking for one.

Marc
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/30/21 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Some thoughts on going old school stick setup.
The bellhousing is the key to the swap. Because you are running a long tube header it most likely will not work with mechanical linkage.
There are few long tube headers that will work with mechanical clutch linkage, but it is rare. The specs on the headers should state whether or not mechanical clutch linkage fits without modification. My Hedman long tube headers were designed to fit with mechanical clutch linkage.

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
So the bell needs to be a hydraulic bell with the slave external, or, I believe it may be possible to do internal with some of these new slaves available today.
The internal slaves are part of the release bearing and will work with any bellhousing, but unfortunately, the transmission must be removed to replace the slave.
If you look at one of my web pages, there are some cars with long tube headers and external slave cylinders.
https://garage-scene.com/manual-trans-monte/

With external slave cylinders, you need to buy a custom clutch pedal (https://sickspeedmonte.com/PedalFAQ.htm) to mate to the 3rd/4th gen F body master cylinder. I don't know what master cylinder and pedal geometry works with the internal slave cylinders, so that would be a conversation to have with the slave cylinder manufacturer. You want to be sure the master cylinder has the proper capacity and the pedal has the proper throw, to ensure the slave is pushed far enough and not too far.

The 4th gen F body master cylinder comes with a braided line to the slave, while the 3rd gen does not and can easily burn on exhaust. Additionally, the F body master assemblies include a restriction that may designed be to prevent rapid release of the clutch pedal (and consequently rapid release of the clutch). The restriction must be removed or you will be forced to shift slowly...no speed shifting.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/30/21 03:26 PM

This is the internal slave for old school bells I saw. Have no idea how well it performs.
https://www.holley.com/products/drivetrain/clutches/throwout_bearings/parts/82-100

Mark the bell is a 858403. Thinking about it now it's probably a 10 1/2" bell used in the old classic cars.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/30/21 03:52 PM

Found here a little more info/descriptions on Chevy bells.
https://www.4speedconversions.com/867.html
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/30/21 04:03 PM

A couple of kits I've looked had for the hydraulic conversion:

"G-Body SixSpeedMonte/HYDRAMAX System for TKO 5-speed and Muncie - American Powertrain" https://americanpowertrain.com/shop...ramax-system-for-tko-5-speed-and-muncie/

"Hydraulics Kit - Product Spotlight" https://shiftsst.com/blog/post/hydraulics-kit.html

The first setup is through american powertrain using the sickspeed monte pedals its $750 the second is through silver sport. Its $800 once thier pedal setup is added.

Probably order just the transmission next week and go from there. All the other parts ive looked at for the most part are in stock. Silver sport said the transmission would be in by end of July. After I order the transmission it will be one piece at a time slowly building up parts til winter.

All suggestions and comments are greatly appreciated. As with my engine I have lots to learn on a manual swap as far as all the pieces go. Im glad I have this forum. After all valued input from here and looking at 2 different spreadsheets from Shawn and Kevin I think the 2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1.00, 0.68 ratio would be the best and is what I plan to order.

Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/31/21 12:47 AM

Mark the above hydraulic kits from American powertrain and sst will fit a 867 or 621 bellhousing?

Only difference i see is the fork hole and ball stud mount being at 3 o'clock on 621 and 4 o'clock on the 867. Starter side is a little different but looks like the same starter part number for my car and a 84-88 corvette. I assume they are same depth? I have a lot to learn. Lol.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I wouldn't mind running the external slave cylinder with the fork like the 867 but I would need to figure out which mc would work with it and the sickspeedmonte kit. I couldn't find much info right off the bat but I will read some more and see what I can find. Im think my longtubes would clear the external slave cylinder but not sure just something I would have to try. Not the best pictures but its all I have of that area.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Lots of figuring to do. Luckily I have plenty of time.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 05/31/21 01:21 AM

Brent, the 621 bellhousing (for a 168-tooth flywheel) and the 867 bellhousing (for a 153-tooth flywheel) use a different starter nose. The starter position is further outboard with the 621 bellhousing. They are both the same depth.

You should currently have a 153-tooth flywheel and related starter (1 long bolt and 1 short bolt; holes are inline). The 168-tooth starters have 2 long bolts and the holes are staggered.

Some blocks are drilled with 3 holes, to accept either starter, some blocks are only drilled for 1 of the starters.

The 867 bellhousing uses a long fork ball stud when using the hydraulic linkage and Corvette pressure plate, or else the release bearing would never make contact with the pressure plate. You would use the shorter fork ball stud if using the 867 with mechanical linkage and a "normal/typical" pressure plate.

I can't tell from the pictures whether or not the external slave would fit. If you can't find someone who already did so with the same headers you have, you would need to install the assembly and see how it fits, or at least install the bellhousing and measure how much room you have left.

Once you get all the parts, the swap can be done in 2 long days. I did it in my driveway in 1992.

Also, consider whether you want to also install a custom steering column with a key release lever.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/01/21 06:30 AM

Brent you being handy putting together a hydraulic package for a reasonable price is doable. When i start adding up the cost of a stockish alum bell, throwout/slave, master and it's mounting, a pedal, it's staggering for me and i think Mark, it's over a grand. We did ours for Much less.

From what i see any bell will work with those internal slaves. They all just locate on the bearing retainer, nothing else matters along as the depth of the bell is 6.25" ish. The problem i see with the internal is set up is crucial to keeping the throwout bearing to clutch fingers clearance optimized thru the life of the clutch. As the disc wears the finger tips move rearward, reduces the clearance. There are a few videos from the venders on how to set them up.
You don't have the luxury with a hydraulic clutch to adj that freeplay with out pulling the trans and changing shims. On a mechanical linkage you just adjust the free play at the top of the pedal via an adjustable link age rod. The engagement point of the clutch is important for a good feel. A hyd will change as the disc wears.

Something just thought of. To install one of those internal slaves it appears you will need to bolt the trans to the bell, install slave on the bearing retainer and then install the bell/trans assemble to the back of the engine. Hmmmm. Never did that before. The only other way is to stick you hand through the old fork hole and fish it into place while someone is pushing the 100lb trans into place.

Was looking for specs on the 85-88 Vette slave and master. A replacement slave is easy to come by and it appears the master is too. I couldn't find the specs for the bore of either, yet.

If your car has cruise the harness and vac hose pass through the firewall where the new master is located. Original the hole in the firewall was there for the clutch linkage to pass through the wall on the early stick G-body. It was repurposed when the stick G's were no longer being made, 82 I believe for the cruise wire and vac. In the center of the firewall are three dimples in the steel that all G's got from day one. The tach wire is run through one. If you look the dimples form a triangle pattern. The cruise when rarely optioned on an early G came through a hole drilled at one of those dimples. Because I use the clutch rod hole in the firewall I relocated the cruise to the center of the firewall location. The third hole/dimple is where you will bring the reverse light wiring in to the car. Same place the stick G's brought it in.

I strongly suggest you do what necessary to maintain the cruise control. Cruise on a stick car is sweet, much better than an automatic. Anytime I'm going a distance at 70 mph you lean back in the seat and point and shoot. There is zero slippage with a stick. I do have a switch on the brake pedal to disengage the cruise. I absolutely have a switch on the clutch pedal to disengage the cruise.

Neutral safety switch I consider a must have with a stick. Clutch pedal need to be pushed to the floor to start. The Gbody stick neutral safety switch is a fairly simple install, but have been gone from circulation for years. I have a couple in stock. Mine has been in for 20 years now, same switch.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/01/21 11:34 AM

Brent, all of the information that Bob and I have mentioned is discussed on my website:
https://garage-scene.com/t5-into-ag-body/

The firewall and cruise control topic is discussed in the Wiring chapter.

I am a fan of the mechanical linkage option. If you decide to try that route, you may (or may not) have to modify your driver's side header. I don't recommend modifying the linkage. Alternatively, you could get a different set of headers.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/01/21 02:26 PM

Best I can find over the last few days of research is the corvette master cylinder bore size is .688" and stroke is 1.53". Not sure how reliable that number is but several were in agreement on a forum called digital corvette. Couldn't find any numbers on slave cylinder but several replacements are a 1.00" bore.

I think a good setup that might work would be:

-Tkx transmission
-84-88 corvette bellhousing
-New slave cylinder $30 if needed
-Throwout bearing $25
-Sickspeedmonte pedal kit for universal master cylinder $329
https://protouringproducts.com/product/ssm-clutch-pedal-kit-designed-for-universal-master-cylinders/
-Tilton 75 series universal master cylinder bore is .750 $93
https://protouringproducts.com/prod...rsal-master-cylinder-bore-0-750-19-1-mm/
Not sure what issues if any i would have between the .688" and the .750" bore size difference. The Tilton has a threaded adjustable pushrod.
- A hose from master cylinder to slave cylinder.

Just throwing all this out here, nothing has been purchased except for the transmission. I went with the 2.87/.68. Surprisingly I was sent an email from summit saying it will be shipped today and they are in stock. We shall see.

My headers actually set pretty far out from the transmission so I believe I would be ok running the 84-88 bell with the external slave. If I have interference I will need to back up and punt. Either go the internal route or look into other header options and at that time might even think about using the mechanical linkage. It seems that going the mechanical linkage these days isn't very cheap either but still an option.

The cruise control was the only thing that did not work on the car when purchased. While building the engine over the winter I removed the cruise control and all the pieces and put it in a box. Never been a big cruise control person but I would like to leave the option open to put it back in the future.

Definitely putting in a neutral safety switch. Hadn't even thought of a key release lever.

Mark, over the last few days I've been going through your site, very informative, lots of good details.

All opinions and comments are greatly appreciated.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/01/21 02:48 PM

After looking farther into the Tilton 75 universal it has several bore size options but the stroke is only 1.1"

https://tiltonracing.com/product/75-series-master-cylinder-kits/
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/01/21 09:59 PM

I am glad you like my website.

Brent, I have lots of mechanical linkage parts and bellhousings. Bob already mentioned he has the Corvette bellhousing, so he should get first choice.

I can make you a custom steering column. If you decide that is an option, hit me up at that time.

It has been nearly 40 years since I studied fluids, though I got an A in college in Fluids. If you know the bore and stroke of the Corvette master cylinder and the bore of the Corvette slave cylinder, you should be able to compute the stroke of the slave. The same volume of fluid will move in both master and slave. Knowing the required stroke, you can determine whether a different combination will work (or not).
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/02/21 04:23 AM

Even though Mark and I are mechanical linkage guys i think Brent's choice needs to be hydraulic due to the availability of better hydraulic setups available today. And also the choice in headers that work with a Zbar are but a few in a true performance header.

Way back, about twenty years ago I had the privilege to drive a 1/2 dozen Gs converted to stick. My car was already swapped at the time and the feel, pedal effort and engagement on those hydraulics just sucked compared to the mechanical in my car. As i do with most car projects I'm not afraid to get on the phone and pick the brains of the venders selling parts. It was the tech at Centerforce that explained several difference between types of linkage and pressure plates. First he said the reason all the new cars having hydraulics is there is just no room to do the mechanical linkage, engine bays are confining. Also he noted commonly a hydraulic pressure plate will have less static pressure because of the hydraulics have less advantage than a mechanical. So hydraulics in order to keep the pedal pressure down, maintain pedal stroke length, the pressure plate static is lower.
Back in those day that was true, today not so much a big deal as disc are more aggressive, pressure plates on the latest and greatest modern cars with a single disc could be 12" and now with the market flooded with twin disc clutches with less static pressure you can get a hydraulic to perform well.

Last time i ran into Bernie was at Cecil County Raceway and he had his car with him. I did jump in his car and get a feel for his clutch pedal, best hydraulic G pedal I've ever pushed a left foot on. Didn't drive the car to see how it did on engagement but several on this forum have raved about how good his design is.
Don't know if the master bracket that attaches to the lower brake booster bolts is his design but that bracket would/could/should fix the problem of mounting the master to the firewall. Other mounting to the flimsy sheetmetal of the firewall made a strong attachment a challenge.

When you start to look at the master and slave there is lots to making a system work properly. The length of the pedal stroke, the pedal pressure necessary to push the pedal down, the length of the stroke of the throwout bearing. I mention throwout bearing stroke because it is the most important part of the formula. Different clutches require different clearances between the disc and flywheel when the clutch is disengaged. Typically for a diaphragm it should have .030" clearance to be fully disengaged. Most clutches commonly used are diaphragm. With less clearance the more heat, creeping when in gear and stopped, grinding gears when shifting possible. When you exceed the .030" the throwout bearing is pushing the fingers of the clutch over center which can damage the belleville in the pressure plate over time.
I drilled a hole in the bottom of my Lakewood, insert a 12" long .030" feeler gauge in and set clearance that way. Even the old 606 bell i used for years had a hole drilled for that check.
The mechanical linkage was removed from an 82 El Camino for 15 buck if i remember correctly. But several mods were made to the ratios of the parts to make the pedal travel, throwout bearing travel and pedal effort acceptable. All the parts from the clutch pedal pad to the throwout bearing have been touched and altered.

From what I've read Bernie's pedal has done all that work and you only need to match a master with a slave.
Whether that original Vette master-slave was a good combo I don't know. That 10 3/4" Centerforce DF 161911 was what that Vette bell was designed for.

Brent I'll send you some picks that may help you with the master install, backup lights, cruise wire/vac. Also the speedo gear needs to be addressed down the road. I'm thinking the new trans is using the T5 speedo housing and only the driven gear needs to be changed for the 3.73 rear gears.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/02/21 11:12 AM

Brent, if you still have 26-inch tall tires and 3.73 gears, you want a speedo gear ratio of 3:1 (e.g, 7 teeth drive and 21 teeth driven). Do you know what drive gear the transmission comes with? Was there a choice?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/02/21 03:57 PM

After doing some research and cross referencing some numbers it looks like my drive gear part #2601215 is a 7 tooth yellow.

"3550 TKO 500 600 Speedometer Drive Gear 7 tooth" https://m.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/7165242/7392853.htm

There was no choice that I know of, it looks like all three of the gm tkx transmissions come with the tremec #2601215.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/02/21 04:20 PM

That's perfect! No need for any special ratio adapters.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/03/21 04:50 AM

The 21 tooth should be the one for 3.73, #3987921 RED if they use the T5 speedo adapter. Would think the install instructions for the TKX would have all the mechanical speedo info included.

While looking through the parts pdf of the TKX I see they show a neutral safety switch in the tailhousing. That may simplify the install of that necessary safety item.
Most neutral safety switches are located on the clutch pedal in the old days. The clutch would need to be held to the floor to crank the engine.
https://www.tremec.com/anexos/TKX%20Parts%20Manual_04.05.2021.pdf

I can remember when UPS dropped my new T56 at the house front door, I wasn't home. Well actually my wife had the driver slide it in the front door. Somehow she
managed to get it in far enough so the door closed. I got hell when I got home. Twenty years later and i still get hell from her because of that trans, she hate all the shifting when riding shotgun.
Bob
Posted By: Z65_Paul

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/03/21 03:54 PM

Brent,
I'm getting a bunch of email bounces from your gmail account indicating it is "over quota". The bounce says to direct you to the following web page:
https://support.google.com/mail/ans...d=637583323823930054-2766765455&rd=2
Please take care of it.

Thanks
PaulC
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/03/21 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Z65_Paul
Brent,
I'm getting a bunch of email bounces from your gmail account indicating it is "over quota". The bounce says to direct you to the following web page:
https://support.google.com/mail/ans...d=637583323823930054-2766765455&rd=2
Please take care of it.

Thanks
PaulC


Sorry about that Paul. I think I got it taken care of. Just let me know if if I didnt.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/03/21 10:25 PM

I was able to be home when the ups man showed up so that was good. My wife knows I ordered it but luckily hasn't ask many questions about it. Im just glad our plan to help idle speed is coming to together, lol.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/03/21 11:47 PM

Very Nice!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/04/21 03:49 AM

Well ain't that a pretty sight!
You're not in the MMC club yet but well on your way.
Haven't seen a weight on that trans anywhere but it looks like a 100 pounder.

Post a pic of the driver's side tailhousing.

Soon I'll dig through my parts, I think I still have a reverse light plug/harness to mate it to the Monte.

I may have a red speedo gear laying around also.

Lance's old carb is boxed and soon to ship.

I'd be so hyper if that was sitting in my shop I'd be measuring the length of the 200R and the TKX to see if I really had to cut the driveshaft. If the driveshaft would work I'd split the drivetrain project into to separate stages. Get the trans installed first and install all good parts for the long run. You could beat on the 305/TKX for a while until you are ready to do the rear end/driveshaft. That second part of the driveline project also get expensive fast.
When I did the new T56, 8 1/2 rear build/install, Denny's shaft there are a bunch of parts that add up quickly.

For me the car downtime is always an essential part of a project, minimum! My drivetrain swap took 30 days, most where waiting for the Denny's shaft. You just went through that problem with the engine refresh.

Being I like spending other people's money for a rear my first choice would be the G-body S60 from Strange. Only downside i see with that rear is the taller UCA mount location from stock. That is more about an instant center relocation for drag racing. I'd have to really investigate what they are doing there. the reason i say S60 is you could put any reasonably excessive amount of power through it and not worry, almost indestructible.
The Moser 12 bolt next choice.
A 9", just goes against my grain in a Chevy. Maybe to old but you don't put a Ford flathead in a 30's Chevy Street rod. Funny, a guy i know built a 65 Cobra replica, put a Chevy 350 and TH350 in it. I was stunned, that was a sin.
But a built 9" is a good rear, will handle anything you can throw at it.

Forget the 8 1/2" rear, way to scare anymore, if you find one you end up throwing dollars at it so you can beat on it.. Mine has been through two build now with 0 costs for labor and I have way more than an S60 cost in it.

I'll send you some pics.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/04/21 12:19 PM

That is good advice to take on the swap in stages. I installed the pedals and steering column a few months before I got to the transmission swap, to reduce the amount of downtime, later. It saved me some time during the swap as I was able to do the swap in a weekend on my back in the driveway.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/04/21 03:13 PM

As soon as I opened it I thew it on a scale, i got 96 lbs.

Here is picture of driver side tailshaft

[Linked Image]


It looks like this is what is needed for my speedo but not sure. I haven't dug in too deep.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tremec-TKO...544663350?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

I was super excited to get the trans out of box yesterday but that was about it. Had a power feed on a high bay 30 ton crane go to ground. On it up in the building steel for 7.5 hours, not fun.

I know in the end its not the smartest choice but if my driveshaft doesn't fit I will probably throw the $250 down at the local driveline shop for a steel one and roll with it for a little while. I dont see budgeting any more for my car projects after this till next winter if that. Get the trans in with a non ccc, steel driveshaft and use all good parts im looking at probably another realistic $2500. No other projects are going to be happening for a long while.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 01:45 AM

If the measurements i found are correct the bellhousing should be around 6.3 and the tkx is 23.75. The 2004r is 27.75".
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 01:00 PM

Brent, it is good that the TKX is longer than the TH200-4R as that means you can have your existing driveshaft shortened (+balance + new joints) rather than buy a new one. It would have been better if the length was the the same as the TH200-4R.

I wish I knew where to find reliable transmission dimensions. The TH350, TH200-4R, Saginaw, Muncie,and T10/Super T10 use the same driveshaft, but different yokes. The published dimensions vary and don't necessarily reflect this equality. They claim to be measuring case length, but the stickout of the mainshaft also plays a role and may vary among transmission models.

The GM T5 (with bellhousing) is the same length as the TH700-R4, and is exactly 3 inches longer than the TH200-4R, but the published dimensions don't always agree.

I think Tremec needs to do a better job publishing the external dimensions of the TKX; they have some dimensions missing from their images.

Have you tried to measure the dimension from the front face to the end of the tailshaft?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 04:03 PM

Interesting... tremec says the measurement is 23 3/4" in the picture below I measure 24 1/8". From the face to the the end of the input shaft I get 6 9/16" . From tailshaft to end of rubber output seal its 5/8"

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 04:28 PM


🤯

Don't forget to measure the distance between the front face and the end of the tailshaft. You can compare to what you measure on the TH200-4R (after adding the bellhousing depth).

I am glad you validated my concern about incorrect published dimensions.

Are you going to contact Tremec and tell them that their published dimensions are wrong?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 04:58 PM

I'm confused. Thats what I thought I was measuring in the picture above. Im considering the face to be what the bellhousing mounts flat against where the red level is on the left and the tailshaft to be the flat where I have the metal square at on the right that measurement is 24 1/8". I might have my terminology wrong. Yes I will shoot them an email.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 05:39 PM

Sorry for the confusion. I am suggesting to place the straight edge on the end of the output shaft and measure to the front face. The output shaft sticks out a short distance from the back of the transmission.

Looking back at your first picture, it may be hiding in the seal.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 05:54 PM

1/4", so face to end of tailshaft is 24 3/8".

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/05/21 06:10 PM

Let me see if I can measure a Saginaw for comparison, as it would be comparable to your TH200-4R. Then you can think about what driveshaft length you need.

I don't have any more T10s to measure.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/06/21 12:55 AM

As promised, I measured a Saginaw that should be comparable to your TH200-4R.

From front face to rear seal face: 21.25 inches
From front face to end of output shaft: 22 inches
From front face to end of input shaft: 6-11/16 inches (6.6875 inches)

I also measured a GM belhousing for good measure: a little shy of 6-5/16 inches (6.3125 inches) A dial caliper may have provide a more accurate dimension.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/06/21 01:17 AM

Thank you for the measurements! Let me know if im misunderstanding something but from face of bellhousing to end of tailshaft the rough measurements are:

Tkx: 30 11/16"
Saginaw: 28 5/16"
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/06/21 01:38 AM

Correct. The difference is 2-3/8 inches.

When you measured 24-1/8, I think your tape measure was not horizontal/parallel to the mainshaft. When I measured, I kept he tape horizontal. If you were to remeasure, you should arrive at a smaller measurement.

The difference of the face-to-face measurements (using the published measurement) is 2-1/2 inches.
the difference of the face-to-face measurements (using your measurement) is 2-7/8 inches.

I would expect you could cut your driveshaft 2.5 inches to fit the new transmission.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/06/21 10:57 PM

I've had discussions with both American powertrain who is a little over and hour away and silver sport who is 15 minutes away. Ive done quite a bit of research and it seems like Ap has a good hydraulic setup but if something goes wrong their customer service is not the best. If you research silver sport everyone is really happy with their setup and they have great customer service.

I'm about 98% sure I want to go with the "hydraulic throwout bearing" setup. After researching the 84-88 aftermarket slave and master cylinder it seems hard to find quality replacements and im not sure but I think it might be a challenge to find the proper mc to work with the ssm pedal kit and bracket. Im happy with my exhaust and how it is so i don't want to go the mechanical route.

I know ap uses the ssm bracket, not sure if sst uses the ssm bracket if it is not its an exact copy. I was under the impression that sst only sales kits but they sale individual components. I ask what clutch and flywheel they recommended and after cross referencing its mcleod. One thing I found interesting is the gentleman I spoke with said they recommend a 403 bellhousing for thier setup when using a 153 tooth flywheel and thier hydraulic setup. I will ask them but does anyone know why they would suggest the 403?
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/07/21 12:18 AM

The 403 bellhousing is the perfect generic option for use with an internal slave cylinder. You only needed the Corvette bellhousing if you were going to use the external slave or mechanical linkage.

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/07/21 05:36 AM

Not sure why the 403 would be the best choice.
If you are going to install an inspection cover on the front of the bellhousing you made need to make one. All those old bells are designed for a two piece rear seal engine. I had to modify a two piece cover to work with the original 305.

Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/07/21 11:10 AM

Good point. I did not consider the inspection cover when I made my comment. My comment was only related to the location of the fork opening, which is irrelevant when using the internal slave cylinder.

I agree that the only 1-piece rear main seal inspection cover options are for the 1986-1988 Corvette and 1986-1992 F body bellhousings. In my case, I drilled new holes in a new 1986-1992 F body inspection cover to fit my 1978-1981 606 bellhousing.

Can the 1-piece seal Corvette and F body inspection covers be found anymore?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/07/21 12:20 PM

I'm not sure why he said that either. Maybe its just what they recommend the 621 and the 403. Looking at 4speedconversions.com it looks like most 153 tooth bells are the same except for fork opening. I was just making sure I wasn't overlooking something. Bob, definitely going to install a inspection cover.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/07/21 10:51 PM

I think I have an inspection cover sitting on the shelf, not sure if it's a one or a two.
And that nice 403 I'll have to go up on the mezz and bring it down to the bench.

Back in the day the 153 bells for two piece were everywhere to be found. At the drags scattershields were needed, bells were at the swap meet at the track in droves.

Even the 606 were not that hard to find even being rare.

Brent, we'll keep your brain buzzing with the little things you need to know.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/07/21 11:04 PM

Well, I went by silver sport transmission today and I must say that its an impressive operation. I didnt realize how big of a place it is and how many people work there. If I had to guess maybe 30-35 people. Gene the salesman who I have been dealing with took me from the office to the back part which is all their stock and the shop where all kinds of installs were going in classics. Quite a few cubicles with people on the phone doing tech support. I looked through all their options and what all they have and got to see all the different stuff and get my hands on it. Also had a shop el Camino there.

This is what all I ordered. I will pick it up tomorrow and they are going to install the mounting retainer on my transmission for the csc (concentric slave cylinder) while I'm there. Not sure who makes it but the pedal kit and firewall mount are dead on copies of the ssm pedal.

- 31 spline slip yoke
- trans rubber mount
- gm speedometer cable
- speedometer gear
- trans backup light connector pigtail for trans side
- needle pilot bearing
- trans to bellhousing hardware
- speedo connection hardware: clip, bolt, lock washer, o ring
- shift lever hardware pack
- isolator to to trans hardware
- g body install pack
- mcleod billet steel flywheel 153 tooth
- flywheel bolt set
- mcleod clutch and pressure plate
- pressure plate bolt kit
- hydraulic clutch actuator system
- pedal connection and all hardware
- firewall mount for mc
- fluid reservoir and supply hose
- braided steel pressure line
- willwood master cylinder
- concentric slave cylinder
- csc retainer
- g body pedal conversion kit
- shifter boot for sheetmetal tunnel for dust and heat
- break in oil for tkx
- wilwood exp 600 high temp hydraulic fluid

A little over $1500 for the above. Right now I'm a little over $4500. My budget was $5000 for this transmission swap, going to be close. I think anyway I sliced it was going to be around the same price. All the pieces above that I priced at other places including summit were same price. For me it was good to have a one stop shop.


Things I still need to acquire:

- I didnt care for any of the leather shifter boot, shifter handle or shifter ball they had. I want it to look 1980's gm like factory. Ive looked at ideas on Mark's site and I like the c5 leather boot and plastic retainer like Bob used. When you register your trans with tremec they send you a 5 speed black ball. I will need to study more on it.

- bellhousing
- inspection plate
- rubber fork opening grommet
- modify driveshaft
- modify my 200-4r g-force crossmember

If any one can think of anything else let me know.








Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/07/21 11:53 PM

Bob, it looks like me and you were typing at about the same time. Just let me know what you come up with bellhousing and inspection plate wise. I appreciate all the knowledge and help from both of you.

Mark, from my reasearch im pretty sure you can get repop inspection covers for vette and f body.

It seems that a lot of the 153 bellhousings have been scraped and not as plentiful these days. Probably a lot gone to cash for clunkers.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 12:34 AM

Brent, there is no going back now!

What is "g body install pack"?

What is a 153 bellhousing? It isn't a number I recognize.

I have updated my Part Numbers page to reflect the Y body dust shield part numbers. This page is in part of my website that I haven't released yet since I am rewriting the whole site.
https://garage-scene.com/wp/t5-install-part-numbers/
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 01:04 AM

Definitely no turning back. Not sure what a g body install pack is, it's on the invoice with a price of $0.00. I was just going down the list typing on here and really didn't pay any attention to it until now. I'll know tomorrow. Once again me not being familiar with the manual stuff I was meaning the bellhousings for 153 tooth flywheel. Im pretty excited about this, it will probably still take me a little while but having the stuff here helps.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 01:28 AM

I have a lot of bellhousings that are specific to the G body mechanical linkage options. Bob has a few. Ebay has lots.

You don't need any of the unique ones that I have. Searching eBay, the cheapest Chevrolet one is $110, but it needs a thorough cleaning. It is not clear from the pictures what the condition of the threaded holes are, so better pictures would need to be requested. (Note that you can't use a 3788421, since the hole in the center is too small; you can't use the truck bellhousings because the hole is too large). Do you want a scatter shield? or an OEM bellhousing?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 07:37 AM

Scattershields are ridiculously priced now, in the door for less than 700, not. And they are only good for a few years and need re-certified. And if you modify it at all they will not recert. Not that you need an SFI for racing, just an insurance policy for the street. If you have an expensive block/ shortblock the block saver plates is another piece of insurance. But it's I think .200" steel and will add that to the depth of the bell. This moves the input shaft's tip journal .200" out of the pilot bushing.
Having both the Lakewood scattershield and plate a special shouldered bushing goes in to increase shaft to bushing contact.
Have ran roller, went to bronze the second time and now the shoulder bronze. Just like brake pads these new clutch linings dust, bushing hangs out in the clutch disc area. I felt try to max journal load area, and not rely on the needle bearing with only 50% insertion.

https://www.holley.com/brands/lakewood/products/drivetrain/bellhousings/chevrolet/
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 10:04 AM

Mark, I believe Bob has a extra 403, plan to get it if he doesn't need it . Also a guy locally has a 383 and 403. Not cheap but cheaper than ebay. Im fine with a oem bell and don't see the need for a scattersheild.

Im really excited about the manual. Its been too long since I've driven one and miss it. I really enjoy my monte and think this will add to the enjoyment.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 11:00 AM

It is good you found a local bellhousing source. The 383 and 403 are basically the same. Get whichever one is in better shape and fits your budget.

I haven't looked at eBay bellhousing prices in a few years. They are currently out-of-line too high. I was shocked.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 12:33 PM

I can already see that the hardest thing to decide on is how to do the boot, shifter handle, and knob.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 01:45 PM

Agreed; that is a personal preference.

I have been debating on removing the console and just using a floor boot.

The Oldsmobile console has a lower profile.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 02:52 PM

I like how Bob did the c5 shifter boot. Actually I really like it. I like the height of both your shifters and it being a straight rod. Bobs shifter knob is six speed. At this point I would probably go with the c5 shifter boot and plastic retainer, I like the clean look how it snaps in. I would like just a black round shifter handle with a black ball on top. How high is your shifter knobs from the console too the top? I'm on vacation this week, wife has too work and its raining so I've been combing the internet for 2 days now.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 03:57 PM

Brent I'll send you more pics.

The shifter is a Pro 5.0 shifter and i made the handle for it to fit the thread pitch and keyway to lock the knob in place from turning. All one off stuff.

Reusing the console top cover wasn't a problem due the placement of the shifter through the cover on my particular T56 install. The location of the shifter varies greatly depending on trans.

There is the lower boot that seals the shifter to the sheetmetal opening, it's the 1993-2002 F body lower shifter boot GM 10267518 which may not be a available anymore. It was great quality, a steel insert in in perimeter that could be molded to the opening in the tunnel. have reused it several times. You just need to applied a bead or RTV to insure water, dust and stink doesn't pass the seal. Hawk Perf still shows they sell a repop.
https://www.hawksmotorsports.com/93...eed-lower-shifter-boot-new-reproduction/

When you remove the 200R shifter you loose the front supports for the console. The console at the front is bolted to the shifter.
An alum plate was grafted onto the front of the console, 1/8x1 steel "legs" attach to that plate, threaded rivet nuts into the tunnel to secure the console.
In the back of the console, inside the compartment are the two rear bolts, they are in slots so the console does allow a little forward/rearward adjustment to help with shifter positioning. The auto shifter cable passes through the tunnel, a round blockoff plate, sealer, need to be installed.

just more tidbits.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/08/21 05:45 PM

Definitely need pictures when you get time. So I assume that your shifter is using this handle?

https://www.mcssl.com/store/pro50performance/catalog/product/35dca2373a6c4997a8f5c97989f67ed6
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/09/21 12:04 AM

This is the shifter handle that came with my Pro5.0. 20 years ago you didn't have all the aftermarket shifter choices for the transmissions using rails, T56, TKO.
As i mentioned i made my own handle cause no one had the correct top end for the Vette keyed knob. I'll send you pics.
https://www.mcssl.com/store/pro50performance/catalog/product/deb41fd3e51c4a0fa900f5e21c678aa5

The T56 i have is the aftermarket T56, never installed in any factory car but offered as a replacement for the T5 3rd gen F. It uses the Viper tailhousing, mech speedo only and the shifter only fits that tailhouse and the 03-04 Cobra. An oddball base, different from all other factory shifters.

When I finished my T56/81/2" rear project on a Sat, 2002, we were leaving Tues for a NMCOA convention in Nashville and I didn't have a knob to work on that particular handle. On Mon my third stop at a Chevy dealership parts counter and scored a 4th gen SS Camaro black rubber knob. The parts manager knew I was in a pickle, walked out back and stole the knob off the dealership owner's road race LT1 95 Camaro. And handed over to me for free. "I can always get him another one".
So today I pulled that knob out of the parts stash. It's a 16 x1.5 thread. I'll send you a pic.

Found a reverse light harness for you.
Examined the 403 bell, nice. Also brought the the Vette bell down from the mezz. Bell, slave and slave boot are there. Will have to look for the fork for that bell.
Also grabbed all the cold air ducts up there.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/12/21 01:32 PM

Picked everything up at sst yesterday, while I was there they installed bearing retainer on transmission as you can see in pictures and fixed breather cap that was damaged in shipping. Tremec could definitely do a better job packaging I would think, it seems to be a common problem. The sst package is probably not for everyone but I like that everything has detailed instructions and all hardware packs are labeled, good for a first time swap. Clutch and flywheel are repackaged mcleod. All nuts and bolts are there for everything. Pedal set looks nice, probably mount the pedals and m.c. on Monday or Tuesday if I have time just to check everything. I was under the impression that it was like a sick speed monte bracket but its not. The house car el Camino has had it for 7 years and everything looks and feels good on it and it seems to be sturdy with the welded rod on the support side and I couldn't see any firewall deflection. With tax and all at this point I'm at $4700 for everything. [Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/13/21 12:19 AM

First order of business will be rerouting wiring. The factory clutch linkage hole in the firewall is currently used for vacuum, o2 gauge, heated o2, and alarm system that the former owner had installed in the early 90's. So I will have to figure out where to run the wire neatly .
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/13/21 12:54 PM

It looks like a very nice kit, indeed. I like that they spent time preparing an instruction manual.

It looks like they have done some homework on the hydraulic clutch linkage geometry issues that have been tackled by John Bzdel and SickSpeed in different ways. The Silver Sport solution uses another technique and looks very nice and simple, compared to the other 2 solutions. I do like the fact that the firewall bracket is sandwiched with the firewall. I will have to update my website to include this newer slick option.

When you tested the clutch pedal feel in the El Camino, did you have the engine running to see how the engagement felt?

Are there any restrictors in the braided hydraulic line? If so, please discuss why they are there, and possibly removing them, with Silver Sport.

I don't like the transmission mount; I have seen too many of those break. I prefer the solid rubber mounts as they will better withstand aggressive use, without going to polyurethane.

What is the triangle-shaped plate for?

What is in the Pioneer box?

What is in the small white box?

In the wiring section of my website, there are 2 pictures showing the factory locations for different accessories, where there are dimples on the firewall and an X already cut into the interior insulation.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/13/21 02:25 PM

The more I look at the mc bracket the more I like it. Also you drill the 3 holes instead of needing to cut the firewall. I do think it might be another good option though, time will tell.

Did not have engine running. Once again not having any manual swap experience and only driving oem sticks in the past I was not really sure what to look for, what to feel for, or what to ask.

I looked at the line and it does not seem to have any restrictions but I will send an email and ask to make sure.

Noted on the transmission mount.

M.c. reservoir mount is the triangle.

Flywheel and Pressure plate bolts.
[Linked Image]

Speedo adapter
[Linked Image]

For better reference the next 2 pictures are the "g-body hydraulic actuator kit" the cost is $649. The pedals in the earlier post are $199.
[Linked Image]

The concentric slave cylinder (csc) retainer. Since local I just took my transmission to them and they installed it for me. I assume it would be a pretty easy process just remove the 4 bolts.
[Linked Image]

So this is the hydraulic kit offered through american powertrain for the g body its $800 compared to the sst which is $850 with the pedals.

"G-Body SickSpeedMonte/HYDRAMAX System for Tremec 6-speed - American Powertrain" https://americanpowertrain.com/shop...onte-hydramax-system-for-tremec-6-speed/

Mark at any point if you need better photos of anything just let me know. You are more than welcome to use anything I post if needed. I also plan to post detailed photos of install.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/13/21 05:26 PM

I think you have a better kit; it is quite impressive.

The clutch and brake pedals looks to be a copies of the factory pedal. I wonder if the pushrod hole is in the same place as the factory clutch pedal.

Installing the CSC retainer may require changing the shims behind it to reset the proper preload on the mainshaft bearings (assuming they are tapered roller bearings).

You can remove "rubber fork opening grommet" from your list of things left to buy; it was in your kit. The line pokes through it.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/13/21 06:55 PM

Instructions say if using the existing pedal to drill a 5/16" hole in the pedal 5.25" down from the pivot point, has pictures and description in instructions that come with kit.

When I opened the packaging I was glad to see the rubber grommet in there.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/14/21 12:14 AM

It is nice that factory pedals can be used.

Do they mention anything about relocating the cruise control harness and vacuum hose?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/14/21 02:19 AM

No mention about cruise control or vacuum hose other than removing it for the master cylinder.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/14/21 04:00 AM

Just a couple notes.

I like a feature of that throw out bearing setup. It installs on the bearing retainer but doesn't slide on the bearing retainer. A throwourt bearing activated by a fork needs to slide on the retainer. The bearing retainer needs to be greased for the bearing to slide, clutch dust can effect the grease, The bearing over time which is hardened will wear a cast iron or alum retainer (ford). Stick shifts of the by gone days all did this method.
As Mark will know the G-body stick bell with the angled fork was a lousy setup. It would create a bind on the bearing pushing the on one side of the bearing more than the other. Over time that hardened bearing would eat the retainer. After replacing the bearing retainer on my setup twice because of uneven wear a new retainer was bought, .005" removed from the OD and sent out to hard chrome it. Changing to the indexed Lakewood shield and their fork now is a good combo that should last a long time.
So i like that feature of the slave on the bearing retainer. Makes the above problem none existent.

All ratios involved in getting the right pedal travel, feel on the pedal as in where it engages, pedal pressure all hopefully are worked out and the setup is everything expected. It's one of the necessary thing to be just right when you're done. Static pressure of the pressure plate is one of those big variables as far as pedal pressure. More clutch usually means higher holding pressure, static pressure, pedal effort goes up. Today's more aggressive ceramic disc bite a lot quicker. This make that clutch engagement point on the pedal travel harder to be smooth. Can be irritating. Can be necessary if you need a high torque handling clutch setup.

The original mechanical clutch set in a A/G 78-82, was engineering for grandma to drive the El Camino to get some feed for her horse. No real high performance applications. The pedal travel/stroke was long, the pedal sat much higher than the brake pedal, pressure plate static pressure was low, the pedal pressure/effort was very low. Put in more clutch and effort goes up, parts get stained. Several mods shortened the pedal stroke to get the proper throwout bearing stroke and were done to make it right.
Pretty sure Bernie has done all that homework to make his pedal setup as good as it can get. Several have run it and say it works great.

Those pressure plate bolts have 1/2" hex, typically they are 9/16". I needed those bolts when the 10 3/4" clutch was installed on a 153, hard to find 20 years ago.

What weight is the flywheel and make sure it's the correct balance for your engine, needs to be for a 305.
What is the part number for the McLeod clutch?

Speedo gear setup is not like the old GM, T5 and also used in the T56 where you had mech as an option. You're stuck running the speedo gear from the housing vender.

Personally I would do a poly trans mount.

Didn't see a pilot bearing in the pile of parts. Make sure you measure penetration of the input into that bearing. I have to run this one.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-SBC-BBC-Chevy-V8-Extra-Long-Bronze-Pilot-Bushing,6974.html?_br_psugg_q=91025800

It appears the trans input shaft installs from inside the case, bearing bottoms out in the case and is shimmed for endplay. It appears a seal is installed in the bearing retainer and a gasket is used for the retainer to housing seal. Input shaft bearing is an open tapered so oil control is important.

All I got for now.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/14/21 11:32 AM

Bob, the difference in pedal height has to do with power brakes. With manual brakes, the pedal heights would be the same. This same phenomenon is seen on other cars, too.

I concluded the scrubbing wear on the bearing retainer was due to the location of the return spring hole in the fork, not the fork geometry. The fork geometry was neutral and correct; a straight line can be drawn through the centerline of the bearing retainer, fork ball stud, and lower pushrod pocket. Without a return spring, the wear should be negligible. I relocated the return spring on my fork to be inline with the centerline of the bearing retainer, ball stud, and lower pushrod pocket..

The plastic speedometer gear looks like the one used in a Ford T5.

Good catch on the pilot bearing not being in the kit.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/15/21 12:43 AM

Bob, will the pressure plate bolts pictured work?

Flywheel is 25lbs external balanced. When I looked it up on mcleod originally it said 86-92 1 piece seal, sbc 5.0, 5.7. I thought I had a picture of clutch part number from the box. Im working a late shift tonight, Here is link from sst

https://shiftsst.com/advanced-friction-str-10-5-clutch-kit-1.html

He assured me that it would work great with the built 305 and what I'm doing, . They guarantee that you will be happy with everything or they will make it right and from online things I've found it rings true. Hopefully I don't have to try that promise out.

Yes, the speedo gear is the t5 Ford style.

Pilot bearing is there just hard to see in the original picture
[Linked Image]

If you look at the sick speed monte pedal kit and how the firewall is cut and where the linkage connects to the clutch pedal the sst kit links to the pedal at the same spot. After studying both I believe both kits will perform the same they just accomplish it different ways.



Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/15/21 06:03 AM

Pressure plate bolts will be fine. It's about the seating of the bolt head more than the size of the hex. Most only torque to 35. Notice ARP uses a washer on a standard bolt.
https://arp-bolts.com/kits/arpkit-detail.php?RecordID=196

When running a 10 3/4" pressure plate such as the Centerforce DF161911 the 10 3/4" disc is almost touching the bolts. A 9/16 hex would touch, you need those bolts like you have. Looking at that clutch you can see window at the 6 mounting holes. A 10 1/2' cover will not have windows.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctf-df161911/make/chevrolet/model/corvette/year/1987

A 10 1/2" disc most times only measures 10 3/8", that 10 3/4" measures 10 3/4" and only a little smaller than what an 11" disc would measure, maybe 10 7/8".
When you do the surface area the 10 3/4 comes out the big winner. Because you have more surface the material can be less aggressive. And the big plus is that clutch can go on a 153 flywheel. I ran that clutch behind my mild 305 and used it again with the 427 on drag radials. It worked very well and could handle the launches. Changing to a QTP bias ply slicks and thought I needed a " bigger clutch". Bought a 700 lb/ft 10 3/4" from American, then Science Friction, hated it from day one. Initially thought it would get better, NOT. CERAMIX material on the 10 3.4 disc, more static pressure than the old Centerforece, chatter in reverse, hated it, but drove until it wore the disc to steel in 11K miles. But i hated it.

Replaced that with the McLeod RST6913 07.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-6913-07#overview
Love it so far with 4K on it. Pedal effort a little more than the Centerforce was, smooth engagement, no chatter from the floater plate. Having a 12.1 gear ratio in 1st gear makes clutch release much easier though. The plus is the discs are 9 11/16" and there are four surfaces so even with all faces being organic it rated at a 800 hp. The higher static pressure needed because the pressure plates is 9 11/16" which accounts for the higher pedal effort. A compromise. Mcleod uses the same pressure plate and changes the disc material to metallic for the RXT and hp rating of 1000.
Only down side to going all organic is heat, it tolerates it much less than the much sticker material used. Over heat organic and they cook, slip, burn, smoke. McLeod says no slicks with the RST organic discs. I got a taste of overheating them trying to move the car up hill on wet grass, sliding the clutch on a cold engine. The clutch disc weren't bedded yet. Past trying to get good 60' times, 1.7s ain't good but enough is enough.
By the way those new R660s are sticky, will find how sticky one of these Fri nights at the Grove. The RST will be up to that task.

Brent all that typing had a message. The clutch is huge part of jumping in the car and enjoying the ride. Rowing gears can be tiring, but a clutch can make or break the trip. The clutch shown in the link I'm not sure of the origin, the price point is low. Recommended by them to be a good choice for your install, probably. But think it's a throw away if you go the bigger power route a few thousands miles down the road.
That Centerforce I mentioned would like the 305 now and could be bolted right behind a new mill.
I think Lance may be running an LT1 Centerforce DF 10 1/2".

Getting the right flywheel balance is important. On my old 305 was the GM nodular used on the F-body T5. New engine a billet McLeod, two piece,153, internal balance, I ordered at 20 lb. The new engine doesn't need a heavy wheel to get going. Heavier wheels will help smooth out a loopy cam at idle, help a low torque at idle engine pull out better. Alum wheels get into the teens, some as light as 12 lb. Lite flywheels spin up faster, good for some engine combos, but having little mass getting rid of the heat can be a problem.
Also deceleration is effected by flywheel weight, engine braking.

As an added points to clutch discs and how they relate to the synchronizes in the trans. When you shift at speed you disengage the clutch. The disc is now free spinning at the engine rpm when the clutch as disengage, the disc is spinning the input shaft/gear. You're in 1st gear shifting to 2nd. You disengage the sleeve/slider from 1st into neutral and into 2nd gear locking the input to 2nd gear.
Inside the trans the synchro job is to reduce the speed of the disc/input shaft to match the speed of the next gear. Effectively it's a braking system. The better it works, the better it shifts. If it doesn't work it grinds. Once the gear change is complete it's direct drive, input shaft/disc and new gear locked together. Let out the clutch and step on the gas.

For to many decades, maybe 10 of grinding the gears, better synchro design to make that shift go smoothly without ever a hitch is the goal.
Tremec, old Borg Warner, has been improving that with every new trans they release. The early TKO had issues and even some of the later TKO until they did a redesign. The T56 had lots of issues in it's early decade or so, today's are a much better bred. Mine falls into that senior citizen group.
Growing up banging gear with a fresh Muncie with a Hurst and T-handle, those Chrysler and Ford 4 spds the friends had, my T56 never gave me that pleasure.
But I could swap in the TKX and only have to do from the shifter back, the rest would be a bolt in. Something to think about.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/16/21 01:35 AM

Been a couple of rough, long, hot days here at work getting ready for an expansion.

Bob I'll ponder on the clutch some more, as always thanks for the advice and insight. Talking about the tkx i think its going to be the ticket and a game changer as far as manual swaps. I think it will be a good transmission but only time will tell. Im ready to row some gears, probably still be awhile and then break in. But I am ready.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/16/21 03:54 AM

Don't get to antsy, You still need to finish a few things under the hood.

The stick swap into an SS is probably the best, most rewarding, project. It changes the whole personality of the car.,
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/19/21 12:48 PM

I learned a couple of things over the last week about fuel. Everyone with experience has said it but until you see it yourself you tend to have small doubts. In my thinking it was hard to believe that ethanol fuel could make much of a difference. On near same temp days driving to our favorite restaurant the difference in temp was between 5-7 degrees hotter running 93 ethanol vs. 93 100% gas. As Bob had told me it did evaporate out of the bowl for restarts after sitting a day or 2. So, back to 93% 100% gas for me. Drove the car to work this morning and fired at the flick of a switch.

Been working some extra hours at work on a project so not much progress on the tkx. Bob helped me out on a super nice 403 bellhousing so I put a couple bolts on it, took some measurements, and slid the csc (concentric slave cylinder) on to take a look and here it is just in case someone is curious on how it mounts up.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/19/21 03:45 PM

A little bit each day, and soon you will be done!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed - 06/20/21 01:15 PM

A quick trip to the glass beader and that bell would look like new to match that pretty TKX.
20 years ago didn't have that hydraulic throwout bearing option. Or an easy bolt-in 5 speed for old cars that you could beat on,WOT speed shift. Makes the stick swap into the old cars so much easier when flywheel, clutch and bell from the old stick setup can be reused. Thanks Tremec for finally recognizing the need.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/25/21 01:43 AM

Dropped the bell off at the blast shop. Pick it up tomorrow, thats another $40 which is a little cheaper than I thought it would be. Made some progress this evening. I was hoping just to get all the wiring removed from the master cylinder hole tonight, ended up getting master cylinder bracket, master cylinder, and linkage mounted. Should have the pedals in with a hour or so of work tomorrow , drill the new hole in the firewall to accommodate the wiring and run all of it. So far I'm really impressed with this kit. Here's a few pictures of the install.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/26/21 05:27 PM

Few more pictures of reservoir installed. I didnt care for their bracket so I cut a piece off, tig welded it and and put a bend in it so it would sit flat. Its slow going a little at a time but atleast its some progress.
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/27/21 01:35 AM

Made a little more progress today. The 403 bell looked brand new when picked up from the blast shop but I decided to paint it so I primed then sprayed the same low gloss black as my engine block. Just to see how it looked I threw on the pro shift 5.0 handle and the plain black ball that I got from Bob and it looks awesome.

[Linked Image]

Also finished getting the pedals mounted and I have to say that I'm really pleased so far. Hopefully get the wiring moved up the firewall where Bob and Marc relocated theirs.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/28/21 01:04 AM

Not much progress but I did get the hole drilled in the firewall for the grommet. I already ran my wires for my vacuum and afr gauge through, just a few more single wires and ill be good to go. Only had about 30 minutes garage time tonight. Picture before wires were ran.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/28/21 01:55 AM

It looks great!

How many miles do you have on your car? It looks brand new. Nothing is dirty. My 2-year-old F-150 with 2500 miles on it has a dustier engine compartment.

Thanks for the firewall picture. I realize I put my ground wires on wrong and forgot the tach filter. Now I will have fun pulling the new sealer off. I will mount the filter separately. I don't think I will be able to get the sealer off.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/28/21 01:37 PM

Thanks Marc!

When I bought the car it had 16,000 miles on it, now I'm at 19,500. It was super clean from the get go. When I got the car it was 100% original but it never has bothered me changing stuff out even if it hurts the value as I have no plans of ever selling just want the car to be what I want. My first car was a blue monte carlo ls with European front end and all I ever dreamed about is being able to have a 87-88 white SS with maroon interior. Searched pretty much the whole southeast and some north and then this one popped up 30 minutes down the road. I just wanted something with nice paint and interior.

Anytime you need any pictures of something just let me know and I will get them for you.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/29/21 02:42 PM

Does anyone see any issues with wiring the neutral safety switch this way on the monte carlo? This diagram is from American auto wire for the tko. Just looking for a clean simple install.
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Travis Jones

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/29/21 05:54 PM

I mean you could do that, but why not use the NSS wiring from the 200-4r and column?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/29/21 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Travis Jones
I mean you could do that, but why not use the NSS wiring from the 200-4r and column?


The reason I originally started looking at and searching the relay route was due to the fact that the purple wire coming off the start terminal of the switch is 12 awg and ive not even looked at current draw on the wire yet. I was worried about how robust the nss is in the transmission and it seems like it was a concern with the tko on other pages.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/29/21 09:37 PM

Does the TKO also have a neutral sensing switch? I didn't know that.

Brent wants to use the Neutral sensing switch in the TKX transmission, instead of a neutral start switch on the clutch pedal, as the control signal to allow the starter to engage. That way, the car can be started in neutral without having to depress the clutch pedal (causing wear on the crankshaft thrust bearing). There is no NSS on the 1982-1988 cars, just a neutral sensing harness, which should be left unplugged from the column when swapping the manual transmission. The top of the upper steering column tube (on automatic cars) is shaped to prevent the ignition key from being rotated to the Start position when the shifter is not in P or N.

In the factory wiring diagram, the purple wire goes directly from the ignition switch on the column to the starter solenoid, with a connector (C100) somewhere in between.

In the American Auto Wire diagram, it appears they want the purple wire cut, and then add the red, pink, and tan wires. The diagram could be simplified by connecting the purple wire directly to pin 86 on the relay (excluding the pink wire) and add a short jumper from the purple wire to pin 30 on the relay. Am I understanding their diagram?

Regarding the robustness of the neutral sensing switch, a relay with the neutral sensing switch as a control may be advisable. The factory NSS used in manual cars is not robust and should not be used to activate the starter (do not turn the key to start and then depress the clutch pedal). A friend had a new 1979 Monza and thought it was slick to start the car by turning the key and depressing the clutch pedal, until the switch failed.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/29/21 10:27 PM

So I called tremec and they said that I absolutely need to use a relay.

Marc, you are correct on the wiring diagram. I pulled out my electrical supplement manual when I got home and saw the same thing as far as the purple wire goes and the c100 plug. American auto wire sells a nss "kit" which that is what the above diagram is from and using their color wires. I already have plenty of relays with terminals. I plan to put the purple wire directly from switch to pin 30, purple wire from pin 87 to solenoid. Jumper like Marc said between 30 and 86.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/30/21 02:09 AM

Ok. I've had a factory stick car neutral safety switch on my car for 20 years now, never a problem. When Rockauto closed out the switch i bought the remaining three switches to throw in my stash of spare parts. Those manual trans neutral safety switches were not available for years.

Simply the purple from the ign switch runs over to the NS switch, from the switch to the starter solenoid, all 12 gauge. The switch itself just snaps in to a hole above the e-brake area, the switches sliding rod into the top of the stock clutch pedal. Because the A/G cars came with stick all G-bodies have the provisions to attach the NS switch to under dash hole. Two 1/4" spade connectors. As we know that area under the dash has a lot of clutter, the only problem with the install.
No need to install a relay, the switch contacts, 12 gauge wire, more than carry the load.

Brent, make sure you check the lower right corner of the fuse box for interference at the bottom of the clutch pedal stroke. One of the reason why the clutch and brake pedals are close together. People with big feet can have a problem with those two pedal being so close.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/30/21 05:22 PM

Everything seemed to have plenty of room and clear when cycling the pedal up and down.

I might just see if I can hunt down a #469085 switch. 4 speed conversion has some and i see some on ebay, would be easier wiring wise. If I use the switch on the tkx I will probably use a relay since tremec recommends it and the wires are only 18-20 awg going into the switch on the transmission.

The guy that owned the car before me caught someone trying to steal the car from his carport in the the middle of the night in the early 90's. He had someone install a python alarm system with key fobs that unlock/lock, pop the trunk, and arm/disarm. Who ever installed did a horrible job of running wires and keeping it tidy. They also used the wire taps that cut through the wire jacket and into the wire. Im just not a fan of the taps. Its handy to have but I was thinking of doing away with the system. If not I have quite a bit of clean up and soldering to do. What does everyone else do for keeping their car safe?
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/30/21 06:42 PM

Yours will have a pretty good built-in security system soon. There's less and less thieves every day that know how to drive stick...

I've heard of quite a few folks doing hidden kill switches, you could probably wire one into your neutral circuit while you are working on it. Either tuck it away under the dash, or leave it tastefully exposed but mislabled, like "Aux Cooling Fan" or something. The more low-key the better, though, because there's a reasonable chance someone that might hop in and drive it away has seen you start it, so obvious motions will defeat the purpose.
There was a GPS tracker relay that someone posted here or on facebook. It would send the GPS data to your phone, and you could remote disable the relay from the app. I would use it for my fuel pump, I'm thinking yours is mechanical so you would need to identify a different circuit that would disable the car without hacking more wiring that is necessary...

I think the end solution tends to be figuring out how to get the car back, since someone intent on stealing an older Monte is probably going to pull up with a wrecker and take off with it in no time flat, so better luck finding it ASAP than stopping someone from starting it. But at the same time, simple stuff adds time and makes it much less likely for the kid down the street to hop in and take it for a joyride on a dare...
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 06/30/21 09:03 PM

I like having the key fob to lock, unlock, and pop the trunk. I also like having the alarm which is very loud. I hate the wiring mess and I worry about problems down the road. I guess I need to just weigh my options and if I decide to keep it take the time, do some soldering, build brackets and mount the modules and relays neatly. Not what I had planned at the moment but now would be the time to deal with it. I would like to hear others opinions on what they would do if they were in my shoes. Also still like to hear what other people use as theft deterrent.

Shawn, all great points you have brought up.

Just for reference this is what I pulled out:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Buick Runner

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/01/21 02:46 AM

They sell remote control ignition kill switches for kid ATVs, probably sould be adaptable to cars. Sadly anytime you drive a classic car you need to look out for anyone tailing you.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/04/21 12:28 AM

Unfortunately, if it's a pro going after it, they're going to get it. Everything else is just to keep the smashers and dopers moving past your car (or from easy access) and to slow down the semi-pros.

I think if I were you, I'd clean up the wiring on the alarm system and add at least one hidden kill switch. I can pass on some ideas via PM or email if you're interested. A buddy back in the early 90s had an alarm installed with an interior motion sensor that would set off a warning "Please step away from the car." if you looked in the window. If you looked in the window again it would set off a couple chirps. If you looked in a third time it would set off the alarm. That was a super cool set up. Had a remote stand-alone battery for the alarm and connected to a pager.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/20/21 01:46 PM

Been super busy at work and have not had any time for the car, I have been driving it a lot on the weekends so thats a good thing. Last night I got the car up in the air with cribbing under all 4 wheels, between frame and concrete I have 19". Hopefully start removing stuff tonight, going to pull the headers again and get them recoated. When I started the engine after the build the timing was way retarded and put off a lot of heat and burnt the coating off, it was hot enough that it pretty much melted any wiring and plug wires within 6", lesson learned. I hate to spend the dough on the recoat but there is a huge difference in temp under hood since the coating was removed and it doesn't look very good. I figured while I've got the car in the air, starter removed now would be as good of time as any, headers slide right out from the bottom.

Atleast while the headers are removed it will be easy to get spark plugs out and extra room to work. I need to remove plugs to easily turn the engine over so I can indicate in the bellhousing runout. First thing to do after removing everything is drain oil in engine and inspect filter. Ive got right at 600 miles and if any problems now would be the time to see them. If all looks well, which it should ill move on to to the trans install. Install flywheel and bellhousing, put magnetic base and indictator on flywheel and hope bellhousing runout is within .005" when going around the opening. This is a requirement from tremec to prevent sideloading of bearings. If not within .005" i will need to install offset dowels. Not sure if this is common on all transmission. Here is a video of the process.

https://youtu.be/fu9bg-fJdnc

Hopefully have more updates and pictures coming soon. I'll try to get a little done this week but im off 4 days coming up and 3 of those will be on the car hopefully.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/20/21 05:07 PM

Height of the car on cribbing depends on a couple things. First is waist line, and BMI, are you comfortable under the car without restriction. Second is the weight of the trans. At a mere 100 lbs the TKX would be a simple lift and slide into place for some young guys with biceps. In the days of a Muncie 4 spd one person could easly handle the weight, today's 5 and 6 spd are a lot bigger and heavier.
When I did the T56 an auto trans jack was used, a wood platform was made for the t56 to sit in and cradle the trans and that was screwed to the top of the jack. This required a rocker height of 24" to be able to roll the trans in and out from under the car.

Initial install of the T56 required numerous times of install and remove so the tunnel could be massaged, crossmember mods done to achieve tailhousing height. No clutch was installed during all this to make trans ins and outs easier.

Sometimes those alignment dowels in the block can be a PITA to pull. Hoping the old bell doesn't have a lot of runout, but would guess it ain't near perfect, it's OEM form decades ago.
On a steel bell like the Lakewood scattershield the method is a little different. Instead of offset dowels a sleeve goes over the dowels and once the steel bell is located the sleeves are welded over the dowel holes to the bell. This was done with the engine out of the car, hanging on a hoist in my case. Not possible to do this on an engine stand.
https://www.jegs.com/p/Lakewood/Lakewood-Bellhousing-Locator-Kit/749396/10002/-1

If you find the dowels on your engine can't be removed the alignment holes in the bell could be drilled oversize, sleeves made of alum, and TIGed to the bell. No the easiest method but an alternative.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/20/21 05:45 PM

I slid my T5 under the car, then the jack, then slid/lifted the T5 onto the jack (back end first as it was the lightest) when under the tunnel. The T5 would not fit under the car on the jack, while the car was on 4 jack stands under the frame.

I was not able to lift the transmission into place without the jack (I was by myself).
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/20/21 06:50 PM

Mark, you just need bigger jackstands. When i did the trans the first time borrowed two 12 ton stands from a friend that does "big" trucks. A few years later he showed up at my shop with an old set of 12 tons he bought for cheap at an auction, free to me. They will safely go 24"+.
In the rear my Lincoln 3 ton set are used under the rear to get the car level at 24" rocker height.

We all wish we had a lift in our shop space.
Bob
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/20/21 10:29 PM

My jackstands go up to 9' tall... laugh My problem was finding a trans jack tall enough...
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/20/21 10:59 PM

Rub it in, Lance, just rub it in...

I thought I was going to build a 2 1/2 car garage this year with clearance for a lift, but it turns out I'm actually building a "shed" that won't really fit a car (but will have 11' ceiling, I suppose....). Between being too busy at work, material prices (lumber) going insane, and now breaking my foot in a dozen places, I suppose plans are bound to change. Oh well, I still get to follow along on you guys spending money on your cars beer
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/21/21 01:32 AM

Bob, 5' 11" 195lbs, not sure on bmi, doctor gives me a rough time about my weight every time says I should be 180 lbs. Definitely not going to be bench pressing the trans in place, 10-15 years ago I would give it a try, I like to think I'm smarter now but more likely just not as strong, lol. Cribbing is 11" which has the frame at 18", I can get more height if needed.

I already took measurements of jack and both transmissions, going to see what I can come up with, I don't want to be under the car with trans in place trying to work something out. As we know it will be a balancing act between getting the car high enough and getting the jack with whatever I come up with to go that high.

If Lance were closer I would have had him come over and help me remove my headers tonight, I remember reading in his thread how much he loves working with long tube headers. Got the starter removed, headers pulled, removed some of the things attached to the trans, and flywheel bolts out. Not much but I just had a couple hours tonight.

Shawn, hope your foot heals up quick sounds like a bad situation. I work out of a garage that is 24' x 24' ceilings are 12' but a lift just won't work. I have to leave space for my wife to park but its much better than outside. My dad's garage would be the best place to do any type of work but being 30 minutes one way is not worth the hassle. Probably won't get anything else done til Sunday but atleast ive got a decent start. Here is a picture of my car on the cribbing.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/21/21 02:52 PM

Thanks, it's not too bad, but does have me completely non-weight bearing for 8 weeks minimum, possibly 12-14 and I'm about 3 weeks in.

"Just a few hours" and got starter and headers removed and transmission basically unbolted? Pretty good progress. You'll be slamming gears in no time.
And through many discussions about building a garage, me and my wife determined we had some differences in the definition of a garage. I said it was a building where you take non-working vehicles and make them work, and take working vehicles and make them not work. She thought it was a building that is used to store Christmas decorations and use for making/building/painting stuff for the house. At least we both agreed that only under threat of imminent hail storms should a regular, daily driven vehicle be parked inside it, so at least we have that in common.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/27/21 02:14 AM

Pulled the old trans out Sunday evening , here is a few pictures for comparison with the new trans. The tkx is
roughly 2 3/4" longer.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/27/21 02:26 AM

Is 2.75 inches what we came up with a few weeks ago, when considering whether you need to buy a new driveshaft or cut yours?

I wonder what Tremec used as a requirement to design the length specification for the length of the TKX? It is 1/4" shorter than the Camaro T5, longer than a Mustang T5, and 2.75" inches longer than a Muncie, T10, or Saginaw.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/27/21 02:38 AM

I indicated in the bellhousing and runout was only .0035", so no offset dowel pins for me, thats a good thing. I was really surprised it was that close. I checked it about 5 different times and always came out the same.

I got the transmission in and believe it or not if you slide the g force 200-4r crossmember up 5 1/4" everything lines up perfect and the transmission angle was dead on what the old transmission angle was. Just need to drill some new holes.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Here is a picture of the closest spot in the tunnel and you could easily get your finger by. I will get better pictures tomorrow.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

The hole in the tunnel ended up being right between the 2 rivnuts where the auto shifter bolted in. I cleaned up the hole more with a file latter. The plate is a spare one Bob had for reference, ill probably cut my boot hole a little farther forward and slide the console a little more for ward.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/27/21 03:05 AM

The 2 rivet nuts are still in the floor? That is very convenient.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/27/21 06:31 AM

Nice, looks like things are going extremely smooth, lucky you.

Double check your engine trans angle, make sure the trans is high enough in the tunnel before you lock everything down. That angle is very important, less is always better.
When the engine torques over the left side of the trans gets closer to the tunnel. make sure you have enough clearance between the trans and tunnel, more than 1/8" to compensate for that.

The console can be moved forward a little, not much play in those slots in the back.
The front mounts for the console were on the shifter, new mounts should be made to support the front.

Shifter hole, location, looks goods.

Also remember the engine trans is not centered in the frame, offset about 1" to the right. Trans crossmember to frame left to right need to be verified. Should be good but just something to insure is correct.
Bob
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/27/21 01:19 PM

Looks good, and making good progress!
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/27/21 04:57 PM

Nice progress, and fantastic luck with initial fitment. Good work...
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/28/21 08:53 PM

On the riv-nuts I had to remove the passenger side one. Everything was going well but when I went to put in the transmission I got to the last 1/2" and never could get it to go all the way in. Plastic alignment tool has lots of play so I think that is the issue, can't get the input shaft into the pilot bearing. I tried 20 times wrestling the transmission every which way and decided to call it a evening and cool off and think through it. Did some searching and the first thing everyone says is push the clutch in. At the moment I don't have the csc or master cylinder bled. Did some research and it seems lots of people have good luck using the metal alignment tool. Called silver sport and they said they have one thats the exact size as the input shaft, $40. Probably won't get a chance to work on car til Sunday or Monday but other than that small issue everything is still working out great. Hopefully my luck continues. Probably take me another week or so with my work schedule to get everything done.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 07/28/21 09:41 PM

If the alignment tool is not a snug fit, center it the best you can while tightening the pressure plate. I once was successful by eye, but now have a plastic tool that is very tight that came with a clutch kit some time ago.

The pilot of the input shaft is a snug fit into the pilot bearing, if you are using a roller bearing. The transmission must be square to the bellhousing or it may be difficult to pass into the bearing. A bronze bushing typically has a tapered entry, so is a bit easier to fit into.

It can be frustrating when the transmission won't go in, so I feel your pain. Don't try and pull the transmission in with bolts, or the ears of the transmission may break off. If the interference is with the input shaft and the disk, you will damage the disk.

If you haven't done so already, the spline on the input shaft should be lightly greased, emphasis on lightly, to allow the disk to move freely when the pressure plate is disengaged.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/02/21 02:57 PM

Not had any time to work on the car much but hopefully get back on it tonight. I did recieve the tool from silver sport , same dimensions as input shaft so hopefully it will be the ticket. The tool does have a bevel though.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/02/21 04:02 PM

It looks like a quality piece. If it is a snug fit into the pilot bearing and clutch disc, you will be golden.

Based on the other parts made by Silver Sport, I would expect it to be a quality piece.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/03/21 02:18 AM

Put the new tool to use, tightened the pressure plate bolts jacked the trans up and it slid right in. That $40 is the best money I've spent in a while.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/03/21 12:01 PM

Very Nice!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/04/21 01:55 AM

Did my final alignment on the crossmember tonight, it is slid forward exactly 4 7/8", all holes are drilled through the frame and everything bolted in. The crossmember I am using is the G-force for the 200-4r.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/04/21 06:17 AM

I remember the first time I picked up one of those G-force crossmembers. The wife and I drove 2 hours to see Henry Helfman in NJ so I could test drive his 1987 SS that Crazy Bill built, 350 / TPI / T56 / 8 1/2" oh, and a GP dash. A couple decades ago Crazy Bill was the man in the SW, good parts, my 8 1/2 and XH steering box came from him. Henry flew out to NM bought the car from Bill and drove it back to NJ. It was a very nice car and build using F-body parts.

While looking at Henry's car I noticed a G-Force crossmember laying on the floor. They were just coming onto the market about 2001. I picked it up and was impressed by how overweight it was, it's a beast, maybe 35 lb. It's a shame that much bulk has to do such a simple job.

Because I'm running a cat-back the stock crossmenber was reused. The trans mount height and forward/rearward location changed. Later a second crossmember was fabbed because i wasn't happy with how high the tailhousing was, needed to go up higher in the tunnel. Rather that redo the crossmember a donor was removed from an 86 Old Cutlass at the U-pull. I couldn't believe the difference in the steel gauge used. I think the Olds was 17 lbs and the SS crossmember was 13. That modified Olds crossmenber has been in the car almost 2 decades now.

A consideration when setting trans to tunnel clearance is condition of the body bushings. As they collapse, rot, decay, fall out, the body gets closer to the frame. Just throwing that out there, I've seen it.

My wife, Henry and me at the helm of my first T56 Monte test drive happened that day in NJ, 2001. I knew instantly how much it changed the cars personality. That was the Fall of 01, ordered the wife's new 02 SS for her Christmas present and by June was driving an 86 SS 2200 miles to a car show, in a T56 car.

May the grins on your test drive be the reward for all that time and effort.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/05/21 04:24 AM

Those G-Force crossmembers are worth every ounce and penny.

I had the welds break loose on a modified stock crossmember as I shifted into third gear at around 100mph. Transmission drops down, busting the transmission housing, breaks the input shat, converter ears spinning around slaps and cracks the block. Driveshaft twists and snaps past the safety loop, and if I had not cut the wheels hard to the right when the rear-end started to pole vault, it could have flipped the car. To add insult to injury, once I got the car stopped, headers ignited the transmission fluid that was everywhere. Fire was relatively contained and I was relatively calm at this point. I grabbed my fire extinguisher, slid to the ground, just to have it go "poof" (one little puff came out) when I pulled the trigger. That's when I started to panic. This was on an isolated extension road that I used for testing and I had never seen a car on the road at this time of night.

Jumped up, pushed the car forward, while on fire, to get it away from the puddle of transmission fluid that had formed under the car. Grabbed a towel from the back seat and jumped back down to the ground trying to beat out the flames. Fuel line was very close - thankfully I was running big thick fire retardant hydraulic lines instead of the more common braided rubber hose, but time was still limited and I was having no luck beating out the flames - they were getting worse. Just as I had come to grips that I was going to have to watch the car burn to the ground, this car skids up behind me. Dude jumps out and runs towards the car with a huge extinguisher yelling for me to away from the car. He has the fire out in a matter of seconds. Fortunately, it was a volunteer fireman. Absolutely unbelievable stroke of luck after a devastating break.

Dude carried me to the nearest pay phone (before cellphones were common) so I could call a wrecker friend of mine. The fireman would not take a dime, saying it wasn't out of his way and could get the extinguisher refilled at no cost to him. I do believe people like that are few and far between, even back then and for sure now-a-days.

Long story short (LOL) - don't skimp on a crossmember and routinely check your fire extinguisher!!!!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/08/21 01:55 AM

Kevin, I must say you were lucky on that one. I saw a car insurance guy on a hotrod show one time talking about the main thing he sees is that hotrod guys for the most part carry fire extinguishers but that they are never big enough.

Dropped my driveshaft off Thursday they said it should be done Monday, new joints on both ends and balanced. The original length is 52 3/8" and the new length will be 49 3/8", so a total of exactly 3" shorter. Driveline shop told me to push yoke all the way in and pull it out 1". Measure from center cap of rearend yoke to center cap of driveshaft yoke. Cost for the driveshaft mods is $180, ill have a complete cost when im done im thinking around $5300 for whole job.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

This is the dust boot that came from silver sport, I put some sealant between it and the sheetmetal.

[Linked Image]

Everything is done on interior and im pretty happy with it. Bob helped me out on the shift ball and it was the exact look I was going for, Sikky 8" handle, and a c5 shifter boot. I know some people like the boot to the knob but I like a little stick showing.

[Linked Image]

Right now I have everything done for the most part except for bleeding the master cylinder, getting headers, driveshaft, and a few odds and ends. Hope to have it on the road by the weekend. Driveshaft and headers should be done Monday. While I had time I did an oil change, cut the filter open and everything looked good. Pulled the valve covers just to go over everything and once again all looked well.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/08/21 04:11 AM

Getting it done!
So 1" shorter than stock center to center, good to know info for others doing the same swap. Also 1" of slip yoke end play is more than adequate. The reason for all that end play is because the rear housing has an unequal length control arm four link and causes the pinion yoke to move farther away on droop and closer on compression of the rear. That 1" endplay is enough to compensate for driveline length change.

Shortening the stock shaft is the smart thing to do right now as long as you act rationally and don't get carry away with banging gears and sticker tires. We all know how that can happen.
G shafts were never known for quality, balance and straight were issues.
I think the intent is to spend some more funds to do a rear upgrade in the future. At a 180 bucks that should get you a good shaft until the next round of improvements.

I like the shifter look, really clean and subtle. The guys that look at it in wonder will next look to see a third pedal is down there. Cool.

Something i did to hold that top boot up higher on the shifter was a thick black O-ring is under the the boot, stretch around the shifter handle to prevent the boot sliding down. Leather over time get softer. When I machined my shifter handle a step was included to hold the 0-ring in place.

Where the steering column drops out of the firewall is the arm that was used for the column lockout. I believe I cut it off, no need for it anymore, NO AUTOMATIC.

On the top of the column is the bowl which is rotated by the lockout shaft and lever to lock the column. Without that linkage the bowl can be rotated by hand. As a stick shift car now you always keep the bowl rotated counter clockwise.

Almost done.
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/08/21 12:29 PM

Brent, it looks superb!

Does the TKX have a different spline count than the automatic (same as TH350, Saginaw, and early T10)? or did you just want to use a new yoke?

Bob, the new yoke has a different distance from the joint and the outer sleeve than the original yoke, so the length of the new shaft is specific to using that yoke. A length using an original yoke would be needed to determine the amount cut when reusing the original yoke.

Brent, when you get the new shaft and old yoke back, would you please measure the driveshaft length using the old yoke as a reference? It would be good to know that length, and to compare to the 2.75" difference measured earlier. Of course, the booted rear seal will affect the measurement, so please measure the stick-out of the boot as well.

If you didn't have the booted seal, the new length measured would have been longer.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/08/21 02:17 PM

200-4r is a 27 spline count, tkx is 31 spline count.

When I get the driveshaft back I will take some more measurements so we can compare.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/08/21 03:07 PM

Does the shop cutting the driveshaft know you have an extended booted rear seal? By extending the yoke 1 inch past the boot, less yoke is inside the transmission than if you had a flat seal.

Is the boot flexible enough to support the yoke being closer to the boot?

Please share the photo of your rear seal and yoke with the shop before they start cutting to get their thoughts.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/09/21 01:54 AM

Marc, good pickup on the difference in yokes.
Here's how Denny's Driveshaft wants the shaft measured.
https://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/img/File/how_to_measure_diagrams/a.html
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/09/21 02:05 PM

Knoxville driveline said push yoke in, pull out 1", measure from center of rear bearing cap to center point of yoke where center of front bearing cap would be. The more I thought about all my previous measurements I called this morning and had them add 1/4" to make it a measurement of 49 5/8" which will bring the difference to 2 3/4" . The outer part of seal is very pliable. From the end of output shaft its 1/4" to the end of the seal. Picture of seal which i think is pretty common amongst tremecs.

[Linked Image]

I was able to talk my wife into helping me bleed everything and it went well. Cushion for the csc has to be between 1/8" and 3/8", after measuring everything i was right at a 1/4" cushion. Just for noting it the wilwood master cylinder has a bore of 0.750" and stroke of 1.400". The concentric slave cylinder has .910" total available travel minus the cushion so that should put me at around 0.660" total travel , silver sport states that most clutches release within 1/2" of travel so we will say my number is around 5/8". Looking through the inspection hole I feel I'm getting the total travel needed.

Going through the silver sport "engine off test sheet" I feel everything is good to go. Once I get my headers and driveshaft I'll move on to the "engine on test sheet". I will say with me being a first timer on the manual swap that their sheets have everything covered for the most part. Here is all their different manuals for everything they have.

https://shiftsst.com/installation-manuals

Marc's website has been invaluable for referencing lots of things also.

https://garage-scene.com/wp/t5-into-ag-body/

What silver sport lacks Marc and Bob's knowledge make up for it when it comes to the manual swap.
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/09/21 04:42 PM

Every day, you are a little bit closer; keep up the good work. I am glad Bob and I were able to help you along the way.

You can sort of test the clutch disengagement by having someone depress the clutch pedal when in gear and see if you can turn the tailshaft. A yoke would help, but you could wait until you get your driveshaft and use it to see if the tailshaft rotates. The yoke you pictured, looked like a TH400/Super T10 style yoke.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/10/21 01:46 AM

Driveshaft or headers were not done today like I was told they would be so another day goes by. I cut and rounded off the tab on the column that the linkage attaches to. Also pulled the dash apart and removed the pointer and sprayed the gear indicator plate low gloss black.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/10/21 02:41 AM

Looks fantastic!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/10/21 01:32 PM

One thing I didnt put in detail is where the shifter falls into place. When you remove the original shifter you have 2 riv-nuts, the tkx shifter is dead between them. To center the shifter in the hole of the console I had to move the console forward 2 1/2". You are limited on where to place the hole in the console top plate because of where the automatic shifter hole is already cut. Here is a picture of a Monte Carlo floor that i stole from the internet. The orange dots represent where my new holes are to mount the back of the console, the white circled holes are the original holes, and the red measurements were already on the stock photo.
[Linked Image]

You can see the difference in these 2 photos where my gauge pod sits, before and after. I actually feel like my gauges and armrest are in a better position now.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

For the front mount I cut the front bracket off the old shifter, manipulated the legs that originally bolted to the 2 rivnuts and now it is mounted in by the front bolts on the dust boot that is pictured in a couple post up. Then I clearanced the plastic and metal for the shifter boot and everything just bolts right in. I will try to remember to get a picture when I pull the top plate.

Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/14/21 02:21 AM

Not much to update other than I have all my pieces, probably be Sunday or Monday and the car will be on the road as long as no issues. I did put the car in 1st gear and had my wife push clutch in, able to spin the drive shaft so thats good. Not sure if it matters but the front u joint is a 1330 and the slip yoke is a 31 spline, new joint in the rear but they its same as oem. 49 5/8" center joint to center joint for driveshaft length. Now I have right At 3/4 " from dust seal.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/14/21 03:43 AM

Hmmmmm. Today Fri, Sun is not that far away. Good to see the new shaft wasn't an eternity.

I may have mentioned earlier but you can drill a 5/8" hole in the bottom of the bell that aligns with the face of the flywheel, Push the clutch pedal to the floor and check with a .035" feeler gauge 10" long and check disc clearance that way.
Driving the car and shifting will be the final test to see if you have enough disengagement.

Be nice to the clutch for the first 500 miles, don't over heat it. They unusually require a break in period. And during that period the disc will lose a little thickness which effects the clearance.
With mechanical clutch linkage pedal free play at the top of the pedal stroke is your wear indicator, increased free play mean disc is thinner. This doesn't work as well with hydraulics, it becomes more about feel, engagement point.

Well done, absolutely necessary to black out that auto shift pattern at the speedo.

Console 2 1/2" forward.
Shifter location for-aft is one of those positions dependent upon a lot of variable. My shifter is 2" reward of your's and I sit probably closer at 5-9 tall, and getting shorter. I drive my auto trans cars with the seat way to the rear, the 86 I drive more up on the wheel, mostly to have excellent clutch pedal feel.

I would think this holds true for the new TKX, it's sibling, T56, have a hands off rule. When not shifting there is no reason to have your hand rapped around the knob and playing with it. Because it is a rail system any movement or pressure on the shifter can cause rail movement. This in turn puts pressure on the fork sleeves that should be sitting in neutral land, but instead are pushing on the synchro. The T56 sleeves where plastic, since an upgrade was brass or bronze, but both suffer from being a shifte/fil. I would also thing the TKX now has a better idea for the sleeves being you can beat on it with 7K flat out shifts.

Point was don't allow the shifter to become home for your right hand, Tremec and Rockland Standard made a point of that.

Oh, by the way that is some nice carpet you have there!
bOB
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/14/21 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by mmc427ss
Be nice to the clutch for the first 500 miles, don't over heat it. They unusually require a break in period. And during that period the disc will lose a little thickness which effects the clearance.
With mechanical clutch linkage pedal free play at the top of the pedal stroke is your wear indicator, increased free play mean disc is thinner. This doesn't work as well with hydraulics, it becomes more about feel, engagement point.

When the disc wears, the freeplay decreases; the fingers get closer to the release bearing. Does that mean the trans needs to come out periodically to reshim the release bearing?


Brent, we are impatiently awaiting your review of the first drive!
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/14/21 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by T5montecarlo
Looks fantastic!


I have to second that!! Absolutely beautiful work and outcome! I'm sure it will drive as good as it looks!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/15/21 01:40 AM

Well got 80 miles on the car today. Wow, definitely like a new car and it really brings the 305 to life. There is no way someone could explain how much it changes the character of the car. Way more fun now!!!!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/15/21 03:29 AM

Awesome!!!
80 miles, that's show a lot of confidence in the build.

Yep, like a whole different car.
ENJOY!
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/15/21 12:09 PM

I can see that smile from here!
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/15/21 12:36 PM

Concerning clutch wear and readjustment using a hydraulic throwout bearing he talks about it at around 6:50 minute mark in this video.

https://youtu.be/qPo-pqDep5g
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/16/21 03:47 PM

Nice! Glad to hear it's out and about. I concur with the personality change, it's massive.

How many days total to do the swap?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/16/21 10:36 PM

Took me i think about 2.5 weeks, I've had a big project at work (its done now)so I've been putting in 60-70 hrs./week so that limited my time on it then I had to wait on my driveshaft and headers. If a person had everything sitting there i think it could be done easily in 3-4 days.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/17/21 12:13 PM

Mine took 20 days and I thought that was pretty fast. Nice work on the plan and the execution.

I bet you find any excuse you can to drive the car now for a while...
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/17/21 06:46 PM

Lance, I've owned a few manuals through the years but never worked on them, I started this project not even knowing how a pressure plate worked, true story. I really like the Silver Sport setup, I was able to pick and choose what I wanted and what I didnt want and they gave me options and explained different things. Their instructions were layed out really well and I was glad they had them so I could look through them and plan ahead. What few details were not in there I could find on Marc's t5 site and as always Bob was a goldmine of info and also brought some things to my attention.

Drove the car the first day and its been nothing but rain since thanks to this tropical depression, but I do go out and sit in it every couple of hours and shift through the gears.

Also I need to add that the Idle problem and my voltage issue is gone now. I hope everyone remembers this was the easy fix for it. Only cost me about $5400.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/17/21 07:53 PM

So here is a break down of the cost:

TKX transmission $2795
Spicer 6041x slip yoke $100
Rubber isolator transmission mount $9
SN17 Gm speedometer cable adaptor $26
21 tooth red speedometer gear $18
backup light pig tail $20
57080 needle bearing $14
Trans to bellhousing hardware $8
Rubber isolator to crossmember hardware $5
Rubber Isolator to transmission hardware $5
Billet steel flywheel 153 tooth external balance $300
Flywheel to crank bolts $17
10.5" clutch set $260
Pressure plate bolt set $17
G body hydraulic clutch actuator system $649
G body gm pedal conversion kit $200
3 quarts transmission fluid $18
High temp fluid dot4 for master cylinder $24
Rubber shifter boot with metal ring $28
C5 corvette leather shifter boot $58
Hardware to remount crossmember to frame $5
Sikky 8" shifter rod $40
Metal Bellhousing dust cover $20
Driveshaft shortened with new joints and balanced $180
Steel clutch alignment tool $50

A few more parts that you will need that Bob helped me out on while going through his inventory. Thank you Bob!

403 153t bellhousing
Clutch pedal safety start switch
Black shifter ball
Reverse light pigtail from column plug to transmission

Another cost that some will have is for a crossmember. I was able to slide my g-force 2004r crossmember forward and drill new holes in the frame. To get the angle right I used a 1/4" spacer between the crossmember and rubber isolator.

$4861 and throw in another $500 for tax and shipping for a total of $5361 which I think is pretty good for the project. Definitely not cheap but thats real world cost. I'm sure I'm missing some things that I will add as I remember and if anyone has questions about part numbers I'll be glad to give them.


Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/17/21 08:31 PM

This is still one of the best solutions for an idle issue I've seen!

Glad you are enjoying it, I'm adding this to the list of things I'd love to do if I ever have the opportunity, and I think the tkx would be the route I would go...
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/18/21 01:21 AM

Brent you need to add in 0 bucks an hour for your labor. That something we all take for granted. Thankfully it's that labor of love that's one of the rewards, doing it your self.
Again, welcome to the MMC.

At a car show last weekend i was approached, nope, not for sale, yet. Wow, what would that number be? At a dollar an hour, need to get 20K for labor. And at 10 cents on the dollar return for all the parts, another 7K. Gotta love playing with cars.

Don't send that rain here. I spent a week playing golf in Lenoir, TN and they had some really, really nice back roads for a cruise, at speed. Smokey mountains in your backyard. Tell the weatherperson you need to drive that car to break it in, two nice weeks would be good.
Bob
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/18/21 02:08 PM

I cant remember if I touched on it in this thread but I ended up adding idle bypass air to the ccc and thats all it needed and it cleared up all my issues with the carb leaning out during idle. At this point I've done quite a bit of tuning and feel that I'm pretty close on the carb. Also the smaller pulley on the alternator helped with the power issues at idle when running everything. But the whole time the manual would have solved it all, lol.
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/18/21 02:36 PM

Brent - Meant to ask you earlier - how much smaller is the current pulley (model etc?)
thanks,
Gordon
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/18/21 03:03 PM

Gordon, hope you are doing well, any luck on getting the cam changed on your car? I will have to look at my notes on the oem pulley size bit here is the pulley I purchased. If I remember correctly the oem is a 5 rib and this is a 6 rib 1 3/4". I aligned the belt and tightened like normal and everything works fine.

https://marchperformance.com/aluminum-alternator-serpentine-pulley-110-08.html

Here is a picture of the pulley compared to oem.

[Linked Image]

Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/18/21 08:33 PM

Brent, are you going to put the original pulley back on since the idle speed will now remain a constant that you control?
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/18/21 10:18 PM

Probably give it a try and see what happens.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 08/20/21 03:19 PM

Nothing but rain here for the last few days, got some clear skies and put another 20 miles on it last night. It sure is a lot more fun to drive now and with my engine combination that Kevin (Badss) dialed in on my 305 the trans really makes it shine as far as fun factor.

My ac compressor has not been kicking off and air was only coming out at around 50°so I did a little testing and I went through the flow chart in my gm manual. Said that I was over charged or a restriction in orfice tube. I had some extra cans of 134 so just to do it I discharged the system, put the vacuum pump (loaner from parts store) on for 30 minutes and sucked it down to around 29" vacuum. Let it sit for an hour needle didnt move. Weighed in 2.6 lbs (80% of r12 charge) of 134a. Got the charge in and compressor was still not kicking off low side stayed at 40 psi and high side was at 275 psi, definitely high. Outside temp was in the low 80's. Temp coming out of vent was around 45°. Ac controls blower on high ac selector set to normal. Fans were in failsafe mode so they were set to high speed. Im really not sure when this started I did notice temp was not up to par, didn't notice the compressor didnt kick off until Bob started digging into his system and I realized I hadn't heard it kicking off.

Hopefully getting close to cooler weather so I will probably ride it out for a while and do a upgrade come next spring. Parallel flow condenser, barrier hoses, variable orfice tube, new accumulator/drier, and maybe look at other compressor options. After my latest transmission upgrade I dont think my wife would be too thrilled if I said I was going to throw another $800-$1000 on my cars ac. She never really says anything but im not willing to push my luck, lol.

A few projects that I do have coming that I have all the parts for is build a dual intake air filter, I have a dui distributor tuned for my engine combo and a Bob built non ccc quadrajet that im going to give a try. For the rest of nice weather im probably just going to drive and enjoy. I still have full plans to dyno the 305 once the cold gets here and see what I can get out of the little 305 just too have a number.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/21/21 01:06 PM

At a cars and coffee cruise in at downtown Lenior City this morning.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/21/21 02:57 PM

A little video of my hooker exhaust with the tkx, im not really getting on it maybe running it up to 3500-4000 r.p.m.

https://youtube.com/shorts/msBz6P668cU?feature=share
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/21/21 03:36 PM

Sounds great!

How does it sound at idle?
Posted By: CM1SCW

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/21/21 08:40 PM

Sorry I missed you I was in Oak Ridge at cars for canines car show. I plan on being at Napa know how auto fest Sept 4 at foothills mall may see you there. Glad you are enjoying your 5 speed.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/23/21 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by T5montecarlo
Sounds great!

How does it sound at idle?


I think its got a great idle, video really doesn't do it justice. Of course I'm not one to like a real loud car.

https://youtu.be/68evkfpB7LQ

Originally Posted by CM1SCW
Sorry I missed you I was in Oak Ridge at cars for canines car show. I plan on being at Napa know how auto fest Sept 4 at foothills mall may see you there. Glad you are enjoying your 5 speed.


Not a real big crowd at cars in coffee, I almost went to the cars and canines but I wasn't sure how many would be there. Looks like it had a good crowd.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/23/21 12:42 AM

I also need to add that im at 260 miles now, me and my wife have took 2 pretty good back road trips the last 2 evenings. The car sure is a lot more fun in the twisties and now I'm a little past half way on break in.
Posted By: CM1SCW

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/23/21 10:21 AM

Yeah, there was well over 100 cars and a good crowd of people. Large variety of vehicles.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/25/21 06:09 PM

Just too start figuring and planning what is everyone's experience with different rearends? It will more than likely be January or February before I can even think of spending the money but planning never hurt anything. I will actually start a new thread on this in drivetrain section as it won't be lost in my build thread and hopefully more eyes will see it.

http://www.montecarloss.com/communi...flat&Number=1071807&#Post1071807
Posted By: AkronAero

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/25/21 07:49 PM

Brent - you are assuming we are not all hanging on each of your entries? Lost indeed!

I'm running a 383 with AFRs and getting 535 HP / 490 FtLb at the flex plate and have a significantly upgraded 200-4R (Janis Transmission).
I discussed rear options for a one time upgrade with Henderson Driveline & Axle - like Janis they are very much used by serious/pros.
He put in a 3" DOM drive shaft w/ 1350 & 3R non-greaseable Spicer U-joints. They talked me down from 3.5" or aluminum.
I asked about 12 bolt or 9" but they strongly advised sticking with the 10 bolt case for cost and time.
Nice because they got parts in advance and I was able to drive in for the day and wait.
Put in a 3.73:1 Eaton - Detroit Truetrac and Moser 28 spline axles. New bearings and seals too.
Unless I am running super stickies on the track regularly, they say this is more than enough.
I'm not used to folks talking me out of spending money - So many good ideas on this site...?

BTW - Thanks for asking about updates. Got the triangulated chassis brace (SC&C) and new front antisway bar (1-3/8" QA1 hollow) installed along with a new heater core and evaporator coil. The Comp Cam for the 383 which Kevin (BadSS - He's always volunteering help!) modeled/speced is in and the engine is back in place. Expect a very minor loss in high end HP. Lots more low end performance and with significant inc in vacuum (Kevin's est from 5 to 13+) so the vacuum pump is now gone too. Should make for a much more streetable ride. Wife is more supportive as this will make the ride much quieter so she can come along and monitor me??? Weak justification, yes, but everything helps. Finishing replumbing and prep for break-in. Been a long 9 months of purgatory with labor issues in the shop. I do what I can to help, but you are not here to do the heavy lifting so its slow.....

Thanks and keep up the posts....
Gordon
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 08/25/21 10:50 PM

First off Janis does good work as far as I've heard, one of my friends is a grand national guy and they all swear by Janis when it comes to the 200-4r.

Interesting that is your setup, my original plans were to stick with the 10 bolt, use the Detroit truetrac, stick with my current gm 3.73 ring gear and pinion gear, 28 spline axles, differential cover with main cap jacking bolts and weld up the axle tubes to the center section. As with most things the more I searched it seemed that approach was frowned upon due to main cap movement and teeth not being strong enough on ring gear and pinion. Of course that is reasearching on google and other forums and there is no telling what they were trying to do and you are hearing this from professionals so I will take that as an option. To add to the above I have 1330 and 3r non greasable Spicer u joints. Only the 1330 on output shaft and 3r at the rearend but using stock driveshaft just to get by at the moment.

Gordon, im glad your getting close to having your car back on the road with the upgrades it will be much more enjoyable. Any time you can find a way to justify parts in some way with your wife its a good thing. I've said many times on here that my wife has never really said anything about the money I spend but I know where the line is. If I were close to you or any other member I would be glad to help even though a lot of the times im learning as I go as seen on this forum.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 09/05/21 09:05 PM

Took the car for a long ride today, the plan was to head up over the dragon at deals gap (318 corners, 11 miles). Its about 30 minutes away from my house, once I headed up 129s it was obvious that it was just to crowded and not what I planned so I cut off 129 and headed across the foothills parkway towards the smoky mountains. Hardly any traffic, about 15 degrees cooler, plenty of turns for some spirited driving , and nice views .
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's 305 build and tkx 5 speed! - 09/21/21 05:24 PM

I may regret my decision down the road but I ran across a 350 roller block for a good deal that im dropping off at machine shop to get checked today so as of now the rearend is put on hold and my new winter project will be building another engine.

Plan is to build a 396 sbc, it should make for a interesting combo and the 396 ss just has a nice ring to it. Original plan was either a 383 or 400 or above sbc. Building a 400 gets up there quite a bit in price and it seems like everyone goes the 383 route. After talking to Kevin he mentioned the 396 option and I liked it. To squeeze it in a stock block it will take a certain combo of parts but it won't need anymore clearance than a 383.

The plan as of now is 3.875" stroke crank with 2.000" rod journals, callie compstar h beam rods. Going with that combination you should not have to clearance any more than a 3.750 rod. Looking for idle to 5500 rpm power, should be a fun little package. Lots of planning to do and as with with most stuff the parts are going to take some time to get.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/23/21 10:49 PM

I thought that you might like the idea of going with a "Chevy sized" cubic inch engine!! grin

Now, the question is will you keep it in sleeper mode OR badge it?
[Linked Image]

Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/26/21 01:11 AM

Probably not going to do any emblems, maybe keep it looking stock and do something subtle with the air cleaner decal.
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/28/21 01:17 AM

Here is a list of parts that Kevin helped me come up with that I plan to use. Just the rotating assembly is all that is included this far, haven't decided on rings yet. A rough estimate should be around $2500 including the rings. It does not include machine work.


EngineQuest RSH350 1986 and Newer S/B Chevy Rear Main Seal Conversion.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/EngineQuest-RSH350-1986-and-Newer-S-B-Chevy-Rear-Main-Seal-Conversion,32393.html

EngineQuest AT350 Small Block Chevy Rear Main Alignment Tool
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/EngineQuest-AT350-Small-Block-Chevy-Rear-Main-Alignment-Tool,32419.html

ARP 134-5401 - ARP Main Stud Kits
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-5401

Clevite Engine Parts MS-909H - Clevite H-Series Main Bearings
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-ms909h

Clevite Engine Parts CB-745HN - Clevite H-Series Rod Bearings
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cle-cb745hn

4-350-3875-6000-20LW SCAT SBC F43 LIGHTWEIGHT 4340 FORGED STEEL CRANKSHAFT
https://www.cnc-motorsports.com/4-3...weight-4340-forged-steel-crankshaft.html

Callies Performance CSA6000CS2A2AH - Callies Compstar Connecting Rods
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cpi-a6000cs2a2ah

DSS Racing 8153-4030 - D.S.S. SX-Series Forged Pistons
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dms-8153-4030


Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/28/21 04:14 AM

Not familiar with that rear main seal conversion. The seal kit's alignment tool i saw was alum, that one is plastic. Curious how all that comes together, where's the seal?
It's been years since shopping for those hard parts so maybe things have changed. Why not just put a one piece crank in and save the money on the kit. All the forged stuff has gone up in price, hopefully the quality has moved the same way.
16cc dish on that piston, are you buying another set of heads? looking close to 11:1 at .00 deck height.
Kevin at what point does compression height become an oil ring problem? Those pistons will be 1.062" with a 6" rod. I know on my 4" stroke compression height is 1.020" with a 6" rod and i cringed when the oil rings went on. A special support is used when the oil ring gets into the piston pin area. I always thought that was why this engine uses a little more oil than it should.

New block has mechanical fuel pump location?
Bob
Posted By: T5montecarlo

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/28/21 01:07 PM

Eagle makes a 1-piece rear main seal for a 350 and 3.875 stroke.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp-435338756000

Have you compared building to buying a crate engine?
https://blueprintengines.com/produc...tyle-longblock-aluminum-heads-roller-cam
Posted By: 88ssBrent

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/28/21 07:43 PM

I assume they changed the tool for a easier and cheaper product to produce. I couldn't find the aluminum one but then again I didnt search real hard, right now this is all my "draft". Here is an older article using this exact conversion. Also it seems to be well thought of by many on the speedtalk forum.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/rear-seal-adapter-for-chevy-small-blocks/amp#aoh=16328423002776&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

The only crank made that is made with 3.875 stroke and 2.000" rod journals is a 2 piece. It seems to be a hard package to squeeze in and the smaller rod journal gives you an extra .100" due to the rod body being smaller. Here is a quote off a thread on yellowbullet forum concerning the clearance.

"the compstar H beam rod will clear 3.875 stroke in a 350 block. You would be even better with a 2.00 rod journal and the compstar small journal rod which has a smaller outside dimension than the std large journal rod. The standard stroke notch I do for a 3.750 eagle H beam rod clears the 3.875 compstar large journal rod with no additional work. U will hit water with 3.875 and a regular eagle or scat rod."

Concerning the price of forged stuff its went up a lot in the last year. The gm ht383 shortblock has went up from $3000 to $4200 in just 2 years. Ive seen the blueprint 396 but I have to go with their cam and other components I would not want. This is going to be a build where over time I can add power as I feel I need more by adding better heads and intake.

I will use my heads, roller rockers, intake, and other components from the 305. With the 56cc tfs heads using a fel pro 1044 (4.200" bore, .051" compressed) and the piston .005" in the hole I should be around 10.6:1, once I go to 64cc heads using a cometic c5246-036 (4.100" bore, .036" compressed) I will be around 10.2:1. If the tfs heads really flow the numbers they say it should be close to 500 ft/lbs around 4200r.p.m. and close to 460 h.p. at 5600 r.p.m. while still maintaining 16.5" vacuum.

The block does not have fuel pump provisions so that is another issue im working on now and reading up on. Kevin has helped me on gathering all the data and getting a parts list together. Once again this is just my rough draft so no telling where this might end up when all said and done.
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/29/21 01:55 AM

The dished 16cc piston is a bit of a compromise because as Brent said he's considering the possibility of moving to a different set of 64cc heads at a later date. Running this particular piston puts the compression a little on the high side with the small chamber heads and a little on the low side of what I'd consider "optimal" with a set of 64cc heads.  However, the differences between the two compression ratios and “optimal” is minimal when using 93-octane gas.

Yep, Bob, I understand your concern about the oil rings on the long stroke, long rod combos.  I had serious reservations at one time myself and did my best to stay away from support rails when possible until relatively recently.  In fact the 406 engine before last I built for my SS used 5.7 rods due in part to my apprehension on using support rails and to get a thick top and second ring land for the amount of nitrous I planned on using.

I’ve seen comments from well-known engine builders that have said they’ve had no issues regarding support rails – as long as they’re the right ones (you have to check to make sure they put the right rails in the right box). Also, the last few engines I’ve built used rail supports and no one has reported any oil consumption issues.  So, I suspect that if you’re seeing a little higher than normal oil consumption that it probably has little if anything to do with the support rails.

Now, I’ve always been partial to the Napier second rings for their improved oil control over other type second rings (whether using support rails or not). They are a required build criteria for me as opposed to using a different type 2nd ring, so that may be a factor as nothing I've built ever had any oil control issues.

The two ring sets I recommended to Brent both utilize a barrel faced Moly top ring and a Napier second ring.  I’ve used the same series Mahle rings in builds before, but the other set, Hasting rings, look to be better on paper.  I’ve never used Hasting rings, but from what I understand they supply rings to Wiseco and JE for them to put in their boxes. So I asked Brent to consult with his machinist (who is a well known engine builder in his area) to see if he had used and could recommend the Hasting rings over the Mahle.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 09/30/21 04:27 AM

Never gave the 2.00" verses 2.100" crank journal a thought, but a good idea. That would reduced clearancing .050" on each side of the block. There was only one crank available at 4" back in the day, Eagle. at 2.1" Clearancing for that swing is one of the reasons i have a Dart block. Even then one or two of the oil pan bolt holes are very close to the clearancing.
As with any longer stroke SBC rod to cam clearance also becomes a problem. The base circle of the cam usually is effected. With the 2.00" and 3.875 stroke what base circle are you stuck with? The cam from the 305 is that base circle reduced? My 4" stroke requires a toothpick cam, .850" base, good thing it's billet. Had a hard time getting a cam ground that small, only Comp would do it.

So you will be sacrificing quench for compression with the 56 heads?
Do you use this compression calculator or is there one better?
http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/01/21 01:43 AM

Below is a chart from Comp Cams that show the differences in the standard/theoretical base circle based on differences in lift and the base circle if you request a small base circle. Now you can get them to cut just about anything on a .900 base circle, but these CompStar rods even in the 2.100 journals have a lot more clearance than most "stroker rods". This is especially so at the block (bottom of the rod bolt pad) - even more when going with the CompStar 2.000 journals.

Cam lobe for the 396 will be in the .360 range - one reason because it will keep the typical "small base circle" at 1.020, which should give ample clearance with the CompStar 2.000 rods
[Linked Image]

Here's the write up that contains the chart.
https://www.cpgnation.com/all-about-that-base-circle/

When I model an engine, the simulation calculates the static compression ratio, which uses the typical entry data. However, if I'm unable to use the simulation, I use the calculator at Diamond Racing. It gives more data and generates a little more precise ratio if you know the top ring land height - if not the Wallace calculator is just as good
https://diamondracing.net/p-10-compression-calculator.html

I know people can get excited over "squish". However, while I typically like to get it in the .040" - 045" range with steel rods and run as thin a gasket as possible, a .051" compressed gasket and anything under .060" will not be problematic - especially when naturally aspirated. Plus, I'd rather have a little too much than not enough - lol.
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/02/21 07:44 PM

The only thing I wonder about regarding a small base circle stems from the fact that the cam is basically a cylindrical (+/-) torsional spring. Think of it as a lumpy sway bar that's driven at one end. The smaller the base circle diameter, the more compliant the spring, and the lower its fundamental torsional resonant frequency. Should this frequency enter the cam's rotational speed at or near top engine rpm, it could wreak havoc with valve events. Below this frequency, high torsional compliance would tend to manifest as a slight shortening of duration, especially for lobes near the back end of the block, farthest the cam gear. Ditto all this for the distributor, btw - in fact, timing jitter at high rpm may be a good sign that the cam is misbehaving.

One can always assume that Comp Cams wouldn't sell a cam with this kind of behavior, but from past experience with many hotrodding vendors, the vast majority of whom tend to be avid technicians rather than engineers, I wouldn't make that assumption. - HTH.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/04/21 01:04 AM

Unfortunately 15 years ago rods with offset big end, cranks with small rod journal and a 4" stroke into an engine design for a 3" stroke were not readily available. To get .050" rod to cam clearance that toothpick of a cam was required. An option would have been to use the tall deck Dart block but that need a lot of very specific parts to put it together. The price and complication of a tall deck 427 SBC made my second choice for a build an LS7 at that time. The crate price of a dry sump LS7 back then forced the building of an old school SBC 427" truck engine. Tons of low end torque and lower rpm limits. And you are right, the VERY small cam base circle was the scary part. Even a 383 with a large cam normally needs a very small base cam.

Fortunately due to a large cubic inch, 427, a mild cam could be used, only .570" and 240 at .050", E and I are different but close enough to those numbers. That cam falls on it's face at just shy of 6K and the engine never really need to buzz that high. Good for it, the cam.

Valve springs and retainer were changed out a few years to beehive and tool steel which reduced weight drastically. Springs are PSI LS1511 which are a good match for the cam and AFR heads.
Sure would be cool to put that engine's cam/valvetrain on a Smokey's "Smoketron", but that will never happen.

Believe me if, when, that cam comes out will be curious to see how it held up. Just over 25k on the build of not easy miles.
Bob
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/04/21 07:44 AM

I ran a solid roller .940 base circle with 212lb seat pressure (565lb over the nose) in my last 406 for about 5 years of daily driver use and then an addition 5 years or so of weekend use. Ran 1.6 rockers with 0.640 net lift and I had over 200 grudge races with it shifting at 6800 rpm - many more test and tunes and lots of street play. I would go months before checking the lash and can't remember a single time when I HAD to make an adjustment. Built a number of engines with .900 cams just to be sure there would be no clearance problems and no one has had issues.

The late, great Joe Sherman said in one of his posts about .900 base circle cams - " I run 285 on the seat, and 810 open (at 875 lift on the intake) In five years, the springs have not lost any pressure- lash never changes , and we rev it 8500 twice on every run- NO PROBLEMS at all."

Now, I don't think anyone would argue best practice is to go with the largest base circle that will clear (that's what I did with my last and current build). However, if drag racers running big spring pressures and running high RPMs aren't having issues and based on my own experiences, I wouldn't sweat running something as small as Bob is when using hydraulic roller spring pressures.
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/07/21 08:31 PM

Hi BadSS,

Great news! I didn't say a small base-circle cam would necessarily cause problems, but simply that it was more prone to do so than its larger-base-circle cousin.

All's well that ends well.

Best,
MAP
Posted By: BadSS

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/09/21 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by MAP
Hi BadSS,

Great news! I didn't say a small base-circle cam would necessarily cause problems, but simply that it was more prone to do so than its larger-base-circle cousin.

All's well that ends well.

Best,
MAP


No, you brought up a valid point about the small base circle cam and I certainly do not disagree with any of the points you made. In this case, bigger is better - or at least the biggest you can run the better - lol
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/12/21 08:42 PM

Hi BadSS - Just thinking that a roller cam may behave very differently from flat-tappet cam. A roller side-loads the cam lobe (= exerts a disruptive torque) as the roller rides up and down the side ramps. A flat tappet only loads the cam as a function of changing friction. Somewhere I'm sure I've got a book (Blevins?) that I can look up to quickly calculate the torsional resonance... 8,500 rpm = 4,250 cam rpm, and with 16 lobes (17 counting the fuel pump lobe,) with 34 total side ramps, we are exciting the cam at roughly 1.3kHz. I need to see how close that is to torsional resonance.

BUT anyway before I go off the deep end - Brent, given BadSS's good experience, I see no cause for alarm, thankfully.
Posted By: Travis Jones

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/14/21 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by MAP
A roller side-loads the cam lobe (= exerts a disruptive torque) as the roller rides up and down the side ramps. A flat tappet only loads the cam as a function of changing friction.


I'm sorry I don't agree with your assertion here. First a flat tappet rides up and down side ramps just like a roller does, if it doesn't it will trash the lifter. The difference is that the roller lifter uses only the roller to spin, where as the body of the flat tappet lifter rotates because of the offset convex surface ground into the lifter and angle of the lobe on the camshaft.

The force load on the cam is directly proportional to the weight of the valvetrain components and spring pressures and RPM... F=MA, but with a flat tappet amplifying frictional losses when spun by the crankshaft. Both have to act as lever and fulcrum is in the same spot. For a cam with the same ramp profile and valvetrain component weights, the forces exerted by the valvetrain are the same, but the torque to turn would be higher because of the higher friction flat tappet actuation resulting in higher torsional stress within the camshaft.
Posted By: MAP

Re: 88ssBrent's Build! - 10/14/21 07:58 PM

Hi Travis,

The physics you cite is incomplete and partially wrong. Please see my forum profile for my background.

The very short description I gave two posts back was even more incomplete - sorry about that, but I hit just the two very top points for the sake of brevity.

Pictures would help immensely here, and even better if the pictures could evolve in real-time along with a verbal explanation, but I don't do Youtube.

Bottom line is that some forces, and therefore some moments, are not the same. Do a FBD for the lobe with the roller and the flat tappet and compare. Don't forget to apply appropriate boundary conditions. Also, don't forget that for the same valve lift profile, the cam lobes for a roller and a flat tappet are completely different. The roller has steeper ramps and a rounder, broader nose; these alone would indicate different forcing functions acting on the cam, but the differences between the two cam types continue.
________________________

Brent, I take full responsibility for the rabbit trail here - I apologize - feel safe to ignore it and just go by BadSS's posts.

Best,
MAP

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