MonteCarloSS.com

T56 C'mon now

Posted By: Bealzybub

T56 C'mon now - 01/11/17 02:53 AM

Hello fellers. I was just wondering if anyone knew anything about which one I need (T56) or if its even a good idea. Seems I read they'd take 600 foot pounds of torque. I have an 85 SS with the ford 9" already in, 3" dual exhaust and an aluminum 427 small block on the way. I believe it'll have enough power to continue to push it through the wind and it seems like I saw a .53 final gear on that T56, one of em. They were a little different geared for different applications.

Thanx in advance !!!!!!
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/11/17 05:02 PM

You'd want an "LT1" T56 to mate up to your Gen-I SBC. They are rated at 400 ft-lbs in stock form, IIRC. They can be built to handle more, of course. I think the stock 6th gear is 0.50:1. If you need a clutch pedal setup, check out my link in my signature.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/12/17 01:51 AM

I beleive the 93 f body t56 is rated for less tq, 350 vs 450 ft lbs IIRC. The 93 T56 has differnt gear ratios also.

If you put the t56 in your car, order one of Bernies pedals. Made my car so much easier and enjoyable to drive.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/13/17 10:39 PM

If you have an "aluminum 427 small block on the way" I would go the new route and install a Magnum T56, good for mega torque, can be used with either electric or mechanical speedo, better shifting, choice of ratios. The only down side would be cost of the install, but you only buy once.

Buying a used T56 is a crap shoot, some are good condition right out of the box, some need to be opened up and have parts put in. Several of us have had to put new parts in a T56. No matter what route you go for a trans you still have to buy the rest of the parts to install it.
There is really no cheap route to doing a T56 in a G-body, If you decide to go the race ready way you can spend 5K, or more.

Bought my T56 15 years ago brand new, 2K delivered to the front door. My wife struggled to drag it into the house. I struggled to explain what it was, and how much I spent. For the past 8 years that trans has been living behind a Dart 427 SBC, a 100 passes at the track, 12K miles on the street and it's still performs well. BUT, I don't abuse it, don't flat shift it at 5K, make sure it warmed up, I respect it for what it is. It's a used, 400 rated trans, with 15 year old technology.

As far as available ratios go in a T56.
Wide ratio 1st to 4th, 2.96 1st gear.
Close ratio has a 2.66 1st gear.

Various combo of 5th and 6th gears but most used donors will have the .50 6th. I prefer the .63 6th gear over the .50 6th. The .63 has a .80 5th which makes the downshift from 6th to 5th sweet, especially at speed. A T56 that has the .63 is a close ratio box from 4th to 6th compared to the .50 6th gear, .63 trans has better high speed manners.
Running 4.11 gears the with wide ratio and .63 6th now, you can drive it in 6th at 40 mph. The 2.97 1st with 4.11s makes for a ton of torque multiplication, you need good tires.
If I was in the market for a new trans a 2.66 with .63 6th would go in, a Transzilla most likely.
http://rsgear.com/products/performance-r...ANZILLA-Magnums
Bob
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/13/17 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
If you have an "aluminum 427 small block on the way" I would go the new route and install a Magnum T56, good for mega torque, can be used with either electric or mechanical speedo, better shifting, choice of ratios. The only down side would be cost of the install, but you only buy once.
Bob



You know that Bob! I have a new one sitting in my shop waiting on my new LSX 454. wink

Mega torque = 700 foot pounds.

This unit will be at it's limits with my engine!

Regards,
Ron Kahley.
Posted By: Onebadbowtie86

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 01:50 AM

I have to agree, if you can afford it just buy a new magnum. I could have almost bought one with the money I have into rebuilding my used t56.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 03:47 AM

Broke the 3/4 keys with only about 4k on the trans behind the old 305. Replaced 3rd gear, 3/4 synchro, steel 3/4 fork, modified 1/2 fork, solid keys went in 1/2 and 3/4 synchro and didn't spent to much to do that repair. Fortunately my labor is free.

I spent a little time researching bellhouings to install a Magnum to various engine. Quick Time, now owned by Holley, has stepped up to the plate and offer a bell to adapt a Magnum T56 to about any engine now. They even offer a bell with a 17 degree fork angle to install into a G with mechanical linkage clutch, RM-6023BP, but is 750 bucks. The Lakewood 15015 shield I use is now discontinued, it was cheap at 450. The QT shields are a nicer unit, lighter, much stronger.
Bob
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 05:20 AM

Yeah I get it about buying something used. So heres an option I was considering. Used T56. I have a friend that rebuilds trannys and he knows how to do it. I mean he does for a living everyday and works for a top notch company. I'm fortunate enough that he might even do it for free if I begged a little but thats not my style. Lets just say I'm sure he can do the rebuild for next to nothing in labor. So for those of you that know, whats the difference between the T56 and the magnum? Is it the case? If so I know what I need to do. If its just heavier internals, that might be an option. Know that I never intended to put an unknown used T56 behind this, it would have gotten rebuilt. So now just to tease. I have the aluminum 427 sbc. Its one of those Australian units. I'm going with 4" stroke, 4.125 bore. Eagle 4340 non twist crank, eagle rods, JE pistons. I've got AFR 220's in the 75cc version. Air gap manifold and I've got a "Carb Shop" carb that started out life as a 750 vacuum secondary and then they did something to it to where it flows 980 cfm now. I'm learning thats probably too much for what I want which is as much torque as low as I can get it. For what that block package is capable of I'm going to keep it conservative, like to have my power brakes work, need something that can sit and idle without loading up, but still fun. Plan on doing a little frame strengthening. Any input that you guys have would be appreciated. I'm building this to run on the street and be able to turn IE getting weight out of the front. I'm putting the battery in the trunk, AC gone, found one of those aluminum core supports that'll go in. Rear end is a new ford 9" trac loc 373.
Posted By: John S

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 03:01 PM

All good information, I bought a used T56 when I converted. The trans lost 2nd gear shortly after I installed it. You never know what your getting... I'm lucky since Rockland Standard gear is not far from me so off the tranny went. Rebuilt to their Transzilla specs @ 850 Lb Ft torque with my choice og gears and cost me about $1400.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 03:16 PM

Originally Posted By: mmc427ss
The QT shields are a nicer unit, lighter, much stronger.
Bob



I have the Quick time SFI unit along with the Mcload RTS clutch assembly for daily driving to the grocery store. All those nice parts in front of a Moser 12 bolt makes me so happy. smile

Only thing I need is another clutch pedal.... I sold mine when I thought to dump the entire idea for the swap.

Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 03:43 PM

Comparing a factory installed T56, LT or LS versions, to a Magnum is like comparing a 7 1/2" rear to a 9". Outside dimensions about the same but the guts are much more substantial. Larger input, output shafts, much better synchros, multiply shifter locations, stronger gears, and other upgrades, designed for 700 lbft. The older T56s were anywhere from 350 to 400-450 rated dependent of 1st gearing. Upgrading an old trans to higher torque rating or better synchros is very expensive.

Don't know what an Australian alum 427 block is, can you enlighten or post a link to the block.
My 427 SBC is a Dart cast iron block, standard deck height, Eagle crank, 6" rods, custom JE pistons for 10:1, AFR 210 heads (76cc), small custom Comp hyd roller, Weiand single plane intake with 800 cfm. It was build as a torque motor, currently runs out of breathe at about 6K.
The BIG problem you run into with my combo is rod to cam clearance. My cam is a .850 base circle in order to get higher lift and duration, it looks like a toothpick. To install a larger cam the rods would need to be changed to a special/expensive rod to add clearance. With 1.6 rockers about .570 lift is the limit.
Before installing the engine rod to cam clearance needs to be checked, minimum of .050" necessary.
This engine idles at 16" vacuum, very mild manners, no rumpy-rump idle, it does exactly what I built it to do, lots of torque down low, but pull strong till the cam gives up.

The Trac-lock in the 9" is an OK unit, just as it wears it doesn't work as well, most will change it out for something better when you put a lot of abuse/power to it.
Bob
Posted By: Keithss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 08:31 PM

Have you looked at the Silver Sport package? It looks like they can provide everything. Not sure how good they are but it sounds OK.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/14/17 08:54 PM

Silver Sport is a spin off from Keisler. Not sure what happened there but is now called Silver Sport. Several years ago Keisler made an effort to produce his own five speed trying to one up Tremec, at some point he filed bankruptcy, now enter Silver Sport.

Silver Sport has a video of an El Camino getting a TKO, they missed a few key elements of the install.
https://shiftsst.com/articles/cat/general-motors/post/g-body-1978-1988/
Bob
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/15/17 03:17 AM

This is the package I got but I upgraded to JE's cause I was changing pistons anyway to accomodate the 75cc chambers. http://www.racingjunk.com/Drag-Racing/18...HEADS-NEW-.html And see MMC mentioned the cam clearance. Not the first time I've heard this and this block says it has "standard deck height and cam location" so it sounds like your issue is gonna be my issue. Interesting that I'm looking for exactly what you build intention was. Wish I would have seen your build sooner so I coulda asked what you would have done differently. MMC427ss what headers/manifolds are you using on that?
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/15/17 03:36 AM

And howbout this huh? That ad should be gone soon lol ........

https://offerupnow.com/item/detail/114102020/monte-carlo-ss-front-clip
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/15/17 05:48 AM

If that's a GM nose that's a great price, if a fiberglass repo I would forget it.
http://www.mikesmontes.com/Front-Bumper-Nose-New-GM_p_370.html

Because I'm located in the wonderful state of PA, emissions testing is mandatory before they can issue an annual safety inspection sticker. When I put my engine together 10 years ago I needed to pass a visual emissions test, all that stuff needed to be in place. For an intake a Weiand 7525 single plane with EGR and 800 cfm Qjet was used. Actually a great intake, flow comparable to the Edel Victor Jr, EGR was nonfunctional from day one, but was visually there.
Exhaust system, an excellent ATR 2 1/2" stainless cat back system was retained from the old engine, modified Hooker 2050 emissions headers now flow into a 3" test pipe that replaced the cat after the first visual inspection. Not what you would call it the optimum setup for a 427 but don't think it hurts the power a lot, on the low end it may even help. Rear wheel was 428/435, not bad for a trunk engine with single exhaust.
More cam and tuned headers/duals are a future project to add another 75 hp, just not a priority currently. The car runs mid 12 s @ 115 on my street tires now, slicks low 12s, fast enough for an old guy.
Bob
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/15/17 06:40 AM

I picked up those parts, thats why the ad will go away. They are genuine gm parts. I got a nose about 18 months ago from mikes and all three of these are the mustard yellow whatever material it is they make em out of. Clarifying on the rear end (maybe glorifying), its a Currie ford disc brake 9". It had a spool when I got it as well as what looked like the Mosier cut to fit axles. Well they werent right so I had Dutchman Motor sports here in town make some axles for it so thats all tightened up. Coleman racing has a great deal on drivelines that take the big ford ujoint. So, you said your motor is ten years old? 10 year old AFR210's ? Were they the same back then?
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/15/17 04:59 PM

Yep heads are 210s race ready, bought in 2004 so they are now 13. I would expect that the newest version of the 210s should flow a little better, they now use a metric valve stem instead of the "old school" 11/16", subtle changes, of course the price is a little higher these days.

Those heads have not been off the engine, yet. About 4 years ago several of the retainer locks were close to total failure, luckily caught that before a valve dropped. Installed new seals and Manley locks, and replaced one of the Crane rockers.
The next year I was thinking it was time to R&R the valvetrain especially after the previous lock problem. Installed PSI beehive springs, tool steel retainers, and the other usual tasks with an R&R. That took a ton of weight out of the valve train, notice a difference, not really, rarely buzz the engine over 5500 on the street, no need. Rev limiter set to 6200, don't even hit that at the track.
All 16 of the old AFR springs were run through the spring checker, none out of spec, hmmm, was the 700 bucks I just spend worth it, a new cam would like it.

Something to remember about these AFRs, 210 and bigger, the intake valve is move away from the exhaust to allow a bigger intake valve. This effects rocker contact on the valve. On the 210s this is a tedious chore to make all 16 "touches" happy. You can only manipulate the pushrods guide plate so much until the rod rubs the head, or exhaust stem contact is lousy. When you step up to bigger AFR heads you need to do offset rockers to get good alignment, haven't done that setup, actually bought the 210s to avoid the hassle of using offsets with 227s.

Limited slip choices are determined by what do I want and what is available. Just replaced the Eaton posi with an Eaton True Trac in the 8 1/2", also went to 4.11. Street driving and drag racing you can't tell the difference, both work well. I've done a little cone killing and intend to do more, the True Trac should help save a few cones.
With a 9" lots of choices, the reason I was negative toward the Traclock was some of the feedback others have had, never owned one. But did install one last year in my son's F150 Dana 44. Looking at it I could see it was a wear item, won't work as good down the road as it does when new.
Lance did a locker with lighter springs, probably the best overall choice.
Bob
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/18/17 12:50 PM

Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Only thing I need is another clutch pedal.... I sold mine when I thought to dump the entire idea for the swap.



Have you seen the new setup that mounts a tilton directly to my bracket? It packages really nicely.
Posted By: 1 Slow SS

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/18/17 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: SickSpeedMonte
Originally Posted By: 1 Slow SS
Only thing I need is another clutch pedal.... I sold mine when I thought to dump the entire idea for the swap.



Have you seen the new setup that mounts a tilton directly to my bracket? It packages really nicely.


No I haven't Bernie, I'm interested to see it though. Once I get my garage done I'll be back at the car again and asking you for another pedal. laugh
Posted By: SickSpeedMonte

Re: T56 C'mon now - 01/19/17 04:00 PM

http://sickspeedmonte.com/Pedal2.htm

Any garage build pics??
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 03/14/17 02:59 AM

Ok So I'm moving along with the project. I got that block, the aluminum 427 SBC. It came with a Eagle crank, 4.00 stroke, Eagle H beam rods, got the AFR 220's And I'm so frickin happy I sold a 83 CL and was able to buy a T56 !!!!!!!! Came with everything and I could use some help here I guess.

It came out of a Camaro and the guy says it will all bolt up with just one adapter piece I need to go on my two piece rear main motor. I got the clutch, pressure plate, slave cylinder, linkage. I'm definitely going to be buying that Sick Speed pedal and bracket assembly. I understand the trans is a little soft for the torque this motor is going to provide but I figured I'd get this whole thing together then rebuild that tranny when it starts giving me issues. Its out of a 96 Camaro.
Posted By: SSLance

Re: T56 C'mon now - 03/14/17 03:06 PM

I believe with the two piece rear main seal block and the 96 Camaro (pull type LT1 style clutch) you'll need one of the high priced one off flywheels. The one piece and two piece rear main seal blocks use completely different flywheels...
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 03/14/17 09:54 PM

That's one of the problems with doing a T56, LT1 or LS, to a two piece seal block, special pricey flywheel necessary. Try McLeod, Centerforce, Ram may also have one for that application. Go billet steel, may not be an alum available for that install, stay away from cheap, cast, a nodular would be OK. I assume your 427 is internally balanced, important info for flywheel purchase. Also a pull type LT1 clutch wouldn't be my choice. The Lt1 and LS input shafts are different lengths so you can't swap bells between them, the LT1 and LS installs use specific parts for each install. Call the clutch/flywheel venders and get feedback from them, use them for an education on your particulars, then buy what you can afford. Be leery of reusing the clutch, a PITA to pull out the T56 because the new engine fried it with a ton of torque and good tires.
Something to think about, a scattershield. Quicktime makes an expensive shield to adapt most any T56 to anything. I run a Lakewood shield and McLeod billet flywheel, two piece seal, the clutch is a 700 ft-lb Cermix disc, a miserable thing which I've adapted to, just don't let anyone else drive it. To much clutch is just as bad as not enough. If you drag race with slicks you need lots of clutch, for the street you can get by with less. Also if the car runs 11.48 a scattershield is required.

Bob
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 03/15/17 02:53 AM

Well I guess I've got parts for sale then :-(
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 03/15/17 03:13 AM

Does this look like the unit? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flywheel-Sbc-t56-/122398345904?hash=item1c7f828ab0:g:~jcAAOSw32lYyHBQ&vxp=mtr
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/10/17 05:43 PM

Ok so I have most of my stuff. The aluminum 427 block is on the bottom in the wooden crate. The rest of the stuff is kinda obvious there. The AFR's are the 75cc 220's and as you can see I have the T56 laying on the floor there. I also got a Holley 870 Avenger. This is taking a little more time than I thought because I suffered a partial bicep distal tendon tear on April 11 of this year but I'm just about ready to get back to work and start making money again. I've got some Scorpion 1.6 full rollers, you can see the girdles there and I'm working on cam and lifters. I got a DUI, rofl, "Davis Unified Ignition" distributor and I've got Ed Ash down in Roseburg Oregon to do the assembly work. Additionally I've got a transmission guy that I've known for decades thats going to install the new hd gear set for me. Believe me when I tell you this is not "annual pipe dream #11", I'm doin this.

So, if anyone will indulge me. The 427 is the 2 piece rear main seal. I'm certainly going to get the clutch pedal setup from Sick Speed. When I got the T56 it came with everything off of a 97 Camaro including the hydraulic slave cylinder. I guess I'm going to have to throw away some parts huh? Given the horsepower this thing is going to make I believe its safe to say I should get a scattershield bellhousing. What I need to know from someone who "REALLY" knows is what flywheel I'm going to need and if there are any modifications other than the gear set that I have to make to that transmission. Can I run an 11" clutch in that?

Is there any resale value in that stock flywheel, pressure plate and stock bellhousing? Thanx in advance.


[img]https://imgflip.com/i/1qnuuu[/img]
Posted By: 86ttop

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/11/17 02:07 AM

mmc427ss is the go to man here on this, listen to him!!
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/11/17 06:08 AM

Leo, thanks for the kind words.

To address the 427 build first, the horse before the cart.
Odd things about building a 427 SBC using the Dart Little M block, other blocks may vary. A good builder should be aware of deviations with that build.
Is your block a Dart or a World Products?

The rear main cap on the Dart block is taller, oil pump drive shaft end play will become excessive because the cap lowers the pump. I run a Melling HV pump, between it and the rear main cap is a Milodon baffle (helps with oil control at the rear seal) which also drops the pump lower. Shaft endplay was over .200". A BBC pump shaft was cut down to achieve .070" endplay. Even after decking or surfacing the heads still ample.

A Milodon stroker pan was used partly because it uses all the oil pan bolts to seal the pan. The Moroso stroker pan omits every other bolt, has maybe 8 or 10 less bolts. At the time my 427 went together there wasn't an acceptable pump pickup due to the pump sitting lower in the pan, the Milodom pickup for their pan was hitting the pan floor. Had to fabricate a pickup to located it parallel and 1/4" off the floor.

Canton and Fel Pro both make a very nice one piece seal pan gasket for a 2 piece seal block, I went with the Canton, it's black, not blue.

Cam to rod clearance is a concern with this build. Choosing the correct connecting rods to allow a stout cam is critical. Today there are a couple rod choices to gain clearance. Eagle CRS6000B3D 6'' rods in my build which limit cam choices. A Comp XR288HR billet roller in the engine has an .850" base circle, it looks like a toothpick, sad. .050" clearance is what is necessary. Crane 1.6 rockers improve the lift somewhat to .560-.570". If I was to pull the engine apart to change cams a set of Callies Ultra XD stroker rods would go in to allow more cam on possible a bigger base circle, big expense.

Pistons are JE with mirrored inverted dome,10 cc, custom compression height (1.020", standard height is 1.00") so I didn't have to deck block to get quench to .045" using a .040" gasket. 10 years ago there was no "stocking" piston available to build the 427, period, a high compression 434, yes. Today JE has more stocking pistons available for this build, but compression ratios are high. If, when, the engine comes apart a clean up of the decks will achieve close to .040".

Have had good luck with the AFR 210 heads for 10 years. But did have retainer locks all but fail on three valves, caught that just in time before dropping valves. Heads are 76CC and static compression is 10.1. Decking the block and surfacing the heads would jump that maybe .2.
Have changed the valve springs for a much lighter setup, PSI beehive springs and Manley tool steel retainers, this after about 12K miles on the engine. The Comp roller noses over at 6K, the beehives can't help that. We do have a 350 SBC running with a Howard .600" lift hyd on GM rollers, beehives, and it's still making power to 7K, the beehives I attribute to that.

Couple things to check with the AFRs. The retainers are large, Comp Pro Magnum rockers didn't have the necessary rocker to retainer clearance (.050"), the Crane Golds have plenty of clearance. Because the intake valve is larger the I and E valves are moved apart, this makes rocker to valve stem alignment more critical, a PITA finding the compromise. Also pay attention to getting the correct length pushrod for your combo, it won't be an off the shelf item.

That doesn't cover all the 427 SBC quarks I found but should help with your build. I would make sure your builder is aware of them. Have read every piece of info I could find on this build and no where have i ever seen the oil pump shaft addressed. When I called Milodon about the pick they sold for the stroker pan they were unaware at that time of it not working on a Dart block, "just turn it so it doesn't hit" was their answer. Pitiful.

In another post will hopefully help you with the stickshift part.
Bob
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/12/17 02:16 PM

The T56 install:

One thing for sure is over the past 10 years available swap parts and suppliers for a T56 install have increased tremendously because today this trans is swapped into just about anything you can imagine. 15 years ago when I did my install there were few options. The aftermarket T56 for mechanical linkage, the LT1 trans with it's pull clutch and LS trans which was used primarily behind an LS due to flywheel and hydraulic parts available. All three of these trans use a different depth bellhousing and input shaft length.

My swap was easy when the two piece seal block went in using the aftermarket trans, I had McLeod make me a 20lb, 153 tooth, 2 piece seal, billet flywheel, bolted a 10 3/4" Centerforce DF clutch to it, wrapped it in a Lakewood 15015 scattershield, and used the G-body mech clutch linkage.

Today with the advent of the Magnum T56 which is based on the LS t56 there are numerous flywheel/clutch combos that can be used. Quick Time has stepped up to the plate and offer bellhousings to do any install.
https://holley.com/brands/quick_time/products/drivetrain/bellhousings/bellhousings/

As far as flywheels to use with the 2 piece seal engine I haven't kept up with the available options. I suggest calling McLeod, Centerforce, Ram and see what they offer. I would go with a billet steel, although nodular iron is OK for light duty street use. Lightweight alum wheels should be available but I stayed away from them due to resurfacing issues and wanted something a little heavier to smooth out the idle with bigger cams. That's why a custom 20lb billet was chosen, had it resurfaced when I went with a more aggressive clutch a few years ago.

A far as clutches go your pocket book is the limit. And what you built the car to do will dictate clutch choice. On the street the power of the new engine will toast any street tire you can run, the clutch isn't taxed unless you like to spin the tires at 70 mph in 4th gear. Drag radial tires don't put to much demand on a clutch either on a stick car. But when you put a true slick that sticks hard at the track a weak clutch will show up quickly.
My car is a street car but has made a 100 passes at the track with three different tires. The Centerforce DF was sweet with street tires, worked well with the DR tires but when I went with a Hoosier QTP slick the clutch was changed out for a 10 1/2" Ceramix disc setup, 700 lbft capable. It's very aggressive, chatters in reverse, almost an ON/OFF engagement, difficult to drive on the street, but doesn't slip at the track.

My next clutch will be a twin disc setup. But most suppliers don't recommend them for drag racing, so i need to get that out of my system before installing one. Not sure why that is but would think it has something to do with the floater plate and abusing it. Most people that do a twin are looking for very good bite with high power engines and low pedal pressure on the street driven car. Top of the line twins with the flywheel included can be WELL over a grand, close to 1500.
McLeod makes an nice RST for reasonable (under 800) that would work with my existing flywheel, my first choice for a new clutch.

A bigger clutch disc isn't the answer on a T56 to get more bite. A lesson learned by talking with engineers at Rockalnd Standard Gear was about disc spin down. The job of the trans synchros is to match the speed of the input shaft to the speed of the trans internals. A very large disc spinning at engine rpm needs to be slowed down when the clutch is disengaged to upshift,. A smaller disc requires less effort to slow. This is why you see twins with small discs, some under 9" today. Just food for thought.
Bob
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/12/17 10:42 PM

First of all I'd like to thank you mmc427ss for continuing to offer up your very valuable advice and time. My hats off to you sir.

Ok so heres the block that is in that wooden crate in that link I posted a couple posts back. Its a "Speedmaster" and I thought the guy that sold that to me told me that it was an "Australian" manufacture but I know it got shipped out of California so I guess I'm not sure of much about its origin. [img]https://imgflip.com/i/1qrvf2[/img] They did the machine work to clearance for the rods at the cam tunnel. Heres a link to Speedmasters website and the block I got. https://speedmaster79.com/pce286104...025-aluminium-engine-block-usa-machined/ Additionally they ran it out to 4.120 because my builder wanted to finish the last little bit off. My builder https://www.facebook.com/Ash-Racing-Components-162825677075929/ He says he's built a bunch of these aluminum SBC 427's and that along with the fact that he built the 348ci sbf that pushed my friend Dan Aleshire to 231mph and change garnering him the Bonneville speedway C gas roadster world record I'm thinking the guy (Ed Ash) has several tricks that most engine builders arent even aware of. I actually ended up with Mahle pistons and couldnt help myself and got AFR 220's (open chamber) rather than the 210's.I told the engine seller what I was going to get and he said with the piston/head combination I should be at 10.8:1. I'm still thinking with the dual plane 7501 manifold its going to make plenty of torque. I talked to Mike Jones, he's a cam grinder and he's gonna grind me up a cam. I told him I wanted something that could idle all day without loading up, leave me with plenty of vacuum for my brakes and I wanted as much torque as I could get as low as I can get it. I obviously had to fill out that spec sheet he required to determine which grind would work best for my application. In our conversation he stated it would be making torque right off of idle and would stop at about 4500. Perfect in my opinion for a street car. I doubt this car will ever see a dragstrip but I do intend to run it around PIR a couple of times to dial in the suspension for street use. As I stated in a previous post I got Scorpions 1.6 rockers and I guess we'll have to be aware of the clearance issue you mentioned, you're not the first person I've heard that from.

I saw that pan you were talking about, with only half the bolts, I certainly aint goin that route. I did however purchase a high volume melling pump, MV55 I believe it is and the pan is one of the items I'm still short before I can send the engine to the builder. Things got slow when I hurt my arm and the "nickels and dimes" on this motor are more like $500 and $1000. I'm sure you're aware that the pan, custom pick up and windage tray is going to land right there at about $500. On that subject, what do you think about a crank scraper too huh?

For tires I got a brand new set of what came stock on the C4 Corvettes. Its a Goodyear runflat in 17". 285/40/17's for the rear and 255/45/17 for the front. They might be a little big, hope that wasnt a mistake. I opted for 17's because of the stiffer sidewalls as opposed to the 15" balloons. Still havent settled on a wheel. I like the look of a D hole street lock but I'm not finding anything with my bolt pattern in 17. Its got the ford 9" in it but I got Dutchman axles in the factory chevy bolt pattern. And I did get the rear disc brake kit for that also. They're installed.

So and the rest of the stuff I mentioned, I got in what I considered to be a screamin deal. Others said I was buying a load of crap and yes there was some crap in there but I got; 7 3970010 blocks at varying bores sizes, one of them a complete core motor, another a counter replacement 350 with the 1182 forged crank. The melling oil pump (nib), used Holley 870 Avenger, those Crower Enduro II 1.52 stainless full rollers, a set of Comp Cams lightweight pushrods, a DUI distributor, stud girdles, windage tray, valley pans (?) 2 double roller timing sets (new) and a bunch of stuff I'm forgetting for $850. I've recouped most of my money by selling off those blocks.

At this point I'm just about ready to get back to work after the bicep distal tendon tear and am anxious to make this happen. Before that I was expecting to have this together by now. Thank you again sir for your help and advice.
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/13/17 12:15 AM

Sorry, forgot that was the block you have. Not familiar with it but looked at the specs and appears to have the necessary goodies. The thing I'm envious of is the fact it's almost a 100 lbs lighter than the Dart iron block.

Milodon stroker pan, #30908, is a good fit for the G crossmember, has a windage tray that attaches to the pan rather than on main cap studs, a tall oil filter can be used, mini starter fits nicely. I did have to relocate the drain on the pan from the rear to the side, it would have dumped right onto the blocksaver plate of the Lakewood shield. Canton makes a nice road race pan which I considered, but may have limitations on filter and starters.

Don't interpret me as bashing your builder, that didn't happen, I wouldn't do that to any builder I have no personal experience with. Just know from doing my build there are numerous things to pay attention too, and have talked to Shafiroff and Mitchel when I was researching my build.

When i bought my AFR 210 the next jump was to the 227s, that was 10 years ago. Today AFR has even better designs and flow, more choices. The large cc, 76cc chambers, almost a zero deck, .040 gaskets and 10 cc reliefs got me to 10.1. This allows me a surface cleanup which keeps compression low enough for pump premium. As long as we have these exotic super cars flooding the market 93 will remain available, so we're good for quality fuels for some time yet. Here 93 Sunoco is over $3.25 today, I remember when it was a buck more expensive. Ouch!

I do run a knock retard system on my engine, It's an older version of the J&S Safeguard with adjustable sensitivity and individual cyl retard (not batch retard), rev limiter, and also runs the ignition system. A dist is used that has centrifugal and vac advance, but only a pickup inside, the J&S fires the coil off the dist pickup. Nice setup, expensive but never have detonation. http://www.jandssafeguard.com/index.html

For intakes and carb it's personal choice and application. I run a Weiand 7525, an old single plane with EGR, a necessity were I live. It flows very good, fits easily under the hood with a stock like air cleaner and is close to a Victor Jr performance. Peak torque on my build is right around 4500 also. Was never looking for a killer hp build, a flat torque curve was more important.
For a carb an 800 cfm Qjet with a dozen mods gets the job done, and is a great street carb.
Bob
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/13/17 05:20 AM

"The thing I'm envious of is the fact it's almost a 100 lbs lighter than the Dart iron block."

As you are aware, the more weight you can get out of the front the better you can make a car handle (generally). I want this car to handle so well no one even understands how (lofty goal huh?) In that effort I've got all aluminum up there. Aluminum water pump, core support, carb, accessory brackets, heads (obviously), block, getting rid of the AC, moving the battery to the trunk, lightweight high torque starter. I figure I'll be shedding around 200 pounds forward of center................

I'm looking into those coil over front A arms with the deeper upper pocket so I wont have to sacrifice to much ride quality but that will come later after I get this mill and transmission taken care of and installed.

What are you doing for exhaust and how loud are you Bob?

Russ
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/13/17 09:18 PM

Checked the part# on my rods. CRS6000BST20. I cant seem to find a part# that matches this, in the USA. Odd that the only ones I can find with my part# are for sale in Australia. From what I can see the only difference between your part and mine is 10 grams. So, lol, I'm saving 3 more ounces in my block (635 VS 645)
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/14/17 12:51 AM

Have not had a set of those rods in my hands to know how they get additional clearance, but appears they have changed something. Don't think they were available when i did my build. My rods are the CRS6000B3D.

Yep I understand getting weight off the front end is a good thing, But I find A/C, cruise a necessity. I consider my build a touring car, not a Pro Touring build. When i started this build more than 10 years ago the LS7 was just released in crate form, it was my first choice but just couldn't justify the 15K to have it sitting under the hood ready to fire up. It was financially easier to hide spending a couple grand at a time, I'm married, still.

As I mentioned earlier where I live in PA, a strict emissions state especially when I did the build required a visual to pass. So the exhaust system needed to comply back then. Emissions compliant headers, and a catback system. Hooker 2050 headers, a custom made crossover pipe, a 3" test pipe and a sweet mandrel bent stainless cat back exhaust. It actually flows very well and doesn't hurt power until about the same time the cam runs out of breath. Had it on the chassis dyno several years ago, 428/434 at the wheels, not bad for a single exhaust truck engine, Loud, no, but enough noise to keep the windows up when cruising at speed.
Bob

Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/15/17 12:03 AM

Doesnt one side of that Hooker loop to the outside of the frame? I cant have that. I'm building this thing to turn. And ditto on the money thing. Thats kinda why I went the way I did on that T56. It was either drop big coin all at once on the T56 with the gear set I wanted or go this route. And like I say I have a friend that could probably do that whole rebuild in a couple hours.

So far as the air conditioning, I used that speed calculator on the web. 26" tire, 3.73 rear end, .50 final drive, 4500rpm...............

Anyone know what the wind chill factor is at 185mph, rofl...........

Anyone wanna guess what the first part would be to fly off that car if I ever tried taking it there? I mean I'm sure this thing will have the power to get it there but uh........
Posted By: mmc427ss

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/15/17 05:39 PM

The hooker's that go outside the frame are the 2242, not a choice for a car that needs to turn.

The 2050s are shorties that have a crossover pipe that runs from the left over to the right side common collector. Not what you would call a perf header, but are required if you need to remain emissions compliant. They have a CARB certification. But they are now discontinued, no longer available but used.

Not a fan of most Hookers, Hedman makes a better header for the G install. It's said they fit well and perform well.
http://www.hedman.com/product-detail/65218

Here's another choice. http://www.schoenfeldheaders.com/street-stock.html Various pipe,. collector choices.
Bob
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 06/19/17 05:12 AM

Thank you for the info on that. I've seen those schoenfelds and actually those were what I was going to go with at this point. So but let me ask you this. Whats up with those mid length headers? Seems to me they should flow pretty well by design and you could probably get your tubes up a little. I've got 3" all the way to the back and thats a pretty big tube. Seems to me if they centered in the same location as say a 2" or 2 1/2" you'd still have an albeit little more tube closer to the ground. My point is that again albeit it only 1/4" lower it just seems if you got middys you could run your exhaust tube up slightly higher. I've seen too many "flat spotted" headers at the tube/collector area there.
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 08/04/18 08:33 PM

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, I didnt have a balancer/dampner and the builder just threw that on as a placeholder I guess. Goin with the ATI

https://imgflip.com/i/28ytzu
Posted By: Bealzybub

Re: T56 C'mon now - 08/30/19 02:44 AM

Its in, it runs !!!!!!!
Posted By: Hunter79764

Re: T56 C'mon now - 09/06/19 08:20 PM

That's the good kind of thread resurrection!
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